Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / #96 Jesus, Christianity, and Anti-Semitism

Transcript

#96 Jesus, Christianity, and Anti-Semitism · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

0:02
Hey, everyone.
0:03
Tim Wright here.
0:18
SPEAKER_02: along with John Burgess for the Deep Grace Diving Podcast.
0:23
SPEAKER_02: And we're glad to have you with us today.
0:25
SPEAKER_02: Terry was going to be joining us, but she got a work call.
0:29
SPEAKER_02: So we're going to let her do that.
0:31
SPEAKER_02: That's pretty important if she has a chance to make some money.
0:34
SPEAKER_02: And we have a special guest with us today.
0:36
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to introduce him to you in just a moment.
0:38
SPEAKER_02: Really excited to have him with us.
0:40
We're taking a little break from our series on the Lord's
0:44
Prayer and looking at a
0:46
SPEAKER_02: really,
0:46
SPEAKER_02: really important topic.
0:48
SPEAKER_02: for all of us.
0:50
SPEAKER_02: And we want to kind of look at it,
0:51
SPEAKER_02: particularly from the viewpoint of Christianity and the Bible and Jesus,
0:56
SPEAKER_02: who,
0:57
SPEAKER_02: of course,
0:57
SPEAKER_02: was Jewish.
0:58
SPEAKER_02: And we're looking at anti-Semitism.
1:01
SPEAKER_02: And,
1:03
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:03
SPEAKER_02: you see it once in a while on the news,
1:05
but I don't think we're really cognizant of the fact that
1:07
anti-Semitism has been
1:09
SPEAKER_02: skyrocketing in the United States of America over the last several years,
1:13
SPEAKER_02: and not just in the United States of America,
1:15
SPEAKER_02: but in Europe as well.
1:17
And so it's a really important issue and one that we,
1:21
I think,
1:21
want to talk about.
1:24
SPEAKER_02: We are recording today.
1:25
SPEAKER_02: Today,
1:26
SPEAKER_02: as we record,
1:26
SPEAKER_02: it is Maundy Thursday,
1:29
which is the day in Holy Week where we reflect on the Last
1:33
Supper of Jesus,
1:34
SPEAKER_02: the night when he was betrayed.
1:36
SPEAKER_02: Tomorrow is Good Friday, the day that Jesus was crucified.
1:40
SPEAKER_02: And sometimes you will hear people say, the Jews killed Jesus.
1:45
SPEAKER_02: And as soon as you hear that, you are on the road to anti-Semitism.
1:50
So it's really important for us as Christian people to have
1:54
this conversation
1:55
SPEAKER_02: because we don't want to be the leading edge of anti-Semitism.
1:58
SPEAKER_02: We want to be there with our Jewish friends standing against this.
2:02
SPEAKER_02: So, John, we're going to talk a bit about this today.
2:06
SPEAKER_02: And we've got my good friend, Dr. Michael Gurian.
2:08
SPEAKER_02: Michael and I have been friends and work partners.
2:12
SPEAKER_02: We do a podcast together called the Wonder Parenting Podcast.
2:16
SPEAKER_02: We've written stuff together.
2:19
SPEAKER_02: And we've just become really close friends.
2:21
SPEAKER_02: Michael is Jewish, both by birth and by faith.
2:25
And he and I have had a chance to talk about anti-Semitism on
2:28
our Wonder Parenting podcast.
2:29
SPEAKER_02: And I thought it would be really good to bring him into this one.
2:33
SPEAKER_02: To get his perspective,
2:36
SPEAKER_02: what you're going to appreciate about Michael is that he's Jewish,
2:40
SPEAKER_02: and yet he's a guy who's still very,
2:42
very open to other faiths and is not antagonistic at all toward
2:47
Christianity,
2:48
SPEAKER_02: has worshiped with us several times when we had him speak.
2:51
So he's got a really good perspective,
2:53
but he has experienced anti-Semitism in his own life.
2:56
SPEAKER_02: So Michael Gurian, welcome to the program, the Deep Grace Diving Podcast.
3:00
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
3:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
3:02
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
3:03
SPEAKER_01: I'm thrilled.
3:04
SPEAKER_01: I've been anticipating this.
3:05
SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for having me.
3:07
SPEAKER_03: You know,
3:07
SPEAKER_03: Michael,
3:07
you have to be an especially good friend to come on the podcast
3:10
and represent all
3:12
SPEAKER_03: of Judaism,
3:14
SPEAKER_03: all of the,
3:15
SPEAKER_03: you know,
3:15
SPEAKER_03: explain anti-Semitism to Christians and all the listeners.
3:18
SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's really kind of a big ask.
3:21
SPEAKER_03: So we're so glad that you're that kind of a friend.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
3:26
SPEAKER_01: Oh, thank you.
3:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm not a rabbi.
3:27
SPEAKER_01: I always say I'm not a rabbi, but I am Jewish.
3:31
SPEAKER_02: So to just to give some stark contrast,
3:35
SPEAKER_02: I've been to Michael's synagogue up in Spokane a couple of times.
3:41
SPEAKER_02: And every time I'm there,
3:43
SPEAKER_02: they have an armed police guard at their worship because of threats and
3:50
SPEAKER_02: anti-Semitism.
3:51
SPEAKER_02: And of course,
3:52
we've seen recently some really devastating things happening in
3:55
synagogues in
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SPEAKER_02: various parts of the country.
3:58
SPEAKER_02: Michael,
3:58
SPEAKER_02: this is a reality that your people,
4:01
SPEAKER_02: when I say your people,
4:02
SPEAKER_02: I mean people of Jewish faith and people of Jewish birth,
4:06
SPEAKER_02: have dealt with for a long,
4:08
SPEAKER_02: long time.
4:09
SPEAKER_02: Give us just a little perspective.
4:11
SPEAKER_02: As a Jewish man, you've experienced anti-Semitism in your own life.
4:18
You're certainly aware of what's going on when you go to the
4:21
synagogue every time you go.
4:23
SPEAKER_02: Wherever you want to start,
4:25
just tell us a little bit about your story and your experiences
4:28
with anti-Semitism
4:29
SPEAKER_02: and what you're seeing happening in the country right now.
4:33
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
4:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:36
SPEAKER_01: So when I was a kid,
4:39
SPEAKER_01: like Laramie,
4:40
SPEAKER_01: Wyoming,
4:40
SPEAKER_01: for instance,
4:41
is one time when the guys got me and one of them put like
4:49
pliers in my nose and was
4:50
SPEAKER_01: pulling out my nose and going,
4:52
SPEAKER_01: does that Jew nose grow?
4:54
SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, that kind of stuff.
4:56
SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, during childhood, you as a
4:59
SPEAKER_01: young, I'm 68.
5:01
SPEAKER_01: So I'm baby boomer.
5:02
SPEAKER_01: So I'm growing up, you know, 60s, 70s, born 1958.
5:06
SPEAKER_01: So it's like, it definitely in certain places was there.
5:10
SPEAKER_01: And as a kid, I experienced it.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, you get used to it.
5:14
SPEAKER_01: And you're just like, okay.
5:17
SPEAKER_01: Now,
5:17
SPEAKER_01: as an adult,
5:18
SPEAKER_01: and then I went to Gonzaga University,
5:20
SPEAKER_01: Jesuit,
5:20
SPEAKER_01: Catholic Jesuit University,
5:22
SPEAKER_01: you know,
5:23
SPEAKER_01: didn't really experience it there didn't,
5:26
SPEAKER_01: as an adult did not really experience much.
5:29
anti-Semitism in America you know and my kids I have two
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daughters my kids grew up
5:35
um did they experience only a little people would oh you're
5:39
Jewish and then we
5:41
would hear you know the Jews killed Jesus and we would always
5:43
have to say okay well
5:44
that's not actually factual but we get why you're saying that
5:47
you've seen that in
5:48
SPEAKER_01: movies and you know and I had to have a conversation
5:51
but didn't experience anything until a couple of times my girls
5:57
would come home and
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SPEAKER_01: they would say,
5:59
SPEAKER_01: okay,
6:00
SPEAKER_01: so we heard this conversation over here and,
6:04
SPEAKER_01: you know,
6:04
SPEAKER_01: around with the Jews killed Jesus.
6:06
SPEAKER_01: And it was around that time.
6:07
SPEAKER_01: So we're now talking about 20 years ago, 18,
6:11
17,
6:11
18 years ago,
6:12
when my synagogue then had to start having the armed guard.
6:16
SPEAKER_01: So off-duty police were paying them.
6:20
SPEAKER_01: And the budget, and a synagogue has kids.
6:24
The idea for the synagogue was,
6:25
okay,
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whenever there are gonna be kids here,
6:27
SPEAKER_01: We got to have guards.
6:29
SPEAKER_01: That's sort of how to put a boundary on it,
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SPEAKER_01: because otherwise it would just be you couldn't pay for it.
6:33
SPEAKER_01: Right.
6:33
SPEAKER_01: So so that's Wednesday for Hebrew school,
6:36
SPEAKER_01: you know,
6:37
SPEAKER_01: and then that's Friday night for service at Saturday and that Sunday.
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SPEAKER_01: So a massive cost.
6:43
SPEAKER_01: And and it happened because.
6:46
Because of some things that were going on with kids in school,
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like with my kids.
6:51
And then also because then someone during the night came and
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painted a swastika on
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SPEAKER_01: the tower,
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SPEAKER_01: this little tower of our synagogue,
6:59
SPEAKER_01: you know,
6:59
SPEAKER_01: put a swastika there.
7:00
SPEAKER_01: And it was like, okay, and this is going on.
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SPEAKER_01: This started about 15, 20 years ago all over the country.
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SPEAKER_01: Synagogues were starting to hire folks to guard them.
7:12
SPEAKER_01: Now,
7:13
SPEAKER_01: jump to now,
7:13
SPEAKER_01: quick answer to the question is,
7:15
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
7:15
SPEAKER_01: we're the last two to three years,
7:17
SPEAKER_01: a massive increase.
7:18
SPEAKER_01: And of course,
7:20
SPEAKER_01: the October 7th attack by Hamas on the Jews in Israel,
7:25
SPEAKER_01: right,
7:25
SPEAKER_01: is a precipitating event for all of this kind of worldwide.
7:29
SPEAKER_01: And then the extreme, I mean, I think social media is a big problem here.
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SPEAKER_01: The extreme response from people on, you know, to especially sort of
7:39
SPEAKER_01: I don't know what we would categorize,
7:41
SPEAKER_01: but very left or whatever it was,
7:43
SPEAKER_01: just weird extreme responses,
7:45
SPEAKER_01: you know,
7:46
SPEAKER_01: about how well Hamas is our hero and Israel's genocidal and all that.
7:50
SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, that spreads through and then that's into Europe.
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SPEAKER_01: And so they got a lot of it there.
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And I think that's probably,
7:57
you know,
7:58
two to three years ago is when all of this ratcheted up.
8:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:03
SPEAKER_02: And of course,
8:03
now Israel and the United States of America have launched a war
8:07
against Iran,
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SPEAKER_02: which is extremely controversial,
8:09
SPEAKER_02: which didn't affect the situation at all.
8:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, people don't realize.
8:14
SPEAKER_01: I just want to say one quick thing.
8:15
SPEAKER_01: People don't realize that Israel has been in a war with Iran.
8:20
SPEAKER_01: for decades really.
8:23
SPEAKER_01: And so they see this as, oh my gosh, what Israel just did.
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SPEAKER_01: And of course the US is doing it too.
8:28
SPEAKER_01: And the Arab countries too, they're all together.
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SPEAKER_01: But people don't realize they've been in this war for decades.
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SPEAKER_01: This is something that was going to happen.
8:39
SPEAKER_01: Even if you don't agree with it,
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Israel is going to have to do this because they're under such
8:44
threat from Iran.
8:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
8:47
To the best of your knowledge,
8:49
give us sort of some insight,
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at least from your perspective.
8:53
SPEAKER_02: Why the Jews?
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What is it about the Jewish people that people just are
9:01
hell-bent on harassing you,
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SPEAKER_02: abusing,
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SPEAKER_02: making fun of?
9:06
SPEAKER_03: And Michael, you only have to talk to like the last 4,000 years.
9:09
SPEAKER_03: So, you know, it's kind of roughly that time period.
9:12
SPEAKER_01: That'd be fine.
9:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:14
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think there's a lot of scholarship on this.
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SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of, I mean, so I think it's a number of things.
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SPEAKER_01: And,
9:21
and I'm going to give my perspective as a Jew who has been
9:24
forced to study it his
9:26
SPEAKER_01: whole life.
9:26
SPEAKER_01: Right.
9:27
SPEAKER_01: But I'm not a scholar,
9:28
SPEAKER_01: but I think,
9:29
SPEAKER_01: I think,
9:30
SPEAKER_01: or a Jewish scholar,
9:31
SPEAKER_01: the,
9:32
SPEAKER_01: the Jews killed Jesus is a big,
9:34
SPEAKER_01: one big piece.
9:35
SPEAKER_01: Right.
9:36
The constant pounding into certain populations that the Jews
9:39
killed Jesus.
9:40
SPEAKER_01: So that that can build in some anti-Semitism then,
9:45
SPEAKER_01: even though,
9:46
SPEAKER_01: you know,
9:46
SPEAKER_01: the three of us on this call know that that's not factual.
9:48
SPEAKER_01: But.
9:51
SPEAKER_01: but there were Jews there, you know, and Jesus did die.
9:54
SPEAKER_01: And, and so that I think is one.
9:57
SPEAKER_01: The other one is I think that the Jews are associated with success,
10:03
SPEAKER_01: especially in finance and,
10:06
SPEAKER_01: you know,
10:06
SPEAKER_01: which was required,
10:08
SPEAKER_01: right.
10:09
SPEAKER_01: Because of usury rules in Christianity.
10:12
SPEAKER_01: And so Jews became adept, right.
10:16
I mean,
10:16
Jews were,
10:17
were housing the money and they were working with the money.
10:19
SPEAKER_01: And I think,
10:20
SPEAKER_01: I think that, and that was allowed for Jews, right?
10:24
And so,
10:25
you know,
10:25
I would call it also that success piece,
10:28
like Jews are historically driven.
10:30
SPEAKER_01: There are so, there are really so few Jews.
10:32
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's only 17 million I think on earth right now.
10:36
SPEAKER_01: Jews are just really driven.
10:38
We're raised to be driven to succeed in finance,
10:44
to become doctors,
10:45
become lawyers.
10:45
SPEAKER_01: All those stereotypes people have,
10:47
we are trained from very young that we are going to do that and
10:52
that that's how
10:52
SPEAKER_01: we're going to survive.
10:54
And if we don't become successes,
10:56
we won't survive because Jews have been harmed for so long.
11:01
SPEAKER_01: So then I think the success
11:05
SPEAKER_01: carries its own thing.
11:06
SPEAKER_01: So then people stereotype,
11:08
SPEAKER_01: you know,
11:08
SPEAKER_01: the Jewish doctor or the Jewish lawyer or the Jewish banker,
11:12
SPEAKER_01: you know,
11:12
SPEAKER_01: and especially that,
11:13
SPEAKER_01: the Jewish banker.
11:14
So then I think that all that stereotyping and scapegoating or
11:19
stereotyping creates it.
11:20
SPEAKER_01: And then I think the scapegoating,
11:22
SPEAKER_01: which,
11:23
SPEAKER_01: you know,
11:23
SPEAKER_01: is biblical for the Old Testament and the,
11:25
SPEAKER_01: you know,
11:25
SPEAKER_01: we all,
11:26
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
11:28
SPEAKER_01: people in human evolution,
11:30
SPEAKER_01: unfortunately,
11:31
SPEAKER_01: it appears that human beings
11:34
um are you know wired at a kind of primitive level to scapegoat
11:39
and to blame and
11:40
then and that's a way they process the pain they're in and um
11:45
and so you put
11:47
together these thousands of years of oh the jews killed jesus
11:50
and then the jews are
11:51
you know they have on it's unfair for them they're they have
11:54
everything we have
11:55
SPEAKER_01: nothing and
11:56
SPEAKER_01: And then,
11:57
SPEAKER_01: you know,
11:58
SPEAKER_01: and then you've got to scapegoat someone,
12:00
SPEAKER_01: and it's an unfortunate part of the human brain.
12:03
SPEAKER_01: They got to scapegoat.
12:05
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, obviously Asians can get scapegoated.
12:09
SPEAKER_01: That happens.
12:10
SPEAKER_01: Certain populations are going to get scapegoated.
12:13
SPEAKER_01: There are times when Christians have been scapegoated.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: But I think that the Jews are a long-term scapegoat.
12:19
SPEAKER_01: So when something is going wrong, then someone finds...
12:23
SPEAKER_01: you know, well, look at that Jew.
12:26
SPEAKER_01: He's controlling it.
12:27
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, Israel, of course, is scapegoated quite a bit.
12:32
SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, Jews are scapegoated.
12:34
SPEAKER_01: So I think there are other reasons, but I think we put all that together.
12:38
SPEAKER_01: You know,
12:38
SPEAKER_01: Tim,
12:38
SPEAKER_01: you and I have talked about my particular theory,
12:41
SPEAKER_01: which is probably incorrect,
12:42
SPEAKER_01: but my particular theory is the Jews,
12:44
there's something subconscious or unconscious going on with the
12:48
Jews having the
12:49
SPEAKER_01: been the ones who brought monotheism in.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: And I think that there's something there, but I can't prove it.
12:59
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
13:01
SPEAKER_02: As you were talking,
13:01
one of the thoughts that came to me was the Jewish people are
13:07
often seen as,
13:08
SPEAKER_02: and this is not necessarily meant to be derogatory,
13:11
a peculiar people because of your monotheism and because of the
13:16
strong core values
13:17
SPEAKER_02: that
13:19
SPEAKER_02: hold and hold the Jewish people together.
13:24
So we know throughout history when the Persians came in or the
13:29
Assyrians or
13:29
SPEAKER_02: whatever,
13:30
SPEAKER_02: the Romans came in,
13:32
there was something about the Jewish ethic of faith and
13:37
monotheism and their
13:39
SPEAKER_02: practices that
13:41
That these nations realize,
13:42
well,
13:42
we can control them,
13:43
but only to a certain point.
13:45
SPEAKER_02: We've got to allow them to be this peculiar people.
13:48
And if we start messing with their eating laws and we start
13:51
messing with the way
13:53
SPEAKER_02: that they dress and interact,
13:57
SPEAKER_02: we aren't going to be able to control that.
13:59
SPEAKER_02: So they were allowed a certain amount of freedom.
14:01
Because the Jewish people are so peculiar in the good sense of
14:07
the word that they
14:08
SPEAKER_02: are really committed to this monotheistic,
14:12
SPEAKER_02: chosen,
14:12
SPEAKER_02: set-apart people.
14:14
SPEAKER_02: And I think you're right.
14:15
SPEAKER_02: I think that's threatening to a lot of folks.
14:20
SPEAKER_02: And because you're a smaller group of people, it's just easy.
14:28
SPEAKER_02: to pick on in minority people, regardless of Jewish or whatever.
14:33
SPEAKER_02: And of course we often hear that, is it George Soros?
14:37
Is that the guy people always are talking about the big Jewish
14:41
conspiracy,
14:42
SPEAKER_02: the behind all the stuff happening in the United States of America,
14:45
SPEAKER_02: they're running the elections.
14:47
SPEAKER_02: And as soon as you say something like George Soros,
14:50
Your anti-Semitism radar better go up fast because they are
14:56
speaking in code to say
14:58
SPEAKER_02: the Jews are trying to take over the United States of America.
15:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, anti-Semitism in a sense is a conspiracy theory.
15:05
SPEAKER_01: It's just a massive conspiracy theory.
15:08
SPEAKER_01: And we want to say most Christians are not anti-Semitic.
15:13
SPEAKER_01: I think most people are not.
15:14
SPEAKER_01: But it's enough.
15:16
SPEAKER_01: And they've got a conspiracy theory in their head and they buy into it.
15:19
SPEAKER_01: And then man, that's it lights out.
15:22
SPEAKER_01: And you're right.
15:22
SPEAKER_01: People talk about the Jews as the chosen people.
15:25
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
15:25
So the interesting thing is I know there's the words that have
15:28
been translated from
15:29
SPEAKER_01: the old Testament that say chosen,
15:30
SPEAKER_01: but,
15:31
SPEAKER_01: and I don't remember now,
15:31
SPEAKER_01: Tim,
15:32
SPEAKER_01: you might know better,
15:32
SPEAKER_01: but actually there's a better translation for that word because Jews,
15:36
SPEAKER_01: we spend no time in our services talking about it being a chosen people.
15:41
SPEAKER_01: We look at each other and go, what?
15:44
SPEAKER_01: You know, we're chosen, but I,
15:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:47
SPEAKER_01: OK.
15:47
SPEAKER_01: They were chosen to fight against Pharaoh.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: That was that way back.
15:52
SPEAKER_01: Right.
15:53
SPEAKER_01: Whatever that was, two, three, four thousand years ago.
15:55
Well,
15:55
four or five thousand years ago,
15:56
whenever it was,
15:57
they were chosen for that.
15:58
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
15:59
SPEAKER_01: But it's not something Jews do.
16:02
It's other people do this chosen thing and and then impose it
16:07
on the Jews.
16:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
16:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
16:11
SPEAKER_02: I grew up in a suburb called St.
16:14
Louis Park,
16:14
Minnesota,
16:16
that was 30 to 40 percent Jewish people population.
16:20
SPEAKER_02: So it was nicknamed St.
16:22
SPEAKER_02: Jewish Park or Hebrew Heights and Little Israel.
16:26
SPEAKER_02: And I had, you know, almost all of my friends were Jewish.
16:31
SPEAKER_02: And so when I moved to Phoenix,
16:32
SPEAKER_02: Arizona,
16:33
SPEAKER_02: and I would run into people who'd never met a Jewish person before,
16:36
SPEAKER_02: it was just shocking to me.
16:39
SPEAKER_02: because you're right, it's such a small population.
16:43
SPEAKER_02: And John,
16:43
SPEAKER_02: you know,
16:44
SPEAKER_02: in the Air Force and the places you've worked,
16:47
SPEAKER_02: have you met many Jewish people?
16:50
Yeah,
16:50
you know,
16:51
I was just kind of thinking through what you guys were saying.
16:54
SPEAKER_03: Certainly I have, but I don't really catalog that.
16:57
SPEAKER_03: And I think that the,
16:59
SPEAKER_03: you know,
17:00
SPEAKER_03: the career in the military,
17:01
SPEAKER_03: the military,
17:02
SPEAKER_03: at least in America,
17:04
SPEAKER_03: is such a melting pot.
17:05
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
17:06
SPEAKER_03: every two to three years,
17:08
you're forced to get a new supervisor and new subordinates in a
17:13
new location.
17:14
And you just have to kind of figure out how you're going to
17:17
accomplish the mission with that
17:22
SPEAKER_03: pot of different kinds of people.
17:23
SPEAKER_03: And so,
17:24
SPEAKER_03: you know,
17:25
SPEAKER_03: I,
17:25
I certainly had friends that I didn't even realize was Jewish
17:28
for a while because
17:29
SPEAKER_03: it just didn't come up.
17:31
SPEAKER_03: And so I think,
17:32
SPEAKER_03: I think about the,
17:33
SPEAKER_03: some of the stuff you're saying,
17:34
SPEAKER_03: Michael,
17:34
SPEAKER_03: and I think this is kind of my first question for you is if you take,
17:39
SPEAKER_03: I'm really interested about this.
17:40
SPEAKER_03: Let's starting from the time point of the Hamas attack and
17:44
SPEAKER_03: and this huge increase in antisemitism that we've seen in America.
17:48
SPEAKER_03: And I think for me,
17:50
SPEAKER_03: I take out the celebrity voices,
17:54
SPEAKER_03: the people that have no idea what they're talking about.
17:57
SPEAKER_03: And I think we saw this, you know, this...
18:01
um outlaying of support for israel when that happened and then
18:05
we saw you know a
18:06
bunch of save palestine stuff coming out and and i don't want
18:10
to get too far into
18:11
that because we could do 12 podcasts just on that event but if
18:14
you take out the
18:15
SPEAKER_03: voices where i look at people i'm like look
18:18
SPEAKER_03: you're a young celebrity.
18:20
SPEAKER_03: You're pretending to be someone else in a movie.
18:22
SPEAKER_03: And now you've decided that you have this figured out and you don't.
18:25
SPEAKER_03: So if I exclude those people and I just look at like,
18:29
SPEAKER_03: for instance,
18:30
SPEAKER_03: my,
18:30
SPEAKER_03: my,
18:31
SPEAKER_03: uh,
18:32
SPEAKER_03: uh,
18:32
SPEAKER_03: experience,
18:33
SPEAKER_03: I think in the military is some like other people where,
18:36
SPEAKER_03: uh,
18:37
SPEAKER_03: I didn't,
18:38
SPEAKER_03: I never saw antisemitism.
18:40
SPEAKER_03: I Jews killed Jesus.
18:42
SPEAKER_03: Like that is never a phrase that even entered my brain.
18:45
SPEAKER_03: Really.
18:46
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I can't say I never heard it, but, uh,
18:48
SPEAKER_03: It's just so nonsensical, it doesn't mean anything to me.
18:52
And my church here in Colorado has had an armed guard at every
18:55
service and every
18:57
SPEAKER_03: teaching Wednesday night.
18:58
SPEAKER_03: And so I have a different experience.
19:02
SPEAKER_03: So my question to you is, what do I need to know?
19:06
SPEAKER_03: Like, what do I need to know about antisemitism in the last three years?
19:10
How do I need to make that part of my world so I can be part of
19:14
a solution and I
19:15
SPEAKER_03: can realize who my Jewish brothers and sisters,
19:18
SPEAKER_03: kind of the experience that they have?
19:21
SPEAKER_03: Can you make me smart on that?
19:25
SPEAKER_01: What do you need?
19:27
SPEAKER_01: What does a person need to know about antisemitism?
19:31
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
19:31
SPEAKER_03: A person that like,
19:32
SPEAKER_03: that doesn't,
19:33
SPEAKER_03: you know,
19:34
SPEAKER_03: either I'm oblivious to this,
19:36
SPEAKER_03: which is totally possible by the way,
19:38
SPEAKER_03: here on the grace diving podcast,
19:40
SPEAKER_03: or I just haven't been in the circles where I've noticed that,
19:44
SPEAKER_03: that this has been taking place and I don't want to be ignorant.
19:48
SPEAKER_03: So can you help me be less ignorant?
19:50
SPEAKER_03: What do I need to, what do I need to do?
19:53
SPEAKER_01: I guess the thing,
19:54
I guess a thing to do for folks who haven't seen it and a lot
19:58
of people haven't
19:59
SPEAKER_01: seen it.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
19:59
SPEAKER_01: it's not like,
20:00
SPEAKER_01: you know,
20:00
SPEAKER_01: every moment there's antisemitism right next to us every moment.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: So for people who haven't seen it,
20:05
I think the neat thing may be an instructive and interesting
20:08
thing to do would be
20:09
SPEAKER_01: to just,
20:09
SPEAKER_01: you know,
20:10
SPEAKER_01: search out Jewish friends and ask them or Jewish acquaintances,
20:14
SPEAKER_01: you know,
20:14
SPEAKER_01: and just ask them like,
20:16
SPEAKER_01: okay,
20:16
SPEAKER_01: what experience are you having?
20:17
SPEAKER_01: Are you seeing it?
20:18
SPEAKER_01: Is it touching you?
20:20
SPEAKER_01: And and can I support you somehow,
20:23
SPEAKER_01: you know,
20:23
SPEAKER_01: are like,
20:24
SPEAKER_01: are you in need or is your family in need?
20:26
SPEAKER_01: And and and,
20:28
SPEAKER_01: you know,
20:29
SPEAKER_01: I would guess in most cases the Jewish people,
20:31
SPEAKER_01: you know,
20:31
SPEAKER_01: are going to be like like me who are like,
20:34
SPEAKER_01: well,
20:34
SPEAKER_01: not not today.
20:35
SPEAKER_01: I'm not experiencing anti-Semitism today.
20:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:38
And but but here's what I have experienced and I am worried
20:42
about it or something like that.
20:43
So just to I think to talk to people that we know are Jewish
20:47
and to see where
20:48
SPEAKER_01: they're at and and support them is really all you can do.
20:52
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
20:53
SPEAKER_01: unless you have that power,
20:54
SPEAKER_01: like you said,
20:55
SPEAKER_01: and you can go on social media and fight back against it.
20:57
But if not,
20:59
then it's just to support to be with Jewish people and support.
21:04
yeah and i'm you know i'm offended that fellow americans have
21:07
the experience that
21:08
you described when you were young and even the discussions that
21:12
you had with your
21:12
daughters right those are not discussions that i've had with my
21:16
daughters and and
21:18
the fact that you know uh part of my life has certainly been
21:21
spent in the military
21:22
defending those rights and i i i'm offended that americans
21:27
jewish americans and
21:28
SPEAKER_03: non-jewish americans abroad
21:30
have for decades been standing up for those freedoms and rights
21:34
and that they
21:34
aren't applied to across the board to Jewish folks in America
21:38
is offensive to me
21:39
SPEAKER_03: for sure.
21:41
SPEAKER_03: I think my other,
21:43
SPEAKER_03: I'm just gonna,
21:43
SPEAKER_03: I have one more question,
21:44
SPEAKER_03: Tim,
21:44
SPEAKER_03: and then I think I'll turn it back over to you.
21:47
SPEAKER_03: Here's my other question is,
21:49
it seems like it's a very fine line between fair criticism of
21:56
leadership in israel
21:58
and policies in israel and anti-semitism is it is it possible
22:04
for me to be and i
22:06
think the answer is yes but it seems like man i don't know
22:08
where to put my dip my
22:09
toe in how do i be fairly critical of policies and leadership
22:15
and actions by people
22:16
SPEAKER_03: who are jews in israel
22:19
SPEAKER_03: but not be painted as anti-Semitic.
22:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, gotcha.
22:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I, for instance, am critical of Netanyahu.
22:26
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
22:27
SPEAKER_01: and I'm Jewish,
22:27
SPEAKER_01: you know,
22:28
SPEAKER_01: and a lot of my Jewish friends are critical of the leadership,
22:31
SPEAKER_01: as you said,
22:31
SPEAKER_01: of specifically Netanyahu.
22:34
SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, one can do that and not be anti-Semitic.
22:39
SPEAKER_01: Where anti-Semitism is now blending with anti-Israel,
22:44
or anti-zionist when you hear that then you start going oh okay
22:50
um so it's sort of
22:51
it's sort of that we have to listen you know and try to figure
22:55
it out um uh and
22:58
usually usually where i'm hearing it now is when it's the
23:04
oppressor oppressed um uh
23:08
SPEAKER_01: kind of frame is put on to a situation,
23:12
SPEAKER_01: right,
23:12
SPEAKER_01: to the Israel-Palestine situation and the,
23:17
SPEAKER_01: you know,
23:17
SPEAKER_01: Israel-Muslim situation.
23:19
SPEAKER_01: When that paradigm is put on,
23:22
it generally then becomes Israel is a genocidal country and
23:28
it's a genocide,
23:30
SPEAKER_01: you know,
23:32
SPEAKER_01: and it's because
23:35
SPEAKER_01: The folks thinking about it and the way social media is handling it is,
23:39
SPEAKER_01: OK,
23:40
SPEAKER_01: we got here's the oppressor and that oppressor is Israel.
23:45
SPEAKER_01: And here are the victims.
23:47
SPEAKER_01: Here are the oppressed.
23:48
SPEAKER_01: The oppressed are Palestine and the Palestinians.
23:52
SPEAKER_01: And so we're going to leap to the Israels are genocidal.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: The Israelites are genocidal and Jews are genocidal.
24:01
SPEAKER_01: Right.
24:01
SPEAKER_01: I mean, because that's immediately becomes that.
24:04
That's when the verbal attacks on Israel that are coming in
24:11
social media blend with
24:13
SPEAKER_01: anti-Semitism.
24:15
SPEAKER_01: But to criticize Netanyahu, I do not think that's anti-Semitic.
24:19
SPEAKER_01: And about,
24:21
SPEAKER_01: I would say,
24:22
50% to 60% of the Jews I know are critical of Netanyahu because
24:30
he's corrupt and
24:31
SPEAKER_01: all these reasons.
24:33
SPEAKER_01: But Israel is not, you know, an apartheid genocidal country.
24:38
SPEAKER_01: And any of us who have been there and I lived there for a summer,
24:41
SPEAKER_01: you know,
24:41
know that there's a terrible situation going on and that we
24:45
need a two state
24:46
SPEAKER_01: solution.
24:46
SPEAKER_01: Ultimately, we're going to probably need that.
24:49
SPEAKER_01: But no, Israel is not what Israel is not what these people are accusing.
24:54
SPEAKER_01: And so that's when I think it blends with anti-Semitism.
24:58
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
24:59
So the one thing I,
25:00
yes,
25:01
I think I'm following your great thoughts on that.
25:03
SPEAKER_01: Was that confusing enough?
25:04
SPEAKER_03: No, no.
25:05
SPEAKER_03: I would say, well, but it's,
25:08
SPEAKER_03: I think it's easier for you to criticize Netanyahu and not be painted as
25:12
SPEAKER_03: anti-Semitic than it is for me as a Christian to criticize Netanyahu.
25:17
SPEAKER_03: In other words, I think it is not harder for a Jew to be.
25:20
SPEAKER_03: So,
25:21
SPEAKER_03: so,
25:21
SPEAKER_03: you know,
25:22
SPEAKER_03: I think of things like,
25:24
SPEAKER_03: and this gets really complex,
25:25
SPEAKER_03: but like today there is on the anti-defamation league website where,
25:31
SPEAKER_03: There is GE Aerospace is an American company.
25:33
GE Aerospace provides components to the Israeli military that's
25:37
used in the current operation.
25:39
There's a shareholder proposal that says we are going to stop
25:43
selling stuff to
25:44
SPEAKER_03: Israel to be used in this war.
25:47
SPEAKER_03: And we're not going to get into this in this podcast.
25:49
SPEAKER_03: I'm just using this as an example.
25:52
SPEAKER_03: And the Anti-Defamation League is saying,
25:54
SPEAKER_03: wait a minute,
25:56
SPEAKER_03: we can't approve that kind of a proposal because that's...
26:01
SPEAKER_03: smacks of anti-Semitism.
26:03
And I don't like I'm not sure if it smacks of anti-Semitism
26:07
just because it
26:08
SPEAKER_03: involves Israel or if it really is anti-Semitic.
26:12
SPEAKER_03: Like that's the kind of thing that I get tripped up on.
26:15
SPEAKER_01: Right.
26:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:17
SPEAKER_01: No, I see your point.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'd have to read all of that more.
26:20
But I think I understand in theory that a company can its
26:25
shareholders can say we
26:26
SPEAKER_01: don't want to support a war.
26:28
SPEAKER_01: That's going on.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: And so let's not sell this equipment.
26:31
SPEAKER_01: A war that wouldn't be anti-Semitic, I don't think.
26:34
But if in their language,
26:36
if in their language,
26:37
it was we want to stop and I'm not there.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: I haven't seen it.
26:41
SPEAKER_01: Right.
26:41
SPEAKER_01: So just the language said we want to stop supporting the state of Israel,
26:47
SPEAKER_01: you know,
26:48
SPEAKER_01: ever because they're an apartheid state.
26:50
SPEAKER_01: And that's when,
26:52
SPEAKER_01: for me as a Jew,
26:53
SPEAKER_01: and I think for probably all the Jews I know,
26:56
SPEAKER_01: we would go,
26:56
SPEAKER_01: oh,
26:56
SPEAKER_01: okay,
26:57
SPEAKER_01: now that's become,
26:58
SPEAKER_01: that's not a practical matter of,
27:00
SPEAKER_01: you know,
27:01
SPEAKER_01: we don't agree with this particular war.
27:03
That has become,
27:04
okay,
27:05
you know,
27:05
we're not going to support the state of Israel.
27:07
SPEAKER_01: And the thing is, where does that become anti-Semitic?
27:11
SPEAKER_01: Because if you, for Jews, the state of Israel must exist, right?
27:18
SPEAKER_01: we have to have the state of Israel.
27:20
SPEAKER_01: If we don't, then Jews have nowhere, right?
27:24
SPEAKER_01: And we're going to consider that anti-Semitic if someone
27:30
SPEAKER_01: makes that leap and says, okay, the state of Israel should be removed.
27:35
SPEAKER_01: We are going to consider that anti-Semitic.
27:38
SPEAKER_01: Someone else may go, no, I'm not.
27:41
SPEAKER_01: I like the Jews.
27:42
SPEAKER_01: I don't like the state of Israel.
27:44
SPEAKER_01: And then we could have an argument about that.
27:46
SPEAKER_01: But I think for Jews, we're going to say, no, that's anti-Semitic.
27:49
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
27:50
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
27:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
27:51
SPEAKER_02: I think the part of the issue is this.
27:55
SPEAKER_02: I could be, for example, against...
27:58
some policies of the United States of America that,
28:00
but that doesn't mean I'm anti-American.
28:02
SPEAKER_02: Right.
28:03
SPEAKER_02: Right.
28:04
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
28:05
SPEAKER_02: I think part of the, there's so much involved in this issue, right?
28:10
SPEAKER_02: There's a history of Jewish people being persecuted.
28:12
SPEAKER_02: And of course the Holocaust is still within living memory of many people.
28:16
SPEAKER_03: Sure.
28:17
SPEAKER_02: And there's also this aspect of Christianity that,
28:22
that has this strong belief that anything that's going to
28:26
happen in the world is,
28:30
SPEAKER_02: God's going to make it happen to the people of Israel.
28:33
SPEAKER_02: And that's why you hear a few,
28:35
SPEAKER_02: I'll say this nicely,
28:36
nutcases saying that the reason why we have the Iran war is so
28:39
that Jesus will come
28:40
SPEAKER_02: back.
28:41
SPEAKER_02: Well, that's just ridiculous, right?
28:44
But there are some Christian people who are so in on biblical
28:50
prophecy and the
28:52
SPEAKER_02: place of the Jews and the story and that if you say anything about
28:56
negative about Israel,
28:59
you're not only anti-Semitic,
29:00
you're anti-Christian.
29:01
SPEAKER_02: And I think to John's point,
29:05
SPEAKER_02: and we're not going to debate this further,
29:07
it can be a very difficult challenge sometimes to really
29:11
believe passionately in
29:12
SPEAKER_02: the state of Israel,
29:14
SPEAKER_02: to love the people of Israel.
29:15
SPEAKER_02: John and I have been there many times as well.
29:18
And yet once in a while I'll see the Israeli government do some
29:21
things and say,
29:22
SPEAKER_02: you know what,
29:24
SPEAKER_02: whether they're Jewish or not,
29:25
SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure that's a good idea.
29:27
SPEAKER_02: Right.
29:28
And it can be very difficult because of all of the emotional
29:32
and theological and
29:33
SPEAKER_02: historical stuff that goes into this conversation.
29:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: Being against a policy, that's not anti-Semitic.
29:41
SPEAKER_01: Right.
29:42
SPEAKER_02: Right.
29:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:43
SPEAKER_02: And so basically to bring it all back,
29:47
SPEAKER_02: We're living in a world right now where Jewish people are being abused,
29:53
SPEAKER_02: attacked,
29:54
SPEAKER_02: taken advantage of,
29:56
SPEAKER_02: criticized,
29:57
SPEAKER_02: scapegoated,
29:59
SPEAKER_02: simply because they're Jewish.
30:04
SPEAKER_02: And whatever Israel does, take Israel out of it, that's still happening.
30:10
SPEAKER_02: It happened before Israel became a nation, a state, right?
30:14
SPEAKER_02: And it...
30:15
SPEAKER_02: if Israel ever ceased to exist,
30:17
SPEAKER_02: which it won't,
30:19
it would still continue because the issue isn't about the state
30:23
of Israel per se.
30:25
SPEAKER_02: It's about people scapegoating Jewish people.
30:29
And there's a,
30:31
sadly,
30:31
there's a long history of that in the Christian church.
30:35
SPEAKER_02: Um,
30:36
SPEAKER_02: I happen to be a Lutheran pastor, retired Lutheran pastor.
30:40
SPEAKER_02: And Martin Luther,
30:40
SPEAKER_02: the German monk who started the Reformation over 500 years ago,
30:44
SPEAKER_02: man,
30:46
he said some horrific things about Jewish people that
30:50
reverberated throughout the
30:51
SPEAKER_02: history of Germany.
30:55
SPEAKER_02: And
30:56
SPEAKER_02: in some ways became at least the kindling of the Holocaust.
31:02
SPEAKER_02: His words were used.
31:04
SPEAKER_02: Now,
31:04
SPEAKER_02: there's been a lot of debate about what Luther was saying and not saying,
31:07
SPEAKER_02: but the bottom line is you can't read his words without saying,
31:09
SPEAKER_02: man,
31:09
SPEAKER_02: that guy was really anti-Jewish.
31:12
SPEAKER_02: And the Lutheran Church has issued a public apology for that.
31:18
SPEAKER_02: And I think even that becomes a challenge.
31:21
SPEAKER_02: What do you do with someone,
31:23
SPEAKER_02: like for Lutherans,
31:24
SPEAKER_02: who so value the many,
31:26
SPEAKER_02: many things that Martin Luther did,
31:28
SPEAKER_02: including...
31:29
SPEAKER_02: sort of freeing up Christianity,
31:33
SPEAKER_02: helping the Germans find a common language,
31:36
SPEAKER_02: really being an advocate for grade schools and public education.
31:39
SPEAKER_02: And John and I are listening to a podcast,
31:43
or some will argue that he is one of the most pivotal players
31:46
in the last 600
31:47
SPEAKER_02: years.
31:49
What do you do with a guy like that who at the same time was
31:50
really anti-Semitic?
31:53
And I think these are some of the challenges and nuances that
31:58
we all have to kind
31:59
SPEAKER_02: of live through.
32:01
SPEAKER_02: But bottom line is,
32:04
SPEAKER_02: if we are followers of Jesus,
32:05
SPEAKER_02: who was Jewish,
32:07
SPEAKER_02: still is Jewish,
32:09
SPEAKER_02: if you are Christians and you believe he's alive,
32:11
SPEAKER_02: still is Jewish,
32:14
SPEAKER_02: there's no place for it.
32:17
anything that smacks of anti-Semitism,
32:21
the Jews are the enemy,
32:23
the Jews killed Jesus.
32:26
And our call is to walk side by side with our Jewish brothers
32:30
and sisters to live
32:33
SPEAKER_02: out the big gift that the Jewish people gave to us.
32:37
SPEAKER_02: Of course,
32:37
SPEAKER_02: Christians would say it's Jesus,
32:38
SPEAKER_02: but the big gift that Jewish people gave to the world
32:42
is a sense of justice and fairness and siding with the poor and
32:47
the vulnerable.
32:48
SPEAKER_02: And what made the Jewish faith so unique from all the others,
32:51
SPEAKER_02: not just monotheism,
32:52
SPEAKER_02: which made it unique,
32:54
SPEAKER_02: was that this God stands on the side of the poor,
32:59
SPEAKER_02: the oppressed,
32:59
SPEAKER_02: the hungry,
33:01
SPEAKER_02: and the vulnerable.
33:02
SPEAKER_02: No other God stood on that side.
33:04
SPEAKER_02: No other nation stood on that side.
33:07
SPEAKER_02: And it's one of the gifts created in the image of God,
33:12
SPEAKER_02: that's woven into our Constitution.
33:15
SPEAKER_02: That all comes from a Jewish perspective.
33:17
SPEAKER_02: And of course,
33:19
SPEAKER_02: as I've said many,
33:19
SPEAKER_02: many times on this podcast,
33:21
SPEAKER_02: the only Bible Jesus had was the Hebrew Scriptures.
33:25
SPEAKER_02: That's it.
33:26
SPEAKER_02: He didn't have the New Testament.
33:27
SPEAKER_02: So Jesus is always talking about the Jewish God, period.
33:31
SPEAKER_02: No other God.
33:33
And that means that we as Christian people should be the
33:35
biggest advocates for our
33:38
SPEAKER_02: Jewish friends.
33:40
SPEAKER_02: Not that we have to agree all the time with Israel's policies.
33:43
SPEAKER_02: We can disagree with policies.
33:46
SPEAKER_02: But Michael's talking about something far deeper.
33:51
SPEAKER_02: I think maybe,
33:53
SPEAKER_02: Michael,
33:53
SPEAKER_02: to help people understand,
33:54
SPEAKER_02: maybe you could help us do this as we wrap up.
33:57
SPEAKER_02: How would you articulate the difference between racism and anti-Semitism?
34:02
SPEAKER_02: They're pretty close, right?
34:03
SPEAKER_02: Right.
34:04
If nothing else,
34:05
they're siblings,
34:06
but we use the two words differently in our country.
34:09
SPEAKER_02: We talk about racism.
34:10
SPEAKER_02: We talk about antisemitism.
34:12
What's the nuance or how might understanding racism help us
34:16
better understand what
34:17
SPEAKER_02: antisemitism is?
34:19
SPEAKER_02: That's a really big question.
34:20
SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow.
34:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, they are similar.
34:23
SPEAKER_01: It's just the population.
34:25
SPEAKER_01: Got it.
34:25
SPEAKER_01: Right.
34:25
SPEAKER_01: I mean, racism is now used for to talk about people of color.
34:30
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
34:31
SPEAKER_01: And and anti-Semitism is the same thing against Jews.
34:35
So scapegoating and then and then making assumptions,
34:39
stereotyping,
34:40
prejudice,
34:40
bigotry.
34:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:42
SPEAKER_01: And then even creating policy that really does oppress that group with
34:49
SPEAKER_01: anti-Semitism,
34:50
SPEAKER_01: scapegoating a group.
34:51
SPEAKER_01: Right.
34:52
And then and then it's more social media thing,
34:54
not necessarily creating policy against Jews.
34:57
SPEAKER_01: But I think they're similar.
35:01
SPEAKER_01: I think it's just the population.
35:03
SPEAKER_02: So so in a sense, anti-Semitism is racism against Jewish people.
35:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:10
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
35:11
SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
35:12
SPEAKER_01: It's just a new word because Jews used to be called a race.
35:15
SPEAKER_01: OK, Jews were not a different race.
35:17
SPEAKER_01: Right.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: Right.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: There are three races.
35:19
SPEAKER_01: So that was an old word that was used.
35:21
SPEAKER_01: So we're not going to say anti-racism about Jews.
35:24
SPEAKER_01: We're going to say anti-Semitism.
35:26
SPEAKER_01: But, yeah, I think it's the same thing.
35:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
35:27
because anti-Semitism tends to target people based on the color
35:31
of their skin,
35:32
SPEAKER_02: not solely,
35:33
SPEAKER_02: but generally speaking.
35:35
SPEAKER_02: Where anti, yeah, racism, yes.
35:38
SPEAKER_02: Where anti-Semitism is against a people group.
35:40
SPEAKER_02: A people, yeah, a group.
35:42
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
35:43
SPEAKER_01: A people group called the Jewish.
35:44
Whose skin color is the same as a lot of white people,
35:48
but it's a group that's identified.
35:50
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
35:51
But there can even be Jewish people whose skin color can be
35:54
darker,
35:55
right?
35:55
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, a lot.
35:56
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
35:59
And even in newer pictures that people have been trying to
36:01
develop of Jesus or in
36:03
SPEAKER_02: their imaginations.
36:05
SPEAKER_02: He was a dark skinned person living over in the Middle East.
36:09
So but that's what makes it the Jewish a bit different is it's
36:13
not just about skin color.
36:14
SPEAKER_02: It was about them as a people, a unique set of people.
36:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
36:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
36:20
SPEAKER_00: Well,
36:20
SPEAKER_02: Michael,
36:21
SPEAKER_02: this has been this is one of those podcasts,
36:23
SPEAKER_02: folks,
36:23
where we just sort of raise more questions and try to give some
36:26
information.
36:28
SPEAKER_02: Right?
36:28
SPEAKER_02: Because it's such a deep topic.
36:31
SPEAKER_02: But again,
36:32
SPEAKER_02: our call is to embrace our Jewish friends,
36:37
SPEAKER_02: to embrace,
36:38
SPEAKER_02: of course,
36:39
SPEAKER_02: the God that they love because that's the God Jesus loved,
36:42
and embrace the reason for the Jewish people in many ways was
36:46
to bring light and
36:47
hope and grace to a world that's filled oftentimes with
36:50
brokenness and darkness.
36:54
SPEAKER_02: And so I think the suffering of the Jewish people
36:57
And yet their ethic of justice and mercy and compassion is what
37:03
makes them unique,
37:04
SPEAKER_02: probably what makes them a target as well in some ways.
37:09
SPEAKER_02: But in this after Easter season,
37:12
this is the time for us as Christian people to remember who we
37:15
are and what it
37:16
SPEAKER_02: means to follow Jesus as people who love all.
37:19
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Michael.
37:20
SPEAKER_03: That's right.
37:20
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, guys.
37:21
SPEAKER_02: Good to have you.
37:22
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, John.
37:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
37:23
SPEAKER_03: Well done.
37:24
SPEAKER_02: We'll be back with you.
37:25
SPEAKER_01: Good to meet you, John.