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Is there a hero's journey for women? | Maintaining Frame 113 · Honey Badger Radio

• 1:45
  Speaker 1: One.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Honey Badger Radio. I will be
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: your host, Alison, and with me today is Brian and
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: we are going to be doing Is There a Hero's
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: Journey for Women? That is the title of the show
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: that we will be doing. Maintaining frame number one thirteen.
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: Before we get into it, I just want to remind
• 2:06
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• 2:27
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• 2:31
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• 2:34
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• 2:38
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• 2:41
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  Speaker 2: the Tip, and apologies for the late start. I have
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: been dealing with the website. A few of you have
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: mentioned the fact that the website isn't working. Apparently it
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: might have gotten infected with malware, and I had some
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: back and forth with the support people and I had
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: to I had to restore a previous backup, and it
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: was very confusing about the time and because apparently the
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  Speaker 2: malware may have been on the site since June, but
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: I only got a July backup that I could restore.
• 3:45
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• 3:53
  Speaker 2: be good. They assure me it's fine now, so there
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: we go. That's fixed, and then I had an issue
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: with my setup, which I have been changing so I
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: don't jiggle or the jiggle the camera as much because
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: there's lots of complaints about that. And there's always the
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: complaints about the sound. So if I'm too loud or
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: Brian's too loud, or the video is too loud, just
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: tell us and we'll try to fix that on the go.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: All right, all of the missed critical systems seem to
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: be optimal. So let's get started. Do you want to start, Brian,
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: or do you have anything you wanted do? I know?
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: The only thing I wanted to say is so the
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: way that my macro works for the camera switching it
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: if you if it picks up any sound on your end,
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: it's gonna switch to you, even if I like a video.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: So what we'll what we'll do is either yeah, either
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: that or just mute when you're not talking and then
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: unmute when you're ready to talk.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: So I need to stop the rollerblading and the surping
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: and the demolition just.
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: Whatever it is, because yeah, because it is a it's
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: it's a sensitive setup that works well when all of
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: the pieces are working, you know, individually, So I just
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: want to prevent a situation where you know, like like
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: say I start playing the video and the audio the
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: video is playing, and then while it's playing, you make
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: a sound, it switches to you, but it won't switch
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: back because the way that it works is it it
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: will switch to the scene if there is a pause
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: of one second, so like if I pause the video
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: and like everybody stops for a second, then it'll switch.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: So otherwise I just have to do it manually, which
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: I'm I'm you know, I'm fine with so anyway, Yeah,
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: I mean I've been doing it manually for a while anyway, So,
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: but the automated system is super helpful. Yeah. So anyway,
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: we have talked about the woman's female hero's journey before
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: and what that might be, and I remember talking to
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: Icon Carbage and Pegout about it on the show, and
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: it's an interesting subject because I do think that it's
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: one of the reasons why we are having so many
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: problems with men and women is because women's journey is
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: not It's like the narrative of womanhood is not defined.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: And I think that there's a number of consequences of that.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: But I can get into it when we watch the
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: video So first, I have this video. It's a feminist
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: video and a channel called the Writer's mind Set. The
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: Writer's Mindset is doing an interview with a writer named
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: Calee or Gail Carriager, and it's called what is the
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: Heroine's Journey? So this is from the feminist perspective. Take
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: that as however you will, and we'll listen to her
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: a bit. It's only it's short. It's like four minutes.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: So yeah, let's go ahead and listen to.
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: It for anyone who hasn't heard of the heroines.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: Actually, before we get into it, I realized, go back
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: to the very beginning the first still I know, I
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: did that with I did it with Byrony last yesterday,
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: same expression. And also, how can you have a journey
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: if you're maintaining the idea that women are morally better
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: by virtue of being women? Yeah, where do you journey to?
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: There's a lot about the hero's journey is about taking
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: responsibility for an external set of principles or a group
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: of people that needs your help. Where is the journey
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: for women if they already start with I guess moral
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: perfection or relative moral perfection? Anyway, I just I just
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: noticed the expression is so similar to Byrony who recovered Yes,
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: it's that same kind of smirking, contemptuous, duplicitous like Doper's
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: delight expression. They all start, I mean, like when I
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: start my my videos, usually I start on some weird
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: neutral expression like resting bitch face, you know, yeah, And
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: I try not to because that just looks a little weird.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: But I'm like, you know, it's just a it's just
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: a I'm thinking about how to get the camera working,
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: how to get the sound working. I'm thinking about all
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: of this stuff. What are they thinking about before they
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: roll the camera? Are they thinking about how much they're
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: they're by I'm boozling someone because that's the expression I get.
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. I'm trying to figure out why
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: is your camera frozen on my obs it?
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: Okay, maybe I need to reduce I.
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: Think you need to do because your internet is like,
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: I don't know, man, it's super slow.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because I'm not really doing anything but this. For
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: some reason, Elgato just does not want to register this.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: So maybe that's the problem.
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't like it doesn't like this camera feed.
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: I don't know if it's the camera you have or what.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: But what was working?
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, it was choppy yesterday too, though I don't
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: know if it's just this camera.
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: Is it completely frozen.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: In video Ninja? It's fine, But the browser source at
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: OBS is very like it's basically like a fill a
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: still frame, and that's what it was doing yesterday.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: Oh so it's going fine into into video Ninja. So
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: on my side it should be fine, and it's just
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: on on your side it's just not picking.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I just did a speed test and it's
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: not my internet, but I am getting the red I'm
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: getting your SINS video packet loss indicator of video Preview. Yeah,
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: I don't know what I can do.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: Because if it isn't in video Ninja, if it's fine,
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: if you're seeing the indivision of video Ninja and it's fine,
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: then it's not actually on my end, it's it's something
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: about BS is incompatible with whatever I'm sending, which is weird.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: Weird because isn't it just like basically.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: A screenc Yeah, it's basically a browser source. So what
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: I'm what it's doing is oh, okay, let me see
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: if I can change this in some way to make it.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah about this guy, I mean difficulty.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: Well, technical difficulties.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: With gideo settings. I'm just trying to see maybe I can, like,
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: you know, make it like lower the frame rate or something.
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: I don't know, so that it's smoother.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: Okay, I well, I mean I could change.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: Are you a dire box iPhone? Is that your camera?
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, use that. Use that's what that's my camera.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: It's because I got I got like this thing that
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: comes across and it's less, it's more impervious to me
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: moving around.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: So you're using you're using an iPhone to do this
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: camera work?
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, I didn't know you'd know that.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the thing. Try losing the moving background. What are
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: you talking about? There's no movie? No, that's that's not
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: the problem. You want me to turn it off. I
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: can turn it off. I don't think that's going to
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: change anything though. Uh here boom, no background and and
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: it doesn't and it is what it is.
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah okay, well so it but it does register that
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: I'm sending. It just doesn't like the I for.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: Some reason, it doesn't like the iPhone.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: Hmmm, Well I can do I can do a look
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: up on obs and see if there's anything.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: I can change your camera on I am. Let me
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: see do that.
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: So I can't believe that that's an issue really because
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: it's going through video ninja, right, so wouldn't it. Okay,
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: so it here is something. Maybe you need to have
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: a plug in an OBS or something.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: No, I don't think so, I don't know. It's just
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: like this, only this camera seems to be an issue.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: Hmmm. Well because you can't use iPhone in OBS, so
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: it's still just stuck.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and now you're gone.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah I turned it off for briefly.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: And you're back.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: M hmm.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: I mean if you want to look, if you want
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: to look out of yourself, just go to the stream
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: and look at it.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm using the desktop camera.
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's still giving me well if I haven't read cars,
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: But let's refresh the cash on this thing. Oh, I
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: could just do it right here, so give me a second.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: I don't know why that would change any Yeah.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: There you are.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: I don't know why that would change.
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but now it's working. Yeah, okay, I don't I
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: don't get it, but it is.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: All right. Then I guess we'll use this. Then let
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: me just fix this a bit. M hm. Get the
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: chords out of the way. Make you can actually see
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: me there.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, now now now it's now it's working, don't Yeah,
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: I guess it didn't like that that camera, I don't know.
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: All right, okay, well yeah we're good. So sorry about that.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: Let's get into the video now that you know, we'll
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: have like an Allison that moves and not like.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: A talking We gotta figure that out out though, because
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: I that that camera has less some annoyance to me.
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: Okay, all right, Well, for anyone who hasn't heard of
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: the Heroine's Journey, can you just explain how it differs
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: from the Hero's Journey?
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: And also what with that word I'll actually.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: Wait a second. Are we is this is this going out?
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: Because it hasn't been It didn't go to the it
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: hasn't been announced like the only streams that have been
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: announced in the discorder yesterday's streams.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: What Yeah, yeah, I'm live. There's people watching. Okay, yeah,
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: we got we got art force. It's live. It's not
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: it's public. Yeah, we're live. Well, actually the vertical is
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: not let me make that one. Sorry, the vertical one
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: is unlisted, but I'll just make it public.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll make that listed.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: Probably, but uh yeah, so but yeah, no, it's live
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: and it's live on Rumble.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: Then why is it not going out to the Discord.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: Well, then the announcements didn't go through. That's that's whatever
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: the bot is that sends out announcements for whatever reason,
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: that didn't go out. But I put like an event
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: and it's and it's it's showing up. So I don't know.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: It didn't go out on the Discord though, I guess.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: Let me see here show announcements. Yeah, it's weird. I
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: didn't I didn't do that, but there it is. Well,
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: I guess not my fault. I don't deal with the
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: bots on Discord.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: Well, YouTube's up to something. Then I guess we're we're
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: no longer announced again. Let's get there. Let's get that m.
• 15:52
  Speaker 5: Most people are.
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: Familiar with the hero's journey because of not talk to us.
• 16:03
  Speaker 6: At least eventually you kind of pick it up or
• 16:05
  Speaker 6: encounter it just you know, if you're a sci fi writer,
• 16:12
  Speaker 6: talk about the hero journey first, because most of the
• 16:14
  Speaker 6: time it's the one people.
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: Have access to and the language talk about.
• 16:19
  Speaker 6: Essentially, it's basically this idea that a hero has a quest,
• 16:24
  Speaker 6: has these sort of patterns of withdrawal and return where
• 16:27
  Speaker 6: he goes into a liminal space.
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: And I'm using pronouns.
• 16:31
  Speaker 6: Casually, so I'll get to that in a second. But
• 16:34
  Speaker 6: so he crosses a threshold, he retrieves a boon, he
• 16:37
  Speaker 6: takes it back, he's presented with an award, etcetera.
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: Etc.
• 16:40
  Speaker 6: You can just google and take a look of it
• 16:42
  Speaker 6: at any image of the hero's journey out there, and
• 16:44
  Speaker 6: they'll give you the sort of circular layout of this journey.
• 16:47
  Speaker 6: You'll be very familiar with the hero's journey because you
• 16:50
  Speaker 6: will have encountered it in like most sort of in
• 17:01
  Speaker 6: a way, the hero's journey, the hero always ends up
• 17:03
  Speaker 6: kind of going at it alone.
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: It's usually him against the universe.
• 17:06
  Speaker 6: He has to prove himself, either to himself or two others,
• 17:11
  Speaker 6: et cetera, et cetera. So it has all of these
• 17:13
  Speaker 6: also sort of messages in narrative.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: Good Lord, I'm feeling the hero's journey towards the point. Good.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: She's explaining what it is. It's a short video, but well,
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: we'll get into it. I think there is something interesting here,
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: but obviously we have to get that. So this is
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: the feminist perspective. So she's gonna get a little intersectional
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: on us here in a second with.
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: It, and then there's the heroin's journey.
• 17:44
  Speaker 6: So the first and most important thing to know is
• 17:46
  Speaker 6: that these narratives are referred to using gendered language, but
• 17:50
  Speaker 6: they aren't gendered, So a female or non binary person
• 17:55
  Speaker 6: can be a hero.
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: An example that I often use is the reason.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: Did you see the Wonder Woman movie? Which one the
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: well she must be talking about the Gala Gadot one
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: from like the when, well, when did that come out?
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: Like two thousand and I don't know, thirteen or something
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: like the one that takes place during World War one?
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm, Yeah, I've seen that. I've seen it.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: I thought it was a good movie.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: I liked it. I thought it was like, yeah, it
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: wasn't I didn't think I mean I didn't like the ending, but.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: Where she fights what it was it Zeus or something.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean like everything up to that point
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: was good, and especially the pilot. He was like, you know,
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: the the most likable and he gives he does the
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: biggest sacrifice, which you know, kind of mad. I'm not
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: saying he's the hero, but you know, usually the person
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: has the most to lose and risks. It is like
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: worthy of recognition. But what I what I mean when
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: I say I didn't like the ending is not the
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: reveal that Aries was like this. I think he was
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: like a uh some British pop prime minister or politician
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: or or something that was disguised as Aries, and he
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: was like fomenting war, you know, World War One. He
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: was like behind it. I didn't mind any of that.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: I thought that was really cleverly dumb. What I don't
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: like is that the ending just turned into a big
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: CGI fight that wasn't very like nice to look at.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: And I thought they could have they could have done
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: better than just have a big CGI fight at the end.
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: So and but I enjoyed it regardless. I there were
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: two Wonder Woman movies, but I'm not talking about the
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: second one. She's referred to the first one. I don't know.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, I guess in a way it does reflect
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: the hero's journey. I suppose like she's you know, an Amazon,
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: and she like learns about the world of men and
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: stuff like that, and like all of her sisters are like,
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: don't go there. Men are terrible, and she like you know,
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: falls in love with one and but I don't know
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: is that is that unique in this regard what she's saying,
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: Is she right about that? That's why I'm asking if
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: you saw the.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: Movie, yeah, yeah, well if it's a classical heroes journey,
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: Well I want to note something. We are how much
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: into the video about half and we still haven't gotten
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: to the hero the heroines journey.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she's about well she said she yeah, she's talking
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: about pronouns and nine binary people, but.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and the hero's journey. She's also talking about the
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: hero's journey. She's basically saying, Wonder Woman's journey was the
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: hero's journey, which you know, fair enough, but they still
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: haven't talked about the heroines journey. I'm just I'm just
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: pointing this out. I don't think they really have.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think what they're suggesting is that the heroes
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: the hero's journey can be the heroine's journey if you
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: just change the gender. So it's like a simple like
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: that's what I think she's saying, But let's listen to.
• 21:10
  Speaker 6: Some more Similarly, heroines can be male identified or not.
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: That kind of clear.
• 21:29
  Speaker 6: It's just that the language we have to refer to
• 21:31
  Speaker 6: these two narratives was kind of sixties and seventies, and
• 21:35
  Speaker 6: so that's just how it's fallen out of this JOm.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: Was it.
• 21:41
  Speaker 6: But what the heroine wants and the goals that she
• 21:44
  Speaker 6: sets for herself are just completely different from the hero
• 21:47
  Speaker 6: And there's no like a priory value as to one
• 21:50
  Speaker 6: journey being better or worse than the other one.
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: It's just as readers and as writers, we.
• 21:54
  Speaker 6: Often gravitate to one instead of the other, especially in
• 21:56
  Speaker 6: the Western world. So a heroin's journey is really speaking,
• 22:00
  Speaker 6: she has something that is taken from her, and it's
• 22:02
  Speaker 6: usually a family network or emotional tie or bond of
• 22:05
  Speaker 6: some kind. So the example that I use often is
• 22:08
  Speaker 6: Persephone being taken from Demeter, so that Demeter is started
• 22:12
  Speaker 6: on a heroin's journey because she is questing for her daughter.
• 22:14
  Speaker 6: And that's that's kind of what the heroine is usually doing.
• 22:17
  Speaker 6: The heroine is usually questing for some kind of reunion
• 22:21
  Speaker 6: or unity or cohesion of some kind. She's looking to
• 22:25
  Speaker 6: put something back together again that was broken or that
• 22:28
  Speaker 6: she's you can define something that was taken.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: And her, Okay, that doesn't what about all of the
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: men who are like so, I guess John Wick is
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: a heroine's journey because he gets his dog taken like
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: or taken away? Was this dog killed or was there
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: the opportunity to save his dog?
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: No, his dog was killed.
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: It well, but you know he loses his dog. I
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: guess the revenge jasspac means it's a so any oh oh.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: The Big Lebowski is a heroine's journey because he loses
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: his rug, yes, and he has.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: To get it back.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: Like, what the hell is she talking about? This is
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: not the okay, so we can't have so it specifically,
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: a female journey is losing something and getting it back.
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: I don't think so. I don't.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think so either. I think, well,
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: what about? Okay? What I think are probably some of
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: the best examples of a classic story that involve a
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: female protagonist. The Wizard of Oz and Alice in Wonderland.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: So what have they lost in those Dorothy? Like, yeah,
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: she's trying to find a way back home. Alice doesn't.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: I don't think that she's initially trying to get back.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: I think that she's just dropped into this world. Maybe
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: I'm wrong, but I think that she's just trying to
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: It's like she's she originally believes in nonsense, and then
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: she goes to Wonderland and realizes all nonsense, and she
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: rationalizes everything, or tries to, and that's what put her
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: at odds with like the Queen of Hearts? Is that
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: is that wrong? I'm not I've be't read that in
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: a while. But I don't think it's about finding something
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: that was lost.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: And also, yeah, I don't. I mean, the Snow Queen
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: is another female heroic, and it's basically I mean, I
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: guess you could say that her friend was taken from her,
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: so she's finding was lost, But then what about all
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: your princesses another castle kind of stuff? You know. It
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: just that doesn't seem to be the defining factor. It
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: seems to be arbitrary what she's saying.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, I do. I think that what she's
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: try to do is universalize the hero's journey and say
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: this can apply to women. But well, wait till she
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: talks about There's another thing that comes up that's pretty
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: interesting too. Really, more of the video now Here we Go.
• 25:15
  Speaker 6: Is similar in that she has a discent, she has
• 25:18
  Speaker 6: she crosses a threshold, she disguises herself usually and then
• 25:21
  Speaker 6: she has all of these patterns much like the hero does,
• 25:25
  Speaker 6: but her goal and strength is almost always in accessing
• 25:28
  Speaker 6: information and communicating with people. So a heroine on her
• 25:31
  Speaker 6: journey is always seeking to talk to people, to get
• 25:35
  Speaker 6: in contact with people, to put a group together, to
• 25:37
  Speaker 6: put a group quest together.
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: I like to say that heroines make very good generals.
• 25:41
  Speaker 6: They're usually really good at identifying the strengths and weaknesses
• 25:44
  Speaker 6: and others and activating them.
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: Heroines are very good at asking.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: Okay, all right, so what are the other things? So
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: a heroin loses something and goes on a quest to
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: get it. A heroin goes on a quest to put
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: a group together. Is this another thing that she's saying
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: that is part of the heroin's journey? You need so
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: all of the all of the assembling the crew for
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: a heist, those are that's the heroines.
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: Well, I don't know if she would say this.
• 26:13
  Speaker 5: But the bioepics on Napoleon Heroin's journey, because he's assembling
• 26:19
  Speaker 5: an army and you know, people who can enact his will.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: Cringe to say that they're you know, heroines are good generals.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: I think that's a bit.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: This is a very interesting This is a very interesting
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: interpretation because I never realized that the war part of
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: war in Peace was the heroin's journey as opposed to
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: the part that involved the domesticity and everything that was
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: going on there. No, actually it was Napoleon gathering his
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: troops and then the Tzar gathering his troops. That was their
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: respective heroines journey.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: Oh good lord, I will say though that again, going
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: back to the Wizard of Oz, one of the things
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: that Dorothy did well was that she brought out the
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: best characteristics in the scarecrow, the tin man, and the
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: cowardly Lion. So she brought out the best in them,
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: and that was what you could say. She was their leader,
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: but it's almost like she was their mother. It was
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: like a very motherly thing that she was doing. Does
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: that make.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: Sense, Yes, he does.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So I don't know if that's what she would
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: say as an example, but that's what that's what I
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: was thinking about. Anyway, Let's play the rest of this.
• 27:43
  Speaker 6: Quality where they're really good at knowing what's needed to
• 27:46
  Speaker 6: accomplish things together, and the end of the heroines journey
• 27:50
  Speaker 6: is almost always a compromise of some kind that is
• 27:53
  Speaker 6: for the good, for the greater good for the good
• 27:56
  Speaker 6: of mankind. In the case of like the ancient Greek
• 27:58
  Speaker 6: myths Demeter, compromise results in the seasons, which allow for
• 28:02
  Speaker 6: the harvest, et cetera. And so that's kind of the
• 28:05
  Speaker 6: core of these these two narratives.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: It's for the greater good.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: Okay, so this is pretty this is pretty thin. But
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: let me see if I got everything that she actually said.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: She said that, Uh, Heroine's journey. I'm just gonna open
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: up a little text. Doctor. Heroine's journey involves losing something,
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: losing something and getting it back, gathering the troops, which
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: is recognizing other people's unique skills, asking people, asking others,
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: and finally it ends with a compromise. Yeah I got
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: that right.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's for the greater good, for.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: The greater compromise, for the greater good. I haven't seen
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: that for a while. I mean, how are women compromising
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: for the greater good?
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: You see?
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: You see look, look, Mike, my camera is giggling. It's
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: jiggling while I was writing.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: There you go, that's what I was trying to Well,
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: we could hear the We could hear the typing too,
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: is very aggressive. I do have.
• 29:27
  Speaker 7: Aggressive typing, Yeah, well, okay, So this definition of the
• 29:34
  Speaker 7: hero's journey for women, the heroin's journey, as I believe.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: Less than satisfactory unsatisfactory definition.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: In my final conclusion, this is a D grade definition.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: Would you give it a D? I would I would
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: give it a D. I'm not I'm not saying I
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: know the answer, but I don't think that's it. I
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: think that it's there is something about we should be
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: looking at the old stories to see what is in them, right,
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: what is in them that that is I don't know
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: something that women can take inspiration from. Now. I also
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: have another person who spoke to this, and I also
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: think they're wrong, and I'll tell you why when we
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: get to it. But this is Mary Harrington and she
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: was talking to Jordan Peterson, and I didn't watch the
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: whole interview, but I did did see this clip and
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: I kind of thought it was interesting where they are.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: Peterson is talking about the hero's journey because it's something
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: that he talks about a lot, and he was trying
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: to figure out what is the female version of this,
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: and one of the things that he sort of proposed
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: was that the image, like the Biblical image of the
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: hero's journey is the Christ and the but the the
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: biblical image of the female journey is actually not Mary
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: but Mary with child, right, and so it's an image
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: of motherhood. Right. So it's Christ in both images, but
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: one is being carried by Mary and the other one
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: is on his own. And Mary Harrington is trying to
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: give her version of things. And so we're going to
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: listen to this and I'll tell you why I think
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: that Mary Harrington is also wrong, although she brings up
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: something kind of interesting.
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: Secondly, on the question of hero's journeys for women, I
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: actually wrote not in the book but elsewhere. I wrote
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: a short essay about this a couple of years ago,
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: because in my observation, there is a hero's journey for women.
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: It just doesn't follow the same track as the male one.
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: And in fact, it has three parts which correspond to
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: a very ancient archetype for what a very ancient female archetype,
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: which is the maid and the mother and the matriarch,
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: the triple goddess, who's a figure out of some pagan traditions,
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: uh in which these are the three faces of These
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: are the three faces of the same goddess, as it were,
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: but they take on different aspects of different parts of
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: women's life.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: All right, So she's talking about the three faces the maiden,
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: the mother, I think, and the matriarch, okay, or they
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: you know, there's another way they put it, is like
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: the young girl, like the the before, she's when she's single,
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: when she's got children, and when she's old, like the crone,
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: as it were. And these are and this is not untrue.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: This is you know, we all go through it. But
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: I think there's something really interesting here. We'll listen to
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: more of this and then i'll uh, I'll give.
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: You my thoughts andcdotally to me, it stacks pretty closely
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: with what what actually a majority of normal women's lives
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: look like. You know, as the maiden, you're free, you
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: have a sort of warrior aspect. You perhaps that's the
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: point where you're pursuing you're pursuing ambitious professional projects. The
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: mother is more oriented towards home in the domestic sphere,
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: and you know, probably probably just doesn't bluntly doesn't care
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: about work as much. I mean, I know a great
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: many very high powered maidens who reached motherhood perhaps in
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: their early thirties, and then just found they just didn't
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: care about the deadlines and the spreadsheets anymore, couldn't give
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: U stuff. I mean this anecdotal, I'm sure, yeah, anecdotally,
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: that's pretty common. And then but then later on, this
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: was something that I found very interesting when I did
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: just likeotherapy training in the late in the late thoughts
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: and early tens, was just how many of the just
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: how many of the trainees on that on that course
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: were women in their late in their fifties and sixties.
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: So these were women who for the most part, already
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: had already had young adult children. Their kids had gone
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: off to university or were soon to leave for university.
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: So they'd pretty much done the motherhood arc. They'd done
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: the mother part of that, and they were moving into
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: a new phase of life. They were moving into what
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: I think of as the matriarch space. I mean the
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: I think the classic three part goddess term for this
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: is krone. But I mean, you know, there was some
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: way from cronhood. These were lively, vital, energetic, public spirited
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: women who had some life experience. They had a lot
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: of connections, they had a rich social life. They've met
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: lots of people, and they were ready to give something back.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: Okay, is that really a journey or just life stages?
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: Like I mean, do we have the same for men?
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: You know, like the male hero's journey is you know,
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: you start out as a young bachelor sewing your wild oats,
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: and then you become a settled man and you have
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: a midlife crisis and you buy an expensive car, and
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: then you retire, and like that's just life stages. It's
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: not really a story about a journey because first of all,
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: it doesn't have an element of a story goal. All right,
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: it's just personal interest, you know what I mean.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's the issue, right, Like she's when she
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: originally proposed it, I was talking to Lindsay about it
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: and we were like, oh, that's interesting, but I've heard
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: it before, you know, like the three I think that
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: they call the fates in Greek mythology, and it's like
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: a young girl, ah, you know, middle aged woman, and
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: an old woman. But the problem with that is it's
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: just like you said, it's just it's just what everyone
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: goes through in life, including men. So the hero's journey
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: is actually a part of the first Like if we
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: were to break the life cycle of a man into
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: the same three parts, where you have a young man,
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: the father, and then like the elder for example, Well,
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: then the hero's journey happens to the young man. In
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: most cases, it sort of fits into that because the
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: father is a different it's like a different life. It's
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: like the father is, you know, raising a young hero
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: of his own or maybe several. And then the elder
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: is the guy who shows up in the life of
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: the hero of like you know, he's like the obi
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: wan Kenobi. He's the one who comes into the guy's
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: life later and sort of introduces him on the path.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: So you can't you can't say that the three life
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: cycles of a woman are equal to one small section
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: of one part of the male life cycle, which is
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: the hero's journey within the first you know, the first section,
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: I guess, the first third of the male life cycle.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: You know the you know, the the riddle of the Sphinx,
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: you know it, what what what walks on? Four legs
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: in the morning, two legs in the middle day, and
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: three legs at night. It's basically that that is the
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: cycle of men, right, So I think that it's incomplete.
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: And also there's another thing about this that's interesting too,
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: is that one of the things I think we're running
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: into with young women today, especially these modern women, these
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: manifestel types, is that they have not gotten out of
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: their maiden phase. They're they're just going to be maidens
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: until they're in their thirties or forties, and they may
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: miss out on the other things that come later. And
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: so I wonder if there because there isn't a story
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: for women, that's why their court is sort of stuck there.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: It's like, you know, being a spoiled girly is essentially
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: failure to launch for women, but we don't want to
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: look at it that way because we know how shameful
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: it is. I guess I don't know if I'm making
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: any sense.
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: But no, you're making sense. Just so what she's presenting
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: as life stages for women, you think is corresponding the
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: first part of the hero's journey.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: For men or no, no, no, I'm I mean like
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: the first the hero's journey for men is only taking
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: up like it it can fit into the life cycle
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: for men as well, do you see, Like, because there's
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: no hero's journey where at the end of the day,
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: he's like an old man. Normally he is an he
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: is a man. It is a coming of age thing.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: So he leaves a boy, starts the journey as a boy,
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: returns as a man. He has transformed, but that only
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: brings him from the first stage, where he's a young
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: man a warrior, to the Maybe the second stage is
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: like where it ends where he becomes a father the
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: hence the man bringing home the princess and like marrying
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: her and they have a big family. So it's like
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: once you become a father, that is like after the
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: end of your hero's journey. If we're looking at it symbolically,
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: does that make sense?
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm, yeah, yeah, I got you.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so there. So I think Mary Harrington is missing
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: the point because the hero's journey for men then and
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: why they're drawn to it, it's it's important because it
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: challenges them and it changes them, like it puts them
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: on a path of hardship, you know, if you look
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: like and and there isn't something like that, or at
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: least we haven't really explored it honestly for women.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, where's the hardship, where's the service to others?
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: Yet in what she's saying, well, I sacrifice, Yeah, the sacrifice. Okay,
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: let's let's let's finish, finish this one off, eh, all right.
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: Yeap, and I've it's in my observation, there are a
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: huge number of women who reach the end of the
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: mother arc, the mother part of that hero's journey, and
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: then and then embrace some perhaps and will then retrain.
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: So they'll have they'll have three careers, they might have
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: a so so they'll be very professional. In their twenties,
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: they'll be a bit more, a bit pretty somewhat more
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: part time, maybe thirty to fifty. And then they'll then
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: they'll retrain and they'll do something like psychotherapy, or they'll
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: do ministry, or they'll do spiritual counseling, or they'll do
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: some or or in some other way become involved in
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: the community, and they'll want to do something public spirited
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: and give back, and and those and those, those women
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: are a hugely rich force for for for for deepening,
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: deepening reflection in the culture, for for for public service,
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: for all manner of the manner of incredibly positive, usually
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: quite self effacing, but incredibly positive, constructive and life giving contribution.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah really, okay, Well, how many of these women are
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: willing to acknowledge that men have a validity and a
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: valid point of view, not that that women don't necessarily
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: have Well, that's true self effacement, That's that's true willingness
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: to admit that women are not the alpha and omega.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: So anyway, let's let's uh, do you want to finish
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: it off or did you have something to say? Uh?
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: No, I don't know that there's a lot left, but
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: we will. I think I got like the main thing
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: I was curious, like to want to talk about, which
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: is her framing of this is incomplete and that it
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: doesn't actually answer the question like what Okay, So let's
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: put it this way. What would be like the male
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: version of the maiden? Would we say the warrior? Can
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: we say that? Or the adventure orphan or whatever? The orphan? Okay?
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, actually I would say that the maiden probably, yeah,
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: the orphan, so okay.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: So the first stage is the maiden. We have the maiden,
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: the mother and the matriarch or the maiden, the mother
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: and the crone, and they're all they all have their place.
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: I think that, you know, we don't honor like our
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: elders like we used to. And I think that a
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: lot of that has to do with the fact that
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: we're sort of separated. A lot of people are separated
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: from their from their family, from their ancestry, so they
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: don't have the same reverence, they don't have the same
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: filial familial piety towards it. But let's just say that
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: this is how it has been in the past. So
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: the first phase is the maiden, the second phase is
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: the mother, and the third phase is the crone. For men,
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: we'll just say the first phase is the orphan. When
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: the hero's journey begins, the orphan, here's the call to adventure.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: And when he completes the journey, he comes back as
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: someone who was ready for the next phase, which is
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: the father. So this is what I mean, Like he
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: it is through the journey that he is ready for
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: the next step, which is to be Yeah, okay, yeah,
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: And there is nothing like that for women, which is
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: why women are girl bossing all the way into their
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: thirties because there's no call or fifties and sixties. Yeah,
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: because there is something missing there. Does that make sense? Yes?
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah? And I no, I get what you're saying now.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: So her hero's journey is the transition between these life
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: stages or that you aren't that the individual or the
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: characters made ready for the next stage. And she's saying
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: that the heroines journey is the life stages, which is
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: actually very feminine if you if you, if you think
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: about it, the hero's journey is something that a man
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: goes out and achieves the skills necessary to enter his
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: next phase of life. And she believes that the heroines
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: journey is simply going through time happens. Time happens.
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's the challenge. And and Mary
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: Herring is not she's you know, she's not dumb. But
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: I don't think this has been thought through because it's like,
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: wait a minute. You know, men all so experienced the
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: three phases, and it's probably be good if there was
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: some kind of story or narrative for each one. And
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: I think there is, Like there are stories about fatherhood
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: that are meant to inspire men to become wise like
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: and become like the elder, which is sort of the
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: male version, you know, the wise man, because he has
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: this lived experience of both being a young warrior orphan
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: and also being a father, and that's what they carry
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: into their old age. And I think if you skip
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: a step, it is a bit of a hindrance.
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: Well, most of the hero's journey really seems to be
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: about the journey from an orphan to a warrior, which
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: gets the male character ready for the next stage. I mean,
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: if we go to the prototypical version of this, which
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: is Star Wars. Like the original Star Wars, Luke very
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: much starts out as a orphan, right.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: That's almost his definitely an uncle.
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's got his own uncle. But he loses his
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: own uncle, which is the start of his journey. He
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: becomes the orphan, and then he goes through the process
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: of learning with Obi Wan and becomes a warrior. But
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: then excuse me, sorry about that, and then he so
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: he becomes a warrior, but then he takes it a
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: step further and he starts to question his own desire
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: for revenge in the process of developing himself or developing
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: his wisdom, which will take him more to the point
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: of being I guess the king. So it's it's it's orphan, warrior, king,
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: and sage essentially are the three life phases, but for
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: the most part, people focus on the journey for young
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: men between orphan and warrior, and not so much the
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: journey from warrior two King because that requires understanding I
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: guess more of a like social impact or social the
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: effects or the effects of not just obtaining power, of
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: exercising it in a way that that helps bring about legacy.
• 46:22
  Speaker 8: Right.
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: And then of course the stage is the point where
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: the male character takes on the role of cultivating or
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: i'll use the nurturing other characters, the strength of other people. So,
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, so what she hasn't really identified a journey.
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: She's just identified the stages, and so women have their
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: own stages like that. May I don't know if there's
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: a if there's a warrior stage. They seem to go
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: from maiden matriarch and then to crone. Maybe the problem
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: is that there is no like there's no step between
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: maiden the matrix like there seems to be with the
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: male version, which is orphaned warrior than two king. Yeah,
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: so I mean that's something you think about.
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: That is something to think about. I was, well, I
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: got some super chows and this this video there's not
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: there's nothing left really, but I did get superchows. Yeah,
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: I mean, I just well I can play them. I
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: can play the rest of it. But I don't think
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: she says much else. But let's let's see these super chows. Really.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think she's gonna surprise you.
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: Because I did, but I don't. I don't remember if
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: anything stood out for me after this.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: But the hero's journey requires a journey, not just stages.
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah right, I do think, I guess I do think
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: the fatherhood is part of the stages because men's like
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: actual hormones change when they have kids, and I think
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: that it's like preparing them for another stage in life,
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: and it's different. I don't know how to explain it,
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: but it is different. But anyway, so super Chows. Richard
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: Beerre gave us five bucks, says, okay, I recall a
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: fairy tale story about a daughter of a king who
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: sent her to live with the family of commoners who
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: had some beautiful daughters. The princess had an upturned nose,
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: a downturned mouth, and no sparkle in her eyes. She
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: also had a really bad attitude, and over the course
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: of living with this family, she had finally overcome her
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: attitude by willingly performing various domestic domestic tasks instead of
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: demanding to be waited upon. As she performed each task successfully,
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: a bell would be heard ringing, and a bird would
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: sing and one of the undesirable characteristics would be corrected.
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: I don't recall the title, but perhaps someone in the
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: audience will. I don't know. That sounds like it's like
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: learning to humble yourself. Yep, that's that's a good thing
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: for people in general. So I don't want to I mean,
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe it is particularly feminine, like it's
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: something because it like the opposite is sort of not
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: as discouraged, let's say. But I don't know if you
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: guys know what fairy tale he's referring to. Let us
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: know in the comments in the chat. Richard Beer then
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: gives us five bucks and says, so one day, this
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: princess was feeling the solgic slash wistful about having some muffins,
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: and because the mother and her daughters weren't home, she
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: tried to make a batch herself, and having watched the
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: family making them, she tried to do what she had observed,
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: and even though they didn't turn out perfectly, she was
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: praised for at least taking on the effort of doing so,
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: even without perfect results. And then I got another one
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: more superchow Astrun gave US five dollars and says the
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: hero's journey is like a rite of passage for men.
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: The man has to conquer the challenges so he can
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: get the woman by showing how he has values and principles.
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: I don't see the equivalent for women unless getting a
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: period and people viewing you differently, but just that, but
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: that just happens. She doesn't have to complete a quest.
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: She gets the reward and value automatically. Or that's why
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: we're talking about.
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: It though, Yeah, that's why we're talking about it. But
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: I think I think what we have to look at
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: is what need what women need to do in order
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: for society to function properly. That would probably entail building.
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, we could probably reverse engineer a heroine's journey
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: from that, and you know, and it might be as
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: multifaceted as the hero's journey. But I think that's where
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: we start. What is the what are the things that
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: women need to accomplish for society to continue to exist essentially?
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: And I think that would probably be a start to
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: understanding the hero a specifically heroines journey, right, not just
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: spitballing about Oh maybe maybe heroines journey is assembling the
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: troops like a heist movie, you know, like that the
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: taj of a heist movie, or maybe a heroines journey
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: is trying to get something back like the Big Lebowski
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: getting his carpet back, or maybe a heroin's journey is
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: you know, like is uh is compromised for the greater good?
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: Like that one you remember that video? Uh? That one
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: the guy who did the zombies. Nah?
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: Oh oh oh. Are you talking about the director of
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: Sean and the Dead Edgar. Yes, and you're talking.
• 51:29
  Speaker 8: About Yeah, you're talking about the movie where everybody was
• 51:35
  Speaker 8: saying for the greater good, the greater Yeah, that was
• 51:39
  Speaker 8: hot fuzz.
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: All of those people on.
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: The council were like, you got to die for the
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: greater good, dude, that the greater good?
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: Uh? Well, I okay, I got a super sorry rumble rant.
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: I want to read it really quick and then I'll
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: I'll think about I'll mention something about what you said.
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: Nova Fan twenty one gives us a dollar and says,
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: the idea of a female general being acutely aware of
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: the strengths of others sounds like a Mary Sue trade
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: stolen from men's hard work. It could be maybe what
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: I think maybe we look at what the strengths of
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: women are, what are what are women's potential strengths. I
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: think that, even though it doesn't seem apparent today, I
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: think that.
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: Why don't we finish, like before we get into what
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: we think might think the heroin's journey. Let's let the
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: people that we're discussing have the complete their say. I'm
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: just saying just I'd like to do that. I'm completionist.
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: I guess all right, all right, all right, let's let's
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: do Let's watch the rest of this. It's okay to.
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: To the social fabric. And they're and they they're incredibly marginalized.
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: They're almost completely invisible in terms of the liberal feminist narrative,
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: which really centers the maiden, and it wants to foreground
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: the maiden and to and to tell women that the
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: hero's journey means essentially being the maiden for their entire life,
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: and everything else is just you know, the mother is
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: pretty much that you know, at best, if the mother
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: is noticed, it's as a problem to be solved, and
• 53:12
  Speaker 3: and the and the matriarch doesn't really get a look
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: in at all, and if she does, it's only so
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: that she can be denounced for being a tough or
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: you know, in some other way, you know, spat on
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: for being you know, a dinosaur or obsolete or you
• 53:25
  Speaker 3: know old fashioned or you know, out of touch or
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: in some other way irrelevant.
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: It did.
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well it just became about personal pet peeves.
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that. Just think about this for a second.
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: Ideological incompatibilities or it's like, no, I think that feminism
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: does prioritize the maiden and and also wants women to
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: live as maidens their whole life.
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: And why that is bad for the crone is it
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: essentially makes the chrone non ext I mean, yes, women
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: do grow old, but there's if there is no mothers,
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: then there are no elders, there are no matriarchs. So
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: this is it. This is and yes it will be
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: seen as something old fashioned. Well, but here's the thing too.
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: Once you're a crone, you're basically just another man. So
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: welcome to being a man, I guess you know. Yeah, yeah,
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: I mean yeah, she's making it kind of petty though.
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sorry, like the whole turf, it's immediate pettiness.
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: It's like, oh, they don't they don't appreciate my particular insight.
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: As an older woman, I'm just a problem. Well, you
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: know the turf these are pretty pretty misinderous, So you
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: are a bit of a problem regardless. So is there
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: anything further, like, maybe there's a.
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: Few I'll finish it. There's like another minute left, all right,
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: here we go, hold on a second.
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: Or ridiculous And in fact, these women are the backbone
• 54:59
  Speaker 3: of the social I mean, those are the women who
• 55:01
  Speaker 3: are making who are making cups of making weak cups
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: of tea for slightly traumatized new mothers like I was
• 55:06
  Speaker 3: in small town England and telling me I'm doing fine,
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: and really that mattered a lot at the time.
• 55:12
  Speaker 9: You know, those are those are.
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: The women who are running, who are running Brannise groups
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: for no money every every Wednesday because they can and
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: because they want to give back. Those are the women
• 55:20
  Speaker 3: who are who are retraining as counselors and helping helping
• 55:23
  Speaker 3: traumatize people for free. You know, those are the women
• 55:25
  Speaker 3: who keep things going. And yet somehow the liberal feminist
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: version of the hero's journey just doesn't see them at all.
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: And I think I and so I've been very keen
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: to make a case for a richer if you like
• 55:40
  Speaker 3: a three part to opening a space for thinking about
• 55:45
  Speaker 3: women's heroes journeys in a more spacious way, which actually
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: just observes what life looks like for for mothers and for.
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: Okay, what we don't observe what life looks like from others. Mhmm, Like,
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: is this something we don't do already?
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: Let's play the rest of it in.
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: The in the arc of what what what the average
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: woman's life looks like when when she does have a
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: when when she does become a mother?
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: All right, so we're done with that. Okay, So on
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: the one hand, let me let me, let me do
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: my little typing things or for the aggressive typing. The
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: heroines journey is also the three stages of life, three
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: life stages.
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: Which.
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: Apparently does not involve any kind of achievement. It's just time.
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: Time happens. Does not involve achievement, involve acquiring achievements, were
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: acquiring skills. We're living up standards for a journey. All
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: it is is time casts time happened. Okay, all right,
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: let's look at Okay, you had something you wanted to say,
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: so go ahead.
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: Well, I think Mary Harrington at the end she does
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: sort of confess that she's opening up the conversation around it,
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: and I do appreciate that she said that. I mean,
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: she calls it liberal feminism. I don't know what that means,
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: but feminists will they want women to be maidens their
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: whole life, and I think the reason for this might
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: be just thinking about it. At what stage does a
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: woman have the most power? Is it when she is
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: a maiden, when she's a mother, when she is a crone.
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: I think that feminists will argue that it's when she
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: is a maiden, when she is young and fertile and
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: you know, attractive, she has the most power. Women have
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: a lot of social power, especially if they're young, and
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: feminists believe in is framing everything in terms of power dynamics,
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: so they want to give women every advantage, So they
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: ask them to be girl bosses and remain maidens, which
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: they see as a warrior type attitude for their whole life.
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: And the problem with that is is that it's ultimately
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: that power is self serving only, and that's how you get,
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: by the way, the situation we're in now where single women,
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: which is the maidens we're talking about, are a voting
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: block and they are a demographic voting block now and
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: they're using their power which they have as single women
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: as maidens to essentially just get what they want. So
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: where there is a missing story there or something for
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: women to aspire to is right in there. Like I
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: wouldn't say that motherhood is the answer. There needs to
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: be something before that, because if women don't want to
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: be mothers, then that's not that step won't happen. So
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: there's there's something that women need earlier in there, in
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: you know, during that earlier period that is a narrative,
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: a greater societal narrative around women that inspires them to
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: want to do like good, selflessly and humbly for their society.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: That and that's a big ask. I'm not gonna lie,
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: that's a big ask. But I think that's where like
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: I don't think Mary Hearing too would disagree because she's
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: she admits that you know, this, uh, this forever maiden
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: thing is kind of like the room of the problem.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: So it's like, Okay, how do you shake out of it?
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: And I think that you need a heroic tale. So
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: for women though, that tells them, you know, I could
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: just try to get what I want out of this,
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: but I should be thinking about the world. The world
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: I leave good.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the greater good could say it that the compromise,
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: which doesn't seem to happen.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: And how do you do that if we're like constantly
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: protecting women from the consequences of their actions.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and we're constantly just prioritizing the sort of endless
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: not committing to anything. I was just when you were
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: saying that, I was thinking, well, what is the power
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: of the maiden? And honestly, if you if you really
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: bring it down to brass tacks, it's just being selected
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: by a good man. That's it. Now, what feminism does
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: is it uses that power of desirability and politicizes it
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: for its own benefit. Right, So instead of using that
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: power to start building a life, women submit it to feminism.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: So that I guess feminist women with NGOs get really
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: stinking rich. I don't like. So I think that's what's
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: sort of happening. So they want to keep the maiden
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: in that state because the more women are at the
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: precipice of choosing, the more they can use that influence
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: in a political sense in society. Right, Does that makes sense? Yeah,
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: because they're saying, well, I advocate for all of these
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: women and what all of these women want if they're
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: kept in a state of maidenhood, then that that that
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: body of women that you advocate for the women who
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: are not picked. I guess, I guess that's why the
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: greatest insult is that you're a pickmy, it's because you're
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: you're no longer part of that great political body of
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: women that and gives the sisterhood. It's clout right, you've
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: decided to transition into building a life with someone you know.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: But you know that all of that I advocate for
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: all of these single women, right, that that creates a
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: great power, but it has nothing to do with benefiting
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: the individual woman. So the sisterhood gains all of that
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: clout by all of those women picking not being picked.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: So you know, and again that maybe that's why the
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: greatest insult is that you have been picked, that you're
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: you're reducing the power, overall power of the sisterhood, and
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: you want to shame that because you don't want to
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: do that. You don't want to reduce the clout the
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: perception that feminism advocates for all of these desirable single
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: women or women period. And Okay, so I mean that
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: that could be part of it. Well, I was thinking
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: if we want to move away from like criticism of
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: what's that actually happening to the question of what is
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: the hero's journey? And it's interesting that this is the
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: timing of all of this too, because you sent that
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: video today and yesterday myself and the patrons and people
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: who were involved in like the writer's retreat in the
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: patron Our Patron discord, which if you're interested to see
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: at least the preliminary stuff, you can go to Badger
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: Nation dot online. And we were discussing what is a
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: heroine's journey, like what is unique, what is the journey
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: that's unique to women in terms of a heroic narrative.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: And there was a book that we had been reading
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: because they're in conjunction with all the criticism of writing
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: and looking at storytelling and all of that. We also
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: read books called Butterfly and Hellflower. And there was one
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: person who's participating who said that she thought that Butterfly
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: and Healthflower represented a heroine's journey. The flag is like
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: a long haul space trucker, so it's sort of a
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: masculine sort of role that she's she's sort of like Ripley,
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: except no, he's animorphs, right Ripley before her whole life
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: was turned upside down and she ends up having like
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: she ends up getting involved with this kid who is
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: a super soldier, but he's really young and he has
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: no clue about the streets and how to exist outside
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: of the way he's been raised and being part of
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: that system. And he is royalty of some kind because
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: he's I don't know, it's like some kind of space
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: klingons whatever, and he's being targeted and she has to
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: help keep him alive and also nurture him into somebody
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: who can manage the situation that he's in, So grow
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: him into someone who has the strength of understanding the
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: streets as well as this physical strength. She constantly gets
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: into fights you shouldn't get into all kinds of stuff
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: like that. So it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, she's put
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: into a nurturing role. So she's nurturing this other character
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: who needs to develop his strength in order to manage
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: the situation. And the reason why they were thinking or
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: that we had this discussion, we came this conclusion. The
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: reason why it was considered a heroin's journey is because
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: of that, it's not just about her own strength. It's
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: about the fact that she is nurturing and protecting someone
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: else's strength who she eventually has to let go of.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: And it wasn't just this kid, it was also there
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: was an Ai involved that she had she was actually protecting,
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: and she had to basically get both of them into
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: a state where they could stand on their own two
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: feet and be able to manage the situations that they
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: were in. But ultimately her right. The kid returned to
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: his father and the Ai ended up leaving her ship.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: So that was and the idea is that a heroine
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: at least this aspect of the heroin's journey is that
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: it's not focused on developing her own strength, but it's
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: focused on developing the strength of others who then she
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: has to let go. So it's like an motherly role,
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: yeah right, you have to give them the skills that
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: they need to navigate the world. But it's also a
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: paternal role as well. That that seems to come in
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: more with the with the UH one, you become a
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: kang or a sage. But you mentioned Sarah Connor. Sarah
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: Connor probably would also be entering that role too. Because
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: what she through the process of Terminator won she becomes
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 2: pregnant and she's going to have a child she needs
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: to teach to become the savior of the human race. Right,
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: So it's almost then like if you think about it,
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: it's got a touch of Mother Mary.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it does. It does.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And so she's got to nurture the savior, and
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: that is the female is a very feminine hero's journey.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: So she needs to learn the skills necessary and that's
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: just it.
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: In the original, it's a really good point. In the
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: original Terminator, Sarah Connor was a single girl, had a roommate.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: She liked a party. She you know, she was she
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: was like liking cute guys, like she was living the
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: maiden life. And then Kyle Reese, you know, like the
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: Terminative shows up trying to kill her. Suddenly she realizes
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: something is wrong. Kyle Reese tells her what's going on, right,
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: and while help trying to help her survive, Kyle Reeson
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: and Sarah Connor, they you know, they bump uglies and
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: they have a baby, and then she realizes she's pregnant,
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: and so like it's it forces her to change. Like
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: by the end of the first movie, she is completely different,
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: although and then by the by the midpoint of the
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: second movie when they see her again, she's changed even
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: more dramatically because she's like embraced her new this is
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: her fate now, this is what she has to do. Right,
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: I can't go to the club anymore. I can't go
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: hanging out with the girls. I gotta focus on, you know,
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: essentially getting back to my son, because that's what the
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: second movie is all about. She's trying to escape so
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: that she can get back to her son and protect
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: him and prepare him. So yeah, this and even in
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: Aliens too, well Aliens, that's why I said. Yeah. So
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: in Aliens, Sigourney Weaver's character finds a girl on the
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: planet where the xenomorphs are newt and she, even though
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: they're not related, she protects her in a motherly way.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: And of course she lost her daughter. I think in
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: the in Aliens.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 10: Well, it was the time she had good time passage, right,
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 10: she was in cryostasis for like long enough that her
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 10: daughter died of old age or something.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: So yeah, but but like she's relearning that same thing,
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: and I think that's why those Honestly, that's why those
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: movies work because I think it does need the touch
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: of a maternal instinct in there, but it can be
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: used in a way that essentially is women's way to
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: bring out, you know, the best in people.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: So well, the other other thing is that if you
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: look at those two movies, I'm gonna ignore Aliens three
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: because it's.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: Aliens three kind of does because she gets pregnant by
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: a queen and like kills herself. I mean, it's not
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: a bad movie, but it kind of misses the point.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: But I'm not even gonna reference like the no, no, no,
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: it's just the first two and that's it.
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, just the first two. But this it's interesting
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: how you have Well Connor, Sarah Connor. She starts as
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: very much like you were saying, she's the maiden, but
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: she has to go through this process of toughening and
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: gaining strength and courage as well.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: She's really emotional, she's fragile. She's always crying and screaming
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: and hysterical and cal Reese like shakes, you know, like
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: shakes the reality into her mm hmm.
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: But she she learns to become tougher, and that's part
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: of it. Was it's necessary for her to gain the
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: strength to become a mother, right.
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And in that way, Kyle changes Sarah Connor too,
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: mm hmm. So he changes her and then she in
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: turn changes her son.
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and and he changes her. He also gives her
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: a purpose as well, you know, he can and I
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: think that's a that's a part maybe of the journey
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: from a maiden.
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 11: To to having the strength maybe not be may not
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 11: end with them becoming a mother, because with Ripley's character,
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 11: she was already a mother apparently when the first first
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 11: film started, so she I think.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: So she was the trucker in the first alien movie.
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was the cat, so she protected the cat.
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: But she had a kid who was back on Earth.
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: And essentially what happened is she was in cry Oh wait, no,
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: that's no. No, she was in cryo after the end
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 2: of Aliens one and she ended up aging like sixty
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: years and her daughter was dead by the time she
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: got back to Earth. So that's how she lost her daughter.
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: And so she was already a mother. But through the
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: process of confronting the alien queen she had to she
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 2: developed a courage and self reliance, which then was necessary
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: for protecting Newt in the second movie, So it's almost
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: like there is that element of, yeah, maybe the Maiden
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: has a warrior arc, but ultimately what they're doing is
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 2: developing the self reliance and the skills necessary to nurture
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: another character to strength, right Like with Sarah Connor, it's
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 2: more explicit of Sarah Connor than the Aliens franchise. It's
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: interesting we're talking about science fiction though, No, I think
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 2: they are.
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: Really great examples because like back then it was sort
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: of you know, they were just working within James Cameron
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: gave us a Terminator and Eternator two and Aliens, so
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 1: you could see parallels in both of those, and I
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: think that I mean, like, there was another thing I
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: was gonna mention is that Kyle Reese sacrifices his life
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: to save Sarah. So there's a sacrifice and that is
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: probably like the ultimate motivation for her to survive. Has
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: also survived with the child.
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: He gives her, He gives a purpose, and that's that's
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: before we can get into the super Child. That's one
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: of the aspects I think of the going from Maiden
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: to being prepared for being a mother is to gain
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: this desire or this willingness to use your sexuality, which
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: is what this is more for Sarah Kana there than
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: than Ripley, but to use your sexuality and the aspect
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 2: of your reproduction. So the process of having children raising
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: them in the service of some of a higher cause
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 2: than yourself. That makes sense. So you are having children,
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna use sort of a controversial you're having children
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 2: for Allah, You're having children for your for the Jewish community.
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 2: You're having children and you're raising them as Americans, you know,
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: proud Americans. You're having children and you're raising them your
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 2: religious group, or your cultural group, or your ethnic group,
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 2: or your national group. And there's a sense that you
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 2: are part of that destiny, the overall destiny of that group,
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 2: and the way that you serve that group is by
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 2: having a child and raising it with those values. And
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 2: if you go back to the in order to defeat
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 2: sin in the human raceys higher purpose, and you're putting
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: your sexuality on those aspects of your sexuality and reproduction
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 2: to the service of a higher purpose. And so I
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 2: think that's an element of it too, is to develop
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 2: that sense of sacrifice for a higher purpose. And yeah, okay,
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: well go ahead read that.
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: So I got a super chat from Jay Stewart and
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: he says, writing Archetypal Character Arcs by K. M. Wayland,
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 1: it gives gendered cycles of growth and lists examp of
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: positive and negative arcs for five dollars. Thank you. That's
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 1: a book. I'm gonna check it out. Writing Archetypal Character
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 1: Arcs by K. M. Wayland.
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going to check that out too, And I'm
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: just curious about it to get out of out of
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: science fiction. Another work that I've been looking at recently
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 2: Warren Peace. I told you about that well, I I
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 2: might have talked about it yesterday too. We've been looking
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 2: at all of the variations on Warren Peace that have
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: been filmed. So the nineteen fifty six I believe one
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 2: with Audrey Hepburn, the nineteen sixties one from the Soviet
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 2: Union I will not be able to say the names
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 2: of any of the actors, and the nineteen seventy two
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: to one from the BBC. There was a two thousand
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 2: and seven to one also which was like an Italian,
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: French and German interpretation, and then there was a twenty
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 2: sixteen one. And so having gone through all of those versions,
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 2: first of all the two thousand and seven to one
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: is appalling. Don't watch it. The others all have their
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 2: own pluses and minuses, but just two thousand and seven
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 2: is just gross. They just essentially they turn it into
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 2: a soap opera. They turned it into a vehicle of
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 2: wish fulfillment for women and flattery, and it just it's
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 2: just really appalling. It loses all of what makes Warm
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 2: Piece worse worth it as a story. And it also
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 2: has really really ridiculous battle sceness. Just just the worst anyway.
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 2: But the reason why I bring it up is because
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 2: the character of Natasha, I think represents a female heroin's journey.
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 2: And there's a big, big part of War and Peace
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 2: that revolves around her being engaged to a man named
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 2: Andre Andre and up being seduced during that engagement by
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 2: another man named Anatoly. And what happens is Andrea wants
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 2: to marry Natasha and they're very much in love. But
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 2: Andrea's father says he wants him to wait a year
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: and get his health in order, because Andrea is older,
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 2: he's a soldier, he's injured, he is he does have
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 2: poor health, and he also wants to make sure that
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 2: this very young girl, because I think Natasha was like
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 2: eighteen and Andrea is like thirty one, which you know is okay.
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 2: In the time he does, he's very he's his father
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 2: is concerned about him marrying a very young girl and
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: that she will retain her interest in him, so he
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: wants them to wait before he gives their blessing. And
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 2: during the year, you know, Natasha is doing her very
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: best to wait and be patient, and you know, she
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 2: makes she tries and uh. But then she has this
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 2: disastrous meeting with his father. His father is really cool,
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 2: he's a crazy sort of ex trick and things happen,
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 2: misunderstandings happened. She thinks his father hates her. She thinks
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 2: the sister hates her, which she's not wrong. In the book,
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 2: the sister, the guy Andrea's sister, actually isn't really fond
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: of her. But and all this happens, and then she
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: goes to the opera. Her family's trying to cheer her up,
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 2: brings her the opera and she meets this guy called Anatole,
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 2: and she anatotally just loves bombs her. So she's she's
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 2: going from this this situation where she can't be with
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 2: her beloved Andre. He's sort of a stoic guy. He's
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 2: a little cynical, not very effusive to the situation where
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 2: she's He's she's with this guy. He's like, I love you,
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 2: I've loved you since the moment I saw you. He
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 2: just loves bombs the crap out of her. And she
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: starts to develop this thing in her head. And it's
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: very clear when you read it, not so clear. Is
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 2: it much more difficult to describe in a visual medium
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 2: than it is with written because you can you're watching
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 2: her internal narrative, and I I'll get into why it's
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 2: more difficult to describe what's happening with Natasha in the
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 2: visual medium. But she's going through this process where she's
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 2: inventing this reality within herself, right, She's inventing this idea
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 2: that she has already betrayed Andrea because she has sexual
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 2: feelings for anti Anatolely, So she's already convinced herself that
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 2: the relationship must be over just because she's got the
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 2: hots for another guy. She's just it's just a matter
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 2: of she's quite she doesn't know herself right, right, and
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 2: she doesn't know when things are just fleeting and one thing,
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 2: there's something there that you can build on. And when
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 2: something is just a fleeting emotion and she's constructing this
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: whole reality in her head, she's already brayed, she's already
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 2: betrayed Andre just because she's had sexual feelings for another guy.
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 2: She's convinced herself that it's this is a fate to comply,
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: and she even sort of hates herself for it. But
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 2: then she's like, Okay, I guess I have to go
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 2: with this other guy now. And I know it sounds
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 2: really crazy, but it's a pitball that women have where
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 2: they get into this state, the self referential state, where
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 2: they stop recognizing external factors and just start building something
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 2: based on what they feel.
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: Does that make sense, Yeah.
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 2: They build a reality based on what they feel, and
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 2: Natasha builds this reality based on what she feels. It's
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 2: only really understandable when you're looking at an interior monologue.
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 2: And honestly, I'm amazed at how accurately Tolstoi can, can,
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 2: you know, depict this like he really understood women, He
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 2: really understood the pitfalls of being a woman. Because there
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 2: is that you're having an emotion, you're going to construct
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: reality based on an emotion with no Okay, what is
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 2: actual real, what's happening externally? And this is really hard
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 2: to depict because the visual medium really needs the external
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 2: to explain what's going on, Right, what's external to the characters?
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 2: You know, you see something out there and you react
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 2: to it. That's how visual mediums work. The characters in
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 2: the visual medium have to react to something external. We
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 2: have to watch them react to it. And what's happening
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 2: here is an entirely internal process where Natasha is building
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 2: a completely fictional reality based on what she feels, an
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 2: emotion that's fleeting. And the other thing is that she
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 2: gets very protective of this reality. So when her cousin
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 2: Sonia confronts her about this and says, Okay, this Anatoly
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 2: is not on above board. Why is he trying to
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 2: spirit you away in the night. If he was a
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 2: man of integrity, he would be asking your father for
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 2: your hand in marriage. He wouldn't be just dragging you
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 2: in the way in the middle of the night. And
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 2: Natasha gets absolutely irate over Sonia pointing out the obvious,
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 2: like that's an external thing. Her constructed reality based on
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 2: an emotion becomes something that she becomes so defensive about
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 2: if someone introduces any external factors, any external facts, she
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 2: rejects them and hates them for it. Right, and then
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 2: she goes into this this this incredibly negative spiral of
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 2: all of this. What ends up happening is her family
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 2: finds out, they kick Anatolia out, and and her friend
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 2: or the friend of the family is Pierre, who's the
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 2: actual protagonist of the of the of the book and
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 2: the and these shows. He tells her that Anatolia is
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 2: already married. He was gonna practice big and me with this,
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 2: and and the the character arc that Natasha has to
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 2: go through is that she has to recognize this about herself,
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 2: and she has to read realize what is a good
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 2: man to choose? And you cannot base it purely on
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 2: emotional factors on who gives you the tingles, who's love
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 2: bombing you currently Andrea may not be as effusive, it
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 2: may not be as capable of saying romantic stuff, but
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 2: he was a really solid guy and I respectable and upstanding.
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 2: She loses that relationship by the way, Andrea's like, yeah, nope,
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 2: I'm done gone, And Natasha actually deeply bitterly regrets it
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 2: and is, you know, regrets what she did and regrets
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 2: the nonsense she got into. And what ends up happening
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 2: is Andrea Andre goes to war because of course Napoleon
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 2: is invading Russia. That's the backdrop of the whole story.
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 2: He gets mortally wounded, and the way that it's presented
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 2: is it's almost like Key gets himself killed. Right there's
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 2: an explode. There's a bomb that comes down like a cannibal,
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 2: and it's it's diffuses that it hasn't exploded, and he's
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 2: just looking at it until it explodes, basically, so he
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 2: gets mortally wounded. He actually ends up in the same
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 2: medical tent as Anatoly, the rival, but at that point
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 2: he doesn't give a crap because he's mortally wounded, and
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 2: Anatoly is also He ends up getting his leg amputated
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 2: in the cot next to him, so he's watching this
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 2: guy just screaming. And of course Anatoly ends up dying anyway,
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 2: probably from an infection or gangrad but at the time,
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 2: like Andre has this, he's so close to death that
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 2: he no longer even cares about his resentment towards Anatoly,
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 2: so he actually holds the guy's hand as he's getting
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 2: his legal amputated. It's it's a pretty intense scene. And
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 2: then he goes back and Natasha eventually finds out that
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 2: he's dying, and he she goes to him and she
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 2: wants to get his forgiveness, but you know, and he
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 2: gives it to her. He doesn't give it to her,
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 2: you know, he just gives it to her because he's dying.
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 2: You know, he doesn't care anymore. And he actually even says,
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 2: you know, I was stupid to hold you to that standard.
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 2: But what was interesting, and this is the twenty sixteen
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 2: version of the movie, how they how they approached this
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 2: confrontation or this this reconciliation. They had Natasha say, don't
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 2: treat me like a child. I was responsible for my
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 2: actions and that doesn't change. You know, I appreciate your forgiveness,
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 2: but you can't say that it wasn't my fault because
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 2: it was. So she takes full responsibility for what she
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 2: did and for the nonsense she got up to, and
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 2: for that that thing that women do where they turn
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 2: their emotions into reality and then they get they absolutely
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 2: attack anyone who says yes. But there's some that you know,
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 2: this isn't reality. You're missing a whole bunch of facts.
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 2: Anatotally is married to someone else. He can't marry you,
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 2: you know, and so she takes full responsibility for it.
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 2: He eventually he you know, So she she regrets it.
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 2: She she she and she takes responsibility for it. They reconcile.
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 2: He dies and she's nursing him at the end, so
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 2: they all they have left of their relationship is the
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 2: days before he dies, and he takes care of hers.
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 2: She changes his wounds, feeds him, makes sure he's clean,
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 2: all of that. So she basically becomes one percent of
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 2: service to another human being, even though there's like he's
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 2: gonna have to let him go, and she knows it.
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 2: She knows he's gonna die. I mean, at one point,
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 2: you know, there's this hope, but then it dashed and
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 2: it's obvious he's gonna die, and she continues to tend
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 2: to him, and so she has this reconciliation with him,
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 2: and she grows through the process of being of service
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 2: with no benefit to herself, like the guy is not
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 2: going to survive and become her husband. She's doing this
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 2: solely because she regrets how she behaved, and she wants
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 2: to make sure his final moments are as comfortable as possible.
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 2: That's it. So that is her hero's journey. And then
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 2: at the end, finally she does end up getting married.
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 2: She marries Pierre, who watched this whole process, and honestly,
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 2: I think that she deserved it because she took full
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 2: responsibility and she was learned the lesson of selfless service
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 2: to someone else and learned the lesson of not getting
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 2: seduced by your own head cannon.
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 2: And then the final scene in the twenty sixteen version
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 2: is her saying, you know, the best part of love
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 2: is you know when you're it's not the first, it's
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 2: not falling in love, it's being in love. And at
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 2: that point in time, she's a wife and a mother,
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 2: she has multiple kids, and she's saying, this is the
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 2: best time in as, this is the best kind of love.
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 2: So she had that arc is going from a maiden
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 2: who almost chooses very badly. In fact, she would have
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 2: chosen if her whole family hadn't pulled her back from
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 2: the brink and said absolutely not, you are not touching
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 2: that bigness, you know, rat bastard, and then regretting realizing
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 2: what she did or almost did if her family hadn't interested,
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 2: regretting it, going through an act of complete selfless service
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 2: with someone who she's not going to be able to keep,
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 2: like he's going to die, he's going to be gone,
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 2: and then gaining the right to have another partner and
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 2: become that maternal character like to she learned those skills,
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 2: and then she became a mother. But it wasn't just
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 2: because time happened.
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, see what I'm saying.
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 2: Okay, all right, so that's what I have to say.
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 1: All right, I know that was quite long. No, it's
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 1: all right. Somebody does ask which version do you think
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 1: is the best of the of the story? Oh, Allison,
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 1: I don't hear you. Allison, your your volume? Your mic
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 1: is muted or something.
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 2: I'm muted.
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 1: I'm muted.
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry. Okay, which version of the story I was
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 2: in my own head canon? Sorry, guys, I was unmuted
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 2: in my head canon. I don't know. Everything was wrong.
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 2: I don't know what your the hell you guys are
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 2: saying the best version? Okay? Well, each one has its
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 2: own strength. I think the BBC's let's start with the
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 2: Soviet version. Well, okay, the Audrey Hepburn version is fun.
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 2: It's sort of an inspired by version. I wouldn't say
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 2: that it's a real accurate adaptation. I wouldn't even call
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 2: it an adaptation. It sort of gets you into the
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 2: whole thing. I wouldn't even consider I won't even let's
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 2: let talk about the Audrey Hepburn I think one of
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 2: the problems is that Audrey Hepburn is Audrey Hepburn, and
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 2: she was Audrey Hepburn in this epic, and I'm not
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 2: quite sure if she embodied Natasha. The next one is
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 2: the Soviet version. The Soviet version is very avant garden.
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 2: What it's trying to you, like, instead of presenting or
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 2: presenting a narrative, it sort of tries to give you
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 2: the feelings that the characters have. So for example, in
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 2: the intro where uh Pierre and Andre are at this
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 2: party and they're feeling very alienated because they don't quite
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 2: fit in with Russian high society, the Soviet version turns
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 2: the gossip of Russia, like the the gossip of the
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 2: character that in the book was sort of introducing the
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 2: whole story, turns their gossip into the the sounds from
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 2: like Charlie, you know, Charlie Brown while Mama Ma Ma Ma.
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 2: More so, it's like that these these two guys in
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 2: this kind of montage of confusion, with Ma mar Ma
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 2: Ma Ma Ma, Ma Ma Ma almost going in the
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 2: background to create this sense of on Wii and disconnect,
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 2: and I mean that's interesting, but he's also sort of alienating. However,
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 2: the battle scenes in the Russian version are the best.
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 2: I would say, like, I think they had the highest
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 2: the highest budget. Maybe the twenty sixteen is comparable in
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 2: some ways, but maybe not. I'd have to look at
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 2: them much more closely and time closer together. But yeah,
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 2: so the Soviet version is one if you want to
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 2: look at avant garde cinema and trying to generate a
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 2: sense of emotion rather than actually focusing on the story
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 2: and character interactions, that's interesting, and the battle thenes are
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 2: the best. The BBC one is probably the most comprehensive
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 2: and accurate to the plot. I think that one of
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 2: the best parts of the BBC one is the interaction
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 2: between Sonya Natasha and Natasha's mother Natalia. That that that
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 2: they really try to make their interaction very like, very
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 2: very let me give it get stakes and tension and conflicts.
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 2: So they tried to make it so that the domestic
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 2: themestic aspects of the story where could stand with the
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 2: with the more strategic and military aspects. Yeah, and I
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 2: think it worked because you can make things that are
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 2: more you know what it is? Why didn't I do this?
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 5: Is this not.
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 2: That my sure microphone isn't isn't it? This is just
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 2: the what the heck is going on? Here? Just a sec?
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 1: Okay, Well, while you're figuring that out, I got a
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 1: super chat from Albert Nata Retro. Uh, that's cool. He
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 1: gave us two dollars Canadian and said Zena had a
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 1: great hero's journey of redemption. I didn't watch the show, so,
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 1: but I'll go along with it. My mom watched it,
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 1: but I didn't watch it really, so I understanding though.
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 2: Okay, now what did you did you finish what you
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 2: wanted to say?
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I'm done?
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 2: Okay for some reason?
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 1: Okay here, Oh I can't hear you now?
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 12: Is that better?
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah? That's that sounds a lot better.
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 12: Is it better than what it was before?
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 1: I mean it was audible before we just did a
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 1: whole show.
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 12: But uh, okay, sorry guys, chrisp So that's good. That's good.
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 12: I can't use the earphone, so that was what was
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 12: going on. God, I'm stupid, all right. So to finish
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 12: my impressions of war and peace, the BBC version was
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 12: also really good for sort of explaining the context of
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 12: the war, and I think it had the most sympathetic
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 12: look at Napoleon.
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 2: And uh and the Russian general whose damn I will
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 2: probably birch sure, but I will attempt Kurtuzov.
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 12: Kurtuzov. Kurtuzov, Yeah, like Kurtisov is absolutely one of the
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 12: best characters in this entire story.
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 2: By the way I judged the I judged the adaptations
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 2: by how well they they.
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 12: They honor the memory of Kurtizov.
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 2: But anyway, the.
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 12: Two thousand and seven adaptation is just awful. It's appallingly bad.
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 2: The battle scenes or hollywood esque and like the worst
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 2: kind of B movie, sort of kind of Hollywood.
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 12: And the setups of the characters.
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 3: This is what they did.
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 12: They turned all of the female characters into martyrs, and
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 12: all of the setup of the redemption arcs for the
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 12: male characters, where often these weren't even redemption arcs in
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 12: the original. They were just you know, conflicts between characters.
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 12: So for example, Andre never really needed redemption, he was
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 12: just who he was. They they made it so.
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 2: That Andrea was more of a bastard. They made it
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 2: his father was a rat bastard, you know. And then
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 2: what they did is they had these male characters just
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 2: be awful and then at the end, like at last minute,
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 2: they would redeem themselves by telling the nearest woman how
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 2: right she'd already always been.
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 12: Like I'm like, that's terrible. That doesn't capture what Tolstoy
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 12: was trying to stay at all. So just avoid the
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 12: two thousand and seven version. I know there's some people
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 12: on like Reddit who think it's it's tolerable, but I
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 12: think it's because it tickles their ovaries. It's it's basically
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 12: flattery for women and soap operas. The twenty sixteen one
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 12: is the one is the one that I found the
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 12: most emotionally impactful. That doesn't mean it's the best one.
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 12: I just found found it to be the best storytelling.
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 2: Now you have to going in, you have to realize
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 2: that what the creator did is they focused. He focused
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 2: on those scenes and dialogues and characters that built up
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 2: the theme that he wanted to explore. Because Warm Piece
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 2: is like five hundred thousand words, you have to win
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 2: it down unless you want to do what the BBC did,
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 2: which was huge, Like I think it was eighteen hours.
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 12: So he did reduce it, and he reduced it to
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 12: those things that explored the theme of graciousness, forgiveness and reconciliation.
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 12: So if you're prepared to see that focus, then I
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 12: think you don't expect to have a one to one
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 12: adaptation of Warm Peace for the twenty sixteen, but it's
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 12: a good one. Like I think that that's a way
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 12: to go is to focus on one of the aspects
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 12: of a multi aspect, multifaceted work. In terms of that,
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 12: that's actually what one of the individuals who watched this
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 12: with me suggested is that that's a very good way
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 12: to approach an adaptation, is to just take one of
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 12: the themes and focus everything around it. And so that's
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 12: I think it was a very good one. And I
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 12: think if I were to rate them in terms of
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 12: the character arcs of Natasha, that one's number one, Number
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 12: two would be the BBC, number three would be the
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 12: Soviet version, and number four would be Audrey Hepburn's although
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 12: Audrey Hepburn just plays Audrey Hepburn.
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 2: And then I wouldn't put like there was no character
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 2: arc in the two thousand and seven Like they just
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 2: completely got rid of the idea that women need to
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 2: evolve at all, that women aren't perfect as they are,
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 2: and all the only evolution they need is for the
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 2: rat bastards to admit on their deathbeds that they were
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 2: right all along.
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 12: Okay, so that's that's my appraisal.
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 1: Well, I guess that's it. I mean I got nothing else.
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 12: So yeah, no, like we're good.
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 2: We do have some thank yous or at least one, yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay,
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 2: So I want to thank h Meredith G.
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 12: For putting one hundred dollars to the fundraising. That is,
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 12: let's see, that puts us uh five hundred and eighty
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 12: dollars away from the goal.
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 2: So we're doing pretty well. I mean, we've got two
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 2: days left, so hopefully we make it. If you do
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 2: want to help out, it's at feed the Badger dot
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 2: com slash support. If you want to wait for the
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 2: conclusion of whatever I'm doing with the posters, it should
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 2: be a few days and we'll just I'll just do
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 2: a continuance.
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 12: But anyway, if you want to just.
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 2: Support, to feed the Badger dot com slash just or
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 2: feed the Badger dot com slash support. And if you
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 2: want to send a message about anything that we said,
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 2: you want to suggest another show topic, you want to
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 2: make a comment and what I have described here, you
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 2: want to talk about Warren peace, you want to send
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 2: you can legitimately send us war and peace this time.
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 12: You want to send us your thoughts on.
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 2: Warren Peace, or on Heroins Journey or anything else you
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 2: can do. So feed Thebadger dot com slash just the
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 2: tip and we shall endeavor to respond to it at
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 2: the next reasonably on topic show.
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 12: So I guess that's it. Feed Thebadger dot com slash
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 12: support to support the show make sure we can continue
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 12: to keep talking about these things in the way that
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 12: we do. Feed the Badger dot com slash just a
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 12: tip to send us a message about anything we've talked
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 12: about in the show, or just a message all right
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 12: back to you, Brian.
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 1: Okay, Well, if you guys like this video, please sit
• 1:40:19
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• 1:40:24
  Speaker 1: think about what we discuss on the show today. You'll
• 1:40:27
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• 1:40:29
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• 1:40:33
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming on today's episode of
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 1: Maintaining Frame, and we will talk to you all in
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 1: the next video.
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 9: Yes, our machines, dude, Okay, they are literal machines. They
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 9: are talking point machines. They are impossible to fucking deal with,
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 9: especially if you have like especially if you have like
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 9: a couple of dudes who have good memory. On top
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 9: of that, too, holy shit, you're fucked