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Storytelling Coach Jim Woods on How to Craft Better Stories · The Daily Writer

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Rider.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: Each weekday, we bring you a short lesson that helps you live out the four practices of a great writer.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: Creativity, consistency, courage, and connection.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: Here on the weekend edition, we take a deeper dive into those topics through conversations with notable writers, as well as teaching that helps us apply what we're learning and also prepare for the week ahead.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: For more, you can visit us at dailywriterlife.com.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: A few days ago, I was watching some YouTube videos that summarized the recent Disney Investor presentation.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: And at this meeting, they unveiled all the upcoming shows on Disney Plus that'll be part of the Star Wars and Marvel universes.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: And as I learned about all these amazing new shows, one single thought crossed my mind.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: We can't get enough stories.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Whether or not you are a Star Wars or Marvel fan, one thing is really clear today.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: People have a massive appetite for stories.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: We see it in the number of books being published, in the number of streaming services, and the sheer volume of stories that are being generated today.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's critical that we as writers continue to develop our skills as storytellers.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: So whether you're writing fiction or nonfiction or whatever type of communication you're doing, storytelling is an absolutely essential skill.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why I'm so honored to have my good friend Jim Woods on the show today to help us develop our storytelling chops.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Jim is a novelist, story coach, and editor, and he's worked with many authors over the years, including some authors whose books have been on the New York Times bestseller list.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Jim is the host of the Finish Your Book Podcast, and he's also the founder of Story Crafting, a coaching service that helps you craft your story.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: Now, storytelling is one of my very favorite topics, so Jim and I had a lot of fun in this interview geeking out over stories.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: And Jim walks us through several questions such as these.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: What's the simplest way to create a story?
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: What separates a great story from a pretty good story?
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: How can you fix your story?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: How can you build a solid writing habit?
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: And much more.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this conversation was a blast.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: I learned a lot, and of course, I always love talking with Jim.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think you're really going to enjoy this too.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: So let's get right to the conversation.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: Mr.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: Jim Woods, it is fantastic to have you back on the podcast.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is your third appearance.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: So congratulations.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's exciting.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Kent.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: I feel I feel like I should get some kind of prize.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what that prize would be, but uh, I'll I'll think of something, I'm sure.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Fresh notebook a culverts gift card.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: Culver's and a fresh notebook would be a dream come true.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: I I would write it in the culverts, probably.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: We weren't culvers a couple nights ago.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: It was really good.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: I shouldn't have said that probably.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: So we're here to talk about storytelling.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: You are the story master, and that's an official term that I'm bestowing upon.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, thank you.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: Story master.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds like a Jim Henson movie from the 80s, doesn't it?
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: It does.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: I picture a wizard.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: Story master.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: I picture I picture a wizard and possibly Nicolas Cage being in it too.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's Nicolas Cage.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: He's in everything else, uh, so why not?
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, although if it's in the 80s, you're gonna have Nicolas Cage and you've got to have Sylvester Stallone in there somewhere and Arnold.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: And a and a Kenny Logan soundtrack, yes, or Phil Collins, one of the two.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: You can have a song by one of those two.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: A movie studio thing going here.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm telling you.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: So, storytelling.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we are here to talk about uh stories, and as I mentioned, you are um definitely a master at this.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: You understand stories and you write stories and you help people with their stories.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: So let me start out with this question: what is the easiest way to create a story?
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because we make this sometimes a very complicated sort of a deal, but what is the simplest way to begin creating a story?
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think step one is to just look around you, like where you're at, like location-wise, what's in your environment.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: And once you're like aware, like, okay, I'm I'm in my home office, you're in your home office, like, okay, well, if that's not inspiring, you know, start thinking, okay, where am I in my neighborhood?
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: What's interesting?
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then just start asking the question, what if?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I look at your um at the library at the all the books behind you, Kent.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the what ifs for me is like, what if happens if if Kent gets, you know, all those books come toward Kent?
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: What happens then, right?
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm thinking, you know, and that's literally a scene in Ghostbusters with all the books behind, right?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, but what if is such a story like power fuel?
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like you ask what if, and you can just stories just come almost automatically.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: I was still living in Nashville at the time, and the my uh cell phone wouldn't work, and my wife's cell phone wouldn't work.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I was just thinking, okay, what if all cell phones don't work?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I was just immediately I was thinking that question, I was like, ooh, that's kind of an interesting story idea.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you could you could say, okay, well, what if internet doesn't work?
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, all of a sudden you're just like exploring all these story ideas, and almost all of our favorite movies, Kent, they started with a little question, what if?
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Jaws, what if a a shark terrorized some people in a small New England town?
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it just what if you can ask that question, and and it's just like ideas just start flowing to you.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's that's really easy.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that's really easy.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I haven't had any caffeine yet today.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: What um I was gonna say that's really insightful because pretty much any novel, any any popular movie or any story, you can boil down to that idea of what if.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like one of my favorite movies is The Godfather.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: So you could pose it as a what-if question.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: What if a very six successful quote unquote, what if a very powerful, let's say that a powerful crime family had a youngest son and he started out as good.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: What if he actually became worse than his father over the course of the story?
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess any story can be posed as a what-if question.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think so.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: And and you don't have to just apply it to movies and books.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: You could even just say, What if I documented my story of how I lost some weight?
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: Or what if I documented the story of how I got out of debt?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, those personal stories like that can be really powerful because if you tell the whole story, like even those ugly parts that you kind of want to censor, that you kind of don't want to share, I think people latch onto that even more because it's like the the individual that went bankrupt or the individual that you know had a serious weight problem, and the doctor was telling them if you don't lose weight, you're going to die.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: This is like, oh my gosh, back to story.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what are the stakes?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: The stakes are huge.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it's easy to self-censor the story and be like, no, let's make this nicer for you know every audience out there.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: Let's raid this G, you know.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: And the truth is it might be a PG 13 or an a rated R story.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: And you might you might really want to tell it that way to tell a better story.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think separates a great story from a pretty good story?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's that relatability.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's I think it's that telling the whole story and not censoring.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's showing a lot of care and intentionality.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: A good story is something that you enjoy once, but a great story is something that you want to keep revisiting over and over.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: Man, that's a good point because going back to the Godfather analogy, I've seen that movie dozens and dozens of times.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: What movie have you probably seen the most?
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think it's Home Alone.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think it's Home Alone because I grew up with it and I saw it in the theater, and I was like 11 when it came out, and the you know, the protagonist, he's like eight or nine years old.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I just related to that a lot, and it was like the ultimate adventure in some ways, because it was it really hit all the beats, and it really like you can tell looking back now, it's like they really took their time crafting this and making a story engaging from so many different characters, not just really one character, but there's so many engaging characters in it.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good point.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: I had never really thought about Home Alone as kind of one of the amazing movies, you know, but but it is really well crafted.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's die hard for kids.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: So if someone is is crafting a story, whether it's a short story, a novel, uh something else, how can they be sure that their story is working?
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: Are there some signposts that that you could give us or indicators that they that would help us to know the story is working or the story is not working?
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think the first and foremost is setups and payoffs.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: That is like the best way to just say, okay, what did I set up?
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: What was the payoff?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I think it's really clear looking back.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's like if you know, uh Chekhov's gun is a good example where it's like if a gun is shown in the first act, it must be shown in the third.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, even a movie like The Dark Knight, I mean, it goes from a dark opening to the end is light.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I I've I've kind of taken that trick a little bit, and even some of my own stories, it's like, ooh, okay, so the beginning and end are opposite, really.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, if a boy is, you know, wants to be alone at the beginning of the movie, they reunite him at the end with his family, and he wants to be with them.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: So it really shows that change too with your character if if all the setups, you know, are later paid off.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good point.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Now I know you just finished uh writing a novel.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: So how did you think about with your own story?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: Were there were there things that you had to go back and kind of plant in the first part that pay off in the the the later part of the story, or how did you wrestle with that with your own book?
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'll be honest, Kent.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think I really planned the ending first and kind of worked my way backwards.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that was a huge concept for me because I kept in mind that image at the end of the story, like, okay, how do you get there?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I have to be honest, I mean, The Godfather was an absolute influence for me.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's that's probably my all-time favorite movie.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, Home Alone might be in the top three, but Godfather's number one, and it's just such a transition of character.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: And if you really study great stories, especially in the same genre, there is so much right in front of you.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: If you're just paying attention and you like really start dissecting it even more, like just paying attention, just watching is one thing that's like step one, but like step two is like mapping it out, writing it down, analyzing the characters.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not talking like massively in depth, I'm talking like just jot down a couple sentences.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: What's their motivation?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: What are they thinking?
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: How are they feeling?
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: And The Godfather is probably you know the ultimate movie with that that opening scene.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: You have Vito as the Godfather, and then the end you have Michael as the godfather.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: And it's those perfect bookends to a story.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, some stories might not have that bookend.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's not always every story has that, but I think most memorable stories do have it.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think most that you're like, wow, that was great.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, I'm ready to watch it again.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's there's something satisfying about that, about having that beginning and ending is almost like two sides of a coin.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it is, you know, in the fact that the beginning of the movie is and the end are in the same place in Vito's office.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Now, of course, it's Michael's office, right?
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: What would you say your favorite scene is in The Godfather?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, I think it's in the diner.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's the diner with Michael, because Pacino, like you can see the his emotions changing.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: You can see his how nervous he is, the tension, you know, pulling the gun off of the toilet, going out there, you know, with the police chief right there and the Turk, and and like you can feel the tension.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's just it's like a perfect scene, and it's like the ultimate midpoint, really, because after he pulls that trigger, there's no going back.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and I think that's why I love it so much.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's like complete change.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's like his character changed dramatically right then and there.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like after that point, yes, he can be a cruel, you know, cruel, emotionless, evil Don.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: He can be such a in the very beginning of the movie, we didn't even think it was in him, but there was this amazing transition, and it might have been, I would say, in the scene where he gets beat up and he gets the fat lip.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I agree.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: Where he showed bravery, you know, when he stood out there and said, act like you're holding a gun and he was protecting, you know, his father.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think that was the scene where it's like, okay, he's brave.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we knew he was brave, he's a soldier, but we didn't see any of the fighting.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: We're assuming he's brave, but we saw it in that scene.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it was like, okay, he's really brave, and he's really smart too.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then we're like, okay, it almost was like it was almost like piling coins in the bank, and as far as like in that character, it's like, okay, bravery check, smart check, um, educate.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like all these little things you're like filing away as the viewer, as the reader, too, because the book is incredible too.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: The book is that's my favorite fiction book of all time.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: Nice.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: And it's rare that you have a movie that is so good, but a book that the movie's based on that is so good as well.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't know when that's ever happened, really.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: What maybe Gone with the Wind or The Wizard of Oz or something?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: I I can name a few.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think Fight Club was one of mine right there.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think Fight Club, I think the book and the movie are both um incredible.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: I will say though, it's like we're always a little biased because if we love the movie, as long as the book is consistent with the movie, we're gonna be a little bit biased, I think, sometimes.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think the road was good.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying it was absolutely great, but I think it was I think it was really good.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: I know there was a couple others off the top of my head.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: I can't I can't think of the movie being as good as the book.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Requiem for a Dream.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: That'd be another.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: But I know a lot of people are not a big fan of that movie.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: They're like, oh my, I'm not doing that again.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: I love it because there I've never seen a movie like it before or read a book remotely like it either.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: Did you ever read No Country for Old Men by the way?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, and that's we've talked about that before.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's that's a great one too.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's really even better than The Road.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think one thing I've noticed about that book, story-wise, is that they have that shift of protagonist, also as seen in Psycho, where I didn't realize I I more recently saw Psycho, the original Hitchcock one, not the Vince Vaughn like 1998 one.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it'd been a long time since I, you know, seen or heard the story, and I was like, whoa, that shift is exactly what Cory McMcarthy did in No Country for Old Men with that shifting protagonist.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's you know, that's one of the most true to form movies and novels.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's like they're very similar.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's a good point.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of my favorite movie scenes of all time is from No Country for Old Men, whenever um what what's the villain's name?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: Sugar?
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh he's got that such such that weird haircut, yeah, you know, from the early 80s.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: And he goes into this this little gas station in the middle of nowhere, and he has that conversation with the guy about um, you know, do you live in this do you live in this house out back?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: And does your wife own this gas station and did you marry into it?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: And they just have this very bizarre conversation.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's so it's like that scene of the godfather, it's so filled with tension because this guy has no idea about he has no idea of the evil that he's talking to.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think too, I think what I think the real key in this equation, Kent, is this the stakes or death?
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's life or death.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't know it, and he doesn't know it.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it makes me think of even Fight Club with Tyler Durden as he's holding a gun on the convenience store clerk.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's really the same scene.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, are you um gonna go change your life or not?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yes or no.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: If you do, I'll let you live.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: If you're not, I'm just gonna kill you right now.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: The old man didn't really have that, you know, that shift of okay, I'm gonna go pursue my dream, but it's it's a very, very similar scene because one it was luck, the other it was intention.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, it's all you know, very similar.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: So if we're working on a story, um, how do we how do we fix our story if there's something wrong with it?
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's something in the beginning, maybe it's the characterization, maybe it's the the story structure.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: How do we how do we fix a story that's a broken?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta go back to the basics, you gotta look at it like a house.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: Think of a house.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: You got the foundation, you got, you know, I'm gonna for it for uh illustration purposes, I think bricks make a lot of sense.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Look at the bricks, you know, that you have in place.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Are they actually in place?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: Do the do the chapters fit, right?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, are you opening the story like the story has already started versus okay, and now I will start a story?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: There's a big difference because if you're saying, and now I will start a story, it's gonna be boring.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be like waking up and getting a shower and eating breakfast, and you're gonna lose people at the very beginning.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: But if you start with a little, you know, some tension in there, you know, like in breaking bad, you have Walter White.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: Guess what?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: He he finds out that he has cancer, like in the very first episode.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's the big catalyst for him.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: And you need like that that quick hook.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's I I that's probably more important than anything else because you can always write the ending later, but you need a really fast, quick hook, like instant stakes, instant tension, or people won't make it to the end.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that you know, you can always break it down to you know, act by act.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you could say beginning, middle, and end.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: You can say act one, act two, act three.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if you want to consider the midpoint in there, just say act, you know, one, act two A, act two B, and that midpoint's the dividing line, and then just have act three.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Looking at the beginning is probably by far because you're gonna set up things wrong if you have a wonky beginning.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say that's almost always the first thing.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then I would look toward the midpoint as like the um big pivoting point.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, let's go back to The Godfather, we love that movie.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: All right, let's say Michael botches that hit on the Turk and the police chief.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: If he botches that hit, the whole story completely changes.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, because guess what?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: Sonny is now the Don, right?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Sonny is the one in charge.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: Michael, maybe he would be the Don eventually, but we don't know.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: The whole thing changes completely.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, let's be honest.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it Sonny could have been he could have been Don for a while.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: He he might have been okay.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he was a bit of a hothead character, they portray that really well.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: He's a hothead, he overreacts, he's really emotional.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, he he had Tom Hagen as his conciliary giving him good advice.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: If he follows Tom, Sonny could have been the Don for quite a while.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: And Michael, shoot, he might have just gone into olive oil sales, right?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then right.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this talk about a shift.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's like there is no godfather two, there is no godfather three.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, Mike, Mikey and and Fredo are probably selling some olive oil, and that's the end of the story.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's very true.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's very true.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: What are some ways um that can develop some better writing habits around all this because you know you're great with story but you're also many people don't realize that you are really good with habits and productivity and you know writing every day and really having a a great system for doing that so what are some of the the secrets of your productivity when it comes to writing well I would say for me a lot of it is having a super clear goal in mind that's really important because clarity is like writing fuel it's like story structure plus clarity you can do anything you really want to do as a writer but if you're if you're not sure if you haven't you know developed any writing muscle so to speak I think you have to play to your strengths and by that I mean maybe it's maybe your your schedule is pretty wonky.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean you could be a single you know stay at home you know working parent you know with virtual school for your kids or something even if your schedule is absolutely bonkers you could still write on your phone when you you know have a free moment and I I understand it's like oh my goodness this adding this more more to do I don't know about that I think people can view it as like oh this is another burden no I'd say no this is a creative release and you could even just journal about your day if that's what it means to get you start writing and just processing your thoughts because being honest with yourself is really important as a writer and you're also learning more and more about how you work maybe it means writing for 15 minutes as opposed to you know watching some YouTube or Netflix.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe even you're wanting to take the phone with you and write on while you go to the bathroom let's be honest I mean most people they're just gonna watch YouTube or you know do something else that's or social media maybe that's it I think the key though is to you know just be really honest with yourself.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: And once you've done that once you say okay I can do this I can write for 15 minutes a day or an hour a day then you can start to build from there and that's the you know amount of time you know the window of time you have but then you really want to focus on like same tool.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay if you write on your phone that's kind of dangerous.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: I would really prefer it be on a piece of paper because you know you're one tap away from a lot of distraction but if you're writing on your phone okay but make sure you have all the other apps really buried and hidden and have your writing app like you know top very top number one like on your homepage and nothing else.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: And use the same tool don't mix it up.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: Don't say oh I'm gonna write on my laptop I'm gonna write on my iPad I'm gonna write on my phone I'm gonna write in my journal because you're just gonna confuse your brain and uh that same tool is really important.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: It does help a lot to write at the same time and if you don't have the flexibility if you're like dude seriously I I've got so much going on write in the same afternoon right in the morning right in the evening um same time you can make that flexible within reason and then also you know you've got the same tool same time same place I think that helps too you prefer not to write on like the couch where you normally watch Netflix I can say that personally because it it's harder.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good tip.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know I mean I always compare it to this it's like you don't go cook in the bathroom you don't nobody cooks in the bathroom unless you like have a really tiny house and but that's another story right but you don't want to go you don't go cook you don't do laundry in the bathroom so don't make it harder for yourself you know you want to work in the same place and that can really reinforce it.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's like the focus triangle same place same time same tool and I'm not necessarily a write every single day kind of guy I don't say that for everyone but I think you really need to write more than you don't you know more than you don't write and I think for many people that 15 minute we we we can always hit that 15 minute window.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah absolutely 15 minutes is something anybody can do oh yeah what is something I I like to throw this kind of question once in a while what's something that you wish somebody had told you five years ago about writing or 10 years ago 10 years ago that's a really really good 20 let's go all the way back 20 oh my goodness that it takes a lot of rewriting to write well I wish someone would have told me that I think that marketing is so important and visuals as far as like what image you have what cover you have for your book is so important.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we can get a little bit precious as writers with our stuff and I'm guilty of this I think everyone is it from time to time it's like oh this is my baby I I I want to just keep my baby close and not ever you know take the baby outside and you know explore the world and get dirty or anything.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: I want to keep it protected and really close and maybe I'll I'll share this with just a few select people but stories are meant to be shared and we need to share it more.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think don't be afraid to market your stuff to share your work that's one thing I wish more people would have told me because we can really self-sabotage by not sharing our stories.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: Man that is so true you got to publish you got to put it out there do that's hard to do it's okay it's scary I get it I mean it's really scary.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's like okay I'm gonna put this up and now I'm gonna get attacked you know or all these things fear tells us but it's it's not a story unless you share it it's just kind of like something like a it's almost like a journal like you didn't share with anybody nobody else knows about it.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: Man that is so true it's it's like that that image of you know a writer dies and their kids come upstairs their adult kids and they find these drawers full of novels that maybe they or short stories that they wrote but they never shared I mean how tragic would that be that would be it would be yeah and I think I think too and I I think the one thing I I heard more recently from a writer he's a screenwriter named Justin Warren he said you know why do we why do we tell stories why do we write stories and he goes to heal and I said whoa that's huge because like our stories unite us and share so much of the things that are common with us they share our flaws they share our triumphs and victories and things and we all need more healing we all need more hope and you never you never think oh my gosh well I wrote this thing and it's actually going to help people but once you put it out there you'll see that it does and it might not I mean it to me the numbers don't matter it's like as long as it's more than one you know or as long as it's at least one person um it's all it's all you know gravy from that point on right it's all good and we can sometimes get a little caught up in the numbers I wish I would have I wish somebody would have told me a while ago and said don't worry so much about you know trying to be like some other writer or someone else like just keep focusing on being the best possible version of you.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like that would have saved me hours and days and probably years because online we're gonna compare by default we're just gonna keep comparing and um I think for writers often we're just gonna want to wish we were somebody else.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean yeah want to wish we were you know Francis Ford Coppola or JD Salinger or whoever and it's it's like there's no winning in that and you just kind of you don't you don't get to share your stories and enjoy them and you know enjoy the process you're just gonna always like compare and you know contrast between you and someone else exactly exactly well before we start to wrap this up uh this has been awesome by the way thank you um what are some books that have have really impacted you in your creative life or in your storytelling or any books that you're reading right now that you're really excited about yeah well the wonder switch um by Harris the third that's one and I actually got to help him a little bit with that that one impacted me a lot because wonder is really powerful and it just kind of made me think more about mindset and mindset is huge.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: I should have answered with your earlier question with mindset because mindset's so powerful I can I think a lot of what I said with comparison can be boiled down to mindset like having a positive mindset or a you know um or a scarcity mindset you know having a growth mindset and uh the catcher in the rise always a favorite I haven't read that one for a while but I love that one that's such a good book I I really like steel like an artist I really like that because it's so childish but in a good way it has like a lot of joy in it and fun and always makes me think of different things.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes I I'm grabbing these books because I have them nearby but I I always like revisiting certain books.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um another more recent one that I've enjoyed a lot was uh what was the name of it Miles from Nowhere by Namie Moon N-A-M-I-M-U-N miles from nowhere I've not heard of that it's it's unbelievable it's like it it's so well written and I I did my research on this writer Namie Moon and she it took her like eight years to write the book it was it was very similar to Catcher in the Rye it just it was something she worked on for a long long time and I just the her approach I mean she had so much patience and care as she crafted her book.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: It was really really impressive I don't think I could ever work that way where it's like this took me years and years and you know spending all day working on one paragraph but I really enjoyed it and as far as like a from a story standpoint I just I really enjoyed it.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's gonna influence some of my future books because it was so well structured.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: Gotcha I love that I have to check that one out that sounds fascinating.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's pretty fun and it's it's different because it's written from a teenage teenager perspective and it's a female and she she really it's it's almost like a bunch of short stories that she connected together.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I I just I was like oh my goodness you don't have to even like it really shook up my brain as far as story structure.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a bunch of stories but they're and they're in order but they're not necessarily like day one day two day three it's more of a this happened one month this happened three weeks later this happened two days later and the timeline doesn't even matter as much which I was like oh my gosh this is a breath of fresh air because you can kind of jump around and you know tell a good story without you know having a really really specific timeline.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah that's cool.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well Jim this has been a blast thanks so much for chatting about storytelling today uh now I know you have some lots of cool things um available for listeners so how can they connect with you and your work one of the best ways would be um on Twitter I'm active on Twitter and I love engaging with other writers on there I'm Jim Woods Writes on Twitter.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: You can check out my website which is storycrafting.net like the word story and then crafting just spell like that um storycrafting.net and uh yeah I absolutely love to talk to any writers because I think we can all learn from each other and you know support each other.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's really a cool community.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: Oh absolutely well Jim thanks so much it's been a blast I appreciate it.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you Kent appreciate you too well I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Jim Woods my main takeaway from this episode is that storytelling is a skill we have to constantly develop.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: I believe it's the number one skill for all communicators.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: I know it's something that I'm continuing to work on all the time and I encourage you to do it as well whether it's through watching movies, reading books about storytelling or just watching TV shows and breaking down the story structure to see how stories are actually constructed.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: I also encourage you to get in touch with Jim if you'd like some help figuring out your story, especially if you're working on fiction.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: He is a real master at helping people with this and he's definitely been a huge encouragement to me over the years.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: You can find Jim at his story crafting site which is storycrafting.net his personal website which is jimwoodswrites.com or on Facebook.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: Make sure to also check out his Write Your Book podcast.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: And of course I'll have links to those in the show notes.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: And also I would be extremely grateful if you would consider taking just a moment to leave an honest review of this podcast on iTunes.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: Those reviews are extremely helpful for reaching new listeners and I read and I appreciate every single review.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: And if you know anybody who would enjoy this episode please consider sharing it with them.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: As always remember that your writing has the power to change lives and I'll see you in the next episode