Latest / The Next Reel Film Podcast / Shadow
Transcript
- *This transcript is produced using transcription software and reviewed for quality. Despite our best efforts, some passages may be incomplete or contain errors due to audio quality or software limitations.* Pete Wright: I'm Pete Wright. Andy Nelson: And I'm Andy Nelson. Pete Wright: Welcome to The Next Reel when the movie ends. Andy Nelson: Our conversation begins. Pete Wright: Shadow is over. How will you survive without firm steps Will we ever know? No, because everybody dies. Andy Nelson: It sounds like a workout regimen. Pete Wright: It does. Andy Nelson: You you must have firm steps. Pete Wright: It does. It's like yeah, it's like jazzercise and Taibo and then firm steps. Andy Nelson: I love it, I love it. Pete Wright: Yeah. Okay, here we go. This is Shadow, and it came out after after the Great Wall. Remember The Great Wall? Andy Nelson: I remember we had a lot more fun with it and it's easy to m laugh at now, but we still had fun with it. And actually I actually want to go back and revisit it because My memory now is that that it's an easy one to make fun of, but I'm like, but I think we still liked it. Pete Wright: I think it's actually age. It was such a Hollywood disappointment, right? And that's the unfortunately that's what's remembered by it about it. And I think the problem was. Not that Matt Damon was bad, but that Matt Damon was in it, and it was kind of shocking to people And it became laughable before people even saw the movie. There's a lot of crazy stuff going on in that movie, if I remember. And we had we had fun, even though we we were kind of mad at it at the time. So this movie anyway was an apology, I think, for for the Great Wall Andy Nelson: The Great Wall, as we talked about in that episode, was was Zhang Yimou. being wooed perhaps by Hollywood to kind of try making something that might we could say work as a sort of crossover film between kind of like the Chinese audiences, the US audiences. I mean it was Written by Max Brooks, Edward Zwick, Tony Gilroy, Marshall Herskovitz, like a lot of people with names that we recognize were involved in writing the script for The Great Wall. And Universal released it over here. So it was Zhang's chance to try try doing something that was going to maybe perhaps move him in the direction of of other international filmmakers who have had a chance to make something in the US. Oftentimes those don't always work out so well. So that was his shot and then he immediately went back. to do Shadow because I guess he needed to get something to again show I can actually make a great movie that's gonna make some money. And that's where we are. So here we are with Shadow. Pete Wright: And here we are. Now you had not seen it. I watched it a few weeks ago and have been just waiting. for you to watch it because I c I just can't wait to hear what you think about what he accomplished with this film. Andy Nelson: It's a fascinating film, and I mean it's it's interesting to see Zhang Yimou in this period of his career. And to be fair, like Zhang has a fairly robust filmography, lots of films, and I feel like I've only hit a lot of the more big ones. And I feel like I need to watch a lot more of his work to really get a sense as to the ebbs and flows of his of of what he's doing. Because this feels like his his early career felt like he was making more intimate stories. about people in oftentimes women in difficult situations because of just the the w nature of China and how it was structured and how they treated women. And then starting with Hero, which we have talked about on this show, in two thousand two, he seemed to shift into not just the Wuxia and types of films, like the big action spectacle, the gorgeous, gorgeous, sumptuous production design, cinematography, , you know, the costumes, everything came together to tell these massive stories, but also It really seemed to be a shift for him to start pushing to tell more historical sorts of stories. I mean, Hero, House of Flying Daggers. maybe not the Great Wall so much, but certainly this film are all pulling from historical elements in Chinese history. It's not necessarily made to be like true stories per se, but they are elements of actual Chinese history. And I wonder if like that shift in his push to to tell these sorts of stories, whether it's Wuxia or not, like a few years before this he also did the The Flowers of War with Christian Bale, and that also felt less wuxia, more historical action, I suppose you could say. But it felt like he was wanting to tell these Stories, I don't know. How do you read it? Is he doing it because we know, as we've talked about on the show, he's gotten in trouble with some sh some films in the past where he's been banned from filmmaking for a number of years. or the film h itself has been banned for long periods of time. Now he's in this period and I'm like, is he just doing this because he knows these are safe? And he knows that he can do shadow and make money with it. I don't know. It's a but it's like I love that we're in this period of his career where he's doing these action spectacles. where he's digging into interesting elements of Chinese history and he uses them as opportunities to display just how powerful and creative a filmmaker he is. And that's really what we get with this movie. Pete Wright: Yeah. I I think you're right. I th what I I I feel like this is a really obvious observation. Given this movie, especially backing up to you know, the movie we just talked about, House of Flying Daggers. I see Yimou as a someone who wants to live in dynamic range Right. And it's easy to look at dynamic range from the perspective of color, palette, right? Because this movie ha has an extreme dynamic range, as extreme as the dynamic range in House of Flying Daggers or Hero, it's just the other direction, right? It's just removing and desaturating all the color from the from the film. But also character, right? He's very much looking at narratives and stories of people who live at the extremes of w one end or another, culturally, tonally, temporally, a and even with regard to color. You look at to live, he's looking at characters who are on the fringes not in sort of the moneyed middle or the really rich, , but that you know, the moneyed middle is kind of the muddy place that he doesn't exist. He he's looking at people who are impoverished intentionally because of the state changes over the course of time. fascinating story. We get into Wuxia and it celebrates with color, but he's showing that look, this also s we can also celebrate Wuxia's style and we can do it in a way that y that you've never seen before, but it's still Wuxia. I think what I wanted was maybe a little bit more I there's so much in this movie that works for me. Let me just Say that. I I really enjoy my time with this movie. I think it's super clever. I love the umbrellas. We've gotta talk about umbrellas I love the you know the cinematography, the choice to shoot, not digitally desaturating, but to shoot in black and white is excellent. I think it's kind of a gimmick having our our principal character lose weight. Like I get it. I I I'm I'm not sure the movie would have been was made dramatically better by that by that conceit rather than just, you know, put him in a different outfit or something. I think it I think they could have handled that. I it m maybe that was a bridge too far. But generally the movie really works for me. And I also found myself wanting a little bit more in terms of the story, or maybe a little bit more, you know, Park Chan-wook, right? I wanted by the end, I wanted more Oldboy. as these guys are a as we have the the retribution angle take hold and I got you know I did I didn't get quite an enough of the grit that I wanted. It's still a pretty clean Film. Narratively, it's pretty straightforward, and I wanted a little bit more yeah, a little bit more grit But overall, I had a blast watching this thing. It's every frame is just an act of cleverness in in putting this together. And it is To me, it it's vastly better than dagger for that reason alone. I just enjoyed looking at something really different in the Wuxia space. So that's where I am. That's a lot of things. Andy Nelson: Well, just to clarify, because you said they shot it in black and white. They didn't shoot it in black and white. They shot it in color. Pete Wright: No, I know they didn't. No, I I didn't say that. Andy Nelson: It's it sounded like you said they shot it in black and white. Pete Wright: No, I well I if I if it sounded like that to you, I did not intend that. I'm very aware that they shot it in color and they desaturated the set. Andy Nelson: Yeah. Right. Pete Wright: And I said specifically that they didn't desaturate digitally is an act of great creativity, right? That's it's amazing how they how they did this so and and so committed to the bit. I think it's awesome. Andy Nelson: Well, not taking it even further than that, where the sets were completely designed black, white, and gray, the costumes were designed black, white, and gray. Every time they're outdoors, Zhang Yimou purposefully made sure that they were filming on rainy overcast days. to drain the color further from the environment and everything. And and so every every time like this is it's raining through the entire movie. Like it's always, always wet. in this in this entire story. And that further drains all the color. And and it's great to see like, yeah, there are a few shots where you can see like trees in the distance. you can get a hint of the green there, but it's really very muted. And that's what they do. They purposefully make it so that you're just not seeing other than like skin tones and the big one though is blood. Like we're definitely Pete Wright: So much blood, yeah Andy Nelson: we're definitely seeing all of the blood. They don't necessarily desaturate the reds for any of the blood. And so I I think that was a very creative design to kind of tell the story this way where In a story about a shadow, about a doppelganger, doppelganger is probably the wrong word, but a lookalike will just say We're we're telling this story that and again he wanted it to look like Chinese inkwash paintings, but using this this secret body double Where he's living in the shadows, all of this, like telling a story that has this tone, I thought was actually incredibly creative, kind of creating this unique monochromatic look through the whole thing. Pete Wright: Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's I mean there's a lot to celebrate, and that's that's what I mean. Like it's so fun to look at. that it's easy to it's easy to get lost in the movie. And that's okay. That's enough. It's already enough movie for me before the umbrellas come out. And you know, and the story of of the girl teaching you know teaching gentleness as a way to be offensive in the in battle. Like all of that it really works for me, but it was already good. Andy Nelson: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's an interesting story, and again, this is kind of based on the script is based on there's a TV series. called Romance of the Three Kingdoms, which is based on a 14th-century novel, which is called one of the four great classical novels of Chinese literature. which itself i is based on something from third century historical records. There was a TV series that the that was based on the book back in twenty ten, and this screenplay is loosely based on that. So these characters in the story do map to real characters in this Three Kingdoms history of the invasion of the Jing province is kind of what we're seeing in the story here. And so to that end, There's a lot of palatial intrigue of politicking as far as like the king of Pei. There's like these three kingdoms that it sounds like from the opening crawl Two of the kingdoms, the one run by Yang Cang and the one run by King Pei, have destroyed the third kingdom. And now it's just these two. And so you're kind of we're coming in at this point where it's just kind of like the two of them as they're kind of like each striving to run the Jing province. In the scope of the story, where we're following this this shadow who is shadowing, we should just say, the commander of that works under King Pei, he looks enough like him to take care of like all of the stuff that has to happen because the real commander had been injured by Yang Cang with I don't know some sort of poisoned dagger, like a Nazgûl blade. I'm not sure what he was wielding, but he got he got pierced and it's made him age and he's like decrepit and falling apart. Pete Wright: Yes. That's good. Andy Nelson: And so now He's had this shadow in his life since they were children. I I want to talk about that because there's a lot of questions I have about that element of the story But now this this shadow, who is posing as the commander, is kind of making decisions on his own as far as like essentially declaring war, not in so many words, but declaring war against Yang Cang so that they can get back at get the Jing city back by saying, let's have a duel. We're gonna have a duel. Whoever wins gets the city is basically what happens. And King Pei is incredibly pissed off. So I don't know, how do how does all it's very Shakespearean, like all of this grand Pete Wright: Yes. Andy Nelson: political machinations of trying to run these two kingdoms. How does that all play for you? Does it work? Does it does it make sense? Do we get enough for our understanding? Pete Wright: It's interesting to hear the way you ask that question because I do not know how you would answer the same question. To m to me, it is You know, I mean, if you've seen Hamlet, you kinda are able to truck with the dynamic a little bit, right? That this is a the shadow, the sun, the you know, the liege. ends up sub s subverting the puppet handed leadership and or the puppeteering leadership. And I think that's the I mean, that's the whole story. It's I'm sick of the way I'm sick of this relationship. I'm sick of bidding. And I'm gonna go ahead and you know, we've you've put my face in the role of, you know, agency here, and now I'm going to take it. That's it. That's the that's the emotional arc is and do you as it does that serve as an able audience avatar? Do you feel stronger as an audience member watching that happen. And to me I think it plays. I and and this is a you know, all of this plays out in kind of again, speaking of muddy things, there's a muddy middle of this movie that I think a lot of critics say slows the thing down. It plays for me. I actually was right along with it. I think the the political angle is the one that I found myself trucking right along with. I'm I'm interested in it. And it makes the duel on the platform, which is a long duel one of import that means something to the to the overall arc of the film. There's it's not empty because we're watching this guy take take what is his if you believe that it's his. Andy Nelson: Well, and and it's interesting. I the shadow element is such an interesting element added to the story from what I can tell. I I have not read Romance of the Three Kingdoms. But from my cursory my I'm sorry, I'm I'm not up on my 14th century Chinese historical literature. Pete Wright: What? I'm shocked. Andy Nelson: But my understanding is that this whole conceit of a shadow of this of this dual character is something that Zhang Yimou and his screenwriter came up with. It's not drawn from history. And I think part of it is that the idea of Uh well let's just say the yin yang tai chi symbol. I think it's the tai chi symbol, right? Is that what you call it? I think they were calling it like no there's a tai chi symbol down there. I think they were calling it that. Maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, the yin yang symbol we'll just say. is prevalent in the story. And the idea of yin and yang is prevalent in the story. You've got the masculine and you've got the feminine. That's kind of one of the nature part of the nature of this yin yang element, right? Where Yin is yielding, feminine, and fluid. Yang is aggressive, dominant, masculine. But you can also look at yin yang as the real figure and the shadow figure. You could look at it as the overt attempts to take over a kingdom and the covert attempts to take over a kingdom. And I'm sure throughout the film there are many more examples of yin yang, but my impression is that bringing a shadow into the story as something that is fictionalized is part of this yin-yang element that that Zhang Yimou wanted to do. And I think that it makes for an interesting story. as it leads into that particularly that fight that we have between Jing and Yang Cang on this giant floating might as well just call it giant floating Trojan horse is what what essentially it is. Pete Wright: That's what it is. Andy Nelson: with a an enormous yin-yang symbol like designed into the s the top surface. It's it's fascinating the way that that plays, but I am curious how the shadow, the nature of the actual shadow works for you in the story. Pete Wright: What do you what do you mean? The nature of the shadow? Andy Nelson: We have this commander who named Ziyu, I think is his name, who had been injured. But we t we learn that he has had this shadow since he was a child. His uncle found the way the story goes. His uncle found a lost kid, and instead of tracking him d tracking down his mother to return him to her, he says, Hmm, you look awfully like my my nephew. I'm going to kidnap you and raise you as his shadow just in case? Like what is the intention there? Pete Wright: He's like an organ organ harvester for the wealthy. He's like a blood boy. Andy Nelson: He never uses him until like this point in time when I I I think he's only been out and about now for about a year. since since Ziyu got injured. And that's and he's been Yeah, and he was just what living in this in this wet cave all of this time and training? Pete Wright: So where yeah, where did they keep him? Andy Nelson: Like I I was trying to figure out like what is the intention of that? I mean, I get it, like, okay, take a movie like Akira Kurosawa made a movie in I think 1980, Kagemusha, Shadow Warrior. About a king who has a shadow, and the shadow goes out and does things in case there's an assassination attempt, then he has, you know, somebody to take care of him. In this film, it's like it's the commander. He's not a king. Why does it matter? Like I I couldn't figure out. Like that was the question that I was scratching my head about this whole time. I'm like, why Is this guy feel like he needs to have a shadow? Pete Wright: A double. Andy Nelson: Yeah Pete Wright: Yeah. I mean, is it because there was there is unspoken unspoken canon that somehow this commander was making a run for w higher power and he just wanted to be ready since he was a child. Andy Nelson: He kinda does. I mean, that's how it ends. Pete Wright: That's how it ends. Andy Nelson: I mean, s presumably. Presumab we don't actually see, but it seems like, okay, it seems like Jing can now be king. Pete Wright: Yeah. It's not like Jing Jing, you know, heads off into the sunset, lonely warrior abdicating r all responsibilities. Andy Nelson: Right, so but did I I guess that was Ziyu's intention. I mean we we do find out that Ziyu's intention, again, this is very spoiler-heavy. If you haven't seen this, you should watch the movie first. But Ziyu's intention, as we find out has always been to use the shadow as needed and then dispose of him, never release him from his his duties as it were. to dispose of him and it seems like take over. I mean his intentions are as we find out to kill the king, to kill the shadow, and to usurp the throne. So maybe that is why, but still that's a long long game. That's like Emperor Palpatine long game. Pete Wright: It's this is this is a whole the longest con. Yeah. Right. Andy Nelson: Yeah. Pete Wright: Right. It's a generational long con. It's I mean that that works for me because it works for me, let's say It when I say it works for me, I'm putting works for me in quotes. Like it works for me as well as the love triangle and House of Flying Daggers. Like it this is the melodrama that we have. And it is written writ large in the throne room at the end when every masks come off and heads are not in boxes where they're supposed to be and all this stuff kind of plays out This is the final like love triangle equivalent of this movie. And I like it. I like the the political melodrama that we get on this big stage Uh I I think it's I think it's earned, although it's a little bit forehead slappy. It's it's okay. It's okay. If you buy into to that. If that's rewarding, then you have bought into the fact that this is a generational long con and we're just gonna be on board. Andy Nelson: I think that's where it is. And I I mean I can I can complain about that all day long because it's it's one of those things that it just doesn't make that much sense, especially with this this poor Pete Wright: Yeah Andy Nelson: guy who seems like the the the only sane person in the bunch, really. Uh you know, our our our fair commander here, Jing, who is Seems like a good guy. He he is is obviously wanting to go home to his mother. He's wanting to see an improved kingdom, all of this sort of stuff clearly, clearly our protagonist of the story. And I think with all of that, it makes for an interesting journey to kind of watch him go through the motions. And I think in the scope of a s of a of our character needing to kind of like have his growth and figure out who he is over the course of the story, I do think that it works. I may have questions about the shadow element, but he as a character does show some change of the story. He recognizes I am more than just this shadow. I can be more than this than ZU. I can I I I recognize that King Pei is an idiot and Pete Wright: Yeah. Andy Nelson: we need to also at the same time take back the Jing province. And so I I like seeing him kind of have those moments of recognition. And it builds to a very satisfying conclusion at the end, but kind of between in that final convertation confrontation between King and commander and the secret commander All of that works quite well. Pete Wright: I think you just said it though. Andy Nelson: And the Pete Wright: That sentence, the king and the commander and secret commander, like that's that's why we're slapping foreheads at the same time. Andy Nelson: Yeah. Yes, exactly. And then on top of it, there's a love story, and and it ends up being a love triangle because Commander Ziyu's wife Has to pose, she's the only other person who knows about this shadow, and she has to pose as if as if he is her wife or her husband, and she ends up kind of having moments where she feels more connected to this guy. And as we see, they end up, you know, sleeping together. She's trying to comfort him and they end up sleeping together. And Z you, of course, is peeking through his little peak holes in the walls and watches all of this, getting very upset. And the film starts and ends with her moment of The guy will just say her decision point. Is she going to reveal that this guy is a shadow, or is she going to say, that is my husband, and I'm standing by his side? And the person who he killed, who's laying next to the dead king, is the assassin, and never bring up the fact that it's her actual husband. Like That makes for an interesting, like there's an interesting story going on here. And I do like all of these these bits of of politics and Shakespearean high drama, all of this. I think it plays, even if I do have questions. Pete Wright: Yeah, where where do you stand on Qingping's arc? She she is our she is move on in the story she's and ultimately meets with a with a pretty dark end. Andy Nelson: Well, I mean, Qingping the princess you're talking about. Pete Wright: Mm-hmm. Andy Nelson: Yeah. Pete Wright: Right. She's sold by her brother. She'll have none of that. She puts on armor. She goes throws away with the strike force in the Trojan pallet. and f fights in the city and ultimately kills Yang Ping with a dagger after he wounds her and she dies In the city that she just helped to take Andy Nelson: Yeah. I enjoyed her arc as another of our as as one of our two female characters. I enjoyed her arc. I thought it was a nice journey for her to see. Because again, she also, I think, recognized that her brother was an idiot. Like everybody recognizes that her brother is an idiot. Pete Wright: Yeah. Andy Nelson: But she's just stuck because again, she's a woman and in the situation that she's in as the sister to the king, she has very little say to do anything or make any change. And so her decision is to her first decision is to prevent the assassination of I I think both Jing and Tian Zhan, the new commander that replaces Jing once the king strips him of his of his rank and turns him into a commoner. And she says, you know what, don't kill anybody. I will take the dagger and become the Yang Ping's concubine. All the time though, again, covertly deciding, not really, I am going to join this strike team and I'm gonna actually fight for fight to take back Ping City or Jing City. Pete Wright: That's the she's interesting because she's like that's her that's her entire arc, right? There's like no interior motivation, there's no reveal, there's no double. She is the maybe the only character in the film who is straightforwardly what she appears to be, right? The whole time. And, you know, I I watch this thing and I think, okay, is she plot fuel? Is she does she just exist in the movie to motivate the strike force and take out Yang Ping and in in I I guess a cinematic beat that the duel, the dramatic duel, can't live up to? Does she just die so that the rest of the carnage in the city and beyond feels, you know? totally comprehensive or or is she is she the case of what happens when one one character in this movie refuses to play the role that the yin and the yang are asking of everybody else. Right? She just she's just pure yang. There's no shadow And no waiting for three years, and she just acts and then she kills and then she dies for it. And that's it. And it's very simple. in some case every character in a film is a tool for the plot. But in this case I I think she is if she is a tool for the plot, she's more rewarding for me than just plot armor. I think she is I I think she's an interesting character to watch. Andy Nelson: Yeah, I agree as well. Let's talk more about that, but first take a quick break, shall we? You can find the show on YouTube and you can join us live when we record. We'll even take your questions in the post-show chit-chat, and members get the full post-show conversation and always know what to listen to next. Subscribe to The Next Reel on YouTube. The link to this episode is in the show notes. We'll be right back. So you were asking about Qingping and her role, and I I think what's great about her as a character is that I do think that There is more to her I'm there is more to her than just throwing her into armor And secretly sending her off to war. I think that it gives it it adds to more of the the intrigue and the complications that are arising because of everything going on and just shows how strong of a character she is and that she is not going to just idly sit by and let her idiot brother run their the Pei kingdom into the ground by essentially always yielding to Yang Cang She is going to actually stand and fight. And if that means that she dies doing so, then she's going to. But the I what I love about her character is that there is this political acceptance, I guess we'll call it, of saying in front of her brother, fine, I will accept Yang Ping's request to have me as his concubine, not as a wife. Like that was the initial ask. We're gonna make you his wife. I would rather have her as my concubine. If she's my concubine, then we can have peace is basically what what Yang Ping Yang Ping and his dad say. She says politically, fine, we'll do that. Meanwhile, there's still this whole duel going on, but covertly her intentions are never to let that idly stand by. And I love that about her. Like she actually goes into battle to specifically face Yang Ping. And as she says, I came to give you this because the gift the gift was a dagger. And here she is giving him the fatal blow with the dagger that he had given in exchange for her as concubine. So I thought it played really well. I enjoyed it. Pete Wright: I do too. You know, and I said I I guess it's i it it's a little bit disingenuous to say she's the only character who chooses without strategy, because she clearly had strategy. She just feels like she's living more in the moment. than anybody else. Everybody else is doing this generational game of one-upmanship and she's just like, I'm gonna respond to the next thing in front of me. And I find that a rewarding character trait. In a movie full of snakes, you know, she gets to be something reactive. She's Ricky Tiki Tavvy. Andy Nelson: Well, I mean, how does she play versus Xiaoqiao? Chow — I'm not sure how you say it. The the wife, commander's wife. Is it chow chow chow? I don't know the X and the Q. X-I-A-O-Q-I-A-O Pete Wright: Like Chow Chow. That seems like it seems like we're getting we're gonna get in into pronunciation hell. Andy Nelson: We're getting into trouble with our pronunciation here, but yeah. But but she is the she is Pete Wright: Yeah, what do you compare to the wife, what do you think about her? Andy Nelson: I was talking about her as an interesting character because we start and end the film with her at that decision point Like the film starts over Black and the and the titles, but we're hearing everything that happens at the end as she screams at the dead bodies, she runs across the the courtroom and she goes to the door. She's about to fling it open because she knows that Jing is out there again posing as commander and says the king is dead. One of his men was an assassin, I immediately killed him. And he we know he's already also killed Yang Cang, so presumably that means that he's king now. Like he is now the one who kind of controls all of this stuff. And we know that Tian Zhan, who had been the new commander, who supports him, even though he he was a believer of the old commander and stood by his side. Tian Zhan recognized that the old commander was pretty crazy. He'd kind of gone off the deep end and was a little loopy. And this new commander, he was going to stand by his side. And so that I don't know. The way that I read it was, okay, Jing is likely going to be king now, but it's all up to the wife. And like that's the decision point that starts and ends the film. Is she going to actually announce that he is a traitor a and a double or is she going to stand by his side? I think it plays interestingly. I mean I assume she's gonna stand by his side I don't know why at that point she would I mean she's stood by her husband's side all of these years and she's only had that one moment we'll just say of of philandering where she ends up feel you know, to comfort him ends up they end up sleeping together. So I don't know. I mean, how did you read all of that with her? Pete Wright: Oh, it's interesting. I mean, I feel like she has less to to do. Like it's interesting that we open and close the film with her because it makes her feel like she's got more of of an arc. I think she's y you know, she's she doesn't have a whole lot of craft to the film. Like we don't get to see m I I don't feel like we have much of an interior to her. She's she she doesn't certainly doesn't have as much to do as Qingping. And that's why my eye just always goes toward Qingping as a as a character. She I fe it feels a little bit empty and just sort of placeholder-y in the palace intrigue Andy Nelson: Interesting, interesting. I guess I just I read more with her because she is truly in this position where she's stuck between wanting to support her husband, her actual husband. wanting to see success. I mean, she's the one who comes up with the idea. What if he uses feminine, you know, movements instead of masculine? Pete Wright: Yeah, she does the teaching scene for sure. Andy Nelson: Like she she she's the one who actually recognizes that there's there are other ways to take on a battle because as we see in the montages the training montages, when Jing is training with the commander, he can't win using his aggressive techniques. And by by switching to these kind of these feminine movements with the umbrella, he actually is able to to find a way through the offense and to actually turn it into a win. And so all of that, and I think she has those moments of connection and that moment, you know, those conversations with him about how He is just always been scared and he's afraid of the dark and he has this the recurring nightmare and things like that. And then she goes to see him because they have to pose even with the servants. Like the servants come make the beds and they say you're dismissed and then he goes and sleeps on the floor outside the hallway. And that one night she happens to come out there to check on him and he's just like curled in a ball in a corner crying. And so I don't know. I think there's more to her and I think that she's recognizing the harm that her husband is doing. And that slow growth of sympathy that we see. I think I don't know. For me, I read a lot more with her character because of all of that. Pete Wright: Hm. Yeah, I mean we do get we get the the sort of angry woman set piece in the m end and I do think, you know, it's it it's interesting to compare these two because I feel like almost Qingping sort of escapes from the the box that Xiaoqiao was in in the first place, or or takes her place in the box. There's a box swapping going on between these two young noblewomen and give the the film sort of gives one of them everything and the other one nothing. And th there is something to that that that this woman ends the film having lost everything but keeping her life. And the other one loses her life, but ends up in a r otherwise a redemptive arc by retaking the city. Or being a part of that. So I think that's an interesting that that make puts them in an interest on interesting sort of parallel, slightly parallel tracks. Andy Nelson: Although it actually is interesting because when it comes to Xiaoqiao, her story is essentially one of Watching her husband deteriorate into insanity, and then a replacement steps in and becomes the good husband that she used to have. Presumably, we never see him that way. And and the choice is to say, oh, you know what, I finally have, we'll just say, my husband back. And , you know, I can finally live with somebody who who I believe in again. Pete Wright: Okay That's a that's a I I you're right. This is a personality litmus test because you're right. We don't actually ever see it. Is this a happy ending for Xiaoqiao that she gets a hunky young lad? as a husband and loses the poisoned older nonsense person? Or is it sad because she actually still had feelings for the original? Andy Nelson: I think that I don't know, the way that it seemed is that she seemed committed to the original because it was her actual husband. But again, the poison had affected more than just his body. it seemed to have affected his mind. So maybe I I don't know. I like to think that she's getting back essentially what she once had. And now she's Yeah. Pete Wright: This is essentially the Bachelorette Palace Intrigue. Andy Nelson: Oh my goodness. Pete Wright: Yeah. Andy Nelson: You know, we should we should talk about umbrellas at some point. Do you want to talk about the umbrellas for a minute? Pete Wright: Can we please talk about umbrellas? Andy, these umbrellas are My favorite thing, because first of all, let me tell you, these don't exist. These are not based on a historically accurate weapon in Chinese history. I tried. I wanted them to exist so badly. They are so cool and so flamboyant, and they absolutely fit the arc of the martial art of that that is being taught. They lun they're also nonsense weapons and I think everyone who uses them would be covered in cuts. From these things. There so if you haven't seen the movie, what are you doing here? But really it the umbrella is made of at like two dozen very sharp arced blades that can be spun and then released. Each individual blade can be released as a y dare I say, a flying dagger to use as a as a ranged weapon, but also it is used as a sort of a shield, it's used as a cutting tool, it is crazy, and at one point it's even used as a top like a spinning top. It's crazy how much did you love the umbrellas? Andy Nelson: Like spinning sleds in s sled tops, yeah. Pete Wright: Yeah, spinning sleds. Mm-hmm Andy Nelson: Like they ride in them. They sit on one and then they hold one over their head and they go sliding down the street. Pete Wright: Put another on top. Andy Nelson: It was fantastic. Pete Wright: This is crazy, and how much did you love them Andy Nelson: Yeah. I loved it so much. I had so much fun watching these these crazy umbrellas that I'm just like this is like the like I said, like you were saying. These are the most insanely dangerous things to ever actually use, but damn are they cool to look at. Like a spinning umbrella made of knives is basically what we have. And they're They are so cool. It just it plays so well. And again, it just it speaks to Zhang Yimou and his his desire to tell a story in a really creative way. And again, as you said. it's not historically accurate, but so many things in this story aren't anyway, so it doesn't really matter. It's just something that looks incredibly cool and as a weapon it fits into this kind of black and white world really well. It just it's And and to see everybody wielding them and I don't know. I had a blast with everything going on with these crazy things. It was so, so cool. Pete Wright: It's i I imagine them sitting around like writing this movie and having that same sort of exuberant feeling that maybe Lucas got when he was like, it's a sword but laser Andy Nelson: Yeah, right, right. Pete Wright: Like that's it's like like I just figured out something incredibly cool and it's gonna look great. If if I have one, dare I say, axe to grind. on this particular tool. It's it's a continuity thing. During the duel, he's wielding one of these on the platform, right? And this is where we get the way it's used, it's used repeatedly, and it takes damage. The the umbrella's blades are kind of floppy, right? They're like a sheet metal kind of a thing. And they get bent and it makes the umbrella Look so stupid after it's used at all. He's like, what are you doing, man? The umbrella is clearly broken. Pick up a sword. And I never wanted to feel pick up a sword in my heart. I wanted the umbrella to be the be all end all of every fight in this movie and it starts to look stupid after it is used. That is my only only quibble with the umbrella is I think they they could have just given a new umbrella for every every action sequence. Andy Nelson: That's funny. Pete Wright: It needs to be pristine the entire time. It needs to be rugged more rugged than it was Don't you think? Did you notice that at all? Andy Nelson: I didn't have that issue. No, I I I I can see why you would feel that, but I didn't think that. I actually thought it was cool because again, we see in the scope of how they use the umbrellas for both offense and defense, the way that they would spin them and use it to kind of catch Yang Cang's enormous like axe blade or whatever that weapon is that you like a I don't know what kind of weapon you call that, but it's a really cool, very dangerous looking weapon that he would come swinging down and then to see the umbrella like spin and as it's spinning, it catches the the arm of that weapon in between its blades and uses it to kind of like spin it away Sometimes the fact that it had shot off a number of blades left those perfect gaps in it anyway to kind of catch it. And so To me, it all ended up becoming pretty useful and usable. And so I I really enjoyed all of that. I didn't have any of that same gripe that you had. Pete Wright: This is this is a gripe that's clearly based on me being a guy who's spending way too much time talking about Captain America: The Winter Soldier on Marvel Movie Minute and I wanted the umbrella blades to be made of vibranium. I need a Wakandan umbrella is what I need out of this movie. Clearly that's the those are the eyes I I brought to the to the film. Andy Nelson: Yeah, you right. You wanted one that would last forever. I get it, I get it, yeah. Pete Wright: Yeah. Yeah. And I want him to wear it on his back and like there's just a whole thing. Andy Nelson: No. Pete Wright: They could they made a lot of these umbrellas fast Andy Nelson: I can't remember they said they grabbed a whole bunch of these people like former inmates or whatever and they had them all ready to come fight for them and everything. Pete Wright: Convicts, yeah. Andy Nelson: Yeah, and every single person had not one but two. Pete Wright: Two Andy Nelson: umbrellas because again they're riding down the hill in little umbrella like turtle shell pods top and bottom Pete Wright: That was so good. I just it's so good. Andy Nelson: Oh, I they're shooting people as they go down it. Pete Wright: As they go down. Andy Nelson: I'm like, how are they aiming? Like goodness Pete Wright: I know. It's one of those absolutely flamboyant, frivolous action beats that that so commits to the bit you can't help but just smile the entire time. It it really works for me. Andy Nelson: Yeah, it does. It plays beautifully. Really does. Let's see, what else? Any other little things with this one Pete Wright: The final carnage. I I mean, I guess we've talked about the final carnage. Everybody, everybody who's anybody dies. Except for, you know, the wife and the young commander. Andy Nelson: Except for Jing and his wife. Pete Wright: Yeah. Yeah. Did it did did all of that feel, you know, rewarding to you, redemptive? Did everybody just need to go to so they can clean slate it? Andy Nelson: I I thought I actually thought it was really funny. that the end of the the end of that whole battle. So again, we know that there are there's a lot of machinations afoot. You know, Jing goes to his mother's house and finds her dead. He gets taken by troops and presumably they're the king's troops. The king brings him in and says, they weren't my troops. Aha! I knew that you're a shadow all along. And I've got your your boss, the commander, and he has his soldier bring a box in with presumably commander's head. But no, it's empty and the commander a actually which was so obvious as like no surprise at all that the commander was actually it wearing the armor, kills or like runs his sword through the king, who falls to the ground dying. And then he tells Jing, go ahead and pick that up. It's okay. You're you you've done amazing work and now you're gonna be rewarded. And Jing goes to pick up pick up the thing. And he knows that the commander is gonna kill him, so he kills the commander instead. He f stages this whole thing. But what made me laugh out loud is he goes to the the dying king and he says he He presumably is on the side of the king. Now that he's killed the commander, he goes to the king and says Don't worry, I I I've always been on your side, something like that. He says, let me get the royal doctors. And and he drags his he drags the the dying king next to the commander's body He takes the commander's sword and he drives it through the king. And I'm just like, why did you even bother telling him you're going to get the royal doctor? Like, what was the point of that? It just is so funny. Let me this is the don't worry, this is gonna help. Ugh. Pete Wright: Yeah. This is gonna yeah, this is a cure all. You're not gonna feel anything in a minute. Andy Nelson: Yeah Like he's on the floor dying. Pete Wright: Yeah. Andy Nelson: He's not gonna run off to do something. Like you don't have, just kill him. Oh man, so Pete Wright: Yeah. Nailing the melodrama. Again, nailing the melodrama. Andy Nelson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was it was all it all played in a very very much kinda again, that high Shakespearean drama of everybody killing everybody and and all trying to like Pete Wright: Yeah. Andy Nelson: one up each other. And I for me it played because again, we are pretty much designed in this story to always be rooting for commander. He just he's the guy that we like, right? Pete Wright: Mm-hmm. Andy Nelson: So it yeah, it works. Pete Wright: How so you know, as we get toward wrapping up here, how does this land in the arc of you know, director Zhang films that we've talked about for you. Where does this one hit? Andy Nelson: Well, I again I there's so many films that he's done that I just haven't seen, but in the scope of what we've talked about, it fits very much in everything kind of that post hero window of time where he was really telling much more epic sorts of stories, these Wuxia action tales. Chinese history, it really fits into the tone of this period and what he was trying to do here. And I think without knowing all of the films, I'm I'm sure he's doing some other I know he has some comedies and stuff in there, but I'm I'm It'll be interesting to kind of try digging into some other elements, but from what our arc of if you look at the now seven films that he's that he's made that we have talked about on the show. It very much starts in smaller individual stories and then it moves into these larger action action epics. And that's kind of where we end up with this one here. Pete Wright: Yeah. And I I mean I look at, you know, the overall arc and we we have these, you know, Yimou has And this one, the big era is post-Great Wall. But the movies before, like talking about Judou and Raise the Red Lantern and Hero, it's interesting to see how this one is a more recent. entry lands for me. I I wonder if it's my favorite of his Wuxia films. It doesn't hit in terms of the cultural films, looking at, you know, Raise the Red Lantern and Judou and and to live. I still think those, you know, those earlier films I appreciate, you know, Raise the Red Lantern or Judou, I think I appreciate more than n than to live, even though I quite liked to live. But I was surprised that I think this one usurps hero for me is my my favorite of his collected works that we've talked about. I didn't expect that. Andy Nelson: I I would be curious if you revisited Hero if you'd still feel the same. Pete Wright: Yeah, it's been a bunch of years. It's been almost ten years since I've watched it. Andy Nelson: I feel like Hero is probably gonna still be the one that would stand out for me as the as the better story, the better film. I think all of them show how creative he is in putting together a visual production. I think that's just something that he excels at. And so yeah, I I really do enjoy this one though. I have a great time with it, even if I do have some questions about some elements within the story. Pete Wright: Yeah, yeah. Andy Nelson: All right, well let's move into the back half, but first let's take a quick break. Pete Wright: The Next Reel is a production of TruStory FM, engineering by Andy Nelson, music by Tzabutan, Borden Lulu, Oriol Novella, and Eli Catlin. Andy usually finds all the stats for the awards and numbers at The-Numbers.com, BoxOfficeMojo.com, IMDb.com, and Wikipedia.org. Find the show and our full archive at TruStory.fm. You can follow us from there too. Plus, you can find out how to become a member and go further with every episode. Check out our merch store at thenextreel.com/merch. And if your app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show. Alright Andy, sequels and remakes. Oh, can I just I just can't wait to see Shadow 2 more Shadow Andy Nelson: Right. Well, it's it's funny because again, this, as we said, was based on a very, very old Chinese story, Romance of the Three Kingdoms. That has had so many adaptations. And I think that's really where where things lie with this. Again, and I mentioned it hit this kind of had been based on that TV series itself. But Going back to that 14th century novel, which was based on records from the third century, this has been made into films, TV series, manga, video games. different novels. Like there's so many adaptations of this. Uh Chinese manhwa, it's Korean Manhwa, like all these different places, these countries have been telling this story. You could look at John Woo's film Red Cliff, which is a two-part based on the Battle of the Red Cliffs, which is part of this epic story, the Romance of the Three Kingdoms. Very many films, very many TV. And so I think if you want to dig deep into this elements of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, there are a lot of options for you. Pete Wright: I might. I have actually heard things of Red Cliff the two the the two-parter. Andy Nelson: Fantastic movie. Pete Wright: Yeah, I've I haven't seen it, but I've heard good things. All right. How to do at award season? Andy Nelson: This it did well. Uh thirty-eight wins with sixty other nominations, a lot of nominations, which is to be expected for technical categories. At the Golden Horse Awards, which are a Chinese award, did really well, had a lot of nominations, nominated for feature film but lost to An Elephant Sitting Still. Adapted screenplay also lost to An Elephant Sitting Still. Zhang Yimou won best director. The film also won best visual effects, art direction, and makeup and costume design. Leading actor Deng Chao was nominated but lost to Xu Zheng in Dying to Survive. Sun Li was nominated for Leading Actress but lost to Yin-Hsuan Hsieh in Dear Ex. Cinematography and film score and sound effects all were nominated but lost to a Chinese version of Long Day's Journey into Night, which I was very curious to hear. That That was adapted over there. And last but not least, it was nominated for Best Action Choreography, but lost to Hidden Man. Over here in the States, it was nominated at the Saturn Awards, the sci-fi fantasy and horror awards. For best director, but lost to Jordan Peele for us. Best international film lost to Burning. Best production design lost to Avengers: Endgame and Best Costume Design Lost to the Live Action Aladdin. So it had it had its wins though. It had its wins. Pete Wright: Mostly out of this entire litany, I'm most excited about Chinese adaptations of Eugene O'Neill. Can we have more of that? Andy Nelson: I'm very curious about that. Like a especially the fact that it won best sound effects. and cinematography. I'm really curious to see like how they told that story, you know? It's interesting. Pete Wright: Yeah. Andy Nelson: Yeah. Pete Wright: Sound effects in long days journey. What is that? Andy Nelson: Yeah. Pete Wright: Huh. Andy Nelson: Yeah. I don't know. Pete Wright: Alright. Well, I know you're excited about the the budget, so I'll just let you get to it. Go ahead, give us all the detail, all the rigorous minutia. Andy Nelson: That's right. Well, last week's movie got my hopes up. Unfortunately, there is no budget in information out there for Yimou's Shadow. The movie premiered at the Venice International Film Festival september sixth, twenty eighteen, before its may third, twenty nineteen release here in the States, opposite The Intruder, Long Shot, and Ugly Dolls. This never had more than a limited release, maxing out at fifty three screens. All told, it only earned $521,000 domestically. Still, it was a huge success everywhere else, going on to earn $91. 2 million internationally for a total gross of $115. 5 million in today's dollars. I don't know what it cost to make, but I'm going to assume that means it landed in the green. Pete Wright: I think that's great. Good for it. Bummer for us. More people I think should have seen it. It actually I I think the movie plays and I I enjoyed the heck of it, heck out of it. I think it's Uh I don't care that they go ahead and kill every named character at the end of the movie, , almost, , because it's a Wuxia film and I needed bodies at the end, and that was great Andy Nelson: There are plenty of those, yeah. It is it I I really enjoyed it. It's gorgeous. It's great seeing Zhang Yimou really pushing to create films that feel wholly unique. I love that. I love that he went the direction he did here. Again, the story's a little convoluted, but I find it very easy to forgive because this film was very engaging. I had a lot of fun with it. Pete Wright: How many stories of just sort of historical you know, historical events like th this one based in like classic Americana have been made into video games. I kind of can't let that go. You said that this movie's been adapted into video games or this story was it origin has adapted been adapted into video games. And maybe it's because more video game developers haven't tapped the catalog of Eugene O'Neill stories. Andy Nelson: That's the Is that it? I don't know. I guess there's the Oregon Trail Pete Wright: That is the that is the best. International audiences, I hope you don't know what Andy's talking about, because that is pure Americana right there. Classic. Andy Nelson: Oh man. Yeah, a game that we were playing back when we were young. It's a very fun game. Pete Wright: Well done. Andy Nelson: Good stuff. Pete Wright: Well done. Andy Nelson: Alright, well that is it for our conversation about Zhang Yimou's shadow, and that wraps up our Zhang Yimou series for season 15. Next week, we shift gears entirely back to our Couples on the Run series with Joseph H. Lewis's Gun Crazy from 1950. Two people, a shared obsession with guns, and a romance that only ends one way. We'll see you there. And I should say it will be our 800th episode. Pete Wright: Wow, look at that big eight hundred. What is the eight hundredth anniversary, I wonder? Andy Nelson: That's right. Yeah, what what do you get what do you give someone for that? Pete Wright: I don't know. Andy Nelson: All right, let's do our ratings. Pete Wright: Letterboxd.com slash The Next Reel, that's where you can find our HQ page over at Letterboxd. where we orate and review all the films we talk about across the shows of the Next Reel family of film shows. What are you gonna do for this movie, Andy? Andy Nelson: I really had fun with it. Yes, I I stumble over the need for a shadow, and it made me question a lot of elements within the story, but In the end, it was easy to kind of look past all of that. I am gonna put this four stars and a heart. Pete Wright: I came in at three and a half stars and a heart. I think I'm gonna bump it up to four stars too because I don't do half stars. Andy Nelson: What? That was like where how yeah, how do you even come in at three and a half? Pete Wright: Isn't that isn't that good what I did there? That was a little pivot. A little dance. Uh no, I feel like I I feel the same way. I think there's There is a lot of melodrama. This isn't a transformational film. It doesn't change the way it helped me change the way I live my life day-to-day. But my goodness, it was fun to watch. And I could watch those umbrellas all day long. So four stars in the heart. Andy Nelson: Yeah, this is a beautiful, beautiful film. That averages out to four stars and a heart. You can find the show on Letterboxd @thenextreel. You can find me there @sodacreekfilm and Pete @petewright. So what did you think about Shadow? We would love to hear your thoughts. Hop into the Show Talk channel over in our Discord community where we will be talking about the movie this week. Pete Wright: When the movie ends Andy Nelson: Our conversation begins. Pete Wright: Letterboxd giveth Andrew. Andy Nelson: As Letterboxd always doeth. Pete Wright: Okay, you got a short one, I got a long one. I'm gonna go first. Andy Nelson: I think I should go first because you've got the one that has a little more punch, yeah. Pete Wright: Alright. You do really? Okay, go ahead. Andy Nelson: Mine is just I I think it just is something that we do need to keep in mind and remind filmmakers over here in the States. Four stars by Joe A. If American modern action movies tried to look half as good at this as this, we would be in a much better place. Pete Wright: Oh yeah. No, that's good. Andy Nelson: Here, here. Absolutely, Joe. Pete Wright: Yeah. Okay, this is comes from Cole, Four Stars and a Heart. The thing about this movie is that at one point a dude reveals he's got an umbrella that shoots batarangs. And I was like, yes, yeah. And then like two minutes later, he reveals he has an he has an army that has a bunch of umbrellas that shoot batarangs. And I was like, goddamn. And then like ninety seconds after that, everyone flips their umbrella over, sits on it, grabs a second one so that they're cocooned, and then they launch themselves into a city like human effing Beyblades, and I was like, Oh right. Zhang Yimou is the greatest director of all time. Outstanding Cole. Andy Nelson: Yeah. Pete Wright: Four stars in a heart. Outstanding. Andy Nelson: I love it Pete Wright: No, thanks Letterboxd