Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / NANCY GUTHRIE: HIDDEN MEANING OF CHILLING RANSOM NOTE

Transcript

NANCY GUTHRIE: HIDDEN MEANING OF CHILLING RANSOM NOTE · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Bob Shell tonight in the search for Nancy Guthrie. What
0:04
Speaker 1: is the hidden meaning on that chilling ransom note? Good evening,
0:10
Speaker 1: I Nancy Grace, this is crime Stories. I want to
0:12
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us.
0:24
Speaker 2: The ransom notes Nancy that came in, the good, the bad,
0:28
Speaker 2: the ugly, and.
0:29
Speaker 1: The very very serious regrets from within the investigation.
0:37
Speaker 2: The good notes are the two notes that came in
0:40
Speaker 2: early on in the case.
0:42
Speaker 3: The investigators believe IP addresses crypto wallets that made sense.
0:48
Speaker 4: Somebody knows something. And this is a news story today
0:52
Speaker 4: that is on your radar. But this is the life
0:55
Speaker 4: that my sister lives, that I live, that my brother lives,
0:58
Speaker 4: that our extended families live, our children live every day,
1:02
Speaker 4: and we are in agony.
1:04
Speaker 5: We cannot be at peace. We need your help.
1:07
Speaker 4: We're begging for your help and I'm not going to
1:09
Speaker 4: miss that opportunity. And so please, if you're watching, no
1:13
Speaker 4: matter how small the reward is, there you can tell us.
1:17
Speaker 4: It can be anonymous. Please do the right thing for us,
1:20
Speaker 4: for our family, for our children. And we love our
1:23
Speaker 4: mom and we will never stop looking for her. Never.
1:26
Speaker 1: Our friend Savannah Guthrie speaking out That is from our
1:31
Speaker 1: friends at NBC. So how long has Savannah suspected that
1:38
Speaker 1: her mother is actually dead? How long this while her family, Savannah,
1:45
Speaker 1: her sister, Annie, brother Karen, all being tortured personally, keeping
1:53
Speaker 1: it to themselves, while so many in the public are
1:56
Speaker 1: blaming them for their mother's disappearance. Has the truth been
2:02
Speaker 1: right before us the entire time?
2:06
Speaker 5: I want you to look at Savannah's missive.
2:09
Speaker 4: Weeks ago, we received your message and we understand. We
2:16
Speaker 4: beg you now to return our mother to us so.
2:19
Speaker 6: That we can celebrate with her.
2:22
Speaker 4: This is the only way we will have peace. This
2:25
Speaker 4: is very valuable to us, and we will.
2:28
Speaker 1: Pay in those few seconds if you are astuteley interpreting it.
2:35
Speaker 1: We learn so much. We've got an all star panel
2:38
Speaker 1: to get to. But first I want to go to
2:41
Speaker 1: Tony Bruski joining us podcast Star of Hidden Killers with
2:46
Speaker 1: Tony Bruski. Mister Bruski, thank you for being with us,
2:49
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. Many of us wanted to
2:52
Speaker 1: believe so fiercely that there was a chance to bring
2:55
Speaker 1: missus Guthrie home alive. But now if you look and
3:00
Speaker 1: listen to what she is saying, her own words say
3:05
Speaker 1: it all. This is valuable to us. This is she
3:10
Speaker 1: referring to her mother's body without saying it overtly. We
3:16
Speaker 1: want to bring her home to celebrate. At the time,
3:20
Speaker 1: we all thought that echoed the theme of a celebration
3:24
Speaker 1: of life, which is an effective funeral. We understand that
3:30
Speaker 1: she is dead, we will pay for her body. She
3:37
Speaker 1: ends by saying, it's never too late to do the
3:41
Speaker 1: right thing. It's never too late. In other words, we
3:46
Speaker 1: know our mom has perished, but it's not too late
3:50
Speaker 1: to do the right thing. What about it, Tony?
3:54
Speaker 7: I think a context is key to this, and now
3:58
Speaker 7: that we have some context to you with that second
4:01
Speaker 7: letter that Savannah has been aware of all of this
4:04
Speaker 7: time and her family has been processing for the last
4:07
Speaker 7: five months, that reaction that we saw all those months
4:11
Speaker 7: ago makes a lot more sense. We've all been speculating
4:15
Speaker 7: the verbiage that she was using because it seemed as
4:17
Speaker 7: though she was in fact talking about her deceased mother
4:20
Speaker 7: at the time, but we didn't have any confirmation, nor
4:23
Speaker 7: do we completely as of this moment. But the context
4:26
Speaker 7: makes sense that this was a message they believed came
4:31
Speaker 7: from the source of who took their mother, and in
4:34
Speaker 7: an odd one at that if you look at history,
4:37
Speaker 7: there hasn't been notes like this where someone has kidnapped
4:43
Speaker 7: someone and then the apology. It's where to completely unheard
4:49
Speaker 7: of them. So it's hard to number one. But as
4:52
Speaker 7: the FBI appears said, it continuing to put these pieces
4:56
Speaker 7: together and these dots together. The fact that the legitimacy
5:00
Speaker 7: of this seems to come together in a way that
5:03
Speaker 7: was unexpected really does tell us something new in this
5:06
Speaker 7: case that maybe this went horribly wrong. And in my
5:12
Speaker 7: take on this is I don't think Nancy was ever
5:15
Speaker 7: really the targets to begin with, and that's what led
5:18
Speaker 7: to this very bizarre apology in a case of this.
5:22
Speaker 1: Now that brings up a whole hornets nest A Pandora's box,
5:27
Speaker 1: because there's been a lot of back and forth in
5:30
Speaker 1: the last thirty six hours. Did they apologize, Yes they did, No,
5:34
Speaker 1: they didn't. Well, I can read you verbatim what the
5:39
Speaker 1: Arizona Families network including three TV and CBS five and
5:45
Speaker 1: ko LD state. They state, and they give a quote,
5:50
Speaker 1: she perished shortly after she was taken. She is buried
5:56
Speaker 1: in nature. Now we are truly sorry. We never intended
6:01
Speaker 1: to hurt her. But listen, to Harvey Levin.
6:05
Speaker 3: I want to talk about Nancy Guthrie and some communications
6:10
Speaker 3: I've had with the FBI that I haven't talked about
6:14
Speaker 3: until now. But I want to start with these reports
6:18
Speaker 3: that this ransom letter that we received kind of apologizes
6:24
Speaker 3: to Savannah Guthrie and her family for the kidnapping and
6:30
Speaker 3: that Nancy was no longer alive. That was not in
6:37
Speaker 3: the ransom note that we received. It is not in
6:41
Speaker 3: that ransom note at all. It does say that she's scared,
6:44
Speaker 3: but okay, but the ransom note makes no reference to
6:49
Speaker 3: Nancy Guthrie either dying or the kidnappers apologizing.
6:55
Speaker 1: Okay, so you've got Harvey Levin stating, and I have
6:58
Speaker 1: no reason to dis believe Harvey Harvey Levin, our friend
7:03
Speaker 1: at TMZ, I thoroughly believe his ransom letter, which was
7:08
Speaker 1: deemed at the time to be potentially credible, did not
7:13
Speaker 1: mention that missus Guthrie is no longer alive or there
7:16
Speaker 1: was their apologies. But we have other notes, specifically the
7:22
Speaker 1: one to Kold there's more from Harvey.
7:29
Speaker 3: There is a reference to Nancy Guthrie not being alive anymore,
7:36
Speaker 3: but that is from the person who sent us multiple
7:40
Speaker 3: emails saying that he knows are new where Nancy gun
7:46
Speaker 3: three was and where the kidnappers were, and he wanted
7:51
Speaker 3: money in return for information. We passed that along to
7:55
Speaker 3: the FBI as we did the ransom note. This person
8:01
Speaker 3: kept sending us emails and early on he said time
8:06
Speaker 3: is of the essence, and then a few days after
8:09
Speaker 3: the kidnapping he said time is no longer of the essence,
8:14
Speaker 3: meaning she wasn't alive.
8:17
Speaker 1: That's Harvey Levin over at TMZ so to you, Sidney
8:21
Speaker 1: Silvanni joining US Crime Stories investigative reporter.
8:24
Speaker 5: Sidney.
8:25
Speaker 1: There are a slew of notes coming from different sources
8:32
Speaker 1: because Harvey is saying I believe truthfully. There was no apology,
8:36
Speaker 1: and in neither of the two potentially credible or hansom
8:41
Speaker 1: notes did they say missus Guthrie had passed on. But
8:46
Speaker 1: then there are the other emails from a potential witness
8:50
Speaker 1: that says, I know where she is, time is of
8:52
Speaker 1: the essence. I need money. I'm not coming forward because
8:55
Speaker 1: I've got a burglary conviction from eleven years ago. I
8:58
Speaker 1: will be putting myself in danger. Me a bitcoin. There's that,
9:02
Speaker 1: Then there is she perished shortly after she was taken,
9:05
Speaker 1: which seems to fit in and Eric Dickerson can tell
9:08
Speaker 1: us more about this with the fact that there was
9:10
Speaker 1: no proof of life offered and then everything went dead.
9:14
Speaker 1: So Sydney Silvanni, what is floating around out there? You've
9:17
Speaker 1: got Harvey's missives, You've got Kold, You've got k guns.
9:23
Speaker 5: What is out there? What are we talking about?
9:26
Speaker 1: Right?
9:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, there definitely are several different lines of people trying
9:31
Speaker 2: to profit off of this situation. We don't know if
9:36
Speaker 2: any of them are legitimate. So it seems like TMZ
9:42
Speaker 2: got the same first letter that went out to KOLD,
9:47
Speaker 2: and then they also have this second source coming to them,
9:50
Speaker 2: sending dozens of emails and they claim to not be responsible,
9:55
Speaker 2: but to know who is. So you have those two
9:59
Speaker 2: sources at TMC, and then you have the same source
10:02
Speaker 2: that reached out to KOLD, but then that same source
10:06
Speaker 2: is apparently responsible for the second note which claims that
10:11
Speaker 2: Miss Guthrie passed away shortly after her kidnapping. So there
10:15
Speaker 2: are definitely several sources floating around right now.
10:19
Speaker 3: The FBI took it seriously. They felt at least in
10:24
Speaker 3: my communications with him and I had numerous communications they
10:28
Speaker 3: felt that this person might indeed know. For some reason,
10:33
Speaker 3: they never paid or never asked the Guthrie family to
10:37
Speaker 3: pay that person for information leading to the identity of
10:42
Speaker 3: the kidnappers and Nancy Guthrie's remains. I was always confused
10:46
Speaker 3: about that because I'm a skeptical guy. But there's something
10:53
Speaker 3: about those emails that made me believe that this guy
10:57
Speaker 3: may well have known who the kidnappers were. And the
11:00
Speaker 3: reason I say that is that initially he said in
11:04
Speaker 3: the first letter, he said, time is of the essence,
11:07
Speaker 3: meaning you better hurry up, I can tell you where
11:10
Speaker 3: she is. But then the next day he wrote, time
11:14
Speaker 3: is no longer of the essence.
11:16
Speaker 1: Straight out to you, special guests joining us by the way.
11:18
Speaker 1: That's Harvey Levin over at TMZ. Eric Drickerson, former FBI
11:23
Speaker 1: Special Agent twenty years who specializes in international kidnappings, supervise
11:31
Speaker 1: the FBI Mexico US Border Liaison and the Cross Border
11:35
Speaker 1: Violence Task Force. Currently CEO EAD Global, providing security services
11:43
Speaker 1: and mitigating global risks for companies. Also, and I find
11:48
Speaker 1: this very significant. Former ache for Mexico City Office at
11:53
Speaker 1: the US Embassy, Eric, thank you for being with us tonight.
12:00
Speaker 1: Right now we know that the only people searching for
12:04
Speaker 1: Nancy and the Mexican area is the Bisconda Carizonas Nogalis.
12:09
Speaker 5: That's a group of ladies.
12:10
Speaker 1: With nothing but t shirts and sticks.
12:13
Speaker 5: Why.
12:16
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's not uncommon for volunteer organizations to want to
12:21
Speaker 8: come forward and assist in cases like this. Through my
12:25
Speaker 8: conversations with Mexican authorities, they're also following up on leads
12:29
Speaker 8: as those leads come in. So we do also have
12:33
Speaker 8: the attention of the Mexican government following up on relevant
12:38
Speaker 8: and credible leads. As you know, some of the information
12:43
Speaker 8: that they've received has been sparse or hasn't been detailed
12:47
Speaker 8: enough to follow up on those investigations. The information they
12:51
Speaker 8: have received has been investigated, and as you know, to
12:56
Speaker 8: date there's been no result on locating Nancy GOT three.
13:01
Speaker 1: Well, Eric Jriggerson, I'm curious as to what you think
13:06
Speaker 1: about these series of ransom notes, because if you analyze
13:12
Speaker 1: what Savannah is saying, this is valuable to us. She's
13:17
Speaker 1: not saying bring my mom home for Christmas. She's not
13:21
Speaker 1: saying bring my mom home for her birthday. This what
13:24
Speaker 1: is this is she referring to her mother's body, bring
13:28
Speaker 1: her home to celebrate, which in our culture refers to
13:32
Speaker 1: a celebration of life. We understand, and she seems to
13:38
Speaker 1: isolate that we understand that she is dead. We understand
13:44
Speaker 1: what you're telling us. We will pay for her body.
13:48
Speaker 1: It's never too late to do the right thing. In
13:52
Speaker 1: other words, even if her mom is passed on, it's
13:55
Speaker 1: not too late.
13:57
Speaker 5: What do you make of it.
13:59
Speaker 8: Normally, in these type of ransom demand responses, we would
14:04
Speaker 8: we would our negotiators for the FBI would typically want
14:08
Speaker 8: to humanize the victim, and they would want to use
14:11
Speaker 8: words like my mother or or her first name Nancy.
14:15
Speaker 8: They want to use these these names to further humanize
14:19
Speaker 8: the victim and and play into the consciousness of the
14:25
Speaker 8: of the abductors or kidnappers.
14:27
Speaker 5: Uh.
14:27
Speaker 8: The fact that she used this is a very interesting variation.
14:33
Speaker 8: I would read into that is that she already knew
14:38
Speaker 8: that there was either a possibility or a certainty that
14:42
Speaker 8: that that she had died. And and when when they say,
14:47
Speaker 8: for instance, the clothing statement is never too late, I
14:51
Speaker 8: read into that is, as you know, the consequences are
14:54
Speaker 8: what they are, and and although it may appear to
14:57
Speaker 8: be too late to help us, it isn't.
15:00
Speaker 1: Joining us now is Mike Gould, founding member NYPD Canine Unit,
15:06
Speaker 1: former police lieutenant, and the president of the Hounds Town charity.
15:12
Speaker 1: I want you to see what Mike has been doing.
15:17
Speaker 9: I'm standing in the foothills of the Arizona.
15:20
Speaker 10: Desert a pleasant one hundred and ten degrees.
15:23
Speaker 9: I'm situated about ten miles south of Tucson, where and
15:27
Speaker 9: between Nicolis and Tucson. Tucson is obviously where Nancy Guthrie disappeared.
15:33
Speaker 10: I will tell you finding a body here would make
15:35
Speaker 10: finding a needle in a haystack as easy as can be.
15:39
Speaker 9: I would give rescue work as a little tip if
15:41
Speaker 9: they all want to close in on a body or remains,
15:45
Speaker 9: look up, not down. Look for birds, Look for vultures,
15:48
Speaker 9: Look for predatory birds that.
15:51
Speaker 10: Are seeking food.
15:52
Speaker 9: So if they're circling around, that would be a good
15:55
Speaker 9: place to start. But if you just try to cover
15:58
Speaker 9: this area you would need it would be impossible. You
16:02
Speaker 9: need either a tip and informant, or follow the birds.
16:05
Speaker 9: They'll bring you to at least probably animal carcasses, but
16:09
Speaker 9: maybe human remains. Who knows.
16:12
Speaker 1: Dobb be thrown off by the name of his charity
16:14
Speaker 1: Hounds Town charity like the dog Hound founding, member of
16:19
Speaker 1: the NYPD K nine unit, former police lieutenant. That just
16:24
Speaker 1: doesn't happen overnight. It's my understanding. Mike Google, first of all,
16:28
Speaker 1: welcome to our program tonight. It's my understanding. You drove
16:32
Speaker 1: from Nancy Guthrie's home all the way to Mexico.
16:37
Speaker 5: What did you learn?
16:40
Speaker 10: Yeah, Nancy, so thanks for having me. So you know,
16:43
Speaker 10: I was very frustrated. I have a difficult time looking
16:45
Speaker 10: at videos and maps and hearing different things. I need
16:49
Speaker 10: to see things to properly conceptualize it. So all to
16:53
Speaker 10: talk about the route from her home to Mexico, I
16:56
Speaker 10: needed to go there to see the terrain, see the geograph.
17:00
Speaker 10: I'm just really intimately understanding. What I learned was when
17:04
Speaker 10: they talk about her being possibly found in nature. Ninety
17:08
Speaker 10: nine percent of Arizona is nature, one percent is the cities,
17:13
Speaker 10: unlike New York City or are the metropolitan areas. So
17:16
Speaker 10: this is a vast, vast desert, hot and humid, which
17:22
Speaker 10: is good actually for discrete recovering remains. But I found
17:27
Speaker 10: that this is going to be it's not possible. You
17:30
Speaker 10: would need an army of humans to search anywhere within
17:34
Speaker 10: the ten mile radius of where she disappeared from.
17:39
Speaker 1: You are seeing from our friend Cheryl McCollum at Zone
17:44
Speaker 1: seven podcast, exactly what Mike Gould is talking about.
17:52
Speaker 5: So, Mike, are you trying.
17:53
Speaker 1: To tell me that the women's group, the Wisconda Carazonis
17:58
Speaker 1: Nigalis is not going to find her because they did
18:02
Speaker 1: find ever twenty sets of remains.
18:05
Speaker 5: I believe it was twenty five.
18:07
Speaker 10: Yeah, well, Nancy, nothing's impossible. But you know, as I
18:11
Speaker 10: said in that video, Umber, the first thing is searchers.
18:15
Speaker 10: The rescue is very well intentioned, but if you're walking
18:17
Speaker 10: through one hundred and ten degree desert with stix looking
18:20
Speaker 10: down at the ground, you might get lucky and trip
18:23
Speaker 10: over a carcass or remains, a human or an animal.
18:26
Speaker 10: But it's going to be pure luck. There's no systemic
18:31
Speaker 10: or systematic process there. You need an informant, You need
18:34
Speaker 10: a starting area. Obviously our home is the starting area,
18:37
Speaker 10: and that's been I hope, fairly well searched. But once
18:40
Speaker 10: you get beyond the one to two miles from her home,
18:44
Speaker 10: you are in complete nature, varying different terrains. So the
18:49
Speaker 10: only hope in my mind is an informant a little
18:52
Speaker 10: bit more information, and as I said, train search and
18:56
Speaker 10: rescuers will use birds, excuse me, predatory birds to bring
19:02
Speaker 10: them to a location of start. Birds and dogs are
19:06
Speaker 10: nature's biosensors. There is no technology that can duplicate what
19:11
Speaker 10: birds and dogs can do. They're the only creatures that
19:13
Speaker 10: can find microscopic odors in the environment. So human visual
19:19
Speaker 10: searches is not going to work. There's no technology drones
19:23
Speaker 10: heat source thing, because there is no heat. Any remains
19:25
Speaker 10: that are there has already assimilated into the temperature of
19:29
Speaker 10: the desert. So dog's nature is going to be the
19:34
Speaker 10: animals I think are going to be the ones once
19:36
Speaker 10: they get a little bit more tip. But they're not
19:37
Speaker 10: magical instruments. You just can't let dogs go through the
19:40
Speaker 10: desert and think you're going to find.
19:41
Speaker 1: Something, okay to Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University,
19:47
Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Fate on Amazon, and star
19:50
Speaker 1: of a hit podcast series Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan.
19:54
Speaker 5: He is a death.
19:54
Speaker 1: Investigator with over ten thousand death scenes under his belt.
19:59
Speaker 1: I know you just heard everything that Mike Gould said,
20:06
Speaker 1: translated death investigator talk.
20:11
Speaker 11: Well, specifically, I love the analogy about a needle in
20:16
Speaker 11: a haystack, making that look easy. I've been in this
20:19
Speaker 11: area of Arizona and Mexico. I was stationed there in
20:23
Speaker 11: the Army many many years ago, and it is vast.
20:27
Speaker 11: It is not like working in a normal, normal environment.
20:31
Speaker 11: Here's the thing that I'm thinking about, relative to the remains.
20:37
Speaker 11: We have this group that has recovered this mass burial
20:41
Speaker 11: down in Mexico. Now we have to emphasize the word
20:45
Speaker 11: burial when they're saying she is with nature. Now, I'm
20:49
Speaker 11: wondering if this was a surface deposition of remains, because
20:54
Speaker 11: I think a lot of people are just assuming they
20:56
Speaker 11: dug a hole in the ground and placed her in there.
20:58
Speaker 11: That might not be the case, Nancy. She may be
21:01
Speaker 11: on top of the ground. And if that's the case,
21:03
Speaker 11: it is going to be very difficult to find her
21:05
Speaker 11: remains because scavengers, scavengers after this period of time would
21:12
Speaker 11: have removed the remains to a great degree, or at
21:14
Speaker 11: least disperse them.
21:16
Speaker 1: Why are you airbrushing the truth? The truth is if
21:22
Speaker 1: she had been miss Guthrie, missus Guthrie, the sweet and
21:27
Speaker 1: gentle Nancy Guthrie had been dumped unceremoniously. Quote in Nature Scavengers,
21:36
Speaker 1: you're talking about animals ripping her body apart, and Savannah,
21:42
Speaker 1: Cameron and Annie have to go to bed every night
21:46
Speaker 1: imagining their mother somewhere, either in an unmarked grave, a
21:54
Speaker 1: shallow grave, or lying on the surface unmarked being torn
22:01
Speaker 1: apart by animals.
22:04
Speaker 5: I believe that's what you're saying.
22:06
Speaker 11: Yes, that is precisely what I'm saying. You know, I
22:11
Speaker 11: don't know how bright these individuals are that committed this crime.
22:16
Speaker 11: They might they might be low IQ for all I know.
22:22
Speaker 1: To Eric Drickerson joining US, former special agent with the
22:27
Speaker 1: FBI twenty years specializing in the international kidnappings. So can
22:32
Speaker 1: we just very quickly and I'm going to bring in
22:34
Speaker 1: David Richards and doctor Delatorre on this as well. Eric Driggerson,
22:39
Speaker 1: you have a witness seemingly stating I know.
22:43
Speaker 5: Where she is.
22:43
Speaker 1: I've seen her. She's in Mexico. Time is of the essence,
22:48
Speaker 1: then writing back, hey, time is no longer of the essence,
22:53
Speaker 1: which supports the theory that was told to kold missus
22:59
Speaker 1: Guthrie Pearish shortly after she was kidnapped. It was unintentional,
23:04
Speaker 1: and they do express regret. My point, Eric to you is,
23:12
Speaker 1: did we technical legal term f up any possibility of
23:20
Speaker 1: finding missus Guthrie or her remains, because reportedly, and I'll
23:26
Speaker 1: circle back to you Tony and Sydney on this, so
23:29
Speaker 1: get ready, reportedly, Savannah wanted to pay the formula. She
23:34
Speaker 1: wanted to either negotiate down to something they could quickly
23:36
Speaker 1: afford or pay, but instead law enforcement convinced her to
23:42
Speaker 1: quote tickle the wire in other words, put some money
23:47
Speaker 1: in that crypto account that's David Richard's specialty, and tickle
23:52
Speaker 1: the kidnapper to see if they could llure them into.
23:56
Speaker 5: Making a move.
23:57
Speaker 1: So they put in one hundred and fifty two dollars,
24:00
Speaker 1: which you know, that's about the price of Chinese food
24:03
Speaker 1: delivery for a family of five. Okay, it didn't work,
24:09
Speaker 1: and the kidnapper was never heard from again. So did
24:13
Speaker 1: we Latin phrase f up all chances of finding her
24:17
Speaker 1: by discounting those emails from the witness, the alleged witness,
24:21
Speaker 1: and by not at least negotiating anything with the purpse.
24:27
Speaker 11: Okay, that's a very good question.
24:28
Speaker 8: The first thing that law enforcement is going to do
24:31
Speaker 8: is they're going to take every piece of reporting, every
24:34
Speaker 8: ransom call, every ransom note, and they're gonna look at
24:38
Speaker 8: basically minimal free aspects. They're going to look at veracity,
24:41
Speaker 8: whether it's true what they're reporting. They're going to look
24:44
Speaker 8: at the credibility of the person or the sources reporting it,
24:49
Speaker 8: and they're going to look at the timeliness of that information.
24:53
Speaker 8: I am sure that in this case they received a
24:56
Speaker 8: plethora of reporting from various sources. My understanding is both
25:04
Speaker 8: the family and law enforcement were able to determine that
25:08
Speaker 8: there was one source of credible reporting that matched in
25:13
Speaker 8: terms of an IP address, and they focused really on that.
25:18
Speaker 8: Now to your question about the ransom demand and the
25:23
Speaker 8: tickler or the minimal payment, that is very unusual to
25:29
Speaker 8: request such a high amount of money and then pay
25:34
Speaker 8: such a low amount, as you mentioned it, it could
25:40
Speaker 8: have the opposite effect of alienating this negotiation process or
25:47
Speaker 8: basically ruining the opportunity that was presented. The intent is
25:55
Speaker 8: to find the source that withdrawals of money or that
25:59
Speaker 8: access this is the one hundred and fifty two dollars.
26:02
Speaker 8: The flip side of that, of course, is you lose
26:05
Speaker 8: the only opportunity that you have that connects you with
26:09
Speaker 8: the abductors.
26:13
Speaker 1: Doctor John Delatory, joining US renowned psychologist specializing in forensic psychology,
26:20
Speaker 1: psychological consultant. Toy Project absentis a nonprofit that searches for
26:25
Speaker 1: missing people. Doctor Delatory. The frustration, the anger, the regret
26:36
Speaker 1: that the family must be feeling if their gut instinct
26:39
Speaker 1: was just pay it, pay what we can, try to negotiate,
26:43
Speaker 1: do anything, bring her home. And now we find out
26:50
Speaker 1: they've known for some time that she's very likely dead,
26:55
Speaker 1: and they did the law enforcement did some tickle the
26:58
Speaker 1: wire trick.
27:02
Speaker 8: Yeah.
27:03
Speaker 6: I can't even imagine what exactly it is, the emotional
27:06
Speaker 6: states that are happening right now because they have spent
27:09
Speaker 6: so long and they requested this a long time ago,
27:13
Speaker 6: the body of their mother back, and they never got it.
27:17
Speaker 6: And so we're talking about anger towards law enforcement. We're
27:20
Speaker 6: talking about anger towards the kidnappers. We're talking about you know,
27:24
Speaker 6: I'm supposed to be this rich and powerful, you know,
27:27
Speaker 6: news personality. Why can't I convince people to just do
27:29
Speaker 6: what I want them to do. There's so many conflicting
27:32
Speaker 6: emotions and it's all unresolved. Was there any opportunity. I
27:38
Speaker 6: doubt that there was really any opportunity for that family
27:41
Speaker 6: to get Nancy back. However, there is still an opportunity
27:45
Speaker 6: for justice, and there is. It's still it's ongoing, and
27:48
Speaker 6: it still hasn't happened. So the brewing nature of it,
27:53
Speaker 6: it's so overwhelming. How difficult it must be to not
27:58
Speaker 6: have any resolution when you know that you could have
28:01
Speaker 6: just paid and potentially gotten at least something instead of
28:06
Speaker 6: what you have right now, which is nothing.
28:08
Speaker 1: And as Sydney Silvani Crime Story's investigative reporter, so this
28:12
Speaker 1: has been in the works for some time. Law enforcement
28:16
Speaker 1: need why did they not release it? We think we
28:19
Speaker 1: know why.
28:20
Speaker 2: Well, there's a couple of reasons that are possible. First
28:23
Speaker 2: is that they thought the public may lose interest in
28:27
Speaker 2: this case if they learned that Guthrie was dead, so
28:30
Speaker 2: they wanted to keep this close to the vest, to
28:33
Speaker 2: keep people bringing in tips searching their memory for what
28:37
Speaker 2: could have possibly happened to her. They were also unable
28:40
Speaker 2: to verify that Nancy Guthrie was dead, but they wanted
28:44
Speaker 2: the chance to be able to independently, independently verify that themselves.
28:50
Speaker 2: And lastly, they wanted to keep this close to the
28:52
Speaker 2: vest because as long as the public wasn't aware of
28:56
Speaker 2: these details, these are things that only the true kidnapper
28:59
Speaker 2: would no So they wanted to be able to verify
29:03
Speaker 2: and make sure that they had the right person, because
29:07
Speaker 2: only the kidnapper would know what language was used in
29:10
Speaker 2: that ransom.
29:10
Speaker 1: Note fast forward to where we are tonight, Straight out
29:14
Speaker 1: to David Richards joining us out of this jurisdiction, Arizona
29:18
Speaker 1: founder CEO block Chain Unmasked and Intelligence from specializing in
29:24
Speaker 1: cryptocurrency related crimes, fraud activity, asset tracing. You can find
29:30
Speaker 1: him at blockchainunmasked dot com. All we have said tonight
29:36
Speaker 1: culminates in your opinion, Now, David Richards, blockchain analysis chasing
29:44
Speaker 1: crypto can be done. Do I have to say Silk Road?
29:49
Speaker 1: Do I have to say IRSDJ the Zang investigation recovering
29:54
Speaker 1: millions and millions of dollars through blockchain analysis. It can
29:58
Speaker 1: be done, and it can still be done.
30:02
Speaker 12: I think in this instance there's a bit more nuance
30:05
Speaker 12: to the situation. The facts that hasn't been fully clarified
30:11
Speaker 12: by the panel just yet. We are not privied to
30:14
Speaker 12: the case file. We don't know exactly what information was
30:18
Speaker 12: available and when we can speculate. I will say, with
30:21
Speaker 12: specifics to the bitcoin and the ransom payment, that February
30:26
Speaker 12: sixth seems to be the reported date of a letter
30:29
Speaker 12: of notice that potentially Nancy Guthrie wasn't still with us.
30:35
Speaker 12: The bitcoin payment was made after that fact, so you
30:41
Speaker 12: know the question of did one cause the other, and
30:43
Speaker 12: it doesn't seem to be the case. It's potentially likely
30:48
Speaker 12: that the bitcoin payment may not have even been by
30:52
Speaker 12: the FBI. Do we have a verification from FBI directly
30:56
Speaker 12: that says we did do this thing? Because the address public,
31:00
Speaker 12: anybody could have made that payment. So there's still some
31:04
Speaker 12: gray area on the facts that could allow us to
31:08
Speaker 12: speculate or not on what actually happened. And without that
31:11
Speaker 12: full case file, it's a bit more challenging to look
31:14
Speaker 12: back hindsight is twenty twenty, What could or should have happened?
31:18
Speaker 12: Did they make a mistake? None of us know exactly
31:22
Speaker 12: the data that they had on hand at the.
31:25
Speaker 1: Time of Well, it seems based on what Harvey Levin
31:29
Speaker 1: is telling us from TMZ that it is the fez
31:34
Speaker 1: in fact who tickled the wire and put the one
31:37
Speaker 1: fifty two in listen.
31:39
Speaker 5: What if.
31:41
Speaker 3: TMZ does a documentary and that we try and get
31:47
Speaker 3: in touch with this guy and even pay the money,
31:51
Speaker 3: and if he takes us to the location, then you
31:57
Speaker 3: get resolution. The gut three family gets resolution. And if
32:01
Speaker 3: he scams us, he scams.
32:03
Speaker 1: Us from TMZ. So the bitcoin address was not public,
32:07
Speaker 1: TMZ knew about it, Kold may have known about it,
32:11
Speaker 1: and the FEDS knew about it. The FED specifically did
32:16
Speaker 1: not want TMZ to pay any money. So it wasn't TMZ.
32:20
Speaker 1: It's not Kold process of elimination, it's the Feds. Eric Driggerson,
32:26
Speaker 1: what are your observations regarding the unusual language by the purpose.
32:33
Speaker 8: The FBI and US government do not pay ransoms. Now,
32:38
Speaker 8: that could be that they deposit an amount for investigative
32:42
Speaker 8: purposes and use it for that purpose. But the ransom
32:47
Speaker 8: demands and subsequent ransom and payments are usually paid by
32:51
Speaker 8: the victims family or a third person. The government has
32:55
Speaker 8: a policy of not paying ransom payments. To your question,
33:00
Speaker 8: to your question about what I'm reading into the into
33:04
Speaker 8: the three notes sent by the kidnappers on she has perished,
33:11
Speaker 8: it's very unusual language to use that. But in statement
33:16
Speaker 8: analysis we look at that as sort of distancing and
33:20
Speaker 8: minimizing the impact or the results of this crime. Uh,
33:24
Speaker 8: parish is a much more delicate word than died or killed,
33:30
Speaker 8: as is she is now with nature, rather than than
33:34
Speaker 8: saying we have left her body somewhere. So I read
33:40
Speaker 8: into that as sort of distancing sell themselves and minimizing
33:44
Speaker 8: their activity in this crime. And the apologetic nature of
33:50
Speaker 8: the ransom of the we're sorry about this is very
33:56
Speaker 8: unusual for organized crime or or or very callous criminals. Uh,
34:03
Speaker 8: they're non apologetic, and that would indicate to me that
34:08
Speaker 8: there is some level of of of remorse and there
34:12
Speaker 8: is some level of pressure that's being applied to these
34:16
Speaker 8: these criminals that they're just trying to shake off. But again,
34:20
Speaker 8: it's a very unusual thing for a criminal, especially a
34:23
Speaker 8: season criminal organized crime, to apologize for the results of
34:28
Speaker 8: their activities. Well.
34:30
Speaker 1: Also, there are speculations rampant tonight, Eric Jriggerson that the
34:37
Speaker 1: author of at least one of the notes is a female.
34:41
Speaker 8: Yeah, that's that's a very interesting observation, although it doesn't
34:45
Speaker 8: fall without the out of the realm of possibility, because
34:49
Speaker 8: of course it could be either gender non you know,
34:52
Speaker 8: we don't know until we know, as we say. But
34:56
Speaker 8: also kidnappers can use somebody else to conduct the negotiation process,
35:06
Speaker 8: and that serves two purposes, one the method in which
35:10
Speaker 8: they communicate, the language which they use, and also provides
35:13
Speaker 8: another layer of protection for the perpetrators. So it's not
35:17
Speaker 8: surprising that it could be a female, it could be
35:19
Speaker 8: a male, it could be something that's not directly involved
35:23
Speaker 8: in the physical abduction or physical kidnapping.
35:27
Speaker 1: You know, I think I'm trying to process everything you're saying.
35:31
Speaker 1: There's one thing I can tell you. The guy, the
35:35
Speaker 1: porch guy. We gave him that moniker at the get go.
35:40
Speaker 1: That is not who wrote these missives. No, he's bumbling,
35:46
Speaker 1: it's not him. He did not write. Then back to
35:49
Speaker 1: David Richards joining a CEO blockchain unmasked dot Com. David,
35:56
Speaker 1: back to my original question. There have been many, many
35:59
Speaker 1: successful blockchain prosecutions. They can be traced. So can we
36:05
Speaker 1: do that now, because we are told that the fans
36:09
Speaker 1: are working on that. Still they haven't given up.
36:14
Speaker 12: Yeah, blockchain is absolutely traceable. It's on a public ledger,
36:18
Speaker 12: so we can always most times determine the flow of
36:21
Speaker 12: funds from sender to recipient and onwards. So that is possible.
36:27
Speaker 12: The one hundred and fifty two dollars potential some that
36:31
Speaker 12: was deposited into the author's wallet is traceable if it
36:36
Speaker 12: were to move. From what I know, it hasn't moved.
36:39
Speaker 12: What I would believe is that it's not significant enough
36:42
Speaker 12: to move. However, I believe it's more likely that, if
36:47
Speaker 12: again we're taking what Harvey said is true, the FBI
36:51
Speaker 12: or federal law enforcement did make that payment even after
36:54
Speaker 12: the fact that they got a notice that that Nancy
36:57
Speaker 12: Guthrie may not be alive. It may have been to
37:00
Speaker 12: elicit a response, an additional communication via email or some
37:04
Speaker 12: other way the attacker says, hey, what's up with that?
37:08
Speaker 12: Something that will entice some more interaction, not just blockchain related.
37:13
Speaker 12: We can trace blockchain transactions. However, to close the case,
37:18
Speaker 12: we need a lot more evidence, open source intelligence, location information,
37:23
Speaker 12: more data to be able to identify an actor.
37:31
Speaker 1: Just got Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University and Star
37:34
Speaker 1: of Bodybags with Scott Morgan. Joe, what can you tell
37:38
Speaker 1: me regarding the hard evidence that we have that we
37:43
Speaker 1: know of that would indicate Missus Guthrie is dead?
37:51
Speaker 11: I hold to this, and I have from the beginning.
37:54
Speaker 11: She was violently assaulted at Jump Street. We have her blood.
37:59
Speaker 11: There have that blood deposition on the front porch. That's
38:03
Speaker 11: evidence that didn't just spontaneously happen. This is trauma related.
38:08
Speaker 11: She is either she is expiating blood there. We can
38:12
Speaker 11: see it in the finer drops, and it's coming out
38:15
Speaker 11: of her nose, in her mouth. So I still, you know,
38:18
Speaker 11: I felt like that she was probably popped in the
38:20
Speaker 11: mouth or popped in the nose just to try to
38:22
Speaker 11: subdue her. Maybe she was resisting being carried out. I
38:25
Speaker 11: have no idea. And then you couple that with her need.
38:29
Speaker 11: This is a this is this poor woman. Nancy is
38:34
Speaker 11: barely ambulatory. In other words, she cannot even move around
38:38
Speaker 11: without some kind of assistance. And she's depended upon medications
38:43
Speaker 11: Nancy to have any level of quality of life. All right,
38:48
Speaker 11: So she's been deprived of that, she's been traumatized. Yeah,
38:52
Speaker 11: you know, if you're expecting me to say that that
38:57
Speaker 11: I'm surprised that she's deceased, I will never say that.
39:00
Speaker 11: I've felt like this from the beginning, and so there's
39:04
Speaker 11: no surprises here. I think that all all signs point
39:08
Speaker 11: to the fact that she is deceased and has been
39:10
Speaker 11: deceased for some time.
39:12
Speaker 1: Mike Gould, who has conducted extensive searches for her, driving
39:22
Speaker 1: all the way from her home to Mexico. Mike, based
39:25
Speaker 1: on what we are hearing without a witness, which has
39:31
Speaker 1: been totally that bridge has been burned, finding her is
39:38
Speaker 1: truly like a needle in a haystack.
39:42
Speaker 10: Yeah, absolutely, Nancy. One thing I'd point out, you know,
39:44
Speaker 10: death investigations, discovery of human remains is a mor big topic,
39:49
Speaker 10: but we kind of have to talk about it bluntly.
39:52
Speaker 10: And I agree with Joseph completely. Within the first seventy
39:55
Speaker 10: two hours of this case, Nancy Guthrie never fit the
39:58
Speaker 10: profile of a kidnapp victim in any way, shape or form.
40:02
Speaker 10: She's eighty four year old, pre existing medical conditions, limited mobility,
40:07
Speaker 10: and her blood was found at the crime scene. So
40:11
Speaker 10: and there was never ever proof of life after that fact.
40:14
Speaker 10: So to and again we hope springs eternal. We would
40:17
Speaker 10: love to know that she was taken somewhere and she's
40:20
Speaker 10: being held somewhere in Mexico. We started chasing shadows, if
40:23
Speaker 10: you remember, we were looking at gloves hidden in at
40:27
Speaker 10: a homeless encampment. We thought that was the glove of
40:29
Speaker 10: the person on the porch, So we're chasing shadows, and
40:33
Speaker 10: at this point it is still like finding a needle
40:35
Speaker 10: in the haystack without an informant or if this female,
40:39
Speaker 10: possible female person is related somehow to the kidnapper and
40:43
Speaker 10: wants to soften up rather than say, my boyfriend dumped
40:47
Speaker 10: the body, she said she's in nature to soften the
40:50
Speaker 10: blow and maybe trying to, you know, make sense of
40:52
Speaker 10: this out of guilt. These are the things that I'm
40:55
Speaker 10: hoping and I think it might happen. I think we're
40:58
Speaker 10: going to get a little bit more information regarding finding
41:01
Speaker 10: her remains. That's gonna be a little challenging. It's not
41:03
Speaker 10: going to happen without an informant or some evidence to
41:06
Speaker 10: who somewhere she is, because you cannot search the Arizona
41:09
Speaker 10: desert randomly with I don't care what technology you're using.
41:14
Speaker 10: You know, dogs and nature are very good, as I said,
41:17
Speaker 10: biosensors and recovering human remains. We do it quite frequently,
41:22
Speaker 10: and the Arizona Desert frankly, Mumma pies remains rather than
41:27
Speaker 10: liquefies them. So there are some potential. There's possibilities as
41:33
Speaker 10: far as scavenger animals. Certainly they're going to disperse birds
41:36
Speaker 10: and scavengers they'll disperse the remains, but dogs could if
41:41
Speaker 10: they're in a certain area, certainly find those They could
41:45
Speaker 10: detect those things, because frankly, it hasn't been that way.
41:47
Speaker 10: I'm working on a case that's twenty five years old
41:49
Speaker 10: looking for a woman's remains upstate New York. So it's possible.
41:53
Speaker 10: And this case isn't going on as long as one
41:56
Speaker 10: would think. For us, we want it. It's in the
41:57
Speaker 10: public domain and we want resolution to it. But my
42:03
Speaker 10: hope is that the case is going to be solved.
42:05
Speaker 10: Maybe not this month, maybe not this year, but it's
42:08
Speaker 10: going to be resolved, and hopefully somebody may confess to
42:12
Speaker 10: where her body.
42:13
Speaker 1: Is to Tony Bruski joining US podcast Star of Hidden
42:20
Speaker 1: Killers with Tony Bruski Tony apology, schm apology, I don't care.
42:34
Speaker 1: All last night the social media, the internet was breaking
42:38
Speaker 1: with they did apologize, No, they didn't. Who cares if
42:42
Speaker 1: she's dead? Who cares if it was intentional? Not intentional?
42:47
Speaker 1: Because a felony murder if a death occurs during the
42:53
Speaker 1: commission of a felony. That case is prosecuted as murder,
42:58
Speaker 1: one which triggers the Arizona death penalty, which right now
43:05
Speaker 1: is the needle. So we've got an assortment of underlying felonies.
43:10
Speaker 1: You can go with burglary. Her home was burgled, that's
43:14
Speaker 1: the first felony. Second kidnap taken, even if just out
43:20
Speaker 1: her front door. Under the theory, the legal theory of asportation,
43:25
Speaker 1: if I kidnap you and I take you two inches,
43:28
Speaker 1: it's a kidnap versus to Mexico, still a kidnap. There's
43:32
Speaker 1: no legal requirement of how far you have to take
43:34
Speaker 1: the victim. So I've already got burglary, kidnap, aggravated assault.
43:40
Speaker 5: Do I need a gun? Do I need a knife?
43:41
Speaker 10: No?
43:41
Speaker 1: I do not. The weapon for aggravator assault can be
43:45
Speaker 1: a car. It can be a baseball bat. It can
43:47
Speaker 1: be a foot, it can be a hand. Aggravated assault.
43:52
Speaker 1: I've already named three felonies to underlife felony, murder.
43:57
Speaker 5: I don't care who says, where's sorry.
44:02
Speaker 1: If this is all true, Missus Guthrie is dead and Savannah,
44:07
Speaker 1: Annie and Cameron have to live with that every day.
44:11
Speaker 1: In nature my rear end, that's a disposal site somewhere
44:16
Speaker 1: in the Mexican desert. That's what in nature means. It
44:19
Speaker 1: makes me think of have you ever seen snow white?
44:23
Speaker 1: And she goes out and the little birds are flying
44:25
Speaker 1: all around her. What a crowd of b s in nature.
44:32
Speaker 1: I want her brought home for a proper burial. I
44:36
Speaker 1: want these jackals behind bars at the.
44:39
Speaker 7: Least, without a doubt. You want these people behind bars.
44:44
Speaker 7: And I think, I think, what what? The key part
44:48
Speaker 7: of this is these these notes, these these pieces of
44:51
Speaker 7: information that we're now learning about. They tell us something about.
44:56
Speaker 5: Who these people are.
44:58
Speaker 7: More than it is softened the blow of what happened,
45:03
Speaker 7: It tells us a note like this probably did not
45:07
Speaker 7: come from a career criminal. It probably did not come
45:09
Speaker 7: from someone who has a lot of reps in kidnapping people.
45:13
Speaker 7: When when you look at this, does any of this
45:15
Speaker 7: sound like anyone truly even wanted to have Nancy Guthrie
45:19
Speaker 7: in their possession to begin with? This feels much more
45:22
Speaker 7: like someone who's trying to find a way to basically
45:26
Speaker 7: monetize a mistake and they realized, oh, it's not so
45:31
Speaker 7: easy to get a ransom paid to begin with, and
45:35
Speaker 7: then did the best they could with not a lot
45:38
Speaker 7: of knowledge on the topic. So while the notes, I
45:42
Speaker 7: feel the rage putting work in there that's softened the blow,
45:46
Speaker 7: but I don't think that's the intent. I think what
45:48
Speaker 7: we need to glean out of this is this is
45:50
Speaker 7: probably not a cartel, This is probably not a career criminal.
45:53
Speaker 7: This is probably someone who went in for something other
45:56
Speaker 7: than Nancy, maybe even the wrong house, is how I
46:00
Speaker 7: am looking at this, and ended up in a debacle
46:04
Speaker 7: that they took a shot at. Maybe monetizing didn't work
46:07
Speaker 7: out too well, and now they have gone underground, And
46:10
Speaker 7: if we want to get them to communicate, we need
46:13
Speaker 7: to inspire them to and I think.
46:16
Speaker 5: Going, here's all the things we're gonna get you for.
46:18
Speaker 5: We're going to put you to death.
46:20
Speaker 7: That's the last thing that's going to get them to
46:22
Speaker 7: come for. And that's what the verbiage.
46:25
Speaker 1: Well, if they have, if anyone hasn't come forward with
46:28
Speaker 1: one point two plus million dollars on the table, they ain't,
46:32
Speaker 1: they ain't. We're gonna need a witness. Speaking of if
46:36
Speaker 1: you know or think you know anything about missus Guthrie's disappearance,
46:42
Speaker 1: call Tolfree eight hundred two two five, five, three two four,
46:45
Speaker 1: The reward one point two million dollars plus still on
46:49
Speaker 1: the table. We remember American hero Sergeant Gregory Hunter, Grand
46:54
Speaker 1: Prairie PD, Texas, shot in the line of duty, leaving
46:59
Speaker 1: behind wife Denise, daughter Aaron. American hero Sergeant Gregory Hunter.
47:08
Speaker 1: Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for
47:10
Speaker 1: being with us tonight. Nancy Gray signing off for tonight,
47:13
Speaker 1: but I'll see you tomorrow night, and until then, good
47:15
Speaker 1: night friend,