Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #976 Abigail Shrier's Bad Therapy

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#976 Abigail Shrier's Bad Therapy · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:03
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.
0:05
Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just
0:09
Speaker 2: answers Now. Hello, this is the Happy Family's podcast. My
0:13
Speaker 2: name's doctor Justin Courson. So good to have you along
0:15
Speaker 2: today on the podcast. An interview with the Difference. I've
0:18
Speaker 2: been trying to get a hold of Abigail Shreier. She's
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Speaker 2: the author of a book that I found compelling a
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Speaker 2: few years ago, called Irreversible Damage. It was a controversial
0:26
Speaker 2: on provocative book. Some people really got mad at me
0:28
Speaker 2: because I read it and said that it was quite useful.
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Speaker 2: But she's got a brand new book out once again
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Speaker 2: highly provocative. It seems that she likes to take on
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Speaker 2: topics that are going to be challenging. The book is
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Speaker 2: called Bad Therapy, Why the Kids Aren't Growing Up. This
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Speaker 2: is a book that's all about emotions. It's a book
0:46
Speaker 2: that's all about what's going on with our kids and
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Speaker 2: why there are so many challenges Now. I've reached out
0:51
Speaker 2: to Abigail Shreyer a couple of times to try and
0:53
Speaker 2: get her on the podcast. She's been a little bit
0:55
Speaker 2: busy on a whole lot of other podcasts, like Joe
0:58
Speaker 2: Rogan and the ones where there are two million people
1:00
Speaker 2: that listen to every episode. Now we're doing okay on
1:03
Speaker 2: this podcast, but we're not quite at that level. So
1:05
Speaker 2: being a little parenting podcast in Australia, we're not quite
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Speaker 2: at the Abigail Shriyer level at this point, it seems,
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Speaker 2: although we will keep on trying in the meantime though,
1:13
Speaker 2: because it's such an important conversation, because it's so provocative
1:16
Speaker 2: and there are so many things that we can pull
1:18
Speaker 2: out of it. What I'm going to do is share
1:20
Speaker 2: a couple of snippets from a discussion that Abigail Shriyer
1:24
Speaker 2: had with Barry Weiss of the Honestly podcast. Honestly with
1:28
Speaker 2: Barry Weiss is the name of that podcast. The first
1:31
Speaker 2: thing that I want to share with you was how
1:33
Speaker 2: we got to be where we are. That is why
1:35
Speaker 2: are so many kids struggling with the mental health and
1:39
Speaker 2: why is therapy so popular among our young generation.
1:44
Speaker 1: I'm the tail end of jen X. I was born
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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy eight, and when I was in high school,
1:49
Speaker 1: America reached the high water mark of divorce. Our families
1:54
Speaker 1: were being broken up at rates that America hadn't seen,
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Speaker 1: and a lot of people my age grew into it
2:00
Speaker 1: adulthood and they really felt like emotionally they were undersupported
2:04
Speaker 1: by their childhoods and by their parents. And my generation
2:08
Speaker 1: was a big believer in therapy. We went into therapy
2:10
Speaker 1: in greater numbers than any prior generation. We loved the
2:13
Speaker 1: movie Goodwill Hunting and we thought, therapy is how you
2:16
Speaker 1: get better, It's how you make yourself strong and get
2:18
Speaker 1: the girl, and we went into therapy. We started exploring
2:21
Speaker 1: our own childhoods. The best parenting books were written by therapists,
2:25
Speaker 1: and we read them all and we convinced ourselves that
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Speaker 1: we could become the most emotionally supportive parents. We were
2:32
Speaker 1: going to be there for our kids. We were going
2:34
Speaker 1: to understand them, We're going to be close to our kids,
2:37
Speaker 1: and most important of all, we were going to shield
2:40
Speaker 1: our kids from trauma, any emotional pain, because that's what
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Speaker 1: we learned. Trauma can come from any source. It can
2:48
Speaker 1: come from a bad grade, it can come from a
2:50
Speaker 1: friend dropping you, and we were going to save our
2:53
Speaker 1: children from ever experiencing this trauma. We had this idea
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Speaker 1: that if we just watched enough and we just poured
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Speaker 1: more hours into were a children report more than anyone else,
3:02
Speaker 1: we could save them from ever having emotional pain.
3:05
Speaker 2: Now I'm reading the book at the moment. I'll be
3:07
Speaker 2: discussing it more on the Happy Family's Book Club podcast
3:10
Speaker 2: coming up in a couple of weeks, But there are
3:12
Speaker 2: some really interesting ideas here. First of all, Australia has
3:15
Speaker 2: generally followed this United States trend. We're a very different
3:18
Speaker 2: nation and we haven't quite gone exactly the same way
3:22
Speaker 2: as the US, But the general things that Shreier is
3:24
Speaker 2: talking about in this conversation are pretty consistent with what
3:28
Speaker 2: has happened in Australia, especially over the last few years,
3:33
Speaker 2: as the word trauma has become common place and really
3:37
Speaker 2: part of educational and parenting parlance. To give you an
3:41
Speaker 2: idea of how things have changed, around about ten years ago,
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Speaker 2: I wrote a book called Nine Ways to a Resilient Child.
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Speaker 2: At the time, nobody was talking about trauma, and I
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Speaker 2: pretty much didn't write about trauma at all in the book.
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Speaker 2: The world has changed that much now. The second thing
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Speaker 2: that I want to play to you from the Honestly
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Speaker 2: podcast with Barry Weiss is where Shria starts to talk
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Speaker 2: about how trauma and specifically how therapy may be exacerbating
4:12
Speaker 2: the very problems we're trying to stop in our young people.
4:15
Speaker 1: The number one symptom of depression is rumination or dwelling
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Speaker 1: on past pain, rehearsing bad memories in a loop. At
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Speaker 1: the very least, if nothing else, we have more rumination
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Speaker 1: than we've ever seen before. So it may be that
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Speaker 1: kids are more open about their mental health struggles and
4:36
Speaker 1: it is less stigmatized, But they are also engaging in
4:40
Speaker 1: the behavior that is the number one symptom of depression,
4:43
Speaker 1: that is rehearsing and telling surveys about all their bad
4:46
Speaker 1: thoughts and feelings. So that's an indication in and of
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Speaker 1: itself that the rates of depression have gone up. But
4:53
Speaker 1: we're not just seeing depression. We're hearing about summer anxiety,
4:58
Speaker 1: relocation anxiety. What's summer anxiety. That's an anxiety a child
5:03
Speaker 1: might find over the summer when they can't play with
5:05
Speaker 1: their friends, relocation anxiety when your parents move to a
5:08
Speaker 1: new place, social phobia, when you have trouble making friends.
5:12
Speaker 1: They have so dialed down mental disorder that you'll see
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Speaker 1: that it applies to basically the entire experience of the
5:20
Speaker 1: human condition. And we have a very diagnosed group of
5:25
Speaker 1: young people who are convinced that they have these mental
5:28
Speaker 1: health disorders because we apply them over everything that used
5:33
Speaker 1: to be just considered heartbreak. No, that's depression, worry, No,
5:37
Speaker 1: that's anxiety, shyness, No, that's social anxiety.
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Speaker 2: So this is fascinating to me and something that I
5:43
Speaker 2: tend to agree with, I also struggle with. So there
5:47
Speaker 2: is value in having labels where somebody is genuinely experiencing
5:51
Speaker 2: psychological challenge. However, a label is something that some people
5:56
Speaker 2: will live into, and once they have that label, it's
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Speaker 2: something that becomes I guess, almost a crach or an excuse. Now, please,
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Speaker 2: if you have a label. I'm not saying that that's
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Speaker 2: what will happen. It's a risk in some cases. And increasingly,
6:12
Speaker 2: as I work in schools and I work with families,
6:15
Speaker 2: and I talk to people who are struggling, and I
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Speaker 2: engage with psychologists and mental health support workers and whoever else,
6:21
Speaker 2: what I'm seeing more and more is that we seem
6:23
Speaker 2: to be looking for increasing levels of labeling to explain
6:29
Speaker 2: what's going on. There are challenges with that, and we
6:32
Speaker 2: need to be mindful of it. Again, the book's really
6:35
Speaker 2: provocative around this. I think that she sometimes takes positions
6:38
Speaker 2: that are far more extreme than are necessary, but the
6:41
Speaker 2: conversation is fascinating. Abigail Schreier is the author of Bad Therapy,
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Speaker 2: Why the Kids Aren't Growing Up. In fact, she describes
6:50
Speaker 2: that a lot of kids don't want to grow up,
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Speaker 2: and right in her sights, as this book is progressing,
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Speaker 2: Schreier is really really tough to task those who work
7:02
Speaker 2: in therapeutic environments, particularly those who work in what's known
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Speaker 2: as a psychodynamic environment. People who are doing psychotherapy now
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Speaker 2: that is different to something like cognitive behavioral therapy, and
7:13
Speaker 2: Australia is very much oriented towards CBT. There are some
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Speaker 2: psychodynamic psychotherapeutic approaches in Australia that are gaining popularity, but
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Speaker 2: it's mainly a CBT environment, which is quite different to
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Speaker 2: the US. From that point of view, Australia is doing
7:28
Speaker 2: a whole lot better than what Shri makes out. Nevertheless,
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Speaker 2: she introduces a word that I hadn't heard of before.
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Speaker 2: The word is Iatrogenics have listened to what she has
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Speaker 2: to say about this as it relates to therapy.
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Speaker 1: I want to introduce a word. It's iatrogenesis, and niatrogenesis
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Speaker 1: is a Greek word meaning when the healer introduces harm.
7:51
Speaker 1: And what I want people to know is that any intervention,
7:55
Speaker 1: no matter how good, from thailanol to X rays and
8:00
Speaker 1: carry risk. They all come with some degree of risk.
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Speaker 1: Now when we need them, when you need the tile
8:06
Speaker 1: and all, it's worth the risk. And when you don't
8:09
Speaker 1: need the intervention, when you don't need the medication, you
8:13
Speaker 1: don't stand to benefit. Therefore you're only exposed to the risk.
8:17
Speaker 1: So go to the er if you need it, absolutely,
8:21
Speaker 1: But of course the er is filled with things like
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Speaker 1: MRSA and other bacteria you may pick up while you're there,
8:25
Speaker 1: so don't go if you don't need it. The same
8:27
Speaker 1: is true with X rays. Of course we know we
8:29
Speaker 1: don't need the extra radiation. But what people don't may
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Speaker 1: not know, is that psychotherapy also comes with iatrogenic harms,
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Speaker 1: and that researchers have looked into this and they have
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Speaker 1: found a lot of harms that therapy can and does
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Speaker 1: cause in some percentage of the population, like increasing anxiety,
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Speaker 1: like increasing depression, like making PTSD worse, like robbing a
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Speaker 1: patient of a feeling of efficacy that they can do
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Speaker 1: anything to improve their own life, like feeling that they
9:01
Speaker 1: are limited by this new diagnosis they just got, and
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Speaker 1: alienation from family members is another one that can come
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Speaker 1: out of therapy. These are all risks that are worth it,
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Speaker 1: of course if you really need the therapy. But if
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Speaker 1: you don't need the therapy, all you're exposing a child
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Speaker 1: to is the risk.
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Speaker 2: And one of the main things that Shreia talks about
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Speaker 2: in the book is that we are exposing our children
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Speaker 2: to a whole lot of therapy, which means that we
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Speaker 2: potentially are exposing them to a whole lot of risk.
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Speaker 2: Abigail Schreyer is the author of Bad Therapy While the
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Speaker 2: Kids Aren't Growing Up, and she spoke with Barry Weiss
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Speaker 2: on the Honestly podcast. Here she explains bad therapy and
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Speaker 2: who suffers the most when it comes to this iatrogenesis what.
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Speaker 1: I call bad therapy, that is iatrogenic therapy on the
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Speaker 1: entire generation. They are swimming it now. In terms of
9:56
Speaker 1: boys and girls, there's no question of teen girls are
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Speaker 1: suffering the most. In terms of mental health. They had
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Speaker 1: the highest rates of anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation, suicidal harm.
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Speaker 1: And one of the interesting things about these girls is
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Speaker 1: when I interviewed their families, when I interviewed them. Nearly
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Speaker 1: all of them had a therapist. And here's the thing
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Speaker 1: that surprised me. You know, it seems like the most
10:20
Speaker 1: helpful and innocuous thing in the world. Ask a kid regularly,
10:25
Speaker 1: how are you feeling? Well? What's the harm in that? Right?
10:27
Speaker 1: You're checking in with your child, you're checking in with
10:30
Speaker 1: you know, your student. But it turns out, and there's
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Speaker 1: a lot of good research behind this, a lot of
10:35
Speaker 1: it's conducted by Iris Mouse out of Berkeley that constantly
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Speaker 1: focusing on your feelings and taking your emotional temperature and
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Speaker 1: thinking your feelings are an important signal that enough is
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Speaker 1: alone to make you much less happy. And parents no
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Speaker 1: longer trust their own judgment even with their own children.
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Speaker 1: They believe they have to rely on a mental health professional.
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Speaker 1: And that little bit of self doubt, that sense that
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Speaker 1: I can't decide what's bad for my kid or good
11:04
Speaker 1: for my child, because of course I'm not a neurobiologist
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Speaker 1: or a neuropsychologist. That self doubt has unfortunately allowed parents
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Speaker 1: to step aside and allowed all kinds of interlopers to
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Speaker 1: come between parent and child. And this case, I argue
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Speaker 1: in the book that the number one interloper that we've
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Speaker 1: all sort of ceded our authority to really is the
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Speaker 1: mental health professional, and they're having their way with our kids,
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Speaker 1: and it's really really making the mental health of a
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Speaker 1: generation much worse.
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Speaker 2: Oh, you can see how provocative this is and maybe
11:36
Speaker 2: why I'm loving the book so much. Some very easy
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Speaker 2: to agree with, some very challenging to accept. In her
11:43
Speaker 2: sites as well as those who practice psychotherapy are the
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Speaker 2: school counselors, those who are working in an adjunct role,
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Speaker 2: in a role that's not actually a mental health care role,
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Speaker 2: people who are not trained to be doing this work,
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Speaker 2: but who step into that anyway. There's a lot of
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Speaker 2: a lot of lifting done around the problem with restorative
12:02
Speaker 2: practice and restorative circles in schools, which is something that
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Speaker 2: I've argued is not done well most of the time
12:09
Speaker 2: in most schools. It's a really big challenge. And then
12:13
Speaker 2: gentle parenting comes in for a bit of firing.
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Speaker 1: This was the ultimate in therapeutic parenting. Remember, a therapist
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Speaker 1: doesn't judge, and they don't put themselves above you. They
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Speaker 1: simply meet you where you are and try to understand
12:26
Speaker 1: your pain and they give you choices. And that is
12:30
Speaker 1: the way parents are to conduct themselves. They don't ever discipline.
12:33
Speaker 1: They try never to say no if they can avoid it.
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Speaker 1: They certainly never punish, and they wouldn't even think of spanking.
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Speaker 1: In fact, a time out is too much for them,
12:43
Speaker 1: that's too much trauma. They instead give the child a
12:46
Speaker 1: series of choices. Would you prefer the red cup or
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Speaker 1: the blue cup? Oh no, you spilled your cheerios on
12:52
Speaker 1: the floor. You just threw the cup at me. What
12:54
Speaker 1: should we do about that? And it's this series of
12:58
Speaker 1: questions and always meeting the child at his or her level.
13:02
Speaker 1: And I can only tell you that the parenting blogs
13:05
Speaker 1: of parents who try this are hilarious because it turns
13:09
Speaker 1: out being the gentle parent doesn't necessarily mean you raise
13:13
Speaker 1: the gentle child. Oh gosh, it's horrible to punish your child.
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Speaker 1: Punishing a child is the hardest thing parents ever have
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Speaker 1: to do. It is time consuming, it makes you feel lame,
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Speaker 1: you feel you feel like principal ruiny. It's horrible, and
13:29
Speaker 1: you make your kid really mad at you. And you
13:31
Speaker 1: know what, you love your kid and you love your
13:32
Speaker 1: relationship with your kid. Punishing your kids is the single
13:36
Speaker 1: hardest thing you ever have to do. It's awful. And
13:39
Speaker 1: so the idea that you could raise gentle children, you know,
13:44
Speaker 1: wonderful children who are thoughtful into adulthood without ever making
13:48
Speaker 1: them feel bad is such an attractive notion. If it worked,
13:53
Speaker 1: I would be one thousand percent behind it, because let
13:55
Speaker 1: me tell you something, when I have to send a
13:58
Speaker 1: kid to his room in the middle of it wrecks
14:00
Speaker 1: my whole dinner. It's awful. And then you have to
14:04
Speaker 1: meet you know, you don't you worry about, oh, did
14:06
Speaker 1: they get enough to eat? And you know, how long
14:09
Speaker 1: are they going to be mad at me? Because they're
14:10
Speaker 1: going to be mad at me? And it's an awful
14:12
Speaker 1: thing to do. And the idea that we can short
14:15
Speaker 1: circuit it, that we can raise good adults without ever
14:19
Speaker 1: being the authoritative parent, Gosh, that's attractive.
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Speaker 2: So this is the most frustrating part of the book. Clearly,
14:27
Speaker 2: Abigail Shayer is not a parenting expert and hasn't done
14:29
Speaker 2: a PhD in psychology, And as much as she might
14:32
Speaker 2: have some good ideas, and it's really provocative ideas. I mean,
14:35
Speaker 2: I love the challenge of this book because there are
14:37
Speaker 2: so many things that are almost right, and there are
14:40
Speaker 2: so many things that are dead on, But there are
14:42
Speaker 2: also a handful of things that Abigail Shier just gets
14:45
Speaker 2: completely wrong. This was one of the worst chapters that
14:48
Speaker 2: I read in the entire book. I wish that she
14:50
Speaker 2: had read my book. I'm not huge on gentle parenting.
14:53
Speaker 2: I've been really clear about that, but what I am
14:56
Speaker 2: big one is that if we can understand our children's
14:58
Speaker 2: basic psychological needs and create the right environment, we're going
15:01
Speaker 2: to get much much better results. All right, So the
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Speaker 2: last thing that she said that I wanted to share
15:06
Speaker 2: with you, as Abigail Schreyer, the author of Bad Therapy
15:11
Speaker 2: While the Kids Aren't Growing Up, in her conversation with
15:15
Speaker 2: Barry Weiss on the Honestly podcast, the last thing I
15:18
Speaker 2: want to share with you is her final advice.
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Speaker 1: The thing I want parents to think about is that
15:23
Speaker 1: kids have too much of everything right now. They're being
15:27
Speaker 1: hit by too much too much tech, too much surveillance,
15:30
Speaker 1: too much therapy, too much adult oversight, not enough time alone,
15:35
Speaker 1: not enough time with quiet, not enough time with other friends.
15:38
Speaker 1: Parents need to subtract themselves and subtract the tech too.
15:42
Speaker 1: They need to raise kids with authority so that they
15:45
Speaker 1: tell the kids, here are the rules, right and wrong.
15:47
Speaker 1: Now use your judgment, and they need to be able
15:50
Speaker 1: to have confidence, you know, or take the risk that
15:52
Speaker 1: their kids will do just fine on their own and
15:55
Speaker 1: have that confidence. But there's something else too, when a
15:59
Speaker 1: child runs into a problem, when they start suffering in
16:03
Speaker 1: some manner and the parent considers letting them off easy
16:07
Speaker 1: or asking for an accommodation in school. Here's what I
16:10
Speaker 1: want parents to ask themselves. Will this make my child stronger?
16:16
Speaker 1: If the answer is yes, you're helping your child alive.
16:19
Speaker 1: If the answer is no, don't do it.
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Speaker 2: This book is a fascinating read. It's Abigail Shreier, the
16:26
Speaker 2: author of Bad Therapy, Why the Kids Aren't Growing Up?
16:30
Speaker 2: And those snippets were from the Honestly podcast with Barry Weiss.
16:35
Speaker 2: You know what, The book slams therapists. The book slams trauma.
16:39
Speaker 2: The book slams asking questions like how are you feeling
16:44
Speaker 2: and getting kids focused on their emotions. And there's a
16:48
Speaker 2: lot to hate about that, and there's also a lot
16:50
Speaker 2: to like about it. In essence, I'm feeling like there's
16:54
Speaker 2: going to be more major disappointment in this book than brilliance,
16:58
Speaker 2: but so many thoughtful provocations and I'm really enjoying it.
17:02
Speaker 2: Can't wait to give you my book review in just
17:05
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks on the Happy Families Podcast, when
17:07
Speaker 2: we dive into everything Kylie and I have been reading
17:10
Speaker 2: for now, though, that is it for today. Tomorrow it's
17:13
Speaker 2: an Zac Day, so we won't be around. We'll be
17:15
Speaker 2: back on Friday with I'll Do Better Tomorrow. The Happy
17:18
Speaker 2: Families Podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media.
17:21
Speaker 2: Craig Bruce is our executive producer and for more information
17:24
Speaker 2: about making your family happier, we'd love for you to
17:27
Speaker 2: visit us at happy families dot com dot you and
17:29
Speaker 2: check out my book, The Parenting Revolution