Latest / NO FILTER / _Brain drain__ Why the loss of international students will have reverberations on the economy(MP3_160K)

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_Brain drain__ Why the loss of international students will have reverberations on the economy(MP3_160K) · NO FILTER

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: And joining US now. MSNBAC is Antonia Hilton from Cambridge, Massachusetts.
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: MSNBAC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin, MSNBC contributor Charlie Sykes, and
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  Speaker 1: former Massachusetts Congressman and former Special Envoy to Northern Ireland
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Joe Kennedy. Lisa, you've been monitoring the hearing. I understand
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: they're in recess right now. There was this eleventh hour filing.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: What came of it?
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  Speaker 2: It sounds like the judge Anna isn't buying this eleventh
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: hour filing as something that changes the posture of the case.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: And let me just review what the administration filed. It
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  Speaker 2: was a letter that they sent Harvard yesterday informing them
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: of their intent to terminate their ability to enroll foreign students.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: And if that makes you say, hey, wait a second,
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: didn't they already do that?
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  Speaker 1: They did.
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  Speaker 2: But what they said previously was we're going to immediately
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  Speaker 2: revoke your ability to enroll foreign students now and for
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  Speaker 2: the future. Now, the administration has sort of taken a
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  Speaker 2: step back and sent Harvard the kind of letter they
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: should have sent originally, referring to the regulatory framework for
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: how you are properly supposed to terminate a university's enrollment
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: in what's called CEVP. That's the program that allows any
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  Speaker 2: university throughout the country to enroll foreign students who aren't
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: here on immigrant visas, but rather permission to study here
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  Speaker 2: in the.
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  Speaker 1: Country Student and Exchange Visitor program.
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  Speaker 2: That's correct, And so the judge saying this morning, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: maybe the administration did the right thing and sent this letter,
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  Speaker 2: but there is so much uncertainty around the program. The
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  Speaker 2: fact that they did this at the eleventh hour, theoretically
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  Speaker 2: to ward off my preliminary injunction doesn't change the fact
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  Speaker 2: that there are foreign students at Harvard or who are
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  Speaker 2: about to enroll in Harvard, for whom this has caused
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  Speaker 2: all kinds of confusion. I am inclined to extend my
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  Speaker 2: temporary restraining order that I entered last week. That means
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: until and unless further notice. Harvard is in the same
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: situation with an ability to enroll foreign students, and the
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  Speaker 2: administration can't do anything about it, according to this judge.
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  Speaker 1: Now, the judge sounds like Shaye is quite concerned about
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  Speaker 1: the harm that these students may be experiencing.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: Absolutely and for her this morning, at least, according to
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  Speaker 2: our colleague Gary Grumbach, who is in federal court in
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  Speaker 2: Boston this morning. The judge's real concern was less about
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  Speaker 2: Harvard and more about these foreign students, who we know
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: from reporting, including Antonio's, are really facing sort of a
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: sophie's choice, right. They don't know where to enroll, when
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  Speaker 2: they can enroll, whether they should go back to their
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  Speaker 2: home countries and participate in higher education there. This has
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  Speaker 2: caused an endless source of confusion for foreign students at Harvard,
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  Speaker 2: and there are a considerable number of them. As the
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  Speaker 2: President himself said earlier this week, he said that there
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  Speaker 2: were thirty one percent of Harvard's students are from outside
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: the country. We understand that to be closer to twenty
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  Speaker 2: seven percent, but still that's a sizeable number of students
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  Speaker 2: enrolled at Harvard who come from countries outside the US
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  Speaker 2: and with permission to study here provided by the US government.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: And we are toll that hearing, Jess concluded, I'll let
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  Speaker 1: you read in to get a sense of what's next
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  Speaker 1: in it Antonia. Harvard says that President Trump's actions have
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: already made students afraid, afraid to attend today's commencement, their
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: own graduation so I have to wonder, even if Harvard prevails,
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  Speaker 1: is that fear factor already present there in Cambridge in
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  Speaker 1: some ways? Has the damage already been done?
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  Speaker 3: Anna, Absolutely, the fear factor is present on Cambridge and
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  Speaker 3: in Cambridge, and I think it is going to stay
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  Speaker 3: around for quite a while because no matter what happens
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  Speaker 3: in this one part of the fight, there are several
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  Speaker 3: fronts of this sort of Trump versus Harvard war, from
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  Speaker 3: additional funding cuts on their way to verbal sort of
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  Speaker 3: threats that he's made and insults that he's lodged against
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  Speaker 3: people here at the university. So the feeling is that
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  Speaker 3: if it's not this, it will always be something else
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  Speaker 3: over the course of the next three and a half years.
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  Speaker 3: To give you just a sense. While of course most
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  Speaker 3: of the people here are in a good mood, they're
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  Speaker 3: excited to celebrate, to reflect on their last several years
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  Speaker 3: here on campus, many of the international students that we've
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: spoken to this morning have told us that they cannot
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  Speaker 3: go on camera. They're afraid that the administration will see
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  Speaker 3: them on our air and perhaps snatch their visa away
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  Speaker 3: or something could happen to them. So that is a
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  Speaker 3: very real sentiment. Take a Listen to a conversation I
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  Speaker 3: had with the mom of one American graduate who works
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  Speaker 3: in a quantum physics lab with primarily international students, but.
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  Speaker 4: More generally, he's in a physics lab with a lot
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  Speaker 4: of international students, and many of them are looking elsewhere,
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  Speaker 4: either to other top schools in the US or to
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  Speaker 4: schools outside the US, and that is really sad, because
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  Speaker 4: these are the top minds who would otherwise be educated
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  Speaker 4: at Harvard.
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  Speaker 3: The challenge, though, an a is that there are international
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  Speaker 3: students who cannot return home for various reasons. There may
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  Speaker 3: be a war happening in the place that they call home,
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  Speaker 3: or they may themselves be fearful of political persecution and
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  Speaker 3: their home country. And so in addition to just figuring
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  Speaker 3: out well can I stay literally here in Cambridge, Massachusetts,
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  Speaker 3: there's concern about well what happens if I actually do
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  Speaker 3: go overseas. And then for American students, they are still
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  Speaker 3: facing the major funding cuts. So the son of the
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  Speaker 3: woman you just met there, he works in a lab
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  Speaker 3: that is in the process of losing its funding, So
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  Speaker 3: as he graduates, he's actually going to go over to
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  Speaker 3: Princeton to continue doing the kind of work that he
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  Speaker 3: does because in part that opportunity may not be here
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  Speaker 3: at Harvard. And so that's the kind of fear, the
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  Speaker 3: kind of consequence that all of this represents that people
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  Speaker 3: are going to essentially be running away from these institutions,
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  Speaker 3: and as these fights come from one university down the
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  Speaker 3: road to the next, they may abandon higher education in
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  Speaker 3: the United States as a whole. That brain drain is
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  Speaker 3: the real risk and fear here, Anna.
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  Speaker 1: Charlie, what is your reaction to what Antonia is describing there?
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  Speaker 1: Is this what Trump voters wanted?
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  Speaker 5: Well, it's what Donald Trump wants and this is what
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  Speaker 5: he's doing. And of course the fear is exactly the point.
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  Speaker 5: But to that last point, the brain drain here is
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  Speaker 5: going to be extraordinary. And look, there are a lot
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  Speaker 5: of there are a lot of ways in which higher
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  Speaker 5: education needs to be reformed. There's a lot of ways
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  Speaker 5: in which Harvard needs to be reformed. But this is
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  Speaker 5: not about reform. It is about destruction, and the loss
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  Speaker 5: of the international students is going to have reverberations throughout
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  Speaker 5: not just higher education, but throughout the economy and throughout
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  Speaker 5: the world. You know, this has really been one of
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  Speaker 5: the great investments the federal government has made in building
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  Speaker 5: up these research functions in universities like Harvard, and they
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  Speaker 5: can't necessarily be replicated, and so the damage is being
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  Speaker 5: done in the short term, but the long term damage
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  Speaker 5: is also great. And let me just one other point.
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  Speaker 5: One of the reasons why we have so many foreign
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  Speaker 5: students who are playing such a critical role in many
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  Speaker 5: of the sciences in higher education is because of me.
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  Speaker 5: And education has failed to have enough American students in
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  Speaker 5: the pipeline to do many of these specialized to go
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  Speaker 5: into these specialized fields. So the downstream effect of this
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  Speaker 5: is really great. This is a really historic act of
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  Speaker 5: self sabotage by the Trump administration.
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  Speaker 1: Congressman, you attended Harvard Law. And here's what President Trump
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  Speaker 1: has said about this university. He's called it anti semitic,
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  Speaker 1: far left, a threat to democracy, says it has crazed lunatics,
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  Speaker 1: it's a liberal mess. As a Harvard alum, is any
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  Speaker 1: of that true.
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  Speaker 6: Donald Trump has said a lot of things, and I mean, listen,
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  Speaker 6: what I would say is on a long list of
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  Speaker 6: dumb things this administration has done, this might not be
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  Speaker 6: the top one, but it's pretty darn close. Harvard just
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  Speaker 6: as Charlie said, Harvard has needs for reform, higher rate
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  Speaker 6: has needs for reform. But I'm not sure you could
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  Speaker 6: think of a better act of self soa vtage than one, yes,
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  Speaker 6: trying to gut some of the premier talent research institutions
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  Speaker 6: anywhere in the world with one act coming out of
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  Speaker 6: the White House, two at a time when we are
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  Speaker 6: in an almost existential race with some of the largest competitors,
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  Speaker 6: toughest competitors in the world, particularly coming out of China
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  Speaker 6: on AI on quantum mechanics and quantum physics, quantum computing,
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  Speaker 6: on energy and fusion, gutting these research institutions and saying
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  Speaker 6: to that talent, actually, don't come here, go to China,
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  Speaker 6: go elsewhere. And by the way, Chinese have been recruiting
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  Speaker 6: scientists and researchers from Massachusetts and from other core research
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  Speaker 6: institutions for decades now, but giving them added reason to
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  Speaker 6: go there, couldn't possibly be a dumber.
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  Speaker 7: Thing to do than to try to win an innovation
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  Speaker 7: race in the future. But it's not just obviously about Harvard, right,
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  Speaker 7: as Charlie said, It's about a higher education ecosystem. Here
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  Speaker 7: there's extraordinary research and talent at Arizona State, at University
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  Speaker 7: of Texas at Florida, and Michigan, plenty of other places,
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  Speaker 7: telling that talent that wants to come here and help
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  Speaker 7: incubate that system of innovation and research to power American
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  Speaker 7: thought and in business for next generation, telling them you're
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  Speaker 7: not welcome, We don't want you. Why would you possibly
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  Speaker 7: do that? And that's just as Tony said, that is
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  Speaker 7: the message that is being sent very clearly, not just
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  Speaker 7: to Harvard, but to every other research institution and institution
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  Speaker 7: of high larn across the country. As I said, not
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  Speaker 7: the dumbest thing, but pretty darn close.
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  Speaker 1: You know, the President has argued that the radical life
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  Speaker 1: has taken over our quote once great educational institutions. So,
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  Speaker 1: talking more broadly, not just about Harvard, members of your
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  Speaker 1: family thought radical ideologies throughout history. So what's your response
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  Speaker 1: to him in that argument.
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  Speaker 7: My namesake, his name is on the hall at Memorial
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  Speaker 7: Church because he died fighting Germans.
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  Speaker 2: Of World War Two.
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  Speaker 7: There are Harvard's students and folks and alumni have dedicated
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  Speaker 7: many of whom have dedicated their lives to upholding the
• 9:58
  Speaker 7: values and Prince Bulls and institutions that do in fact
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  Speaker 7: make America rate and have hadn't made America rate for
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  Speaker 7: a long long time. The fact that this administration chooses
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  Speaker 7: to ignore their sacrifice and their contribution. Look, that's on
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  Speaker 7: Donald Trump, that's on Marco Rubio. I guess for going
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  Speaker 7: doing the one eighty that he has done. I can't
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  Speaker 7: explain that. That's for a question for them to try
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  Speaker 7: to come to grips with. I would say, from having
• 10:23
  Speaker 7: spent years on the Harvard campus, the idea that Harvard
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  Speaker 7: Business School has become a bastion of Marxism and Communism
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  Speaker 6: Would come as a newsflash, certainly to me, and I
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  Speaker 6: think many students at Harvard Business School