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NEW REPORT, KOHBERGER WHINING BEHIND BARS, PLOTTING APPEAL? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: New reports Brian Coburger whining behind bars already as he
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: plots his appeal.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Yes, plotting his appeal.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: Now, remember the whole reason the death penalty was taken.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Off the table is so he wouldn't appeal.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: He's appealing this as Coburger's mommy issues and obsessive hand washing.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Comes to light, according to fellow.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: Inmates and tonight, does evidence indicate Coburger had actually been
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: skulking inside the student's home.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Before the night of the murders? How did he get
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: in there?
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: And we're learning did he actually befriend the pet dog?
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: Does this explain why the dog didn't bark and raising
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: an alarm that night?
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grey. This is Crime Stories. I want to
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: thank you for being with us.
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: Some of these might be familiar, so set up straight
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: when I talk to you. How is your life right
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: before you murdered my sisters? Did you prepare for the
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: crime before leaving your apartment? Please detail what you were
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: thinking and feeling at this time? Why did you choose
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: my sisters before leaving their home? Is there anything else
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: you did? How does it feel to know the only
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: thing you filed more miserably at than being a murderer?
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Is trying to be a rapper? Tonight, all h e
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: double l breaking loose.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: As we learn Brian Coburger is plotting an appeal and
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: lying in wait. Lying in wait is an aggravating circumstance
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: to seek the death penalty number one, the death penalty
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: was taken off the table in exchange for Coburger not appealing.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: If you can't wave.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: That right, he can appeal a guilty play on any
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: number of grounds.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: So that was a lie.
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: But lying in wait? Did he actually get into the
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: students home before the night of the murders?
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: What does this mean? Why do I care?
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: Because that shows it was premeditated, that he had plans
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: for a long time actually skulking around in their home
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: getting the lay of the bedrooms.
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: Listen, I think that's a legitimate point. The layout of
• 2:32
  Speaker 4: the house is unique. It was a little bit confusing.
• 2:35
  Speaker 5: Based on self records, Coberger had been around the home
• 2:38
  Speaker 5: more than twenty times at night and in the early
• 2:41
  Speaker 5: morning hours when there was no legitimate reason. During these trips,
• 2:44
  Speaker 5: Coburger is stalking, surveilling his prey, maybe even went inside
• 2:49
  Speaker 5: the residence before the night of the murders. The layout
• 2:51
  Speaker 5: of the house is unique and a little confusing. Important
• 2:55
  Speaker 5: to note Coberger was able to get in and out
• 2:57
  Speaker 5: of the house in the dark without any problems.
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: We certainly believe that those trips were involved mister Coberger
• 3:07
  Speaker 4: looking and surveilling or stalking, whatever the case may be.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: Why is he the prosecutor is telling us this now,
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: that's from our friends at forty eight hours. He should
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: have told that to a jury while he was seeking
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: the death penalty. With me an all star penelty make
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: sense of what we know right now. But first I
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: want to go straight out to Chris mcdonnaugh. Chris mcdonna,
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  Speaker 2: director Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective, has worked over
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: three hundred homicides. You can find him online on the
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: interview room on YouTube. That's where I found him. Chris,
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: you and I have scoured the crime scene as much
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: as we possibly could. I want to break down what
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: the prosecutor that dumped out of the death penalty is
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: now saying. It would have been great in an opening statement, right,
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: but that didn't happen. He's saying that there is evidence
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: that Brian Coburger went inside the murder scene the home.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: Before the night of the murders.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: To get delay of the home, explain to our viewers
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  Speaker 2: and listeners.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: How the house kind of looks.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: Like I'm gonna Cheryl maccomy join in in just a moment.
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  Speaker 2: The house looks like there may have been add ons.
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  Speaker 2: Like there's a front door. Can we see a picture
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  Speaker 2: of the King Road to dress please. There's a front
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  Speaker 2: door which kind of looks like an add on. But
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: then if you turn it around to what we showed
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  Speaker 2: to start with, you see another ad on right there.
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  Speaker 2: A lot of the students came in and out of
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  Speaker 2: that sliding glass door, and it's jigsawed in a way.
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  Speaker 2: It's like a pig path, it's not You walk in
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  Speaker 2: the front door and you have an entrance area and
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  Speaker 2: a living room and to the right of the kitchen
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  Speaker 2: and to the left is the bedrooms.
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  Speaker 1: No, no, no. Explain why they now believe.
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  Speaker 2: Chris McDonough that Coburger had gone in the home prior.
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  Speaker 1: To the night of the murders.
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  Speaker 6: So the prosecutor in this case, Nancy Thompson, is saying
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  Speaker 6: that there was a belief at the time during the
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  Speaker 6: investigation that this house had to have some type of
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  Speaker 6: surveillance and or familiarity to Coburger. They're referencing the twenty
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  Speaker 6: three times that they had the phone pings. But the
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  Speaker 6: layout of this house of you, as you have just explained,
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  Speaker 6: it's a three tier level type of environment. And if
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  Speaker 6: you were to hang out in the back of that
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  Speaker 6: house as you and I have stood, and look directly
• 5:42
  Speaker 6: into that house, it is a direct shot into Maddie's room.
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  Speaker 6: And if you go down a small embankment, it's a
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  Speaker 6: direct shot into Dylan's room. So you had to have
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  Speaker 6: at some point get into that environment to know directly
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  Speaker 6: where to go.
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  Speaker 7: I e.
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  Speaker 6: The third floor up into Maddie's room.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: Hey, doctor Bethany Marshall joining us. Hold on, Cheryl, I'm
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: getting right to you. But doctor Bethany Marshall just had
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: a thought. Bethany Round, psychoanalyst out of the LA jurisdiction,
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  Speaker 2: author of deal Breaker. You can see her now on
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: Peacock and you can find her at doctor Bethany Marshall
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: dot com.
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  Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany. Sometimes at night when you get up, like
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: you hear something, or you go to the bathroom or
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: let the dog out, something like that, you know your
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: way around in the dark. You don't have to see
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: because you know the layout. Explain it.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: How does that work? Is at muscle memory? Because that's
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: what investigators now they're telling us again, should have told
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: it to a jury when they were seeking the death penalty,
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  Speaker 2: that there was so much premeditation. They believe Coburger actually
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: went in to the king wrote address and looked around,
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: sculped around, and got the lay of the land.
• 6:53
  Speaker 8: Nancy, it's more than muscle memory. Have you ever gotten
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  Speaker 8: up in the middle of the night and the night
• 6:57
  Speaker 8: light went out and you bump into the wall by mistake?
• 6:59
  Speaker 8: You know, all of it, make mistakes, even if we
• 7:01
  Speaker 8: lived in our house for decades. This guy was preoccupied.
• 7:04
  Speaker 8: He probably practiced with his eyes closed.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: Dancy.
• 7:08
  Speaker 8: This was a sexually motivated crime. So let's think about
• 7:11
  Speaker 8: all of that skulking around as four play. He had
• 7:14
  Speaker 8: a rich fantasy life. He was thinking about what he
• 7:17
  Speaker 8: was going to do.
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  Speaker 1: He was a crime student.
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  Speaker 8: He already knew that dogs are territorial and that the
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  Speaker 8: dog would bark. This guy practiced, That's what I'm hearing.
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  Speaker 8: It's more than muscle memory. It's so so creepy and
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  Speaker 8: disturbing to know that they were sleeping with that man
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  Speaker 8: in their house.
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  Speaker 2: You just proved the axiom. Never asked the question. You
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: don't know the answer to. You don't know what the
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: witness is going to say. You just said that him's
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: skulking around the home and stalking it up to twenty
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  Speaker 2: three times. I believe more was four play to him,
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to go out on a limb again and
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  Speaker 2: do it again. Why are you saying that s Coberger's foreplay?
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  Speaker 8: Well, because the mo of a serial killer is to
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  Speaker 8: inflict maximum damage and cruelty, shed as much blood as possible,
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  Speaker 8: see the fear in the victim's eyes, because they find
• 8:16
  Speaker 8: it sexually arousing. So what he's doing is skulking around
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  Speaker 8: thinking about how he's going to kill. I think in
• 8:24
  Speaker 8: his mind six people, and there were only four that
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  Speaker 8: he was able to do before he got out of
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  Speaker 8: the house. But so he's already planning what to him
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  Speaker 8: will be a very sexually exciting event. That's why I
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  Speaker 8: call it for.
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  Speaker 2: Play, Okay, Cheryl McCollum, I'm not going to ask you
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  Speaker 2: about casing the scene equals four play. I'm going on
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  Speaker 2: leave that to Dr Bethany Marshall. Cheryl McCollum is joining us.
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: She's the founder director of the Cold Case Research Institute.
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: She is a forensics.
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: Expert, and she's the star of a hit podcast, Zone seven.
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  Speaker 2: Cheryl McCollum, can you explain why the theory, the working
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  Speaker 2: theory is Coburger was in that home before and again?
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  Speaker 1: Why do I care?
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to get debate tuned up on this because
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  Speaker 2: it shows lying in weight, which is one of the
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  Speaker 2: aggravating circumstances to seek the death penalty, such as mask.
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  Speaker 1: Murder, which is more than one body, that's mass murder,
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  Speaker 1: very often, felony murder such.
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  Speaker 2: As you commit a crime in the commission of a rape,
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: you're committing a felony, and you commit a murder, a
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  Speaker 2: murder in the middle of a felony, shooting a police
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  Speaker 2: officer or an elected official, killing somebody behind bars, all
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  Speaker 2: of those are aggravating circumstances under which you seek the
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  Speaker 2: death penalty. Killing for a pecuniary or money interest aggravating
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  Speaker 2: circumstance under which you can seek the death penalty. Lying
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  Speaker 2: in wait is a prime candidate as an ag circumstance
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  Speaker 2: for the dp Okay, if he went in that home.
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  Speaker 1: Ryl that is and wait, planning, Why do you believe, Cheryl,
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  Speaker 1: as I now do, he was in that home before
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  Speaker 1: the murders.
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  Speaker 7: There's three things that stuck out to me that weren't
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  Speaker 7: a deterrent for him. Number One, the dog. He wasn't
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  Speaker 7: worried about that dog marking or attacking him or anything else.
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  Speaker 7: He wasn't worried that there was another man in that house,
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  Speaker 7: not a deterrent. And the third thing the brand new car.
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  Speaker 1: There was a.
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  Speaker 7: Car that was brand new that wasn't there in the past.
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  Speaker 7: He was not deterred that there was somebody in that house.
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  Speaker 7: He didn't know when he entered. He went straight to
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  Speaker 7: his target, which was the third floor.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, wait a minute, Wait a minute, Cheryl McCollum, that's
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: a really good point. And I guess we all knew that,
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  Speaker 2: but when you enunciated it, it makes so.
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  Speaker 1: Much more sense. You walk into this home which does
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: not have a.
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  Speaker 2: Clear path like I was describing earlier, like in modern
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: modern layouts, why would you know to walk in and
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: go straight up to the third floor and how to
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  Speaker 2: get there?
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  Speaker 1: Because from what I can tell.
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  Speaker 2: And there's any three day rendition of this, as they
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  Speaker 2: tore the house down. They had to get a three
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: day rendition and it kind of takes you in and through.
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  Speaker 2: This would have been used at trial if the DA
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  Speaker 2: had the backbone to try the case. See that it's
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  Speaker 2: very circuitous. How would you know to go in and
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  Speaker 2: how to get straight up to the third floor unless
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  Speaker 2: you had been there before.
• 11:29
  Speaker 9: And speaking of the dog, listen Keeley's dog, Murphy started
• 11:35
  Speaker 9: acting strange in the months leading up to Keiley's murderer.
• 11:38
  Speaker 9: Surviving roommate Bethany Funk and Keeley's ex boyfriend told similar
• 11:42
  Speaker 9: stories to police about Keylee's seeing a shadowy figure behind
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  Speaker 9: the house when she walked Murphy. Murphy started running away
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  Speaker 9: from home and acting strange.
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  Speaker 1: Murphy ran up to.
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  Speaker 9: The bushes behind the house and would not return when called.
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  Speaker 9: Some speculate Coberger was secretly befriending Murphy so he would
• 12:00
  Speaker 9: not bark when he entered the home to kill.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, Cheryl McCollum, If that doesn't run a chill down
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  Speaker 2: your spine, I don't know what will. Because the girls
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  Speaker 2: have stated the survivors that there were several occasions when
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  Speaker 2: they would go outside and Murphy the dog would go
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: up to the tree line. Hey, can we see that
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  Speaker 2: photo again in your control room, that the dog would
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: go up to the shree line, to the edge of
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  Speaker 2: the tree line and bark furiously, so Cheryl McCollum. It's
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: even been speculated that he was there stalking them, steering
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: into the home with those freaky eyes that we saw
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  Speaker 2: at sentencing, looking at the girls, looking at the layout
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  Speaker 2: of the home, and Murphy hit on him. Some people
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: even think giving the dog treats to befriend the dog.
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  Speaker 1: Can you imagine the girls.
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  Speaker 2: They're in the light, as we're saying, right there, that's
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: a perfect picture for it. They're in the light, they
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: can't see in the dark, and Coburger's standing out there.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: On one of those at least twenty three trips to
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: the murder scene, the girls come out, they can't see
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: in the tree line, but the dog can smell Coburger.
• 13:19
  Speaker 7: She's sawing.
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  Speaker 10: She told her boyfriend, she told her roommates, she told
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  Speaker 10: her parents.
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  Speaker 7: This was not a one time event. And I believe
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  Speaker 7: not only did he drive around in stalk, I think
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  Speaker 7: he parked where you told us you could see into
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  Speaker 7: the house, so well, all he had to do was
• 13:38
  Speaker 7: wait for her to walk the dog go inside, what
• 13:41
  Speaker 7: bedroom light does she turn on? He knew exactly what
• 13:44
  Speaker 7: room to go to, even without entering the home. He
• 13:49
  Speaker 7: was well prepared. He had planned, he had stalked, he
• 13:54
  Speaker 7: had researched, He was ready.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: Susan Hendrix. Cheryl McCollum is absolutely right.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: On some occasions, we learned that they couldn't see anything
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: in the tree line. They didn't understand why the dog
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: was barking at the trees on those specific occasions when
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: he didn't do it on other occasions.
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: But Sheryl's right.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: There was an occasion, guys, Susan Hendrix, investigative journalist, reporter,
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  Speaker 2: author of Down the Heel My Descent to the Double
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: Murder in Del Fi, who was at the Coburger Senate, saying, Susan,
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  Speaker 2: one of the girls, at least one of them, did
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: see a shadowy figure in the tree line. They saw
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: a guy standing in the tree line.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: Come on, please, does two and two still equal four?
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: I'm asking you that Susan not debate, because who else
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: would it be. They saw a guy stalking them from
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: the tree line, and they told people about it.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 14:50
  Speaker 11: Kelly told Bethany and in the beginning of the investigation,
• 14:53
  Speaker 11: we heard whispers about Kelly having a stalker, and I
• 14:58
  Speaker 11: believe that this was so planned co worker, that he
• 15:01
  Speaker 11: may even had dog treats to give the dog. I'm
• 15:06
  Speaker 11: thinking so I believe he stalked at home, and as
• 15:08
  Speaker 11: you said, knew exactly where to walk, but twenty plus times,
• 15:11
  Speaker 11: and you're right, I think even more. But think about
• 15:14
  Speaker 11: it going there, maybe with dog treats. And he looked
• 15:16
  Speaker 11: at that, I think as an obstacle. Okay, how do
• 15:19
  Speaker 11: I get in here? I have to befriend the dog.
• 15:22
  Speaker 11: And I think he did just that, and Kelly was afraid.
• 15:25
  Speaker 11: One night she was on the phone with her roommates
• 15:26
  Speaker 11: and said, can you come home? I saw some guy
• 15:29
  Speaker 11: staring at me. I believe it was Coburger.
• 15:33
  Speaker 12: Of the emergency. You don't know what the emergency. What
• 15:49
  Speaker 12: is the rest of the address. Oh okay, and there's
• 15:55
  Speaker 12: a house and apartment. Can you repeat theadres to make
• 16:00
  Speaker 12: that I have it right.
• 16:02
  Speaker 7: I'll talk to you guys. We're we live a Delights,
• 16:05
  Speaker 7: so we're next to them.
• 16:07
  Speaker 12: I need someone to repeat the aadress for raification.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: The address one one to two kingdoms? Why was there
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: a deal?
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: How did Brian Coburger escape the death penalty. As late
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: as last night, victim's family texting me stating, we're hearing
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: he doesn't even believe in the death penalty. Could that
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: be true? Do the constituentsy know that? And also one
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: of the keystones of the deal a deal for Coburger
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: wasn't a deal for the victims, was that he wouldn't appeal.
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: Listen, it was our conclusion that straight up guilty, please
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: as charged, waiver of appeal for closures so we have
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: accountability and closure with fixed life sentences was the best course.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: The best course, you mean, the easiest course for you.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: That was the district attorney that did not take this
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: case to trial to find out the truth. We're giving
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: the truth in little drips and dribbles, like the fact
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: that Coburger may have been in the home stalking it
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: before the murders. Inside the girls' homes. How many times
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: do you think he went in there? Did he go
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: through their underwear drawer, did he smell their perfume? Did
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: he sit on their bed and have fantasies? You were
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: just hearing the prosecutor on our friend's show forty eight hours.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: But all that is a bill of goods. He can appeal.
• 17:43
  Speaker 5: Listen, when Brian Coberger took the plea deal that saved
• 17:46
  Speaker 5: his life, he also agreed to not appeal the decision
• 17:49
  Speaker 5: in the future, waving his right to appeal. However, defendants
• 17:53
  Speaker 5: still have the right to post conviction relief even if
• 17:56
  Speaker 5: they waived their right to a bial issues like ineffective
• 17:59
  Speaker 5: assistance council, a discovery violation, prosecutorial misconduct, or that he
• 18:04
  Speaker 5: was pressured into taking the deal.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: Wellus honally.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: The lawyer joining me tonight, Philip Debay, high profile lawyer
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: joining us out of LA has tried a lot of
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: felony cases. Philip Debay to suggest that Brian Coburger will
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: not appeal, that's not true. He absolutely can appeal. Look
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: at Scott Peterson. How many times.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: Has this guy appealed.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: It's over and over and over, and he keeps finding
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: a habeast, then a post conviction relief.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: It just goes on and on and on.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: There's nothing stopping Coburger from appealing.
• 18:40
  Speaker 13: Debate.
• 18:41
  Speaker 14: Yeah, and that's what the US Supreme Court said, which
• 18:43
  Speaker 14: is why I don't understand why people throw in that
• 18:47
  Speaker 14: condition of the plea. Why would you condition a plea
• 18:51
  Speaker 14: upon waiving all your repellent rights. When the US Supreme
• 18:53
  Speaker 14: Court chimed in back in twenty nineteen.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: In Garza versus Idaho.
• 18:58
  Speaker 14: Ironically, a plea agreement is basically a contract, and that
• 19:03
  Speaker 14: you cannot contemplate at the time of the plea. All
• 19:07
  Speaker 14: constitutional issues, particularly unique to a specific defendant, to rise
• 19:14
  Speaker 14: to the level of a knowing, intelligent, and voluntary waiver
• 19:17
  Speaker 14: of those rights. But my response to all that.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: Is let him I disagree, and I'll tell you why,
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: because certain evidentiary issues only arise after the conviction or
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: the plea. For instance, just off the top of my head,
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: let's go with Alex Murdog, that sack of crap a
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: technical legal term. Alex Murdog absolutely murdered his wife, Maggie
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: and his son Paul, his own son. Why over all
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: of his millions and millions of dollars of embezzlement from
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: his clients, one of them a quadriplegic, and it was
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: all going to come out in Maggie's divorce, Okay, alternative murder,
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: double murder. Only after after the conviction did the clerk
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: of the courts publish a book. And it was then
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: a juror said, Oh, she tried to get me to
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: play guilty.
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: Is that true? Don't know, but those are the claims.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: So there's no way under our jurisprudence that you can
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: sign off to issues that you'll never appeal, that you
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: don't even know about. Impossible. There's no way that Coburger
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: is not plotting an appeal. No way. Crime stories with
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: Nancy Grace, p c R. Post conviction relief Lady. Justice
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: doesn't always care if you had a jury trial or
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: you play guilty.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: If there is a.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: Perceived misdoing, there will be a remedy under the law.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: Come on, debate.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: Everybody appeals, much less somebody that just got moved to solitary.
• 21:16
  Speaker 14: Right course, Well, the distinction between Garza and Coburger is
• 21:21
  Speaker 14: in Garza, what happened was he kept telling his lawyer,
• 21:24
  Speaker 14: I want to appeal, and council let the deadline to
• 21:28
  Speaker 14: file just sort of lapse. And what the High Court
• 21:31
  Speaker 14: said is no, you are presumptively ineffective under the six
• 21:35
  Speaker 14: and fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution if you fail to
• 21:39
  Speaker 14: timely appeal as asked by your client. So let's just
• 21:43
  Speaker 14: pretend hypothetically that he would have timely appealed. Then what
• 21:47
  Speaker 14: the court would do is go back, look at the
• 21:49
  Speaker 14: waiver form, look at the transcript of the plea to
• 21:52
  Speaker 14: determine if his flea was given knowingly, intelligently and voluntarily.
• 21:58
  Speaker 14: So again my response is let him because by all accounts,
• 22:02
  Speaker 14: when you look at the plane language of that transcript,
• 22:05
  Speaker 14: he answered every question. He didn't hesitate, he didn't stumble,
• 22:10
  Speaker 14: he didn't stammer. He answered coherently, pithy, terse and.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: Cojently straight out to Susan Hendrix joining us investigative journalists
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: there at the sentencing. Part of the deal that the
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: DA sold everybody is that there would be no appeal,
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: that somehow this would be the end of it all.
• 22:32
  Speaker 11: That's not true, Nancy, And that is where the frustration was.
• 22:35
  Speaker 11: And I even saw it during the victim impact statements
• 22:38
  Speaker 11: and sentencing hearing. I looked over Steve Gongalvez, Kelly's father,
• 22:43
  Speaker 11: when the prosecutor got up and said almost making excuses
• 22:48
  Speaker 11: as to why the plea deal happened. I even wrote
• 22:51
  Speaker 11: in my notes, not the place or time, But I
• 22:53
  Speaker 11: looked over and I see Steve shaking his head. That
• 22:56
  Speaker 11: family is still upset that there was a plea dealing
• 23:00
  Speaker 11: deep down what he had done to their daughter, stabbed
• 23:03
  Speaker 11: thirty four times, Kaylee. They wanted justice, they wanted the
• 23:08
  Speaker 11: death penalty, and that was cut off from them too.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: Doctor Kindall Crowns joining us renow medical examiner out of
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: Terent County, that's Fort Worth, Texas. He is a star
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: of a brand new podcast, Mayhem and the Morgue. He
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: is esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: Doctor Kendall Crowns explain the facial wounds.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: That Kiley Gonsolve suffered.
• 23:38
  Speaker 15: Certainly so, she has what is described as facial mutilation
• 23:42
  Speaker 15: to the eyes and nose. And what can be seen
• 23:45
  Speaker 15: is when someone is stabbing an individual with a heavy
• 23:49
  Speaker 15: knife is what was supposed to be used. They can
• 23:52
  Speaker 15: plunge the knife into the facial bones and into the
• 23:54
  Speaker 15: eyes and into the kind of thinner bones of the
• 23:57
  Speaker 15: face and crush those bones while they're stabbing into the face.
• 24:02
  Speaker 15: It takes a large amount of force, but from the descriptions,
• 24:05
  Speaker 15: it sounds like there's a very bit of cast off
• 24:08
  Speaker 15: all over the place that he's probably really pounding on
• 24:11
  Speaker 15: her head with the knife in place causing the sharp
• 24:14
  Speaker 15: force injuries, and then there's also a description of blood
• 24:18
  Speaker 15: force injuries which to be caused by a blunt object
• 24:21
  Speaker 15: that they haven't found yet. It could be caused from
• 24:23
  Speaker 15: the handle of the knife as well another object at
• 24:27
  Speaker 15: the scene that hasn't been found that could have been
• 24:30
  Speaker 15: used to crush her face and pound in her face
• 24:33
  Speaker 15: and break her skull.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: And Mattie Mogan's attack was brutal. I think she sustained
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: even more stab wounds than Kelly did, although Kelly's were
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: in the face. What about Mattie's attack, Doctor crowns.
• 24:51
  Speaker 15: So Mattie has multiple in sized and stab wounds, plus
• 24:57
  Speaker 15: penetrating injuries of the lungs and liver. She would have
• 25:00
  Speaker 15: had to have had multiple stab wounds that go into
• 25:03
  Speaker 15: her chest cavity, into her abdominal cavity. Probably she's laying
• 25:06
  Speaker 15: in her bed and being stabbed brutally in the chest
• 25:09
  Speaker 15: and abdomen. And then she has what are called in
• 25:13
  Speaker 15: size wounds, which are longer wounds than they are deep,
• 25:16
  Speaker 15: which can be from the knife being drawn across her
• 25:18
  Speaker 15: body causing these large, gaping wounds as well.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum joining us who investigated this case herself, and
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: after you hear those injuries and about Ethan being slashed
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: across his jugular with arterial bleeding, shooting up to the
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: ceiling and all over the room.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: We took a deal because he wouldn't appeal, and now
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: he can.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: Appeal, Cheryl McCollum. A deal for who.
• 25:52
  Speaker 10: If you were ever going to use the death penalty,
• 25:56
  Speaker 10: it's in this case. You have four young people completely innocent,
• 26:02
  Speaker 10: had harmed. No one was not involved in anything illegal.
• 26:07
  Speaker 10: They were in their home, in their beds, and Nancy,
• 26:14
  Speaker 10: when you describe the injuries, this was not some.
• 26:19
  Speaker 7: Real quick from a distance, This was a very violent,
• 26:24
  Speaker 7: long scene. This was not quick. He took time with
• 26:30
  Speaker 7: every single victim to ensure that he had killed them.
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: She's not.
• 26:56
  Speaker 12: Okay, one woman, I'm going to help her going.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: If the world had known the horrific injuries, Killy Glensavas's
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: face stabbed so many times, she is disfigured and beyond identification.
• 27:22
  Speaker 11: Matty Mugen leans to the face Xana Kernodle more than
• 27:26
  Speaker 11: fifty stab wounds, fifty It's unbelievable.
• 27:29
  Speaker 15: He brutalized each and every one.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: Of them, and tonight while Coburger is gnashing his teeth
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: and twisting his tail, plotting his appeal that he swore
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: he wouldn't launch. We're also learning about his obsessive hand
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: washing behind bars, and that Coburger has a mummy issue.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: Let's start with the hand washing obsession.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: Listen.
• 27:54
  Speaker 9: Ryan Coberger's hygiene habits reportedly irked other inmates at the
• 27:58
  Speaker 9: Leita County Jail. They say Coburger washed his hands dozens
• 28:02
  Speaker 9: of times every day, and the only thing longer than
• 28:05
  Speaker 9: his showers were his phone calls to his mother. While
• 28:08
  Speaker 9: Coburger was seen wearing gloves in public and to throw
• 28:11
  Speaker 9: away his trash in the weeks after the murders. It's
• 28:14
  Speaker 9: unclear if the convicted quadruple killer is still concerned about
• 28:18
  Speaker 9: leaving DNA or is a certified germophobe with that in mind.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: Two, Doctor Bethany Marshall, that's quite the dichotomy, is it not.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: Because this crime scene was so horrific. The students were slaughtered.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: They were slaughtered. It was horrible. It's unlike anything you
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: see on TV or movies. Its smells, it's grimy, it's horrible.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: The victims are lying there, they have been dead for hours.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: Bleeding out, but yet the killer obsessively washes his hands.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: Explain the dichotomy.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: How can that be that the says of hand washer
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: left such a horrific crime, saying, well, you see the.
• 29:04
  Speaker 8: Thumbs up photo where he's in front of the shower curtain.
• 29:07
  Speaker 8: It's like he was in a hurry to clean everything off,
• 29:09
  Speaker 8: as well as his hands. You know, Nancy, he could
• 29:12
  Speaker 8: have OCD, which is obsessive compulsive disorder, and in that case,
• 29:16
  Speaker 8: the person has an intrusive thought that they can only.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: Neutralize by an act.
• 29:20
  Speaker 8: So the thought could be I'm in prison, I'm in
• 29:23
  Speaker 8: a cage full of feces. It's very dirty here. That's
• 29:27
  Speaker 8: the intrusive thought. The action is I'm going to take long,
• 29:30
  Speaker 8: long showers and wash my hands as much as possible
• 29:33
  Speaker 8: to get off all these germs. So think about the
• 29:36
  Speaker 8: type of punishment this is for him. I'm not as
• 29:39
  Speaker 8: upset by the death sentence or the lack of the
• 29:41
  Speaker 8: death sentence immediately, because I think it's sort of just
• 29:45
  Speaker 8: tos served to put somebody with OCD in a very
• 29:50
  Speaker 8: filthy prison with feces all around, where their brain is
• 29:54
  Speaker 8: just going to fire and fire and fire and tell
• 29:57
  Speaker 8: them that there are germs all over him. Seems to
• 30:00
  Speaker 8: be like justice served.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: Okay, well you know what, Cheryl McCollum, could you please
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: respond to Dr Bethany that it's worse to be behind
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: bars without pure l than it is to get the
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: death penalty.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: How wrong that is? Hit it.
• 30:17
  Speaker 7: If we are going to go by an eye for
• 30:20
  Speaker 7: an eye, he does not deserve to take another breath.
• 30:24
  Speaker 9: Period.
• 30:25
  Speaker 7: He took something from these families and their friends that
• 30:30
  Speaker 7: cannot be replaced. And I'll tell you something. It can't
• 30:32
  Speaker 7: even be an eye for an eye. It's not equal here.
• 30:36
  Speaker 7: These children were loved, they were smart, they were beautiful,
• 30:39
  Speaker 7: they were just about to take off and be whoever
• 30:43
  Speaker 7: they were destined to be. And he stole that. He
• 30:47
  Speaker 7: stole graduations, he stole jobs, he stole future marriages, he
• 30:51
  Speaker 7: stole future children. He deserves the ultimate punishment.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: Chris McDonald, I didn't know where she was going on
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: this as well. The skulking in the home equals sexual foreplay.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: I got that bomb dropped onmmy. Now, doctor Bethany is
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: saying that for Coburger, being behind bars with that purel
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: is worse than the death penalty. Could you please respond
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: to her.
• 31:18
  Speaker 6: You know, so, let's put ourselves into that room just
• 31:21
  Speaker 6: for a moment. The very first thing you will recognize
• 31:25
  Speaker 6: immediately is the silence in that room. The second thing
• 31:30
  Speaker 6: you will recognize is the cast off and the amount
• 31:34
  Speaker 6: of rage and horror that took place. The third thing
• 31:39
  Speaker 6: you will recognize is imagining this person who's caused playing
• 31:45
  Speaker 6: Ted Bundy Hey in the backyard, and then he's in
• 31:51
  Speaker 6: your room almost immediately as the helper to brutally kill you.
• 31:59
  Speaker 6: This is what these victims saw, specifically Kaylee and Maddie.
• 32:05
  Speaker 6: They experienced it first. It's horrific.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, you know. To doctor Bethony Marshall,
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking through all of his amenities at his new digs,
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: there's really nothing stopping him. Since he's got use of
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: a tablet, he has cable, he has money to fund
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: his iPad.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: I don't think anything is.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: Precluding him from ordering Netflix or Prime or Showtime or
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: anything else. When he's tired of reliving the murders, he.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: Can just hop on to one of the pay channels.
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, this is wrong, No wonder the Gonsalvast family
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: was so angry about the deal.
• 33:00
  Speaker 8: And you know what else he's going to have access to, Nancy,
• 33:03
  Speaker 8: psychotropic medication. And what that means is that not only
• 33:07
  Speaker 8: will he get tired of his fantasies, but then he'll
• 33:09
  Speaker 8: have pay television, the iPad, whatever else he wants, Nancy,
• 33:14
  Speaker 8: is that there will be expert psychiatric care. Because OCD
• 33:18
  Speaker 8: is very biologically motivated. So all those scary thoughts, anxious thoughts,
• 33:22
  Speaker 8: they're going to calm down and he's going to be
• 33:25
  Speaker 8: in better shape that he's been in a long long time.
• 33:28
  Speaker 8: And let's say he's watching next Fit, Netflix or pay
• 33:31
  Speaker 8: per view television. Even just looking at a woman is
• 33:35
  Speaker 8: going to get him excited. He can make mountains out
• 33:38
  Speaker 8: of a molehill, Nancy. So this is all kinds of
• 33:41
  Speaker 8: material that somebody who is a sexual sadist should not
• 33:46
  Speaker 8: have access to.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: We are also learning about Ryan Coberger's mommy issues.
• 33:52
  Speaker 5: Listen, Goberger lost his temper at another inmate who he
• 33:55
  Speaker 5: believed was insulting his mother. According to a police report
• 33:59
  Speaker 5: detailing in counts, Coberger was on a video call with
• 34:02
  Speaker 5: his mother when a fellow in May yelled, you suck
• 34:05
  Speaker 5: at a television screen while watching sports. Coberger assuming the
• 34:08
  Speaker 5: insult was directed at him or his mother aggressively approached
• 34:12
  Speaker 5: to the inmate and question if the comments were aimed
• 34:15
  Speaker 5: at them. The situation was resolved quickly after the two
• 34:17
  Speaker 5: inmates discussed the misunderstanding.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: So Coberger has a physical altercation with another inmate on
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: the misperception. The inmate commented about his mother, Okay, mommy
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: issues out the ying yang Bethany.
• 34:33
  Speaker 8: You know, I think what's interesting about murderers is that
• 34:37
  Speaker 8: they often see their mothers as pristine, as a source
• 34:41
  Speaker 8: of comfort.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: You know, when.
• 34:42
  Speaker 8: Inmates escape from jail, as you once said, where do
• 34:46
  Speaker 8: you find them? Hiding in mommy's house? That's always where
• 34:49
  Speaker 8: they go.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: And I think it's.
• 34:50
  Speaker 8: Because that early, early attachment makes them believe that that
• 34:55
  Speaker 8: person will never ever turn away from them, that there
• 34:57
  Speaker 8: will always be comfort and care. But you know what,
• 35:00
  Speaker 8: it's not always true, Nancy. Sometimes these mothers, just like
• 35:04
  Speaker 8: Casey Anthony's mom, they're onto their child after a while
• 35:08
  Speaker 8: and that comfort and care is withdrawn.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: And that may just happen to Brian Coberger. He was
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: on a faceheime rzi with his mother. If he can
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: do that, what's next?
• 35:19
  Speaker 8: OnlyFans if he has access to his mother Nancy, he
• 35:24
  Speaker 8: can gain access to whatever he wants.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: And we know that men.
• 35:28
  Speaker 8: Who think like this need very little material to spark
• 35:34
  Speaker 8: their sexual fantasies. That's what I am worried about. And
• 35:37
  Speaker 8: we know that sex offenders, in particular, when they get
• 35:42
  Speaker 8: out of jail, which Brian Coberg Coworger never will, they
• 35:46
  Speaker 8: are angrier, more aroused, and more ready to offend than ever.
• 35:51
  Speaker 8: So in some ways, he's being given his own version
• 35:54
  Speaker 8: of pornography to respond to. It may not mean anything
• 35:58
  Speaker 8: to anybody else, but in his fantasy life, it will
• 36:01
  Speaker 8: mean a lot to him.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: The stabs so deep, her liver is lacerated, stabbed thirty times.
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: So many stab worms, so many stab wounds, a lacerated liver.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: Nearly every study of serial killers includes the keeping of trophies. Trophies,
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: whether it's a victim's jewelry, whether it's a driver's license,
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: whether it's underwear or a garment, a piece of clothing,
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: a photo. It's very, very In fact, it's predictable that
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: a killer keeps a trophy. Like you and I would
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: keep ticket stubs to a concert or a photo album.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: They keep memento souvenirs of their murders.
• 36:54
  Speaker 13: Listen, Coberger captain trophies from women he knew, including two
• 36:58
  Speaker 13: ID type cards belonging to women he knew years before
• 37:02
  Speaker 13: the murders. One belonged to a woman he worked with
• 37:04
  Speaker 13: at the Pleasant Valley School District when he was a
• 37:07
  Speaker 13: security guard at the school. There's no way of knowing
• 37:10
  Speaker 13: how he got the IDs, how long he had them,
• 37:12
  Speaker 13: or what he planned to do with them.
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: Chris McDonald joining me, founder director of.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: The Cole Case Foundation, and you can find him now
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: on the interview room on YouTube. Chris mcdonna very often
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: when you process a crime, saying, you see all sorts
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: of things, but you don't realize their significance. But now
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: we see that Coburger kept trophies.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: He kept these ideas of.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: Women that are alive. Thank Heaven that he knew years ago.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: Why and when you go to a crime saying, you
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: don't always realize what you've got. You don't realize that's
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: a trophy from some other incident.
• 37:53
  Speaker 6: Yeah, And when you start thinking about that at length financy,
• 37:58
  Speaker 6: you realize the the statistic fantasy that was playing out
• 38:03
  Speaker 6: here in this particular case, there are two identification cards
• 38:08
  Speaker 6: from gals that he apparently had contact with way prior
• 38:13
  Speaker 6: to the homicides. But what it does tell us is
• 38:17
  Speaker 6: it gives us an insight into his fantasy based plan
• 38:23
  Speaker 6: that the reason these individuals take those types of items
• 38:27
  Speaker 6: is to relive the events and they transfer that into
• 38:33
  Speaker 6: this sexual you know, play that they believe is going
• 38:38
  Speaker 6: on in their heads. And you know, the doc can
• 38:42
  Speaker 6: tell us a lot deeper about why that is.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: Yes, Susan Henricks, before I get a shrink in on this,
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: what do we know about the women whose IDs he had?
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: And what we're talking about? To start that Q and
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: A is when you look at his apartment, but you
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: may see trophies that you don't even realize are trophies.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: It could be.
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: A scarf, it could be a pair of socks, it
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: could be anything that reminds him of a particular woman.
• 39:17
  Speaker 16: Absolutely, and the id's that he did take. Investigators in
• 39:21
  Speaker 16: the beginning went to those women and they said, we
• 39:24
  Speaker 16: know who he is. He was never any threat. I
• 39:27
  Speaker 16: think maybe this was a drive run. How sneaky do
• 39:29
  Speaker 16: you have to be to get someone's ID? Did you
• 39:32
  Speaker 16: break into their house? Did you steal their wallet? How'd
• 39:35
  Speaker 16: you get it? He's sneaky. That tells me that he
• 39:37
  Speaker 16: was in that house, like you said earlier, during the party,
• 39:41
  Speaker 16: getting to know Kayley's doll. All of this to me said,
• 39:44
  Speaker 16: Oh he put those women's IDs?
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: How how is the question?
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: You know, it's freaky, Doctor Bethany what Susan Hendricks just
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: said about him going to the home maybe during a party,
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: maybe skulking around on his own and like sniffing their pillowcase.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: But what she said about how did he get these
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: other women's IDs? Did he pilfer through their pocketbook? Did
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: he stick his nose in their purse and smell it?
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: What else?
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: Did he take their lipstick, their perfume, their comb? But
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: just imagine Coburger going room to room when I guess
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: nobody was there, looking around, figuring out the layout, picking
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: up their items, looking at them.
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: You know, he smelled them. I don't know what were
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: just fealing If.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: He did so, I don't know what that means. I
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: just know that it happens. You can explain what it
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: all means.
• 40:44
  Speaker 8: Well, of course, smelling the underwear and putting on the
• 40:46
  Speaker 8: lipstick like b t K Killer. Remember he dressed himself
• 40:50
  Speaker 8: up in women's stockings, and clothing. It's like inhabiting the
• 40:53
  Speaker 8: victim in fantasy, having sex with the victim, gaining proximity
• 40:57
  Speaker 8: to the victim, Nancy. We would all be naive to
• 41:00
  Speaker 8: think that the murder victims are the only people he stalked.
• 41:04
  Speaker 8: That's one thing. But I think what's fascinating is the
• 41:07
  Speaker 8: ID cards as opposed to women's underwear, because what that
• 41:11
  Speaker 8: tells me is you cannot pursue or identify somebody through
• 41:16
  Speaker 8: their underwear. There's no social Security number on it, there's
• 41:18
  Speaker 8: no telephone number or address. But once you have someone's ID,
• 41:23
  Speaker 8: you can track them, Nancy. So this is akin to
• 41:27
  Speaker 8: like somebody's book reading list. You know, it's the next
• 41:30
  Speaker 8: book he's going to check out at the library. Or
• 41:32
  Speaker 8: with some of my patients who are sex addicts, they're
• 41:34
  Speaker 8: porn cash on their computers. It's the next video they're
• 41:38
  Speaker 8: going to look at. So this tells me that sniffying
• 41:41
  Speaker 8: women's underwear was simply not enough. He had graduated. He
• 41:46
  Speaker 8: was graduating to collecting IDs to id future victims.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: You know another thing about did you get into the home?
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: How did he get those IDs from the other women?
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: What other trophies are in his apartment that we don't
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: even know, we can't identify that they are trophies. But
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: he got those.
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: IDs from those women, and they don't know how he
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: got them. And it's leading me back to another intrusion,
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: and that Susan Hendrix is from a female colleague he
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: had where he offered to help her.
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: Those words echo in my mind because he said that
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: to one of the murder victims. I'm here to help you.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: He offered to help the female colleague set up her
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: WiFi in her home, but he set it up so
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: he could spy on her in all the rooms in
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: her home, watching her watch TV, changing clothes in her bedroom,
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: walking naked into her kitchen to turn on the coffee pot.
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: He helped her too, didn't he.
• 42:45
  Speaker 16: Yeah, And she felt uneasy. She felt like someone was
• 42:48
  Speaker 16: watching her or following her. So she went to Coburger, thinking, Hey,
• 42:52
  Speaker 16: the man he can help you set it up, when
• 42:54
  Speaker 16: it was actually I believed him making her feel uncomfortable
• 42:58
  Speaker 16: and he's the guy that's going to show which means
• 43:01
  Speaker 16: more access to this woman. You're absolutely right when saying
• 43:05
  Speaker 16: no way, are the women in that home who are
• 43:09
  Speaker 16: really murdered by this manner? The first women that he
• 43:12
  Speaker 16: has stopped or followed.
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: No way, Philip Gibei. It's the same thing over and
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: over and over again. When you don't know what he's
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: going to do, look at what he's already done. Again,
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: when you don't know a horse, look at his track record.
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: We know he had these trophies from these other two women,
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: and they can't explain how he got them. Their ideas, pocketbook,
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: home workstation. Nobody knows. We know he got into his
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: female coworkers' home to help her set up her WiFi
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: and her nanny cams that she had in her home,
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: her surveillance so he could watch her.
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: He could get into her home. So what does that
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: tell me? He did get into this.
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: Home to stalk them and get the lay of the land,
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: which goes to lying in white and seeking the death penalty.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: Do you ever wish your client would surprise you?
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: But no, they do the same thing over and over
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: and over again, just like cobragrams.
• 44:10
  Speaker 14: I'm not feeling that in this case. I don't think
• 44:13
  Speaker 14: that the theft of those two ID cards was sexually
• 44:16
  Speaker 14: motivated in any way, shape or form. And I'm telling
• 44:20
  Speaker 14: you this is just based on decades of working in
• 44:22
  Speaker 14: the justice system. What I am seeing is the dawning
• 44:25
  Speaker 14: days of the gateway crime, namely petty theft, just stealing
• 44:31
  Speaker 14: two identity or ID cards as a crime of opportunity
• 44:35
  Speaker 14: that could eventually lead to bigger and greater crimes, and
• 44:39
  Speaker 14: the fact that he was able to pull it off
• 44:41
  Speaker 14: gave him a thirst to commit greater offenses. But I
• 44:44
  Speaker 14: don't think the theft of those two cards was sexually motivated.
• 44:48
  Speaker 14: Maybe at most he was going to commit identity theft
• 44:50
  Speaker 14: with them.
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: Are you a shrink? No, you're not.
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: Bethany is a shrink, all right, she's a psychoanalyst.
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: And I didn't ask you a strinth question.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: I asked you about defendants that keep doing the same
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: thing over and over and over.
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany.
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: Really two women that he works with that somehow he
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: gets in their home their workstation or their pocketbook or
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: their car, and Pilfer's around and steals IDs that he
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: keeps for years. And Dubey says, it's not sexually motivated,
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: it's about petty theft.
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, you know what, drop the mic.
• 45:31
  Speaker 8: Well, this shows me the amount of the preoccupation that
• 45:34
  Speaker 8: he has. And it's not just a preoccupation with sex
• 45:37
  Speaker 8: or stalking or anything like that. It's a preoccupation with
• 45:41
  Speaker 8: inflicting maximum harm in order to enhance sexual arousal. He
• 45:47
  Speaker 8: is a statist. He's also a voyeur because now he's
• 45:51
  Speaker 8: spying on this woman and he's stalking, because it's a
• 45:55
  Speaker 8: part of victim selection. Think about what we know about
• 45:58
  Speaker 8: serial killers. Sometimes they'll from city to city, or neighborhood
• 46:01
  Speaker 8: to neighborhood, or jump on the railway or whatever, or
• 46:05
  Speaker 8: spend a lot of time online because they're looking for
• 46:08
  Speaker 8: the perfect victim, maybe like you and I looking for
• 46:11
  Speaker 8: a Michel unrated restaurant. You know, we'll just want the
• 46:14
  Speaker 8: best meal on our vacation or something like that. So
• 46:17
  Speaker 8: these all these people, all these women were in his sights.
• 46:22
  Speaker 8: The male victim was slashed, you know, his throat was slashed,
• 46:26
  Speaker 8: but the women were stabbed repeatedly. And I had the
• 46:30
  Speaker 8: same thought doctor Kendall Crown is that he was wanting
• 46:32
  Speaker 8: to get the guy out of the way because the
• 46:34
  Speaker 8: women were his object of sexual interest.
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: Will Brian Coiberger appeal. I'll put money on it. But
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: as we wait for justice to unfold. Nancy Grace signing off,
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: goodbye friend,