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The Call of the Void: Don’t Pick Up! · Stuff You Should Know

0:01
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
0:11
Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's
0:13
Speaker 2: Chuck and Ben's here too, and that makes this a
0:16
Speaker 2: good old rousing edition of Stuff you Should Know. Philosophy
0:21
Speaker 2: Now edition.
0:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I apologize to Josh off here. I
0:26
Speaker 1: might as well say it now. I may be a
0:28
Speaker 1: little rough in this one because my brain breaks a
0:32
Speaker 1: little bit when we have these philosophy subjects. And even
0:37
Speaker 1: though I made an A and the only philosophy class
0:40
Speaker 1: I took in college, which I've said before, huh, it's
0:42
Speaker 1: only because I was so frustrated by it. I worked
0:46
Speaker 1: really really hard to try and understand it and ended
0:50
Speaker 1: up getting an A. But it breaks my brain a
0:53
Speaker 1: lot of times.
0:55
Speaker 2: Oh now, okay, boy, you didn't end that sentence under
0:59
Speaker 2: normal circumstance. No, but good for you. Power for powering
1:03
Speaker 2: through that that uh, that class and not just being like, well,
1:06
Speaker 2: I guess I'll take a zero in this one again.
1:10
Speaker 3: Or drop it in that first week. I did a
1:12
Speaker 3: lot of that.
1:12
Speaker 2: I did that once in astronomy. I was like, wait,
1:16
Speaker 2: why are you using like the Greek symbol for epsilon
1:20
Speaker 2: and sigma in this like I thought we were going
1:23
Speaker 2: to talk about Mars and stuff and no, right, I
1:25
Speaker 2: got rid of that really quick.
1:27
Speaker 3: Yeah, good, good job.
1:28
Speaker 2: All right, So I kind of I think have a
1:31
Speaker 2: bit of a grasp on the the philosophy of it.
1:34
Speaker 2: What I had trouble with with some of the studies,
1:38
Speaker 2: like the actual research on it. So we'll just muddle through.
1:40
Speaker 2: It will be fun. Sometimes those are our most enjoyable episodes.
1:43
Speaker 2: Sometimes there are worst. Let's find out which way this
1:46
Speaker 2: one goes.
1:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, what we're talking talking about is something we've talked
1:50
Speaker 1: about on the show before. I wish I could remember
1:52
Speaker 1: which episode, but we've definitely talked about the call of
1:55
Speaker 1: the void what what the French call lapel do or
2:02
Speaker 1: high place phenomenon, And that is the idea that and
2:06
Speaker 1: it's not just the desire to maybe hurl your yourself
2:11
Speaker 1: off the top of a building if you're standing, or
2:13
Speaker 1: a bridge, if you're standing atop of high structure. Yeah,
2:17
Speaker 1: that's the one we're going to concentrate on. But it
2:19
Speaker 1: can also mean and I know this is what we
2:21
Speaker 1: talked about before, because I talked about like grabbing the
2:24
Speaker 1: cops gun or driving into oncoming traffic, right that very
2:30
Speaker 1: amazing scene from Christopher Walking and Annie Hall where he's
2:35
Speaker 1: talking about, you know, swerving into oncoming traffic is so good,
2:39
Speaker 1: and they smash cut, you know, to him driving Woody
2:42
Speaker 1: and Annie home. It's just one of the great movie jokes.
2:44
Speaker 1: But you know, that's the idea, is this weird urge?
2:48
Speaker 1: I know it was an episode of Louis as well,
2:50
Speaker 1: and I'm trying to think if I could think of
2:52
Speaker 1: any more canceled filmmakers.
2:54
Speaker 2: Right exactly. He did a short on it once.
3:00
Speaker 1: You know, it was in both of those things, And yeah,
3:02
Speaker 1: it's this weird desire to be like standing at top
3:05
Speaker 1: of a tall structure and be like, I could just
3:07
Speaker 1: jump right now and see what's out there.
3:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's a I think that's the most common
3:12
Speaker 2: phenomenon of the call of the void, just it occurring
3:16
Speaker 2: to you that you could do this. It can get worse, though, too,
3:20
Speaker 2: because some people not only experience that notion occurring to them,
3:23
Speaker 2: they've experienced something akin to an urge, so much so
3:27
Speaker 2: that sometimes people will like push themselves away from the
3:30
Speaker 2: edge that they might like go back into whatever stairwell
3:33
Speaker 2: they just came out of because they don't want to
3:35
Speaker 2: accidentally or inadvertently. They don't trust themselves not to follow
3:40
Speaker 2: that urge. That's when it gets really scary. And if
3:43
Speaker 2: you think about it, we humans have a real tendency
3:46
Speaker 2: towards self preservation, like we fight to live, sometimes to
3:51
Speaker 2: degrees that surprise ourselves afterward, you know. So that makes
3:56
Speaker 2: the call of the void completely nonsensical. It makes zero
4:00
Speaker 2: sense whatsoever that you would have an urge to just
4:03
Speaker 2: end it all for no reason, just because it's there,
4:07
Speaker 2: just because there's a huge void there, jumping into it
4:10
Speaker 2: because it occurred to you. So the fact that this
4:12
Speaker 2: is a fairly common phenomenon, it bears investigating. And so
4:17
Speaker 2: psychologists have gotten into it. Philosophers have gotten into it,
4:21
Speaker 2: like you said, Woody Allen's gotten into it. It's a
4:25
Speaker 2: thing for sure. And I love the fact that it's
4:27
Speaker 2: a mystery because no one's actually successfully explained it, and
4:33
Speaker 2: I don't know if we ever will. And for my money,
4:36
Speaker 2: I don't really want to what understand it. Yes, because
4:40
Speaker 2: I throw I cast my lot with the philosophers. I
4:43
Speaker 2: think kerker Garden start nailed it, but it's still I mean,
4:48
Speaker 2: you don't prove things with philosophy it's just like, what about.
4:50
Speaker 1: This, Yeah, yeah, I mean we'll get to statistics and
4:56
Speaker 1: how they align with you know, legitimate suicidal ideation later,
5:01
Speaker 1: probably in the last part, but just among the two
5:05
Speaker 1: of us. I know, I know I said this before
5:08
Speaker 1: with when we talked about it before, but I have
5:11
Speaker 1: felt the call of the void many many times. And
5:14
Speaker 1: for me, it's not I could just end it all,
5:17
Speaker 1: but it's more like, uh, it's hard to And maybe
5:22
Speaker 1: that's one of the frustrating things. It's really hard to
5:24
Speaker 1: explain what's going through my head. It's it's sort of
5:27
Speaker 1: like no one can stop me from doing this, and
5:31
Speaker 1: I could, I could know what that feels like to fall.
5:36
Speaker 1: Part of it is I had a very tragically had
5:39
Speaker 1: a friend fall off a building to his death, and
5:42
Speaker 1: oh yeah, so there there's a little bit of that,
5:45
Speaker 1: like I would want to know what Aaron felt like
5:49
Speaker 1: and like how scary that was as a as an
5:52
Speaker 1: empathetic thing. So there's a lot of things in my head.
5:55
Speaker 1: None of that explains why I want to grab the
5:57
Speaker 1: cops because I was about to ask that I've never
6:00
Speaker 1: really felt the driving into the other lane thing, but
6:03
Speaker 1: I just I don't know, it's really fascinating to have
6:06
Speaker 1: these thoughts pop into your head when normally, you know,
6:09
Speaker 1: you're the kind of person that would never entertain anything
6:12
Speaker 1: like that.
6:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you just said a mouthful. Essentially, the call
6:15
Speaker 2: of the void can be can come from it can
6:18
Speaker 2: come out of nowhere, which makes it an intrusive thought
6:21
Speaker 2: in a lot of situations. Other Times it can be
6:24
Speaker 2: triggered by the situation, like you're not going to think
6:26
Speaker 2: about driving into oncoming traffic while you're you know, in
6:29
Speaker 2: your chemistry class, Like it's while you're driving, right, So
6:33
Speaker 2: there's some that are triggered by circumstances. And then you
6:36
Speaker 2: also said that you're like, you're basically you're horrified by
6:39
Speaker 2: the idea you're even having this thought. It's just totally out.
6:42
Speaker 3: Of character for you.
6:43
Speaker 2: So you put all that together, you have what essentially
6:46
Speaker 2: is the call of the void. And I say we
6:48
Speaker 2: go up to the tee and put the little baseball
6:51
Speaker 2: or whiffle ball on top of the tee and knock
6:54
Speaker 2: it out of the park. With the philosophers first, all.
6:58
Speaker 1: Right, I will say this that the carecer guard stuff
7:03
Speaker 1: really spoke to me me too. We're talking about Danish
7:05
Speaker 1: philosopher Surin, I guess I don't know what the null
7:09
Speaker 1: sign means.
7:10
Speaker 2: So it's like an umlaut okay, so Surin, basically, I guess.
7:16
Speaker 1: He talked about this idea that the callovoid call of
7:20
Speaker 1: the void illustrates anxiety and in his case, and this
7:25
Speaker 1: is the part that really spoke to me. He argued that,
7:27
Speaker 1: and I think he's dead right. Actually, is that fear
7:31
Speaker 1: is when outside forces are scaring you something that could
7:34
Speaker 1: harm you from the outside. Anxiety is when that's turned
7:37
Speaker 1: inward and that's emerging from your The threat is coming
7:40
Speaker 1: from within their inside the house basically, and that house
7:43
Speaker 1: is your brain. So the freedom to the freedom of
7:47
Speaker 1: choice in life to move about the world, just to
7:50
Speaker 1: choose what you do from moment to moment, you're constantly
7:52
Speaker 1: making choices without knowing necessarily what the right thing to
7:56
Speaker 1: do was. So when an anxiety can come from what
8:00
Speaker 1: he called the dizziness of freedom, of that freedom specifically.
8:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And just the basis of anxiety is having
8:06
Speaker 2: those choices, not knowing what's right, like you said, and
8:09
Speaker 2: that because our lives are filled from moment to moment
8:14
Speaker 2: with making a choice, not making a choice, which stills
8:16
Speaker 2: a choice, just as Gedty Lee that, of course it's
8:19
Speaker 2: going to create anxiety, which means anxiety is the human condition.
8:23
Speaker 2: It's almost the basis of the human condition, is what
8:25
Speaker 2: he was saying. So he kind of used that, or
8:28
Speaker 2: used the call of the void to kind of demonstrate that,
8:32
Speaker 2: essentially saying that you when you're up there on a precipice,
8:37
Speaker 2: you're aware that you have the choice to just throw
8:41
Speaker 2: yourself over, and just realizing that that is a choice
8:45
Speaker 2: of that you can make right then, like you said,
8:48
Speaker 2: no one's going to stop you having that freedom. Is
8:53
Speaker 2: it's too much we like to think that, you know,
8:56
Speaker 2: we don't have choices that we have metal, we have
9:00
Speaker 2: a self preservation drive, we have all this stuff that
9:02
Speaker 2: would prevent us from even ever considering that. And yet
9:05
Speaker 2: whenever we experience the call of the void, it is
9:07
Speaker 2: by definition experience experiencing that urge, like the realization that
9:13
Speaker 2: we can choose that. And that's what kure Kaguard kind
9:15
Speaker 2: of kicked the whole thing off with, I think in
9:17
Speaker 2: the eighteen fifties. When you use that to illustrate anxiety
9:22
Speaker 2: in humans.
9:23
Speaker 3: Can we have a quick side chat?
9:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, what do they call them?
9:27
Speaker 3: Not diversions tangents.
9:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, one of our tangents about rush Okay, did
9:35
Speaker 1: you hear me very quickly say Neil Pert, No, I didn't,
9:38
Speaker 1: you said Getty Lee. Okay, Well Neil Pert wrote that.
9:40
Speaker 1: Oh so I just quickly pointed that out. But that's
9:43
Speaker 1: not what I was trying to point out. Okay, on
9:45
Speaker 1: that record, and I remember this specifically. My brother and
9:47
Speaker 1: I were listening to and looking over that LP which
9:51
Speaker 1: you do.
9:51
Speaker 2: What is that spirit of radio?
9:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, on the record is the lyric and if you
9:58
Speaker 1: choose not to decide, Well, first of all, if you're
10:02
Speaker 1: not a rushman. The lyric that they recorded was, if
10:04
Speaker 1: you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
10:07
Speaker 2: I feel like you have to say it like Geddy
10:08
Speaker 2: Lee still out made a choice beautiful.
10:12
Speaker 1: Uh So they recorded it like that. Neil Purt was
10:16
Speaker 1: their lyricist. But on the record, my brother and I
10:19
Speaker 1: notice it says if you choose not to decide, you
10:21
Speaker 1: cannot have made a choice.
10:23
Speaker 2: Oh well, they got that wrong.
10:25
Speaker 1: They it was like on the album and he my
10:27
Speaker 1: brother looked at me and laughed and like mimicked to
10:29
Speaker 1: Gedty Lee, like crossing it out with a pencil like, well,
10:33
Speaker 1: Neil Purt wasn't looking.
10:34
Speaker 3: And that is just always stood out to me.
10:38
Speaker 2: Did Neil part write most of their lyrics or was it.
10:40
Speaker 3: Just yeah, he was their lyricists.
10:42
Speaker 2: I didn't know that. Okay, wasn't that crazy, But yeah,
10:44
Speaker 2: he got that wrong big time.
10:47
Speaker 1: Uh So back to it from Kuerker Guard, along those
10:51
Speaker 1: same lines you talked about, is it Start.
10:55
Speaker 2: That's what I've always said, Yeah, he doesn't.
10:58
Speaker 1: Jean Jean Paul SARTs another philosopher, he talked about that
11:03
Speaker 1: as the vertigo of possibility, basically the same idea as Carekerguard,
11:09
Speaker 1: of like a literal dizziness of possibilities, and he kind
11:15
Speaker 1: of leaned more into the you know, the freedom about
11:18
Speaker 1: questions of our human experience, and he went down a
11:22
Speaker 1: different road than Carekerguard ultimately did. But they both sort
11:25
Speaker 1: of referred to it as a literal dizziness.
11:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, because a lot of people do experience
11:30
Speaker 2: something akin to vertigo when they're looking down from a
11:32
Speaker 2: high place, even if they're not afraid lights.
11:34
Speaker 3: Right, Oh, I for sure do. Yeah, So it.
11:37
Speaker 2: Does make sense that they would both use that. But
11:39
Speaker 2: Start was definitely doing a big yes a and to carecreguard,
11:42
Speaker 2: and I think he even calls out Careguard in the
11:44
Speaker 2: section of being a nothingness. Right, But his whole jam
11:48
Speaker 2: that he kind of took, the point that he took
11:50
Speaker 2: it to was not only are you realizing, like you
11:53
Speaker 2: have this freedom of choice, you also realize that your
11:58
Speaker 2: future self has that same freedom of choice. And you,
12:02
Speaker 2: the one who's making this choice right now not to
12:05
Speaker 2: leap over this precipice for no good reason, has zero
12:09
Speaker 2: control over whether you in the future future you is
12:13
Speaker 2: going to make that same choice or not. And that
12:16
Speaker 2: is a reason to be terrified of being alive. Essentially,
12:19
Speaker 2: is what Sart said.
12:20
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I mean not quite multiverse stuff, but it's
12:25
Speaker 1: sort of along the same lines, like almost future future
12:29
Speaker 1: multiverse maybe.
12:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, But what he was saying also is a lot
12:32
Speaker 2: like kerky Guard, Like life is made up of choices
12:35
Speaker 2: moment to moment to moment, And his whole thing is like,
12:37
Speaker 2: there's no solid self, there's no you that exists. You know,
12:42
Speaker 2: when you're born or even after you develop a little bit,
12:45
Speaker 2: to the time you die, you are constantly you have
12:48
Speaker 2: to constantly keep the self going by making essentially the
12:52
Speaker 2: same decisions over and over again, and if you don't
12:55
Speaker 2: have the same experience, say like terror when you're up
12:59
Speaker 2: on a precipice and decide not to jump, If the
13:01
Speaker 2: next time you're up there and you're not terrified, you
13:04
Speaker 2: feel like, what's it like to fly, you might make
13:07
Speaker 2: the same decision, even though it's out of character with
13:10
Speaker 2: how you were before that. The self is that fluid essentially,
13:13
Speaker 2: is what he was saying.
13:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he sort of related that to gambling or
13:17
Speaker 1: the gambler who you know, like an addictive gambler who
13:21
Speaker 1: quits gambling and you know, let's say years later they
13:25
Speaker 1: walk by a gambling table and instead of seeing the
13:28
Speaker 1: gambling table and immediately thinking like, God, that's the worst
13:32
Speaker 1: thing that ever happened to me, the reaction is, well,
13:36
Speaker 1: that was sort of a memory of a feeling that
13:38
Speaker 1: I had, and in order to get back that true
13:41
Speaker 1: feeling of I shouldn't do this, I can only do
13:44
Speaker 1: that by doing it again.
13:47
Speaker 3: Sort of like a not quite like rose colored glasses.
13:49
Speaker 1: But I think everyone's sort of had that same feeling
13:52
Speaker 1: about an X.
13:54
Speaker 3: Before years later, where you're like.
13:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was so bad about that, should I give
13:59
Speaker 1: them a call? When in fact it was a terrible
14:02
Speaker 1: situation and like to give them the call and try.
14:05
Speaker 1: I mean, John Cusack made a whole movie about it
14:08
Speaker 1: to go back to and revisit, like the ex girlfriends,
14:10
Speaker 1: And it's just constantly reminded, like the Gambler would be of, like, no,
14:14
Speaker 1: this was a bad idea twenty years ago, it's not
14:17
Speaker 1: a good idea now still.
14:19
Speaker 2: Right, And the same thing holds you for like smoking
14:21
Speaker 2: or something like that, Like when you decided to quit
14:23
Speaker 2: smoking quick gambling, break up, Like you're in a certain
14:27
Speaker 2: experience right then that you don't necessarily feel or experience
14:31
Speaker 2: a year later, so you have to remind yourself like
14:35
Speaker 2: to make that same decision again. Your future self could
14:38
Speaker 2: make a different decision than you did right then and
14:40
Speaker 2: you have no control over it. I know.
14:43
Speaker 1: Pretty awesome, Right, Should we break or should we talk
14:48
Speaker 1: about Gary Cox?
14:48
Speaker 2: Let's finish with Gary Cox real quick, because I like
14:51
Speaker 2: this guy's jib.
14:53
Speaker 1: The cint of his jib. He's a British philosopher. We
14:56
Speaker 1: can pronounce his name, so that's a plus. And he
14:59
Speaker 1: looks at more as an existentialist kind of thing, where
15:04
Speaker 1: we have these psychological defenses that we construct against thing,
15:09
Speaker 1: but they're basically just all an illusion. It's things that
15:12
Speaker 1: we make up to fool ourselves into thinking we have
15:16
Speaker 1: an instinct for self preservation.
15:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's saying that. What Kierka Garden Sart are
15:21
Speaker 2: both saying is essentially that we when we experience the
15:25
Speaker 2: call of the void, that what's called bad faith as
15:28
Speaker 2: far as existentialists are concerned. Anytime we delude ourselves, it's
15:32
Speaker 2: a bad faith illusion essentially, that all of those are
15:37
Speaker 2: just essentially us deluding ourselves, and it's laid bare by
15:41
Speaker 2: the call of the void. Like, the only reason you're
15:44
Speaker 2: not jumping right now is not because you have this
15:46
Speaker 2: self preservation instinct, is not because you don't want to
15:50
Speaker 2: do that to your family or anything like that. It's
15:52
Speaker 2: because you are choosing right then not to jump. That's it.
15:55
Speaker 2: It's the only thing that's preventing you from jumping right then.
15:58
Speaker 2: And that scares the but Jesus out of anybody who
16:01
Speaker 2: has a brain in their head when they experience the
16:03
Speaker 2: call the void, especially when it's accompanied by the urge
16:06
Speaker 2: to jump, not just the thought of jumping.
16:09
Speaker 3: Yeah, so shall we break now.
16:12
Speaker 2: Yes, look at that with the ball, go, we knocked
16:14
Speaker 2: it out of the park.
16:15
Speaker 1: We'll come back and we'll talk about these intrusive thoughts
16:18
Speaker 1: that people are having right after this.
16:45
Speaker 2: All right, Tuck, I feel like I should start with
16:46
Speaker 2: a confession. I've been talking a lot of macho talk
16:50
Speaker 2: about te balls and hitting it out of the park.
16:54
Speaker 2: I used to strike out at T ball pretty often,
16:59
Speaker 2: and they give you a lot more than just three
17:01
Speaker 2: strikes before they tell you to go sit down, like
17:04
Speaker 2: maybe seven eight, sometimes depending on the coach, and I
17:08
Speaker 2: would still strike out and it happened more than once.
17:12
Speaker 3: Yeah, what was happening there?
17:14
Speaker 2: What's happening there is? I was a terrible T ball player.
17:18
Speaker 3: I didn't play T ball, so you know I didn't
17:20
Speaker 3: have that experience.
17:21
Speaker 2: But you know what t ball is, right.
17:23
Speaker 3: Yeah, you set a ball on a tee, it's not moving,
17:25
Speaker 3: not going anywhere, and you've got a baseball bat in
17:28
Speaker 3: your hand.
17:29
Speaker 2: Yeah. I thought i'd feel better after admitting that, I
17:32
Speaker 2: feel much worse.
17:33
Speaker 1: Actually, well, you've told me that before, so I was
17:37
Speaker 1: pre I felt bad for you back then.
17:40
Speaker 3: It's funny.
17:40
Speaker 2: Have I talked about it on the podcast or was
17:42
Speaker 2: in private?
17:43
Speaker 1: No, I was on the show, but that's okay. It
17:45
Speaker 1: was years ago, Okay, Yeah, we've been doing this for
17:48
Speaker 1: sixteen years. That's gonna happen what.
17:52
Speaker 3: We promised.
17:53
Speaker 1: Talk about intrusive thoughts and intrusive thought is defined base
18:00
Speaker 1: as a thought that is not in character for you,
18:04
Speaker 1: that you're thinking it. It's pretty bothersome and it's a
18:08
Speaker 1: hard thing for you to control, and if you start
18:11
Speaker 1: really digging in and worrying about it and looking for
18:14
Speaker 1: meaning behind it, they can be very, very disruptive to
18:17
Speaker 1: someone's life.
18:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're really a problem for people who have clinical
18:22
Speaker 2: obsessive compulsive disorder.
18:25
Speaker 3: Yeah.
18:25
Speaker 2: The reason why there's such a problem is, I mean,
18:27
Speaker 2: intrusive thoughts can affect anybody. You don't have to have OCD.
18:31
Speaker 2: The problem that a companies OCD is that people will
18:35
Speaker 2: try to find a way of coping with that intrusive thought.
18:39
Speaker 2: And the classic example is being a germa feeling like
18:43
Speaker 2: your hands are dirty, so you go wash your hands.
18:46
Speaker 2: By washing your hands, you're coping with the sensation that
18:49
Speaker 2: your hands are dirty, you have germs on your hands,
18:51
Speaker 2: and you alleviate that by washing your hands. Well, if
18:55
Speaker 2: you have an intrusive thought and the idea that your
18:57
Speaker 2: hands are dirty is essentially constant, you're gonna spend a
19:00
Speaker 2: lot of your time washing your hands, and it's going
19:03
Speaker 2: to actually impact your life. That's a classic example of
19:06
Speaker 2: somebody suffering from OCD. But if you take away the
19:11
Speaker 2: you know, washing your hands to alleviate that stress from
19:16
Speaker 2: the intrusive thought, you have what happens to basically anybody,
19:19
Speaker 2: this thought that kind of comes out of nowhere. It's
19:21
Speaker 2: often very, very troubling. There's a whole variety called morbid obsessions,
19:26
Speaker 2: which is, you know, I could pick up that axe
19:29
Speaker 2: and kill my whole family right now. And then you're like,
19:31
Speaker 2: wait a minute, why am I thinking that? And you
19:33
Speaker 2: feel horrible for that even crossing your mind because what
19:36
Speaker 2: loving you know, husband, wife, child, would ever think of
19:40
Speaker 2: something like that. And you start to go down that
19:43
Speaker 2: road and you're too afraid to even bring it up
19:45
Speaker 2: to anybody. You'll want to be like, hey, I just
19:47
Speaker 2: thought of killing all of you guys with an axe.
19:49
Speaker 2: Let's talk that out. So the more you keep it
19:52
Speaker 2: to yourself and ruminate on it, the more terrifying it becomes.
19:56
Speaker 2: And that is essentially the cycle of intrusive thought that
20:00
Speaker 2: can only be broken by essentially saying that was an
20:03
Speaker 2: intrusive thought. I accept as an intrusive thought. I don't
20:06
Speaker 2: actually want to kill my family with an axe. And
20:08
Speaker 2: this kind of thing happens to everybody.
20:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, Lyvia pointed out she did a
20:13
Speaker 1: great job with the school, by the way.
20:15
Speaker 2: She knocked the cheek all out of the part she did.
20:19
Speaker 1: Lyvia pointed out that this has led to a lot
20:22
Speaker 1: of bad stuff, especially with people with OCD in the past,
20:26
Speaker 1: with like the court system and like having children taken
20:30
Speaker 1: away or something. Because the old idea, as far as
20:34
Speaker 1: psychiatry is concerned or psycho analysis is concerned, was if
20:38
Speaker 1: you're having these ideations, it's really a manifestation of your
20:44
Speaker 1: unconscious desire. So if you have a thought about, you know,
20:49
Speaker 1: drowning your children, and then all of a sudden, you're
20:52
Speaker 1: going down this rabbit hole of like, oh my god,
20:54
Speaker 1: how could I think that? And what is that all about?
20:56
Speaker 3: Now?
20:56
Speaker 1: And then you're just really drilling down into that because
20:59
Speaker 1: you're horrified by it. You have now an analyst saying, oh, well,
21:03
Speaker 1: that's really your unconscious desire, your honor or, ladies and
21:07
Speaker 1: gentlemen of the jury. And so you get your children
21:10
Speaker 1: taken away, and now they're saying like that's not true
21:12
Speaker 1: at all, Like it's not an unconscious desire. It's someone
21:16
Speaker 1: who's horrified by these thoughts that are obsessing about them
21:20
Speaker 1: because they're horrified about it exactly.
21:22
Speaker 2: And I think the very fact that you're horrified by
21:24
Speaker 2: it shows you just how far you are from actually
21:28
Speaker 2: committing that act. So, yeah, the idea that people used
21:32
Speaker 2: to get their children it happened at least twice. I
21:34
Speaker 2: could find two cases that happened fairly recently where mothers
21:38
Speaker 2: in both cases confided in either their psychiatrist or their obgyn,
21:44
Speaker 2: who both just turned around and called child protective Services
21:47
Speaker 2: or the cops, you know. And just the idea that
21:50
Speaker 2: they had it so backwards and that this happens everybody,
21:54
Speaker 2: but they lost their kids because they sought help for it.
21:57
Speaker 2: That's just that's terrible. So I'm glad we figured out
22:00
Speaker 2: that that's not the case, and the fact that it
22:03
Speaker 2: can be treated pretty easily. You can even self treat
22:06
Speaker 2: if you learn the steps to identifying an intrusive thought.
22:10
Speaker 2: Saying it to yourself is just an intrusive thought. Like
22:12
Speaker 2: I said, you don't want to do this, and that
22:14
Speaker 2: this happens to everybody. If it's really bad and you
22:17
Speaker 2: feel like you can't self treat, there are treatments you
22:20
Speaker 2: can go seek that are also very effective. One of
22:22
Speaker 2: them is exposure and response prevention. And one of the
22:27
Speaker 2: examples I've seen is if you think about killing your
22:31
Speaker 2: family with a butcher knife, your therapist will come to
22:35
Speaker 2: your house and give you the butcher knife and sit
22:39
Speaker 2: you on the couch next to your family and basically
22:42
Speaker 2: be like, do you really want to kill your family,
22:44
Speaker 2: because now's your time to do it if you want.
22:47
Speaker 2: And I've seen that they actually will have say like
22:49
Speaker 2: a father look at their son and be like, please
22:51
Speaker 2: don't kill me son as part of this therapy. And
22:55
Speaker 2: it works because you see firsthand like you could do
22:58
Speaker 2: it right then, and you're just you don't want to,
23:00
Speaker 2: You're not going, you're not moved to doing that. You
23:03
Speaker 2: have control over your behavior, and you see it firsthand
23:07
Speaker 2: right there, and that tends to actually help quite a bit.
23:10
Speaker 2: And so the fact that that helps and you can
23:12
Speaker 2: self treat shows that it is just a weird fluke
23:15
Speaker 2: of human psychology and that it happens to everybody, including
23:19
Speaker 2: really violent, terrible stuff that you can think about. Everyone
23:24
Speaker 2: happens to everyone.
23:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, And if we uncomfortably giggled during that part, it's
23:31
Speaker 1: not because we don't think that that must be the
23:35
Speaker 1: hardest thing in the world would be to sit down
23:38
Speaker 1: and have a therapy session like that right with your family. Like,
23:41
Speaker 1: I can't even imagine what that's like to sit down
23:44
Speaker 1: and have to do something like that, so or what
23:46
Speaker 1: it costs.
23:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, I got a snort for that one.
23:54
Speaker 3: Oh wow, you sure did. I don't do that much.
23:57
Speaker 1: I guess we should talk about the studies. And when
23:59
Speaker 1: I say study, I mean studies kind of one too.
24:03
Speaker 1: There haven't been a ton of them. Lyvia dug up
24:05
Speaker 1: a couple in twenty eleven, there was a psychologist named
24:10
Speaker 1: Jennifer Haymes from Florida State. Along with her colleagues are
24:14
Speaker 1: at Florida State. They're the people who coin the HPP
24:17
Speaker 1: term high Places phenomenon. And they asked four hundred and
24:21
Speaker 1: thirty one FSU students.
24:23
Speaker 2: I guess, yeah, go fighting elione, I no, come.
24:27
Speaker 3: On, seminoles, you know that. Yeah? Sure.
24:32
Speaker 1: They asked four hundred and thirty one of their students
24:35
Speaker 1: about their experiences with high place phenomenon. More than thirty
24:39
Speaker 1: percent had experience that urged to jump, and among those
24:42
Speaker 1: who had never experienced suicidal ideation, because you know, when
24:46
Speaker 1: they study something like this, they're trying to separate those
24:48
Speaker 1: things out of just the call of the void and
24:51
Speaker 1: someone who actually has thought about taking their own lives.
24:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, because Freud led everybody down a blind alley by
24:58
Speaker 2: basically saying, oh, actually, this this is our innate drive
25:02
Speaker 2: to want to kill ourselves. That's really at play, And
25:05
Speaker 2: it turned out it's just not true at all.
25:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, So among those who had never experienced suicidal ideation,
25:12
Speaker 1: there were still seventeen percent who had the urge to
25:16
Speaker 1: jump at least one time.
25:17
Speaker 3: And I believe.
25:18
Speaker 1: Half of the people who had suicidal feelings said the same.
25:23
Speaker 1: It was about the same number.
25:24
Speaker 2: Right, And the researchers are like, this not quite track, Like,
25:27
Speaker 2: let's reframe the question. And they asked the same people,
25:30
Speaker 2: have you ever thought about jumping from a bridge or
25:33
Speaker 2: a building? And they're like, oh, yeah, I've thought about
25:36
Speaker 2: that for sure. That's what I'm saying. There's a difference
25:39
Speaker 2: between just being up there and thinking like what would
25:41
Speaker 2: happen if I did this the thought pops in your head, right,
25:44
Speaker 2: or the urge where you have to push yourself away
25:47
Speaker 2: from the balcony. Those are two slightly separate experiences, and
25:50
Speaker 2: the just the thought popping in people's heads seemed as
25:53
Speaker 2: to be the more common one. So when they reframed
25:56
Speaker 2: the question like that seventy four percent of people who
26:00
Speaker 2: had gone through suicidal ideation said yeah, I've done that.
26:04
Speaker 2: Forty three percent of non suicidal ideators just say the
26:08
Speaker 2: general population said that that happened to them. So almost
26:12
Speaker 2: half of people walking around are like said like, yeah,
26:16
Speaker 2: it's occurred to me to throw myself off the top
26:18
Speaker 2: of a tall building. One I've been up there. And
26:21
Speaker 2: even then Hames and her colleagues were like, I still
26:24
Speaker 2: think that's a little small. And they've come up with
26:26
Speaker 2: little ways to essentially say, like, some people are forgetting
26:30
Speaker 2: that this actually happened to them.
26:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, and mine is always a thought. It's never a
26:35
Speaker 1: true urge. But they you know, after this study, one
26:39
Speaker 1: of the things that they talked about was sort of
26:40
Speaker 1: like what you said with Freud, where they said, like, no,
26:43
Speaker 1: this is not a manifestation of the death drive, of
26:48
Speaker 1: the urge to take your own life, And they looked
26:51
Speaker 1: at actual, you know, real cases of suicide. They looked
26:54
Speaker 1: at previous research and all the data, and their argument was,
26:59
Speaker 1: you know, when someone takes their own life, it's rarely
27:02
Speaker 1: a truly truly impulsive act, right. It's usually something that
27:07
Speaker 1: has happened over time, and it's in a big sort
27:12
Speaker 1: of accumulation of these ideations. And while the exact moment
27:17
Speaker 1: may have some impulsivity to it, it's rarely just a
27:21
Speaker 1: completely impulsive.
27:22
Speaker 2: Act, right. And usually it's characterized by resolution more than
27:26
Speaker 2: impulsiveness too, you know.
27:28
Speaker 3: If the person is this is something I'm gonna.
27:30
Speaker 2: Do, yes, exactly. So they basically said, Okay, Freud was
27:35
Speaker 2: totally wrong, but still we think that some people don't
27:39
Speaker 2: really remember that this happened. We think that more people
27:42
Speaker 2: than say, forty three percent of the population have experienced this.
27:46
Speaker 2: And one of the explanations they had was that one
27:51
Speaker 2: thing we left out. They've found a huge correlation between
27:55
Speaker 2: people who experience anxiety and people who have experienced the
28:00
Speaker 2: high place phenomenon or the call of the void. Right.
28:03
Speaker 2: And so what Hames and her colleague said was, all right,
28:06
Speaker 2: what we think happened is when you're anxious. When you're
28:08
Speaker 2: an anxious person, you're more attuned to like internal signals yea,
28:12
Speaker 2: and so you are experiencing those like more acutely, like
28:17
Speaker 2: all the symptoms associated with it, like just being nervous
28:20
Speaker 2: and just having like your stomach kind of topsy turvy,
28:23
Speaker 2: Like those symptoms stand out to you more. And so
28:26
Speaker 2: those people remember having experienced to call the void more,
28:30
Speaker 2: so they're more likely to report it. And that everybody,
28:34
Speaker 2: most people probably experience this. It's just some people it
28:38
Speaker 2: just so fleeting or whatever to them that they don't
28:41
Speaker 2: remember it later on. I find that questionable, but that's
28:44
Speaker 2: kind of how they explained it.
28:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they also sort of wrap their heads around
28:49
Speaker 1: the idea that the call of the void is as.
28:53
Speaker 3: A survival instinct.
28:55
Speaker 1: It's kind of the opposite of what people, especially Freud,
28:59
Speaker 1: had previously thought of it, is that it reflects a
29:01
Speaker 1: survival instinct that we have to, you know, sort of
29:07
Speaker 1: think about that in terms of framing it of how
29:10
Speaker 1: they are appreciating being alive and not doing that.
29:14
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the scientific explanation O Koran, which means current,
29:20
Speaker 2: is that when you're up there on a tall building
29:23
Speaker 2: and you're looking over the edge or something like that,
29:26
Speaker 2: your innate instinct, like say your lizard brain is like
29:28
Speaker 2: jump back jack, and so it sends a fear signal,
29:33
Speaker 2: and your rational brain, which is a little bit slower,
29:36
Speaker 2: catches up and is like, hey, why am I feeling fear?
29:38
Speaker 2: There's no danger here whatsoever. There's like a sturdy railing
29:41
Speaker 2: and I've got like a solid floor beneath my feet.
29:44
Speaker 2: I guess I'm afraid, or I guess I got a
29:46
Speaker 2: fear signal because I had the urge to jump, And
29:49
Speaker 2: that that's the call of the void. That it's a
29:52
Speaker 2: miscommunication or misunderstanding of your physiology and your rational mind essentially,
30:01
Speaker 2: and that that's what the called void is. I guess.
30:05
Speaker 2: I mean that's certainly certainly jibes to a certain extent,
30:09
Speaker 2: but I don't it still doesn't quite stand out to me,
30:13
Speaker 2: like like carecer guards and SARTs explanations, Like I think
30:17
Speaker 2: they just completely nailed it, I like like five whiffle
30:22
Speaker 2: balls at once out of the park.
30:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they did the study and they had
30:27
Speaker 1: data and stuff, but then there's a lot of just
30:29
Speaker 1: philosophical extrapolation, right that you may not fully be on
30:33
Speaker 1: board with. Yeah, there was another study, I think maybe
30:37
Speaker 1: only the other the only other study I couldn't find
30:40
Speaker 1: any other ones. No, huh, Tobias Ticeman and his other
30:47
Speaker 1: coworkers there at ruher Univastett Boucham, this is in Germany.
30:52
Speaker 2: That's the fighting ruh jers.
30:56
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty, and they looked at a couple of
30:59
Speaker 1: different samples of two hundred and seventy six people who
31:02
Speaker 1: did an online survey, about half of them had experienced
31:06
Speaker 1: suicidal ideation at some point. And then ninety four patients
31:10
Speaker 1: who were being treated for flight phobia, like you know,
31:13
Speaker 1: fear of flying in a plane, which used to have
31:15
Speaker 1: pretty solidly but seemed to have gotten over pretty well.
31:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, I did you know you.
31:20
Speaker 3: Don't cover your head with a blanket anymore when you fly,
31:22
Speaker 3: which is great.
31:22
Speaker 2: No, it is, it's very nice, because that was tortuous.
31:25
Speaker 3: Of course.
31:26
Speaker 1: And along the lines of the Ham study, eighty percent
31:28
Speaker 1: of the people who had experienced suicidal ideation had experienced HPP.
31:33
Speaker 1: Forty five percent of those experienced HPP who hadn't experienced
31:38
Speaker 1: or who hadn't gone through suicidal ideas.
31:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's almost like exactly the same numbers, which is crazy.
31:44
Speaker 2: And then it's crazy who was that it was supposed
31:49
Speaker 2: to be walking but it's that was so bad. I'm
31:52
Speaker 2: going to say, Colonel Sanders.
31:54
Speaker 3: No no, no, no no. I got walking after you said it, so,
31:57
Speaker 3: just like every great impression.
31:59
Speaker 2: After I explained it. So, Tobias Tiesman, is that how
32:04
Speaker 2: you pronounced his name earlier?
32:06
Speaker 3: I think it's Tysman. I think it's the second letter
32:08
Speaker 3: for Germany.
32:09
Speaker 2: Okay, Tobias Ticsman at all. The same study also used
32:13
Speaker 2: a different group, looked at a different group people who
32:15
Speaker 2: suffer from clinical fear of heights acrophobia, and they found
32:22
Speaker 2: that only forty five percent of them had ever experienced
32:26
Speaker 2: high place phenomenon, which is basically tracking exactly with the
32:30
Speaker 2: general population. So that shows that it really is not
32:33
Speaker 2: it doesn't stem from a fear of heights, even though
32:36
Speaker 2: there's other people that say that's exactly what it stems from.
32:40
Speaker 1: And so then they the people that they were reporting
32:42
Speaker 1: to and getting their funding from, said so, what'd you
32:45
Speaker 1: learn about the fear of flying? And they said nothing, right.
32:49
Speaker 2: Sorry, exactly, And Delta was like, man, yeah, you got
32:53
Speaker 2: to stop funding these terrible studies.
32:55
Speaker 1: Have you heard of this call of avoid thing? They're like,
32:57
Speaker 1: oh jeez, we're only the second study.
33:00
Speaker 2: So right, we'll get it someday, I say, we take
33:04
Speaker 2: our second break and then come back and do more speculating.
33:08
Speaker 1: All right, so Lyvia dug up some more, some more speculation,
33:38
Speaker 1: which is what she called this section.
33:39
Speaker 3: Actually what did she call this article? It was great.
33:42
Speaker 3: I don't have my title page.
33:44
Speaker 2: The Call of the Void. Don't pick it up?
33:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, I promised Lyvia, We're going to use that as
33:50
Speaker 1: the actual title one day.
33:51
Speaker 2: Yep.
33:52
Speaker 3: Is it going to be this one?
33:53
Speaker 2: I think this might be. This might be a yeah,
33:55
Speaker 2: that's a good one.
33:56
Speaker 3: I think so.
33:57
Speaker 2: And I added in it it's don't pick.
33:59
Speaker 3: Up, don't pick up, yeah, which is even funnier. Actually
34:04
Speaker 3: for sure.
34:04
Speaker 1: There's a psychology professor from Britain, or researcher rather, named
34:09
Speaker 1: Paul Salkovski who basically said, the thoughts of doing these,
34:15
Speaker 1: you know, inappropriate things or dangerous things like the Call
34:17
Speaker 1: of the Void are a result of our problem solving
34:22
Speaker 1: process within the brain. So our subconscious just throwing something
34:25
Speaker 1: out there, and then our rational brain getting an opportunity
34:29
Speaker 1: to say, like, no, that's of course I'm not going
34:31
Speaker 1: to jump off or jump off a bridge.
34:33
Speaker 2: That's a terrible idea. And then your unconscious is like,
34:36
Speaker 2: but you could.
34:37
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm down with that one. I'm not down with
34:40
Speaker 3: that one.
34:40
Speaker 2: Rather, Okay, I got one. So and I guess when
34:42
Speaker 2: we're going back and forth like this, everybody should just
34:44
Speaker 2: imagine us like we're going to break off and now
34:46
Speaker 2: like you've backed off, like you did a little dance
34:49
Speaker 2: to back out, and now I did a little dance
34:50
Speaker 2: to back in or jump in.
34:52
Speaker 3: Okay, So cardboards on the Pavement.
34:55
Speaker 2: There's a really great article and Nautilus about this too.
35:00
Speaker 2: I was a researcher named Adam Anderson who as a
35:03
Speaker 2: cognitive neuroscientist at Cornell. I like this guy's idea. He
35:07
Speaker 2: basically says that when we're on a tall building, we're
35:11
Speaker 2: so just not designed to experience heights that it's not
35:16
Speaker 2: exactly new. I mean, cliffs have been around for a
35:18
Speaker 2: long time, but our experience of being high up is
35:22
Speaker 2: far more frequent than it ever was in the past,
35:26
Speaker 2: just even a few hundred years ago. Right, So when
35:28
Speaker 2: we're up there, that lizard brain again is like, oh,
35:31
Speaker 2: we're in danger. We're in danger, and that same lizard
35:34
Speaker 2: brain says, let's get to safety as soon as possible. Hey,
35:37
Speaker 2: there's the ground, it's safe to be on the ground.
35:40
Speaker 2: Let's just jump and be on the ground. And luckily
35:42
Speaker 2: our rational brain catches up in time and is like, no,
35:46
Speaker 2: I get what you're saying, Like, yes, this is kind
35:48
Speaker 2: of dangerous, but jumping to the ground is a really
35:50
Speaker 2: terrible idea, and we're not going to do that. But
35:52
Speaker 2: that that is the call of the void, that that's
35:55
Speaker 2: what gives us that urge to jump. It's our dumb,
35:59
Speaker 2: dumb on content his mind's seeking safety.
36:02
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's interesting, I think.
36:04
Speaker 2: Okay, you jumping in.
36:06
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll jump in. Okay, I'll pop in lock.
36:10
Speaker 1: Even though we said that it's not related to acrophobia,
36:13
Speaker 1: there are people who think it is. There's an Oxford
36:16
Speaker 1: psychologist named Daniel Freeman who said, no, it actually is
36:20
Speaker 1: part of the trifecta of what you might experience if
36:24
Speaker 1: you have a fear of heights, fear of falling, fear
36:27
Speaker 1: that whatever you're on the bridge or whatever will collapse
36:30
Speaker 1: beneath you, and then the third one, which is a
36:33
Speaker 1: fear of jumping.
36:34
Speaker 3: So he lumps it.
36:35
Speaker 1: In there as part of the trio of things that
36:39
Speaker 1: what he thinks make up acrophobia.
36:42
Speaker 2: Or the fear of jumping part of it. He's saying, like,
36:45
Speaker 2: is the call of the void or triggered by it?
36:47
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, yeah, that's the call of the void.
36:50
Speaker 1: But he thinks it is a form of acrophobia.
36:53
Speaker 2: Right exactly. I don't know. I didn't see much support
36:56
Speaker 2: for his but nah, yeah, there's a neuroscientists too, apparently
37:01
Speaker 2: as a real pedant, because psychologists have been seeking to
37:05
Speaker 2: basically discredit Freud's idea that the call of the void
37:08
Speaker 2: is actually a manifestation of our urge to destroy ourselves,
37:13
Speaker 2: you know, wrought large or writ large, right, And they
37:18
Speaker 2: found like, no, that's not true. And Emil gabrielle Bruno,
37:23
Speaker 2: who again as a neuroscientist, who was like, actually, there's
37:27
Speaker 2: a there's a condition where you can actually have some
37:30
Speaker 2: sort of pre funnel cortex damage and you'll violate social
37:34
Speaker 2: norms left and right. They that person may actually follow
37:38
Speaker 2: the urge of the call of the void. It could
37:40
Speaker 2: actually result in somebody jumping, and everybody stopped inviting Emil
37:46
Speaker 2: Gabriel Bruno to their conferences.
37:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm with everybody there. Yeah, I don't need somebody
37:53
Speaker 1: pointing that out. All kinds of terrible things can happen
37:57
Speaker 1: when you have a damage to your.
38:00
Speaker 2: Exactly do you want to end with Judith dan Koff, Yeah,
38:04
Speaker 2: I'm going to sit down and let you take it home.
38:06
Speaker 1: Judith Dankoff as a novelist who described the urge to
38:10
Speaker 1: jump in Washington State from Deception Pass Bridge. I mean,
38:17
Speaker 1: just that name alone makes you want to do something weird.
38:19
Speaker 1: I think as not a frightening thing, but like an
38:23
Speaker 1: urge to fly. And that's sort of along the lines
38:26
Speaker 1: of what I was talking about, not necessarily urged to fly,
38:29
Speaker 1: but just sort of like to see what it's like, right,
38:33
Speaker 1: you know.
38:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, and hers was serious enough, for significant enough that
38:38
Speaker 2: she just sat down in the middle of the bridge
38:40
Speaker 2: to make sure she didn't actually follow through on the urge.
38:43
Speaker 2: It was that strong.
38:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, and she quit knitting her Macromey wings.
38:50
Speaker 2: You got anything else, No, sir, That's the call of
38:53
Speaker 2: the void. Everybody don't feel weird if number one you
38:58
Speaker 2: experience it, and number two you feel like no one's
39:01
Speaker 2: actually fully explained what it is because they haven't. And
39:05
Speaker 2: since I said that, it's time for listener man.
39:10
Speaker 1: This is just sort of a quick one that came
39:11
Speaker 1: in today because I think a lot of people don't
39:14
Speaker 1: know that this is the case, and we say it
39:16
Speaker 1: from time to time, but this is about our bumper
39:18
Speaker 1: music that we play between commercial and content. Yes, hey guys,
39:24
Speaker 1: I've been listening to the show for several years now.
39:26
Speaker 1: My hobby is woodworking, so I always listen with ear
39:28
Speaker 1: muffs and Bluetooth built in built in bluetooth to protect
39:33
Speaker 1: my ears and still hear the show. I enjoy the
39:35
Speaker 1: very jingles that you play at the beginning and the
39:37
Speaker 1: end of the breaks. Even if I skip the ads,
39:41
Speaker 1: I always make sure to listen to the jingles, and
39:44
Speaker 1: I usually even sing along. Can you provide a collection
39:47
Speaker 1: of these, I'm not the only one who loves them.
39:51
Speaker 3: Keep up with the great info and the entertaining tunes.
39:53
Speaker 3: That's from Rob and Rob.
39:55
Speaker 1: We read this because, like I said, I don't think
39:58
Speaker 1: a lot of people realize that those are all one
40:01
Speaker 1: hundred percent of them are made by listeners. People send
40:04
Speaker 1: them in. We don't use every single one of them.
40:08
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's just you know, some.
40:10
Speaker 3: Are better than others.
40:11
Speaker 1: But we use most of them and we're always willing
40:14
Speaker 1: to listen to them. Keep under around twelve seconds long,
40:17
Speaker 1: and that's kind of been one of the very fun
40:19
Speaker 1: things of the show is hearing everyone's take on the
40:22
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know jingle theme.
40:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, everybody has a favorite. Two. That's the coolest part
40:28
Speaker 2: is you talk to Stuff you Should Know listeners and
40:30
Speaker 2: everybody has their own favorite jingles.
40:33
Speaker 3: Yeah.
40:33
Speaker 1: And sometimes Jerry is invested enough in editing a particular
40:38
Speaker 1: episode to try and be a little cheeky with some
40:42
Speaker 1: particular style as it relates to topic. And sometimes that
40:45
Speaker 1: happens purely by happenstance, and has even happened to our
40:49
Speaker 1: disadvantage at times when people are like, Hey, why'd you
40:52
Speaker 1: play that kind of music in this one? That's really
40:55
Speaker 1: not too cool, and it's just like, oh, shoot, that
40:58
Speaker 1: was an accident.
41:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember the one you're talking about too, and
41:02
Speaker 2: I'm not going to name it either. Yeah, who was
41:06
Speaker 2: that from?
41:07
Speaker 3: That's from Rob.
41:08
Speaker 2: That was awesome, Rob, thank you for asking that setting
41:10
Speaker 2: us up like a d ball coach for that one.
41:14
Speaker 2: If you want to be like Rob and get in
41:16
Speaker 2: touch with us and ask us a question that we
41:18
Speaker 2: can answer, we love to answer questions. And if you're
41:21
Speaker 2: a listener who has a little bit of musical talent
41:23
Speaker 2: and you want to share a jingle, with us. We
41:25
Speaker 2: would love that too. Either way, you can wrap it up,
41:29
Speaker 2: spank it on the bottom, and send it off to
41:31
Speaker 2: stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.
41:37
Speaker 3: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For
41:40
Speaker 3: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
41:44
Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.