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10 Year Career Break. Could You Really Go Back? · Work It Like A Mum

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willis, and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids, and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a working mum with over 17 years of improvement experience, and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women Job Board and Community.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: In this show, I'm honored to be chatting with remarkable women, redefining our working world across all areas of business.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success as children, their boundaries of balance, the challenges they face, and how to overcome them.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Find their own version of success.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Shy away from the real talk.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: No way.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Money struggles growth, boundaries of balance.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: We cover it all.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Think of this as coffee with your mate.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Mixed with an inspiring TikTok, sprinkled with the career advice you wish you'd really had at school.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Make sure you're cozy and get ready to get inspired and chase your oldest dreams.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Or just survive Mondays.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: This is the Work It Like a Mum podcast.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Investing in Women is a job board and recruitment agency helping you find your dream part-time or flexible job with the UK's most family-friendly and forward-thinking employers.
• 1:28
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• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: They're proud to partner with the UK's most family-friendly employers across a range of professional industries.
• 1:40
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• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Search their website at investinginwomen.co.uk to find your next part-time or flexible job opportunity.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: Now, back to the show.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Work It Like a Mum podcast.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: Today I have the lovely Ellie Sainsbury, and she is going to be talking to me all about her return to work after a career break.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: And she now works as a project manager at Complete Projects, which is one of our fantastic clients.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: But it wasn't a seamless and easy way back into her old corporate career.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: So we're going to be talking all about how she has made the leap from stay-home parent back into the corporate world.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: So if you are on a career break at the moment, you're looking for a bit of inspiration about how you can find your way back, then this episode is for you.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much, Ellie, for joining us today.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, that's fine.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: No, thank you for joining us.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really looking forward to chatting.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: So can you take us back to your career before you had children?
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: So what were you doing and what did you enjoy about that stage of your career?
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I started my sort of post-university career and stayed with the same company, a market research company, for about a decade.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: I was um working, as I said, market research, which um it's quite a niche sector, um, and most people don't know anything about it until they get involved.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but we were effectively managing uh the recruitment of participants to um focus groups and stuff like that.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: Nice.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: What did you enjoy about the job?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um well it's funny because when I was thinking about return to career and stuff like that, I was thinking about what aspects of the job were quite nice.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: I liked having projects rather than sort of a never-ending, you know, this job is gonna go on forever.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: I liked being able to be like, right, completed, done, and being happy that I I uh done that and I could file it away and then move on to the next one.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that was definitely something that I enjoyed about it.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: And the team was fun as well.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was a young team.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, most of us were in our 20s, and it was back in the day when everyone went into the office every day.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, we were, you know, it sounds ridiculous, but we were like a big group of friends working together, which was nice.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I always think I always think it's who you work with.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you could have actually a pretty crappy job, but if you work with an amazing team, exactly everyone like pull through, pulls together, and yeah, it's really good.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: So you then had a career break, didn't you?
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: Of almost 10 years while raising your four children.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: Was that always the plan, or did the break break become longer than expected?
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't think it was at all the plan to start with.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um certainly four children wasn't it wasn't our initial um gambit, but um I think um I returned to work between child one and child two, and um when I got pregnant with child two, um I uh I was like, mm, I think I'm gonna want a big family, and I don't see how working the job role as it was then, because obviously then it's pre-COVID in the office every day, you know, a 45-minute commute, you know, the kids would have been in childcare for about 10 hours a day, and I just couldn't see how that fitted.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, luckily, we were in a position where we were able for me to not work.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so that was it.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: I uh I stepped down and then um had three more kids.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, nice, nice.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: I know you were busy though, weren't you, during your career break.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: Tell the listeners what you were doing because you weren't, you know, there was other things you were doing as well as raising your kids.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I volunteered at a well, this was after the pandemic.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously, um I think the pandemic hit uh when child three was born.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I um I volunteered once everything started opening up again to restart one of the local playgroups in the area we'd moved to because um I could see that there was nowhere that parents could just walk to to take their um preschoolers.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um so me and a group of volunteers, we we worked together and we sort of set that all up.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: And um, yeah, it's one of those things where you kind of think of the playgroup as just like putting out toys, but actually the work behind it.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I can imagine just the policies, the insurance, everything.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're just like safeguarding.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, luckily, well, we did the research, but the safeguarding wasn't an issue because parents stay with their kids.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh right, yeah, yeah.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you're not um you're not taking like responsibility.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: You're not responsible, yeah.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for the child's welfare.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: But obviously, you still had to like, you know, not move tables around when their kids were running around.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's just so much, like just setting up all the banking, everything was, you know, was a slog.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: So looking back, what skills were you actually using and developing, do you think, during that time?
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that actually I think was really useful because first of all, it gave me a bit of confidence because I I did I started that when I was maybe I was like four years in, five years into um not working.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, you get that sort of fear that you you don't know what you're doing anymore, and that you know, am I have I got the brain capacity to do this?
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um so doing that like gave me a huge boost in confidence.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I was also doing things that I hadn't done before, um writing policy.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'd done a little bit of it, but that wasn't the core of my job.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um sorting out, yeah, sorting out the insurance and things like that.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then you know, the fun stuff like making different crafts for the kids, but yeah, yeah, like blue pleater.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, nice like budgeting, like bookkeeping.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, I had to manage budgets before, but um, you know, I was literally doing the bookkeeping, and that's not something I'd ever done before.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: So nice.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: So were you worried about you know having been out of the corporate world for so long it would be difficult to get back in?
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Did I ever crush your mind?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um not going into the playgroup because I I don't think I really anticipated what I was getting myself in.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um returning to like real work when I did that, that was definitely a factor.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think um because my maternity spanned the pandemic, the world of work was just a completely different scene when I was looking to get back in.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so um uh my first my first proper paid role after the pandemic was working um in a sort of assistant capacity at um at a local school.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that almost kind of, you know, it was kind of like training wheels or something to like remind again remind myself that you know I was actually capable of doing things, yeah.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, seeing how the juggle worked with family and stuff like that.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: So why did you choose that particular role as your route back into paid employment, then going back to something you were doing before?
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um the main reason was because we needed to factor in our childcare costs.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um and with the school, they they were brilliant, they were so flexible, and I was able to work only when the children were at school.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: So they weren't um there was there was no repercussions on like the children or on our finances.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: So everything I made was was a profit, basically.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I think yeah, both both sides of that, the the not not changing the kids' lives because I was still going to be cat collecting them from school, still gonna be dropping them off, and not having any costs associated with me working was yeah, it was everything I could have needed to dip my toes back in, basically.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: Was the school the one that your children attended as well?
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and I think again that probably helped because I'm not sure I would have got the job if they didn't know me and they didn't know my kids.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, and again, it's literally like I dropped them into the classrooms and then I walked over to my office.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you didn't have an extra commute, did you?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so there was no time lost.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the other thing, is like, you know, if you lose the time of another 20 minutes, then your working hours are less and stuff.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Had you built up a relationship with the school then before I know you'd obviously got children there, but had you made extra effort as a parent to build a relationship with the school?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't, I mean, I volunteered for like events, but I wouldn't say that I was doing anything above and beyond any of the other parents.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um obviously they knew me, um, they knew my children's attendance was good.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: So um, and but nothing, I wouldn't say I was particularly involved, no.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: And once you were there, did you find the reality was different at all than what you expected?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um in terms of the job role, I mean I guess it kind of crystallised for me the fact that I do need a bit more of a challenge when I'm working.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um it as I said, they were lovely and they they were super flexible, but the work was um probably at level that for me didn't provide like much to get my teeth into.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I did find myself kind of getting to the point where I was like, okay, what else can I do now?
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: What can I do?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that sort of refocused my desire to kind of get back into a more substantial corporate job, I guess.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: So one thing um that I know we've previously talked about is the financial side of career um decision.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: So at what point did you realise that staying in education didn't make sense for you and your family?
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, well, again, the school were being lovely and they were offering me uh more hours and sort of more development opportunities.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: And the reality was that that would involve me then having to pay for childcare.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: And when I was considering, right, am I going to work something more like a full-time role?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: Does the financials make sense?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because as I said, I've got four kids, putting four kids in wraparound care.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: And do you not get a discount working at the school?
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: To be honest, I didn't actually ask.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh because it's not just that, it's lamps and stuff like that.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um and again, it's the not being there at drop-off and not being there at collection.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's you know, there was there was a lot of factors that came into it.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: So um, so yeah, once once there was talk of having more more hours at the school, then I just thought, okay, if I'm gonna be working more full-time, should I be doing something that's more challenging?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: And therefore also probably um the remuneration is is gonna be more substantial.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: So that if I do need wraparound care, then I can pay for it.
• 13:53
  unknown: Yeah.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes women don't like to admit that money matters really.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it does matter when choosing a job.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, how important was um earning potential for you when you were looking for work?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it was like, I mean, it was broadly a decider.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: I if it, you know, I was crunching numbers on every single job ad I was looking at.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, okay, does it involve me commuting into London?
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: Will I have to pay a five grand uh ticket?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Does it involve me having to pay for wraparound care in the morning and the evening or just you know, everything?
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: I I I literally did the math, so I had a really good benchmark of yeah, you know, what what the profit you know would be for me moving job versus staying.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: And um, yeah, no, it was it was yeah, that wouldn't didn't make any sense to move jobs if I wasn't if it wasn't gonna be financially beneficial.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: And did you quit your job before you found a new one?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, I was looking for work because as I said, there was the potential of development, so it seemed a bit um like you know a little bit uh premature to to quit before I had actually found something else.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: So when you saw the project manager role advertised a complete projects, um what made you think actually I could do this?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Were there any moments you nearly talked yourself out of applying?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um well, it was a very quick turnaround application.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think the deadline was quite um short, so there wasn't a lot of time for reflection.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: Couldn't talk yourself out, you didn't have time to talk yourself out of it.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I mean, like I I knew that I could do the like project man management like aspects of it, but I, you know, there was there's on this specific job, there was quite a lot of sector stuff that I wasn't a hundred percent confident I, you know, I knew I met some of it, but um I'd been following, you know, people like you uh who are like, oh, you know, you're supposed to apply even if you're only hitting sort of 60%, 70%.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I was just like, well, you know, what's the harm in applying?
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I went for it and good, right?
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: And you got it.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: So what was the recruitment process like from your side, and what helped you feel that Complete Projects was an employer where you could genuinely make the role work around your life?
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um they were they were so positive from the start and so flexible and welcoming.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think I I keep on saying I'm like, I kept during the process, I kept on turning to my partner and just being like, am I misreading this?
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: Is it too good to be true?
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: It really did feel like it really did feel like I was sort of seeing the dream, the dream job.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, so no, it they were brilliant.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um it was quite intensive.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: There was, I think, four, maybe five Teams interviews in a very short space of time.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because as I said, it was quite um a quick turnaround um recruitment.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, every single one of the interviews, like the people on the other side of the screen were so lovely.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh so yeah, no, I felt it felt very positive.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then they they were offering broadly complete flexibility in terms of my hours, and you know, it's it's 99% work from home, which um yeah, as I said, if I could have written a job spec, this would have been it.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: It makes such a difference.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: I work from home as well, and I get what you say about when you go into the office and you meet people and you're with people and they all become you all become pals, but I think once you become a parent, it's just too tricky, and something has to give.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and often, you know, if it is the commute, I know that helps so many people.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: But it's it's it's a massive difference.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like when I was working uh before, my commute was what, 45 minutes each way?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's an hour and a half.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: I always say this like you know, the the days when my children no longer need me to do the bath and the settle, I'll have another three hours in my day.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so an extra hour and a half of not commuting, that's that's huge in terms of my day plan.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's an hour and a half that a lot of parents, particularly mums, just don't have.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, how did it feel getting the job offer after such a long and quite varied journey back to your old career?
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, again, I mean, I was, as I said, like if I could have written the spec, it would have been yes.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I was so excited and so happy.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Still not quite believing it in that sense.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like I was like, is this is this real?
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Am I gonna be happy, very excited?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, then I realised I'd had to give my notice, which was a little bit awkward.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just because your kids are at the school.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'll see you next week.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um but you've been there now, haven't you?
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: A couple of weeks, a couple of months, not a couple of weeks, a couple of months.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Has the job lived up to what you were hoping it would be?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: So far, like as I said, I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um so far, my my boss has been brilliant.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: I've got you know a couple of people um above me, and they've all been so flexible and welcoming and so positive.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I was saying to saying the other day to my friend, I was like, I don't know if this is normal, but like I just keep on getting like really positive feelings every time I walk in, and everyone's like, Oh yeah, that's brilliant, that's great.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: So it's you know, it it feels I don't know, they're just they're just worried that I'm too nervous or something.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's nice to be put somewhere where you feel valued.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, lot of workplaces don't do that, but it makes such a difference.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I know you were obviously applying for all.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: You thought I only maybe you know tick 60% of the box or 70%.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: What has surprised you about yourself since returning back into that ball?
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think that actually I know a lot more than I think I know.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: I I you haven't forgotten.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and then my brain still works.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um so um it's and it's been quite enjoyable to be able to sort of problem solve and find solutions that don't just involve like how are we gonna get this like storage solution sword in the playroom, you know, where you know, I feel like I'm actually sort of helping the company and doing something positive, which yeah, it it kind of gives you an identity outside of just being mum.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I think that that that that's been quite positive.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think there has been a difference, like my confidence is greater than it was a year ago.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Not that I particularly noticed that I was not confident, like I just feel like there's there's more to me.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think I was talking to one of my friends um a few years ago, so before I got back into work, and I made a reference to one of our mutual friends who has, you know, some ridiculously good job title and is working super hard.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I made a little gag about like, oh, it's so amazing how incredible all these women who didn't stop working are now, and you know, at some level I just thought that's that's not who I am anymore.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of nice to come back to being able to kind of have something other than being mum.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, now you're back.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: How do you look back on your career break?
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think I'm so happy that I did it.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, whilst I was on the career break and sort of looking back at work, there were points when I was like, maybe I shouldn't have done it, maybe I should have gone back to work.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: But I am so, so happy.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, my relation, and I'm sure like lots of full time working mums have brilliant relationships with their kids, but my You know, my relationship with my kids is so positive.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I do feel that like me being there, just you know, hearing, you know, all the return from school thing every day and stuff like that has helped.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: And my kids aren't they aren't the ones that like like tell you everything after school, like you just get little snippets.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think they're all like that, to be honest.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've got some friends where like their kids, they literally know every single detail of what happened in their day.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: And at best, I get oh, I had chicken for lunch, you know?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: So being able to really like spend that time over the course of the preschool period to like get the little drip feeds of information to pick up on stuff, and also just being able to manage all the after school clubs, because like I mean, I don't I I I genuinely don't know how working couples where both parents are working full-time in an office manage it because yeah, it's tricky.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: My daughter, she does gymnastics, she does it four times a week, which is a pain.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but two of those are after school, and you know, I've got a bean getter there for four exactly.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: And if I had traditional, I just couldn't do it.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, and that's like the the juggle.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I can't imagine, you know, like one of my kids is uh in a local swim club and is doing well and he's hitting targets for like you know, regional competitions and stuff like that, and he wouldn't be at that level if I hadn't been able to get him there, yeah, practices a week, and you know, it's something for him that I wouldn't have been able to give if I had been working full-time.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: So um, and we also don't live, although I've got very supportive parents and parents in law, we don't live that close to anyone, so it's not like I could have them doing the school pickup or anything like that.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's on me, which is why the financial side matters, because you know, I know that's on me.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, how do you how do you manage it?
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: Are you go approaching full are you going up to full-time hours then with complete projects?
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: So the plan is I'm gonna not quite full-time, they're again being super uh super flexible.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: So they've said um, I mean they they've said that I don't have to do it yet, but um uh I'll I'll be going up to sort of 32, so not right, yeah, nice.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: What will that working pattern look like then for you?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: Are you gonna is it school hours or yeah, essentially school hours?
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um my other half works from home two days a week, so I can do sort of you know 8 a.m.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: starts to be able to like knock the hours up and then um three days a week actually I can do an 8 a.m.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: start because um I've got family support um on the two uh one day a week where my parents will do collection and then drop off the next day.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, no, it's quite good.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think there's an assumption that mothers want the fewest hours possible?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, some women do want more hours if the role pay and flexibility makes sense.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I would have people just assume it's it's like the mums' WhatsApps, you know, they just assume that it's the mum that's gonna do it.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no, I can't stand those WhatsApp groups.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: You can imagine with four kids the number of them.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's non-stop.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, there is, I think, the there's still the broad assumption that the mums are gonna be the and you know, in our family it was the case because my partner like out-earned me substantially.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it was always gonna be that I was gonna be the primary caregiver, which means that you're the one that's gonna be dealing with the WhatsApp group, but dealing with the collection drop-off, which again reduces your hour capacity, um, unless all your kids are gonna be in like wraparound, but especially when they're very young, like the sort of four-year-olds, it's it's hard thinking, oh, I'm gonna put you in for a 10-hour day.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: So we don't work a 10-hour day.
• 26:57
  unknown: No, exactly.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I've ever worked.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, uh I probably did when I was in my twenties, but yeah, yeah.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: So if someone's listening to this who's been out of the workplace for five, eight, ten years and thinks no one is gonna want me now, what would you say to her?
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: I would 100% say that you are capable of more than you think you are.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think it's very easy to get lost in uh, you know, oh, I can manage the kids' schedules, but I can't remember how to, you know, work an Excel spreadsheet or whatever.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it comes back.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: It is genuinely like riding a bike.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the first few weeks are scary, but I think believing in your skills that you developed previously and you know, yeah, the skills that you've developed from having kids, because you know, juggling multiple, multiple calendars, stuff like that, it's it's a lot harder work than people think it is.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, just keeping the ongoing tally of what needs to go uh into the grocery shop or anything like that, just having all of that like logged in your head or however you manage it, those are skills that are really, really useful for the workplace.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, what would you tell women about looking beyond job titles and thinking instead about the skills they've accumulated across different parts of their lives?
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think it is tricky to do because it is quite hard to consider how you could fit into um certain roles.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: I relied heavily on Gemini.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I was like, here's my CV.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: Do I fit this job?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, yeah, of course you do.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's like your wing wing woman, in it.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, relentlessly positive.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um but um I think that also helps boost it because you you it picks up skills that you might not necessarily have thought you had.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I also had really supportive friend network who were like, no, no, you're forgetting you've got all these skills and all these skills.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, that helped as well.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: Nice.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think you underestimated yourself at any point during your return to work journey?
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, definitely.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I didn't, I I didn't think I'd get the school job, which, you know, given how high I had got in my previous career, I I would have been, you know, it would be surprising that I wouldn't be able to do an assistance job.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I didn't, I I just thought just not having not having the teens skills, all of those things that you know, I wasn't using it on a daily basis.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought I was like, oh gosh, I'm not gonna be able to do any of it.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I think definitely, I mean, I think that's why I took the baby step of going to the school and then now coming into something a bit more, a bit more corporate, because I didn't have that confidence, and I think that was a lot of the decision making, you know.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: I was applying a lot of it was applying for like assistant type roles, yeah.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: And um, my friends and uh family were like, but you've worked at such a high level.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you sort of yeah, underselling yourself?
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so definitely, yeah.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think everyone does that.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: If you could speak to yourself at the beginning of your tenure career, knowing what you know now, what would you tell yourself?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: At the beginning of my career.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we're talking pre pre-family.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, pre-family, yeah.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: Ooh, I think that's a really big ask because I feel like I wouldn't be where I am now without everything that's happened in that career.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: And there was stuff, you know, there was job opportunities then that I didn't take or stuff like that.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: But again, during my break, I was like, oh, if I'd done that, maybe I'd have more time for working available to me.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: But I wouldn't be in the position I am now without everything going exactly as it did.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so um probably don't stay out till 3 a.m.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: as a 20-year-old.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think yeah.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know what?
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think I'm looking back, I made some mistakes in my 20s with my career, but actually I'm pleased I made them then.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: Rather than now in my 40s, because yeah, I think some I think we all make mistakes in our career and we think, oh, there were things we didn't take and things we didn't do, and maybe now, you know, I wouldn't I wouldn't make that decision, but actually I'm pleased I made it then.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, no, definitely.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: I agree with that.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I definitely sort of did some stupid like yeah things career-wise, but it's worked out.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: So finally, what does successful career look like for you now?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, has your definition changed since having children?
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think I am happy doing a good job and an interesting job.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, when I was in my 20s, I was so keen to climb up the ladder and sort of be the person at the top and stuff like that.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: But now I'm I'm happy having a job that's interesting, where I'm valued, and you know, that's flexible.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't, you know, I'm not like, oh, I have to be at the top of the company now.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm happy, you know.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, I want to progress and you know, you know, develop, but it's not the be-all and end all, whereas before I would, you know, I would worry about whether I was making enough progress.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, nice.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you so much for joining me today.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: I've really enjoyed our conversation.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: I know that it all have helped a lot of people that have listened to this and maybe feeling a bit nervous about returning to work after a career break.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I'm so pleased you are enjoying the job.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so pleased you found the job through us and you're enjoying the drum, and it's everything um you hoped it would be.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: I wish you every continued success in the role.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: If people want to connect with you on LinkedIn, are you happy if we pop your LinkedIn profile link in the show notes?
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you so much, Ellie, for joining us today.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: Really do appreciate your time.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: No worries.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Liz.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to another episode of the Work It Like a Mum podcast.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review, and subscribe.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: And don't forget to share the link with a friend.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: If you're on LinkedIn, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willett and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: You can also follow my recruitment site, Investing in Women, on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time, keep on chasing your big stream.