Latest / The Observatory | Discovery of Consciousness & Awareness / Psychedelic Therapy Methods | Dr. Reid Robison on Ketamine, MDMA, Psilocybin & Mental Health

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Psychedelic Therapy Methods | Dr. Reid Robison on Ketamine, MDMA, Psilocybin & Mental Health · The Observatory | Discovery of Consciousness & Awareness

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Observatory Podcast.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: With your hosts Scott and Lorey Wright.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Join us each week as we explore living life from
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: the inside out.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: Today on the Observatory Podcast, we welcome doctor Reed Robinson,
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: who is the chief clinical officer for Numinus and also
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: has several local clinics known as Cedar Psychiatry.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: We are so excited to have him here. He has
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: his own podcast, he has an Instagram, and he talks
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: about this subject that great depth there and we're going
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: to take him deep today. So come and join us
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: as we talk about the world of psychedelic therapy, how
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: music is important in what we do, and how it
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: is really having a powerful effect in the lives of
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: people that are dealing with such difficult things as anxiety, stress, PTSD,
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: suicidal thoughts, all sorts of different things that are widespread today.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Hopefully this will be something that can help those who
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: are struggling.
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: Yes, I love that this is ancient medicine for today's problems.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: Yes, we welcome doctor Reed Robison. Welcome back to the
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: Observatory Podcast. We are Ray and I Low Ray. I
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: call her Ray. I'm I'm gonna call you Ray.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: A lot, you know that's fine. I think that's perfect.
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: But her name's lo Ray. She's my Ray of Sunshine.
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: Yes, I like to call her.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: But we're joined today by Reid Robinson from Cedar Psychiatry.
• 1:41
  Speaker 4: Hi read Hi, thanks for having me.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: It's great to have you here.
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: Good to be here.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: We met a few years back. We were at a
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: Mastermind event together and then we also rubbed shoulders at
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: the Scepter convention that they had here in Salt Lake,
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: which was pretty amazing the number of people that attended
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: that what is Sceptor? Maybe just explain what that is
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: if you don't mind.
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  Speaker 3: So.
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  Speaker 4: I remember meeting a psychologist friend colleague at a dinner
• 2:11
  Speaker 4: party a little while before that, Parth Gandhi, and we
• 2:16
  Speaker 4: had this idea that just came up during dinner about
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: the community waiting to happen in Utah around psychedelics. There
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: wasn't to my knowledge, another psychedelic gathering that had happened before,
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  Speaker 4: so we decided to go for it. We made a
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  Speaker 4: nonprofit called Scepter for the goal of doing this conference
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  Speaker 4: and some other activities around raising awareness, education training, and
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: we were not conference organizers, had no idea what we
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: were doing with zero budget to start with, and it
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  Speaker 4: was really inspiring what happened in terms of the five
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  Speaker 4: hundred people who showed up and the sponsor supporting it
• 3:01
  Speaker 4: in its first year Sight Unseen. I think about that
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: event and the energy around it a lot.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, I remember MAPS was involved, they got on board,
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  Speaker 2: and then you had some great guests that came from
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: Harvard and from all across the country.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: The day after this, we call it the Inner Mountain
• 3:23
  Speaker 4: Psychedelics Conference or the Scepter Convention, like you mentioned, the
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: day after MAPS did their Zendo harm reduction training downtown
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  Speaker 4: Salt Lake. That happened to be their biggest ever event
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  Speaker 4: of that kind, the most attended, which was another great
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  Speaker 4: kind of high five for Utah.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's great.
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  Speaker 1: Pretty amazing. I think, you know, we're throwing out a
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: lot of acronyms here, so not knowing how many people
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  Speaker 1: are going to know what those media. Let's kind of
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: start at the beginning. You know, we're here to talk
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: about lots of different things. But the the research that's
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: being done into the benefits of using psychedelics for therapy,
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  Speaker 1: for PTSD, for anxiety depression, dession, all of these things
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  Speaker 1: that you know, we're looking at new ways of approaching
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: these old problems that are beyond what SSR eyes and
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: different different things have done, rather than the way I
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  Speaker 1: like to say, those kind of numb the feelings, whereas
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: the introduction into plant medicine helps us to process the
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: feelings instead of down because if we don't process them,
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  Speaker 1: they just they can't be dealt with. Would you agree
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  Speaker 1: with that?
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  Speaker 3: Yes?
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  Speaker 4: And what's interesting about the quest to find new ways
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  Speaker 4: of approaching these age old problems is we've actually landed
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  Speaker 4: on old, forgotten, banished ways of healing and growing and
• 4:52
  Speaker 4: cultivating awareness that we're unfortunately gone for a while, but
• 4:59
  Speaker 4: now are coming back at a much needed time.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's ancient technology. Yep, it really is. Have you
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: had a chance to read the book The.
• 5:08
  Speaker 4: What's it called The Immortality Key?
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: The Immortality Key. Yeah, that's a good one, a great book.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, I highly recommend it.
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  Speaker 2: So tell us a little bit then about your practice
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  Speaker 2: and what you're doing, perhaps give us kind of a
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  Speaker 2: big picture of view, and then we'll dive a little
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  Speaker 2: deeper into certain areas. But how are you incorporating this
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: type of medicine in your daily practice with your patients?
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  Speaker 2: And those you see.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, so it might help to give a little backstory
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  Speaker 4: of how I got into this is. I'm a psychiatrist
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  Speaker 4: trained here in Utah med School residency at the University
• 5:44
  Speaker 4: of Utah, and at the beginning of my career, I
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: decided to focus on finding new and improved treatments for
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: mental health conditions, especially those where what we have available
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  Speaker 4: isn't that great. There's some serious conditions where we don't
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: have good medicines, for example, or good therapies for that matter.
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  Speaker 4: So I started doing clinical trials. I was getting a
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: little bit discouraged. Then I came across ketamine, and we
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  Speaker 4: can dive into that as much as you'd like, but
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  Speaker 4: ketamine kind of led me down this beautiful rabbit hole
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  Speaker 4: of exploring psychedelic medicines for mental health conditions, where I
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  Speaker 4: went to the jungle and back in search of new treatments,
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  Speaker 4: finding ayahuasca, and then since then working here in the
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: US on clinical research studies with MDMA psilocybin, and last
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  Speaker 4: week we even kicked off an LSD study for anxiety
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  Speaker 4: in our Draper clinic.
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  Speaker 2: Well, that's so fascinating to know that that's happening here
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  Speaker 2: in Utah. We see the studies that are coming out
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  Speaker 2: of like Johns Hopkins and Stamford, and so are those
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: studies linked or how is Utah all of a sudden
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  Speaker 2: involved in studies? How did it find its way here
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  Speaker 2: to you and to Utah.
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: You know, Utah has always been a great place to
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: do research because you have this very this like this
• 7:08
  Speaker 4: very open community towards contributing to research in that way.
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: And so there have been a lot of discoveries made here,
• 7:18
  Speaker 4: like breast cancer genes and other things like that. So, yes,
• 7:24
  Speaker 4: the studies started at Johns Hopkins and other places in
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: this modern psychedelic renaissance, but now we're doing them here
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  Speaker 4: as well to help with the path towards FDA approval
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  Speaker 4: of these as new treatments, which will probably start with
• 7:41
  Speaker 4: MDMA for PTSD that I would guess will likely be
• 7:45
  Speaker 4: approved next year, and then psilocybin in the next couple
• 7:49
  Speaker 4: of years for depression.
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: That's so fascinating.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I've I've kind of tried to look
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: at history. I'm a late baby boomer, as Ray is,
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: I was born in sixty one. Cool, so neither one
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: of us were really in the hippie generation so much,
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: but we got to kind of observe the hippie generation
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: and see what that that what came of that, and
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: the war on drugs and all of those things we
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: got to witness, and you know, looking back on it,
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: it was sex, drugs, rock and roll back in the
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: sixties and seventies, and things kind of got a little
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  Speaker 1: bit out of balance with the use of these kinds
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  Speaker 1: of things.
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  Speaker 3: Is you know, we're.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: Humans, and so this is this is what we do.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: It's fun, So this is what we're gonna do. So
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: maybe just speak to how what the difference is of
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: how things are being used now as opposed to the
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: way they were then.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, and back then, I like to remember the cultural
• 8:49
  Speaker 4: climate at the time.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: Post World War Two.
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, where World War Two created this culture of
• 8:58
  Speaker 4: emotional avoidance. Understandably, if you were sent off to war,
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: you had to self regulate like you've never had to
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  Speaker 4: do before and squash those emotions when you're sitting in
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  Speaker 4: a trench and facing such atrocities. But then when Vietnam
• 9:15
  Speaker 4: War came along, they were drafting people based on their birthdays.
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  Speaker 4: You had this counterculture movement, like you said, of the
• 9:24
  Speaker 4: hippie generation, saying make like drop acid not bombs, make
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: love not war. And yeah, it did get out of hand,
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: and you can see why there was this strong protest
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: to I guess the status quo or the political climate,
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: and unfortunately that ended in this complete ban of psychedelic
• 9:50
  Speaker 4: medicines for both clinical and research purposes. They were on
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: a good trajectory and getting enthusiastically consumed in other settings too.
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  Speaker 1: There was even studies being done by the government with
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: the different psychedelics to be used for good purposes.
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  Speaker 4: And in the nineteen fifties, the laboratory where Albert Hoffman
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  Speaker 4: discovered synthesized LSD sandos, they started mailing it freely to
• 10:19
  Speaker 4: psychiatrists across the US and Canada, saying, use this in therapy.
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: It appears to be very interesting. And you had celebrities
• 10:27
  Speaker 4: like Carry Grant using it, the Beatles taking a liking
• 10:32
  Speaker 4: to it. Even Bill Wilson, the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous,
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: credited his sobriety to LSD. At the time. Wanted to
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: get that more publicly known, but the board wouldn't have it.
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: It just was not the time back then.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, that enlightenment experience that he described was an LSD experience,
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: it seems to be.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And I remember when I went through twelve step programs
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  Speaker 1: and being one of the ones that it was the
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  Speaker 1: father of them all, and read books about Bill Wilson
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  Speaker 1: that just never really got mentioned. It was kind of
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  Speaker 1: lost over.
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  Speaker 3: So it's true.
• 11:09
  Speaker 4: And just before that time you had the great thinkers
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: and psychology pioneers like Carl Jung, for example, saying, you know,
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: these conditions are hard to treat. If only we could occasion,
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  Speaker 4: like a mystical or spiritual experience to get someone out
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  Speaker 4: of themselves and see this with new perspective, see where
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: they're stuck. That would be transformative. And he said things
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  Speaker 4: like that just before this first wave of the psychedelic
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  Speaker 4: renaissance came along in the fifties sixties.
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  Speaker 1: So what would you say to the people that say,
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: or might might believe or have in their thinking that
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  Speaker 1: this is some kind of chemical reaction in your brain
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: and it's that's all it is, is a chemical reaction.
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  Speaker 1: There's no connection to this divine source or your real
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  Speaker 1: true self or any of that. What would you say
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  Speaker 1: to that? I mean, you've had the experience. So you've
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: been to the jungle. I've been to the jungle too, Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: tell us about that.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, first I'd say I understand the fear, like
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  Speaker 4: I grew up with the this is your brain on
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  Speaker 4: drugs campaigns as well. And I'd also say that, yes,
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: these medicines do via chemical reaction, occasion that kind of
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  Speaker 4: experience in your brain. But that's how our brains work.
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  Speaker 4: We are having chemical reactions right now, as we speak,
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  Speaker 4: as we imagine things, as we think, as we feel.
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  Speaker 4: That is how our brains work. And unfortunately, in today's world,
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: today's society, we accumulate as we grow up these self
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  Speaker 4: limiting beliefs, these core unconscious beliefs and patterns that constrain
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: how we think, how we believe. And well, it's not
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: the only way to open up our minds. Again, Psychedelics
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: have proven to be a really effective way of doing that,
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: especially when an individual is really stuck in an inability
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: to see themselves clearly and see what they're stuck in.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: Now, when you say stuck, so there's a lot of
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: ways people can be stuck, But in your experience, what
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: are some of the most common ways people get stuck
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: that are most limiting Because we can think like, oh,
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: they get stuck in the experience of war. They get
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: stuck in the experience of you know, a really traumatic event.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: But we have a lot of just day to day
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: things that can make us get stuck.
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and I like to look for the common thread
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: across all those ways we get stuck, Like if you
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: take time out of the equation, depression doesn't become just
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: ruminating about the past as much, and the anxiety doesn't
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: become as much about worrying about the future. It becomes
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: thought pattern loop that we're stuck in. Addiction, doing the
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: same thing over and over, perhaps to numb out pain,
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: for example, becomes the same kind of stuck pattern. And
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: eating disorder we get stuck in that same pattern, whether
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: it's over consuming in like a binge eating or a
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: restricting not letting yourself eat and trauma. You can get
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: stuck in this fight or flight place of something terrible
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: that happened at the time when you didn't have the
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: resources to process it and had to file it away
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: in kind of a stuck place.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, It's fascinating because we often see or meet people
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: that have events that happened very early in childhood that
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: planted that sea of getting stuck that send a message
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: very clearly, like either I'm not loved or I'm not enough,
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: or a pattern that then they through the rest of
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: their experiences they kind of build on that initial experience,
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: and so that stuck part can be something that's been
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: with us, like you said, unconsciously for a long time.
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the really hard part is often beneath the surface,
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: out of our conscious awareness, we all have this dialogue
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: going on in our minds and there, what do people say,
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: they are like ninety thousand thoughts we're having each day,
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: and only a small percentage of them really that we're
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: conscious of. But they can be recurring, self limiting, negative
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: beliefs that are hard to even shine a light on
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: sometimes let alone change. I mean, I think awareness is
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: the first step or the greatest change agent. So when
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: you can see them, then you can have that realization
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: and start to do the work on releasing those Yeah.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I you know, there's there's something that I say.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: One of the reasons we called this podcast the Observatory
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: because it's about being able to observe yourself, So I
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: call it you observing you being you. I love that
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: being able to see yourself and in all the different
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: ways that you show up. You're the hardest person for
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: you to know. But plant medicines and different types of
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: therapies that include those, it's like, I don't know, it's
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: it's really hard to explain it because it's it's an
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: ineffable experience, but it really does. It's like a it's
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: like a brain reset to be able to see a
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: new perspective and experience it in a new way where
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: you can let those things kind of dissipate and be
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: present with what's happening.
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I love that. And I've got to say that
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: has been the greatest thing, single greatest thing that psychedelic medicines,
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: plant medicines have given to me in my experience with them,
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: and what I've observed with so many others is awareness.
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: Just being able to see myself more clearly, and that
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: allows me to slip into that observer state and now
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: when things come along, they don't derail me like they
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: used to, where I don't get stuck in the same
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: patterns as much because I can observe, like you said,
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: sit with and then more consciously act.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I don't want to act like as we're
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: talking here that psychedelics are the answer right, because there's
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: so many different ways of coming to that same space
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: that don't require that. For some people they need the
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: power of that to get to that space, but for others,
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: you know, maybe meditation, it may be breath work. There's
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: just so many other modalities or opportunities to get to
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: that same kind of space. So we don't want to
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: say that this is the one and only way. And
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: so some people don't need any of that. They're just
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: kind of naturally in that space.
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: And in the way I use the word psychedelic, the
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: medicine doesn't even have to be part of it. The
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: word psychedelic means to wander in the mind and anything
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: that helps you get into that place of awareness and
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: wandering around in your inner world and scene with new eyes,
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: whether it's breath work, whether it's a dedicated deep meditation
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: practice that can get you into that same psychedelic state.
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: Like you said, some people, especially when there's been a
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: lot of trauma, for example, it might have always been
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: too overwhelming to go there, or when the patterns are
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: so deeply ingred. Sometimes psychedelic medicines do present like this
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: really important step in the journey to open the door
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: to that to be able to do deeper and deeper work.
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: But it's certainly not for everyone not to be taken
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: lightly and not the only path up the mountain.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: Ray mentioned as we were kind of preparing for this
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: that this chart that you shared when we were at
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: the ES at the go ahead and talk about that.
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: Huh.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: Well, I remember a presentation that you gave you shared
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: with the audience. I called it a harm chart, So
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: I'm sure if that's what you called it, but in
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: my mind that's what I've labeled and shared, and it
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: showed it had a great list of all types of
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: medicines that are in our natural living life today, so
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: whether those are antidepressants or you know, medicines to help
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: us focus. And I believe on the one extreme had
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: alcohol had the most harm, and then on the other
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: extreme with the least harm. I was very surprised to
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: see psilocybin, so it planned a curiosity in me. And
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: as you talked about it, I just I have shared
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: that chart, especially with people who struggle with alcohol, to
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: understand the harm because the harm, well, I'll let you
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: talk about it. The harm comes in many ways.
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And so no medicine is without risk. I think
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: it's an important thing to highlight. But these medicines have
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: been kind of unfortunately, kind of excessively blamed for potential harm.
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: And that chart comes from a really important study that
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: a researcher by the name of David Nutt did in
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: the UK. He was like overall drug policy and did
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: this survey, this really elegant, powerful study plotting all the
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: types of harm and across all the drugs of abuse,
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: legal and illegal, and psychedelic medicines did land on the
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: side of extremely safe in comparison to other things we use,
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: like you mentioned, even the legal things like alcohol responsible
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: for so many, so many accidents, deaths, domestic violence, you know,
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: health problems, things like that.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: And not really addictive. I mean, I don't know anyone
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: that is a friend of mine or people that I've
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: known that I've talked about that say hey, I want
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: to do this every day. It's just not that way.
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah, they can be much more anti addictive when used
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: in the right context, like paired with the right therapy,
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: the right set and setting, they can be powerful therapy
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: accelerators in recovering from addiction and other things. But yeah,
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: like you said, they're not something. They're not medicines that
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: people seek out like they do other things like cocaine
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: with its dope, meine surge, or opiates where there's a
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: kind of a numbing or a checking out or you know,
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: a blissful state people seek that can be so harmful
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: across many areas of their lives.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that chart was really fascinating. I remember because I
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: saw adderall. I saw a lot that people feel are
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: just fine because a doctor prescribes them, and there's a
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: belief that well, my doctor would never prescribe something to
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: me that is unsafe, and yet here were a lot
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: of pharmaceuticals that are prescribed every day on this chart
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: that I was that I saw the amount of harm
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: that could come.
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: It's something that has, I guess troubled me since the
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: beginning of my career in psychiatry is that sometimes the
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: medicines we use, say it's like a Trenk equalizer for
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: sleep or anxiety, that people can become physiologically hooked on accidentally,
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: just like you can on pain pills after a surgery,
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: and then you had these I noticed these other treatments
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: in psychiatry where it was just kind of a band
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: aid approach to symptoms rather than going for the underlying cause.
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: So when I stumbled upon this other way of diving
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: deep inside yourself using these things that aren't a daily pill,
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: it's a journey with preparation before, integration after, and then
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: coming out and doing the work. I was all in
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: on trying to bring that more and more into our
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: everyday healthcare system.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, tell us a little bit about was there anything
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: in your personal life that made you more drawn to
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: this or was it really your curiosity in terms of
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: just the practice and seeing what had been done and
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: what you felt could be a different answer.
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: You know there, Like I mentioned, psychedelic medicines have brought
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: me a lot personally in terms of my own journey
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: of kind of healing and growth and awareness. But even
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: in my family, my grandmother Barbara died of alcoholism, and
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: we were so close and she was such a key
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: person in my life that when I was at the
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: University of Utah early in my career, I even started
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: a free clinic named after her, the Polisi Clinic, which
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: was her last name, trying to bring mental health treatments
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: to more people who were struggling. And when I think
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: about the history of say psychedelics. We were talking about
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: LSD when it was freely sent around in the fifties,
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: sixties and and studied over thousands of people in the
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: US and Canada in clinical trials. They were already seen
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: back then that it was nearly three times better than
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: any alcoholism treatment. Like in alcoholism, you can take this
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: pill called ant abuse that'll just make you throw up
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: if you take the pill, and you have to remember
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: to take the pill. That's the big hard part. It's
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: just kind of a crutch that's helpful for some. I
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: don't want to diminish that. But when you had LSD
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: plus therapy three times better for a condition where like
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: one hundred million people have died of alcoholism, including my grandmother.
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: I think of if those medicines had not gone away
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: for decades, how many lives could we have saved. Yeah,
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: it gets really personal.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I can hear that. I can understand that.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so let me this isn't really switching gears. But
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: I think people are interested in knowing the process because
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: right now, ketamine really is the only thing that's that's
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: legally being able to be used in a therapy setting
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: in at least in this state and tell me if
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: I'm wrong about that. But you know the process of
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: what that entails, and how someone would access that, what
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: they could do to be involved in that, and who
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: it's for.
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: And that's that's true that in terms of psychedelic medicines,
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: ketamine is the main legal psychedelic outside of research studies.
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: So here and what is ketymine?
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so ketamine is now being classified more and more
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: as a psychedelic because it does fit that definition of
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: creating an altered state of consciousness with therapeutic potential. And
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: even though it started out as an anesthetic discovered decades
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: ago and used on millions of people going in for
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: procedure surgery, that's the first time I ever gave it.
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: It was when I was in my medical training and
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: the primary children's hospital er. We would give it to
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: kids before they'd get sutures so they could hold still.
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: And so when it came along in psychiatry, there was
• 27:14
  Speaker 4: just this accidental discovery that people coming out of ketamine
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: doses appeared to be less depressed, and so a clinical
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: trial was done with like astounding results seventy percent had
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: relief from depression. And so another study replicated that, and
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: then we all start to started to get really interested
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: in it. I think my first clinical trial with ketamine
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: was back in about twenty ten, and that was when
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: we were really just looking at the medicine like what
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: it could do alone. And now more and more we're
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: just pairing it with therapy targeted at these different important conditions.
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: And yes, you can come in and access ketamine, ketemine
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: assistant psychotherapy for a variety of conditions, and psychedelic medicines
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: are here in Utah via research studies like we just
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: did a psilocybin study for depression and last week we
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: opened up like I mentioned, an LSD study for generalized
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: anxiety and other medicines coming soon. So you can participate
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: in way in either way, like if you qualify for
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: a study, those can be legally accessed, or you can
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: seek ketamine and therapy through a clinic setting.
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: And the way you qualify for a study is through
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: your doctor. Correct the doctor will refer you to the
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: study that you are conducting or.
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: You know, that's one way, and doctors don't always hear
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: about all the studies. So I think it's an example
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: of in the healthcare system and especially the state of
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: US healthcare. You do have to take the reins yourself
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: in a lot of cases and be open and collaborative
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: with your doctor, for sure. But I think we're or
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: letting go of that old approach of it's only what
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: the doctor gives and we just take it no matter what,
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: like you mentioned about certain drugs and their harm potential.
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: But you can seek out studies on your own, like
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: you know, on our research Clinic website, we list off
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: these studies that are active, whether it's a psychedelic or not,
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: and people can just call in and see if they
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: qualify on the phone, get a quick screening, and then
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: come in for a careful evaluation if it seems like
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: it might fit.
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: That's great to know.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so the process then you come in for a
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: ketemine treatment and is it a series of treatments that
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: people usually do? And what kind of cost is there
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: for something like that? It is just an insurance covered
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: kind of thing.
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So these are great questions and I guess, unfortunately
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: and fortunately there's not one one size fits all answer.
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: It's a very individualized thing and it starts with you know,
• 30:03
  Speaker 4: careful screening, evaluation, treatment planning to see if that medicine,
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: say ketamine, really does make sense for you, and if
• 30:13
  Speaker 4: it does, most people do end up having more than
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: one session, but not always and ideally often it involves
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: some sessions leading up to that to get ready to
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: really start to till the soil and start to dig
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: up the things that you really want to work on,
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: clarify intentions for these dosing sessions or journeys if you will,
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: and then on dosing day you do come in and
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: to clinic and you're supported often with like I shades, headphones, reclined,
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: some music on. You receive the medicine in a very
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: different ways. Keta means like an hour or so journey.
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: There's some processing after, and then you turn for an
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: integration therapy session to really start to weave those insights
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: into day to day life. But on average, the best
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: results with ketymine have been seen when people get say
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: three to six different sessions spread over a number of weeks.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: So there's importance to have integration after each one, a
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: session with a therapist or journaling, some sort of integration
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: to integrate what they've realized, what the awareness that has
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: come to themselves and kind of understanding that.
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, because these medicines open up a window of opportunity
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: not just with awareness, but also with neuroplasticity, like the
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: ability to reshape new patterns and lay down new ones,
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: new conscious, healthy ways of showing up in the world.
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: And if you just open up the window and don't
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: do anything with it, you might come away with some
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: insights and awareness that might be lasting. You might have
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: some relief from say depression or other things for a time,
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: but there's a risk of it just snapping back into place.
• 32:10
  Speaker 4: So ketamine has benefits in both ways as a medicine
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: to lift a cloud of depression for a time, letting
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: you do the work, but also as a psychedelic agent
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: facilitating awareness and that window of opportunity to do the
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: work right.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: Because as you see it and you become more aware,
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: it's like Scott and I are always talking about how
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: thoughts create your reality. Like you said at the beginning,
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: you really start to become aware of limiting beliefs or
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: limiting thoughts self talk, and you start to work on
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: just small changes in patterns or behaviors or habits to
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: start that on the outside so that it's now working
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: on the inside. In terms of how you think how
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: you immediately react to any you know, external event in
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: your life. You start to create that We call it
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: the space where you have that moment, brief moment to
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: be in choice of well, I can I can react
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: to this differently, I can think about this differently, I
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: can see this differently. My perspective has started to change.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: It's a shift in patterns, right, because the pattern that
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: each of us have our own patterns the way we
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: show up, and they're ingrained in us, taught to us
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: by family, religion, people, friends, whatever, whatever, education, all of
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: the different sources of the of the patterning of our lives.
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: But there has to be this certain point where we
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: realize that we've got to uh change that perspective. It's old,
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: it's we're living in old old news. It's whatever our
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: thinking is. Our thinking is attached to history. With our
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: thinking attached to history, then we're trying to reconcile what
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: happened in this moment of now with something that happened
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: in the past. And what happened in this moment of
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: now may not have anything to do with what I
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: experienced in the past. So it's only when we can
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: come to that space observing it from presence. This is
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: what's actually going on, and that space isn't your mind
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: figuring it out. It's a more of a feeling, is
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: the way we like to describe that. How you say about.
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: That kind of an embodied knowing, But I like to
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: call it a moment of awakening, whether you get there
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: accidentally in your life, or whether you get there in
• 34:36
  Speaker 4: a course of psychedelic therapy during a dosing session with
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: an AHA moment or out of body experience, for example,
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: I first started to touch into that. Speaking of other
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: ways of getting there through meditation, yoga, I also saw
• 34:57
  Speaker 4: as I was teaching those things that it was really
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: hard to in this modern day get people to sit
• 35:06
  Speaker 4: still long enough to go that deep, or to do
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: a practice over enough time with enough diligence to start
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: to unearth those patterns. But that's what I personally discovered
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: long before psychedelics through a very dedicated yoga practice that
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: gave me my first glimpses of that. It was really profound.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I've heard other people say that same thing
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: about yoga and meditation.
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: So I have a question for you. You mentioned that
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: you put on headphones and that you have music. So
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: Scott's a big fan of the whole music process. And
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: you know, I've spent a lot of time thinking about music,
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: like from the time that we're born, how our mothers
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: sing to us as a baby, to sue us, and
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: so talk to us a little bit about the importance
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: of medicine music as medicine and how those very indigenous
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: kind of sounds or the music, the type of music
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: that you use, and why music is a part of
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: the experience.
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: And I love that you said music as medicine because
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: that's a term we'll use at work as well, kind
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: of a mantra or celebrating the power that music has
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: in the process of healing and growth. In fact, just
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: yesterday we announced some music as medicine events coming up
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: when coming to Utah Cedar. The clinics that I started
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: with a business partner are now owned by a company
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: called Numinous, who I work for as their chief clinical officer,
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: and a Numinous teamed up with East Forest to bring
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: these events around and Utah.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: Now, yeah, yeah, we love these Forest Oh my goodness.
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: So I'll be sharing shortly. In fact, even last night
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: I put it on my Instagram story. But more on
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: the Utah event and the other one's coming. But music
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: is medicine. And when I was training in MDMA therapy
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: through Maps, one of my mentors, Bruce Poulter said, music
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: is the wind in the sails of the psychedelic experience.
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: And I've seen that play out in clinic and when
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: I've gone to the jungle and and had these medicine teams.
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: These shamans share not only the medicine, but the healing songs.
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: The chance that music as medicine that really hits a
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: different part of your soul and has a profound effect
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: independent and especially paired with these these therapy accelerator medicines.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the frequency and vibration that they all start to
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: play in harmony with one other, he is really powerful.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: Have you do you know where? Have you heard of
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: or used any of the music by Budengi?
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: I went to his concert in Salt Lake a few
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: months ago.
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: We were there, we didn't see you, okay, yeah.
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: Well and actually that full house, it was a full house.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: That's actually where the first term music is medicine came
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: to me because Perengi did an event, three or four
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: day event that we went to in Sedona. That was
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: music is medicine, and it was all about the music
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: and his you know, his indigenous roots coming from both
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: his the background of his father and his mother Brazilian
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: and Mexican. Mexican, and just how that music is such
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: a such an integral part of who he is.
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: Oh, yeah, it's really beautiful. Yeah, that's amazing. I saw
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: the event that he was doing down there and thought
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: it would be beautiful to go to. That's really neat
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: that you got to go.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: I can't recommend going to that enough. I mean, it
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: really shifted my own experience in music because one of
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: the things that he said initially when he was at
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: a gathering I was out in Arizona, and he would
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: talk about getting out of the way so much, allowing
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: the music to play through you instead of from you.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: When you're trying to create something from your mind, it
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: can be great, but when you try and just when
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: you just get yourself out of the way and allow
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: the music to play through you, it becomes something else.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: It's amazing.
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's hard to even put words around. The first
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: time I ever met PEREGI was I don't know, this
• 39:39
  Speaker 4: is probably six years ago at a yoga studio in Austin, Texas,
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: independent of any psychedelic event whatsoever. I went to this
• 39:50
  Speaker 4: yoga study called Black Swan and there was this guy
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: with dig redoo and all these mysterious instruments around him stuff. Yeah,
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: and a looper mm hm. And he started doing that
• 40:04
  Speaker 4: during the whole class. And when we're laying there in
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: shavasan at the end, like the glorious nap time at
• 40:10
  Speaker 4: the end of yoga, he's walking around blowing this digeridoo
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: while all these other things are looped. It was that
• 40:16
  Speaker 4: was a psychedelic experience without medicine right there, because music
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: was the medicine.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: And that's that's what he does.
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: It's amazing.
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we had that experience at the event we went
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: to in Sodona. We've been to two of his events.
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: We did one in Bouldered, Utah, and then we did
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: the one in Sodona and uh, just off the cuff,
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: they decided one night to do an event where he
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: was going to play live and do a meditation like that.
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: We did breath work and then we did the cool
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: the music and so powerful. There was a couple of
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: moments in it where it felt like there was this
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: sound swirling around and it was with the did WeDo. Again,
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: He's like this did wed master. He's a master of
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: pretty much everything. Yeah, but the did WeDo was pretty amazing.
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: I think the more the deeper you go in this
• 41:02
  Speaker 4: kind of inner journey, the more you start to see
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: the role of music in it and how it touches
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: so many parts of your soul that might have been asleep.
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: And we'll use it after psychedelic therapy, like say there's
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: a special playlist that someone uses during a session, whether
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: we're working with groups or individuals, we'll encourage them to
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: revisit it in their own integration and meditation, to go
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: back to that sacred place and revisit some of those
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: special insights that came up.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: The songs can bring back some of that experience. Yeah,
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: it's beautiful.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: Well, and that's another interesting aspect of Eastern medicine when
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: they talk about the chakras and how there is a
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: note that is flying to each of the chakras. And
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: recently Scott did an album where he recorded music for
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: each of the chakras. And also we've spent some time
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: now diving deeper into soul Faggio frequencies and all of
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: those frequencies that music, you can feel them very differently
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: in your body zeparate from any kind of meta. I mean,
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: they are the medicine that frequency.
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah for sure.
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: Sound healing is such a powerful modality that I'll even
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: bring into clinics sometimes will do sound a sound bath
• 42:22
  Speaker 4: event paired with breathwork or meditation, and it can be
• 42:28
  Speaker 4: really profound.
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: I put a tepee up in my backyard and I've
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: got two other women that come in. Julie Cantrell play
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: singing bowls, and then another woman, Carly comes in and
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: she does bodywork. She's a massage therapist, so she does bodywork. Well,
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: we're doing music. I'm playing all sorts of other instruments
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: while Julie's doing the sound bowls, and it's been pretty cool.
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, amazing. I'll have to catch one of those events.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: I've heard you often quote doctor Groff about the quote
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: that he talks. Can you kind of share that. I
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: love that quote about kind of what medicine is to
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: the mind.
• 43:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So he's this gentle giant of psychedelic medicine. There's
• 43:15
  Speaker 4: a great documentary on him called The Way of the
• 43:17
  Speaker 4: Psychoonoup and he has books called that same title. He's
• 43:22
  Speaker 4: facilitated thousands of sessions with his you know amazing spacey
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: Holes and Brilliant Mind, And he said something like, psychedelics
• 43:34
  Speaker 4: are to the mind what you know, the telescope is
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: to astronomy. And we'll do more for our understanding of
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: neuroscience and how the mind works than anything yet. And
• 43:47
  Speaker 4: I truly believe that as as a psychiatrist and as
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: a clinical researcher a neuroscientist, I'm already I'm already seeing
• 43:59
  Speaker 4: that start to be realized in the research studies that
• 44:03
  Speaker 4: come out about the psychedelic studies with brain imaging or EEG.
• 44:09
  Speaker 4: Brainwave patterns, because you have this limited dosing session or
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: journey where so much happens, and you take away all
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: the distracting, confounding variables of day to day life and
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: we get to witness transformation like awareness and transformation happening
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: in real time. And that's powerful not just for the individual,
• 44:34
  Speaker 4: but how we understand ourselves as a whole and as
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: a society.
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: Right. Yeah, I was.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: I had a brother in law who was really struggling
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: with a terminal illness and I had read where JOHNS.
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: Hopkins was doing again research with the medicine around terminal
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: illness and people who were facing you know that that
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: terminal sort of sentence, if you would call it a sentence,
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: but that notion about what death was and coming to
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: terms with sort of end of life and the beyond
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: for a better word. So I know there's a lot
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: of work that's being done, a very broad spectrum of
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: work that's being done with the medicine.
• 45:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a great example of how it can be
• 45:18
  Speaker 4: used in even a single session to help give someone
• 45:22
  Speaker 4: a completely new perspective. Because one of our core fears
• 45:26
  Speaker 4: as humans is death, the uncertainty around death and dying,
• 45:31
  Speaker 4: and most people, especially in the face of a serious
• 45:36
  Speaker 4: illness like end stage cancer, end of life anxiety can
• 45:43
  Speaker 4: show up in such a troubling way and it prevents
• 45:47
  Speaker 4: the individual from being able to relax and be present
• 45:51
  Speaker 4: for that final chapter of their lives. It can be
• 45:54
  Speaker 4: somewhat of a sacred passage. So when psychedelic medicines have
• 45:59
  Speaker 4: been studied in that context, it's amazing to see psilocybin,
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: for example, in a certain high dose, will reliably give
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: most people in those studies one of the most meaningful
• 46:12
  Speaker 4: and profound experiences of their lives that helps them move
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: towards that sacred passage in a completely new way.
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: And I think that's.
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: Beautiful, fascinating.
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: It really is.
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: And the reason that you know we said earlier that
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: it's ineffable is because each person has that experience in
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: a personal way, and for you to say, well, this
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: is how it is, that that's kind of the way
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: the belief structures of times past have functioned. You know,
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: I've discovered this, so you know you need to come
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: and do it this way where this just opens it
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: up for every person to have their own individual path.
• 46:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, these medicines, I like how you said it because
• 46:53
  Speaker 4: they do open you up to your spirituality. They don't
• 46:57
  Speaker 4: impose a religious belief. I've seen people really deepen their
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: beliefs in pick any religion or spiritual walk of life
• 47:10
  Speaker 4: through these medicines. I'm sure some might make a one
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: to eighty degree turn realizing something about what they really believe.
• 47:18
  Speaker 4: But I've seen so many people reclaim a belief in
• 47:21
  Speaker 4: a higher power through these medicines.
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: It's more real than it is just this thing out there. Yeah,
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: it's not really a belief it's an embodiment of something different.
• 47:35
  Speaker 4: There was a fascinating study done in the early sixties,
• 47:40
  Speaker 4: the marsh Chapel Experiment. It was done by Tim Lary Dick,
• 47:46
  Speaker 4: Alpert Ramdas, and Walter Panke who was like a grad student,
• 47:52
  Speaker 4: and they gave divinity students in the Graduate Theology school
• 47:57
  Speaker 4: in Boston a high dosecil cybon. Ten got psilocybin, ten
• 48:02
  Speaker 4: got placebo, And what they did during the study was
• 48:05
  Speaker 4: they had them listen to a sermon by this eloquent,
• 48:09
  Speaker 4: famous pastor in the basement of the Marsh Chapel. And
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: what was fascinating is like they all saw something different,
• 48:18
  Speaker 4: like choirs of angels singing or whatever. The experience was like.
• 48:22
  Speaker 4: But nine out of ten of the people who got
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: psilocybin went on to become like pastors, and one out
• 48:31
  Speaker 4: of ten who got placebo went on to become pastors
• 48:34
  Speaker 4: through this school. Was just intriguing to me to see
• 48:37
  Speaker 4: what it deepened for them.
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: Right where it took that experience just into their own
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: belief in thinking how it deepened that.
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so I think here's a question I want
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: to ask about the psilocybin research that you were involved
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: in So I think there's people out there that are
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: going to say, so, do you just give them a
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: handful of mushrooms and they eat them? Or what form that?
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: How is that?
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: Now? I know with scientific studies it needs to be
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: in a controlled way. So is it synthesized psilocybin or
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: how hell is that?
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: So far it is synthetic psilocybin that is still like
• 49:16
  Speaker 4: in the studies at Johns Hopkins, like in the ones
• 49:18
  Speaker 4: we're doing, still at this dose bringing about a very
• 49:23
  Speaker 4: strong mystical type experience. But we would love to use
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: naturally derived psilocybin from mushrooms, and that's coming, I believe,
• 49:34
  Speaker 4: even at Numinus. We have a biosciences lab in Canada
• 49:37
  Speaker 4: as working on jumping through the proper hoops for naturally
• 49:44
  Speaker 4: derived psilocybin for research studies. But the FDA likes us
• 49:50
  Speaker 4: in clinical research studies to focus on one thing at
• 49:52
  Speaker 4: a time. Sure, there is this potential entourage effect with
• 49:57
  Speaker 4: the other compounds in say magic mushrooms, they might be
• 50:02
  Speaker 4: beautiful things, but to jump through the right hoops and
• 50:07
  Speaker 4: to get these medicines back on track, we've had to
• 50:11
  Speaker 4: focus the study on So far, synthetic psilocybin, but I
• 50:17
  Speaker 4: don't think that will always be the case. I think
• 50:19
  Speaker 4: that will be the case for the psilocybin that's first
• 50:22
  Speaker 4: approved as a prescribable therapy. So when you come into clinic,
• 50:26
  Speaker 4: you're getting capsules with synthetic psilocybin in it and or
• 50:33
  Speaker 4: la cibo, you know, is how we have to control
• 50:35
  Speaker 4: these experiments.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: Let me ask you one more thing along that line.
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: So is microdosing part of the that therapy or is
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: it just dosing? Is the microdosing to take the place
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: of maybe, you know, your prozacs and those different things
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: out there.
• 50:50
  Speaker 4: We're not doing any microdosing studies right now, and there
• 50:55
  Speaker 4: are very few happening or planned in North America. There
• 51:00
  Speaker 4: are some that have been done recently, really really helpful ones.
• 51:04
  Speaker 4: In Europe. It's harder in our regulatory environment to send
• 51:10
  Speaker 4: someone home with the Schedule one banned substance, right It's
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: hard enough. I had to jump through some huge hoops
• 51:20
  Speaker 4: to get approval to study these medicines. It's called a
• 51:23
  Speaker 4: Schedule one license for each medicine. It took many, many
• 51:26
  Speaker 4: months and mountains of paperwork for each one, and it
• 51:31
  Speaker 4: turned out to be a really collaborative process, with even
• 51:34
  Speaker 4: the local DEA coming to inspect. It feels like we're
• 51:38
  Speaker 4: all in the same team navigating this unfortunate system that
• 51:42
  Speaker 4: was put in place decades ago. But we're getting there,
• 51:46
  Speaker 4: and microdosing is still less understood and there are a
• 51:51
  Speaker 4: lot more variables in the mix. When you're taking a
• 51:54
  Speaker 4: sub perceptual or a low dose and you're taking it
• 51:57
  Speaker 4: home and there's all the other noise of day to
• 52:00
  Speaker 4: day life in the in the equation, including the placebo response,
• 52:05
  Speaker 4: that is a powerful thing in and of itself.
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I can see that.
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: So read tell us a little bit about some of
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: the sort of success stories that you've heard, or some
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: of the things that you have found the most you know,
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: joy in seeing come about because of this medicine, like
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: with the patients you're working or with different clinical things
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: that's happening with the company that you work for in Canada.
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: Just some of those things that inspire you to keep
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: continuing down this path.
• 52:36
  Speaker 4: You know, A couple things come to mind. I love
• 52:40
  Speaker 4: seeing people come in for their first or an early
• 52:45
  Speaker 4: psychedelic journey on their healing path and to see what
• 52:51
  Speaker 4: light bulbs go off. In their mind, their heart as
• 52:55
  Speaker 4: they start to see connect the dots of ways they've
• 53:01
  Speaker 4: been stuck in life, Like they might see their relationship
• 53:06
  Speaker 4: with their parents or family members in a new light
• 53:09
  Speaker 4: and see and be able to rewrite a narrative and
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: release some old, tightly held, self limiting, stuck beliefs of
• 53:23
  Speaker 4: being unlovable or things like that, and then to see
• 53:29
  Speaker 4: what happens from there, like a weight lifted off someone's shoulders,
• 53:35
  Speaker 4: a sense of being free, of being important, of mattering,
• 53:39
  Speaker 4: of being able to give and receive love is just
• 53:44
  Speaker 4: It's the most special thing I can think of to
• 53:48
  Speaker 4: witness that happening. And I've seen it time and time again.
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: And is it across a broad spectrum? I mean, are
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: we talking about you know what age or is it
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: mostly men? Women? You know, teenagers? Kind of what does
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: the spectrum look like in terms of those people that
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: are finding you?
• 54:06
  Speaker 4: You know, I've worked with a variety of these compounds
• 54:11
  Speaker 4: in research and clinical settings, and even gone out of
• 54:15
  Speaker 4: country to jurisdictions where I could work with plant medicines
• 54:21
  Speaker 4: when it was really important for an individual or family.
• 54:24
  Speaker 4: Another another thing I've really loved to do is work
• 54:30
  Speaker 4: with families and groups. Like countless occasions I've had, say
• 54:36
  Speaker 4: parents and like an adult kid or an adolescent with
• 54:41
  Speaker 4: who's struggling with say a serious eating disorder or severe
• 54:44
  Speaker 4: PTSD or something like that, to come in and do
• 54:48
  Speaker 4: the work together. I will give the medicine to parents
• 54:53
  Speaker 4: sometimes who are who are in it with their child,
• 54:58
  Speaker 4: you know, having their own struggle in parallel and feeling
• 55:01
  Speaker 4: the struggles of their child. And to see them bravely
• 55:04
  Speaker 4: go in there together come out and connect on new
• 55:09
  Speaker 4: deep ways soul the soul, opening their emotions to each
• 55:14
  Speaker 4: other and supporting each other new ways is just the
• 55:17
  Speaker 4: most touching thing.
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: Well, because that narrative is really interwoven between all three people,
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: each of them having this shared experience, but all of
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: them having their own experience in that kind of shared event.
• 55:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, a couple's work is another really powerful way to
• 55:38
  Speaker 4: approach this medicine. In fact, when MBMA was legal several
• 55:43
  Speaker 4: decades ago, the therapists who are still around I used
• 55:46
  Speaker 4: to work with it above ground then said they felt
• 55:51
  Speaker 4: like the most amazing therapist when they would just give
• 55:54
  Speaker 4: the medicine, sit there and hold space and watch the
• 55:57
  Speaker 4: magic unfold where people can take down the walls, you know,
• 56:03
  Speaker 4: see through new kind of more loving eyes, cultivate a
• 56:08
  Speaker 4: sense of trust, and move towards each other. What happens
• 56:12
  Speaker 4: after that, after one session, can completely change the course
• 56:17
  Speaker 4: of someone's life. Partnership, family life.
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: Is that something that's available for couples now.
• 56:25
  Speaker 4: It is, unfortunately not yet. The way these things go
• 56:32
  Speaker 4: is it's studied in individuals adults first, Like look at
• 56:36
  Speaker 4: MDMA for example, one of the most powerful medicines, I mean,
• 56:40
  Speaker 4: the most powerful medicine I've seen ever for PTSD and
• 56:44
  Speaker 4: likely to be the first psychedelic approved. There was one
• 56:50
  Speaker 4: study done of couples in Canada where one in the
• 56:55
  Speaker 4: partnership had severe PTSD and the other did not, but
• 56:57
  Speaker 4: still got medicine, And there's a really positive study. But
• 57:01
  Speaker 4: first the approval will come for adults. It'll be studied
• 57:04
  Speaker 4: in like laid adolescents after that, and then looking at
• 57:11
  Speaker 4: other ways of delivering the medicine, like we'll be doing
• 57:15
  Speaker 4: probably next year a group MDMA study here for gender
• 57:20
  Speaker 4: minority trauma. Individuals who have experienced a lot of trauma
• 57:29
  Speaker 4: from who are within the LGBT community and really could
• 57:35
  Speaker 4: use that container with other people who can relate and
• 57:40
  Speaker 4: facilitators who are really working with them as their whole,
• 57:46
  Speaker 4: unique individuals to support and honor the healing process. And
• 57:52
  Speaker 4: that's another one I'm looking forward to. We've done We've
• 57:57
  Speaker 4: done a project recently giving ketamine and group settings to
• 58:00
  Speaker 4: healthcare workers with trauma working in the pandemic. That was
• 58:04
  Speaker 4: super powerful as well.
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: Oh wow, well, I you know, the the amount of
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: suicide that's going on right now, it's just people stuck
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: in their minds in old thinking and old old patterns
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: and the importance of something like this to come out.
• 58:20
  Speaker 3: I love to hear that.
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: You know, there's collaboration with the DEA. Yeah, that's that's
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: amazing that that that kind of thing, the government, the DA.
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: I think hopefully those in the religious world will start
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: to get on board a little bit more with this,
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: that we can't hold it in this dark place when
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: it's bringing truly bringing light into people's lives.
• 58:42
  Speaker 4: I've heard of even bishops in Utah referring clients who
• 58:48
  Speaker 4: are really struggling with in the LDS church. In the
• 58:52
  Speaker 4: LDS Church referring or giving a member of their war
• 59:00
  Speaker 4: in the church permission to go seek a psychedelic medicine
• 59:05
  Speaker 4: session for their healing process, which I found I found
• 59:10
  Speaker 4: like a positive sign. Absolutely.
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: That's awesome of the.
• 59:14
  Speaker 4: World opening up to it, both even inside traditional religions.
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's great to hear in Utah. You know,
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: that's the prevalent belief system that we have here, so
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: that's the one that we get to experience. But I'm
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: sure that that's happening all around the country.
• 59:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah. There was even a Mormon bishop who went and
• 59:35
  Speaker 4: did iawuascat rhythmia and recently talked about it on a
• 59:39
  Speaker 4: Utah podcast that's been widely circulated. That was really neat.
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, tell us a little bit about how people
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: can stay in touch with you. You've got an Instagram channel,
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: a podcast, and what else to give us some of
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: that detail, so that that's out there.
• 59:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you can find me on Instagram at at innerspace.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: Doctor uh inner space doctor, Yeah.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 4: Or read Robison dot com has it all listed. I
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 4: work for Numinous and you am i am us dot
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 4: com if I'm spelling it.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: Right, and read is ri i D So that's a
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: little different as well.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 4: Read and our podcast at work that I do with
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 4: colleague and friend Steve Thayer. He's a psychologist is called
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 4: Psychedelic Therapy frontiers dot com, and we talk about these
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 4: things freely and openly and sometimes with guests, just about
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 4: all things psychedelic and mental health.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: Oh that's great, I.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: Mean, and you said that if you're willing to show this,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: someone actually reported you to the authorities, and the authorities
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: were on board and said, let's just keep doing.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I had my first ever complaint called in too.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 4: You know, as a physician, I'm licensed by the state.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 4: It's called doppele in Utah, and someone called in saying
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 4: this person is talking about illegal drugs on a podcast,
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 4: and so I got a call and at first I
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 4: was like, oh, what is going on? But then I
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 4: get on with this representative from the state who just
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 4: checked in on those things and was completely understanding about Oh, yeah,
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 4: that person is just misunderstanding what the work you're doing
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 4: with these medicines in an above board way, going through
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 4: the right process to be able to give them legally.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 4: And they dismissed it all swiftly, which I found really
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 4: encouraging as well.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: It really is because we're in a pretty conservative place
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: and to know that's that's the way that's going is
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: that's good news.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah, because I am doing this because I've being just
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 4: first hand time and time again with my clients, the
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 4: suffering that's out there, the the struggle that we all
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 4: have in so many different ways in our mental health individually, collectively.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 4: And you know, I do, I do see the potential
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 4: of these medicines for a number of people as ways
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 4: to either accelerate the healing journey and or open up
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 4: a door to really doing that work in a new way.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 3: That's so exciting.
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, so with that, what do you read Robinson
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: had the ability to waive a magic wand for the future,
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: what would that future look like in three years, two years,
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: five years, What what is your greatest hope to see
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: come about for humanity?
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 4: You know, it's uh, it takes a lot of patience
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 4: and cause me a lot of heartache to be honest,
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 4: how long it is taking to bring these medicines into
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 4: a place where we can give them legally. And if
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 4: I could speed that up in any way, I would like.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 4: I know Oregon, for example, is working on another, like
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 4: another way of opening access to psilocybin therapy through state
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 4: legislation in Utah. There's a task force exploring it a
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 4: lot of other places are working on that. But if
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 4: I could give psilocybin MDMA, DMT in clinic with therapy
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 4: for some really important conditions where so many people are
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 4: suffering and sometimes lives are being lost, I would love
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 4: to be able to do that sooner rather than later.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well that would be great.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: We talk about this together all the time. That's coming.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: We don't know when you know the timing, but I
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: think that the trains on the rails and it's moving
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: down and it might be going slow right now, but
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: I think the results speak for themselves and there's not
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: going to be any way for us to be able
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: to stop that train.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, the train has left the station and it's it
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 4: is really a cause for hope.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. Anything else that you'd like to share
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: with us in partying, We sure appreciate you being here.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: The more I try to prevent it, does this happening?
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 4: No, I just say thank you for yeah, what what
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 4: you're doing in this community and this renaissance to really
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 4: take this uh, this perspective, the stance of loving awareness
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 4: and seeing it for what it is and opening the conversation.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 4: It's really been touching to see.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's so important that we all step
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: into a place where we become more sovereign about ourselves,
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: you know, and about our own wellness.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: And as we've worked and we've worked with a lot
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: of people, it's about understanding that you are your own curriculum.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: You know, you are what you need to kind of understand,
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: and that self awareness journey that really helps you start
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: to heal yourself from the experiences you've had, the thoughts
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: that you've created as your reality, and become more sovereign
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: as a human walking the earth in a more loving way,
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: first to yourself and then to others.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 4: I love that.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, we don't we don't want to
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: stand up on a soapbox and say this is the
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: answer for everyone. And as I mentioned before, but we've
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: seen friends and family transform their lives through this and
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: we've been able to see that firsthand. And that's the
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: reason we're such advocates for it. You know, we've been
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: to the jungle, as they say, and you've been to
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: the jungle, and when that happened, our perspective shifted. So
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: many things shifted, and it's not something that we really
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: feel drawn to even doing right now. But the experience
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: that we had continues to unfold. I call it again
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: some of my weird sayings, the infinite onion just continues
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: to unpeel and over and over, and the learning never ends.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: It's just continual. We never arrive at an understanding of
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: what the hell we're doing here. It's an ever, ever
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: unfolding pattern.
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 4: Of life of peeling away layers, feeling away the layers, right.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 3: I like it.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: As Scot often asks people, who do you think the
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: hardest person is to know? And it's always yourself.
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: It's always yourself. Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much for
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: being our first guest to really dive into this. We
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: appreciate you being here and being so open. This is
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: riceless information for people to have out there and can
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: really be transformative for people.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: And I encourage people to find you and see the
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: studies that you're doing and pay attention to the things
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: that are moving and changing. It's an exciting time to
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: be in the work that you're doing.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 4: It is it is, it's an honor to talk about
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 4: it with you. Thanks for having me great.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 3: Thanks again. Read.
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: If you're enjoying the Observatory podcast, please consider subscribing, sharing
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: us and if you have time to write a review
• 1:07:23
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• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: you in some way, please do so. That helps us
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: to get the word out and get this information out
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: to more and more people so that it can be
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: shared and we can help ripple out this energy that's
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: emanating in the world today. There's been so much separation
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: and we want to find a way to create conversations
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: where we can come together, not divide so much as
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: we have been to learn to come together in unity.
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 2: Thank you you've been listening to the Observatory podcast.
• 1:07:59
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• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: of our future episodes.