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Do Christians Have Evil Hearts? · Rethink Revive with David Leake

• 0:00
  David Leake (2): Do Christians have evil hearts?
• 0:02
  David Leake (2): Are you a dirty, rotten sinner?
• 0:04
  David Leake (2): Are you a saint saved by grace?
• 0:05
  David Leake (2): Are you some weird mixture in between?
• 0:08
  David Leake (2): This is an important question for people of faith, and it impacts the way that we live.
• 0:12
  David Leake (2): It impacts the way that we see ourselves, that we relate to God.
• 0:16
  David Leake (2): And so we wanna talk about this today.
• 0:18
  David Leake (2): Am I dirty and rotten and ugly?
• 0:20
  David Leake (2): Am I holy?
• 0:21
  David Leake (2): Or what even am I?
• 0:22
  David Leake (2): If you're interested in this conversation, stay tuned.
• 0:28
  David Leake (2): Hey, what's up everybody?
• 0:28
  David Leake (2): Welcome to the Rethink Revive podcast, where we take a second look at social and spiritual issues.
• 0:34
  David Leake (2): I'm your host.
• 0:35
  David Leake (2): My name is David Leake, and with me is
• 0:38
  Jordan: Hi, I'm Jordan Kolarik.
• 0:40
  Jordan: glad to be here
• 0:41
  David Leake (2): Absolutely.
• 0:42
  David Leake (2): Jordan has been a guest for a number of episodes.
• 0:45
  David Leake (2): If you're new, if you're new to this episode this is a podcast that ran for, man, six years with me and my dad who passed away in February of this year.
• 0:54
  David Leake (2): He was a pastor for 35 years at Allison Park Church.
• 0:57
  David Leake (2): And part of, what I'm doing now is continuing this on in his stead, and Jordan has been one of my best friends for a long, long time.
• 1:04
  David Leake (2): Jordan is the director, founder, president, CEO, I don't know what else you are, all your titles, okay,
• 1:11
  Jordan: the pastor
• 1:12
  David Leake (2): of Chi Alpha Pittsburgh, which is a college ministry that is blowing up and doing awesome things on campus at the University of Pittsburgh.
• 1:19
  David Leake (2): And so we're gonna, we're gonna jump in in just a second today.
• 1:23
  David Leake (2): Jordan, last time we were talking, you mentioned that you didn't really remember why our name was Rethink.Revive., so I feel like maybe, maybe I should just quickly mention what the idea for this is.
• 1:33
  David Leake (2): You know, the...
• 1:33
  Jordan: should
• 1:34
  David Leake (2): Okay, so I believe it's Romans says"Therefore, be transformed by the renewing of your mind." Sometimes we get stuck in ways of thinking about things that are just default.
• 1:45
  David Leake (2): They're the default setting.
• 1:46
  David Leake (2): It's the way we grew up.
• 1:47
  David Leake (2): It's the way our parents taught us.
• 1:49
  David Leake (2): It's just the first reaction we have.
• 1:52
  David Leake (2): But Romans talks about how part of the way we're transformed to look like Jesus is by the renewing of our mind.
• 1:57
  David Leake (2): And so this podcast is meant to help us take a second look at social and spiritual issues, and the idea of Rethink.Revive.
• 2:04
  David Leake (2): As we rethink things it allows the Holy Spirit room to revive us, to transform us, and to make us look more like Jesus.
• 2:10
  David Leake (2): So does that, does that give some clarity?
• 2:13
  Jordan: And something I thought that was kind of cool is I, when I was asking about this you mentioned that it, there, there's even intentionality in the logo.
• 2:19
  Jordan: Can you...
• 2:20
  Jordan: You should reveal that.
• 2:21
  Jordan: That was
• 2:21
  David Leake (2): Absolutely.
• 2:22
  David Leake (2): Yeah, sure.
• 2:23
  David Leake (2): Yeah, so it's like two Rs.
• 2:25
  David Leake (2): So it's like the lo- two lowercase Rs that are meant to look like a cycle.
• 2:28
  David Leake (2): Think of like the recycling kind of a thing.
• 2:31
  David Leake (2): So it's rethink and then cycling back in to revive in a little circle.
• 2:35
  David Leake (2): So, so that's the whole heart of this.
• 2:37
  David Leake (2): You know, we're, we're just two pastors that are taking a look at things that happen in our world, the issues that we're dealing with, the things the Bible says, and we wanna take a pastoral tone towards trying to help you, whoever you are as a listener walk through some of these things yourself.
• 2:51
  David Leake (2): By the way, I'm a brand new lead pastor of a church that just launched this past weekend, Salt Church, yeah, in Ponte Vedra Beach here in the greater Jacksonville, Florida area.
• 3:00
  David Leake (2): Jordan was, was here celebrating with us, playing the acoustic guitar.
• 3:05
  David Leake (2): It was awesome.
• 3:06
  Jordan: and
• 3:06
  David Leake (2): singing.
• 3:07
  David Leake (2): True.
• 3:07
  Jordan: your boys singing too.
• 3:09
  Jordan: Come on, somebody
• 3:10
  David Leake (2): It was so fun.
• 3:11
  David Leake (2): We, we had so many people come for the first time, and you might be hearing this and trying to find content about us or maybe you're from Chi Alpha and you are in Pittsburgh or the University of Pittsburgh.
• 3:21
  David Leake (2): You can always find more information by going on our social pages, and yeah, Salt Church and Chi Alpha partnership, we're excited.
• 3:29
  Jordan: Yeah, let's go.
• 3:29
  Jordan: Let's
• 3:30
  David Leake (2): so all right, so let's get started.
• 3:31
  David Leake (2): I wanna talk today about this, this question that I have.
• 3:34
  David Leake (2): Do Christians have evil hearts?
• 3:38
  David Leake (2): Jordan, you and I talked about this, like, well, we've talked about it a lot.
• 3:41
  Jordan: A lot.
• 3:42
  Jordan: Yeah
• 3:43
  David Leake (2): there this is...
• 3:43
  David Leake (2): Okay, I'm gonna do some super old pop culture callback right now for a second.
• 3:49
  David Leake (2): Super old by pop culture standards, not super old as in general.
• 3:54
  David Leake (2): A couple of years ago, I think it was in like May of 2024, uh Logan Paul had Cliff Nectal on his Impaulsive podcast.
• 4:03
  David Leake (2): Do you remember that?
• 4:03
  Jordan: wait, this doesn't feel old at all.
• 4:05
  Jordan: Two years ago?
• 4:06
  David Leake (2): Yeah.
• 4:07
  David Leake (2): Well, it's, it's old by, like, how fast things move.
• 4:10
  Jordan: Okay, I
• 4:10
  David Leake (2): Oh, shoot
• 4:11
  Jordan: Wow.
• 4:11
  Jordan: I thought you were, I thought you were gonna be I thought you were gonna be talking about the'90s or
• 4:15
  David Leake (2): No, no, no, no, no.
• 4:17
  David Leake (2): Yeah, 2024.
• 4:18
  David Leake (2): By the way, every time I kick my table, the camera shakes, so we are trying some new setup stuff.
• 4:23
  David Leake (2): Apologize for that.
• 4:24
  David Leake (2): Anyway, okay, so on the Impaulsive podcast, they were talking, and I remember this moment where Cliff was talking about sin and how every person has, has this problem of sin.
• 4:34
  David Leake (2): And he was like,"Yeah, you know, I'm a dirty, rotten sinner just like you." And Logan was like,"Dude, you're, you're not just like me."
• 4:41
  Jordan: He's like,"No, you're not."
• 4:43
  David Leake (2): Yeah.
• 4:43
  David Leake (2): And Cliff was like,"No, I am." And he was like,"I don't think you are." And, like, as we were talking about, like, as I was watching this and as you and I discussed this, I remember just feeling like Logan's kind of right
• 4:55
  Jordan: That might be the one moment in the whole podcast that Logan was right and Cliff was wrong.
• 5:01
  Jordan: But yeah, I mean, Logan was clearly picking up like,"W- are we gonna pretend
• 5:06
  David Leake (2): Yeah.
• 5:06
  Jordan: you who go university to university spreading the gospel and me are, like, the same?"
• 5:12
  David Leake (2): Right.
• 5:13
  Jordan: fair.
• 5:13
  Jordan: It's a fair point
• 5:14
  David Leake (2): It's a fair point.
• 5:15
  David Leake (2): And I, I think this, this, this is a topic that matters a lot because the way that we view ourselves, especially in relation to God, is kind of the framework that we look through, I guess, the, the scripture at, through the world at, through what it looks like to be more like Jesus.
• 5:33
  David Leake (2): Again, this, this is primarily for people, this podcast I think, who are following Jesus or, or who are curious about it.
• 5:40
  David Leake (2): And so I, I wanna talk about this idea.
• 5:41
  David Leake (2): We'll talk about sin, but specifically for Christians, do Christians have evil hearts?
• 5:46
  David Leake (2): And how should our view about our hearts or our flesh or sin nature, how should that impact the way that we live as Christians?
• 5:53
  David Leake (2): So that's the frame.
• 5:54
  David Leake (2): I'll pitch it to you, Jor.
• 5:55
  Jordan: Okay, but like, okay, so yeah, when you compare Cliff to Logan Paul, it's like, yeah, that's probably...
• 6:04
  Jordan: probably obvious that what Cliff was saying, he might not be in comparison a dirty, rotten sinner, but Cliff is obviously saying that as someone that knows his own heart.
• 6:14
  Jordan: So Cliff, compared to, like, who he aspires to be or the person of Jesus and the things he thinks about it, like he, he...
• 6:21
  Jordan: So I, I think that Christians say that because when they're talking to someone who's not a Christian, that's like,"Well, I could never do that," you know,"You're such a good person," they're like,"No, no, no, no, no, you don't understand," like,"I'm not a good person." I think, yeah, when you're...
• 6:36
  Jordan: Who are you comparing yourself to when you're saying,"No, I'm just like you.
• 6:40
  Jordan: I'm a dirty, rotten sinner," because I think that all Christians, if they're being honest, admit, like, they still have evil thoughts, or they think about their past, and compared to Jesus or who they wanna be or who they should be, they're like,"No, no, no, no, I'm not that far advanced." I think the thing they're saying is like,"I'm ju- I'm just someone that has my sins forgiven." Now, I think we're gonna come from that.
• 7:00
  Jordan: I think we're gonna talk about how you should probably view yourself a little bit differently than that, but I think that's what we're really saying, and I see it a lot of times as a tool to relate to someone who hasn't quite made that step to follow Jesus, hasn't quite got their foot in the door of church, and so you're like,"Dude, I'm not that different than you.
• 7:17
  Jordan: The only difference is, like, I believe in Jesus and you don't, but, like, I'm not better than you." I think that's really what they're trying to say in those
• 7:25
  David Leake (2): Well, no doubt.
• 7:26
  David Leake (2): But I, I think the other thing too that you mentioned is there is this weird thing as Christians of like, okay, I'm saved, and, you know, Jesus has forgiven my sin and made me new, but I'm still struggling with, with whatever sin it is, whether it's a sin pattern, or it could be an addiction, or it could just be, you know, one of those compulsive like, you know, it could be an anger issue or whatever it might be, and it's like I am wrestling with this.
• 7:52
  David Leake (2): I think some of this conversation stems from shame.
• 7:55
  David Leake (2): You know?
• 7:56
  David Leake (2): It's like, it's like, ah, I, I want to be different.
• 7:59
  David Leake (2): I should be different.
• 7:59
  David Leake (2): Does God hate me?
• 8:01
  David Leake (2): You know, do I have an evil heart?
• 8:03
  David Leake (2): I, I want to follow God, but I feel like I am a dirty, rotten sinner
• 8:06
  Jordan: For me, it was also a lack of progress at the speed that I thought I should.
• 8:10
  Jordan: You know, you
• 8:11
  David Leake (2): Sure
• 8:11
  Jordan: testimonies of people like,"I was doing all these crazy things, then I gave my life to Jesus and never again." And I was like, oh, I wish that was my story, and I want that to be my story, but I was like,"I am not progressing.
• 8:23
  Jordan: I'm still telling lies.
• 8:25
  Jordan: I'm still exaggerating stories.
• 8:27
  Jordan: I'm still..." Like, yeah, I didn't feel like my purity was where I wanted it to be.
• 8:31
  Jordan: So I would say that because the reality, yes, I knew I was forgiven, but the reality was I didn't feel like I was walking in total freedom.
• 8:37
  Jordan: So I, I had to not pretend to other people like I'm so holy.
• 8:43
  Jordan: I felt like that was me being honest.
• 8:45
  Jordan: Like,"Hey, I'm just like you.
• 8:46
  Jordan: I'm a dirty rotten sinner." I mean, I used to say that all the time.
• 8:49
  Jordan: I don't really say that anymore for probably reasons I would imagine we're gonna get into, but I, I think it does come from the what's your lived reality, and if you haven't seen an immediate change to the patterns, you probably feel like,"Yeah, the only thing that's changed about me is that my sins are now forgiven.
• 9:05
  David Leake (2): That's right.
• 9:06
  David Leake (2): Yeah, you know, I- honestly too, there, there is a strong biblical base for where this thought comes from.
• 9:12
  David Leake (2): So let's start with this.
• 9:13
  David Leake (2): You know, Romans says,"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans talks a lot about sin nature, and i- I guess if we just want to start by outlining the problem that all people have.
• 9:25
  David Leake (2): Now, this is basic probably for Christians if you've been in church for a while.
• 9:28
  David Leake (2): But the problem that all of us have is a sin problem, and it's this idea that we do things that are against our conscience.
• 9:35
  David Leake (2): We know they're wrong.
• 9:36
  David Leake (2): We do it anyway, and ultimately that's an offense against God that separates us as people from a holy God.
• 9:43
  David Leake (2): And this is where Jesus comes into the equation, and this is where Christianity sort of stems from.
• 9:48
  David Leake (2): You know, John 3:16,"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him will not perish but will have eternal life." So, you know, God sent Jesus to take the punishment for our sins.
• 9:58
  David Leake (2): So everybody has a sin problem.
• 10:00
  David Leake (2): Everybody naturally has evil hearts.
• 10:02
  David Leake (2): The presupposition of the Bible is that people aren't inherently good.
• 10:07
  David Leake (2): They're inherently bad
• 10:08
  Jordan: there is none who are righteous, no, not one.
• 10:11
  Jordan: And
• 10:11
  David Leake (2): Right
• 10:12
  Jordan: even says,"If anyone says they're without sin, they're a liar."
• 10:16
  David Leake (2): Mm-hmm.
• 10:17
  David Leake (2): First Sean
• 10:17
  Jordan: verses, those verses made me feel like, yeah, I am a dirty, rotten sinner, just a, just a forgiven one.
• 10:25
  Jordan: You know?
• 10:25
  David Leake (2): Right
• 10:26
  Jordan: not righteous.
• 10:27
  Jordan: There's none who's righteous, not me, not you.
• 10:30
  Jordan: I'm just forgiven, and you're not.
• 10:31
  Jordan: Sort of like, the courtroom of heaven, right?
• 10:36
  Jordan: Like, I am technically guilty, but God calls me f- like innocent, but I'm like,"But I'm definitely guilty." But, like, I'm innocent, so
• 10:47
  David Leake (2): I'm technically innocent, but I'm technically guilty
• 10:49
  Jordan: I'm not gonna do the crime or the, the time, but I did the crime.
• 10:53
  Jordan: Like, that's how it, it felt.
• 10:55
  Jordan: So like, all right, sweet.
• 10:56
  Jordan: Like, I'm lucky, but if you ask me, like,"Did you do it?" I'm like,"Yeah, all, all the time." Like, but I'm just forgiven.
• 11:02
  Jordan: That's all
• 11:02
  David Leake (2): Right.
• 11:03
  David Leake (2): Okay, so let me hit, hit, hit you with a scripture.
• 11:05
  David Leake (2): Jeremiah 17:9 says,"The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure.
• 11:11
  David Leake (2): Who can understand it?" That feels...
• 11:14
  David Leake (2): Even, even as a Christian, sometimes this feels true, right?
• 11:18
  David Leake (2): I mean, that, like, we have deceitful hearts.
• 11:21
  David Leake (2): I mean, you know, this...
• 11:22
  David Leake (2): Is it Proverbs that says there's a way that seems right to a man, but in the end, it, it leads to death?
• 11:26
  David Leake (2): Like, our hearts naturally can lead us astray if we're, if we're following the hearts or what our desires are.
• 11:33
  Jordan: Yes
• 11:34
  David Leake (2): I think there's another verse that I think even makes this confusing.
• 11:36
  David Leake (2): It's, it's what Paul says in Romans.
• 11:39
  David Leake (2): Let me see if I can pull this up, where Paul calls himself the chief of sinners.
• 11:43
  David Leake (2): Do you remember that one?
• 11:44
  Jordan: Yeah, 100%.
• 11:45
  Jordan: Like, I'm, I'm the worst sinner that there ever was.
• 11:49
  Jordan: To me, actually, you're like,"Oh, it makes it confusing." No, this all builds a really strong case that it's crystal clear.
• 11:56
  Jordan: It's our lived experience.
• 11:57
  Jordan: It's our lived reality.
• 11:59
  Jordan: There's scripture that calls us sinful.
• 12:01
  Jordan: Like, I think for most Christians, this is their reality, and that's why Jesus is attractive because, in a lot of ways, he is the fix to this, our big, bad problem.
• 12:14
  Jordan: Jesus more, I think, than that, and we're gonna talk about that.
• 12:19
  Jordan: But I think for a lot of us, we only know, maybe I'll call it this, the baptism of John.
• 12:24
  David Leake (2): Right.
• 12:25
  Jordan: the
• 12:25
  David Leake (2): Sure
• 12:26
  Jordan: John essentially is like you are repenting for your sins and then forgiven for your sins.
• 12:32
  Jordan: The Book of Acts comes to teach that there's actually way, something way better than that, bap-baptism in the Holy Spirit and baptism into the name of Jesus.
• 12:41
  Jordan: But I think a lot of Christians are kind of stuck in that like,"I sin, I get forgiven, I sin, I get forgiven," that Jesus is really just the best bull or goat we could ever have to wash away our sins.
• 12:51
  Jordan: So that's sort of what he offers is like forgiveness, forgiveness, forgiveness.
• 12:55
  Jordan: And dude, just to empathize with people, like if you are like,"That's how I view Christianity," I did that for years.
• 13:01
  Jordan: I mean, I even knew, like I had an okay understanding of theology but still was like g- it's like so incorrect, but I was like,"If I sin and then don't ask for forgiveness and then happen to die, like I wonder if I would go to hell because I show up with like unforgiven sin." You know?
• 13:20
  Jordan: Like such bad theology, but it was like, yeah, I was like dirty and then clean and dirty and then clean, and I think that's how a lot of people kind of view what Jesus does for us.
• 13:30
  David Leake (2): Absolutely.
• 13:31
  David Leake (2): Okay, so where do you want to go from here?
• 13:32
  David Leake (2): I think, like, you know, one of the things that I love about Chi Alpha is you're constantly seeing brand new people that are walking out of the world, out of m- maybe never following Jesus, or maybe out of a totally lukewarm Christianity that are coming in with baggage.
• 13:49
  David Leake (2): And, you know, they're sort of, they're, they're wrestling th- I, I actually s- There, there's a person that I believe hasn't come yet to Salt Church, but they were considering it, and I heard this through the grapevine.
• 14:00
  David Leake (2): They were saying to their friend like,"I want to come, but, like, do they even want me there?
• 14:03
  David Leake (2): Like, I'm, I'm not sure I'm a church kind of person." Y- you know, I think So talk to me about this.
• 14:09
  David Leake (2): Like, where For someone listening who's dealing with this, where do you want to go?
• 14:13
  David Leake (2): And you also had a huge thing with this recently where you've t- taught in Galatians for this purpose.
• 14:17
  Jordan: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:18
  Jordan: So I think, I think that of what we're describing is our current reality.
• 14:24
  Jordan: I just think that you don't fully understand what Jesus actually accomplished at the cross.
• 14:31
  Jordan: I think he was doing more than just simply an atonement for our sins.
• 14:36
  Jordan: So Jesus comes and he actually says,"I've come that they would have life, they'd have it to the full." Some translations say life abundantly.
• 14:45
  Jordan: So that actually describes a new reality.
• 14:48
  Jordan: The thief comes to steal and kill and destroy.
• 14:51
  Jordan: I've come that they may have life and li- and have a good life, a party life, life to the full, life abundantly.
• 14:57
  Jordan: So, so there is something more in the person of Jesus, something beyond I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I suck, I'm bad, I'm bad, I'm bad, which is wh- where I lived.
• 15:09
  Jordan: So, so things that I feel like w- you need to learn about is what is the new nature?
• 15:16
  Jordan: the Bible says the old has gone, the new has come.
• 15:18
  Jordan: So you can't just say,"I'm the same old person that I was, just forgiven." It's like, no.
• 15:23
  Jordan: Actually, the Bible describes something new happening, that there's a
• 15:27
  David Leake (2): угу
• 15:27
  Jordan: seed planted and that begins to germinate.
• 15:29
  Jordan: So things about the new nature are important for Christians to understand and study and learn about.
• 15:34
  Jordan: I also think understanding the difference between your spirit and your flesh.
• 15:38
  Jordan: You even actually have a distinction between what is your flesh and what's, like, the heart.
• 15:42
  David Leake (2): Yeah, right
• 15:42
  Jordan: gives us a new heart.
• 15:43
  Jordan: The the podcast is named Rethink Revive because we get a new mind.
• 15:48
  Jordan: The Bible actually tells us when we come into Christ, we can have the mind of Christ.
• 15:51
  Jordan: So there's mo- yes.
• 15:53
  Jordan: Yes, yes, yes.
• 15:54
  Jordan: We have sin.
• 15:55
  Jordan: It needs forgiven.
• 15:56
  Jordan: Jesus is amazing.
• 15:59
  Jordan: Thank...
• 15:59
  Jordan: If that's all he did, praise God.
• 16:01
  Jordan: But he did more than just forgive our sin.
• 16:04
  Jordan: He gives us a new nature.
• 16:05
  Jordan: He gives us a new mind.
• 16:07
  Jordan: And I think once you start to understand that, and once you start to believe that, it actually helps you to not look like the old person that you were, because you behave in alignment with what you believe about yourself.
• 16:19
  David Leake (2): right.
• 16:19
  David Leake (2): Yeah, that's right
• 16:20
  Jordan: if you say like, I'm always gonna struggle with this, but praise God, I'm forgiven," you probably will always struggle with it, and life just becomes sin management.
• 16:32
  Jordan: But there's so much more than that.
• 16:35
  Jordan: Why are
• 16:35
  David Leake (2): I, I just, I have a funny but inappropriate Jordan quote that I can't say on this podcast, but I'll tell you about you always struggling when we were in college.
• 16:44
  David Leake (2): You said something really funny and it just crossed my mind, so we'll save that for another time.
• 16:48
  Jordan: not only are
• 16:49
  David Leake (2): I literally can't say it.
• 16:50
  David Leake (2): I, I literally can't say it.
• 16:53
  David Leake (2): I'll tell you later.
• 16:54
  David Leake (2): Okay.
• 16:55
  David Leake (2): Okay.
• 16:57
  David Leake (2): That's...
• 16:58
  David Leake (2): What a weird thing to say on a podcast.
• 16:59
  David Leake (2): You...
• 16:59
  Jordan: w- was I
• 17:01
  David Leake (2): I- I'll just, I'll just say you, you would say it about Italians.
• 17:03
  David Leake (2): That was your thing.
• 17:04
  David Leake (2): If you're, if that triggers
• 17:06
  Jordan: yeah.
• 17:07
  Jordan: I, I was just, I was just feeling like this is just the way I'm gonna be.
• 17:13
  David Leake (2): This is just the way Italians are.
• 17:15
  Jordan: Yeah.
• 17:16
  Jordan: Hey,
• 17:17
  David Leake (2): Okay, let me move on from that.
• 17:18
  Jordan: I'm gonna be.
• 17:19
  Jordan: I'm Italian.
• 17:20
  David Leake (2): Italians are sinners.
• 17:21
  Jordan: I'm always gonna sin.
• 17:23
  David Leake (2): Yeah.
• 17:23
  David Leake (2): Okay, okay.
• 17:24
  David Leake (2): So back to, back to the idea of, of new creation
• 17:28
  Jordan: can have a new life unless you're Italian, and then you're
• 17:31
  David Leake (2): And then you're screwed.
• 17:32
  David Leake (2): Sorry.
• 17:32
  Jordan: sorry
• 17:33
  David Leake (2): Yeah.
• 17:34
  David Leake (2): Okay, so, so we talked about the sin nature, we talked about the, the transformation.
• 17:38
  David Leake (2): Let me read some scriptures.
• 17:40
  David Leake (2): Wow.
• 17:40
  David Leake (2): Let me start over and read some scriptures this time about what, what the Bible says about new nature.
• 17:46
  David Leake (2): So Ezekiel 36:26-27
• 17:50
  Jordan: whipping out some OT bangers.
• 17:53
  David Leake (2): have some new ones too, but this is really good.
• 17:55
  Jordan: that's fire
• 17:56
  David Leake (2): Okay, Ezekiel 36:26-27,"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you.
• 18:01
  David Leake (2): I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
• 18:05
  David Leake (2): I will put my spirit in you." Note that because that is a new covenant idea.
• 18:10
  David Leake (2): "I will put my spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws." Let's read 2 Corinthians 5:17,"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come.
• 18:20
  David Leake (2): The old has gone, the new is, is here." Here's Romans 6:6,"For we know that our old self was crucified with him," that's Jesus,"so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin." We could go on and on with these verses
• 18:37
  Jordan: Okay.
• 18:37
  Jordan: Yes.
• 18:38
  Jordan: So those, those verses should encourage you that there's something more happening than just sin management and sin forgiveness.
• 18:45
  David Leake (2): yes
• 18:46
  Jordan: actually, just let me...
• 18:47
  Jordan: I'm gonna take it in a side direction.
• 18:48
  Jordan: It's your
• 18:48
  David Leake (2): Go for it.
• 18:49
  Jordan: you
• 18:49
  David Leake (2): for it
• 18:50
  Jordan: us back on track.
• 18:50
  Jordan: I get to be the random guy on the pod.
• 18:52
  Jordan: I, I used to think that baptism...
• 18:55
  Jordan: So baptism is a beautiful symbolic thing of what Jesus does, does for us.
• 18:59
  Jordan: I used to think the water and being washed was kind of the thing, and, and I do believe that that is part of what it represents, that you go down, and you come up, and it's like your sin stays in the water, and you're like,"I'm clean." That's what I used to think.
• 19:12
  Jordan: But also, I think it represents that old you going down.
• 19:16
  Jordan: Going down into what?
• 19:18
  Jordan: Into the depths, death.
• 19:19
  David Leake (2): Right
• 19:20
  Jordan: you goes down and dies, stays there, and you come up, yes, washed, but actually the new you.
• 19:27
  Jordan: So just like Jesus who died on the cross and rose again three days later, so you die, you know, are crucified with Christ.
• 19:35
  Jordan: So what does that mean?
• 19:36
  Jordan: Crucifixion leads to death.
• 19:38
  Jordan: You get buried with Christ, and a new you rises up.
• 19:42
  Jordan: So, so even, even my framework, I was like,"Oh, yeah, all of Christianity is just about one thing, which is just, like, being washed, and I'm still the same guy.
• 19:51
  Jordan: I'm just now a washed version of me."
• 19:53
  David Leake (2): Mm-hmm.
• 19:54
  Jordan: but no, it's actually the old you dying and the new you rising as well
• 19:59
  David Leake (2): That's right.
• 19:59
  David Leake (2): That's right.
• 20:00
  David Leake (2): Yeah.
• 20:00
  David Leake (2): I mean, it, it, it sym- it symbolizes...
• 20:03
  David Leake (2): It's more than s- just symbolic, but the picture, we'll say, the picture of going under the water is being buried, that our old self is being buried, and that when we come back up, we're being resurrected.
• 20:15
  Jordan: Yes
• 20:16
  David Leake (2): like, the first step for Christians.
• 20:19
  David Leake (2): When you look at the Book of Acts, after repentance, immediately they were baptized in water, and actually baptized in the Holy Spirit, which is another podcast for another time
• 20:27
  Jordan: Which would help them, by the way, wrestle that they don't go on podcasts saying,"I'm just a dirty, rotten sinner." It's like, no, you're getting baptized now to represent that new you, and this is a, this is like a line that you've crossed over that there's a new you that's living.
• 20:41
  Jordan: It would help them to kind of have that framework to not be like,"Oh, I'm just basically the same.
• 20:44
  Jordan: I just raised my hand once and repeated after my pastor," you know?
• 20:48
  David Leake (2): Right.
• 20:49
  David Leake (2): Well, and by the way, I just want to mention, I think what Cliff was saying is respectable, and it's, it, it is a certain theological camp o- of which it's nuanced.
• 20:59
  David Leake (2): We'll, we'll talk about this in a second.
• 21:01
  David Leake (2): He, he said that for a reason.
• 21:02
  David Leake (2): I don't think he was saying something he- heretical or wrong, but I think the way that that can lead Christians to believe is that they are stuck.
• 21:12
  David Leake (2): It's that they're always going to be stuck.
• 21:14
  David Leake (2): It's that they're always going to be living in bondage, that they're never going to have victory, that they're always going to feel ashamed before God.
• 21:21
  David Leake (2): And that was, just frankly, that, that's not the way that God meant for you to live, and that, that really diminishes the victory that the cross of Jesus was meant to give for you.
• 21:31
  David Leake (2): So
• 21:32
  Jordan: I,
• 21:32
  David Leake (2): yeah, go, go for it.
• 21:33
  David Leake (2): Yes
• 21:34
  Jordan: so here's what I would be thinking and what I sometimes think and definitely what I thought.
• 21:38
  Jordan: So all right, I'm new.
• 21:40
  Jordan: I'm-- old me died.
• 21:42
  Jordan: Why do I still have the same desires?
• 21:45
  Jordan: Why do I still blow up in anger?
• 21:47
  Jordan: Why do I still get drawn into lust?
• 21:49
  Jordan: Like, I've repented, and I, I'm new, I'm new, I'm new.
• 21:51
  Jordan: Like, how many times do I gotta say that before I'm like,"I don't feel..." I'm actually not all that new.
• 21:56
  Jordan: That new me ain't really new me-ing.
• 21:58
  Jordan: Why then do I still have these struggles with my flesh if this is true?
• 22:05
  Jordan: Because it feels like I s- I think a lot of Christians feel like we're just kinda like the cheerleaders, like,"Rah, rah, it's so much better." And it's like, it's not really that much better, but
• 22:14
  David Leake (2): Угу
• 22:14
  Jordan: I'm forgiven.
• 22:15
  Jordan: So do we have to deny reality?
• 22:16
  Jordan: Like, what is going on that I still have some of these still same struggles?
• 22:20
  Jordan: Some people immediately experience a change,
• 22:23
  David Leake (2): Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
• 22:24
  David Leake (2): Well, that's a good question.
• 22:26
  David Leake (2): Okay, so I think we can spend the rest of our podcast talking through things like Romans 7 and the realities of, of what that is.
• 22:33
  David Leake (2): We'll, we'll get...
• 22:34
  David Leake (2): I'm just telling you, Jordan, so you can think ahead of time.
• 22:36
  David Leake (2): But, we'll, we'll spend time talking about that and, and I guess the, the balance of becoming more like Jesus.
• 22:45
  David Leake (2): I guess I will say there could be a couple of different reasons, though, as to why the new me ain't new me, as you said, which I, I love that.
• 22:54
  David Leake (2): Okay, there could be a couple of reasons.
• 22:55
  David Leake (2): The, the, the big one that I will say that is worth diagnosing is sometimes that happens because we actually haven't repented yet.
• 23:04
  Jordan: Wow.
• 23:05
  David Leake (2): Do you know what I mean?
• 23:06
  David Leake (2): Okay, sometimes it's because we have just been coming to church, and we believe we're a Christian, and all we are is just a flat-out believer, but we're not a follower yet, and there's a really big difference there.
• 23:20
  David Leake (2): You know, when, when the the word Christian comes from, in the Book of Acts, when they were seeing the Christians before they were called that, they said,"These people look like little Christs, little Jesuses." So they got this name, which was not a statement of what they believed.
• 23:35
  David Leake (2): It was a statement of what they looked like.
• 23:38
  David Leake (2): I think that a trap that sometimes we fall into that can be the culprit for struggles is that we haven't actually gotten to the very base level, which is repenting of our sin.
• 23:50
  David Leake (2): It's, it's saying...
• 23:51
  David Leake (2): It's not just saying,"I believe in Jesus," which that's a part of it.
• 23:55
  David Leake (2): It's not just confessing with our mouth, but it's, it's a turning away from our old life.
• 23:59
  David Leake (2): It's saying,"I no longer reserve the right to define good and evil for myself.
• 24:04
  David Leake (2): I no longer reserve the right to do a little bit of this and a little bit of this, but I go to church on Sundays, and I'm gonna just do me, but Jesus is gonna do Jesus, and I'll kind of come in, but, like, I'm gonna pick and choose which parts of following him, which parts of the Bible I believe." Like, you are always gonna stay stuck in sin if you're at that place because that isn't repentance
• 24:24
  Jordan: let's go mentality for a second then, because I do think it comes back to mentality.
• 24:27
  Jordan: Yeah, like, if you think that that's okay, then it's gonna be tolerable.
• 24:33
  Jordan: Like, for instance, I feel very okay with our house being a little bit messy,'cause everyone's house is a little bit messy.
• 24:39
  Jordan: I make no apologies for it.
• 24:41
  Jordan: If you came over my house, like, I have two kids under two.
• 24:43
  Jordan: Like, I'm not...
• 24:44
  Jordan: Like, that is what it is, and sorry, cope.
• 24:47
  Jordan: Well, because of that, though, I'm probably, I'm probably not inclined to, like, sweat my brains off every night at tidying up everything because I'm like,"Ah, we got two under two." That's my excuse.
• 24:57
  Jordan: I hear a lot of people when they're talk- like Christians and people that I do think believe in Jesus, say phrases that I think set up denial structures to not make you look at your sin, not make you look at your life, and then basically be like,"Am I tolerating this?" There, there are things that allow you to be like,"Ah, it's fine." And, and to Dave's point, yeah, then you're not gonna really repent because, quote,"I mean, everyone has struggles." Like, it's like, hey, are you a Ch- I mi- I meet people on the side of the street when we're doing street evangelism, and I talk to them about Jesus, and they're like,"I'm a Christian." And I'm looking at them, and I can smell alcohol on their breath, and I know they're not 21 or I know...
• 25:37
  Jordan: Like, I know what they're out to do that night, and I'm like,"Okay, make it make sense." And they're like,"Yeah.
• 25:42
  Jordan: I mean, I, you know, I, I get drunk sometimes, but like, eh, you know, everybody has their thing, and nobody's perfect.
• 25:47
  Jordan: Nobody's perfect," right?
• 25:49
  Jordan: Although I agree nobody's perfect, I think that sets up a denial structure that your standard is, eh, you know, what...
• 25:58
  Jordan: It is what it is.
• 25:59
  Jordan: Like, you don't feel compelled or convicted to be radical with your sin.
• 26:05
  Jordan: And I wanna, I wanna be clear, I'm not trying to preach moralism.
• 26:07
  Jordan: You're not saved by what you do.
• 26:09
  Jordan: You know, you're not unsaved because you make a mistake.
• 26:11
  Jordan: But yeah, I think that there are c- phrases that Christians might have.
• 26:15
  Jordan: "We- hey, we're all sinners.
• 26:16
  Jordan: Everybody has their thing.
• 26:17
  Jordan: That's just
• 26:17
  David Leake (2): Right
• 26:18
  Jordan: in my flesh." Like, we all have things that kind of enable, enable sin to stay, and we don't feel like, oh, I gotta, I gotta deal with this'cause I'm willingly choosing sin, and that's not what a Christ follower does.
• 26:30
  David Leake (2): Yeah.
• 26:30
  David Leake (2): I mean, if, if we're talking about the idea of faith, again, we're talking about, like, currently the difference between a believer and a follower.
• 26:38
  David Leake (2): James in James 2 says"You believe that there is one God, good, even the believers...
• 26:43
  David Leake (2): or even the demons believe there is one God and shudder." And then, you know, the...
• 26:48
  David Leake (2): I think it's James 2:26 says"As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead." There, there is a...
• 26:55
  David Leake (2): Okay, we are saved by grace alone, but if we don't actually have a lifestyle that, that shows repentance, that shows fruit of remaining in Jesus, then we should be questioning whether we've taken that first step,
• 27:09
  Jordan: Ja
• 27:10
  David Leake (2): is to actually repent of our sin.
• 27:12
  David Leake (2): There's...
• 27:12
  David Leake (2): Okay, it doesn't mean if you're struggling with sin that you haven't repented.
• 27:16
  Jordan: Totally
• 27:17
  David Leake (2): mean that you're going to hell, doesn't mean you're not a Christian.
• 27:19
  David Leake (2): But it should make us at least ask the question, have I ever repented of my sin and decided to make Jesus king in my life and allow him to be in the driver's seat?
• 27:29
  David Leake (2): 'Cause if not, you're gonna stay stuck, and that's just the reality of what sin is.
• 27:34
  Jordan: One
• 27:34
  David Leake (2): it's bondage
• 27:36
  Jordan: one of the huge switches, and I, you know, I am so grateful that I have the opportunity to lead young men in purity.
• 27:43
  Jordan: And, and the internet and TikTok and just the world we live in is not kind to 17-year-olds, 18-year-olds, 21-year-olds,
• 27:51
  David Leake (2): Yeah, right
• 27:52
  Jordan: of them accidentally fall into just, like, habitual masturbation or pornography.
• 27:56
  Jordan: One of the craziest things that I see shift for them when I tell them,"I know you want to be fee- free from X action," right?
• 28:06
  Jordan: Like, you don't wanna look at porn anymore.
• 28:07
  Jordan: You don't wanna masturbate anymore.
• 28:08
  Jordan: You...
• 28:09
  Jordan: Okay.
• 28:09
  Jordan: "But you have to surrender your right to lust." And what happens there is they go,"Oh." Because the dudes that I'm working with, they don't wanna be slaves to looking at stuff on the internet or staying up way too late, but they haven't thought through like,"Oh, that means I have to give up the right to check girls out.
• 28:29
  Jordan: That means I have to give up the right to..." And that makes them go,"Oh, I don't know if I ever actually surrendered this.
• 28:35
  Jordan: I wanted the downstream effects, you know, I don't wanna be a slave to this thing." But I h- it comes back to lordship and surrender.
• 28:43
  Jordan: I
• 28:44
  David Leake (2): Sure
• 28:44
  Jordan: this at the very beginning, and this is true of any of us.
• 28:47
  Jordan: Like, I don't wanna blow up in anger over my ki- at, at my kids.
• 28:50
  Jordan: Yeah, sure.
• 28:51
  Jordan: But you have to go upstream and sur- and surrender your right to act however you want,
• 28:56
  David Leake (2): Absolutely.
• 28:58
  David Leake (2): Yes
• 28:58
  Jordan: back to full surrender and repentance for your, you toting your own freedom.
• 29:04
  Jordan: I can do what I want.
• 29:05
  David Leake (2): う ん う ん、 う ん。 Right.
• 29:10
  Jordan: Mama didn't raise no punk, so I'm g- I'm gonna say it.
• 29:13
  Jordan: Well, may- maybe you shouldn't say it.
• 29:14
  Jordan: You know, maybe
• 29:15
  David Leake (2): Right.
• 29:15
  Jordan: have a reign over your tongue if we're talking about James, James 3.
• 29:19
  Jordan: Like, so, so it does...
• 29:20
  Jordan: S- surrender and repentance comes from upstream, looking at what things do you think you have the right to do, and giving those over to Jesus as well.
• 29:30
  David Leake (2): Absolutely.
• 29:31
  David Leake (2): Yeah, repentance is the core and the foundation.
• 29:34
  David Leake (2): I'll throw out some scriptures just to, just to back this up.
• 29:38
  David Leake (2): Here's what Acts 3:19 says,"Repent, then, and turn to God so that your sins may be wiped out, that times refreshing may come from the Lord." We'll just pause on that one
• 29:49
  Jordan: sounds good, by the way.
• 29:50
  Jordan: Like, refreshing.
• 29:52
  Jordan: You know?
• 29:52
  David Leake (2): It is good
• 29:54
  Jordan: Jesus.
• 29:55
  Jordan: It's ref- it's a c- a nice diet lemonade.
• 29:58
  Jordan: It's gotta be diet.
• 29:59
  Jordan: Your boy's working on that.
• 30:00
  Jordan: Come on, gang gang.
• 30:01
  David Leake (2): Zero sugar
• 30:02
  Jordan: le- zero sugar, someone's gotta do it.
• 30:03
  Jordan: Diet lemonade on a, a hot summer day.
• 30:06
  Jordan: Like, ah.
• 30:07
  Jordan: You know, like that, that, that is what it is living with the person of the Holy Spirit, and living n- not in your flesh, but living in the Spirit.
• 30:14
  Jordan: It's a
• 30:14
  David Leake (2): Yeah.
• 30:15
  Jordan: life
• 30:15
  David Leake (2): always sounds better.
• 30:17
  David Leake (2): It sounds relaxing, it sounds refreshing, it sounds like this is gonna just give me that little hit of whatever I want, but then you're left with a massive crash, and it's guilt and it's shame and it's...
• 30:27
  David Leake (2): It's like it brings hopelessness,
• 30:30
  Jordan: Yeah
• 30:30
  David Leake (2): brings, you know, jadedness.
• 30:32
  David Leake (2): It, it sucks the life out of your world because we were never meant to live in sin.
• 30:35
  David Leake (2): I mean,
• 30:36
  Jordan: Yeah
• 30:36
  David Leake (2): this is the fall of man.
• 30:38
  David Leake (2): So w- what is, what is Peter...
• 30:39
  David Leake (2): I think this is Peter saying this in Acts 3:19.
• 30:41
  David Leake (2): "Repent, then, turn to God so that your sins may be wiped out," which is beautiful,"that times of refreshing may come from the Lord." We, we start, like, the basis of all this.
• 30:51
  David Leake (2): Repentance brings refreshing, repentance brings new life, repentance brings freedom, refrent- repentance brings new purpose.
• 30:59
  David Leake (2): And so if we're talking about the the idea do Christians have evil hearts, well, let's just first and foremost separate someone who says they're a Christian but is not repentant does have an evil heart because they're not a Christian.
• 31:12
  David Leake (2): Do you know what I mean?
• 31:12
  David Leake (2): Just black and white.
• 31:14
  David Leake (2): They might say they're a Christian, but the idea is actually following Jesus in the way that he lived, which is re- surrender to God, repentance from sin, believing in, in who Jesus says he was, and the whole word of God.
• 31:25
  David Leake (2): I mean, this is all what, what being a Christian means.
• 31:27
  David Leake (2): So you will stay stuck in sin and stay stuck with an evil heart until you get to that, that base starting line
• 31:34
  Jordan: Okay, so let's, let's take this down further because I remember times in my life, not that I'm the standard, but times in my life that I really did feel like I was repenting, but I was still not where I wanted to be.
• 31:46
  Jordan: Can I
• 31:47
  David Leake (2): Right.
• 31:47
  David Leake (2): Yes.
• 31:48
  David Leake (2): Well, you were a Christian, right?
• 31:49
  David Leake (2): Like, at this point in your life, we...
• 31:50
  Jordan: I think so, yeah.
• 31:51
  David Leake (2): No, you, you were.
• 31:53
  David Leake (2): I mean, I, I, I knew you.
• 31:54
  David Leake (2): I, I can att- I mean, you had absolutely prayed not just a prayer, but you had made changes, you had surrendered, but you were stuck in sin.
• 32:01
  David Leake (2): Like, that's probably the way to say it.
• 32:03
  David Leake (2): I mean, as I was too.
• 32:04
  David Leake (2): It's not like a you were stuck in sin and I was, and I was chilling over here, like, you know, living just like Jesus and perfect.
• 32:10
  David Leake (2): But we're using your story, so go for it
• 32:12
  Jordan: I, yeah, but I, I, I'll bring it back to Kai Alpha for a second because what happened is, and, and this is just the nature of working with young and passionate and new believers, and I love them, but what happened is people started to come into this reality.
• 32:28
  Jordan: Like,"Oh, I don't have to be bound by sin anymore," and I feel like there were people in our ministry, and this is why we started to study Galatians, that swung the opposite way, that then was like,"If you ever sin, then you either aren't a Christian, you haven't really repented, or you're not locked in enough." So
• 32:46
  David Leake (2): Right
• 32:46
  Jordan: super apostles that were like,"You guys suck.
• 32:50
  Jordan: If you ever..." Like, anytime anyone would be like,"Yeah, I did this thing again," there would be, like, eyes across the room like,"Oh, man, they're, they're not living in their new nature." And I was like,"Whoa, we are turning into a judgmental, self-righteous, like, if you just really crucified the flesh, then you wouldn't..." So, so let me ask you this.
• 33:11
  Jordan: Yes, Dave, I have a new nature.
• 33:13
  Jordan: Yes, I have a new heart, but p- part of the reality is, like, I am still in a body.
• 33:19
  Jordan: A body is flesh.
• 33:21
  Jordan: The flesh is corrupted through sin nature.
• 33:23
  Jordan: Like, to be born is to be born into sin.
• 33:26
  Jordan: How do you balance, how do you work out the idea that, like, I am in a body, and a body, like, we, like, I don't know, can you ever escape being angry?
• 33:36
  Jordan: Can you ever escape lust fully?
• 33:38
  Jordan: Can you ever escape...
• 33:39
  Jordan: And I have thoughts on this too, but I'm, I, I do think that that is a question that a lot of people have.
• 33:44
  Jordan: Okay, I've repented.
• 33:45
  Jordan: I'm really serious, I'm still in the flesh, and the Bible has a lot to say about the flesh Like, it's not good and, and is that not the, the fate of all man, to die and then eventually escape the flesh?
• 33:59
  Jordan: How do you view the nature, the new nature in comparison to with also living in a physical body?
• 34:06
  David Leake (2): That's a good question.
• 34:07
  David Leake (2): Well, let's just start with this.
• 34:09
  David Leake (2): My understanding of a physical body from the way it's talked about in the scripture, sometimes there's a misunderstanding that flesh is inherently evil.
• 34:19
  Jordan: OK
• 34:20
  David Leake (2): flesh is often neutral.
• 34:23
  David Leake (2): But what, what is, what is of- what is evil is our sin nature.
• 34:26
  David Leake (2): So often when, when the word flesh is used in the New Testament, it's referring to the idea of my sin nature that's baked inside of me, that I'm crucifying, that I'm killing.
• 34:36
  David Leake (2): But I, I think that sometimes, like, if we just say flesh, there's this misunderstanding as if our bodies are evil, whereas, like, they aren't evil inherently.
• 34:45
  David Leake (2): In fact,
• 34:46
  Jordan: Yeah.
• 34:47
  David Leake (2): the, the body that we have now will be resurrected and made new,
• 34:51
  Jordan: Yes
• 34:52
  David Leake (2): at the end, at the end of all things.
• 34:54
  David Leake (2): Like ev- in fact, okay, I'm gonna side note for a second, but I just think it's fascinating.
• 34:58
  David Leake (2): Everybody, whether they're in Jesus or not, whether they're a Christian or not, whether they're gonna spend eternity with God or away from God, everybody will be resurrected.
• 35:07
  David Leake (2): This is the way that judgment works.
• 35:08
  David Leake (2): At the end of all things, God will,
• 35:10
  Jordan: a real body
• 35:12
  David Leake (2): with a real body, yes, not just spirits, not just ghosty angel essence, but, but actual physical bodies, and will stand judgment before God, and those in Christ will be declared clean because of the blood of Jesus.
• 35:24
  David Leake (2): Okay, so everybody everybody will be resurrected.
• 35:27
  David Leake (2): I was saying that to say bodies aren't inherently evil.
• 35:30
  David Leake (2): But if we mean by the flesh fleshly desires like, like carnal, fleshly, sinful desires, I think your question is good.
• 35:39
  David Leake (2): Here's what Romans 7 says, and Romans 7 is a great one for us to read, Jordan, because this is kind of like the heart of this debate.
• 35:48
  David Leake (2): There is a huge debate amongst Christians.
• 35:51
  David Leake (2): And what I'll frame this for you before I, I read some of this.
• 35:55
  David Leake (2): The question is, is Romans 7 about Paul before he was a Christian, or is it about Paul after he's a Christian?
• 36:03
  Jordan: I
• 36:03
  David Leake (2): And e-
• 36:03
  Jordan: if we agree, Dave.
• 36:04
  Jordan: I don't know, I don't know how you view this.
• 36:07
  David Leake (2): Yeah.
• 36:08
  Jordan: this?
• 36:08
  David Leake (2): We probably have.
• 36:09
  David Leake (2): I think, I think I can go either way and still get to the same place.
• 36:13
  Jordan: Fire.
• 36:13
  David Leake (2): So, so
• 36:14
  Jordan: So
• 36:15
  David Leake (2): me, let me, let me read some of Romans 7:1.
• 36:18
  David Leake (2): All right and let me s- where do I wanna start here?
• 36:21
  David Leake (2): We are gonna start...
• 36:22
  David Leake (2): Okay, Romans 7, starting in verse 14.
• 36:25
  David Leake (2): Here's what it says, and let me shift the translation'cause I'm reading a very literal one, and that's, sounds more awkward to read out loud.
• 36:31
  David Leake (2): Okay, here we go.
• 36:32
  David Leake (2): Romans 7:14,"We know the law is spiritual, but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.
• 36:39
  David Leake (2): I do not understand what to do, for I, what I want to do, I do not do.
• 36:44
  David Leake (2): But what I hate, I do.
• 36:47
  David Leake (2): And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good." The law is, is what shows us our sin.
• 36:54
  David Leake (2): It's what shows us right and wrong and how often we fall short of what, what good actually is.
• 36:59
  David Leake (2): Verse 17,"As it is as it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living inside of me.
• 37:07
  David Leake (2): For I know the good I know that good itself does not dwell in me." That is my, in my sinful nature.
• 37:13
  David Leake (2): "For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
• 37:17
  David Leake (2): For I do not do the good that I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do, this I keep on doing." This is very back and forth,
• 37:26
  Jordan: yeah,
• 37:26
  David Leake (2): you know.
• 37:26
  Jordan: messing up.
• 37:27
  Jordan: I don't wanna do this stuff, but I keep doing it
• 37:29
  David Leake (2): Verse 20,"Now if I do not..." Wait.
• 37:32
  David Leake (2): Blah, blah, blah.
• 37:32
  David Leake (2): Try it again.
• 37:33
  David Leake (2): I'm trying to...
• 37:34
  David Leake (2): There's so many dos and wants here.
• 37:35
  David Leake (2): Let me try this again.
• 37:36
  David Leake (2): Now,
• 37:37
  Jordan: don't do things, I want things, I don't want to do the things that I do that I do
• 37:41
  David Leake (2): exactly, Romans 7:20,"Now, if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is, it is the sin living in me.
• 37:49
  David Leake (2): So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
• 37:54
  David Leake (2): For in my inner being I delight in God's law," the inside of me wants to be with Jesus,"but but I see another law at work in, in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me." Then here's a really good verse that illustrates this, 24:"What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?
• 38:15
  David Leake (2): Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in my sinful nature I am a slave to the law of sin." And then I'll just read Romans 8:1'cause it's important.
• 38:28
  David Leake (2): Romans 8:1,"Therefore, there is no condemnation for those who are, who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death." Okay, let's frame that...
• 38:41
  David Leake (2): I guess I framed it already.
• 38:42
  David Leake (2): Let, let's dive in, Jor.
• 38:44
  David Leake (2): Do you wanna give me your thoughts on Romans 7?
• 38:46
  Jordan: Well, it's just the beginning of our conversation.
• 38:48
  Jordan: That is why people like Cliff say,"Yeah, I, I'm just a dirty, rotten sinner.
• 38:52
  Jordan: Who can rescue me from this body of death?
• 38:54
  Jordan: I do the things I don't wanna do.
• 38:55
  Jordan: The things I wanna do, I don't do." Like, here I am.
• 38:58
  Jordan: Romans 7 is Romans 7-ing in my life.
• 39:02
  Jordan: I, I don't...
• 39:02
  Jordan: I, I think, that is where those things come from, and when people read that, they're like,"Yo, that's so me.
• 39:08
  Jordan: Oh, breath of fresh air." Like, that's me.
• 39:11
  Jordan: And, and Paul struggled with sin, and I struggle with sin.
• 39:13
  Jordan: I think that's how a lot of people feel
• 39:16
  David Leake (2): Yeah, absolutely.
• 39:17
  David Leake (2): Do you wanna give me your thoughts on the verse?
• 39:20
  Jordan: I
• 39:20
  David Leake (2): On the scripture passage?
• 39:22
  Jordan: I think those are my thoughts.
• 39:23
  Jordan: My thoughts are, I think it describes this feeling of wanting to do better in your walk with God and wanting to be free from sin, but then feeling stuck in it.
• 39:33
  Jordan: Because he's even describing in that moment, like, Inside I delight in God's law.
• 39:40
  Jordan: Like, I feel like I want to love God's law, but, like, who's gonna rescue me from this body of death?" And then he gives glory to God.
• 39:46
  Jordan: Praise be to God, he gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
• 39:49
  Jordan: I think, I think, you know, we don't have time to go into all of Romans 8 and all
• 39:53
  David Leake (2): Sure, sure
• 39:54
  Jordan: That- that's why Romans is such a dense book.
• 39:56
  Jordan: But he sets up the problem and the reason that this whole podcast exists, and even the discussion I brought up on flesh.
• 40:03
  Jordan: Like, yeah, my flesh is in opposition to the things that I feel like I want to do in my relationship with God
• 40:10
  David Leake (2): Yeah.
• 40:11
  David Leake (2): So the let, let's talk about this.
• 40:13
  David Leake (2): The interesting thing is that throughout this passage, there are things that indicate that maybe Paul is not talking about himself currently.
• 40:19
  David Leake (2): Now, I, I, I think, I think regardless, I think that this is the reality that many Christians find themselves living in.
• 40:26
  David Leake (2): And I mean repentant, real Christians going to heaven that are just feeling full of shame.
• 40:32
  David Leake (2): And listen, I, I think this is what my dad would so often do on this podcast, and I want to reflect that because I think it's, it's the right, right idea.
• 40:39
  David Leake (2): If you are struggling with something, you feel like you are trying to live for God and you just have felt broken and ashamed and miserable and you think God hates you, I think what God wants you to know is Jesus died for you.
• 40:53
  David Leake (2): You know, God loves you desperately.
• 40:55
  David Leake (2): Don't pull yourself away from his presence.
• 40:58
  David Leake (2): Don't pull back from the heart of God.
• 41:00
  David Leake (2): God's heart is for sinners.
• 41:01
  David Leake (2): You know?
• 41:02
  David Leake (2): It, it says that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
• 41:05
  David Leake (2): Jesus loves you desperately.
• 41:07
  David Leake (2): And yes, God's desire for you is to live in victory, but if you are relating to Romans 7 and you feel like you're always down and you're, you're disgusted with yourself and God must be too, I think we have to start by, by realizing that the voice of God calls us to himself, calls us to his love.
• 41:23
  David Leake (2): It's his kindness that draws us to repentance is what the Bible says.
• 41:26
  Jordan: Ja
• 41:27
  David Leake (2): so I, I think we wanna, we wanna, I guess, remind you of what the voice of God sounds like.
• 41:33
  David Leake (2): The Holy Spirit encourages us, you know?
• 41:35
  David Leake (2): He convicts us of sin, but conviction is different than condemnation.
• 41:39
  David Leake (2): Romans 8:1 says,"Now there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." And let's look this up here.
• 41:47
  David Leake (2): Condemnation.
• 41:49
  David Leake (2): It means a condemning sentence or a punishment, punishment.
• 41:52
  David Leake (2): It's, it's this idea of you are dirty, you are unholy, you, you are convictable.
• 41:58
  David Leake (2): You know?
• 41:58
  David Leake (2): Like, like you did the thing.
• 42:00
  David Leake (2): You're not serving time for it, but you should be because you're disgusting.
• 42:03
  David Leake (2): But what Romans 8:1 says,"There is therefore now no condemnation." So just as a pastor, I want to start off by, by saying to whoever feels that way, God loves you, and if you bring your full self to Jesus, you are not under condemnation because his blood is able to do what, what you can't do,
• 42:22
  Jordan: Yeah, and I think, yes, and I think to read Romans 7 and then stop would be silly.
• 42:27
  Jordan: Like, I think you need to keep reading to Romans 8 because that's sort of, y- you're describing Romans 8:1, is sort of the pivot where then he talks about...
• 42:36
  Jordan: Because if you get a new identity, what that means is you should not identify with the old way you used to see yourself.
• 42:45
  Jordan: So Romans 8 is the pivot, at least for me and how I read it, because it talks about what you set your mind on, and then it also talks about how you see yourself.
• 42:56
  Jordan: So I know the concept of flesh is, like, confusing and yeah, your, your flesh isn't inherently evil, like the desire to eat food and to sleep.
• 43:04
  Jordan: Those are, like, fleshly desires that aren't evil.
• 43:07
  Jordan: Like, sleep isn't evil.
• 43:08
  Jordan: Sleep is
• 43:08
  David Leake (2): Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
• 43:09
  Jordan: believe, and some good food is also from God.
• 43:13
  Jordan: Glory to God.
• 43:13
  Jordan: We're gonna eat in heaven.
• 43:15
  Jordan: But, but I think that how you see yourself and how you identify yourself, the thing...
• 43:19
  Jordan: If I could share what I think is the thing I would want anyone listening To, to, to take from this, at least from my perspective, is when you come into Christ, you should not identify with your flesh anymore.
• 43:35
  Jordan: You have to start to identify with your spirit.
• 43:39
  Jordan: You are spirit, and you're you have a new spirit, a resurrected spirit.
• 43:45
  Jordan: His Holy Spirit is now living inside of you.
• 43:47
  Jordan: That's a big deal, and you have to see yourself as that as the new reality.
• 43:53
  Jordan: So whereas before you were just a flesh, and you were just a sin nature, and your heart was deceitful above all things, and who can rescue me from this body of death?
• 44:01
  Jordan: Thanks be to God He gives us the victory.
• 44:03
  Jordan: Now I got a spirit, and I stop identifying with my spirit.
• 44:07
  Jordan: Let me read Romans eight and the part that I think is fired up.
• 44:10
  David Leake (2): Great
• 44:11
  Jordan: who live according to the flesh have their mindset on what the flesh desires.
• 44:14
  Jordan: But those who live accordance with the Spirit have their mindset on what the Spirit desires.
• 44:18
  Jordan: So the mind governed by the flesh," like I think of myself as the flesh, I'm just my desires okay,"the mind governed by that is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace." And then jump down to verse nine.
• 44:29
  Jordan: "You, however, are not of the realm of the flesh, but the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you.
• 44:34
  Jordan: If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they don't belong to Christ.
• 44:37
  Jordan: But if Christ is in you, even though the body is subject to death, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness." The point is, you ha- part of the identity shift is not just, like, gaslighting yourself.
• 44:48
  Jordan: Like,"I am a good person.
• 44:50
  Jordan: I'm, I'm better'cause I was baptized, and I raised my hand." Like, no, you start to see yourself less as the flesh and more as the new spirit living inside of you.
• 45:02
  Jordan: And
• 45:02
  David Leake (2): was right
• 45:02
  Jordan: I think you make that shift mentally, and you're like,"Okay, well, the spirit is growing.
• 45:08
  Jordan: The spirit begins to germinate.
• 45:09
  Jordan: Once the spirit starts to happen, there's gonna be fruit that comes.
• 45:12
  Jordan: You know, I might not be seeing a ton of fruit right now, but I believe he who began a good work in me is gonna carry it on to completion." Like, you start to trust the process of what God is doing in your life.
• 45:22
  Jordan: Sanctification.
• 45:23
  Jordan: Be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
• 45:25
  Jordan: These things start to happen, and you are going to start to live, act, walk different.
• 45:30
  Jordan: But if you don't put your faith in those things, and you just see yourself as a big old ball of sinful flesh who's forgiven, that is what-- Your mindset on that, the result will always be death.
• 45:43
  Jordan: The new identity has to be,"I identify more with the spirit of God in me than the flesh." That's the shift that needs
• 45:49
  David Leake (2): Absolutely.
• 45:50
  David Leake (2): And, and let's come back to that again,'cause I think that's a really good thing to dig even more on, Jordan.
• 45:56
  David Leake (2): That, that it...
• 45:57
  David Leake (2): Well,'cause we're talking about do Christians have evil hearts?
• 46:00
  David Leake (2): So you were talking about the way we see ourselves, the way we talk about ourselves.
• 46:04
  David Leake (2): I wanna come back to that.
• 46:06
  David Leake (2): But let's, let's jump back a second.
• 46:08
  David Leake (2): I wanna expand a little bit on, on Romans 6, Jordan,'cause we're talking about the idea.
• 46:12
  David Leake (2): Okay, so, so what, the way we identify ourselves is the framework that we're gonna live out of.
• 46:16
  David Leake (2): But also, there is something that Paul talks about where Christians should be different.
• 46:21
  David Leake (2): When we're talking about the new me ain't new me-ing, or, or whatever, whatever you said, there is something that I wanna talk about.
• 46:27
  David Leake (2): We've been kind of broadcasting this the whole episode, that there is victory for those that are in Christ Jesus.
• 46:32
  David Leake (2): Here's what Romans 6 says right before Romans 7 it talks about death of Jesus, Roman 6:5.
• 46:38
  David Leake (2): "For if we have been united with him in a death like this, we will also certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
• 46:45
  David Leake (2): For we know that our old self was crucified with him," old self crucified, hung on a cross with him,"so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.
• 46:56
  David Leake (2): Because anyone who has died has been set free from sin." Verse 8,"Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
• 47:04
  David Leake (2): For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again.
• 47:08
  David Leake (2): Death no longer has mastery over him.
• 47:10
  David Leake (2): The death he died to sin he died once and for all, but the life he lives, he lives to God." Now listen to this in 11,"In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin, but alive alive to God in Christ Jesus.
• 47:23
  David Leake (2): Therefore, do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey your evil desires." We, we could stop right there.
• 47:29
  David Leake (2): The thing I want to point out is we all come from a sin, sin nature, and yes, there, there is still a struggle that happens.
• 47:36
  David Leake (2): You know, 1 John 1:8 I think says we all, we all know that we stumble in many ways.
• 47:41
  David Leake (2): Maybe I'm quoting James there.
• 47:43
  David Leake (2): I'll pull that up in a second.
• 47:45
  David Leake (2): Okay, but the idea is that I, I w- I'm talking about there is a struggle.
• 47:48
  David Leake (2): There is, there is a need for us to crucify the flesh.
• 47:51
  David Leake (2): There is a need for us to live according to the Spirit.
• 47:53
  David Leake (2): There is a need for us to decide I'm not gonna live according to what I already crucified, but to live alive with Christ.
• 48:00
  David Leake (2): And, and while we struggle, there's victory for you.
• 48:04
  David Leake (2): I, I think it's like, you know, if you always, like you said, Jordan, if you always feel like a hopeless mess and you're never gonna get free, you're never gonna get free, you know?
• 48:13
  David Leake (2): Bec- because that's your, that's your worldview.
• 48:15
  David Leake (2): It's, it's like the devil wants to design a cage for our mind and our emotions that's like, well, this is the ceiling.
• 48:21
  David Leake (2): Like, the best you can get, unfortunately for you since you're Italian, the best that you can get is just barely above the line of, of clearance into heaven.
• 48:32
  David Leake (2): It's by the skin of your teeth, like one escaping the flames because Jesus' blood is technically strong enough, but just barely because your sin nature is pretty darn strong.
• 48:42
  David Leake (2): Like, that's just not the biblical framework.
• 48:45
  David Leake (2): So, so talking about, like, identity, if you're just like,"I'm a dirty, rotten sinner, the only difference between me and you is the blood of Jesus," it's like, well, yes, but what Romans 6 says is that we ba- been made alive with Christ.
• 48:58
  David Leake (2): That's not the same thing
• 48:59
  Jordan: Yeah, the, the better version of that is like,"I was the same as you." And I think, I think that's fine to say, like,"I was the same, but I, I'm not the same as you anymore." Like, and that...
• 49:09
  Jordan: You, you don't wanna be arrogant with that, but like,"I'm different." Like,"I have the Holy Spirit living inside of me now.
• 49:14
  Jordan: I, I walk in victory." It's, it's...
• 49:16
  Jordan: The, the fight is al- it's already over.
• 49:19
  Jordan: Your dad used to tell a story, I don't remember what war or whatever, but basically there were prisoners of war, and the war was already over, but they just did not know that the war was over.
• 49:28
  Jordan: And as soon as the news reached that camp or prison camp, the guards realized,"Oh, shoot," like,"We've lost the war." And they let the prisoners out because there was no point in holding on.
• 49:40
  Jordan: They needed to get the heck out of there and, and run.
• 49:43
  Jordan: That- that's what happened.
• 49:44
  Jordan: Like, you are being tricked into believing that the gates are still closed and locked, but Jesus already purchased your forgiveness, your freedom.
• 49:52
  Jordan: The chains can fall off.
• 49:53
  Jordan: You just have to believe that, know the truth, and then walk out of the prison that you've put yourself in
• 49:59
  David Leake (2): Absolutely.
• 50:00
  David Leake (2): Absolutely.
• 50:01
  David Leake (2): So long story short, what my answer to do Christians have evil hearts is no.
• 50:08
  David Leake (2): You know, we, we've been made alive.
• 50:09
  David Leake (2): Now, we still have the ability to give into our new nature, but like I read earlier, where was this?
• 50:15
  David Leake (2): Ezekiel 36:26, 27,"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you." That is the new nature we have in Jesus.
• 50:23
  David Leake (2): You know,"I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh." Listen, if you've repented of your sin, then God has not put any battle in front of you that he's designed for you to lose.
• 50:33
  David Leake (2): Like, God wants victory for you.
• 50:34
  David Leake (2): He wants freedom for you.
• 50:36
  David Leake (2): And I think as Jordan said, the longer we identify as dirty, rotten sinners, the longer we're gonna stay caged because the Bible says that you are a saint now.
• 50:46
  David Leake (2): You're alive in Christ.
• 50:47
  David Leake (2): You're a child of God.
• 50:49
  David Leake (2): You're a royal priesthood.
• 50:51
  David Leake (2): You know, you're a son and a daughter of the King, and yes, w- we still struggle.
• 50:55
  David Leake (2): Oh, I, I, I found 1 John 1:8 that I r- wanted to read.
• 50:58
  David Leake (2): Oh, and then I...
• 50:59
  David Leake (2): Here it is.
• 50:59
  David Leake (2): "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." That's what 1 John 1:8 says.
• 51:05
  David Leake (2): But 1 John 1:9,"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." That means we're purified.
• 51:12
  David Leake (2): We're not dirty.
• 51:15
  David Leake (2): We're purified before Jesus because of, of his sacrifice for us on the cross.
• 51:20
  David Leake (2): So I-
• 51:21
  Jordan: will say this.
• 51:22
  Jordan: I think if I, if I could put on my pastoral hat for a second, I, I just think sometimes we're very, very, very harsh on ourselves, and we, in all things, want immediate, immediate, immediate change.
• 51:34
  Jordan: And I think that something immediately happens when you give your life to Jesus.
• 51:38
  Jordan: I think that you immediately get the person of the Holy Spirit.
• 51:41
  Jordan: But there is a time where you are unlearning some patterns.
• 51:45
  Jordan: So there are some things that happen immediately, and then there are some things that happen over months, and there might even be some things that the change happens over years.
• 51:52
  Jordan: And if you just take one week as a sample size, and you're like,"Oh my gosh, I, you know, I had a really empower- powerful encounter with God.
• 52:01
  Jordan: I felt convicted of my sin, but I don't know how different I am," I think you are being overly harsh on yourself, and I think the Lord is patient with you.
• 52:09
  Jordan: I think he's gonna lead you to various moments of repentance.
• 52:12
  Jordan: This is the journey of sanctification.
• 52:14
  Jordan: And so I, I would say not to excuse your sin, but I might say,"Man, give it time." It's like a person that makes a commitment, like,"I am getting a personal trainer.
• 52:24
  Jordan: I'm going on a diet." Okay, the next day I'm not sure if it's the best day to decide if the caloric deficit they're in is, is working.
• 52:33
  Jordan: But I, I promise you, if you start a relationship with Jesus and you talk to him every day and you're aware,"I'm not my flesh.
• 52:40
  Jordan: I'm not my past," six months from now, four months from now, you're gonna look back and you're gonna see a change, and two years from now you're gonna be like,"Wow." And God is gonna continue to conform you into the image of his Son,
• 52:53
  David Leake (2): Mm-hmm.
• 52:54
  Jordan: is that's a lifelong process.
• 52:55
  Jordan: Like, every year I feel like I'm giving up sin patterns or I'm giving up, like, areas that I'm like,"You know, I shouldn't be listening to this music," or,"I have been a little prideful here." Like, God is still working on me, and I hope by 80 I'm way closer to looking like Jesus.
• 53:11
  Jordan: But it is a, it is a journey and a partnership with the Holy Spirit, which is so much cooler also than just a one-time fun experience, you know, punch your ticket and get in.
• 53:21
  David Leake (2): Mm-hmm.
• 53:22
  Jordan: now have a relationship with the Holy Spirit where every day he's making me into a better husband, better dad, better pastor, better son, better father, things like that.
• 53:31
  Jordan: And, and, and I, I would just wanna encourage you to not tap out the second you feel like an old pattern comes back and nips you in the bud.
• 53:40
  Jordan: Instead, look at that pattern and be like,"Wait, wait, wait.
• 53:42
  Jordan: That's not who I am anymore.
• 53:44
  Jordan: I don't identify with that pattern anymore.
• 53:46
  Jordan: Holy Spirit, conform me into the image of your Son."
• 53:49
  David Leake (2): Yes.
• 53:49
  David Leake (2): Okay, so a- as we close, I guess one kind of closing thought as we're wrapping this up.
• 53:55
  David Leake (2): I think one of the traps you talked about was like,"We just gotta lock in more," you know?
• 53:59
  David Leake (2): So, somebody could hear this podcast and feel like,"So it's possible for someone to not sin and do better, and it must be my mindset, but I still suck.
• 54:10
  David Leake (2): Like, I am just falling and falling, and it must just be a defect in me." I think there's a mistake there, too.
• 54:16
  David Leake (2): John 15:4-5 says,"As remain in me as I also remain in you.
• 54:20
  David Leake (2): No, no branch can bear fruit by itself." Pause.
• 54:25
  David Leake (2): That's you.
• 54:26
  David Leake (2): You can't bear fruit by yourself You can't just force yourself to sprout and bloom and blossom and become like Jesus just by yourself.
• 54:34
  David Leake (2): It goes on to say,"It must remain in the vine.
• 54:37
  David Leake (2): Neither c- neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me." This is verse five,"I am the vine, you are the branches.
• 54:44
  David Leake (2): If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit.
• 54:48
  David Leake (2): Apart from me, you can do nothing." So, a- a- if we're talking about the solution, spend time with Jesus.
• 54:55
  Jordan: Abide
• 54:55
  David Leake (2): Abide, yeah, remain in Him.
• 54:57
  David Leake (2): If, if, if you're struggling, look, the, the worst thing to do is to pull away from God.
• 55:03
  David Leake (2): The worst thing to do is to, to skip church, to, you know,"Oh, man, I'm not sure when the last time I've prayed is." Look, get in the Word of God.
• 55:11
  David Leake (2): Just start by reading a couple of verses a day.
• 55:13
  David Leake (2): Get on, like, a simple Bible plan.
• 55:15
  David Leake (2): Put on some worship music.
• 55:16
  David Leake (2): Cry out to God.
• 55:17
  David Leake (2): Ask, ask Him, for Him to show you His heart, because it's not our job to bear the fruit, it's our job to remain in Jesus, and as we do that, we'll become like Him.
• 55:27
  David Leake (2): We'll, we'll bear, bear fruit.
• 55:28
  David Leake (2): And, and Jordan, you mentioned that word sanctification.
• 55:31
  David Leake (2): That's the theological term.
• 55:32
  David Leake (2): That means the process and the journey of becoming just like Jesus.
• 55:37
  David Leake (2): It, it's a road we travel on.
• 55:39
  David Leake (2): We don't get saved and repent of sin and immediately we're perfect.
• 55:43
  David Leake (2): We slowly remain in Him and become transformed to look more and more like Jesus over the course of a journey with Him.
• 55:49
  Jordan: Amen.
• 55:50
  David Leake (2): So
• 55:51
  Jordan: A, a strawberry doesn't have to ch- try...
• 55:53
  Jordan: Like, how hard does a strawberry have to be to be a strawberry or
• 55:57
  David Leake (2): Right
• 55:57
  Jordan: grow?
• 55:57
  Jordan: Like, it just happens natur- That's why I was saying be patient and trust the process because g- He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion.
• 56:04
  Jordan: And,
• 56:05
  David Leake (2): Mm-hmm.
• 56:05
  Jordan: a seed that was planted, and the parable even of the sower, you know.
• 56:09
  Jordan: He scatters seed, and the, the one just grows'cause it's planted in good soil.
• 56:14
  Jordan: Like, yes, right now you might not be where you are, but you continue to do those things and abide.
• 56:20
  Jordan: You are gonna feel yourself growing, growing, growing, and bearing fruit almost, can I say it this way, almost accidentally.
• 56:26
  Jordan: Yeah, fruit is not something we have to strive for.
• 56:29
  Jordan: It is a result of being planted in the person of Jesus Christ.
• 56:34
  David Leake (2): Absolutely.
• 56:35
  David Leake (2): Anything that you want to say in closing?
• 56:37
  David Leake (2): 'Cause I feel like this is one of those topics that depending on what I would've heard in my life, I would feel tense the whole time, and I might f- like close this feeling sort of like a headache.
• 56:47
  David Leake (2): Like,"Ugh."'Cause, like, retreading through the guilt and shame you feel for sin sucks.
• 56:54
  David Leake (2): Like, it makes you feel miserable, and I don't want us to close in a place of where you're feeling like,"Buck up." Like, that, that's the opposite.
• 57:01
  David Leake (2): That's the opposite of where we want to go.
• 57:03
  Jordan: No.
• 57:03
  Jordan: No.
• 57:04
  Jordan: Well, I, I hope they don't hear buck up.
• 57:06
  Jordan: I hope they hear, like, Jesus going Jesus.
• 57:08
  Jordan: Maybe, maybe I'd say, like, if you, if you can trust Jesus that when you die, you'll resurrect, you can trust Jesus that, like, His blood is gonna, in that courtroom scene, He's gonna be, like, paid in full, which is crazy,'cause you've done some wild things and so have I.
• 57:26
  Jordan: If you can trust Jesus for those things, can you not trust that Jesus is doing something in you, and you're more than just your body and your brain and your natural desires?
• 57:38
  Jordan: I think it's not so crazy.
• 57:40
  Jordan: If I'm trusting Jesus for the forgiveness of my sins, for the resurrection of me when I'm dead, for, for this eternal reality and new heavens, new earth, I, I believe in all of that, but I don't think that He's living inside of me, and that's gonna start to change me.
• 57:55
  Jordan: I would just say have faith for that and start to identify with the Spirit of God living inside of you, and not just your brain, your mind, your actions, your habits, your past
• 58:05
  David Leake (2): I love that.
• 58:06
  David Leake (2): I, I, I guess my closing thought...
• 58:08
  David Leake (2): Man, we could spend another 10 minutes on this, but sometimes when we feel shame, it, it becomes the way that we see God and His view of us, and I think some of what stops us is not seeing Him as a loving father, but as a disappointed, you know, as a disappointed master, as a, as an ashamed tutor who's just like,"Oh my gosh, I'm sick of you." Like,"I hope you're sick of yourself," like wants to rub our nose in it.
• 58:36
  David Leake (2): But, but the Lord's our father, you know?
• 58:39
  David Leake (2): He, He, like, He delights in you, and I think our, our attempts to give all that we have to Him a- and to draw close to Him, like that, that makes Him smile.
• 58:49
  David Leake (2): He wants that.
• 58:50
  David Leake (2): He's not expecting perfection.
• 58:52
  David Leake (2): I- if He was, then we wouldn't have d- needed Jesus to die.
• 58:56
  David Leake (2): His blood is stronger than you think.
• 58:57
  David Leake (2): His blood actually is enough for us to be made right.
• 59:00
  David Leake (2): I'm actually preaching on this this weekend.
• 59:02
  Jordan: Come on!
• 59:02
  David Leake (2): it's on, it's on the covenant of salt, which is where our name comes from.
• 59:06
  David Leake (2): And, and one of the reasons we see that God chose this picture of salt when He was describing this enduring promise of faithfulness to His people is because salt is a purifying agent, that you can use it to cleanse wounds or you can cleanse things with it, and that's what, that's what the blood of Jesus is.
• 59:22
  David Leake (2): It's, it's, it's enough to make us worthy.
• 59:25
  David Leake (2): It's enough to make us holy.
• 59:27
  David Leake (2): It's enough to make us worth loving.
• 59:29
  David Leake (2): It's enough to make us, you know, righteous before God.
• 59:32
  David Leake (2): So I think, like, you know, God doesn't just like you, you know?
• 59:38
  David Leake (2): Or let me, let me rephrase this,'cause I, I think...
• 59:40
  David Leake (2): I'll say it like this.
• 59:41
  David Leake (2): God doesn't just technically love you because He has to.
• 59:44
  David Leake (2): Like, God loves you for who you are.
• 59:45
  David Leake (2): God likes the individual parts of your personality.
• 59:48
  David Leake (2): God likes the way He's made you.
• 59:50
  David Leake (2): You're not an accident.
• 59:51
  David Leake (2): You're chosen by God.
• 59:52
  David Leake (2): So if you've repented of your sin, you need to understand that, like, God's love for you is better and bigger and more good than what you're picturing.
• 1:00:00
  David Leake (2): So, so we want to invite you to, like, draw close to God.
• 1:00:04
  David Leake (2): That's what it's all about.
• 1:00:06
  David Leake (2): So yeah.
• 1:00:07
  David Leake (2): Okay.
• 1:00:09
  David Leake (2): Well, we appreciate you joining us again for the Rethink Revive podcast.
• 1:00:14
  David Leake (2): Hope you join us again next time.
• 1:00:15
  David Leake (2): Jordan is gonna probably be on here a little bit more regularly, and we're excited to try out this new format.
• 1:00:20
  David Leake (2): Also, you'll probably notice things are a little bit different.
• 1:00:22
  David Leake (2): We are shifted we have shifted away from being produced through Allison Park Church.
• 1:00:27
  David Leake (2): Now this is sort of a Salt Church primary function, question mark.
• 1:00:31
  David Leake (2): So it'll look a little different.
• 1:00:33
  David Leake (2): If we have tech- technical difficulties, please stay patient with us.
• 1:00:36
  David Leake (2): But again, we're glad you're here.
• 1:00:37
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• 1:00:44
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• 1:00:47
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• 1:00:47
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• 1:00:49
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• 1:00:50
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• 1:00:51
  David Leake (2): All this helps us.
• 1:00:53
  David Leake (2): So we're thankful you joined us again.
• 1:00:54
  David Leake (2): Hope you guys have a great day?