Latest / Stuff Mom Never Told You / The Legend of Deborah

Transcript

The Legend of Deborah · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuffh
0:07
Speaker 1: I ever told your production of iHeartRadio.
0:18
Speaker 2: Welcome to another episode. We're just kind of going down
0:21
Speaker 2: a biblical route. I feel like a little bit. Anie
0:26
Speaker 2: did a great episode recently on Mary Magdalene, and we
0:30
Speaker 2: briefly mentioned another woman from the Bible, and there was
0:35
Speaker 2: some interest in hearing more about her, Deborah, the only
0:40
Speaker 2: judge in the Hebrew Bible. So we wanted to take
0:43
Speaker 2: a moment to kind of talk about her. But I
0:46
Speaker 2: need to put this caveat. It's a shorter episode because
0:48
Speaker 2: there's not really much depth, Like we've seen a little
0:53
Speaker 2: bit of historical context. There's a lot of arguments around her,
0:57
Speaker 2: much like any other women. Figure. I feel like that
1:01
Speaker 2: become fairly controversial in this note. I am going to
1:05
Speaker 2: also put a lot of opinions and feelings in this,
1:09
Speaker 2: so go ahead with that as a caveat as well.
1:12
Speaker 2: I'm going to try not to get too excited because
1:13
Speaker 2: I get extra squeaky when I do. So I when
1:18
Speaker 2: we roll it back, y'all the pollen it's awful.
1:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's bad. It's not joking around. I washed my
1:27
Speaker 1: car and then I came back out gone already.
1:33
Speaker 2: I mean, I feel like it's a personal attack at
1:36
Speaker 2: this point, and I'm fully offended by what is happening.
1:43
Speaker 2: And we've also talked about how climate change has been
1:46
Speaker 2: part of this reason slash, how the way that we
1:50
Speaker 2: have badly set up Oh yeah, our areas has caused
1:55
Speaker 2: even more problems with pollen. So but anyway, done with that.
2:01
Speaker 2: But just obviously I'm not getting any better, So this
2:05
Speaker 2: just be my own new voice.
2:07
Speaker 3: Enjoy karaoke nightes, give me funds.
2:12
Speaker 2: I think I might have a Julie Andrew's problem, not
2:14
Speaker 2: that I ever sing like her, but like not being
2:15
Speaker 2: able to sing for real, for real anymore. I can't
2:19
Speaker 2: hit any notes anymore.
2:21
Speaker 3: That is sad.
2:22
Speaker 2: My days of singing Natalie and Brookleia maybe over.
2:26
Speaker 3: Oh no, I don't say that anyway.
2:28
Speaker 2: Back to talking about Deborah. So she is mentioned in
2:32
Speaker 2: two chapters in the Book of Judges, which follows the
2:35
Speaker 2: stories of the twelve appointed judges who are in charge
2:39
Speaker 2: in leading the Israelites. So it's interesting to talk about
2:42
Speaker 2: these types of subjects at this time in this climate
2:47
Speaker 2: political world, climate of things that are happening, because it's
2:51
Speaker 2: obviously a bigger conversation about like ownership of land and
2:55
Speaker 2: what is promised and what is promised and who is
2:57
Speaker 2: doing what. But we're not talking about that. We're talking
3:00
Speaker 2: about the historical context slash not fantasy contexts. No, I
3:07
Speaker 2: don't know how to put this because I will say,
3:10
Speaker 2: in this dive of trying to figure out the Bible,
3:13
Speaker 2: and I think everyone kind of understands this a little bit,
3:16
Speaker 2: who have maybe separated themselves away from religion, but to
3:22
Speaker 2: try to figure out how factual and how accurate is
3:25
Speaker 2: the Bible, And according to my search, no one really
3:29
Speaker 2: talks about it and or is not allowed on the
3:34
Speaker 2: internets because my search for the first five six pages
3:40
Speaker 2: and read throughs of articles upon articles are all from
3:45
Speaker 2: religious accounts. So I'm sorry, that's really biased. So I
3:49
Speaker 2: can't really use those as in context about whether or
3:52
Speaker 2: not it's historically accurate. I will say there are biblical
3:56
Speaker 2: archaeologists who have discovered battle areas and kingdoms and lands.
4:02
Speaker 2: We know the Egyptians were real. We know that things
4:05
Speaker 2: were built as the Egyptians of late and arras as
4:07
Speaker 2: written in the Bible, so we know this context is real. Now,
4:12
Speaker 2: with all of that, it's a little iffy because I
4:16
Speaker 2: want Deborah to exist. I don't know what I mean.
4:20
Speaker 2: I want her to be real. I want her to
4:23
Speaker 2: be the leader that people didn't think existed. You know,
4:26
Speaker 2: that could have been, but I don't know, we don't
4:30
Speaker 2: actually know with all of that. Yes, she was one
4:34
Speaker 2: of the twelve appointed judges. All of the other were men.
4:37
Speaker 2: She was also the first one to be noted as
4:39
Speaker 2: being a both prophetess and a judge. There are two
4:43
Speaker 2: different things. There are apparently several other prophetess is in
4:48
Speaker 2: the Bible and the Hebrew text that I don't know
4:52
Speaker 2: are often credited as that within that timeframe, but that
4:57
Speaker 2: are now seen as so, but not they were not judges.
5:00
Speaker 2: So judges are very significant, called on by God to lead,
5:05
Speaker 2: oftentimes in battle. So this is who they are. Again,
5:08
Speaker 2: she was first noted as being a prophet is and
5:10
Speaker 2: then rose to the leadership of being a judge of
5:13
Speaker 2: the Israelis. It should be noted that Judges, I think
5:16
Speaker 2: was written by Samuel, who was also a judge and prophet,
5:19
Speaker 2: So no of that they are now. I thought there
5:23
Speaker 2: was a whole other book, the Book of Deborah, but
5:25
Speaker 2: that doesn't seem to be I apparently got that wrong
5:28
Speaker 2: in my head that exists. There are other books written
5:33
Speaker 2: about women, they think about women. Each of those women
5:37
Speaker 2: are typically either women who have our wives or someone,
5:42
Speaker 2: or who have assassinated someone, or who were raped and
5:47
Speaker 2: used as an example.
5:49
Speaker 3: Right, not great, not great.
5:51
Speaker 2: But Deborah was not one of those. I'm a little
5:53
Speaker 2: sad that she wasn't. But again, she does have the
5:56
Speaker 2: two chapters chapter four of Judges in chapter five. Now,
6:01
Speaker 2: the breakdown of her two chapters has a lot of
6:04
Speaker 2: debate about that in itself, such as why they were
6:08
Speaker 2: written the way they were, because apparently the chapter five
6:11
Speaker 2: is also considered the Song of Deborah because of the
6:14
Speaker 2: way it's written, is a lot more poetic, a little
6:16
Speaker 2: bit different. It takes on the account of both the
6:19
Speaker 2: battle and victory of it all, and again it is
6:23
Speaker 2: kind of traditional to have a song of something as
6:26
Speaker 2: like the victory stance of a timeframe. Again, this is
6:31
Speaker 2: supposedly supposed to be from her perspective, as if she
6:35
Speaker 2: did write this, even though it was Samuel anyway. According
6:40
Speaker 2: to so, if you've read through the Old Testament, you
6:43
Speaker 2: may already be familiar with the constant struggles of the Israelites,
6:48
Speaker 2: as they continue to face tribulations and trials which they
6:52
Speaker 2: often fail, they fall for idols constantly, Like it's a constant.
6:56
Speaker 2: I guess we could say that about any group of
6:59
Speaker 2: people constantly fail and are punished pretty severely, including decades
7:05
Speaker 2: of enslavement and being lost in the wilderness. Again, this
7:10
Speaker 2: is kind of that narrative of like, oh, you're going
7:12
Speaker 2: through bad times, this is your punishment, which would come
7:15
Speaker 2: back to later be like that's seemingly wrong on a
7:20
Speaker 2: different level, But I say, neither here nor there. Who
7:24
Speaker 2: knows how we're going to be written decades centuries, centuries,
7:30
Speaker 2: centuries from now. So Deborah was to be around twelve
7:34
Speaker 2: nine BCE to eleven sixty nine BCE, so way back when,
7:40
Speaker 2: way back when, for all the time, and according to studies,
7:44
Speaker 2: Deborah was a leader who often advised under a palm tree,
7:47
Speaker 2: like she was known as the palm judge things a
7:50
Speaker 2: little bit. And one of those reasonings may have been
7:55
Speaker 2: a theory is because she was a woman, she could
7:58
Speaker 2: not be in a home or in an enclosed area
8:02
Speaker 2: with men that she advised, so she would do so
8:05
Speaker 2: out in public under a palm I was thinking, oh, yeah,
8:10
Speaker 2: I guess that makes sense.
8:13
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it does.
8:18
Speaker 2: I mean probably good for her protection too. Anyway, moving on,
8:22
Speaker 2: and she wasn't noted to have like giant speeches or
8:25
Speaker 2: like if you know anything about the story of Moses,
8:28
Speaker 2: he often came down railed upon the people and be like,
8:32
Speaker 2: you are sinning and these are the things that you
8:34
Speaker 2: were gone wrong. He does massive speeches. Mm hmm, Carlton.
8:38
Speaker 2: According to Charlton Heston, I don't know, not just kidding,
8:41
Speaker 2: but like, and she was known to do that. She
8:44
Speaker 2: just privately met with people and let people so it
8:47
Speaker 2: was a little different for that, and she would give
8:49
Speaker 2: a lot of advice. She definitely would be like God
8:52
Speaker 2: told me this, we're doing these things, so you know
8:55
Speaker 2: one of those things. The story goes during the time
8:57
Speaker 2: of oppression from the Canaanite rule, and it was that
9:01
Speaker 2: Deborah who rose up and became the voice of God.
9:05
Speaker 2: So they were in twenty years of oppression enslavement from
9:08
Speaker 2: the canaan knights, and she rose up saying it is
9:11
Speaker 2: time for battle. We're going into battle. This is the beginning.
9:14
Speaker 2: So she goes to she appoints Bayroc or Barack, who
9:20
Speaker 2: she is appointed as the military leader to let him
9:23
Speaker 2: know his time, we're going into battle, you were going
9:25
Speaker 2: to have victory.
9:26
Speaker 3: Let's go.
9:27
Speaker 2: It was great, and only he's like, okay, cool, cool, cool,
9:30
Speaker 2: I'll do this. However, I will only go if you
9:35
Speaker 2: go with me to Deborah. So I will say, she
9:38
Speaker 2: is the only judge who was not also a military leader.
9:43
Speaker 2: And that is also because she is a woman like
9:45
Speaker 2: that is noted. She could not be a military leader
9:48
Speaker 2: for that reason. And in this level of understanding, she's like, okay, cool, cool, cool,
9:52
Speaker 2: I'll go with you because you know this is what
9:55
Speaker 2: I'll do. However, know that you will not have the
9:58
Speaker 2: final victory. So in this whole battle, she lets him
10:03
Speaker 2: know that he would win because God and the angels
10:06
Speaker 2: were with him. So in this battle, there is this
10:08
Speaker 2: conversation that people are seeing and witnessing this battle and
10:12
Speaker 2: they say they can see angels fighting with them. Now,
10:17
Speaker 2: this could be interpretation because there was an unusual storm
10:20
Speaker 2: that happened that did give them a better advantage according
10:24
Speaker 2: again to the Bible, and so maybe within that storm
10:28
Speaker 2: they saw visions of angels. And I'm just theorizing here
10:32
Speaker 2: on that one. He said again he would go, but
10:34
Speaker 2: only if she went with him. And according to again
10:37
Speaker 2: the research in Theologians and all the things that have
10:42
Speaker 2: missed my search engine up because I am now once
10:45
Speaker 2: again inundated with Christian information. It's saying that she again
10:52
Speaker 2: was the only woman to be with them, not the
10:54
Speaker 2: military leader. And so they go together. Yay, all right,
10:58
Speaker 2: so we're going together with that Barrock was the chosen
11:01
Speaker 2: one and does win. And again this kind of goes
11:06
Speaker 2: back and forth of like why Barack did not want
11:08
Speaker 2: to go by himself, why Barack really wanted Deborah to
11:11
Speaker 2: go with him, all these things. I don't know if
11:15
Speaker 2: he was already a military leader. It kind of sounds
11:18
Speaker 2: like she had a vision of a person and it
11:20
Speaker 2: was like it's you, and he's like okay, type of conversation,
11:25
Speaker 2: which happens a lot when it comes to Faith's stories. Again,
11:28
Speaker 2: Barrock did not have the privilege of the final victorious
11:32
Speaker 2: moment of killing the Canaan a general Cesyria, but that
11:36
Speaker 2: honor would be handed to a lowly woman, Jayu, who
11:40
Speaker 2: was also from the tribes of Israel. However, she may
11:44
Speaker 2: have been a tentmaker while her husband was a weapons maker,
11:48
Speaker 2: so all of these things. But he was a weapons
11:51
Speaker 2: maker for Seceyria. But if they were under enslavement, obviously
11:55
Speaker 2: they had to do these things. Type of conversation with
11:58
Speaker 2: that the song that Deborah goes on to talk about
12:00
Speaker 2: how God assisted them in battle by bringing down rain
12:03
Speaker 2: and storms again that were not usual for that season,
12:06
Speaker 2: and how the mothers, specifically the mother of Ceceyria, would
12:10
Speaker 2: look out at her window and lament in prayers and
12:14
Speaker 2: hoping to see her son return from battle. Spoiler of
12:17
Speaker 2: the lot Kei did and Seiria, who went to rest
12:22
Speaker 2: in his tent with a nice bowl of milk, would
12:25
Speaker 2: soon have a tentpole driven in his head thanks to jail. Now,
12:31
Speaker 2: oh yeah, either way, there's a lot about Jaia I
12:37
Speaker 2: think fantasy level. I'm not sure as it's written about,
12:42
Speaker 2: like how one theory is that she was afraid as
12:47
Speaker 2: an israel Israelite to be seen with Ceyria, and she
12:52
Speaker 2: was there under not great circumstances and has visited him often,
12:59
Speaker 2: and I say that theblicly visited, and so she wanted
13:03
Speaker 2: to make sure to kill him and be like, hey,
13:06
Speaker 2: are you looking for this man? I have him here
13:08
Speaker 2: in this tent essentially, and so she did that for
13:11
Speaker 2: that reason others goes that she was a hero for
13:14
Speaker 2: Israel and knew what she was doing and plays an assassin.
13:18
Speaker 2: There is some conversations about how many times she had
13:20
Speaker 2: sex with Cesyria and whether or not she actually all
13:24
Speaker 2: these There are these theories that I was like good God.
13:28
Speaker 2: It's necessary. It wasn't obviously because it wasn't involved in
13:31
Speaker 2: the scriptures. But it has been told outside of I
13:38
Speaker 2: don't know how factual any of that is, or how
13:40
Speaker 2: accurate it is into any biblical references that we don't see,
13:43
Speaker 2: because obviously I cannot read Hebrew, so I will not people.
13:47
Speaker 2: I cannot read Greek. I cannot give you those translations.
13:51
Speaker 2: Once upon a time, when I thought I was going
13:53
Speaker 2: to be a missionary, I really believed I would learn
13:55
Speaker 2: these things and read the Bible in full of this context.
14:11
Speaker 3: So there's a.
14:12
Speaker 2: Lot of theory about who she was. Within the Song
14:14
Speaker 2: of deb Bro chapter five, this is how they write it.
14:17
Speaker 2: Judges chapter five, verses twenty fourth or twenty six says
14:20
Speaker 2: this extolled above women by jail, extolled above women in
14:24
Speaker 2: the tent. He asked for water, she gave him milk.
14:27
Speaker 2: She brought him cream in a lordly dish. She stretched
14:30
Speaker 2: forth her hand to the nail, her right hand to
14:33
Speaker 2: the workman's hammer, and she smeked s Sarah. She crushed
14:36
Speaker 2: his head, She crashed through and transfixed his temples. So
14:42
Speaker 2: very poetic for saying she killed them, she killed them good,
14:47
Speaker 2: she killed them real hard.
14:51
Speaker 3: Whoa.
14:52
Speaker 2: And there are many of art depictions. Not know you've
14:55
Speaker 2: seen any of the Renaissance paintings of this, like really
14:59
Speaker 2: Bowld picture. She looks very voluptuous and this like like
15:03
Speaker 2: obviously very wealthy, pompous man is laying on her lap.
15:09
Speaker 2: Hmm yeah, yeah, yeah, and you see her with a
15:12
Speaker 2: giant steak in her hand. And that's the picture that
15:14
Speaker 2: we see. I will say, when I was talking about
15:16
Speaker 2: how she had had sex with him so many times,
15:19
Speaker 2: that's how they say she tired him out, quote unquote.
15:22
Speaker 2: And it wasn't milk oh, that it was a metaphor.
15:27
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know why that's necessary, but you know,
15:31
Speaker 2: I find that interesting that that has to be a
15:32
Speaker 2: part of that text.
15:35
Speaker 1: I we talked about that a little after the Mary
15:38
Speaker 1: Magdalen episode. It does seem like why we got to
15:41
Speaker 1: make this sexual all the time? Uh, why do we
15:44
Speaker 1: gotta make this romantic all the time.
15:46
Speaker 2: Maybe it really really they really not needed to like
15:51
Speaker 2: and again, it could absolutely have something to do with
15:53
Speaker 2: the fact that a woman should not wield that much power,
15:56
Speaker 2: even though the punishment to a man was giving women victory,
16:00
Speaker 2: which yes, we're going to come back to a little bit,
16:02
Speaker 2: but would only be okay is if her only power
16:06
Speaker 2: is sex cervitude.
16:10
Speaker 1: And that's not to say I don't know, you know,
16:14
Speaker 1: historical distortion.
16:15
Speaker 3: I know people.
16:18
Speaker 1: Had some hang ups, not always, but sometimes hang ups
16:22
Speaker 1: talking about sex.
16:24
Speaker 3: But I guess what I'm saying is maybe they're right.
16:28
Speaker 3: But it does feel kind of like.
16:29
Speaker 2: Hmm, right, it's convenient now, I will say again, because
16:34
Speaker 2: I don't want to diminish the idea of Deborah in
16:40
Speaker 2: jail in that they were significant parts of this story,
16:44
Speaker 2: but it does feel like when it in context of
16:47
Speaker 2: like so many conversations of like of women who have
16:51
Speaker 2: done big things or giant things, like many people called
16:55
Speaker 2: Deborah a warrior because she did go out in battle,
16:58
Speaker 2: because a man wouldn't go by himself or as the
17:00
Speaker 2: leader of himself, all of these different things, but like
17:03
Speaker 2: at the same time to be seen as diminishing this
17:07
Speaker 2: is not necessarily a story of power about women, but
17:09
Speaker 2: more about lack of manliness of men.
17:13
Speaker 3: Mm hmm, you know what I mean.
17:14
Speaker 2: It's kind of like, okay, it can't be one or
17:16
Speaker 2: the other, like you know what I mean, right, But
17:19
Speaker 2: all that to say is that she did do all
17:21
Speaker 2: of that. She did help in the war, she ended
17:24
Speaker 2: that war, and Deborah rightly gave her praise for that
17:29
Speaker 2: in a very poetic manner. So going back to Deborah,
17:33
Speaker 2: she is actually introduced as Deborah the wife of Lapidote,
17:37
Speaker 2: which is not uncommon to be so and so's wife,
17:40
Speaker 2: to be so and so's daughter, to be so and
17:42
Speaker 2: so's mother, all these things, because lineage is obviously a
17:45
Speaker 2: very big conversation if you I was just telling Annie
17:48
Speaker 2: off Mike, on Mike, but off Mike that when we
17:50
Speaker 2: were younger, my grandparents great grandparents would have all the
17:54
Speaker 2: kids read the Christmas story. And I'm not talking about
17:57
Speaker 2: like Mama and her kerchief thing. I'm talking about the
18:00
Speaker 2: biblical reference to when Jesus was born in the manger,
18:03
Speaker 2: and it starts off with this lineage, and it is
18:07
Speaker 2: hard to read and as a twelve year old try
18:09
Speaker 2: and figure out how to do that in King James version.
18:16
Speaker 2: But one thing I can tell you is they do
18:19
Speaker 2: love to talk about lineage, so having a connection, having
18:22
Speaker 2: a family connection is not unusual. However, some have argued
18:27
Speaker 2: that this title wasn't necessarily just about the domestic link
18:31
Speaker 2: that she had, but maybe the other definition, So lapidote
18:35
Speaker 2: actually means in Hebrew torches or fire or flames rather,
18:40
Speaker 2: and so some people have taken this into a definition
18:43
Speaker 2: of a woman of torches or a fiery woman, and
18:46
Speaker 2: they're like, okay, maybe because they never really mention him. Again,
18:49
Speaker 2: they never mentioned a husband at any point in time.
18:52
Speaker 2: To be fair, she's very important leading wars, so maybe
18:56
Speaker 2: that would be why, and he may just be in
18:58
Speaker 2: the background helping keep the house together. I don't know.
19:03
Speaker 2: They never talk about children nothing. So with that, this
19:07
Speaker 2: was not a big proponent to who she was. Being
19:11
Speaker 2: a wife was not a big thing. This could be
19:14
Speaker 2: a translation in saying that she was a fiber woman
19:17
Speaker 2: and a woman of flames. Again, she does have a
19:19
Speaker 2: title of being a woman of command, a woman of
19:22
Speaker 2: a warrior, a judge, which was so it's just a
19:26
Speaker 2: big title in this point in time. So there is
19:30
Speaker 2: that moment they're like, Oh, maybe there is a bigger
19:33
Speaker 2: depth to this. Interestingly, again, I don't know about her lineage.
19:39
Speaker 2: I can't say she's real. I don't know. Ray listener,
19:44
Speaker 2: Hello friend of the show, long time listener, Love you
19:47
Speaker 2: Hay who often says this great means love you and videos.
19:51
Speaker 2: But maybe she would have more contexts she was really
19:54
Speaker 2: excited about this episode because I don't the things that
19:56
Speaker 2: I thought I knew seems like maybe I made up
19:59
Speaker 2: in my head because I was so hungry for strong
20:02
Speaker 2: women when I was in the church that I had
20:05
Speaker 2: desperately clung to any of these things. But there's not
20:09
Speaker 2: much conversations about her lineage in this moment or even beyond. Again,
20:14
Speaker 2: like I said, that title of being a fiery woman
20:17
Speaker 2: seems pretty on brand with the rest of her short chapters.
20:25
Speaker 2: Of course, those who are religious would argue, of course
20:28
Speaker 2: she is real and existed, and that there's evidence of
20:31
Speaker 2: the battles that may have ensued. So this battle was
20:34
Speaker 2: known for its chariots, like it had the I think
20:37
Speaker 2: at that point in time the largest amount of chariots
20:40
Speaker 2: being used, which is also why a storm would be
20:42
Speaker 2: really bad for them and why it didn't work. So
20:46
Speaker 2: Sisarah would have had this collection of this army, this
20:49
Speaker 2: giant army with amazing chariots coming through that work so well.
20:54
Speaker 2: They do also talk about one tribe that did not
20:57
Speaker 2: participate on land war because they were see based the
21:03
Speaker 2: tribe of Daniel Dan Dan. I believe I should have
21:07
Speaker 2: put it the figurin. I'm not a theologian. I have
21:09
Speaker 2: not said this in depth. These are just from what
21:11
Speaker 2: I'm reading all the different articles. If I'm reading that
21:14
Speaker 2: go back and forth again. I have seen many articles
21:17
Speaker 2: about the archaeologists going back and forth about what they found,
21:20
Speaker 2: what they didn't find, where they found it, how they
21:23
Speaker 2: found it, the dating is and being corrected incorrect. I
21:27
Speaker 2: feel like that there's a lot of like politics and
21:29
Speaker 2: soap opa drama in that industry. That's just me just
21:33
Speaker 2: through the back and forth they have. But they have
21:35
Speaker 2: a lot of arguments trying to disprove each other.
21:38
Speaker 1: I feel like I think that's the whole thing theologian is.
21:44
Speaker 3: You're like, no, you're wrong, But.
21:45
Speaker 2: Even archaeologists, like the Biblical archaeologists have them like you
21:49
Speaker 2: carbon dated that wrong. I'm sorry to tell you this.
21:52
Speaker 2: You use the wrong time. Brame like well, Dane because
21:55
Speaker 2: they even argue about the books. They talk about how
21:58
Speaker 2: most likely at one point they were saying that the
22:02
Speaker 2: Book of Deborah, the Song of Deborah the Judges were
22:04
Speaker 2: one of the older written ones, and they're like, actually
22:08
Speaker 2: it may have been written more recently than you know.
22:10
Speaker 2: They're like, wait, what so even the timeline for that
22:16
Speaker 2: has been all over the place, because they also talked
22:17
Speaker 2: about the fact that Judges Chapter four probably wasn't written
22:21
Speaker 2: before chapter five. Actually chapter five was written first, but
22:25
Speaker 2: they were published differently. So there's again, y'all, this is
22:30
Speaker 2: what makes my head swim on these things that I'm like,
22:33
Speaker 2: I really don't understand this level. But also in this
22:38
Speaker 2: conversation is they just keep discovering new things because they
22:41
Speaker 2: keep going out and try and find discover things. Unfortunately,
22:46
Speaker 2: with all of the things that are happening in Palestine,
22:48
Speaker 2: I don't think any new discoveries have been made recently.
22:50
Speaker 2: I will say in twenty twenty two they did find
22:53
Speaker 2: North Carolina. A group from North Carolina, you U and C.
22:56
Speaker 2: Chapel hill I believe found the oldest mosaic in an
23:01
Speaker 2: Israeli temple that depicts the battle with Deborah and Cicera
23:05
Speaker 2: so they did find that in jail, so they have
23:08
Speaker 2: a mosaic that honors Deborah and Jail from I think
23:13
Speaker 2: they said like early thousand. So you know that's cool. Yeah,
23:22
Speaker 2: that's very cool. That happened in twenty twenty two. So
23:24
Speaker 2: they did find that depiction, which, again, things are being
23:29
Speaker 2: discovered all the time. That Apocrapha was kind of like
23:32
Speaker 2: one of those things that like pull it out, put
23:34
Speaker 2: it in, but follow it out. And I went down
23:35
Speaker 2: a whole rabbit hole about the apocrypha and what was
23:39
Speaker 2: included and what wasn't included, and who includes it and
23:41
Speaker 2: why they don't include it. There's a lot of arguments
23:45
Speaker 2: to it as well. Yes, my head was swimming after that.
24:02
Speaker 2: Moving on, many will cling to the whole faith debate
24:05
Speaker 2: when it comes to this conversations argument Again in historical
24:09
Speaker 2: accuracies are often brushed aside with the fact that some
24:12
Speaker 2: claims are founded and some claims seem like it's close
24:15
Speaker 2: to or interpretation of as holy evidence, like this is like, eh,
24:20
Speaker 2: kind of it would have been around here type of conversation,
24:23
Speaker 2: which is really hard to denote, like it's really hard
24:26
Speaker 2: to know, we've talked about this. It's really hard to
24:28
Speaker 2: see it when we talked about a female first, who
24:30
Speaker 2: was truly first is because we don't know who is
24:33
Speaker 2: dictating what is first, who is writing down, who is
24:37
Speaker 2: covering up. It's the same level I wanted to note
24:40
Speaker 2: about the apography y'all, I thought I knew and understood it.
24:45
Speaker 2: I did not because I thought I didn't realize the
24:53
Speaker 2: Book of Ruth, you know that exists. Book of Ruth
24:57
Speaker 2: and Book of Esther exists, the only two women I
25:00
Speaker 2: believe in the Old Testament that was named after. There
25:05
Speaker 2: was another part of Book of Ruth that they left
25:08
Speaker 2: out and it's now considered part of the apographa. So
25:11
Speaker 2: it was like, huh, and the only the Catholics acknowledge it,
25:17
Speaker 2: But they will also say don't take it to heart.
25:21
Speaker 2: So here you know, there are a lot of controversies
25:26
Speaker 2: on how churches tell the story. Of course, with the
25:30
Speaker 2: basis between the Catholics versus Protestants, that's a huge debate.
25:34
Speaker 2: We talked about why women can't be popes in a
25:37
Speaker 2: lot of the Catholic churches recently we kind of mentioned
25:41
Speaker 2: it in our Religious Trauma about women not being in
25:44
Speaker 2: the ministry as well, and this is kind of one
25:47
Speaker 2: of those things where they use her as an example,
25:51
Speaker 2: used Deborah as an example of why women can be like,
25:54
Speaker 2: look what happened here? This was amazing and having a
25:56
Speaker 2: woman heroin with a woman being the Assassinah, it kind
26:01
Speaker 2: of really ruffled a lot of feathers and it still does.
26:04
Speaker 2: It still does. So there have been several people who
26:06
Speaker 2: have made sure to make arguments as to why Deborah
26:10
Speaker 2: wasn't as cool as you think she was type of
26:12
Speaker 2: conversation or as as as big deal as you think was.
26:16
Speaker 2: Some argue that Deborah was called because there was no men,
26:20
Speaker 2: which is kind of odd because obviously there was a
26:22
Speaker 2: lot of men. There was military day won Wars, Right,
26:26
Speaker 2: so I don't under what do you mean, bro? What
26:29
Speaker 2: do you mean maybe in that level of like strong enough,
26:35
Speaker 2: loud enough in comparison to Maybe that's what they were saying,
26:39
Speaker 2: that Deborah actually put herself in this position so that
26:43
Speaker 2: she wasn't actually called by God. She was just like
26:45
Speaker 2: I'll do it, which seems like a weird argument because like, okay,
26:50
Speaker 2: then we should have more women doing that. Why wouldn't
26:52
Speaker 2: more What do you mean.
26:55
Speaker 3: Right, It's just that she's not cool enough for God?
27:00
Speaker 2: I'm not really okay that because she didn't speak to
27:04
Speaker 2: crowds like the others, that her work was kind of invalid.
27:10
Speaker 2: They said she wasn't truly prophesying, she wasn't truly leading
27:14
Speaker 2: because the crowd cann't see it. I guess what is
27:17
Speaker 2: it with men trying to be loud again, we kind
27:21
Speaker 2: of already talked abo earlier, but that she was actually
27:23
Speaker 2: a punishment on the Israeli people, that she was called
27:28
Speaker 2: to be the leader to embarrass Israel, to embarrass them
27:32
Speaker 2: as a community, to say that y'all are so sinful
27:34
Speaker 2: that even a woman can lead you, because y'all are
27:38
Speaker 2: that bad, y'all that bad, down and out, So a
27:41
Speaker 2: woman being ooh, how shameful, how shameful? You'll be marked
27:45
Speaker 2: with shame for having a woman as a leader. And
27:48
Speaker 2: then again, it's not a stretch of saying having a
27:51
Speaker 2: lovely woman, because Deborah kind of in that same story,
27:54
Speaker 2: she does reinforce this idea that having a woman doing
27:57
Speaker 2: a powerful thing is a punishment to men. So you
28:00
Speaker 2: can't really like it feels hypocritical in that level.
28:05
Speaker 3: Right to be fair, Ford Barock.
28:11
Speaker 2: He probably did see this as a punishment for himself
28:16
Speaker 2: because of that time frame. But I don't know. I
28:20
Speaker 2: want to give props to him, being like, nah, but
28:21
Speaker 2: I trust this woman to lead me as well as
28:25
Speaker 2: I want her to be on my side because that's
28:26
Speaker 2: the only way I can have victory. So I feel
28:29
Speaker 2: like he's a green flag. I don't know, is that right?
28:32
Speaker 3: Is that weird?
28:35
Speaker 1: As long as he was cool about it, as long
28:37
Speaker 1: as it wasn't like a super cowardly you die kind
28:41
Speaker 1: of thing, then yeah.
28:43
Speaker 2: He obviously didn't try to steal credit from jail.
28:46
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe he just wanted to be on the outside.
28:49
Speaker 2: He was just like, I'll do what I have to do,
28:52
Speaker 2: but I'm cool with everybody else doing what they need
28:54
Speaker 2: to do too. Yeah, I'm not ashamed of this, let's go.
28:59
Speaker 2: Maybe that was the problem. He didn't have enough shame
29:01
Speaker 2: for them.
29:02
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh yeah, that could be it.
29:05
Speaker 2: So would that. Many have used her as an example
29:09
Speaker 2: for again why women should be in the ministry or
29:11
Speaker 2: should be allowed to be in the ministry. Boy, people
29:14
Speaker 2: are not happy. People are very unhappy with this idea,
29:18
Speaker 2: saying comments that just this was the old Testament, nothing new.
29:20
Speaker 2: We don't follow that, And I'm like, really, because that
29:23
Speaker 2: seems not to be a thing for any other context, for.
29:26
Speaker 3: Y'all, yeah, only when you want to.
29:29
Speaker 2: I mean, we have a giant war right now based
29:31
Speaker 2: on the claims, and we have Protestant people clinging to
29:36
Speaker 2: it and have clung to it. Yeah, as part of
29:40
Speaker 2: their political stance.
29:43
Speaker 3: Yep.
29:44
Speaker 2: So what do you mean, bro? What do you mean?
29:47
Speaker 2: And men like Josiah not Nichols, who writes for striving
29:51
Speaker 2: or maybe owns striving for Eternity, is one of the
29:54
Speaker 2: many men who are adamant that Deborah was a punishment
29:58
Speaker 2: for Israel at the time, for such a sinful time.
30:02
Speaker 2: And this is what he wrote, Female pastors are a
30:04
Speaker 2: judgment against a simple rebellious church. And he's in referencing
30:08
Speaker 2: why Deborah was appointed and why this is not a
30:12
Speaker 2: good example of why women should be ministers. It clearly
30:16
Speaker 2: shows the church does not hold to the authority of scripture.
30:20
Speaker 2: The church needs to repent and submit to the clear
30:22
Speaker 2: teachings of God's word. So if you have a female pastor, yeah,
30:28
Speaker 2: you need to repent.
30:32
Speaker 3: Oh okay, you.
30:35
Speaker 2: Know, And this is the reason publishing. I would also
30:38
Speaker 2: like to insert here that after the battle was won,
30:42
Speaker 2: Deborah remained judge for that forty years of peace.
30:48
Speaker 1: Yeah.
30:49
Speaker 2: So for who they're saying is not a you know,
30:55
Speaker 2: a good leader or a punishment, she shows him to
30:58
Speaker 2: be doing a good job. Yeah, because those timeframes.
31:03
Speaker 3: Were ugly, like it was not good.
31:05
Speaker 2: It was up and down and up and down again.
31:08
Speaker 2: It's interesting to see because I don't we don't really
31:10
Speaker 2: see much about her life specifically in any of the
31:15
Speaker 2: other things. You know, when I'm there at peace, they
31:17
Speaker 2: don't really talk about what is happening then, just so
31:19
Speaker 2: when it comes to upheaval. I did also want to
31:22
Speaker 2: mention that she so that battle and baraque Barrick was
31:28
Speaker 2: mentioned in Hebrews by Paul or those who were writing
31:33
Speaker 2: for Paul, but not Deborah. Deborah was conveniently left out
31:37
Speaker 2: in that conversation, which feels about on point of how
31:41
Speaker 2: I feel about Paul. I will leave it out of here,
31:44
Speaker 2: but I'm just saying there's also an I just kind
31:47
Speaker 2: of found it interesting. An apostle that was around during
31:51
Speaker 2: the time of Paul who was left out of the
31:55
Speaker 2: Bible often Junia, who was also known as Mother of Apostles,
31:59
Speaker 2: which also given to the name of Mary Magdalen, which
32:02
Speaker 2: we talked about previously. There's like this interchanging of them,
32:06
Speaker 2: but whether or not she truly existed or who was
32:10
Speaker 2: who was first and was named the only female apostle apostle.
32:18
Speaker 2: It's interesting how they these people are left out, they
32:21
Speaker 2: are women left out, or they're bunched up, so they're
32:24
Speaker 2: not giving individual credit. So there's a little level of
32:27
Speaker 2: conversation in that. Deborah is pretty significant again being the
32:31
Speaker 2: only judge who helped win battles, who went into battle
32:36
Speaker 2: and did it proudly like she's like gool, let's go,
32:40
Speaker 2: but still try to keep the standards of decorum. I
32:43
Speaker 2: guess if she was the prophetess, the judge of the
32:48
Speaker 2: under the Palm, as she was known at that point
32:50
Speaker 2: in time, she kept peace in Israel and prosperous for
32:54
Speaker 2: forty years where they were no longer enslaved and won battles.
32:58
Speaker 2: So there is a lot to be said. I really
33:00
Speaker 2: wish there was more information. I really wish we could
33:04
Speaker 2: have seen the aftermath of what that looked like. But
33:07
Speaker 2: she she held her own in the Bible. But still
33:12
Speaker 2: many don't like the credit at all. They want to
33:15
Speaker 2: see her as a negative light. Unfortunately.
33:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is very unfortunate, and it's extremely unfortunate that
33:25
Speaker 1: even today we're still having these conversations. People are still
33:31
Speaker 1: trying to discredit Deborah and other women in the Bible.
33:41
Speaker 1: And I guess you know, piece is a bad thing now,
33:44
Speaker 1: so she messed up on that front as well. Probably
33:51
Speaker 1: what a punishment.
33:55
Speaker 3: Wow, listeners, do let us know if you know anything else?
34:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would love to hear more.
34:02
Speaker 1: Yes, if there's any other figure from the Bible or
34:07
Speaker 1: any any religion really you'd like us to talk about.
34:10
Speaker 1: The Bible would be easy. It's just because we know
34:13
Speaker 1: kind of basics about it. Yeah, let us know about that.
34:17
Speaker 1: And then if you have any thoughts about what's going
34:21
Speaker 1: on with women in churches and all of that stuff,
34:24
Speaker 1: you could contact us in a number of ways. You
34:27
Speaker 1: can email us at Hello, at stuff Wenever told You,
34:29
Speaker 1: dot Com. You can find us on blue Sky, I'm
34:31
Speaker 1: Moms a podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff
34:34
Speaker 1: I've Never Told You. We're also on YouTube. We have
34:36
Speaker 1: some merchandise at coom Bureau, and we have the book
34:38
Speaker 1: you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks as
34:39
Speaker 1: always too, our super produce Christina or Excider Pruce, Ma
34:42
Speaker 1: and your contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you
34:45
Speaker 1: for listening stuff I never told you. Instructure of by
34:47
Speaker 1: heart Radio. For more podcasts from My heart Radio, you
34:49
Speaker 1: can check out the heart radio app Apple podcasts, or
34:51
Speaker 1: if you listen to your favorite shows, oh