Latest / Leaders In Payments / Vinodh Poyyapakkam, CEO of Coris | Episode 274

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Vinodh Poyyapakkam, CEO of Coris | Episode 274 · Leaders In Payments

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Leaders in Payments podcast, where we talk to C-level leaders from across the payments landscape.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: We'll be discussing the products and services that impact the payment space today, as well as trends and predictions for the future of payments.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: We will also hear stories from our guests about their journeys to the top.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: I think in the longer term, in the next 5 to 10 years, payments and, in general, risk management will become more and more invisible.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: Risk management is still very visible today when you look at it.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: There are a lot of seams around it.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: You can still see escalations around, like Twitter and other social media, but I think a lot of those will go away with AI coming more to the fore and companies are also going more cross-border and global and things like that.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: That's happening as well.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: That also means more risk, but I also think AI will help better manage those risks.
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: That was Vinod Poyapakam, the CEO of Chorus, and he is my special guest on this episode, episode 274 of the Leaders in Payments podcast, and I'm your host, greg Myers.
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: Chorus provides modern risk infrastructure that helps small businesses manage risk.
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: Vinod and I talk about Chorus, what makes it unique in the marketplace and how important it is to provide small businesses tools to help fight fraud and manage risk.
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: Vinod goes on to talk about his professional journey as well as what he's passionate about, both professionally and personally.
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: We've got a great episode ahead, so let's get started.
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: Hi Vinod, thank you for being here and welcome to the Leaders in Payments podcast.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me, greg, nice to meet you here.
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: Nice to meet you here too.
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: So let's dive right in and we'll circle back to your professional journey in a minute, but tell our audience a little bit about yourself, maybe where you grew up, where you went to school, where you currently live, a few things like that.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: I was born and raised in India, more specifically the southern part of India.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: I'm from a humble background and I saw really my parents how important it is for small businesses to be able to get financial products seamlessly.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: So it was ingrained pretty early on for me back then and I did my bachelor's back in India and then came to US when I was 20 years old to do my masters.
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: It was over 20 years ago and it was pre-911.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: So it feels like so long ago but it still feels pretty fresh and I live in California now and that's my quick background.
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: So let's talk about the company Chorus.
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: So tell our audience what Chorus does.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: So Chorus is building risk and data infrastructure for companies that serve small businesses.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: What that means is we are building data and tools effectively and efficiently serve the micro and small businesses, not just here in the US, but across the world, because we've seen like companies are selling more and more outside the US as well, not just here.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: So that's one of our key focus areas.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: We are starting with providing alternative data on small businesses, such as their business registration information, online review patterns, website signals and other risk-relevant data for decisioning.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: We also recently launched a much more risk-focused platform called Fuseo.
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: Okay, and who's your target audience?
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: so you're privately focused on payment companies.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: Could be a payment facilitator, payment processor, or could even be software companies that are offering embedded payments.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: Today, especially with the recent trend in the last few years, that's been a goal focus as well for us are there certain verticals that you can get this data for, or is it really almost any small business?
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: so?
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: we started off with more the brick and mortar side of small businesses, given a lot of their data policy that's there, but then we were able to get really good data on them.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: But then eventually we also focused on online merchants as well, especially the e-commerce side of things.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: That's been my background more on the online side previously, so we do both offline and online pretty much any vertical grade, your sort of nasty on what vertical merchants are.
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: How do you go to market?
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: Do you have a direct sales team?
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: Do you work through partner channels?
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: How do you go to market?
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: So we primarily target payment companies and software platforms today to see how we can help them manage your risk, if they are taking on any sort of risk liability at all.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: Today I'm the sales person here.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: I'm doing the founding sales.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: We were founded last year and I've been doing it since then because I actually want to be the only one talking to our Customers.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: Are prospects at this point to truly understand what are the pain points, how we can help them?
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: Are we building the right things for them?
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: All of that?
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: So that's the reason like I'm the one, only one doing today, you will eventually build out our sales force more next year, but right now I'm the only one going after that.
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: Let's pretend I'm a payment facilitator, I'm a software company and you're pitching me.
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: How do you go about talking to the payment facilitators like what's a common use case that they would use your services for?
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: If you're a software company and you're looking to offer a better payments today, right, there are multiple options, as you know.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: You can just do plain referral to someone, like a stripe or a paper that's been there for long enough at this point.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: Or, on the other end of the spectrum, right, you can go become a registered payment facilitator.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: There are a ton of companies helping you with that as well.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: But then that comes with like managing risk compliance, everything.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: You'll be registered facilitator to a bank or a credit processor and all that.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: But then there are middle options.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: More recently, you have payback as a service companies that are helping you offer branded payments without having to own risk.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: And then you have stripe, where you can use stripe to offer a better payments, but you still need to manage risk.
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: So we are mostly focused on the platforms that work with stripe today.
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: They offer embedded payments through stripe, but they have to take on risk liability, like credit and fraud risk.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: And, given software platforms are not like financial services companies, risk is not Necessarily in grain in the way they think about some of these payments stuff.
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: So, helping them with the risk infrastructure, giving them the right risk data and also helping them like, how should we think about like managing risk, what should be a risk strategy and all that?
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: That's really our Sweet NASA.
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: I have a background in the whole payback space as well, so I know that risk aspect is always a challenge, right, the decision that they have to make whether to take on the risk or not.
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: And then, if they do take it on, do they have the people who are knowledgeable and then do they have the tools they need.
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: So it sounds like there's definitely an opportunity in the market for what you're doing.
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: The way I think about it is software companies.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: They want to dedicate their effort, they want to dedicate their bandwidth to building their core software to help their users.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: Right, they should not be, in my opinion, and also I don't think I think most of them don't want to be building risk infrastructure or risk software to process payments.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: They would rather buy that from somewhere else who specializes in that.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: So that's how we think about it.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: Like, how can we be the risk engineering team or risk product person for these companies?
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: They can still offer the best experience possible for their customers without having to worry about, like, how to manage risk and all of that.
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: In the payments and fintech industry.
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: Merchants and their customers have increased expectations around omni-channel commerce.
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: So, in collaboration with NMI, the fully integrated payment solution built to scale, we've launched the Be Solid campaign where, in this series, we'll explore the ability to accept payments anytime, anywhere, using any device.
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: We'll dive deep into mobile acceptance via contactless tap on phone, qr codes, wallets and more.
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: We will hear from companies like Othvia, canalote, google and more.
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: To listen to the latest episodes, visit leadersandpaymentscom or nmicom.
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: Slash resources, slash podcasts.
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: In a world full of squares and stripes, be solid, what would you say?
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: Differentiate your company from your competitors out there.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: The way I look at it, because I've been in the risk phase for the last almost 13 years or so by now and very familiar with a lot of the companies in the risk phase today, specifically, most of the companies are focused on payments fraud or offering more of a generic risk engine.
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: Like a rule engine, like a no-code rule engine, is very popular these days.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: A lot of them offer it because they want to be able to cater to everyone possible, whether it's a lending company or a payments company it could be issuing, it could be any of that.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: On the other hand, we try to be very hyper focused on helping only the folks in the merchant risk phase, especially in payments.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: We know that space really well, the problems in that space really well.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: We truly believe, actually, that we can build something that can add value to that space, whether it's an onboarding stage or ongoing monitoring of merchants, but that's really the focus area for us.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: One of the things we say here quite a bit at Coor is we're mostly competing against Google search, spreadsheets and sales, because a lot of the companies are still using those trifecta of tech stack, in my opinion, which is using Google search and having data and spreadsheets and using Salesforce as CRM primarily managing things To us.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: We are just competing primarily against them as a competitor.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: That's the way we see it today.
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: We've talked about already one trend in the industry, and that's obviously the software company's embedding payments.
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: But where do you see the payments industry headed, say, in the next five to seven years?
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: I'm sure you know this by now.
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: Like the last 15 years or so, right, there's been a ton of innovations in the payment space.
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: It's always evolving because payments is always essential right For any business.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: That's how they collect revenue and all that.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: I expect a lot of innovations in the next couple of years itself.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: I know there are a lot of fears about AI more recently, especially on the fraud side and all that, but I actually see a lot of positives coming out of it to help payments go much smoothly.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: For example, knowing what a business does right it takes a lot of effort today manually and all that but I think AI can truly help us get a real good sense of what a business does and how much they can be trusted, how much privileges they can be given for processing payments or accepting payments and all that.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: I think in the longer term, in the next five to 10 years, payments and, in general, risk management will become more and more invisible.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: Risk management is still very visible today when you look at it.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: There are a lot of seams around it.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: You can still see escalations around, like Twitter and other social media, but I think a lot of those will go away with AI coming more to the fore and, like you know, companies are also going more cross-border and global and things like that.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: That's happening as well.
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: That also means more risk, but I also think like AI will better manage those risks.
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: I mean some are already doing this, but I'm curious your opinion because you've been around this space.
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: Software companies are embedding payments at a level we've never seen before.
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: But do you think they will embed other financial products and if so, how does your company view that?
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: Whether that's lending products, insurance, checking accounts, what's your view on sort of embedded finance?
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: Inputed.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: Finance is pretty hard right now, as you know, because everyone has seen how the likes of Shopify and Doze makes most of their revenue from financial products using the software using the core software as a way to get businesses in but then making most of the money through financial products or fintech products.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: Right Payments is where everyone starts off, because that's how they can enable their small business customers to start collecting revenue.
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: I talk to platforms every week, a lot of platforms, and they all have aspirations to offer other products as well.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: But I think it really depends the sequence of what should you offer after payments, like should you offer insurance?
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: Should you offer lending?
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: Should you offer payroll?
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: Should it be a banking?
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: I think it really depends on the vertical.
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: It really depends on their customers, what they really want.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: But I definitely see that's the way things are going to happen, where more and more platforms offer more and more financial products for their customers to do all the business in one place.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: The example I usually give is like previously, small businesses used to go to the banks to get their financial products.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: You stand in the line and get things done right, but now banks are coming to where the small businesses are operating and that's where these software platforms have made that happen, where businesses can come and run their business, use their software as their operating system and then banks can come or other financial companies can come and offer financial products, all happening in one place and there is a lot of context as well to offer financial products.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: So your bank doesn't have to ask hundred questions like before.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: Now there is a lot more context around what a business does to offer a contextual financial product.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: I think it's net positive across the way for everyone in the ecosystem.
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: Let's switch gears a little bit and talk about you.
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: So tell us about your journey, how you got to be the CEO there at Chorus.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: I co-founded the company last year with my co-founder, so I became the CEO and my co-founder and I worked together before for six years.
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: He was the head of risk engineering and data science, so he automatically took on the CTO role.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: So I had to do the non-CTO role, which is the CEO role.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: I said To me I think about it as like.
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: I've been in this space for a while, I've managed people for a while.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: I've been a leader in other places as well.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: More recently, I was at a company called VPay as the head of risk, and VPay was acquired by JP Morgan Chase a few years ago.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: I learned a lot there.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: But even before VPay, the one thing I learned is you don't need to be managing people to be a leader.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: It's a mindset.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: Anyone can be a leader, even if you're just starting your first job.
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: You can be a leader in your company.
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: That's the way I look at it.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: Yes, I'm here today, but again, you don't have to be a CEO, you don't have to be a CXO or any of that to be a leader.
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: Actually, You've worked at large companies and now you're the co-founder and CEO of a smaller.
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: I'm not sure you call yourself a startup, but a smaller company.
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: So how's that transition been?
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: It's definitely different.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: So previously you have a very narrow space.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: You're operating in Sure, you're busy, but you have a very narrow space.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: You're doing very I would say you're doing a finite number of things in terms of what makes sense for that space.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: But now you have to do everything, whether it's buying snacks for the team or actually running payroll, or talking to customers or working with legal.
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: It's everything you do.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: And the other thing is you actually have to figure out what else you're not doing.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: What are you not doing?
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: What are the risks that could be there for the company?
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: How do you actively be risked?
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: That's six cents.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: You probably won't have so much when you're working at a large company before Sure, you're thinking about, like, what else I'm missing?
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: Sometimes You're trying to see around the corner, but as a founder of a startup, of a small company, you are forced to do all of that in a sense, where you always have to think about, like, how do I do risk my company?
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: Right to go to the next level.
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: So what are some things you're passionate about?
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: So, maybe one work-related passion and one personal passion.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: Work related.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: I'm super passionate about payments in general, tracking how things work across the world, whether it's a launch of UPI in India or faster payments in Brazil and other countries In general how payments happen, because there are a lot of cool things happening.
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: I mean, bitcoin was there for a while.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: I've been tracking that.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of things.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: So that's one thing I've been very passionate about over the last few years.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: The other thing I read up quite a bit as around geopolitics in general, trying to understand how things work in different countries, what's happening, what's moving.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: Obviously, there have been some trouble times recently in the last couple of weeks.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: Generally, looking around the world, I hope Sainer Mines prevail and better things happen.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: But those are things I try to follow up outside of work.
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: As someone who's been in this space for a while and has a lot of experience at both large and small companies, curious to get your perspective on this.
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: So someone graduates from college or university and they look at payments in Vintech and say, hey, this is a hot industry, I want to build a career in this space.
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: And maybe they're interviewing for a job there at Chorus and they say, hey, what do I need to do to be successful in this space?
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: What would you tell them so?
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: Greg, you know this.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: I mean payments is a place to be right To learn new things every day.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: There is always something fun.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: There's always something new to learn here.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, I still don't know a lot.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: I remember spending five years at PayPal and feel like, okay, I know something about payments.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: And then I go work somewhere else at ISO and then see, whoa, whoa, what are these things that have no idea what these are, Right.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: So there's always totally new things you're going to learn.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: So I think I would say for anyone coming in right, take one day at a time, try to learn what's there, what's new.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: You're never going to learn up everything.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: There's so much to do.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: You probably will take a few years, but that's okay.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: Ultimately, it's all common sense.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: That's the way I tell people.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: Whether it's payments or risk, it's all common sense.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: You're trying to do the right thing for customers, for them to be able to take payments, for them to be able to make money and then have a better life.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: That's really what we are trying to do in the payment space.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: So start with them.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: Start with them as a users and see how the products you are working with are delivering to make their life better, and if you think something doesn't make sense, feel free to question that, especially if you're new to this space.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: You have a fresh pair of eyes, so you should take advantage of that, in my opinion, because people like me who have been in this space for too long, we are somewhat jaded.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: We are still looking at it with the same lens and I think that's where people coming in new will have a different pair of eyes and they can have a fresher perspective, and I think they should take advantage of it.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: I try to take advantage of it.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: A lot of times when there are newer people, I ask them what would you change, given they have fresh pair of eyes?
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: I actually think that's a positive for them.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: They should leverage that to their own advantage, in my opinion.
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: I like that's good advice.
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: Before we wrap up, a couple of things I wanted to touch on that you said I want to double click on them.
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: You talked about a little bit and I think today a lot of people are connecting it least in payments with fraud and risk.
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: Are you guys using in your tools and, if so, how are you using them?
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: Do you think there's more applications outside of fraud and risk in the space?
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: Any insights on that?
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: We are using a I today, but we're also very careful to not use the eye for the sake of it is always the high cycle.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: You can get on and say, oh, I'm also using a I company will do it.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: What we try not to do.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: That you're really looking at like, what problems are users are facing?
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: Is that a problem worth selling for them?
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: Like where they feel like, yeah, if you solve this problem, that make my life better.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: Yes, then let's look at like, how do we solve it?
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: What are the best ways to solve it?
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: Right, I is the best way to solve it.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: Sure, let's use it.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: So, for example, you're very familiar with how all the payments company.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: They have to come up with what mcc a merchant is in.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: It's been there for so long and the mcc is used for a variety of reasons, not just for risk reasons.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: It's used in various places.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: Right, but coming up with that, right, especially if you're a horizontal platform or a general payment process, right, it's some more man low today, some more subject to given how many mcc are there.
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: And I'm asking the customer okay, what industry are you in, work mcc you're in?
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: And they gonna pick whatever the first thing they look at right and yeah, that sounds like me and they're gonna pick it, and then you're trying to come up with mcc and then you have to do it manually and subject to me.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: So we thought that might be a Way to solve this more elegantly and much better for our users.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: So we actually use the I there to come up with like mcc classification of merchants automatically based on all the data about them that's online, including the website, including how they describe themselves, another information that's in the website to come up with our own classification of mcc and ike's code for a given small business.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: So we are like Lot of really really good positive feedback about that in terms of how helpful it is, how it's actually much better than even what they could have come up with on their own family.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: So I think because the models can do really well in terms of like getting the nuances right and then coming up the right mcc right, the night's code, so that.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: So we found a to be very helpful there.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: So that's one example.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: But we're also very careful and not using a for the sake of using.
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: You mentioned bitcoin, so I wanted to double click on the whole crypto and blockchain world.
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: Do you see that getting back into the positive light and do you see a future there for those in the payments industry?
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: I'm not entirely sure on that, right.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, I still struggle to see valid like a ten x use case coming out of bitcoin that could make people's life and expert in terms of what the traditional finances not helping, right?
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: I mean this one use case around cross-border money transfer.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: A lot of folks are talked about, but again, it's not entirely clear how it is going to make it much, much better there.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: This probably something I'm missing, I feel, but again, I'm not entirely sure as well.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: I think there are definitely opportunities more for blockchain, some of those things done.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: I know you and some of the bigger banks are experimenting with that, even central banks.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: I've been experimenting with that recently, I've seen.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: I think it's still early, but it's also not clear how much helpful it's going to be, whether it's just a cycle or if it's actually there are some real use cases that can be unlocked.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: What do you use of blockchain and bitcoin?
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: All that?
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: well then, I would cover a lot of ground already.
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: Obviously, we've talked about the company and your background in the payments industry as a whole.
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: Is there anything else you'd like to add before we wrap up the show?
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: It's great to be in payments space.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: It's great to be helping folks, especially in the risk space, because payments is crucial for the economy and then having payments go through seamlessly and without too much friction.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: Being in the background is helpful for everyone and that's really how we feel about like helping our customers in terms of solving the risk problems.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: And great it was great chatting with you.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me and thanks for the opportunity to help share our perspective.
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: Thank you for being on the show.
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: I know your time is very valuable, so I really appreciate you being here, and to all your listeners out there, I thank you for your time as well, and until the next story.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us this week on the leaders in payments podcast.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: Make sure you visit our website at leaders in payments dot com where you can subscribe to the show and where you'll find our show notes.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: If you enjoyed listening, please share on your social channels as well.