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That Time a Swedish Queen Became So Enlightened, She Quit Being the Queen · Ridiculous History

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: for tuning in. Let's get a big shout out to
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: our super producer, mister Max Williams.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: Max stops saying whoop, whoop, whooping it up too much.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: I feel like you guys are jumping on the intro.
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: No jumping.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: What do you mean We're bouncing and you see me
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: doing my karate moves. I'm just trying to get pumped.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: I thought the mat cool moves. Max is getting whoops.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: Ben's got his representing the Brown and acl hat on.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: You guys know about the Brown, not me, the ups.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: You were Noel Bro, that's me. I am Noel brown Man.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: Not to be confused with ups, though it happens more
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: than you'd think.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Is that true?
• 1:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: True? Always like where's my package, dude, I'm.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: Like, I'm not UPS, I'm Nol Brown And they're like,
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: I'm so confused?
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: Are you FedEx? And you're liked.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: Some people only know how to relate to the world
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: in terms of delivery services, and I really fity those people, frankly,
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: but I also have empathy for them.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, empathy is important.
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  Speaker 3: Uh.
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  Speaker 1: This is also a great entry into a conversation we're
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: going to have today about monarchies and how sometimes people
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: at the top might have a little bit of an ego. Yes,
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: speaking of well adjusted folks, my name is Ben Bole
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: and yeah, and your name is ridiculous historian. Yes, you
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: were speaking to the individual you out there there, And
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: speaking of empathy, why don't you have a little for
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: us and the show and leave us a five star
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: review on Apple Podcasts Because that would be cool and
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: it makes us happy, and it keeps the show in
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: a discoverable form so people can find it, and it
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: makes our bosses like us better, so do us as solid.
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: Maybe if we get some really fun ones up there,
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: we'll like read them on the show.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: Hey. Also, guys, I don't know if we're going to
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: keep this on air, but we're not joking in our
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: shows when we say our bosses will check in with us.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: I wrote to the King of Podcasting and see the
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: King of Cartoons as well well. He definitely visits Berning Man.
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: I believe the Burning Man is going on as we speak.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: Wrote to the guy and asked him if he had
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: any advice about getting a pilot's license.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: Because, of course the King of podcasting has a pilot's license. Yes, yeah,
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: we are, of course talking about our benevolent Lord, Robert
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: Pitchman Esquire, who's actually really cool dude.
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: Definitely.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: We both met him in person a couple of times,
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: and he's not nearly as scary as one might think
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: a king of a thing as huge as podcasting might be.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: We are, in fact talking today about cabbages and kings
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  Speaker 2: and even queens.
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  Speaker 3: In fact, that's mainly what we're on about today.
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  Speaker 1: Could you open with this quote the Max found us
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  Speaker 1: from King James the sixth.
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  Speaker 3: M hm, the beloved King James the sixth quote unquote.
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  Speaker 2: Sure, he sums it up thusly, the state of monarchy
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  Speaker 2: is the supremest thing upon earth.
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  Speaker 3: He seems to be a fan, for.
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  Speaker 2: Kings are not only God's lieutenants upon earth and sits
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  Speaker 2: upon God's throne, but even by God himself they are
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  Speaker 2: called gods.
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  Speaker 3: King James, how could you possibly know that?
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  Speaker 2: All?
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  Speaker 3: Right? This is the Bible king, right, Yeah, this is the.
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  Speaker 1: Guy who looked at an ancient religion by this point
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  Speaker 1: in his life and said, I have some notes.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, I could do better to get even more into
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  Speaker 5: the weeds about how where James was. James was Scottish,
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  Speaker 5: so he was Catholic, and so everyone thought that he
• 4:13
  Speaker 5: was going to bring back Catholicism after Henry Yeth and
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  Speaker 5: gotten rid of Catholicism. But he's like, he actually, wait,
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  Speaker 5: there's a religion I could put my name on.
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  Speaker 3: Cool, I'll have that please.
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  Speaker 5: And he was so unpopular that his son, who carried
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  Speaker 5: on his legend, got beheaded.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, on purpose, on purpose, totally. Well.
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  Speaker 2: The funny thing is, though, what that quote might belie
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  Speaker 2: is that today we're actually talking to some degree about
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  Speaker 2: a benevolent monarch, relatively speaking, you know, one who had
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  Speaker 2: somewhat more of a measured approach to ruling.
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  Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah, agreed. We're doing a bit of a
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  Speaker 1: bait and switch with noble intent. There was, around the
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  Speaker 1: same time our buddy Jimmy was ruling his throne, there
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  Speaker 1: was another person, another monarch, female Christina, described as a
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  Speaker 1: colorful figure and a subject of fascination by the Library
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  Speaker 1: of Congress. Let's go to Sweden. We'll find that Queen
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  Speaker 1: Christina was born in December of sixteen, twenty six. And
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  Speaker 1: just so you know, folks, back in the sixteen hundreds,
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  Speaker 1: in every part of Europe it sort of sucked to
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  Speaker 1: be a woman.
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  Speaker 2: Imagine that you're saying people weren't treating women with the
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  Speaker 2: utmost respect and chivalry and moral integrity.
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  Speaker 3: Perish the thought. I'll tell you what's funny.
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  Speaker 2: It's almost even indicated to some degree by the way
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  Speaker 2: this person is named in history. You know, usually when
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  Speaker 2: you see king's name, they have like a house attached
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  Speaker 2: to their name, or they have like you know, it's
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  Speaker 2: like front and center. But when we see Christina written about,
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  Speaker 2: she's just Christina of Sweden, which is kind of badass
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  Speaker 2: in a way, but also makes you wonder there was
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  Speaker 2: that intentional as to not connect a woman to a
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  Speaker 2: great house because she was a member of the House
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  Speaker 2: of Vasa. But you don't really see that in the
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  Speaker 2: reporting in the historical records very much. But you are right,
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  Speaker 2: she was highly educated. Ben she received many of the
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  Speaker 2: benefits that only a male heir we get. But since
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  Speaker 2: she wasn't only child, she was the only option, and
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  Speaker 2: it was determined that she would one day rule Sweden.
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  Speaker 2: So she became quite enlightened, let us say, from a
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  Speaker 2: very early age through studies of the arts and politics
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  Speaker 2: and poetry and philosophy and all of that. She had
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  Speaker 2: some pretty big names in her tutorial Bullpen and her motto,
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  Speaker 2: in fact, was pretty awesome. It kind of applies today,
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  Speaker 2: or I wish it would, maybe more so, wisdom supports
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  Speaker 2: the nation.
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  Speaker 1: This amazing character did something that many monarchs back then
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  Speaker 1: and indeed today, would find ridiculous. She decided to walk
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  Speaker 1: away from power. Now, how did this happen? To understand that,
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  Speaker 1: we got to learn a little bit more about this monarch.
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  Speaker 1: She's the daughter of King Gustav second Adolph and Maria
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  Speaker 1: Eleanora of Brandenburg. This name will sound familiar because we
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: mentioned Eleanora in a previous episode not too long ago.
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  Speaker 2: Turn your mind in your podcast browser to April of
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  Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, the year of our Lord. Sadly, though,
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  Speaker 2: Christina did lose her father at a very young age,
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  Speaker 2: and Britannica had this to say about that sad event.
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  Speaker 2: After her father died in the Battle of Lutzen, Christina,
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  Speaker 2: his only heir, became Queen elect before the age of six.
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  Speaker 3: By his order.
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  Speaker 2: She was educated as a prince with the learned theologian
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  Speaker 2: Johannes Mathai as her tutor, hopefully getting that right. M
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: A T T h Iae. I'm thinking Matthi is probably right.
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  Speaker 2: Five regents, headed by the Chancellor Axel Oxenstierna, governed the country.
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  Speaker 2: We got another real fun name coming up. Man, then
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  Speaker 2: I'm gonna let you give a role too in the
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  Speaker 2: old pronunciation hole.
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  Speaker 1: Now, this is going to be one of the points
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  Speaker 1: in the show where I gently, diplomatically with great affection,
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: roastar buddy Max.
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  Speaker 5: Max, you get the joke I wrote, right, Yes.
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  Speaker 1: I get the joke such that I am requiring you
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  Speaker 1: to explain it on air. There are millions of people listening.
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  Speaker 1: They want to know why you, out of all the
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  Speaker 1: words you could have written, you said our Christina was
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  Speaker 1: an intellectual person and you, out of all the words
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  Speaker 1: you could have used, chose this one.
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  Speaker 5: Was it a clock bisc Vieah? Yeah, So for for
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  Speaker 5: those who are wondering, if you type in Swedish cookie
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  Speaker 5: into Google, this is the first one that comes up.
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  Speaker 5: So she's she's a smart cookie is what I wrote.
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  Speaker 5: But she's an intellectual. Whatever this word.
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  Speaker 2: Is, I don't want to offend anyone, but I would
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  Speaker 2: conjecture that it's it's c h O, K L A,
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  Speaker 2: D B I, S k v I e R. And
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  Speaker 2: it's funny because, like in a lot of I guess
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: European languages, you have sort of similar sounding words like
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  Speaker 2: struggle is chocolate and some form of biscuit is a cookie.
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  Speaker 2: So I'm thinking this means chocolate cookie. I'm just guessing.
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  Speaker 1: But smart cookie is a joke, right, like a masterful
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  Speaker 1: macarn or macaroon.
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  Speaker 2: I love, but I do feel like this particular word
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  Speaker 2: might imply it is of the smart chocolate variety.
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  Speaker 5: I believe you are correct. Yes, none of this matters
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  Speaker 5: in the story, but I have to put it in.
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  Speaker 3: It's okay.
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  Speaker 1: I thought it was good.
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  Speaker 3: It's a fun word. It's a fun word to say,
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  Speaker 3: and I think we all did our best.
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  Speaker 2: But she was indeed that she was very, very bright,
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  Speaker 2: and that was bolstered by the fact that she was
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  Speaker 2: surrounded by the most high quality of tutors.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, she had opportunities that would not be available to
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  Speaker 1: most other people in Northern Europe at the time. If
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  Speaker 1: you go to her biography in King's College, you will
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  Speaker 1: find that Christina was or ascended to her thrown in
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  Speaker 1: sixteen forty four. She opposed contemporary political powers, and she
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  Speaker 1: did so against the advice of her keepers. There were
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  Speaker 1: a bunch of people always saying, you know, there's always
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  Speaker 1: some version of Henry Kissinger, right, especially the Heights of Power.
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  Speaker 1: So there were a lot of folks saying, oh, look
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  Speaker 1: at this, it's a chick. We will tell them what
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  Speaker 1: to do in r puppets, Yes, right, and she said, nah, nah.
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  Speaker 2: I'm gonna go my own way, right Ben, you know,
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  Speaker 2: and it's his history. We do always see those kind
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: of toxic whisperer type figures. To take it to fiction,
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: which is often inspired by history and Lord of the Rings,
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  Speaker 2: you have the Grima worm tongue character that's sort of
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  Speaker 2: like whispering evil deeds into the king's ear, you know,
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  Speaker 2: who is of course under an evil spell by the
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: White wizard Sorrowmon. But in a Game of Thrones you
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: might have a character, for example, like little Finger. Do
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  Speaker 2: you do you see Kissinger. I'm to take it aside
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  Speaker 2: and have this Kissinger corner here. Do you see him
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  Speaker 2: as that kind of figure sort of this sort of
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  Speaker 2: like toxic power behind the throne, kind of like whispering,
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  Speaker 2: you know, sweet nothings into the ruler's ears.
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  Speaker 3: And like pulling strings from behind the scenes.
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  Speaker 1: I'm met of once. I don't think he would describe
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  Speaker 1: himself as toxic. I know he wouldn't describe himself as ToxS.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: But we are we are talking history here.
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  Speaker 2: History seems to definitely describe him as toxic, as do
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  Speaker 2: you quite often when you bring him up.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, terrible guy.
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  Speaker 2: No, I'm with you, man, but I'm just saying I'm
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  Speaker 2: historically speaking, Like, you see these types of figures all
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  Speaker 2: the time, and Christina wasn't having it. You know, you
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  Speaker 2: would think that because of her gender, that it would
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  Speaker 2: be really easy for her to be manipulated, simply because
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  Speaker 2: it was just kind of the way women were taught
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  Speaker 2: to behave to be docile, you know, to defer to
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  Speaker 2: the will of men. But because she was so highly educated,
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  Speaker 2: and it doesn't seem like her education was like censored
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  Speaker 2: or you know, compartmentalized, she was armed with some serious
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  Speaker 2: power in the form of a very sharp intellect.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and she was a consummate politician. She was able
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  Speaker 1: to navigate very difficult things, especially in a tense environment,
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  Speaker 1: and she ran into financial issues with with her kingdom.
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  Speaker 1: But she did also prevent a couple of things that
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  Speaker 1: would have been for these people at this time on
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  Speaker 1: the level of a world war. She she was the
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  Speaker 1: kind of person who, to your point, Noel, the kind
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  Speaker 1: of person who considered being a monarch. She thought of
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  Speaker 1: it like it was her day job. Her main thing
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  Speaker 1: was learning more about the world in which she lived.
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  Speaker 1: She got up at five am roughly every morning. She
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  Speaker 1: would find people that she had heard about or folks
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  Speaker 1: that wrote things that interested her, and she would say,
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  Speaker 1: come hang out, Oh what's your name? Take heartes? Is
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: it okay if I call you Renee?
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: I also think, and I also am, and she certainly
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  Speaker 2: was ben I think another thing that we see throughout
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  Speaker 2: history is that and actually cribbing this a little bit
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: from the season finale of the House of the Dragon.
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  Speaker 2: But those who seek power and thirst for it are
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  Speaker 2: often the ones that deserve it and are capable of
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  Speaker 2: wielding it the least. So someone like Christina, who kind
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  Speaker 2: of has it foisted upon her because there's no other options.
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  Speaker 2: She isn't someone who was just craving that power, and
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  Speaker 2: therefore she handled it with an appropriate amount of respect
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  Speaker 2: and deference. And she wanted to do good, I think,
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  Speaker 2: and to rule in a magnanimous way, and I.
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  Speaker 3: Think it's pretty rare.
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  Speaker 2: I think, as we've indicated already, that this is the
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: attitude taken on by a monarch who so often are
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: just entitled monstrosities.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, ooh, entitled monstrosities. That's pretty good.
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: I come out with a good one every now and again.
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  Speaker 2: But Ben, what you say, we're approaching something resembling a
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: world war.
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  Speaker 3: This doesn't sound good.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: No, she navigated and de escalated geopolitical tensions of the
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: time that could have led to kinetic war in a
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  Speaker 1: very bad way. As a matter of fact, the ability
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: and diplomatic acumen she exhibited inspired people to call her
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: the Minerva of the North. Minerva is a reference to
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: the ancient Greco Roman god of wisdom and justice and
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: law and victory.
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  Speaker 5: But she'll definitely throw a spirit through you, but also warfare.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, she'll put a boot up your ass if you
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: mess with her country.
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  Speaker 3: No, it's true, and it's a really great nickname.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: Half of the times you get these rulers with nicknames
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: implying their greed, bloodthirstiness or ethel. He was unprepared, he
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: didn't do his homewark. But Minerva of the North that
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: is a show of great respect historically, because as we know,
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: these nicknames, they don't really stick until after the fact.
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: The historian looked on her fondly, especially.
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: Considering the stupid system that is monarchy, right, not good?
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: I think can we all kind of agree on that
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: that monarchy bad? That? Yeah, I think that's not a
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: hot take anymore.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: I've been on record with it.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, But I just mean, you know, like having the
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: most important, powerful job in the land based solely on
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: your parental heritage.
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: I guess right. It just seems like a losing recipe.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: And we see it time and time again throughout history,
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: and of course here in America we see it in
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: another form, you know, a monarchy by a different name
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: at times with political dynasties, which I know you also
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: have a beef with them.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: Well, I would say it's less of a beef and
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: more of an observation that history will find relevant. I
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: would also point to Max on this one. Theurg's got
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: to by the time they fell, a lot of those
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: folks were in charge of things, and they were physically
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: incapable of pronouncing their last name.
• 18:15
  Speaker 5: Oh god, it was it was. I read the obituary
• 18:18
  Speaker 5: of the autopsy of the last one. I don't think
• 18:22
  Speaker 5: we could do an episode.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: I don't think we should.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: Are we talking because of degradation over generation breeding?
• 18:31
  Speaker 5: Yeah, the Habsburgs were like the poster children of.
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: They were like the human equivalent of the bulldog.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: Yes, sorry, no shade to the bulldog, but that is
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: a troubled beast that probably should not exist.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: They came for wolves. What we're seeing here. The reason
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: where stable the cartoonish nature of monarchy is to show
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: you that for most of the people alive at the
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: time in this kingdom, our pal Christina was like them
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: winning a lottery. Right. A person who is automatically assumed
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: to be in charge of the country also turns out
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: to be very well read, to be intellectual, to exercise empathy.
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: This is the person who created the first Swedish newspaper,
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: or allowed it to exist, and mass media was a
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: very controversial idea at the time. Also the first monarch
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: in Sweden to say, hey, maybe we should let all
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: of the kids go to school?
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: What what?
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: I love the italics on that.
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, But the idea of educating you know, the plebs
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: for lack of a better term, historically has been a
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: little risky because you want to keep your underlings, the
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: people that you rule over, ignorant. So this is an
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: absolutely bombastically progressive idea for the time to jump in.
• 20:23
  Speaker 5: I mean, if you want to think of another similar,
• 20:26
  Speaker 5: same time period, bad government design theology. The theology works
• 20:32
  Speaker 5: often when the masses are not educated. Yeah, so the
• 20:36
  Speaker 5: person who is, like, you know, the divine leader is
• 20:41
  Speaker 5: the only one who can read the Bible.
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: End allbe all religion as a stand in for education.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: In many ways, the argument of intercession shout out to
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: Martin Luther right that one time he got super pissed
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: and changed history and created the Protestant species of Christianity.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: So our pal Christina, after about ten years of being
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: the monarch, she says, you know what I've given you schools,
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: I've helped newspapers, I've helped create mass media in this country.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: And I quit. I have learned enough about monarchy to
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: think the game is rigged. I'm just going to get
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: out of here. I'm going to The fancy word for
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: this is abdicate.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, abdicate being a fancy word for stepping aside right,
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: and it usually it implies agency of the one abdicating,
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: though there certainly can be behind the scenes factors that
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: might force someone to do that.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: Politically interesting that you say so, because one of the
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: reasons cited for this abdicationation was the idea of illness.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: Yes, indeed, once again from our dear friends at Britannica.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: We're actually very close with the managing staff. It's not true.
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: We'd like to be.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: We reach out to us Britannica peeps. We want to
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: go have drinks, Yes, goes Dustly. Christina's abdication after ten
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: years of rule shocked and confused the Christian world. She
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: pleaded that she was ill and that the burden of
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: ruling was too heavy for a woman. The reasons, however,
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: are unclear and still disputed. Now, I would say if
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: that were the case, you know, this is certainly you
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: know heavy hangs the head that.
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: Wears the crown and all of that stuff.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: This is a person who clearly comes from a place
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: of relative for the time, goodness and kindness and you know, learnedness.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: And it can be really stressful when you're in that
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: situation and you start to realize that this is not
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: the way of the world, the system that I am
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: a part of doesn't think like me. And while you are,
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: you know, the kind of last word, there are always
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: gonna be those little fingers and those grimo worm tongues,
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: you know, sort of whispering in your ear and trying
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: to head you off at the pass every chance you get.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: I imagine that could be incredibly exhausting. And for someone
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: like Christina, who is a philosophically minded, learn an individual,
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: I could think that could really cause some mental strife
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: that might require a step back. And this exactly is
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: the kind of person that I think would do that.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: But I too am suspicious. Ben here, I too am suspicious.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: Here's one you might enjoy your mileage, may veris that's
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: that's for the Game of Thrones folks. Next, Can I
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: get a like a dumb joke sort of paradidtal on
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: a drum.
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: A rim shut.
• 23:53
  Speaker 5: Yeah, the bad joke drum that I have saved and
• 23:56
  Speaker 5: marked easy to find for all the times we make
• 23:58
  Speaker 5: bad jokes on the show. You want that one? Yeah,
• 24:02
  Speaker 5: it is bad joke dot wave.
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: No it's not.
• 24:04
  Speaker 5: It is bad joke drum dot wave.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: But yes, all right, so this also, I love what
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: you're bringing up here.
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: This is.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: Loosely, we could loosely describe this as the experience of
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: Poland as a country in many, many eras through history.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: Christina was dealing with a situation called contemporarily the Polish question,
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: and it was not a metaphor. It was a geopolitical concern.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: The thoughts of abdicating the throne began back when her
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: buddy Renee that we mentioned earlier, he got pneumonia. Yeah,
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: he coughed and therefore he was dead.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I studied him in college. I really do like
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: the work of de gard It's very interesting stuff.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: I think so as well. And he died after having
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: heavily influenced this monarch. And he's one of the guys
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: who pitched the idea of building an institution of higher learning,
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: and she was very much on board with this. Christina
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: would sit through, you know, various as he said, various
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: as he said, little fingers and whisperers, and then she
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: would sort of fast forward past their concerns and say, hey,
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: we should start a university. That guy who died of pneumonia,
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: he was onto something cool. She also she also had
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: to continually deal with council what do they call it
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: in Song of Ice and Fire.
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: This small council.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she had to deal with those folks who were
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: old dudes, and they were continually trying to speak down
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: to her.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: It sounds like, oh and sorry to keep referencing Song
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: of Ice and Fire stuff. And while some people maybe
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: aren't as hot about the House of Dragons show as
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: they are about the early parts of Game of Thrones,
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: I do think that the dragon Queen character in House
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: of Dragons is a pretty good parallel for this this
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: character historically speaking, because she is kind and benevolent and
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: educated and diplomatic, and she's also surrounded with a bunch
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: of BROI douchey dudes who are trying to you know,
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: quagmire her every chance they get.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: Ooh, quagmire as a verb. Nice. Also, this council of dudes,
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: this bro council, would not let her quit. She said,
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: I want to abdicate the throne, and they said, oh
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: ha ha ha ha, no worries. And she suffered a
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: severe breakdown. According to history, I suspect a conspiracy because
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: she was confined to her bedchambers. I think she did
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: not want to play the role of public figure and
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: mascot and I think she was punished for having a conscience.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: She also, being the queen, was allowed to ask for
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: their version of therapist right, which would be religious intercessors attendance.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: There was one guy, father Antonio Messido, who would come
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: and visit her frequently. This brewly small council was worried
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: get this. They were worried that she would turn Catholic.
• 28:04
  Speaker 5: And to jump in real quick. One note that I
• 28:07
  Speaker 5: did find that was very interesting is how her father
• 28:10
  Speaker 5: died was fighting Catholics. These people hated Catholics.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they hated Catholics.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but despite the you know, whispers and screams, they
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: got progressively more desperate of Christina's counsel.
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: She did decide to put.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: Her time as Queen of Sweden to an end, and
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: she then decided to in sixteen fifty three leave Sweden.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: She knew that the kind of administrative I guess process
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: of filing the paperwork or whatever for her abdication was
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: going to take some time weeks, months possibly, and she
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: was ready to get this done. So she reached out
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: to her cousin who was next in line, Charles the
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: tenth Gustavus to Base offer him the job or just
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: make sure he was down with it.
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: He was game and she was out.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you need an exit plan, right because otherwise this
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: person disappearing from Sweden would trigger an enormously tragic civil
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: war because other people would race to practice usurpation.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: Right again, Song of Ice and Fires, Well, the whole
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: series is about people scrapping for that, you know, I
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: mean it really when there's no clear line of ascension
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: I guess is the term, then you got people coming
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: out of the woodwork, and it can really.
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: Cause serious, serious loss of life.
• 29:43
  Speaker 5: Right. Or in another case in the Elder Scrolls, when
• 29:47
  Speaker 5: Martin Septim crushes the Amulet of the Kings and becomes Acotash,
• 29:51
  Speaker 5: there's no heir to the throne, so the empire paro
• 29:55
  Speaker 5: kind of civil war enticed media. A war lord just
• 29:57
  Speaker 5: became emperor.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: I think that's what most people think think of Max
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: when they're trying to you know.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: Immediately, immediately, that's the best part of the show so far.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: So we also know that, look, let's picture this our
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: pal Christina. Right as we're saying, just to recap, she
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: contacts her cousin to make sure someone will be a
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: figurehead for the monarchy at the time. And then she
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: goes she goes on an adventure that I genuinely believe
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: is under reported in history and could be an awesome
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: story for our nascent, emergent ridiculous history cinema. She goes
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: around disguised as a night in the sixteen hundreds, and
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: then she arrives in Rome and hangs out with Pope
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: Alexander the seventh and he sees this not disgraced but
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: definitely a wall monarch, and and he goes, Oh, let
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: me welcome you in. I I hear you like Catholics.
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: I was.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: I was about to say, like, she's sort of known
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: as being Catholic curious right at this point.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: Wow, Catholic curious. I mean, it's the thing.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: You know, people were concerned about it, and their fears
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: certainly weren't allayed by her like fleeing directly to Rome
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: into the arms of the pope and being like feted
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: with luxurious dinners and red carpets, you know, galas or whatever.
• 31:44
  Speaker 5: Let's to say she wasn't curious, Well, sure, but you
• 31:49
  Speaker 5: know that's how it starts.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: Have you tried it? Orgelon, I I imagine you've read
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: the books, and you maybe under the impression that we
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: live in a state of piety and poverty. But also
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: the boy, have you tried an ordol on?
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, for anyone that doesn't remember the order lane is the.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: Tiny hollow boned bird that was a delicacy so decadent
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: in those days that when you consumed it, it's supposed
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: to be all in one bite. I believe it's fried
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: in butter and whatever. You're supposed to put a like
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: a like a silk napkin over your head to hide
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: your your depravity from God.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: Right, an omniscient, omnipotent creator.
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: That you can pickaboo with. This is a sucker for loopholes.
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: I'm not here.
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: I'm here.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: God has no object permanence in this scenario.
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: So as as we're saying this is a sensation in Rome, right,
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: this is this is like if your favorite American president
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: suddenly moved to.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: Russia, but you know, probably not the best of pr
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: stories back home in Sweden, right, because I mean she's
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: no longer the ruler, but she still represents the country
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: at least symbolically, right.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: Right, And she can't not do politics because she's very
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: gifted in this regard This is again a quintessential textbook diplomat.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: She starts negotiations with the Chief Minister of France, Cardinal Mazarin,
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: and then she also talks to the Duke Diamodena to
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: take control of Naples. At this time, Naples was controlled
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: by Spain, and her pitch was for a person who
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: abandoned monarchy.
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: This is weird.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: Her pitch was, I'll just beat Queen and Naples, you
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: know what I mean. Not my first roudeo.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: But it's like, let me clean up shop, get things
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: in a good place, and then I'll abdicate again, this
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: time to a French prince.
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the idea, and the scheme did not work out.
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: Good call call it what it is.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Although wouldn't you say this is kind of a
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: like is she is she manipulating or is she really
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: looking out for like the best scenario for Europe?
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: Unclear?
• 34:39
  Speaker 5: I would say she was known to live a very
• 34:42
  Speaker 5: lavish life, and a lot of reports said she for
• 34:47
  Speaker 5: many periods of time while she was living in Rome,
• 34:49
  Speaker 5: she was living basically, she was falling in debt.
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: High on the hog.
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: She needed a grift, okay.
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: Okay, money all right, So you know less.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: It's so eas to look back through history when you
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: see kind of a good apple to sort of like
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: give them just all the praise because it's such a rarity.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: But history is also rife with these things we call
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: humans that are very imperfect and can he can be
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: a victim of their own foibles. So while she may
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: have had some good qualities, and may have done some
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: good things and exhibited some humility, this doesn't seem like
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: the best continuation of those themes.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: She also put out a hit on several people. The
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: most famous one was she went to the government and said,
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: I need you to kill this guy. He's a snitch.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: He is lying to the Pope about me. And they
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: asked why should we kill him, and she said, I'm
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: not taking questions, just get it done. Yeah, And everybody
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: in France was amazed that she would say this. The
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: Pope no longer trusted her. The Pope was like, this
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: lady's gonna kill anyone, you know, that's kind of wild.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: That's a verbatim quote from the Pope.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: It does seem like she was going off the rails
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: a little bit. So she did. However, despite all of
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: this scandal, lived to become one of the most important
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: historical figures in terms of her influence on politics of
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: this era. She continued to be friends with further future popes.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: She did continue to spread her love of the finer things,
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: the arts, philosophy, poetry, literature, you know, all across Europe.
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: Also, she became this sort of thought leader, right, which
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: seems to be her ultimate aspiration, her taste in the arts,
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: her patronage of these things. She collected paintings that became
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: beyond price, right, pieces of human civilization. Also created spaces
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: for what we would call salons or hangouts, right. She
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: invented cool coffee shops without coffee, where people would hang
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: out and talk about their big ideas like de Carte,
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: you know, like this is one best example of this
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: would be the Arcadia Academy, which she founded and it
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: is still in Rome today. I hear you can walk in.
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: I'd be cool.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: I really would love to visit Rome and something on
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: my She was also a mean you really kind of
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: consider her almost a taste maker in a way. She really,
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: you know, those paintings that we're talking about were so
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: valuable because her influence caused them to appreciate in value
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: because she sort of set the tone of what was
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: popular in a lot of ways.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: Hm, hm, And she also set, I would argue, a
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: pretty cool precedent or participated in a precedent that is
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: important today abdicating power. There there is a controversial history
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: of monarchs stepping down. Just to be clear, folks, most
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: monarchs in that imperfect system tend to die in office
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: or you know, whether it's you know, whether they shut
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: themselves to death or whether they whether they meet the
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: wrong end of the game.
• 38:44
  Speaker 5: Series, we have a series of people dying bad ways.
• 38:47
  Speaker 5: We have one episode of seriously only dedicated to be
• 38:50
  Speaker 5: able to himself to death.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: He did, he did, That's how he died.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: And I do think it's an interesting parallel to what's
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: going on in you know, kind of modern political life.
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: Is like, whatever your political persuasions are, and whatever you
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: think of this action, the fact that Joe Biden stepped
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: down and stepped aside is interesting historically, you know, whether
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: you think it was a magnanimous act, you know, or
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: whether you think he was like you know, behind the scenes,
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: elbowed out. It's not something that happens all the time.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: Also to that point, if we're speaking of current parallels,
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: I want to shout out the King of Bhuton, who
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: went from an absolute monarchy to a democracy and did
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: it on purpose. That is the most baller fucking move.
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: It's true.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's definitely not the way things usually go.
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: Usually goes the other way around.
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: I think maybe we do a ridiculous history of Bhuton
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: at some point. That place is amazing.
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: It's very much in your wheelhouse, Ben, and I will
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: follow you wherever you may lead and happily learn a
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: lot alongside the ridiculous historians out there amongst us.
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: Well, let me follow you here. How do we wrap
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: up this amazing story of the Minerva of the North.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: A couple other interesting things that she did. She helped
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: establish the first public opera house in Rome. She was
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: also a patron of some very big names in classical
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: music that you might be familiar with. Alessandro Scarlatti, who
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: actually became her choir master, and Arcangelo Corelli, who was
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: another composer. If you grew up playing an orchestraser know
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: much about classical we probably know most of these names.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: He actually directed her orchestras sculptor by the name of
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: Giovanni Bernini who I have heard of that I'm not
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: mega mega familiar with. She was a massive fan of
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: books and had a huge library of books and manuscripts
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: that is actually now held in the Vatican Library.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: She also said, don't pick on people for their ethnicity,
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: or for their religion, their creed, whatever. She supported the
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: idea of intellectual revolution, that's what I would call it.
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: She wanted people to be empowered with opportunities to discover information.
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: And she yes had her ups and downs. She definitely
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: grifted a couple of times. If we're just being honest.
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: You boiled it down perfectly, Ben.
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, it really all comes down to what was
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: her motto Ben at the beginning of the episode that
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: we mentioned, wisdom supports the nation. I think that really
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: held true for the most part throughout her career in politics.
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: And as a very important patron of the arts.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and she didn't take mess. She took no guff.
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: That is apparent. When she passed away in sixty eighty nine,
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: she was entuned in Saint Peter's Basilica.
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: Now I did one.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know how much you guys study tombs,
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: but that's like the nice neighborhood as far as burials go.
• 42:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but yeah, but that's Minerva of the North, the
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: Swedish Queen who was so enlightened she quit being the
• 42:24
  Speaker 4: queen on.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: Purpose, on purpose. Thank you as always to our super
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: producer mister Max Williams, Thanks also to his brother Alex Williams,
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: who composed this soundtrack.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: Was air Horns for Alex's team Hughes thanks to Chris
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: Frosciota's and he was Jeff Coats here in Spirra Jonathan Strickland, the.
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: Quiz thro AJ Jacobs, the Puzzler A J. Bahamas Jacobs.
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken, yes, and we will never explain it,
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: but do tune in with her. Pal Aj. What a delightful,
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: brilliant guy, you.
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: Know, a rightly fellow, real mischievous little scamp.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's got to shine to him. He's the type
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: of dude that if he were if he were put
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: in a monarchical situation, he would spend his time educating
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: the kingdom and then he would leave.
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's very unbranded.
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: Lest we not also heap compliments on our buddy Jonathan Strickland,
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: the quist.
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: That guy is pure evil.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent. He wrote to me earlier and
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: said I think democracy is overrated. And I said, what
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: do you mean? And he was like, I think I
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: would be better as a king than a podcaster.
• 43:44
  Speaker 5: I don't know. He's pretty weird. I feel like he
• 43:46
  Speaker 5: want to be in a monarchy, that he would want
• 43:49
  Speaker 5: to be one of the peasants, which is what he is.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: Oh my god.
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: Classic, and he's got to shine too. It comes from
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: his bald head.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: There it is. Thanks for tuning in, everyone.
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: See you next time, folks.
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.