Latest / EHA Unplugged / The Role of Artificial Intelligence in Hematology (featuring Dr Gregor Hormann)

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The Role of Artificial Intelligence in Hematology (featuring Dr Gregor Hormann) · EHA Unplugged

• 0:07
  Greetings and welcome to EHA Unplugged, the official podcast
• 0:11
  channel of the European Hematology Association EHA.
• 0:15
  Hi everyone, My name is Wilson Lim, a medical writer for EHA.
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  I'm sitting here today with Professor Gregor Horman to talk
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  about AI, artificial intelligence in hematology.
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  Professor Orman, would you introduce yourself please?
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  Yeah. Hi.
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  My name is Gregor Herman. I'm a clinical pathologist or
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  specialist in laboratory medicine working at the MLL of
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  the Munich Leukemia Laboratory in Germany.
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  The MNL is one of the largest laboratories focusing on
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  patients with leukemia and lymphoma and diagnosis of bone
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  marrow and blood samples. So when we talk about artificial
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  intelligence, AI, the first thing that comes to mind is all
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  the large language models such as Chachi, PT and and Gemini.
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  Many, many people are unaware of the other models that can be
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  applied that are applied in healthcare.
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  Can you share with us some examples of that?
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  It's a huge spectrum of AI to be applied in healthcare, for
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  example, where we are mainly focusing on is of course using
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  AI for our diagnostic processes. And there we are mainly applying
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  a particular kind of AI machine learning or more specifically
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  deep learning, where we try to get the information out of our
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  data and use them in a scientific way.
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  With those AI machine approaches, for example, we are
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  doing soda morphology or we are doing chromosome on Banach
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  analysis. Both of those techniques focus
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  on imaging. So our technicians, our soda
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  geneticists, our haematologists have to assess those images and
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  tell what kind of cells are these, what type of chromosomes
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  are these? And we can use here deep neural
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  networks, a kind of machine learning approach to align those
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  pictures to the classes of cells or the classes of chromosomes.
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  So we extract the features out of the picture and then have the
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  network aligning the cell to a particular class.
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  For example, telling this is a blast and this is very helpful
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  as the cells are pre annotated. Of course you need all the data
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  digital. First of all, we have to
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  photograph all the cells from the peripheral blood smear or
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  from the bone marrow smear or have the metaphases digital
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  available and then we can apply those AI models to help us in
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  the classification of the particular cells.
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  This is nothing that the EI is doing alone.
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  This is definitely a Co working between the EI and our trained
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  personal. So each and every cell is then
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  reviewed by a trained medical personnel and then we have a
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  final report to be assigned. Still, this addition of AI was
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  very helpful in our processes, in particular inside genetics.
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  This has really streamlined our reporting.
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  We are much faster now. We can deliver the report faster
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  to the patient and therefore help the patient care directly.
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  So does AI help? Yes.
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  So we can use health data to predict and help us with certain
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  tasks. So what I've just elaborated on
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  was a rather easy task. Just tell me what is this cell?
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  What is this chromosome? So we have a picture as an input
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  and the classification as an output, rather straightforward.
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  Of course, we can also ask more complex questions.
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  For example, is this picture associated with a certain
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  genotype or is this picture associated with a certain
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  outcome of the patient? So then we are talking about
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  disease classification, prognostication.
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  EI can also be used for this. Again, we typically are then
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  using machine learning approaches.
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  We can use this with supervised or unsupervised machine learning
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  and a particular unsupervised machine learning also helps us
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  to identify new classes of disease where we would not have
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  thought about. We have so much data now
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  available in the area of genomics, where we struggle as
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  humans to interpret all those data, to find patterns in this
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  large field of data. And here AI is helpful to point
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  to certain classes that are biologically similar depending
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  on the genotype, on the other features.
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  And then we as the humans of the medical doctors have to figure
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  out if those classes are then meaningful in terms of
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  treatment, in terms of prognostication, and how to deal
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  with this. From all accounts, this also
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  leads to a huge improvement in efficiency.
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  How long would you say it takes to process for example image and
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  karyotyping? Would you say 10 seconds more or
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  less? Even faster.
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  Now we are in the range of one second.
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  So it's really just get it started and it's done.
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  So that's not a bottleneck. The system is really fast.
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  And to get this into context, a well trained technician who is
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  doing this karyotyping leads about one minute for one
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  metaphase and you have to do multiple of those to assess 1
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  case. So you typically need half an
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  hour to assess a case. And now this is pre prepared.
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  It still takes some time, but for reviewing and this is much
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  faster than doing everything from the scratch.
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  Do you think we can still improve this?
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  There's always room for improvement, so in the past we
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  have been focusing on normal chromosomes.
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  The mast majority of those are normal, and we also can assign a
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  numeric operation, meaning just one chromosome in addition of
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  one chromosome missing. This nicely works, however, when
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  we're talking about structural operations, for example, a
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  translocation that leads to a fusion of the chromosomes.
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  BCR Able would be such an example with the philadelphic
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  chromosome. This needs to be specifically
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  trained to also recognise those structurally abnormal
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  chromosomes, and that's what we're currently doing.
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  We're training the system with the most frequent and most
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  relevant structural operations to also have them automatically
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  key assigned. You mentioned morphology.
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  Are there any morphology AI models as advanced as the Kyo
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  Typing 1? Well, the current typing was the
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  first one out there and it is really something that we have in
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  place in our routine diagnostic application for a couple of
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  years now. Therefore, we have a lot of
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  experience with this and also other labs are already using
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  this approach and we know it's really helpful also in in their
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  hands in the field of sodomorphology.
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  We are a little bit beyond this. We need to imply this in our own
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  lab right now. This is perfectly fine.
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  And we are currently in this transition phase to see how
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  robust the workflow is to be also applicable for example, in
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  other labs. So if any of our listeners wants
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  want to get to know more about the Kyo typing process, it's AI.
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  For example the benefits or what it take to set it up?
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  How and where can they find more about it?
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  You can contact us, we can get in touch.
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  There is always room for collaboration.
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  We have a designated AI team in our laboratory and currently
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  there are five people working full time on AI applications in
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  this diagnostic field in medicine.
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  We are enlarging in this team right now to up to 10 people
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  that will work at AI and for example, with the care typing
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  model. This has been a cooperation with
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  Meta systems, is also available via them directly.
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  So shifting gear a bit here, can you tell us a bit about how we
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  can use AI to determine patient prognosis?
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  Yes. So when we're talking about
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  prognosis and hematology, we now rely on rather well simple
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  models because we need to handle those.
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  For example, if you think about acute minded leukemia, then we
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  have the ELN certification in three different risk groups of
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  this of utmost importance for treatment of patients with AML.
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  The patients are assigned to this risk groups based typically
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  on one marker 1 genetic operation found in cytogenetics
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  or molecular genetics and this makes the risk group for this
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  patient. This is straightforward
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  physician can deal with this type of information perfectly
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  fine. However, we are losing kind of
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  complexity because in many instances we have combinations
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  of multiple mutations and together with other operations
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  and to assess this type of complexity here AI can help.
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  There are a number of studies out there that just asked are
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  there biological subclasses within AML that can be assigned
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  to a different biology or to different outcome?
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  And this more evidence based specification taking into
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  account the complexity of the disease will be an interesting
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  way to move the field forward. So the principle behind this is
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  it applicable more widely, for example to MDSMPNS etcetera.
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  Yes, it's the principle is applicable for all those types
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  of diseases. For MD's, we now have the IPSSM
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  that has come out in parallel. There have been multiple
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  publications on other approaches, including also EI
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  for certification of those patients and machine learning is
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  an issue there. Moving forward, to what extent
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  do you think you'll be able to implement this in your
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  laboratory, for example? Yeah, they can be implemented
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  and they have already been implemented to some extent.
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  The important thing is you have to carefully validate your
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  model. You need to know the
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  performance, how well is it working, what are problems, what
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  are cases where it doesn't work. And this is really careful
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  validation process that is of utmost importance before you can
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  apply this into a clinical practice.
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  When we are talking about what we are currently doing, this are
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  rather narrow questions that we are asking, for example, how to
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  assign the class of the cell. And this is what we will call a
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  union model AI, just one input and one output format.
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  In the future, there are now proposals and models out there
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  that can deal with multiple formats multimodal AI.
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  This will be a very interesting topic to see how the field is
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  moving with this. We are not there as a current
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  state to implement this in routine practice, but this will
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  be of utmost importance to move forward.
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  So what is synthetic data? It's pretty hot topic at the
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  moment. Would you be able to explain
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  more about it? Yeah, that's a interesting and
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  rather new field within generation of data with AI.
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  So large language models are kind of generative AI, and this
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  is also something a little bit in this direction.
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  So we're not just analysing data, but we're producing data
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  with this. What does this mean?
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  You have a large data set. Big data is still an issue
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  there. You have a large data set of
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  real patients for example, and you then train a model to
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  produce patients data sets that are like the real ones but not
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  perfect copy of the real ones. So we've slide modifications and
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  those new data sets are then called synthetic data sets.
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  What are pros of this of this approach?
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  You have better patient privacy as the real patient data are
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  then not needed for sharing any more.
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  You can share those slightly modified data, but we can also
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  augment the data set, increase the number at least to some
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  extent and to make some studies more powerful with this.
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  That's an emerging field. We will have to see for what
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  applications is really useful in clinical practice and where the
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  limitation of this technique are.
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  So for all our listeners who was also interested in synthetic
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  data, we will have a specific podcast on that with Professor
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  Matteo de la Porta. If you're interested, please
• 13:27
  keep an eye out for today episode by subscribing to the
• 13:31
  EHA Unplugged Podcast channel. So taking all the things that
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  you've spoken about, along with the language models, being able
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  to suggest reports and other communications, this is moving
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  towards an AI doctor. What is your take on this?
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  Well, we should not overestimate what AI is currently able to do.
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  So those models are helpful in many instances.
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  They can well help us get rid of the boring stuff to do and then
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  focus on the complex things. Right now, AI will not be able
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  to solve all the very complicated cases and really get
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  up with much new information on a single case.
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  This is really something where the human is still in the front.
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  However, it is a matter of working with the eye, not
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  against the eye, so it should really help us in our process
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  and not replace what we are doing In this combination of
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  human intelligence together with the eye is definitely the way to
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  go forward. So what you're saying is that we
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  shouldn't be afraid of AI, but rather we should embrace this
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  change and move forward with it? Absolutely agree.
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  So don't be afraid, try to learn about AI and here EHA can be
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  very helpful with those training activities, trying to learn
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  about their pros, the cons, the limitations, how you can use AI,
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  how you can use AI in a way that was really helpful for you in
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  your daily practice. And yeah, just you this
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  opportunity, it's a great area where we're leaving right now
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  and we should not only focus on negative sides, but really get
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  into the doing with this. There was a wonderful quote at
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  the end of your talk here at the EHA 2024 Congress.
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  Would you be able to share it again with our listeners here?
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  Yeah, the quote is from Eric Topple, one of the most famous
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  physicians dealing with AI. And he said AI will not replace
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  physicians, but physicians using AI will replace physicians not
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  using AI. It's a very interesting quote,
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  yes. Thank you very much, Professor
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  Holman for this wonderful talk and also thank you for everyone
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  listening. If you're interested in more
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  podcasts, do stay tuned and check out our EHA Unplugged
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  channel. Until then, have a nice one.