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SMNTY Classics: How to be a Feminist Business with Renee Powers · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Sanny and Samantha and welcome to Stuff
0:07
Speaker 1: I Never Told You Production of by Heart Radio. And
0:18
Speaker 1: welcome to another classic episode, and this one we've been
0:22
Speaker 1: talking a lot about ethical consumerism, where to buy things from,
0:30
Speaker 1: and it has brought back a conversation to me, at least,
0:33
Speaker 1: that we had with Renee Powers about how to run
0:38
Speaker 1: a feminist business and how complicated that is and all
0:43
Speaker 1: of the questions you have to ask yourself and I
0:48
Speaker 1: still think about it. Honestly, I still think about it.
0:54
Speaker 1: So please enjoy this classic episode. Hey, this is Annie
1:03
Speaker 1: and Samantha and welcome to Stefan Never Told You Protection
1:05
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. And today we are so so so happy
1:18
Speaker 1: to be joined by Renee Powers of Feminist book Club,
1:23
Speaker 1: the podcast, the business, the subscription box, all of it.
1:28
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us. I am so
1:31
Speaker 1: excited to be here. Thanks for having me. We're so
1:34
Speaker 1: excited to have you. We've already like we do this
1:36
Speaker 1: all the time. We just adopt people as friends, so
1:38
Speaker 1: you're like our friend perfect. We're gonna have really fun
1:43
Speaker 1: hangout times where we complain about business stuff. Yes, I
1:46
Speaker 1: love this for all of us.
1:49
Speaker 2: I love that your podcast just fits perfectly with ours,
1:53
Speaker 2: And I'm like, why haven't we've been hanging out before.
1:56
Speaker 2: That's uh, that's more that's stranger to me than the
1:59
Speaker 2: this part.
2:02
Speaker 1: It's true, it's true, And this is this is a
2:05
Speaker 1: really fun thing because you're coming on our podcast and
2:08
Speaker 1: we're going to be on your podcast, which I'm gonna
2:10
Speaker 1: admit i'm a little nervous about because you feel a
2:12
Speaker 1: little bit more polished.
2:14
Speaker 3: Oh oh, it's all a facod. It's all fake, fake
2:20
Speaker 3: it till you make it, is my mantra.
2:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I love that as our like twelve year
2:24
Speaker 2: veteran here are saying she's nervous, and yes, I still
2:28
Speaker 2: get nervous.
2:30
Speaker 1: It's like I want a plane with turbulence, right.
2:35
Speaker 3: I have to tell you though, And I was telling
2:37
Speaker 3: Samantha this earlier that I started podcasting because of stuff
2:42
Speaker 3: Mom never told you, Like I started listening back in
2:46
Speaker 3: like twenty ten, is that right? Like yeah, like even
2:50
Speaker 3: before Caroline came on, it was it was Christian and Molly. Yeah, yeah,
2:55
Speaker 3: and that's what inspired me to podcast. I remember, like Dorive,
2:58
Speaker 3: I had a thirty five minute commute to my grad
3:00
Speaker 3: school program, and I would it was a straight shot
3:04
Speaker 3: and I would just cueue up all the back episodes.
3:09
Speaker 3: A fan ever said, so this feels really like I
3:11
Speaker 3: don't know, this is really fulfilling to me. So thanks
3:14
Speaker 3: for thanks for chatting with me.
3:17
Speaker 1: I love that so much. Oh my gosh, I'm almost
3:21
Speaker 1: like I'm thinking back to my time because I was
3:25
Speaker 1: an editor at that point. I was the editor of
3:27
Speaker 1: the show. So that's so cool. It's like those connections
3:29
Speaker 1: you can make over technology and you don't realize. Yes,
3:32
Speaker 1: like he's made them.
3:33
Speaker 3: The parasocial relationships have become real social relationship.
3:37
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Yes, yes, it's so odd too working
3:42
Speaker 1: in this business when you, like, as an editor, I
3:48
Speaker 1: would know such personal facts about people who have never
3:53
Speaker 1: spoken to me before but I work with them. It
3:55
Speaker 1: was just such a strange thing where it's like you
3:57
Speaker 1: probably don't even know my name, but I know, and
4:00
Speaker 1: you like lost your virgin very bizarre. Well, okay, can
4:08
Speaker 1: you introduce yourself to our listeners.
4:12
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, as you said, my name Serine Powers, I
4:15
Speaker 3: she her pronouns. I am based in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and
4:19
Speaker 3: Minneapolis proper, not one of the urbs.
4:22
Speaker 1: Okay, that's a big thing.
4:25
Speaker 4: That's a thing for everyone like exactly, yeah, but I
4:33
Speaker 4: am the founder of Feminist Book Club.
4:35
Speaker 3: We are a monthly book subscription service and media company.
4:39
Speaker 3: We use literature as a launchpad to have difficult conversations
4:43
Speaker 3: about social justice and we've been doing this for just
4:46
Speaker 3: over five years now. This grew out of a failed dissertation.
4:50
Speaker 3: Oh wow, So I'm actually I'm a I call myself
4:54
Speaker 3: a pH dropout. I spent eight years in grad school,
4:57
Speaker 3: six years in a PhD program, and and I was
5:01
Speaker 3: studying gender and communication and technology and got to the
5:06
Speaker 3: point where I did all my coursework, I passed my exams,
5:12
Speaker 3: and then I went to propose my dissertation and I
5:14
Speaker 3: failed it three times, and I was like, I'm out. Yeah,
5:19
Speaker 3: it was just like horrible on my mental health. So
5:22
Speaker 3: I was in Chicago. My partner is from Minneapolis. We
5:26
Speaker 3: moved up here together, and I was like, well, I
5:28
Speaker 3: had this interview project as part of my dissertation. I'm
5:32
Speaker 3: just going to do it as a podcast. And like
5:35
Speaker 3: I said, stuff, Mom, never told you got me into podcasting.
5:37
Speaker 3: Like listening to podcasts and feminist podcasting I think is
5:41
Speaker 3: such an interesting medium. And so thanks to y'all and
5:46
Speaker 3: what you do Feminist book Clubs started as a podcast,
5:51
Speaker 3: and my listeners would say, like, you're always giving you know,
5:54
Speaker 3: book recommendations, like what if you had an actual book club,
5:57
Speaker 3: And it just grew organic from there. We started just
6:01
Speaker 3: a bunch of friends in a Facebook group reading the
6:04
Speaker 3: same books, and now we have you know, a thousand
6:07
Speaker 3: members around the world and our own platform and app,
6:11
Speaker 3: and we talk to authors, and we have a you know,
6:15
Speaker 3: bi weekly podcast. Bi weekly has twice a week, not
6:18
Speaker 3: every other week, it's twice a week podcast and daily blog.
6:23
Speaker 3: We're big on TikTok, We're big on Instagram. It's just
6:27
Speaker 3: rad as hell. So that's what we are and what
6:32
Speaker 3: I do. I just kind of guide the ship.
6:37
Speaker 1: Yes, and it is quite the ship. You've got quite
6:39
Speaker 1: a large team. I was a little jealous when I
6:40
Speaker 1: was looking at it right. This is amazing. You get
6:43
Speaker 1: to work with these as many people.
6:45
Speaker 3: They're so cool to Every single one of our contributors
6:48
Speaker 3: and staff is just like the coolest people I've ever met.
6:53
Speaker 3: And I am big on surrounding myself with people that
6:56
Speaker 3: are just much smarter than me. So we do have
6:59
Speaker 3: We've got kind of our executive team of four of
7:02
Speaker 3: us that our podcast producer. We've got our blog editor
7:05
Speaker 3: in chief, and then our Captain of Commerce is their title,
7:09
Speaker 3: and their name is Raw and Ron and I work
7:13
Speaker 3: in Minneapolis together in an office space, and so we
7:16
Speaker 3: are the only two full time employees. But everyone else
7:19
Speaker 3: is a contributor and you know, doing two to four
7:24
Speaker 3: pieces of content every month and helping out on you know,
7:28
Speaker 3: the community and creating all sorts of really cool conversations
7:32
Speaker 3: to starting really interesting conversations of like things that they
7:35
Speaker 3: are interested in and therefore I am now interested in.
7:40
Speaker 3: So it's yeah, our content really runs the gamut of
7:43
Speaker 3: a little bit of everything. We've got, you know, someone
7:45
Speaker 3: who works for the federal government. We've got a former
7:49
Speaker 3: park ranger. We've got a science communication like professional like
7:55
Speaker 3: feminism applies to everything, and we are able to use
8:00
Speaker 3: our team of contributors to to highlight that. We've got
8:04
Speaker 3: like a film writer like it's just cool, it's just cool.
8:08
Speaker 3: Everybody is just yeah, a romance author like what. Yeah,
8:15
Speaker 3: it's a great team.
8:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's awesome. And I do want to come back
8:18
Speaker 1: to the thing you said about being a feminist podcast
8:23
Speaker 1: in this this space in a second, But just first,
8:27
Speaker 1: I have a couple of questions about how has podcasting
8:32
Speaker 1: treated you? How has it been? And then also I
8:36
Speaker 1: find we have a book club on here. It is
8:41
Speaker 1: once a month and it's amazing, but I find that
8:46
Speaker 1: it's difficult to like read a whole book for podcasts,
8:51
Speaker 1: which sounds terrible, but like when it's your job, like
8:53
Speaker 1: you're researching all the time, you're reading stuff all the time,
8:55
Speaker 1: it just becomes like, okay, and I hate this, but
8:58
Speaker 1: it's true. We'll be like this book is too long,
9:00
Speaker 1: we can't read this one. Have you found that that
9:04
Speaker 1: has sort of leaked into your personal enjoyment of reading?
9:09
Speaker 3: Mmmm?
9:11
Speaker 1: What a good question.
9:12
Speaker 3: I I'm hmm. So one of the reasons I started
9:17
Speaker 3: Feminist Book Club is because I was so tired of
9:19
Speaker 3: reading like research, like dead old white guys writing about
9:24
Speaker 3: postmodernism like over it. So anything that's not that has
9:28
Speaker 3: always been fun for me. But to your point, yes,
9:33
Speaker 3: there are some books that kind of feel like homework,
9:36
Speaker 3: whether that's for you know, one of our books of
9:38
Speaker 3: the month, or if that's the guest that we're going
9:42
Speaker 3: to have on the podcast. I read everybody's books that's
9:44
Speaker 3: on the podcast, So yes, I don't know what else
9:48
Speaker 3: to say about that without as sending people.
9:57
Speaker 1: Not trying to do gotcha interview gosh.
10:06
Speaker 3: But what I will say is I'm a very fast reader,
10:10
Speaker 3: and so I always have at least three books going
10:13
Speaker 3: at once, and if if one, if I'm reading something
10:18
Speaker 3: for quote unquote fun, so I don't have like the
10:22
Speaker 3: author coming on or I don't have to write discussion
10:25
Speaker 3: questions for our book club. I am not afraid of
10:30
Speaker 3: not finishing a book like time is too precious. I
10:33
Speaker 3: will I will put it. If it's like fifty pages
10:38
Speaker 3: in and I am not feeling it, it's just not
10:40
Speaker 3: the right time for me. It's not you know, the
10:42
Speaker 3: vibe that I'm looking for, I will shelve it. I'm
10:46
Speaker 3: unapologetic about not finishing books. I also listen to most
10:51
Speaker 3: books on audio rather than reading physical books, and Famous
10:54
Speaker 3: Book Club does have an audiobook subscription nice and I
10:58
Speaker 3: find that being able to instantly be listening to something,
11:02
Speaker 3: I get through so many more books because I can
11:05
Speaker 3: do it, you know, while I'm walking my dog, while
11:07
Speaker 3: I'm washing dishes, while I'm doing yardwork. You know. So
11:10
Speaker 3: I at ninety percent of the time I've got you know,
11:13
Speaker 3: earbuds in and I'm listening to a book on at
11:16
Speaker 3: least one point five speed.
11:19
Speaker 2: Oh.
11:19
Speaker 1: Interesting. I love it when people are write it and
11:22
Speaker 1: like I only listen to it this this, this speed, Like, all.
11:24
Speaker 3: Right, your audiobook is great at one point five speed.
11:34
Speaker 2: That's good to know myself as well. So if not
11:37
Speaker 2: too a chipmug a fuck.
11:40
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you both sound great. That's a great speed
11:43
Speaker 3: for y'all.
11:44
Speaker 1: Yes, Oh my gosh, I love that so much. It's
11:48
Speaker 1: true though it is. Oh, I'm sure we'll probably talk
11:51
Speaker 1: about this a bit when we are on your show,
11:53
Speaker 1: but it is one of those things that we kind
11:55
Speaker 1: of had to say to our boss, which felt strange.
12:00
Speaker 1: It felt like he was assuming this is gonna be
12:03
Speaker 1: a grand slam because you've got like an audience, and
12:05
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, but people listen to things because they
12:09
Speaker 1: can do something else while they're listening to the thing,
12:13
Speaker 1: and it's just different mediums. Like I'm not sure it's
12:16
Speaker 1: going to translate necessarily. But both Samantha and I foolishly
12:20
Speaker 1: didn't realize we were going to do an audiobook, which
12:22
Speaker 1: I'm so happy about, Like it's very cool. I want
12:24
Speaker 1: to be accessible all that stuff, but I just it
12:26
Speaker 1: is different when you can walk your dog or cook
12:29
Speaker 1: or do something while you're listening to a book.
12:33
Speaker 3: And I'm one of those people that I always have
12:35
Speaker 3: to be doing something with my hands, Like, so it's
12:37
Speaker 3: hard for me to sit down and read a book.
12:39
Speaker 3: I'm very like fidgety, and so what I often do.
12:43
Speaker 3: Then I got really into cross stitching. Yes, yes, so
12:50
Speaker 3: I have just dozens of cross stitching projects that I'm
12:54
Speaker 3: working on, and I will just sit on the couch,
12:56
Speaker 3: listen to my book and do my little do my
12:59
Speaker 3: little cross stitching because I'm seventy five years old and
13:01
Speaker 3: unashamed of it. And I'm also in like I'm calling
13:03
Speaker 3: it my cozy mystery era, Like all I want to
13:06
Speaker 3: read are like women solving murders but like cozy. Yes,
13:13
Speaker 3: so yes, I just make me a cup of tea
13:16
Speaker 3: and you know, reserve a bed at the Old Folks
13:18
Speaker 3: Home for me because I'm.
13:22
Speaker 2: Sounds doesn't sound bad to me?
13:27
Speaker 1: No, No, Samantha is looking for a lazier version of
13:31
Speaker 1: cozy game.
13:32
Speaker 3: Yeah, like I'm.
13:33
Speaker 2: Like trying to actually do things and having quests. No,
13:36
Speaker 2: that's like good, I'm good. I just I want to
13:38
Speaker 2: do something in less than that. What do I just
13:39
Speaker 2: click on things.
13:40
Speaker 3: Thank you. That's how. That's how I got you want
13:43
Speaker 3: to talk about games, How I got into animal crossing
13:45
Speaker 3: because it's just like, yeah, I just want to sit
13:47
Speaker 3: here and fish.
13:48
Speaker 2: Well, that's the thing is like I literally stopped building things,
13:51
Speaker 2: so it's like I don't want this to be a
13:53
Speaker 2: whole village. I want it to be my five people.
13:55
Speaker 2: And I just go selfish, like I don't understand what
13:58
Speaker 2: this is. Even a boy like I actually try to
14:01
Speaker 2: start knitting, and I did. Okay, I did a couple
14:03
Speaker 2: of rows, and I was like, and I'm done. So
14:09
Speaker 2: I'm really good at it.
14:13
Speaker 1: You know, it's all right to change an audio book.
14:15
Speaker 3: You do a few more and you can do a
14:17
Speaker 3: few more roads.
14:18
Speaker 2: I am an odd person when it comes to audiobooks.
14:20
Speaker 2: I do like I will play phone games while I'm
14:24
Speaker 2: listening to the audio, or I will sam I will
14:26
Speaker 2: work the double whammy of that. So yeah, but I
14:32
Speaker 2: like your version better except for the fact that I'm
14:34
Speaker 2: not talented enough to do this stitching. Yeah.
14:38
Speaker 3: Oh, it's just following. It's just following a map. It's
14:40
Speaker 3: so easy.
14:41
Speaker 2: This is what people tell me. And then I try it,
14:43
Speaker 2: and then it comes out of blob. I'm like, you
14:44
Speaker 2: lie to me.
14:49
Speaker 3: All the stitches and start over, which is also really satisfied.
14:52
Speaker 3: Is it okay?
14:53
Speaker 2: Because in my mind I'm just automatically breaking the string
14:56
Speaker 2: and throwing it across the room and screaming up my failures.
14:58
Speaker 1: Fair enough that sounds yeah, totally. I could chat all
15:16
Speaker 1: day about this kind of stuff. But you did propose
15:19
Speaker 1: a serious topic for this episode, which is something that
15:24
Speaker 1: we struggle with that we think about a lot. And
15:26
Speaker 1: that's when you are an intersectional feminists and that's something
15:32
Speaker 1: that's part of you, but you're still in this capitalist
15:36
Speaker 1: space that is not that and in fact and typical
15:42
Speaker 1: to that. So how to be a feminist in a
15:46
Speaker 1: space that is not when we do have to, you know,
15:50
Speaker 1: have livelihoods and make money and survive, but how to
15:54
Speaker 1: do that? So if you can just talk about like
15:57
Speaker 1: your initial because you said you've done a lot of
16:00
Speaker 1: interviews about this lately, you've been thinking about it lately,
16:03
Speaker 1: sort of the when you sent this idea to us.
16:06
Speaker 1: What was on your mind? What are you thinking about?
16:08
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's something that I think about constantly, is
16:13
Speaker 3: how to run a feminist business? Because, like you said,
16:16
Speaker 3: that feels contradictory, and it's something I changed my mind
16:21
Speaker 3: about all the time. And this is something you all
16:23
Speaker 3: discuss in your book too, and I love that you
16:25
Speaker 3: talk about this fear of failure is detrimental to the
16:29
Speaker 3: feminist movement. And I've been screaming that from the top
16:33
Speaker 3: of my lungs, right that you know, if I don't
16:36
Speaker 3: show up try and fail, Like if I don't show
16:41
Speaker 3: up and try, knowing that I could fail, Like what,
16:44
Speaker 3: that's not moving anybody forward? Right, So all I'm saying
16:47
Speaker 3: is like, this is my approach and I will likely fail,
16:50
Speaker 3: but that's okay because we will all learn something from it. Right, So,
16:55
Speaker 3: how do we participate in capitalism and critique capitalism at
16:58
Speaker 3: the same time as something I think about a lot.
17:00
Speaker 3: And the the short answer is capitalism is compulsory, Like
17:05
Speaker 3: there's nothing that we can do to remove ourselves from
17:10
Speaker 3: capitalism and still be just like a functioning human in
17:15
Speaker 3: the society. So that means that we have to participate
17:18
Speaker 3: in capitalism ethically, And so how do we do that?
17:22
Speaker 3: What does that look like? And so that's what I've
17:25
Speaker 3: been like, how to be an anti capitalist business is
17:27
Speaker 3: like really hard, but how to be an ethical business
17:31
Speaker 3: that prioritizes the needs of its customers, the needs of
17:34
Speaker 3: its employees, the needs of its staff before profit. I
17:38
Speaker 3: think that is what sets feminists businesses apart from your
17:46
Speaker 3: run of the mill, even small business. I was gonna say,
17:48
Speaker 3: like Walmart, but like even there are a lot of
17:51
Speaker 3: small businesses that are just in it for the bottom line. Yeah,
17:54
Speaker 3: every decision that is made in this business comes from
17:58
Speaker 3: a place of people over profit. Like, yes, we have
18:03
Speaker 3: to pay our bills, but if by chance we can't
18:07
Speaker 3: pay our bills, we will still pay our people. And
18:11
Speaker 3: that's a real thing. Right We're in a recession, and
18:14
Speaker 3: there are there are times like right now, I was
18:17
Speaker 3: just telling you all before we started recording, like our
18:19
Speaker 3: office space was broken into four times in the last month,
18:22
Speaker 3: and we lost, you know, over five thousand dollars worth
18:25
Speaker 3: of equipment, Like all of our festival stuff is gone.
18:29
Speaker 3: It's just it's so frustrating, and insurance won't cover it,
18:32
Speaker 3: which is really great. Yeah, oh I love it. So
18:39
Speaker 3: Like we started a I believe deeply in mutual eight too,
18:43
Speaker 3: and so we started to GoFundMe and we're starting to
18:45
Speaker 3: like recoup some of those costs and anything left over
18:48
Speaker 3: is going to start to help us get the ball
18:51
Speaker 3: rolling on reincorporating as a feminist co op, an employee
18:55
Speaker 3: owned co op. So that's I wanted to get this
18:58
Speaker 3: business off the ground, so it was stable, it was running,
19:01
Speaker 3: it had systems and processes right.
19:05
Speaker 2: And.
19:06
Speaker 3: Then I wanted to step away. And so that's what
19:09
Speaker 3: we're in the process of right now, is putting the
19:12
Speaker 3: business in the hands of the actual community. Like I said,
19:16
Speaker 3: my background is in feminist theory, and so I come
19:20
Speaker 3: at this not from a business standpoint. I don't have
19:22
Speaker 3: a background in business. I don't have a business degree,
19:25
Speaker 3: but I come from this from a theory background. And
19:26
Speaker 3: what does it look like when we put feminist theory
19:29
Speaker 3: into action? And there is a research method called feminist
19:34
Speaker 3: participatory action research, and I have tried my best to
19:38
Speaker 3: adapt that to running a business. And what that really
19:41
Speaker 3: means it's a feedback loop, right of you know, we're
19:45
Speaker 3: thinking about this decision. What do you think we want
19:48
Speaker 3: to go this direction? What do you think this goes
19:51
Speaker 3: all the way down to Like the books that we pick,
19:54
Speaker 3: I don't pick them, our members pick them. Like I
19:57
Speaker 3: choose a theme because I'm like, well, we haven't read
20:00
Speaker 3: Native American voices lately, so like, let's do Native American
20:03
Speaker 3: Voices month, something along those lines. We haven't read trance voices,
20:06
Speaker 3: we haven't read about Hollywood, so like our next our
20:10
Speaker 3: next theme is in the zeitgeist, right because they're on strike,
20:15
Speaker 3: but it's a night at the movie, so we're going
20:17
Speaker 3: to be having conversations about the strike and the labor movement,
20:19
Speaker 3: but you know, all under the guise of reading fun
20:22
Speaker 3: Hollywood stories. So I propose the theme, our members suggest
20:27
Speaker 3: titles based on that theme, and then everybody votes and
20:30
Speaker 3: that's what gets chosen as the book of the month.
20:33
Speaker 3: So yeah, learning with and from participants instead of like teaching,
20:40
Speaker 3: like just not assuming I'm the smartest person in the room,
20:42
Speaker 3: because I'm absolutely not. But you know, bringing our community
20:47
Speaker 3: into the decision making has been really rewarding. And then
20:51
Speaker 3: and then they feel invested in it too. So I
20:53
Speaker 3: think that's I just gave you, like all of my
20:56
Speaker 3: word salad about about running a feminist business. So yes,
21:01
Speaker 3: let's let's let's let's synthesize here, right, So restructuring into
21:05
Speaker 3: a co op, people over profit, prioritizing our customers' opinions
21:11
Speaker 3: and asking for their feedback, I think, and opening up
21:14
Speaker 3: this feedback loop. I think that are those are the
21:17
Speaker 3: hallmarks of how we run a feminist business and how
21:20
Speaker 3: we uh yeah, push back against and participate in capitalism
21:25
Speaker 3: in in an anti capitalist way. We're not in it
21:28
Speaker 3: to make a bajillion dollars. Nobody sells books to make
21:31
Speaker 3: a bajillion dollars unless your name is Jeff Bezos and
21:34
Speaker 3: he can give.
21:38
Speaker 2: Agree, agree, Also, can we actually make money because I
21:43
Speaker 2: want to make money with the book? How do we
21:44
Speaker 2: do this?
21:45
Speaker 3: Annie? Yeah, sorry, not to be the bearer of bad news,
21:51
Speaker 3: but son of them.
21:52
Speaker 1: Okay, sorry, friends as expected, but.
21:58
Speaker 3: Yes, they thank you.
22:00
Speaker 2: I love the wrap up that was. You can tell
22:02
Speaker 2: I've definitely done presentation. I see your PhD in here,
22:08
Speaker 2: like trying to do the defense.
22:10
Speaker 3: Not quite a PhD. I'm considered abd all the dissertation.
22:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, well I'm gonna I'm gonna say you have.
22:16
Speaker 3: It because you you were. Thank you you were. So
22:18
Speaker 3: you can still call me professor Powers.
22:20
Speaker 2: I will, I will every day. But yeah, I think
22:22
Speaker 2: that's such an interesting conversation because we've had to have
22:25
Speaker 2: a back and forth about like, yeah, we need money
22:27
Speaker 2: to live. Uh, So we can't say because like, we
22:30
Speaker 2: have a lot of ads and advertising, and we try
22:33
Speaker 2: to be very very very conscious of what we say
22:36
Speaker 2: yes and no to, and of course sometimes we just
22:37
Speaker 2: don't have any control at all. And then the like
22:40
Speaker 2: pushback we get because we are an absolute and we
22:43
Speaker 2: stand by the intersectional feminist, we make mistakes or we
22:46
Speaker 2: may not know every information because as much as we
22:48
Speaker 2: want to be those upstanding people, the fact of the
22:52
Speaker 2: matter is this is a job. We have to make money.
22:55
Speaker 2: I have to do things kind of the same way
22:57
Speaker 2: when I was in social work, of like, I'm doing
22:58
Speaker 2: some things that I really hate, but I'm trying to
23:01
Speaker 2: do it in the best and more conscious way possible,
23:04
Speaker 2: knowing that I'm finding a system that's rigged against everyone,
23:08
Speaker 2: every marginalized group in so many ways. Like have you
23:11
Speaker 2: had a lot of conversations on how to like navigate
23:15
Speaker 2: that for yourself, especially when it comes to like advertising
23:17
Speaker 2: and all of those.
23:18
Speaker 3: Yeah, we do sell advertising, and we are very picky
23:21
Speaker 3: about who we are willing to work with. And that's
23:24
Speaker 3: I mean, and that's one of the pluses of being
23:26
Speaker 3: independent is we don't have a parent company that we
23:31
Speaker 3: have to make money for, like we are making money
23:33
Speaker 3: for ourselves to keep this ship afloat. So we only
23:38
Speaker 3: work with women, gender non conforming or queer or people
23:43
Speaker 3: of color in terms of like the books that we spotlight,
23:47
Speaker 3: the the companies that we work with for like the
23:51
Speaker 3: products that come with the books, because we do send
23:54
Speaker 3: out like a sticker or like a bookmark or something
23:56
Speaker 3: like small and cute, and we do quarterly boxes that
23:59
Speaker 3: are full of goodies and books and those all those
24:01
Speaker 3: things come from small marginalized identity businesses including like our
24:07
Speaker 3: our web developer and our you know, our podcast editor
24:10
Speaker 3: are our printer that we use for like inserts and
24:13
Speaker 3: stickers and stuff. So like when we spend money on something,
24:17
Speaker 3: we are doing that within our values. When we take
24:20
Speaker 3: money from someone, I don't care who we take money
24:23
Speaker 3: from as long as that product is aligned with us. Gosh,
24:30
Speaker 3: and very rarely have we worked with CIS men and
24:37
Speaker 3: CIS owned businesses, this male owned businesses. But I'm not
24:41
Speaker 3: going to say no to if like Casper Mattresses or
24:44
Speaker 3: something like, I'm just gonna assume their own by a
24:46
Speaker 3: white guy. If Casper Mattress wants to, like give me
24:49
Speaker 3: a bajillion dollars to pitch them on our podcast, like
24:52
Speaker 3: or like a free mattress like thank you, yeah, yes,
24:56
Speaker 3: and like one for all of our friends, you know,
24:58
Speaker 3: like right, because you're getting me money and I feel
25:01
Speaker 3: like that's feminist. But if it's like if it's like
25:06
Speaker 3: a company that sells only like maga hats, absolutely not
25:10
Speaker 3: like I don't care if you give me a bajillion dollars,
25:13
Speaker 3: I'm not going to you know, sell ar fifteens on
25:16
Speaker 3: our podcast. But right, but like a mattress owned by
25:21
Speaker 3: this why guy? Probably yeah yep.
25:24
Speaker 1: So like that's like we could be really picky.
25:26
Speaker 3: But thankfully we haven't had to have run into those issues.
25:32
Speaker 3: It's the flows of money, right, It's the flow of
25:35
Speaker 3: capitalism and like redistributing it. And that's one thing also
25:38
Speaker 3: is like we work primarily with women owned businesses because
25:43
Speaker 3: studies have shown when you put capital in the hands
25:46
Speaker 3: of a woman owned business a, you will lift generations
25:49
Speaker 3: out of poverty, but be it will also be redistributed
25:52
Speaker 3: amongst that community. So the fact that you know, we
25:56
Speaker 3: are more likely to give our dollars, we are one
26:00
Speaker 3: hundred percent likely to give our dollars to small women
26:02
Speaker 3: and minority on businesses just means that that money continues
26:07
Speaker 3: to do good in whatever community they serve instead of
26:12
Speaker 3: going into if we were to give money to Bezos,
26:14
Speaker 3: for instance, that's just going into his pockets and into
26:17
Speaker 3: his like four oh one K. Does he even have
26:19
Speaker 3: a four oh one k? Probably not, like he is
26:21
Speaker 3: a four oh one K, but like, well you know
26:23
Speaker 3: what I mean, it's going into like investments, which doesn't
26:26
Speaker 3: do anybody any good except for him.
26:28
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, yeah, you ended up hitting on a
26:33
Speaker 2: topic which was an inside joke for us about me
26:35
Speaker 2: trying to get a damn mattress from Jump like because right,
26:38
Speaker 2: well that's hilarious. Right before I started everyone that was
26:41
Speaker 2: one of the big things is individual mattresses, and I
26:44
Speaker 2: was like, I want one. That started the best.
26:46
Speaker 3: We've gotten as vibrators. We got vibrators.
26:50
Speaker 2: We'll be happy with that too, but.
26:52
Speaker 3: They were woman owned. They were a woman Latina owned,
26:54
Speaker 3: so like.
26:55
Speaker 2: We had someone on who had those amazing vibrators, like,
26:57
Speaker 2: I want one. We never got it, though I was
26:59
Speaker 2: really hoping.
27:01
Speaker 1: I'm sorry I paid for it, but I got it anyway.
27:08
Speaker 1: Moving well, that's one of the interesting things about I
27:16
Speaker 1: think about this a lot, and sometimes I think this
27:18
Speaker 1: is kind of a petty thought, but sometimes I'm like, no,
27:21
Speaker 1: this is completely legitimate. But we sometimes get teased because
27:27
Speaker 1: we turned down a lot of ads. We really do
27:31
Speaker 1: and there was this infamous study it so Mantha didn't
27:36
Speaker 1: do it well. I had to fill out like this
27:38
Speaker 1: huge form where you just it was. It took me
27:43
Speaker 1: four hours and it was just like sponsors that you
27:46
Speaker 1: might be okay with working with. And I feel like
27:50
Speaker 1: for people who want to uphold intersectional feminism, that was
27:56
Speaker 1: a homework excignment because I literally had to look up
27:58
Speaker 1: every company yep, what they do, where do they donate
28:02
Speaker 1: their money, all of this stuff. And I think that
28:05
Speaker 1: people who issued it were just polly white men who
28:09
Speaker 1: didn't think like I'm not. They're like, oh, do you
28:12
Speaker 1: like this or do you not like that? Like that
28:14
Speaker 1: kind of dichotomy versus wait, what do they stand for?
28:17
Speaker 1: What do they do? And sometimes I get a little
28:19
Speaker 1: grumpy because I'll hear some male colleagues of ours. We're like, oh,
28:23
Speaker 1: I just said yes to that because I like that.
28:25
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, okay, but did you know about this
28:28
Speaker 1: right right? Right?
28:30
Speaker 3: Did you know they single handedly caused the fires on MAUI.
28:33
Speaker 2: Like, you know, like the content, we really would have
28:36
Speaker 2: an ad that we said yes to two years prior
28:39
Speaker 2: and then come back and go, oh, well, here's a
28:41
Speaker 2: new controversy and we can't use them now, whether it's
28:43
Speaker 2: like strike things or union things or or you recall
28:47
Speaker 2: or you found out that the CEO was a man
28:48
Speaker 2: who did not care about people when it was branded
28:51
Speaker 2: as women owned. Like there are so many things that
28:53
Speaker 2: came back. We're like, what's happening? And then not only
28:57
Speaker 2: do we say no, and probably Anie because Andy does
29:00
Speaker 2: I love you Anie, She's already justified. Why we get
29:02
Speaker 2: another pushback like are you sure? Now? Tell me why again?
29:06
Speaker 2: Tell us why again? Like and I'm not we love
29:08
Speaker 2: our as people. Please don't think this because they're just
29:10
Speaker 2: doing their job. But the of the matter is like
29:13
Speaker 2: there is extra work to what you think. And like
29:16
Speaker 2: we got another ad vetting today and I'm looking at it.
29:18
Speaker 2: I'm like, well, we know this already controversy, so we
29:21
Speaker 2: definitely probably will say you know, like all these things,
29:23
Speaker 2: I already know what Anie said in turning it down.
29:26
Speaker 2: It was a huge company, and it's like, this is
29:28
Speaker 2: what we have to do and then justify two or
29:31
Speaker 2: three times about why we can't work with them.
29:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, and even and it sucks too. It's like it's
29:36
Speaker 3: hard for us when we are purchasing things. So for
29:40
Speaker 3: the first couple of years I live in Minneapolis, we
29:44
Speaker 3: were using you line for our boxes. We didn't have
29:47
Speaker 3: branded boxes. We were using you Line because they are
29:50
Speaker 3: just across the state line and Wisconsin. I could go
29:52
Speaker 3: pick them up, Like it was really easy. I didn't
29:55
Speaker 3: have to paper shipping, and they were the cheapest on
29:57
Speaker 3: the market. Well, they're the cheapest on the market because
29:59
Speaker 3: they're a bajillion dollar industry and they're one of Trump's
30:02
Speaker 3: largest donors. That family, the U Line family. As soon
30:06
Speaker 3: as I learned that, I was like, like, now I
30:08
Speaker 3: have to I had to pay more to find something.
30:15
Speaker 3: But it ended up being great because then I found
30:16
Speaker 3: a family owned box printing company here in Saint Paul
30:20
Speaker 3: that they were so like, they were so wonderful right
30:24
Speaker 3: where they like I was sick and they like brought
30:27
Speaker 3: they brought samples to my house just so I could
30:30
Speaker 3: like choose the ink color and then we got the
30:32
Speaker 3: customerz like it turned out great. Shout out to Tilsner Carton.
30:37
Speaker 2: Myself was like this like an office episode of like
30:40
Speaker 2: business owners and like they do the like and that,
30:44
Speaker 2: but I was like, help them.
30:46
Speaker 3: I didn't have the time at the time to do
30:49
Speaker 3: my due diligence of like vetting. It was just like
30:51
Speaker 3: where everybody got their boxes from, you know, like, oh,
30:54
Speaker 3: it was so frustrating and so now, yeah, so now
30:57
Speaker 3: we don't use you line. And I suggest you'd not
30:59
Speaker 3: use you line because they're a giant donor to the
31:03
Speaker 3: far right.
31:04
Speaker 2: So there's so many conversations like that.
31:06
Speaker 3: But at least our audiences know that we are putting
31:08
Speaker 3: in that due diligence now, like we learn our lessons.
31:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, and when we get calls in is nice.
31:14
Speaker 3: Yeah, And if we are doing I mean, there's only
31:17
Speaker 3: so much work and research we can do, but we're
31:20
Speaker 3: doing the best that we can. And I think that
31:22
Speaker 3: our audiences as an audience of yours, I know I
31:25
Speaker 3: appreciate it, and I also know that y'all need to
31:28
Speaker 3: make money. You can't do this for free.
31:32
Speaker 2: I'm sure people will be like, why podcasting was like
31:34
Speaker 2: that to begin with?
31:35
Speaker 3: It was, but it's not you know.
31:48
Speaker 2: One of the other things I think about especially when
31:50
Speaker 2: it comes to like feminist businesses. You want to be
31:53
Speaker 2: the person who supports the small businesses, that supports the
31:56
Speaker 2: marginalized businesses as well. And for the longest time, ATS
32:01
Speaker 2: was the to go spot, and now you were getting
32:04
Speaker 2: all this information about, oh, they're not being treated well.
32:07
Speaker 2: So this comes to the point of like, okay, a,
32:09
Speaker 2: as a small owner of a business, where do you
32:12
Speaker 2: go b as a consumer? How do you navigate that
32:15
Speaker 2: as well so that you're doing what you need to
32:18
Speaker 2: do to truly help those businesses? Like how do you
32:21
Speaker 2: go through all of that?
32:24
Speaker 3: Yeah, So there are a lot of marketplaces like at
32:26
Speaker 3: C and for small businesses too, there are a lot
32:28
Speaker 3: of like wholesale marketplaces. And one thing that I do
32:31
Speaker 3: is like there's the ability to message like the business
32:33
Speaker 3: owner on all of these marketplaces. At C we use
32:36
Speaker 3: fair for a lot of our wholesale goods, and then
32:40
Speaker 3: I always ask them like, how do you prefer that
32:42
Speaker 3: I make this purchase? Like would you like to invoice
32:45
Speaker 3: me directly? Because yeah, I want to make sure that
32:48
Speaker 3: they're getting all of the dollars, so Etsy's not going
32:50
Speaker 3: to hold on to, you know, six thousand dollars inevitably
32:54
Speaker 3: for six months or something like what Etsy is doing
32:56
Speaker 3: is really frustrating for a lot of makers. So I
32:58
Speaker 3: would just go, you know, if I see something that
33:00
Speaker 3: I really like, absolutely message the creator and just say
33:06
Speaker 3: how what is the best way for me to support
33:08
Speaker 3: you and and make it as easy as possible for them.
33:11
Speaker 3: It's also like hard to do and it's it's time consuming.
33:15
Speaker 3: So they're on Etsy for a reason, and so I'm
33:18
Speaker 3: sure they're not going to be like, well, don't buy
33:19
Speaker 3: from Etsy. They would rather you buy from Etsy than
33:21
Speaker 3: not buy it, all right, So if you don't have
33:24
Speaker 3: the time or energy or spoons to spend on you know,
33:27
Speaker 3: going out of your way to message the artist or
33:29
Speaker 3: the creator like, it's fine, But if you do have
33:33
Speaker 3: that extra energy to spend, please.
33:35
Speaker 2: Do Essentially, Like what it comes down to is, I
33:37
Speaker 2: know there's a lot of small businesses and trying to
33:39
Speaker 2: take off. Essentially they're hoping that they're they're gonna make
33:43
Speaker 2: the the gold mine of being viral. I know that's
33:47
Speaker 2: the new thing, and that's let's just be real honest,
33:48
Speaker 2: that's rare. That's not going to happen to most small businesses.
33:51
Speaker 2: As much as we would love it. I know, like
33:53
Speaker 2: the small restaurants are hoping to buy the Keith Lee
33:55
Speaker 2: of TikTok will come through and and like just blow
33:58
Speaker 2: up their business. But that's that's a rare occasion for
34:00
Speaker 2: any business owner who's trying to be especially women, because
34:02
Speaker 2: we know that they are the least likely to get
34:06
Speaker 2: any help when it comes to advertising any of that.
34:09
Speaker 2: How what's the best route for them to have their
34:12
Speaker 2: business take off or at least to be profitable.
34:15
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh, that's okay, that's excellent. That's an excellent question.
34:18
Speaker 3: First off, I will say that even going viral doesn't
34:21
Speaker 3: do We have had several of our TikTok videos, you know,
34:27
Speaker 3: get five hundred thousand, a million views. It barely moves
34:33
Speaker 3: the needle for us. We will get a lot of traffic,
34:36
Speaker 3: but it doesn't necessarily traffic doesn't equal sales. Right, We'll
34:39
Speaker 3: get a lot of followers, followers, you can't you can't
34:42
Speaker 3: make money on followers. So it's like converting virality is
34:46
Speaker 3: really hard for a lot of people. So there's that.
34:51
Speaker 3: But I also think that there are so many really
34:54
Speaker 3: really cool organizations that are created just for small business owners.
35:02
Speaker 3: Insert identity here, right, if that's queer small business owners,
35:05
Speaker 3: if that's black small business owners and women's small business
35:08
Speaker 3: owners have Like there are so many resources, and I'm
35:11
Speaker 3: gonna shout out a couple of them in particular. I
35:14
Speaker 3: was a part of the Tory Birch Foundation Fellowship in
35:16
Speaker 3: twenty twenty one and they select it's founded by Tory Birch,
35:21
Speaker 3: and she actually created her fashion line so she could
35:24
Speaker 3: give back. This is what I'm saying, Like women do
35:27
Speaker 3: cool with their businesses and their money. Like she she
35:30
Speaker 3: likes fashion, but she was like, but I want my
35:32
Speaker 3: fashion to do something and like support other woman business owners.
35:36
Speaker 3: And so she launched the Tory Birch Foundation, which focuses
35:40
Speaker 3: solely on women owned small businesses and getting them up
35:44
Speaker 3: off the ground and giving them the resources that they
35:46
Speaker 3: need to succeed. And so every year they pick fifty
35:50
Speaker 3: women owned small businesses across the country and I from
35:53
Speaker 3: this book club was one of them in twenty twenty one.
35:55
Speaker 3: And it's a cohort of women owned businesses from all
36:00
Speaker 3: different industries from you know, finance, tech to restaurants to
36:06
Speaker 3: roofing companies, and we all come together online to learn
36:13
Speaker 3: the basics of business, learn the ins and outs learn
36:15
Speaker 3: new skills. But also I think the most important thing
36:19
Speaker 3: that comes out of these kind of incubators or accelerators
36:22
Speaker 3: or fellowship programs is the connections that you make with
36:24
Speaker 3: other small businesses. Like I have made so many close
36:28
Speaker 3: friends through these kinds of things who will be there
36:31
Speaker 3: to support me. They're just a text message away, you know.
36:33
Speaker 3: Or we have a very active WhatsApp group that is
36:36
Speaker 3: just like I have to mute it most of the
36:38
Speaker 3: time because it is so so active, which is lovely.
36:43
Speaker 1: Right.
36:44
Speaker 3: So I think that women especially tend to lean on
36:49
Speaker 3: their communities or or ought to learn how to lean
36:56
Speaker 3: on our communities for support in all sorts of ways.
36:58
Speaker 3: Whatever that means, Like, hey, does anybody have like a
37:01
Speaker 3: marketing professional? I mean just like just yesterday I got
37:05
Speaker 3: an email from somebody in the Tory britsh Fellowship that
37:08
Speaker 3: was like, Hey, I'm looking for somebody who specifically does
37:11
Speaker 3: you know CpG consumer package goods sales through Klavio, which
37:18
Speaker 3: is like an email client. And I was like, I
37:20
Speaker 3: actually have somebody who works with integrations with WU commerce,
37:25
Speaker 3: Like these are very very specific asks. It's like, oh wait,
37:29
Speaker 3: there's somebody in this group that knows exactly what you
37:31
Speaker 3: need and like can make that introduction. So it's just
37:33
Speaker 3: a way to like to network and to like grow
37:37
Speaker 3: your connections so you have you have those resources when
37:42
Speaker 3: you need them. So yeah, the Torribrtch Foundation has been
37:46
Speaker 3: fantastic the connections that I've made there. But also there
37:49
Speaker 3: are local organizations like this too. So I'm also part
37:53
Speaker 3: of Lunar Startups, which is just Minnesota based and they
37:59
Speaker 3: work with under estimated and underrepresented founders, so they specifically
38:04
Speaker 3: work with people of color, women and queer folks. So
38:08
Speaker 3: I was a part of that. During the pandemic, we
38:09
Speaker 3: started March like third of twenty twenty in person in
38:13
Speaker 3: Saint Paul, and then the world cut out and we
38:16
Speaker 3: all moved to Zoom crying, and it was great. We
38:20
Speaker 3: were all in the trenches together at least like fifteen
38:23
Speaker 3: you know, small business owners in the Twin Cities, We're like,
38:25
Speaker 3: what do we need?
38:25
Speaker 1: Everything sucks.
38:27
Speaker 3: So I was so glad to have that resource because
38:29
Speaker 3: I don't know what I would have done otherwise. So
38:31
Speaker 3: it's just like, building these communities is so necessary for
38:36
Speaker 3: small feminist business owners because we cannot do this in
38:40
Speaker 3: a vacuum. But we require. That's one thing that we
38:43
Speaker 3: learned in the pandemic, or we didn't warn the pandemic
38:45
Speaker 3: that we should have learned, was like, we need to
38:47
Speaker 3: take care of the community's needs in order to take
38:49
Speaker 3: care of our own needs. And until we take care
38:51
Speaker 3: of the community around us, you know whatever that means, however,
38:54
Speaker 3: you to find community like, we cannot succeed full stop.
38:59
Speaker 3: So what is it? But yeah, how do we take
39:00
Speaker 3: care of everybody's needs in order to take care of
39:02
Speaker 3: our own needs? I think Robin waal Chimer said it
39:05
Speaker 3: best in Braiding Sweet Grass. It's my favorite, one of
39:08
Speaker 3: my favorite lines of any book ever. She says that
39:11
Speaker 3: all flourishing is mutual. We cannot flourish until we are
39:16
Speaker 3: in all of it together flourishing. There's no individual flourishing
39:22
Speaker 3: like that.
39:24
Speaker 1: And it's true. The pandemic really showcased for like small businesses.
39:29
Speaker 1: It started that conversation of like, oh, well, we've been
39:34
Speaker 1: kind of pushing this to the side, ignoring this for
39:36
Speaker 1: so long, and now we have we're trying to have
39:40
Speaker 1: some conversations about it, some more healthy or helpful than others.
39:44
Speaker 1: But there was that aspect I did want to touch
39:47
Speaker 1: on and I'm hoping that this will give you some
39:52
Speaker 1: room to really rant because it's something that bothers me.
39:56
Speaker 1: Is a lot of times, Samantha kind of alluded to it.
40:00
Speaker 1: Because we're feminist podcasts, we're women moms in the name,
40:05
Speaker 1: we get a lot of ad requests from businesses that
40:11
Speaker 1: are pretending to be feminists or any any like intersection
40:16
Speaker 1: with it, like queer, Like during Black History Month, all
40:19
Speaker 1: of this happens, and it's just like I've multiple times
40:23
Speaker 1: been like, okay, but you're saying you're donating this, what
40:26
Speaker 1: are you donating it to? And then I never hear
40:29
Speaker 1: anything again. What are your thoughts on the people who
40:35
Speaker 1: are trying to use this feminist business model to pretend
40:41
Speaker 1: and to cash in, but are actually like the most
40:45
Speaker 1: superficial things.
40:49
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, let me, let me get out my soapbox.
40:56
Speaker 3: You're alluding to incredibly performative feminism, and it is most
40:59
Speaker 3: like white feminism if we're gonna keep it in the
41:02
Speaker 3: realm of feminist we get so many, so many book
41:09
Speaker 3: pitches in particular that are like unleash the Goddess within,
41:13
Speaker 3: or like your Warrior Woman says Rar, or like boss Babe.
41:18
Speaker 3: But how to start your girl boss empire. And it's like,
41:21
Speaker 3: none of those things are feminist. That is so disgusting.
41:23
Speaker 3: Those are so neoliberal, capitalist junk. Can we get to
41:30
Speaker 3: the second and third layer of this because your surface
41:33
Speaker 3: layer of white feminism is I'm allergic to it, like
41:35
Speaker 3: please please step away. Yeah, it makes me very angry.
41:41
Speaker 3: But the thing is like I just simply say, like,
41:45
Speaker 3: thank you so much. This does not align. We are
41:48
Speaker 3: really trying to amplify the voices of folks on the margins,
41:53
Speaker 3: not let's be honest, like rich white, blonde yoga instructing
42:00
Speaker 3: green smoothie drinking privileged women. And if you are that,
42:05
Speaker 3: I'm so glad that you are here because you need
42:07
Speaker 3: to You need this kind of information in your life.
42:11
Speaker 3: The stuff that stuff, that stuff mom never told you,
42:13
Speaker 3: you know, covers It's like that's one way to broaden
42:17
Speaker 3: your horizons. And and yeah, there are a lot of
42:22
Speaker 3: companies out there and organizations out there that just give
42:25
Speaker 3: lip service to whatever is in the zeitgeist right that
42:30
Speaker 3: they're raising money or they donate to, you know, we
42:35
Speaker 3: say social justice organizations. We say we donate to social
42:38
Speaker 3: justice organizations every month, and we don't name what they
42:41
Speaker 3: are publicly because for a number of reasons, because we're
42:47
Speaker 3: not marketing on that, like we're not using that as
42:50
Speaker 3: a marketing tool, and so our members know where the
42:54
Speaker 3: money is going. But also I am a strong believer.
42:58
Speaker 3: I grew up Catholic. This is where I wanted. I
43:00
Speaker 3: grew up Catholic and like social justice Catholic, though like
43:04
Speaker 3: the real the.
43:06
Speaker 4: Reals, like everybody get some emails. I'm just kidding, sorry,
43:14
Speaker 4: but not like but not not Catholic or it's like
43:16
Speaker 4: anti abortion Catholic, but but like feed the feed the
43:19
Speaker 4: hungry and clothe the naked.
43:21
Speaker 3: Catholic is like how I grew up. And one of
43:24
Speaker 3: the things that really stuck with me from Catholic school
43:28
Speaker 3: is when there's a there's a verse in the Bible.
43:31
Speaker 3: And don't ask me what part of the Bible, I
43:33
Speaker 3: have no clue at this point, but there's a verse
43:36
Speaker 3: where it says, when you pray, go into a closet
43:38
Speaker 3: and pray in solitude, nobody needs to know that you're praying,
43:42
Speaker 3: Like you're not praying for everybody's brownie points. That's performative.
43:46
Speaker 3: And the same thing goes with our our social justice
43:49
Speaker 3: and our activism, like yes, we need to be out marching. Yes,
43:53
Speaker 3: we need to use our privilege for good those of
43:56
Speaker 3: us who have privilege. Yes, we need to put our
43:58
Speaker 3: bodies on the lines, especially white bodies on the lines
44:00
Speaker 3: in front of people of color. Like, yes, those are
44:03
Speaker 3: things we need to be doing. And at the same time,
44:06
Speaker 3: your entire Facebook feed doesn't need to know that you
44:08
Speaker 3: just donated fifty dollars to plan Parenthood. That's who is
44:11
Speaker 3: that doing. That's just making you feel good. And so
44:14
Speaker 3: I think a lot of businesses think that, you know,
44:18
Speaker 3: saying that they're going to donate X, Y and Z
44:21
Speaker 3: is just like it's just lip service, it's just a
44:24
Speaker 3: marketing ploy And it's really frustrating for me to see
44:29
Speaker 3: as a company who has donated tens of thousands of
44:32
Speaker 3: dollars of our profit to social justice organizations across the world,
44:37
Speaker 3: but we don't use it. We're doing it in our
44:40
Speaker 3: closet and praying God, I'm so sorry, and this is
44:44
Speaker 3: how I get canceled.
44:46
Speaker 1: So so you know, Kncel, it is so frustrating and
45:05
Speaker 1: I can't we can't go into this because it'll become
45:07
Speaker 1: a whole railroad going off the railroad situation. But it's
45:10
Speaker 1: like I hate that. I'm into what you're doing. I'm
45:14
Speaker 1: into what you're saying, and I asked for any details
45:16
Speaker 1: and then none come forth. And then if they do,
45:21
Speaker 1: if you're like I don't know, bud Light and you
45:23
Speaker 1: do this thing and then they freak out and backtrack immediately,
45:27
Speaker 1: like it's like illuminating because it tells me you literally
45:31
Speaker 1: have never thought about what it must be like to
45:34
Speaker 1: be a transperson in this case and all of the
45:37
Speaker 1: backlash that might be, but you thought it would be
45:40
Speaker 1: cool to cash it. Like it's like uninformed. It's like
45:45
Speaker 1: not even it's malicious, but it's almost more uninformed than malicious.
45:49
Speaker 3: First off, that woman in particular, Dylan who just got
45:55
Speaker 3: brutally attacked online because she got bud Light, said to
45:58
Speaker 3: her like that's just my heart goes out to her.
46:02
Speaker 3: What I would prefer bud Light Anheuser Busch and MBEV
46:05
Speaker 3: who owns like every major beer company in this country,
46:09
Speaker 3: and beyond, what I would prefer to see them do
46:13
Speaker 3: is have trans folks on their board of directors, you know,
46:16
Speaker 3: like I don't give a if they are giving a
46:20
Speaker 3: can of beer to Dylan on TikTok. What I give
46:25
Speaker 3: about is if you are including their voices in decision
46:28
Speaker 3: making rooms, like transfolts need to be in the work
46:31
Speaker 3: room where it happens, you know, like it's not just yeah,
46:35
Speaker 3: that is the definition of performative. If they had had
46:38
Speaker 3: a trans person in their like marketing, the influencer outreach division,
46:44
Speaker 3: like that wouldn't have happened.
46:47
Speaker 2: That's kind of the epitome of like the privilege that yeah,
46:50
Speaker 2: people don't realize there is that the fact that Annheuser
46:53
Speaker 2: Busch they had a little bit of backlash. All they
46:56
Speaker 2: did was stay silent, literally allowing this woman to take
46:59
Speaker 2: all the threats and harassment and being like, yep, oh,
47:02
Speaker 2: well that didn't work. That didn't well, it did partially
47:05
Speaker 2: pay out for a minute because there were supporters for
47:07
Speaker 2: the second and then their silence and apology shows not
47:12
Speaker 2: only their blindness, ignorance and harmful behavior in everything that
47:17
Speaker 2: they just did without again talking to the right community.
47:20
Speaker 2: Who did they talk to. They're like, this person's a
47:23
Speaker 2: TikTok famous little let's send a beer, which we already
47:27
Speaker 2: know all the miss on that and we're not going
47:29
Speaker 2: to talk about. But that kind of comes back to
47:32
Speaker 2: this whole conversation of like who is this for? Why
47:36
Speaker 2: are you doing this? And what does this do? And
47:38
Speaker 2: then when we look at who may be a woman,
47:41
Speaker 2: and this is the whole conversation. Ay, and I've had
47:43
Speaker 2: plenty of times women supporting women, but what are these
47:46
Speaker 2: women actually doing and what are they doing that is
47:49
Speaker 2: good for other women and other marginalized folks. So we
47:52
Speaker 2: have to backtrack, like, no, it can't just be simply
47:55
Speaker 2: this and this. There's a lot of women own businesses.
47:57
Speaker 2: Like I think about this often because again coming back,
48:00
Speaker 2: that's because I tried to be is whatever. Well, I'm like, yeah,
48:03
Speaker 2: but this person, Oh she's got she's got some things
48:05
Speaker 2: on here that I do not want to support. She
48:06
Speaker 2: has anti abortion, she has all these things, and I'm like,
48:09
Speaker 2: I can't support that. I have to dig in to
48:11
Speaker 2: see who she's selling to or someone who has no standards.
48:14
Speaker 2: And I get to the point of like, yeah, you
48:16
Speaker 2: have to make a business, I get it, but you're
48:18
Speaker 2: willing to put mega stuff onto your stuff and then
48:21
Speaker 2: sell it and then also Black Lives matter that doesn't work.
48:25
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was that that reminds me like when we
48:27
Speaker 3: were doing whatever I'm I was purchasing for one of
48:30
Speaker 3: our boxes ones. There was a product that I thought
48:32
Speaker 3: was so cute and it came in all these different
48:33
Speaker 3: designs and I was like, ooh, so close to purchasing,
48:36
Speaker 3: and then I kept going and scrolling and I was like,
48:38
Speaker 3: uh uh oh when you go to the review.
48:44
Speaker 2: So you go through the reviews and you see who
48:46
Speaker 2: she's You're like, ma'am, oh.
48:49
Speaker 3: We're in Minneapolis. We are not supporting somebody who has
48:53
Speaker 3: Blue Lives Matter on there.
48:57
Speaker 2: That's the other part to that, like we have to
48:59
Speaker 2: hold our own accountable as well. And I say this
49:01
Speaker 2: as an Asian woman who all this rhetorics and very
49:05
Speaker 2: very like white supremacist rhetoric that I'm like, I do
49:07
Speaker 2: not support this. I do not support them just because
49:09
Speaker 2: they're an Asian woman. We have to have that conversation
49:13
Speaker 2: of like that fine line of just because it seems
49:16
Speaker 2: okay because on the outside, this is a person of color,
49:19
Speaker 2: she's an Asian woman, Okay, cool, cool, cool cool. Even
49:21
Speaker 2: queer people you're like, oh they're queer. Oh, but they're
49:23
Speaker 2: they're staunchly still somehow republican. Like I don't I don't
49:27
Speaker 2: get this, but I have to know that this is
49:30
Speaker 2: not necessarily just supporting, like that's right, you have to
49:34
Speaker 2: dig deeper.
49:35
Speaker 3: Holes come in every shade race and you know color,
49:38
Speaker 3: like everybody can has the potential to be a total.
49:43
Speaker 2: Yes, that's how I live. Everybody's probably an I'm just kidding.
49:49
Speaker 3: I'm just kidding. So yeah, I like to think that
49:55
Speaker 3: I want to support, you know, first and foremost intersectional
50:00
Speaker 3: progressive businesses, just personally. But yeah, and if that's not available,
50:07
Speaker 3: a minority owned business, a woman owned business is better
50:10
Speaker 3: than again, it's better than Amazon. But yes, being mindful
50:18
Speaker 3: of like what's that person likely going to do and
50:21
Speaker 3: support with their dollars is really important to me.
50:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I do think you said something earlier that
50:27
Speaker 1: I hadn't really thought about it before. But I often
50:30
Speaker 1: complain about this extra work we have to do, and
50:32
Speaker 1: I complain like it's like hm hmm, I wish I
50:35
Speaker 1: could just be like, oh, yeah, I like that thing.
50:37
Speaker 1: That's fine. But you're right, it does. I have heard
50:41
Speaker 1: from friends who have told me like, I like that,
50:44
Speaker 1: I know that you do that. It makes me feel better.
50:47
Speaker 1: And that's not to say we've made mistakes. We've said
50:50
Speaker 1: yes to things that later turned out to be terrible
50:54
Speaker 1: and we try to learn from that and be like, Okay,
50:58
Speaker 1: not that one again, because a lot of times in
51:00
Speaker 1: our company they'll be like, you said yes to it once,
51:02
Speaker 1: surely yes again No, not always, but it is like,
51:09
Speaker 1: it is a lot of work, and I don't think
51:12
Speaker 1: everyone has the time to do it, yea, or even
51:17
Speaker 1: the emotional because we were talking about this the other day,
51:20
Speaker 1: like women typically or marginalized people typically are more drained
51:23
Speaker 1: from what from the patriarchy, from white supremacy and all
51:27
Speaker 1: this stuff.
51:28
Speaker 3: What's happening in the world.
51:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, so maybe you don't have the time to vet
51:34
Speaker 1: certain things. So I do think that is a value.
51:36
Speaker 1: I think that's something. I'm glad that you said that.
51:38
Speaker 1: I'm gonna you put a more positive spin on this
51:41
Speaker 1: whole thing for me.
51:44
Speaker 3: And it comes from a place of privilege, right that
51:47
Speaker 3: we I in particular have the time to do this
51:51
Speaker 3: research and can afford it. And that's what's really I
51:56
Speaker 3: don't want to discount the privilege that I hold to
52:00
Speaker 3: be really mindful as a as an agent of capitalism,
52:04
Speaker 3: because it's not not everybody has this privilege. Not everybody
52:10
Speaker 3: can afford to shop at you know, small mom and
52:12
Speaker 3: pop grocery stores because they are more expensive. If Amazon
52:17
Speaker 3: and Walmart are what you can budget for, I am
52:21
Speaker 3: fully supportive of that. You know, that is where you
52:25
Speaker 3: are in your life in the society to society sucks, Like,
52:30
Speaker 3: don't feel bad if that's if that's where you are,
52:34
Speaker 3: Please don't feel bad. Shame is not a tool of
52:37
Speaker 3: social justice, right, Like, it's not going to help anybody
52:40
Speaker 3: for me to say, like you're shopping at Walmart? Hell yeah,
52:44
Speaker 3: like some some people have to. And that's okay because
52:49
Speaker 3: I do have a little bit more time and resources.
52:55
Speaker 3: I don't need to. But I am glad that it
52:57
Speaker 3: exists for the people who need it. And that same
53:01
Speaker 3: goes for every institution, right that there are institutions that exist,
53:08
Speaker 3: there are stores that exist for the people who need it,
53:10
Speaker 3: and I'm glad they exist. Do I wish? Do I
53:15
Speaker 3: wish they had more ethical practices? Absolutely, But that's something
53:19
Speaker 3: I can do with my resources and my privilege is
53:21
Speaker 3: to push back and to call make the phone calls
53:24
Speaker 3: and to you know, say and demand better of these
53:28
Speaker 3: companies so that they can continue to support underprivileged communities.
53:33
Speaker 1: Yes, this is true. I think about this every time
53:37
Speaker 1: voting comes up, which you've probably heard is rough in Georgia.
53:41
Speaker 1: Is that like, I don't know how people who have
53:45
Speaker 1: kids who work many jobs have the time to vote
53:49
Speaker 1: but also have the time to research who to vote for,
53:51
Speaker 1: because a lot of times it'll be like I can't
53:53
Speaker 1: find information about any of this, so I'm like, I
53:56
Speaker 1: guess this guy I don't know. So that is a
53:59
Speaker 1: big conversation of It's frustrating because it's like the Walmarts
54:06
Speaker 1: of the world are playing a part and keeping us
54:10
Speaker 1: in this situation, but also they are important because we
54:15
Speaker 1: are in the situation. It's it's frustrating, but yeah, I
54:19
Speaker 1: mean it is, especially you know, we're in city, but
54:24
Speaker 1: when I'm just in the small town, it's only game
54:27
Speaker 1: in town. That was like that was.
54:29
Speaker 3: It exactly same? Yeah, I grew up in northern Indiana,
54:33
Speaker 3: and it's like, you got your groceries at Walmart, you
54:36
Speaker 3: bought your you know, incidentals on Amazon. It's just what
54:39
Speaker 3: you do. There was a Barnes and Noble, like that's
54:42
Speaker 3: that was the bookstore.
54:43
Speaker 1: Yes, and you go hang out there and you were cool.
54:47
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, you get your Starbucks. Yes, that's fine, fine,
54:55
Speaker 3: because that's that's what is available, right, and that's what
54:58
Speaker 3: is in a budget. And and yeah, I'm never going
55:01
Speaker 3: to be here to shame somebody for doing what they
55:03
Speaker 3: need to do to get by.
55:04
Speaker 1: Yes, well, thank you so much, Renee for coming on
55:08
Speaker 1: here to spend the light. You are a friend. Officially, Yes,
55:11
Speaker 1: we could talk forever, but I suppose we should seriously
55:15
Speaker 1: just to sign off for this one. But let's hang
55:18
Speaker 1: out and just complain. I feel like I'm in a
55:20
Speaker 1: complaining movie, which is rare.
55:23
Speaker 2: For Me's a hobby that I have, complaining that.
55:30
Speaker 1: Yes, thank you, thank you, thank you. Where can the
55:33
Speaker 1: good listeners find you?
55:35
Speaker 3: The best place to go is Feminist book Club dot com.
55:37
Speaker 3: We're on Instagram at your Feminist book Club because Feminist
55:40
Speaker 3: book Club is taken on Instagram. But Feminist book Club
55:43
Speaker 3: is available on TikTok, so you can find this famous
55:45
Speaker 3: book club on TikTok. And uh, yeah, everything everything's on
55:49
Speaker 3: our website though. That's the best, the best place to go.
55:51
Speaker 1: Yes, and and you have show notes, which I am
55:54
Speaker 1: very jealous of.
55:56
Speaker 3: They're not extensive, but they are we have.
56:00
Speaker 1: I'm very jealous. Yes, just go check it out, listeners.
56:04
Speaker 1: It's amazing. Also, we will be on the show. We'll
56:09
Speaker 1: see how this goes. Yes. In the meantime, if you
56:14
Speaker 1: would like to contact us, you can Our email is
56:16
Speaker 1: stuff India, mom Stuff at iheartmeda dot com. You can
56:19
Speaker 1: find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcasts, or on
56:20
Speaker 1: Instagram and TikTok at Stuff I've Never Told You. We
56:23
Speaker 1: have a tea public store you can buy merch on there. Also,
56:27
Speaker 1: we have a book coming out well you can reorder
56:30
Speaker 1: it Stuff You should read Books dot com. Thanks as
56:32
Speaker 1: always to our super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya,
56:36
Speaker 1: and our contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you
56:38
Speaker 1: for listening Stuff I Never Told You This Question by
56:40
Speaker 1: heart Radio. For more podcast from my heart Radio, you
56:42
Speaker 1: can check out the heart Radio app Apple Podcasts where
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Speaker 1: you listening to you Stafish