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Guardian Angels · Centrally Speaking

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Centrally speaking, it's the central point of the church's family.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's speaking of issues.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: It would be an interesting.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: In particular, it is just from a Christian worldview.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: It is connected with Western second culture.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: In the spirit of the church's plunder, we take the perspective of the middle women, which is in agreement with the historic Christian Church.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_03: It's been a follow up principle ministry for 17 years.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_03: Is it commission with a great theological seminary?
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_03: He started thinking about an individual.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_03: He had three students and eight grandchildren and it's also going to get on centrally speaking beforehand.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: So welcome back to centrally speaking.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_03: We're glad to have you here.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: So good to be here.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's a privilege.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_03: We're glad to be able to talk with you about angels and the fruit of your research and thinking and also just pastoral thoughts for some 50 years.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_03: How did you get interested in this topic at Grace Theological Seminary?
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_03: How did this interest first start with you?
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what I would say is that one of the courses in systematic theology, part of the curriculum at Grace Seminary, was a course entitled God and the World.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: And it had several subsections to it.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: And one of those subsections was the study of biblical angelology, that is to say, what the Bible teaches us about angels.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, not myself having a very extensive background in biblical studies growing up, I knew essentially nothing about what the Bible has to say about angels.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so I sat there a number of weeks actually in this course working through and moving through the various scriptural scriptural material on that subject.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I have to say that I was astounded at how much the Bible has to say about angels, but also how so much of it is different from what's uh popular culture and popular thinking would have to say about angels.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and so I would say that my interest kind of was spurred at that time and more or less has developed over the years, but I would also say that over the years since that time, the public interest, popular interest, if you will, in the subject of angels certainly has not waned.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: If anything, it has gotten greater and greater.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: There were a number of television uh programs and series that were dealing with the subject of angels and had angels as a theme, a number of popular movies that were out.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the the one, of course, that that probably is the most interesting one is one in which John Travolta actually starred as, I think, Michael the Archangel, uh, as Chain Smoking Michael the Archangel.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so people, I think, over the years have sort of said, Oh, yeah, I know a lot about angels.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: I saw that movie or I saw that TV series.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: And and comparing that to what the scriptures have to say is quite different.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, there's there's interest, and I think uh there's a connection with what's going on in popular culture too.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: I agree that there's quite an interest in popular culture about guardian angels.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_03: Since you've thought about this for a while, where do you think that this interest in angels has come from in society?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_03: Is that because people are looking for self-protection or they're worried about how fragile life is?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_03: Is this an expression of spirituality?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_03: Where do you think this interest is coming from, Ronnie?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think first of all, I I would almost say all of the above that you've mentioned, but I think two things in particular have kind of meshed to produce, I think what now is maybe a greater interest in the idea of a guardian angel, maybe more now than than some years in the past.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's a combination of two things in particular.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, in a very strange sort of fashion, I think there there is almost a prevailing sense, almost a malaise of loneliness in our society, which is rather strange when you realize that we've never had more means of connectedness to each other than we have now.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm thinking specifically of technology.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: We have social media that connects people, theoretically connects people, but the irony of that is that it seems as if, and I think some surveys and some studies have revealed this, that that so many people today, in spite of this, feel lonely.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: They feel detached, they feel as if, oh, okay, well, I'm on certain social media platforms, but that doesn't really fill that sense of needing someone who is with me and someone who's with me regularly.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that combined with the fact that it goes without saying that there are a lot of things going on in our world today that create anxiety and fear and concern about safety and concern about the future.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: And when you put those two things together, that that abiding sense of loneliness and the fear and anxiety, the result is that I think people are really yearning for some person who can actually address that issue of loneliness in their lives, but not just to be with them, but somebody who has enough power to protect them from the fears that they have developed from everything that's going on around them.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: And in a sense, the natural person to look to in terms of that fulfilling the sense of someone who can take away that loneliness and provide protection is a guardian angel.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that quite possibly that may be it.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's that combination, at least those two things and other things that are going on as well.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_03: So somebody to be with you, somebody beside you, somebody who leads you through difficult health issues or maybe some difficult travel or you know, I can see that being something that people would gravitate to right now in this time.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_03: If one has any Christian proclivities or background, you would go to the Bible and say, Where might we find this in the Bible?
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_03: So if you go to the Bible, which you have, how frequently does the Bible speak about angels?
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe you could give us a percentage or portion of the Bible.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_03: What do you think?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that that's a really good question.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: And as I said, uh sitting in in the Course of God in the World, I was astounded at how much the Bible has to say about angels.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think many people are aware of just a couple of passages that maybe come to mind immediately, but the fact of the matter is that first of all, just the English word angel itself appears in the English Bible 273 times.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: And those 273 times are divided almost equally, almost evenly between the Old Testament and the New Testament.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so in the Old Testament, the English word Bible appears 108 times.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: In the New Testament, the English word Bible appears 165 times.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: And if we're doing the math and doing the statistic, we would say that 17 out of the 39 books of the Old Testament have the word angel in them.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: 17 out of the 27 books of the New Testament have the word angel in them.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that means a grand total of 34 out of 66 books of the Bible have the English word angel in them.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's over half of the 66 books of the Bible actually contain a reference to an angel.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: Now that's just the English word angel.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: There are other words that are translated apart from the word angel, but clearly those refer to angelic beings.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so, really, there's much more material than these appearances of the English word.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that gives us a sense of how frequently the concept of an angel and the activity and the description of angels is found in the scripture.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_03: That's a fair amount.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not like a passing reference.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_03: The angel might uh take a significant role in some places.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_03: So even if we're not just looking at the word, the context would say the angel might be a significant player.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_03: Would you agree?
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that the word is used to sort of introduce that person, and then the passage itself goes on to describe what's going on with that person, his activities, and all that sort of thing.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: So absolutely.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: So when you really kind of expand that and flesh that out, that is a large portion of biblical material.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_03: Well, how about the first time that the word angel is used in the Bible?
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: Just tell us about that context.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the first time that the English word angel, the word translated from the Old Testament Hebrew, appears actually in Genesis 16, 7.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: And the context is very interesting because it actually is the account of Abraham's wife Sarai, who has given her handmaiden, the Egyptian woman Hagar, to Abraham, because Sarai herself was not at that time able to bear children.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: And Hagar bore a son to Abraham.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, we know that that son was Ishmael.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, after that, Sarai realizes that she is looked down upon by her handmaiden Hagar, because Hagar has borne a son to Sarai's husband Abraham, when Sarai could not bear a son to him.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so essentially, to put it in the vernacular, Sarai begins to mistreat her handmaiden Hagar.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, she threatens to throw her out of the house.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, Hagar runs away.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: And we read in Genesis chapter 16, verse 7, that an angel came to her to encourage her and uh to bring her back into the household and to tell her to not be afraid that God did have a plan for her and for her offspring for Ishmael.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the first time that the word angel appears in the English Bible, Genesis 16, 7.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: However, very, very early on, the third chapter of Genesis, Genesis chapter 3, verse 24, it is after, of course, the fall of Adam and Eve and disobeying God regarding the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and God expels them from the Garden of Eden.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: And Genesis 3.24 tells us that God placed Cherubim at the eastern side of the Garden of Eden with a flaming sword to keep Adam and Eve from coming back into the Garden of Eden.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so there the word is not angel or the word translated angel in the English Bible.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually the word cherubim, which we understand to be a certain classification or category of angels.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that's plural, by the way.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: Cherub is one, cherubim is more than one.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so there is the appearance of angels there in Genesis 3, that early, Genesis 3, although the word itself is not used.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, from there on in, it shows up all kinds of times.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_03: Interesting that we'd see angels for a sense of judgment there in Genesis 3.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_03: But the first personal angel sent to a person really would be like a guardian angel.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: I would say so, because that angel ministered specifically to Hagar, and of course, her son Ishmael becoming essentially the progenitor of the Arab people.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's rather interesting that the first time an angel appears, at least, you know, in that using that terminology, is actually to an Egyptian woman who became the ancestor of the Arabs.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, as uh angels used to look after uh some considered not a part of God's people.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_03: Interesting.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you've looked at all these references in the Bible.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_03: Why don't you tell us that some of the particular characteristics that an angel has?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_03: Are a certain height?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_03: Do they have a certain weight?
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_03: Do they have wings?
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_03: What's the color of their hair?
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_03: What how would you give us a picture of what an angel is like?
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's it's very interesting because that's where popular culture digresses so much from the biblical material, because of course we think in terms of you know, the popular view of an angel is a being who has these great wings, and sometimes they're baby angels, you know, who kind of flitter all over the place, flying around, and all of those sorts of things.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: What the Bible essentially tells us is that when angels do appear to men, to people in general, and the thing about it is that very often, and we'll talk about this, I'm sure, in a little while, very often angels are here around us.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: We just don't see them.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: But there are certain times when the dimension in which the angels are and our dimension uh intersect, and we can see those angels.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: And according to the scriptures, generally speaking, when we see those angels, or when biblical characters have seen angels, those angels just look like men.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: They look like human beings, they look like us, their average height, their average appearance.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I suppose the question would be: how do we know that they just look like ordinary people?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: There's an interesting verse in Revelation 21, 17, Revelation 21, 17, and it's the description of the city of the new Jerusalem, which is the eternal state, the new heavens and the new earth and the new Jerusalem.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: John tells us in his vision of recorded in Revelation 21, 17, that there's a wall around the city of the new Jerusalem.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: Now we can't really go into why would there be a wall in such a perfect place, but there is a wall.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: There's a wall around the city of the New Jerusalem.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: And John says that in this vision, he is told that the height of the wall is 144 cubits.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's the English Bible translation, 144 cubits.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then that verse goes on to say that the height of the wall is 144 cubits according to the measure of a man that is of an angel.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, we know that the measure, the biblical measure of a cubit is the distance from a man's elbow to the tip of his middle finger, which is about 18 inches, something like that on average.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: But John tells us in Revelation 21 that the distance between an angel's elbow and an angel's, the tip of his middle finger, is the same as a man's cubit, the distance between a man's elbow and the tip of his middle finger.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: So that leads us to believe that size-wise, they are the same.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: There is another interesting passage in Hebrews chapter 13, verse 2.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: The writer of Hebrews is giving some instructions to his readers, very practical instructions.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things he says in Hebrews 13, too, is this be not forgetful to entertain strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: What's that all about?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: The writer to Hebrews is saying, Show hospitality to people you don't know, because you never know the people you don't know whom you invite into your home might actually be angels.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, I think I would suggest that if an angel is like nine feet tall with huge wings, you probably would know that there's an angel knocking at your door.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so you wouldn't be entertaining that angel unaware.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: But if a man comes to your door and asks if you could spare a sandwich or something like that, you might actually have an angel there.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think the writer to the Hebrews is actually referring to a specific event way back in the book of Genesis, chapter 18.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: And in Genesis chapter 18, the first two verses, we read that there were three men who appeared off in the distance while Abraham was sitting in the doorway of his tent in the oaks of Mamre, and he sees these three men coming.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it turns out that two of them, we find from Genesis 19, two of them were angels, and one of them apparently was a Theophany or a Christophany, that is a preincarnate appearance of Jesus himself.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: But two of those are angels.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: Now the text says that Abraham saw three men, and in typical Middle Eastern hospitality, he invited them in to have a bite to eat and something to drink.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: And they didn't appear to him to be angels at first.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I think overall, what that tells us is by and large, angels look like people, and they're about the same size.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, again, forgive me for referring to John Travolta, but it's not a case of having to stuff huge wings underneath your t-shirt because probably there are not huge wings.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: And let's remember that a lot of the description of what angels do and that sort of thing, they move around quickly.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, in a biblical context, what's the best way of sort of describing a being that can move around quickly?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you say, man, he just flies all over the place.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, he may not have wings, but he flies all over the place.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: And in the biblical context, you say, well, the best way to fly is to have wings because that's how birds fly.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, that kind of all fits together.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: But in terms of the actual appearance, pretty much like us.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_03: Pretty much like human beings.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_03: So not necessarily clothed with white clothing, not necessarily with a halo around their head, but that one text, entertaining angels unaware.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: I forgot about the halo.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: You're right.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there doesn't seem to be a halo either.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, how about a time when Jesus interacts with angels?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_03: He does in several places.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_03: Where and why?
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: There are two that come to mind in particular.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think they're very dramatic and they're very striking, and they certainly demand further attention, maybe, that we would give than we have right now.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: But there are two different periods of time in the life of Jesus.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: The first one is early when Jesus is about to embark on his public ministry.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: We know, of course, of his baptism by his cousin John in the Jordan River.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then the gospel account tells us that after the baptism of Jesus by John in the Jordan, he went into the wilderness, the Judean wilderness.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: And my wife and I have had the privilege, or at least the experience, of spending time in the Judean wilderness, and it is a pretty desolate place.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: And Jesus was there for 40 days and 40 nights, and there the devil appeared to him, one of the fallen angels, one of the fallen archangels, the highest caliber of fallen archangels, and the devil appears to Jesus to tempt him.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: There's a series of temptations, and we read about those, of course, three of them in particular.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: But after Jesus is tempted in three different ways by the devil, Jesus responds by quoting scripture, which is very interesting.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then we read in Matthew chapter 4, verse 11 then the devil leaveth him after he is tempted, Jesus, those three times.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: And behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: So you have the account of angels, which is quite remarkable, angels actually coming to minister in some way to Jesus.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: Now, that of course was at the very beginning of his public ministry.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: Then at the end of his public ministry, and actually we're talking about the agony of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, where he was betrayed, where he was arrested, leading to his death on the cross for our sins the next day.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: Luke puts it this way in 22.43, Luke 22.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: In the Garden of Gethsemane, where Jesus was agonizing and where he prayed, Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me, nevertheless, not my will but thine be done.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: And the gospel account tells us that he was in such agony that he was sweating drops of blood, or at least sweating huge drops that looked like drops of blood.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: And in Luke 22, 43, we read, And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that was in the Garden of Gethsemane.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: So those are two times when angels ministered to Jesus.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: And certainly there could have been others as well, but these are two very dramatic times, I believe.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_03: Would you consider those to be guardian angel type of experiences?
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: If our definition of a guardian angel, and I think it is a correct definition, if our definition of a guardian angel is an angel, or in some cases more than one, because we understand, so for example, from that Matthew 4 passage, it's the plural.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Angels came and ministered unto him.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I think we could even talk about guardian angels in the plural.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: But if our definition is an angel or angels who are sent by God on a mission to provide specific assistance to a specific person at a specific time for a specific need, then I think we can say that these were guardian angels of Jesus, because they were sent by God the Father in heaven, recognizing that God the Son was going through a particularly agonizing and difficult time.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so those angels were sent on a mission to help him assist him in some way in a specific situation.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that meets all of the criteria, in my view, of a guardian angel.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, I think we could say those were guardian angels.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_03: Not necessarily one specifically assigned, but angel is protector and nurturer and provider, an agent of God the Father.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: And in a sense, it's sort of it it indicates.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: That that a guardian angel is not necessarily one who is with us all the time, but one who is sent uh to help us at a particular time in a particular situation.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yes, I think that's what we could say.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: There was a particular need, and those angels were sent by the Father for a particular challenge that Jesus was facing.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_03: Change the topic of discussion a little bit and let's take our minds away from the Bible and think about the way that tradition outside of the Bible has become filled with discussions about angels.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_03: And here, thinking about the way that angels have been represented in church history beyond the time of the first century, the time of the Bible.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_03: And as we think of this tradition, how do we know whether this tradition is correct or not when it comes to guardian angels?
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, my answer might appear to be overly simplistic, but I would just say this the criteria of comparing what certain extra-biblical traditions say about angels, the criteria basically are what does the Bible say about angels?
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: And anything that contradicts or does not coincide with what the biblical material tells us, we must say is wrong.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it has developed in some way, shape, or form outside of the Bible.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: But that's why the study of angels that I think uh we should be involved in is the study of biblical angelology.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: Angelology is, of course, that little branch of theology overall, general theology or systematic theology, that has to do with the study of angels.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: But we qualify it by saying it's biblical angelology.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, what does the Bible tell us about angels?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that should be our point of reference.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: That should be our reference book and any of these traditions.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Now, sometimes these traditions and material that we find outside of the Bible might very well be something that we have to say, well, that could be.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's possible.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: We don't know one way or another for sure.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: But if there is something in those traditions or that material that patently contradicts or is contradicted by the scriptures, then we have to say the Bible is the authority.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: And those things must be wrong and they must be corrected.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of a simplistic answer, but maybe it's a simplistic answer, but it's not always so easy to carry out.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: But certainly some things are speculative that have come up through church history.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_03: And so the church has gone on throughout the ages and seems to have introduced things that unfortunately has been contradictory at points or misleading.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_03: And that's a bigger conversation, I think, than what we can have right now.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe we could get back down to the point of what should a Christian do with the concept of a guardian angel?
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_03: Should a Christian ever pray to a guardian angel?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_03: Someone advocate yes within Christian tradition, someone advocate no.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_03: What's what's your perspective on that?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: I would say this that we know from the scriptures that actually there is sort of an inclination for people to give a higher position, higher honor to an angel than should be given.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: And when we think in terms of praying to an angel, possibly, that is an example, I think, of giving an angel far more honor than an angel is due.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Now, again, we have some biblical material that sort of fleshes that out.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: And one of those passages is a passage in Revelation 22, and Revelation 22, 8 and 9, John, the apostle John, in in his vision of the future, is actually kind of summing up what has been recorded in the previous 21 chapters or so of the book of Revelation.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: And this is what we read in Revelation 22, 8 and 9.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: And John himself says, and I, John, saw these things, and that's what was revealed to him, and heard them.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not, for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren, the prophets, and of them who keep the words of this book, worship God.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's profound because the angel is saying, Don't honor me.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just I'm a ministering spirit, I'm a servant.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, we look at Hebrews chapter 1, verse 14.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very important verse having to do with the whole subject of angels in general.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: What is an angel?
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, the Greek word that's translated angel in the New Testament is Angolos.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, it gives us the city name of Los Angeles and the city of angels.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: At least that's what the name says.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so the Greek word Angolos and the Hebrew word translated angel in the Old Testament is the word malach.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, both of those have the idea of being a messenger, of one who was sent.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: So an angel is one who is sent on a mission to do something.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: But Hebrews chapter 1, verse 14 actually says this of angels.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so the writer to the Hebrews, we have to remember that one of the primary purposes of the book of Hebrews, the writer to the Hebrews, is to demonstrate the superiority of Jesus to any one and any other system.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, it's clear that the writer to the Hebrews is addressing the proclivity, the tendency of some people to actually worship angels.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, the writer to Hebrews corrects that immediately by saying, Remember what the angels are.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: They are ministering spirits.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, they are spirit beings, spiritual beings, and their job is to serve, their job is to minister.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, they're messengers.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: They're, you know, the old idea of, you know, don't kill the messenger.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just carrying the message.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the angels are just messengers who are doing the mission of God.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so they should not be worshiped.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so the idea of praying to an angel, I think, carries with it the idea of, I think it's very clear that we pray to someone who is a supreme being.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: And angels are not supreme beings.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: They are ministering spirits.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: They are messengers.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that's that's a very, very questionable practice.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_03: So your response then to someone who'd be looking for interaction with a guardian angel would be, if I'm summarizing correctly, is those angels can be there, they may be there, but the focus really should not be on the ministering spirit, the angel, but on the Lord Himself.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_03: Is that fair to say?
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: That is fair to say, but I don't want to lose sight of the fact that angels still have a very important role.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think their role in our lives is a demonstration, a manifestation of how much God cares about us.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that is, there are those special situations in which God, and I don't think we can understand all the nuances of this, but I believe there are those special situations in which God does send to us this ministering spirit.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because remember that that passage in Hebrews chapter 114 says that angels are sent forth by God to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: Who are heirs of salvation?
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: Every single one who has experienced salvation, forgiveness of sins, the new birth by faith in Jesus and Him and Him alone, every person who meets that requirement is an heir of salvation.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: And the writer to the Hebrews says that angels are sent forth by God to minister to us.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so we do experience the benefit of angels, even though, and I think there are so many different anecdotes that people can give of times when they sensed that there was something that happened that defies normal explanation, natural explanation, and there had to be something else going on there.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: And in many cases, I think we can legitimately say that God, in his love and his grace and his mercy, sent an angel to minister to us, whether to encourage us when we needed special encouragement, whether to protect us when we needed special protection.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: But yes, I think in all of those situations, the one who gets the credit should not be the angel.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: It should be the Lord who has sent the angel.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, could I put it this way, the angel himself, by the way, I keep referring to it in the masculine because the Bible always refers to angels in the masculine.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: But in reality, they are neither masculine nor feminine.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: They are angels.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: But in any case, I think the angel would actually say, Don't give me honor, don't give me credit.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: Remember what the angel said to John, don't fall in front of me.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just a servant of you, the prophets, and anybody who obeys this book, worship God.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I think the angel would say to us.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, don't worship me, worship God.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe to round out our conversation today, if the focus really is on God Himself, who sends the angels to be our protector and be our guardian, perhaps you might leave us with a passage or two from the Bible that speaks about God Himself through Jesus being our protector.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, one of the places that has been a tremendous blessing to me and a help to me and to our family over the years in various situations is what, again, I referred to the epistle to the Hebrews, and it's Hebrews 13, 5 and 6.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: The writer says this, Let your manner of life be without covetousness, and be content with such things as ye have, for he has said, Who's the he here?
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's God.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: He has said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then the writer says, So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: God has promised that he will never leave us, he'll never forsake us, and so therefore we don't have to be afraid, and we have the Lord with us.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: Now, how does that work?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: That God is always with us.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: We remember, as recorded in John chapter 14, that Jesus says to his disciples that very, very shortly he was going to leave them.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: He was going to die on the cross the next day, and then 40 days after that, he was going to ascend into heaven.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: The beginning of that chapter is, Let not your heart be troubled.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Ye believe in God, believe also in me.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that wonderful passage, you know, in my father's house are many mansions.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: If it were not so, I would have told you, I go to prepare a place for you.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: And if I go to prepare a place for you, I'll come again and receive you unto myself.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: But later in that chapter, John chapter 14, verse 16, Jesus says, I will send to you another comforter, another comforter.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: And we know that that comforter that Jesus is referring to is none other than the Holy Spirit.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting that that word translated comforter is the Greek word a parakletos, parakletos.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we anglicize it into the paraclete, but literally it means someone who is called alongside of one to help him, to guide him, to protect him, and to be with him.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: So Jesus says, When I go away, you will not be without me, but rather I'm going to send another one, and that is the third person of the Trinity, God the Holy Spirit, and he's going to be with you all the time.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: He's going to be your paraclete, your paracletos, because he's going to be with you all the time.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: So when God says, I'll never leave you or forsake you, and we can therefore say, I won't fear anything, that means because we have the Holy Spirit who's with us all the time.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: The Apostle Paul, of course, makes it very clear in Romans chapter 8, verse 9 that every single person who is a child of God by faith in Jesus has the Holy Spirit living within him.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: Therefore, he has God with him all the time.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, there's some special times when maybe God will send another person, and that would be an angel.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: But the fact is that he's with us all the time.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: And could I perhaps maybe just wrap it up in this way?
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: Romans 8, 35 through 39, Paul says, What shall separate us from the love of Christ shall tribulation or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or pearl or sword?
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, all those things that are frightening.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: He says, As it is written, for thy sake, we're killed all the day long, we're accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: For I'm persuaded, Paul says, that neither death nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, angels, that is bad angels, demons, principalities, powers, things present, things to come, height, depth, any other creature shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to add one other thing, and that is John 15, 15.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus said to his followers, and we are his followers.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: At least I hope everyone hearing this podcast is a follower of Jesus.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus said to his followers, henceforth I call you not servants, for the servant knoweth not what his Lord doeth, but I have called you friends.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: For all things that I've heard of my Father, I've made known unto you.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus is our friend.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: Therefore, we don't have to be afraid.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: And remember, Proverbs 18, 24 says, A man who has friends must show himself friendly, and there is a friend who sticketh closer than a brother.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that friend is Jesus.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: And by the Spirit of Jesus, the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, we have someone with us all the time.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes we're even blessed to have special help from one of those ministering spirits, the angels.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's a very good way to conclude this conversation.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you so much for a very stimulating discussion about a very pertinent topic today.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_03: And thank you, Reverend Roger Womold, for giving us your time today.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, my privilege.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: God bless you.