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Rerelease: When Faith Breaks Trust: A Sacred Story - Part One with Hannah May · Echoes & Edges

0:08
Speaker 1: Hi, welcome back to Echoes and Edges, the Broken and
0:11
Speaker 1: Beautiful podcast. I'm Patria, your host for Echoes and Edges
0:16
Speaker 1: and the founder of the Broken and Beautiful Collective. Before
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Speaker 1: we dive into any introductions or content, I need to
0:23
Speaker 1: let you know that this episode touches on themes of grooming,
0:27
Speaker 1: abuse of power, and spiritual harm. We won't share details
0:31
Speaker 1: that overwhelm the nervous system or re-traumatize listeners, but we
0:35
Speaker 1: will speak plainly about patterns of manipulation, silence, and institutional avoidance.
0:41
Speaker 1: If you need to pause, breathe, or return later, please
0:45
Speaker 1: honor that. So today we're opening a sacred story that
0:50
Speaker 1: was held alone in isolation for a long time. And
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Speaker 1: I'm honored to be delighted by the holder of this story,
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Speaker 1: Hannah Mae. Hannah is the founder of Sacred Story Space,
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Speaker 1: where she offers NFTC-certified story coaching. She creates safe, intentional
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Speaker 1: spaces for people to explore their past, reclaim their voice,
1:13
Speaker 1: and live more fully into who they were designed to be.
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Speaker 1: She brings over 25 years of experience as a business owner, coach,
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Speaker 1: and church lay leader, and is certified in narrative-focused trauma
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Speaker 1: care through the Allender Center. Hannah is also a member
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Speaker 1: of the Broken and Beautiful Remote Collective, and she believes
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Speaker 1: every person is made in the image of God and
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Speaker 1: that when truth is held with love and kindness, it
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Speaker 1: brings liberation. I'm so grateful to have you with us today.
1:45
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. And I'm just so honored to
1:46
Speaker 2: be here with you today to share this space and
1:49
Speaker 2: be available for our listeners.
1:52
Speaker 1: It's honoring to have you here. Thank you so much.
1:55
Speaker 1: So before we dive into more particulars around questions, would
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Speaker 1: you be willing to give context, share a little bit
2:03
Speaker 1: of the story of what we're going to be talking
2:05
Speaker 1: about in a way that feels kind to you, honoring
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Speaker 1: to the story and listeners and yourself?
2:11
Speaker 2: Sounds good.
2:11
Speaker 1: Yes.
2:12
Speaker 2: So this is a story from when I was about
2:14
Speaker 2: 17 years old. I was really active in my music
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Speaker 2: ministry at church. It was kind of what I was
2:21
Speaker 2: known for. That was my happy place. We got a
2:27
Speaker 2: new music minister there at church. I thought he was fabulous.
2:32
Speaker 2: He was single and dynamic, and he was doing cutting-edge
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Speaker 2: work in the music industry and had already trained all
2:40
Speaker 2: around the world and was planning to do worship leading
2:43
Speaker 2: and training all over the world. And so I was
2:46
Speaker 2: just enamored and he was hot. And so I found
2:50
Speaker 2: myself flirting with him and eventually in a relationship, a
2:54
Speaker 2: secret relationship, and then just in heartbreak and turmoil with
3:00
Speaker 2: the church. So really impacted my relationship with God and
3:05
Speaker 2: my relationship with the church for a long time.
3:09
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for the courage, I'm thinking of
3:13
Speaker 1: the iterations of opening and, and revealing you're even today
3:19
Speaker 1: describing with some awareness, like there's just the sense of
3:23
Speaker 1: a young girl here, you know, like very enamored, taken with, um,
3:31
Speaker 1: wanting something of this person, you know, like he, he
3:35
Speaker 1: was obviously he was dynamic and charismatic and dynamic. Yeah. Yeah.
3:44
Speaker 1: And that drew you.
3:45
Speaker 2: And so.
3:48
Speaker 1: Talk to us a little bit about how you've come
3:50
Speaker 1: to understand in that moment, even as you were describing the,
3:55
Speaker 1: the relational experience, just seeing him meeting him for the
3:59
Speaker 1: first time. And then also as you've come to understand
4:02
Speaker 1: the setup for vulnerability, what, what made you vulnerable in
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Speaker 1: this particular circumstance?
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Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh my goodness, Patria, so much. One piece was
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Speaker 2: I loved music. I loved being involved in the music
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Speaker 2: and the worship. And it was the first time that
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Speaker 2: I got a glimpse of what my future could hold.
4:20
Speaker 2: And so that was really a driving force behind a
4:25
Speaker 2: lot of my courage and the risks that I took
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Speaker 2: was I was like, oh my goodness, I could actually
4:32
Speaker 2: live into my dreams. And so, of course, totally unaware
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Speaker 2: of Just so naive because the system that I had
4:38
Speaker 2: been raised in was in fact 100% set me up
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Speaker 2: to become the perfect victim for this particular minister. I
4:54
Speaker 2: think what's helpful to look at or to hear about
4:56
Speaker 2: are the different lenses through which I experienced my story
5:02
Speaker 2: and the lenses of systems. And so I had my
5:04
Speaker 2: church systems. I had my family system and then there
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Speaker 2: was the school system and they each played a very
5:11
Speaker 2: big piece role in how I became the girl that
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Speaker 2: was able to fall for a man twice her age
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Speaker 2: in a secret relationship that no one knew about. Um,
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Speaker 2: it's just, I was, there was no way that wasn't
5:26
Speaker 2: going to be an option to have happen for me.
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Speaker 2: So I'll share just a little bit about those different systems.
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Speaker 2: And I'll start with the church system because that's a
5:35
Speaker 2: really important one. They're all really important. And we're all
5:39
Speaker 2: raised with different systems and they impact. So I was
5:42
Speaker 2: raised in a family that was deeply involved in the
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Speaker 2: shepherding or the discipleship movement of like the 60s to
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Speaker 2: the 80s. Very charismatic movement, but it was marked by rigid,
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Speaker 2: top-down authority, 100% patriarchal structure, and demands for unquestioned submission.
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Speaker 2: I can hear God better for you than you can
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Speaker 2: for yourself.
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Speaker 1: Hmm.
6:03
Speaker 2: Members were expected to have a major life decisions covered
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Speaker 2: by a house group or a cell leader, small group
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Speaker 2: leaders or what we would know them now, an elder
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Speaker 2: or pastor. Like I'm talking about the choices as far
6:15
Speaker 2: as where we live, where we work, who we marry,
6:18
Speaker 2: and even whether to see a doctor. Complete control. Total,
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Speaker 2: complete control. And especially for the women. Like women were
6:27
Speaker 2: expected to get married immediately. and have children. That was
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Speaker 2: the holy grail of how you determine your value and
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Speaker 2: your worth was determined. And so obviously along in that
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Speaker 2: was your purity and your purity was what you had
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Speaker 2: to offer. That was your golden diamond gift that you
6:47
Speaker 2: could offer someone. And without that, you had no value.
6:50
Speaker 2: You had no worth. So like you, you had to
6:52
Speaker 2: protect that at all costs. So then you have my
6:56
Speaker 2: family of origin systems. And this was also a totalitarian
7:01
Speaker 2: control environment. The difference was that my parents actually co-parented, co-led.
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Speaker 2: They were 100% in sync with each other on how
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Speaker 2: they were raising us. And yet my dad was the
7:14
Speaker 2: ultimate authority, right? So they were equal and yet a
7:18
Speaker 2: very twisted form of complementarianism. So not allowed to question anything,
7:23
Speaker 2: not allowed to think for myself. Curiosity is not welcomed.
7:27
Speaker 2: your value as a woman is to get married and
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Speaker 2: bear children. And so the grooming part of the training
7:34
Speaker 2: for me is that in my home, I was like,
7:38
Speaker 2: I was trained to be attuned to other people, whoever
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Speaker 2: was like the parent, the elder, whoever the most important
7:45
Speaker 2: person in the room was my job. And this was
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Speaker 2: explicitly taught to me was that I was to meet
7:52
Speaker 2: their needs without them ever having to say a word.
7:56
Speaker 2: If they had to ask me for something, if they
7:58
Speaker 2: had to clue me in to what they wanted or needed,
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Speaker 2: then I had failed. And so you're talking about a
8:04
Speaker 2: little girl who's like not even 10 yet. So I'm
8:09
Speaker 2: going to be obedient. I am obedient. I am compliant.
8:12
Speaker 2: I am not pushing back. I want them to be happy.
8:16
Speaker 2: And fleshing that out a little bit more because this
8:18
Speaker 2: has really broad reaching impact and affect for me and
8:21
Speaker 2: for others who have similar situations. I was being verbally, physically, psychologically,
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Speaker 2: and sexually abused on the reg. And so I had
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Speaker 2: to really just block out most of the things that
8:34
Speaker 2: were happening in order to survive. And by the time
8:36
Speaker 2: I graduated high school, when all this was coming to
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Speaker 2: a head with the music minister, I really only remembered
8:43
Speaker 2: some verbal and physical abuse and a couple of weird
8:46
Speaker 2: sexually inappropriate situations with some men in my family. But
8:50
Speaker 2: other than that, it really was like, oh, it's not
8:54
Speaker 2: a good life. I don't like being at home, but
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Speaker 2: it's okay, I guess, you know? And so.
9:02
Speaker 1: Let's just pause there for a minute because you just
9:05
Speaker 1: threw down a lot of information.
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Speaker 2: I probably did.
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Speaker 1: Well, and it's not too much information, but it is
9:14
Speaker 1: a lot of information that I know you have worked
9:19
Speaker 1: and curated over decades. Decades. to remember, to recall, to
9:25
Speaker 1: be able to make sense of. You've had good, loving
9:29
Speaker 1: help continue to, most of us do, with stories of trauma.
9:35
Speaker 1: I want to just make a couple of points about
9:37
Speaker 1: what you've already said. And one is that in a
9:42
Speaker 1: very personal way, an explicit way, your dreams were exploited
9:52
Speaker 1: so early. So your dreams of being um, maybe, maybe
9:58
Speaker 1: a little girl doesn't dream of being obedient per se,
10:01
Speaker 1: but she wants to be loved, right? A little girl
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Speaker 1: wants to be loved and a little girl who's on
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Speaker 1: the regular being abused in all these different ways is
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Speaker 1: going to need to work extra hard at finding ways
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Speaker 1: to be loved. And here you had a step one, two,
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Speaker 1: and three of how to do it, which is make
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Speaker 1: sure everyone is pleased with you by paying attention to
10:27
Speaker 1: what they need. Right? And you also talked about dreams.
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Speaker 1: In the middle of all of this, somehow you stayed
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Speaker 1: connected to a part of you that longed for something.
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Speaker 2: Yes, I think that really provided me hope and vision
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Speaker 2: for the future. It was like a lifeline for me
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Speaker 2: that there could be something different. There could be something
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Speaker 2: beautiful to look forward to.
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Speaker 1: Oh, my goodness. Okay, so without any more context, you know,
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Speaker 1: we could immediately segue to then you're 17. But there's
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Speaker 1: more that is included in the setup. So yes, so
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Speaker 1: let's move forward then with the next part of school.
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Speaker 1: So tell us more about how school set you up
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Speaker 1: for vulnerability.
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Speaker 2: And I think it'd be helpful to also just add in,
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Speaker 2: I had made note of this, and I think it's
11:25
Speaker 2: important to share is, I was very much having to
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Speaker 2: live a double life. I lived a life as a
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Speaker 2: Christian teen, a Christian girl in Christian schools, a really
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Speaker 2: good girl. But then I come home and once that
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Speaker 2: door closes, it's a completely different world. And so without
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Speaker 2: even realizing it, I began to like be really skilled
11:50
Speaker 2: at living a double life. And I think mine is
11:53
Speaker 2: a really like very black and white example of how
11:56
Speaker 2: that can happen. But I think so many of us
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Speaker 2: live double lives with, you know, with our families of origin.
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Speaker 2: It's like we're expected to be one way in the world.
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Speaker 2: And then when we come home, it's a very different environment.
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Speaker 2: And we're not allowed to speak about that when we're
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Speaker 2: out in the world. And so that can really play
12:14
Speaker 2: into how we get set up for these situations. Because
12:18
Speaker 2: we're already accustomed to secrets. We're already accustomed to hiding things.
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Speaker 2: And so it doesn't feel unnatural to do that. You
12:26
Speaker 2: don't have the same level of questioning yourself like, oh,
12:29
Speaker 2: I shouldn't be doing this. Because it's not a conscious thing.
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Speaker 2: It's a subconscious.
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Speaker 1: For sure. And so I think you're saying two things.
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Speaker 1: that there's something about when the door closed at home
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Speaker 1: that felt not like you were a good girl. Like
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Speaker 1: there was, there was something shifted when the door closed
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Speaker 1: and out there you could be a good girl, but
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Speaker 1: here inside home, you did not, you couldn't be a
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Speaker 1: good girl.
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Speaker 2: No, I mean, there was no way what I was
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Speaker 2: being asked to do. Well, not even asked. Right. So without,
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Speaker 2: by then I had been groomed so long by my
13:15
Speaker 2: own family. So it was like, really, I had to
13:18
Speaker 2: shut that part of myself off because I wanted to
13:20
Speaker 2: be alive. I wanted to feel good. I wanted to
13:23
Speaker 2: feel like I was a normal teenage girl with a
13:26
Speaker 2: normal teenage life. And at home that that was just,
13:32
Speaker 2: that was not welcome. I had to become someone else
13:36
Speaker 2: to stay alive within my own home in the system.
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Speaker 3: Yeah.
13:39
Speaker 1: And can we just underscore what, you know, what you
13:43
Speaker 1: said there? I wanted to be alive. I wanted to
13:48
Speaker 1: be alive. Listeners, if you ever don't understand how abuse happens,
13:58
Speaker 1: listen to that sentence because abuse is always about power dynamics.
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Speaker 1: Wanting to be alive makes you vulnerable. regardless of circumstances
14:11
Speaker 1: and if the circumstances are unkind or harmful they will
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Speaker 1: take advantage of that desire because it's written all over
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Speaker 1: your face as a nine-year-old it's i mean little nine-year-old
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Speaker 1: girls want to be alive.
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Speaker 2: That's right that's right they do they want to be
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Speaker 2: delighted they want to be seen they want to be
14:32
Speaker 2: like oh you're amazing so yeah we will We will
14:37
Speaker 2: do what we have to do to get what we can.
14:47
Speaker 2: Just to mention about my school system, because I think
14:49
Speaker 2: that really is a key factor in my story. So
14:54
Speaker 2: I initially started school in first grade, a little Baptist
14:59
Speaker 2: private school that all of our church kids went to.
15:02
Speaker 2: They didn't have a school for us yet. So they
15:05
Speaker 2: sent us to this little Baptist private school. And it
15:09
Speaker 2: was so sweet. It was like the first time in
15:12
Speaker 2: my life that I was being seen and I was
15:14
Speaker 2: like touted as being smart and capable and talented. And
15:18
Speaker 2: I felt so good when I went to school and
15:21
Speaker 2: went to chapel and I'm learning about the Bible and
15:23
Speaker 2: I'm learning Bible verses. I fell in love with flannel graphs,
15:27
Speaker 2: made my mom get them so I can have them
15:29
Speaker 2: at home. And so I loved school. I felt safe there.
15:32
Speaker 2: I felt seen and celebrated. And I heard other children
15:35
Speaker 2: sharing their testimonies. And I came home and asked my mom, hey,
15:40
Speaker 2: have I been saved? And she said, oh, yeah, when
15:43
Speaker 2: you're like three. And that just didn't sit well with
15:46
Speaker 2: me as like a six-year-old, seven-year-old. And so I'll never forget.
15:51
Speaker 2: It just really compelled me. I went into my dad's
15:54
Speaker 2: office and I knelt down next to the bed that
15:57
Speaker 2: was in his office. And I said to God, I
16:01
Speaker 2: want to remember when I asked you into my heart,
16:05
Speaker 2: when I asked you to be Jesus to me, I
16:09
Speaker 2: don't remember. And so I want to remember. And to
16:12
Speaker 2: this day, I still remember the feel of the bedspread
16:15
Speaker 2: underneath my elbows and my knees on the floor. And
16:18
Speaker 2: I believe in that moment I was saved. And I
16:20
Speaker 2: believe that that started a trajectory of my relationship with God.
16:26
Speaker 2: That is beautiful. And it's been very complex. but I
16:30
Speaker 2: really believe it saved my life. And so then, and
16:33
Speaker 2: when I entered the fifth grade, they, the church had
16:35
Speaker 2: decided no more, no more outside schooling. We're going to
16:39
Speaker 2: take care of, we're going to do this all ourselves.
16:42
Speaker 2: And so we had teachers who weren't even accredited. You know, they,
16:45
Speaker 2: they didn't have college degrees. They weren't accredited. I mean,
16:48
Speaker 2: they were really, it was again, just all about the control.
16:51
Speaker 2: And so I was no longer in a place where
16:55
Speaker 2: I was celebrated or seen or loved. And so school
16:58
Speaker 2: just became something to get through. And so the school
17:02
Speaker 2: system again played such a role because it was part
17:04
Speaker 2: of my salvation initially. And then part of the programming
17:08
Speaker 2: and the control again of not being able to get out.
17:12
Speaker 2: And some of us as teenagers just naturally started pushing
17:15
Speaker 2: back against the system. And so there was normal teenage rebellion.
17:21
Speaker 2: And then there was also this need to stay under
17:24
Speaker 2: the radar to fit with the system. And so it
17:29
Speaker 2: led to a lot of confusion and complexity, but those
17:32
Speaker 2: three systems really set me up to have, to absolutely
17:37
Speaker 2: be the perfect victim for the music minister when that
17:41
Speaker 2: time came. And it also gave me the faith that
17:46
Speaker 2: I've had that has allowed me to know who God
17:50
Speaker 2: is outside of who God, people who call themselves Christians are.
17:56
Speaker 2: And that has been a really key thing for me,
17:58
Speaker 2: is to have that thread of truth going through my
18:02
Speaker 2: life that I have been able to come back to
18:06
Speaker 2: even through all of the complexity of my rage and
18:09
Speaker 2: anger and confusion with God towards God.
18:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's something about the embodiment of the little girl.
18:18
Speaker 1: The descriptions are very mental, you know, these are, these
18:23
Speaker 1: are mental images, things that are created. But when you
18:26
Speaker 1: talked about your elbows on the bedspread, there's an embodiment,
18:30
Speaker 1: it feels like there was something that aligned and you
18:35
Speaker 1: said the word saved. And I understand in the context
18:38
Speaker 1: of Christianity, what we mean by that is, is salvation.
18:42
Speaker 1: And also, What I heard when you said that, and
18:47
Speaker 1: you even clarified a couple sentences later, like it saved
18:51
Speaker 1: my life. And I can't tell you how many times
18:56
Speaker 1: I hear the story of victims of early sexual harm,
19:00
Speaker 1: especially women. And it's anecdotal. I don't know why it is.
19:05
Speaker 1: It's true of myself as well, that there's something about Jesus.
19:13
Speaker 1: There's something real that happens with this person, you know,
19:23
Speaker 1: entity that feels inside of us but bigger than us,
19:27
Speaker 1: you know. And once I had someone whisper to me,
19:32
Speaker 1: I've heard Jesus talk to me since I was a
19:35
Speaker 1: little girl, is, am I normal? And I said, well,
19:40
Speaker 1: I mean, what's normal? I don't know how to answer
19:42
Speaker 1: that question. But I will say it makes good sense.
19:46
Speaker 1: And I'm so grateful that you did, because it is literal. salvation.
19:52
Speaker 1: It saves sanity. And there's something in, like you said,
19:57
Speaker 1: that thread of truth, which is the way that I
19:59
Speaker 1: was hearing that connection that happened.
20:02
Speaker 2: Yeah.
20:03
Speaker 1: And you're six or seven years old. I mean, you're
20:06
Speaker 1: just a little girl. So tiny. So tiny six or
20:11
Speaker 1: seven year olds sometimes still have pudge on their knuckles.
20:14
Speaker 2: It's true.
20:14
Speaker 1: I always think of hands, you know, that the hands
20:17
Speaker 1: of a six or seven year old are so tiny
20:20
Speaker 1: and the hands of a three year old, even tinier,
20:23
Speaker 1: still very babyish. So yes.
20:31
Speaker 2: So tell us a little bit.
20:33
Speaker 1: I think the implication is really clear, but tell us
20:36
Speaker 1: a little bit about what you were taught about questioning leaders.
20:40
Speaker 2: Yeah. So what I was taught was you don't like
20:44
Speaker 2: you absolutely accept what is said. You don't think for yourself.
20:49
Speaker 2: If your thoughts are different, you're wrong. You will listen
20:54
Speaker 2: to us and you will do as we say. It's
20:58
Speaker 2: just that simple. And so I, That is an act
21:03
Speaker 2: of rebellion that I've had to take a holy one
21:05
Speaker 2: of allowing myself to be curious and ask questions, even
21:10
Speaker 2: when I'm afraid that it's going to annoy people. Like
21:13
Speaker 2: to give myself permission to be curious and to ask questions,
21:17
Speaker 2: to reclaim that part of my God-given image of being
21:23
Speaker 2: like all of us are supposed to be able to
21:25
Speaker 2: be curious and have safe spaces where we can be
21:27
Speaker 2: curious about everything. As a child, like it's so important.
21:33
Speaker 2: So anyway, that's probably just a little side soapbox. But yeah,
21:38
Speaker 2: curiosity matters and ability to be curious. And I would
21:42
Speaker 2: say to everyone listening, if you don't have spaces where
21:45
Speaker 2: you can be curious and ask really tough questions, may
21:49
Speaker 2: I bless you to find new spaces. Like life is
21:52
Speaker 2: too short. Find spaces where you can be curious and
21:56
Speaker 2: you can ask the hard questions. of God, of others,
21:59
Speaker 2: of your belief systems, you are fearfully and wonderfully made.
22:03
Speaker 2: You have been given a heart and a mind, the
22:08
Speaker 2: mind of Christ. If you are saved, then you have
22:10
Speaker 2: the mind of Christ. The spirit is within you. And
22:13
Speaker 2: you have the capacity to gain wisdom and insight and
22:17
Speaker 2: knowledge and education. And you deserve that.
22:21
Speaker 1: Right now, when you think about these experiences, these early
22:25
Speaker 1: formative experiences, And then we opened with the context of
22:30
Speaker 1: the story that we're really talking about today. We're not
22:34
Speaker 1: talking directly about details, but we're unpacking the story a
22:38
Speaker 1: little bit. Just a reminder that you're 17 in this story.
22:44
Speaker 1: You have a 35-year-old, hot, charismatic, really experienced is the
22:52
Speaker 1: word that comes to my mind, man, grown man. 35
22:57
Speaker 1: year old man come in and start leading worship for
23:02
Speaker 1: the youth.
23:03
Speaker 2: Yep.
23:04
Speaker 3: Yep.
23:06
Speaker 1: And, and this was something you enjoyed doing anyway. It
23:08
Speaker 1: sounds like music leadership.
23:11
Speaker 2: Yes. Yes. It was, it was really my great joy.
23:16
Speaker 2: And it was actually my friends who said, Hey, you
23:19
Speaker 2: have a good voice. You should join the, the music team.
23:22
Speaker 2: And we, in the summertime we would put on, people
23:26
Speaker 2: would write plays, musicals, and then we would perform them
23:29
Speaker 2: and we would go to other churches or down to
23:31
Speaker 2: Mexico and perform just in a very small time, like
23:36
Speaker 2: nothing fancy. But I even went on to like do
23:40
Speaker 2: other things with the music. And so it was very
23:43
Speaker 2: important to me. It was a happy place for me.
23:45
Speaker 2: It was a place where I felt centered and grounded
23:48
Speaker 2: and seen and celebrated again. Like we're looking for those places, right?
23:52
Speaker 2: Where people affirm us and call out our beauty and
23:55
Speaker 2: our giftedness. And that's actually something we need. That's not
24:00
Speaker 2: a want. That's something that we all actually need. And
24:04
Speaker 2: so when we find those spaces, especially given my context
24:08
Speaker 2: or context is similar, we are going to be vulnerable
24:12
Speaker 2: to people who are going to prey on that. It's
24:14
Speaker 2: just all too real.
24:16
Speaker 1: True. But at the same time, this was a hyper-controlled
24:21
Speaker 1: situation where The idea was that like the implication of
24:27
Speaker 1: this type of control is this is where safety is.
24:31
Speaker 1: That's the idea of it. We're not going to let
24:34
Speaker 1: you go out there to the world and be impacted
24:38
Speaker 1: by the world because it's not safe out there. And
24:41
Speaker 1: in here, it's safe. And so that's the implication under
24:46
Speaker 1: which you're living. And I'm sure you've been told that
24:49
Speaker 1: a million times if you've been told it once, like
24:51
Speaker 1: this is where safety is, right? So here, here, here
24:54
Speaker 1: comes this guy, right?
24:56
Speaker 3: Right.
24:58
Speaker 1: And he, so what helped you like, because you are
25:03
Speaker 1: interwoven into the system. And so what helped you recognize, um,
25:09
Speaker 1: either then or much later that what happened wasn't you
25:14
Speaker 1: having a crush on an older guy. It was not mentorship.
25:20
Speaker 1: You know, this was grooming.
25:22
Speaker 2: It was, and Patria, it took me so, so decades.
25:27
Speaker 2: I was 50 before I shared this story in my
25:34
Speaker 2: first NFTC group, NFTC One. And it was one of
25:38
Speaker 2: the stories that I engaged that first year. And I
25:41
Speaker 2: felt so much shame because even then I felt complicit.
25:47
Speaker 2: I thought that I had pursued him. that I had initiated,
25:51
Speaker 2: that I kept pursuing him. And so I really did
25:57
Speaker 2: not see the distinction that I was a child and
26:03
Speaker 2: he was a man. And when I first flirted with him,
26:07
Speaker 2: we were down in Mexico doing this big youth event.
26:12
Speaker 2: And he and another pastor were sharing a hotel room
26:15
Speaker 2: and they let us have access to the hotel room.
26:18
Speaker 2: And I had took my red lipstick and I wrote
26:20
Speaker 2: flirty stuff all over the mirror. And so that's how
26:24
Speaker 2: I remember it starting. Right. And he was always very
26:27
Speaker 2: aloof and he was never affirming to me. And he
26:32
Speaker 2: never said anything in the whole time that led me
26:36
Speaker 2: to believe that he really cared about me, that he
26:39
Speaker 2: wanted me around, but he kept letting me come back
26:42
Speaker 2: and things kept moving further and further along the lines physically.
26:47
Speaker 2: And so this was over the course of a year.
26:49
Speaker 2: And just his brilliance of reading me, of knowing how
26:55
Speaker 2: to manipulate me so skillfully. It was not until I
26:59
Speaker 2: was 50 and I started doing story work. So yes,
27:02
Speaker 2: this is a shameless plug for story work. Like it
27:06
Speaker 2: took a skilled facilitator and those other women in my
27:11
Speaker 2: group of like, Oh, so kindly, gently continuing to push
27:17
Speaker 2: and ask questions. And it was so hard for me
27:21
Speaker 2: to swallow that it was abuse. But I started to see,
27:25
Speaker 2: I mean, I knew it, right? I knew that it
27:27
Speaker 2: wasn't right. But I felt so much shame. I still
27:32
Speaker 2: remember what I was wearing the day that I went
27:34
Speaker 2: to his house and things went over the line into intercourse.
27:38
Speaker 2: And I remember how I felt when I left his house,
27:40
Speaker 2: the shame that I carried with me. And so it
27:44
Speaker 2: took a lot of love to get through that shame
27:47
Speaker 2: to make a safe enough space where I could sit
27:51
Speaker 2: with that 17-year-old part of me and begin to see
27:57
Speaker 2: what she had really experienced.
28:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much for the emotion on your face.
28:05
Speaker 1: And I feel that with you. And I'm thinking.
28:10
Speaker 1: About just the realities.
28:13
Speaker 3: Of thinking about the good girl outside there and then
28:21
Speaker 3: you didn't call her the bad girl inside.
28:23
Speaker 1: But there's that implication of ownership, of whatever that was
28:29
Speaker 1: that happened in there, it was on you. And so
28:34
Speaker 1: you came into this relationship you know, I'm not, I'm,
28:37
Speaker 1: that's not what it was, but that's how you thought
28:40
Speaker 1: of it.
28:40
Speaker 2: That's what I thought. Yeah.
28:42
Speaker 1: So you thought as, okay, I have lost my way
28:45
Speaker 1: here at the door close. I'm in the inside. I'm
28:47
Speaker 1: not being the good girl here. And yet, you know,
28:51
Speaker 1: let's just pause for a second and, and not assume
28:55
Speaker 1: understanding for listeners in terms of, again, power dynamics and
29:00
Speaker 1: how a 17 year old young woman certainly has developed, uh,
29:06
Speaker 1: often most of the time physically there's a physical maturity.
29:09
Speaker 1: There's oftentimes in a psychological maturity, you know, there's a
29:14
Speaker 1: way to communicate that can be really fun and flirty, right? We,
29:18
Speaker 1: we know this, right? That, that can be very, very true.
29:21
Speaker 1: And by flirty, we just mean, um, engaged, delightful, um,
29:27
Speaker 1: a lot engaging alive. Exactly. You know, wanting to be pursued.
29:34
Speaker 1: And there's just this, something really precious about that description
29:41
Speaker 1: of 17 year old you that I want to really
29:43
Speaker 1: hold onto in our hearts. And I want to invite
29:45
Speaker 1: listeners to really hold that seven, the 17 year old
29:49
Speaker 1: Hannah was just alive and somehow by the grace of
29:55
Speaker 1: God through her elbows on that little, yeah, bedspread. Yeah.
30:02
Speaker 1: You know, here she is alive. And, and, and this
30:06
Speaker 1: 35 year old man who played the game of aloofness,
30:14
Speaker 1: like he, like you said, and so you talked about
30:17
Speaker 1: the brilliance of grooming, but I want to say that's
30:20
Speaker 1: the piece right there that captured your heart, right? Because
30:26
Speaker 1: you're a woman of great passion. You were a 17-year-old girl,
30:30
Speaker 1: young woman of great passion, and something to move toward
30:34
Speaker 1: is going to draw you. And so that aloofness.
30:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the fact that you've been taught your whole
30:42
Speaker 2: life that to be married. Yeah, exactly. And who you
30:47
Speaker 2: marry determines your status and your standing. And so here's
30:52
Speaker 2: a man who's a worship leader. He's going to travel
30:55
Speaker 2: all over the world teaching people worship. What's more holy
30:58
Speaker 2: than that? So like, oh my goodness, I get to
31:01
Speaker 2: have this holy life with this super educated man and
31:06
Speaker 2: like so talented. He was, you know, very cutting edge
31:10
Speaker 2: on the technology that he was using. People were just
31:13
Speaker 2: in awe. And so like what I love about the
31:18
Speaker 2: 17 year old part of me, and I've got her
31:20
Speaker 2: picture sitting here on the desk so I can just
31:22
Speaker 2: like have her face in front of me. Like she
31:25
Speaker 2: was a risk taker. She was like, she believed in herself.
31:31
Speaker 2: I believed in myself. There was something even in the
31:34
Speaker 2: midst of all the crazy that said, I am enough
31:39
Speaker 2: to actually have my dreams come true. I'm going to
31:41
Speaker 2: let myself pursue that. And obviously no understanding of the
31:49
Speaker 2: complete evil of the systems. of how that's all being
31:55
Speaker 2: played out, right? No, no wisdom whatsoever. So much naivety
32:01
Speaker 2: that had to be there to protect me from seeing
32:05
Speaker 2: what was really happening. But I don't know. I just
32:08
Speaker 2: think that I'm like so proud of that girl for
32:10
Speaker 2: taking a risk and like going for what she thought
32:13
Speaker 2: she wanted that was going to get her out, that
32:16
Speaker 2: was going to save her, that was going to get
32:19
Speaker 2: her a better life. And so, wow, how could you
32:22
Speaker 2: fault someone for that? Like how could you fault someone
32:25
Speaker 2: for wanting to follow their dreams, to take a risk?
32:29
Speaker 1: Why, why would we, you know, and yet that's what happened.
32:40
Speaker 1: So talk to us about the ownership of the start,
32:42
Speaker 1: like recognizing. So there was this NFTC part where there
32:47
Speaker 1: was this shift in understanding that this was actually abuse and,
32:53
Speaker 1: pretty very high level and it's it's layered because it's
32:57
Speaker 1: institutional it's authority it's all the things my goodness so
33:02
Speaker 1: what happened.
33:03
Speaker 2: Then I mean anger like so much anger and just
33:10
Speaker 2: to like share briefly because I think this will help
33:13
Speaker 2: with the context of the story so He was moving away.
33:18
Speaker 2: And so I was like, basically had gone and to
33:22
Speaker 2: tell him how much I professed my love for him
33:24
Speaker 2: and how much I wanted to be with him and
33:26
Speaker 2: how much I'll do anything like, and again, like taking
33:31
Speaker 2: this risk, really putting herself out there. And so he
33:36
Speaker 2: took it over the line to intercourse and it was
33:38
Speaker 2: very disrespectful and it was very short lived. And then
33:42
Speaker 2: he told me to get dressed and leave. And I
33:44
Speaker 2: never heard from him again. So now I've taken the risk.
33:49
Speaker 2: I've tried to follow my dream. I'm being alive. And
33:53
Speaker 2: I've just now, in my mind, made the worst decision
33:57
Speaker 2: of my life. I have failed as a woman. I
34:00
Speaker 2: have failed as a Christian. I failed my family, my community.
34:03
Speaker 2: And so the shame that I felt was so unbelievable.
34:08
Speaker 2: So maybe three months later, I went to my youth
34:11
Speaker 2: pastor and his wife, who was my voice teacher. And
34:16
Speaker 2: confess to them that I had made this horrific decision
34:19
Speaker 2: that I had done this horrible thing and how I
34:23
Speaker 2: was crying. I just said, how will God heal my heart?
34:26
Speaker 2: Really what I was asking, how can I be redeemed?
34:30
Speaker 1: Right. Because it's all your fault.
34:33
Speaker 2: It's all my fault. And I've given away, I guess
34:36
Speaker 2: the only thing that had value, like it's so insane.
34:39
Speaker 2: Like to think about that, like, of course that's not true,
34:43
Speaker 2: but that's so much of what we were taught. And
34:45
Speaker 2: so he got really angry and he said, we're going
34:49
Speaker 2: to confront this. And I said, no, no, no, I don't,
34:52
Speaker 2: I don't want to confront this. I just want, like,
34:55
Speaker 2: I don't, I don't need anybody to get in trouble.
34:56
Speaker 2: I just want to know how can God heal my heart?
35:00
Speaker 2: How can I get my heart healed? My voice teacher
35:03
Speaker 2: never said anything. He is like adamant. There's going to
35:07
Speaker 2: be a confrontation and And so I am just terrified.
35:11
Speaker 2: And he says to me, you will go home and
35:12
Speaker 2: tell your father what you did, or I will as
35:15
Speaker 2: the church. I said, oh, okay, I'll take care of that.
35:19
Speaker 2: So flash forward, there was a confrontation with the senior
35:24
Speaker 2: pastor of the church, my youth pastor, the music minister
35:29
Speaker 2: who flew in from wherever he was living then at
35:31
Speaker 2: the time, and my father, no women present. I was
35:36
Speaker 2: forced to give explicit details about And asked me, had
35:41
Speaker 2: I gone to the doctor? Could I prove that what
35:43
Speaker 2: I was saying was true? And I was so confused
35:45
Speaker 2: by this. Like, why are you asking me this? Why
35:47
Speaker 2: would I go to the doctor? You know, like, I
35:50
Speaker 2: was so confused. Now I understand they were wanting to
35:53
Speaker 2: see if I had proof that I could back up
35:56
Speaker 2: what I was saying. But who at 17 in that
35:59
Speaker 2: situation is going to have, I mean, you'd have to
36:02
Speaker 2: be a really street savvy girl. And I was not
36:04
Speaker 2: that girl. So the end result was, They called me names.
36:10
Speaker 2: They told me I was lying. Told me to get out,
36:12
Speaker 2: basically get out. He has done nothing wrong. And so
36:17
Speaker 2: what I started to realize in NFTC and the story
36:20
Speaker 2: work was that confrontation was a confrontation of me. They
36:25
Speaker 2: were confronting me. They were not confronting him. And like,
36:30
Speaker 2: you got to know that you got to know that
36:32
Speaker 2: you'd need to know the particularities of your story for
36:35
Speaker 2: them to make sense. to start to put the pieces
36:38
Speaker 2: in place. And that is part of what story work
36:41
Speaker 2: and working with a group and a skilled listener gave
36:43
Speaker 2: me is the ability to see things I could not
36:46
Speaker 2: see on my own, even as a 50-year-old woman.
36:51
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, because it was so baked in that it
36:55
Speaker 1: was your fault and that it's your job to make
36:59
Speaker 1: sure everyone's responsible. So you wouldn't have possibly had a
37:04
Speaker 1: chance to even think have a different perspective or a
37:08
Speaker 1: different lens to look at this experience through. Yeah.
37:12
Speaker 2: So I just put that story away. Like I was
37:15
Speaker 2: so ashamed. I was like, Whoa, I'm just going to
37:19
Speaker 2: put that over here. I don't even know how to
37:20
Speaker 2: categorize that other than shame. So StoryWare has been beautiful
37:24
Speaker 2: for me. And for this story, I've had it engaged
37:27
Speaker 2: for like three years on end. And then with my
37:29
Speaker 2: counselor and so much life has been given back to me.
37:35
Speaker 2: and dignity through doing the story work around this particular story.
37:40
Speaker 4: So I love what you just said there that through,
37:44
Speaker 4: through compassionate eyes, through compassionate and skilled care, you know,
37:50
Speaker 4: and curious, you know, to use your word from earlier,
37:54
Speaker 4: the importance of curiosity, like, can we be curious about this?
37:58
Speaker 2: That's right.
37:59
Speaker 1: And helping to actually sit with the shame and And
38:05
Speaker 1: one of the things I like to point out to
38:07
Speaker 1: people is that story work actually increases shame in safe
38:12
Speaker 1: ways because the shame has to be increased in order
38:16
Speaker 1: to be experienced differently. There has to be a seeing
38:21
Speaker 1: of it fully or more fully in the presence of
38:25
Speaker 1: compassionate care that is skilled and kind and can help
38:30
Speaker 1: walk you through And understand why this feels the way
38:34
Speaker 1: that it does. But here's a different lens.
38:37
Speaker 2: Right.
38:38
Speaker 1: Through which to look at this. And sometimes that takes time,
38:42
Speaker 1: you know. And there are these formative stories where there's
38:48
Speaker 1: the story with the youth pastor in his home where
38:52
Speaker 1: he assaults you. Yes. And then there's the story where
38:57
Speaker 1: the multiple tribunal kills you.
39:00
Speaker 2: I mean... you talk about impact to your relationship with
39:05
Speaker 2: the church and your relationship to God. It was not
39:10
Speaker 2: long after that, that I turned my back on God.
39:14
Speaker 2: I told him, if this is what it looks like
39:16
Speaker 2: to have your care and protection, I'm out. I don't
39:20
Speaker 2: need you. I don't want any part of you. And
39:23
Speaker 2: so there was, you know, maybe a six, nine month
39:25
Speaker 2: period where I was no longer even able to pray.
39:28
Speaker 2: I like, and I'd always, had a really strong robust
39:31
Speaker 2: relationship with the Lord and then things got really really
39:35
Speaker 2: hard and life was very very hard and I very
39:39
Speaker 2: desperately needed the Holy Spirit and I had a couple
39:45
Speaker 2: of friends who were praying for me And one night
39:49
Speaker 2: I finally broke through and was able to start to
39:51
Speaker 2: pray again. And God met me so deeply and so richly.
39:56
Speaker 2: And I was like 21, you know, and so really
40:01
Speaker 2: like wrestled with my relationship with God and morality and my, um,
40:06
Speaker 2: lifestyle all through my twenties because of everything that had happened. And, um,
40:13
Speaker 2: I think part of what I've seen is that the
40:15
Speaker 2: healthier I get, the healthier the churches are that I
40:18
Speaker 2: go to. But it has been a really painful journey
40:22
Speaker 2: in a lot of ways because I have consistently found
40:26
Speaker 2: churches to be either ill-equipped or not equipped or unwilling
40:32
Speaker 2: to handle stories of harm and abuse and trauma. And
40:38
Speaker 2: so I've kind of seen it all. I've seen churches
40:41
Speaker 2: where they tried to cast out demons from me and just,
40:46
Speaker 2: just renounce every sin and stronghold your family has ever
40:48
Speaker 2: participated in. And yet when I've tried to bring up trauma,
40:52
Speaker 2: then they were like, no, that's not possible. We were,
40:55
Speaker 2: we knew your family. That's not possible. And so like
40:58
Speaker 2: being shut down there and again, just being like, feeling
41:02
Speaker 2: like I'm being sent off into the wild with like,
41:05
Speaker 2: where's the church? Where's the church where I can be
41:09
Speaker 2: safe and trust and receive care and and see actually
41:13
Speaker 2: the hands and feet of Christ in action. And so
41:16
Speaker 2: that's just been a journey that continues to be taken.
41:21
Speaker 1: Well, you said so many important things there. One that
41:25
Speaker 1: really struck me as really well said is that the
41:30
Speaker 1: healthier I get, the healthier churches I choose. And also
41:35
Speaker 1: it's an ongoing process because the problem isn't that every
41:39
Speaker 1: person that makes up The church is intending to do
41:42
Speaker 1: these things, but the system is broken. And so we,
41:47
Speaker 1: you know, so you have these themes of everywhere you go,
41:51
Speaker 1: some iteration of blame is happening to you.
41:54
Speaker 2: Yes.
41:54
Speaker 1: Right.
41:54
Speaker 2: Yes. Yes.
41:56
Speaker 1: It's all basically, you know, you're the problem and, you know,
42:00
Speaker 1: you've got the demon and it's, it's all, it's, it's
42:03
Speaker 1: the same thing. story from history being repeated over and
42:06
Speaker 1: over and over again, not to take away from the
42:09
Speaker 1: particularity of your story at all.
42:12
Speaker 2: No, but it's good to see it from a macro
42:14
Speaker 2: level to think about it, about how it impacts all
42:17
Speaker 2: of us.
42:21
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42:29
Speaker 1: five-star review and share with a friend who might need
42:31
Speaker 1: a gentle invitation to self-understanding. Echoes and Edges is produced
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Speaker 1: Echoes and Edges is part of the VividLivid podcast network
42:45
Speaker 1: where bruises speak and healing finds its voice.