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These Books Will Change How You Think About Money · A Little Bit Richer

• 0:00
  Sean Philip: This series is bought to you by L& G, helping
• 0:02
  Sean Philip: you build a future that's a little bit richer.
• 0:06
  Iona: Hello and happy New Year. Now today we're going to
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  Iona: do something a wee bit different because we're actually going
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  Iona: to do a book club and that's because personal finance
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  Iona: starts with strengthening our mindset, our habits and our relationship
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  Iona: with money. And we found some books that will help
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  Iona: us to do just that. So we can set ourselves
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  Iona: up with good financial foundations that our future selves will
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  Iona: thank us for. And today, we're going to be exploring
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  Iona: four books, The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel, Money
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  Iona: Together by Heather and Doug Boneparth, Atomic Habits by James
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  Iona: Clear, and The Anxiety Solution by Chloe Brotheridge. We're going
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  Iona: to unpack some big ideas, some uncomfortable truths, those aha
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  Iona: moments, and the things that we're actually going to do
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  Iona: differently because of what we've read. So whether you've devoured
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  Iona: all four books, skimmed a summary, or haven't picked them
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  Iona: up yet, consider this your guided tour through the insights
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  Iona: that really matter to get your new year off to
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  Iona: a great start. And to chat through these books, I'm
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  Iona: joined by L& G's Sean Philip. Now, Sean heads up
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  Iona: a team who support workplace pension customers, providing digital tools
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  Iona: and info to encourage people to plan for their longer
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  Iona: term finances. And he's also a bit of a bookworm.
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  Iona: So we thought it'd be great to have a bit
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  Iona: of a geek out about some great books on money
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  Iona: and self- improvement. Welcome, Sean. Are you ready?
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  Sean Philip: I think so, yeah.
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  Iona: Brilliant. Well, let's get stuck in then. Your first book
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  Iona: is The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel. And if
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  Iona: you could sum up this book in one sentence, what
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  Iona: would it be?
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  Sean Philip: It's about how our mindset, our behaviors, and our psychology
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  Sean Philip: play a much bigger role in how we think about
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  Sean Philip: money and how we deal with money than financial markets
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  Sean Philip: or the economy or any kind of science or maths
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  Sean Philip: or markets.
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  Iona: And this book is an absolute phenomenon. It's been a
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  Iona: global bestseller, hasn't it? And I think lots of people
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  Iona: have been very drawn to this book because it offers
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  Iona: something a little bit different from your average finance book.
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  Iona: What makes this book such a compelling read?
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  Sean Philip: I think a lot of people, when they start thinking
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  Sean Philip: about finances and markets and the economy, they're often drawn
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  Sean Philip: into this kind of world of complicated terminology and it
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  Sean Philip: feels very much like a science, like a math subject,
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  Sean Philip: like, something really, really hard that I think most people...
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  Sean Philip: Well, not speaking for everyone, but not everyone really kind
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  Sean Philip: of enjoys those sorts of subjects. It's things that they
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  Sean Philip: probably kind of veered away from like after they left school.
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  Iona: Like me.
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  Sean Philip: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. But what Morgan Housel really does with
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  Sean Philip: the book is he really kind of illuminates the fact
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  Sean Philip: that it's about people's feelings and their psychology more than
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  Sean Philip: it is about these kind of hard sciences or numbers.
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  Sean Philip: And we're all good at that, right? So we're all
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  Sean Philip: human. We all innately kind of understand emotions and feelings.
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  Sean Philip: The book for your collection of 19 different short stories,
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  Sean Philip: it takes us on this journey about how your behaviors
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  Sean Philip: drive where you interact with money much more than numbers
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  Sean Philip: or hard facts.
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  Iona: And he uses lots of fascinating examples throughout as well.
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  Iona: And one that jumped out at me was the janitor
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  Iona: who had been investing all throughout his life very quietly
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  Iona: and just became a low- key millionaire.
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  Sean Philip: Yeah, yeah.
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  Iona: And I didn't know that story before I read the
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  Iona: book. So have you made any changes since you read
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  Iona: the book? Anything in there that really made an impression
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  Iona: on you and you thought, yeah, I'm going to use
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  Iona: that in my own life?
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  Sean Philip: Yeah. I think the way that he uses the stories is
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  Sean Philip: a really great way of bringing a lot of this
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  Sean Philip: to life. And I think the thing that I took
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  Sean Philip: from it was that there's kind of two ways that
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  Sean Philip: people get wealthy and get successful financially. One is pure
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  Sean Philip: luck really. And with six billion people on the planet,
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  Sean Philip: some people are going to be very, very lucky, but
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  Sean Philip: you can't really emulate that. And thinking that you are just
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  Sean Philip: going to be one of those lucky people that suddenly
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  Sean Philip: gets wealthy isn't really a plan. The other examples that
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  Sean Philip: he brings through is the value of being consistent and
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  Sean Philip: actually that's how you become successful. That's how you drive
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  Sean Philip: and build wealth, it's this kind of consistent habits. And
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  Sean Philip: we'll talk about habits later in one of the other
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  Sean Philip: books that we're going to read, but it's about showing
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  Sean Philip: up and making small savings, choices over a very long
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  Sean Philip: time period. Might not be the sexiest, most exciting message,
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  Sean Philip: but it's the true message about how you build wealth.
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  Iona: And he's very, very pro saving as a way to
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  Iona: give yourself choices and options further down the line. And
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  Iona: that really spoke to me.
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  Sean Philip: So one of the big things that stayed with me
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  Sean Philip: was the concept that you don't have to be saving
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  Sean Philip: for something specific. And actually, the act of saving is
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  Sean Philip: an important outcome in and of itself. Obviously, there's times
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  Sean Philip: in your life when you do want to be saving
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  Sean Philip: for something, whether it's a wedding or a holiday or
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  Sean Philip: a deposit for a house. And I think I've been
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  Sean Philip: guilty of this as well, is that you get to
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  Sean Philip: that goal and then you kind of stop and actually
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  Sean Philip: you lose all the brilliant kind of power of the
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  Sean Philip: compounding that you would otherwise get. So I think one
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  Sean Philip: of the things that the book really encourages you to do, and
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  Sean Philip: something I've taken away is, well, actually if you can,
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  Sean Philip: you really should continue to save, not necessarily for something
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  Sean Philip: specific, but just because it is in and of itself a really valuable thing
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  Sean Philip: to do.
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  Iona: It is also about establishing low expectations in terms of
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  Iona: your own lifestyle and not trying to keep up too
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  Iona: much with the Joneses. I mean, it's so simple when
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  Iona: we say it like that, but actually it's something that
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  Iona: is very easy to forget and lands lots of us
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  Iona: in trouble.
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  Sean Philip: Oh no, absolutely. He talks a lot about this concept
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  Sean Philip: of knowing when enough is enough and being really clear
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  Sean Philip: on how you understand, well, what is it that I
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  Sean Philip: actually really need to feel successful and to feel sated
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  Sean Philip: from a financial perspective? And that's really individual for everyone.
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  Sean Philip: Everyone's going to feel slightly differently about that. And I
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  Sean Philip: think that's what the book really encourages you to do
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  Sean Philip: is to see that there's lots of different voices in
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  Sean Philip: finance. And you turn the TV on, you go through
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  Sean Philip: social media and people have got lots of different opinions
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  Sean Philip: on things that they're getting out to you.
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  Iona: And they can be very certain in those opinions.
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  Sean Philip: And they can. Yes, exactly. But I think what he's quite
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  Sean Philip: clear to say is that you need to try and
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  Sean Philip: find a way to really forge your own path through
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  Sean Philip: that and understand, well, what is it that you on
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  Sean Philip: a personal level want to achieve with your finances and
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  Sean Philip: when is enough for you? And be happy with that.
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  Iona: Yeah. Run your own race, play your own game.
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  Sean Philip: Yeah, absolutely.
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  Iona: That's the thing I really took away from it most,
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  Iona: I would say.
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  Sean Philip: Yeah. And Iona, you've been reading Money Together. If you
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  Sean Philip: could sum that up in one sentence, how would you
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  Sean Philip: describe it?
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  Iona: So it's a book by a couple for couples on
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  Iona: how couples can manage their finances. So it sounds very
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  Iona: simple, but it throws up lots of fascinating and complex questions.
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  Sean Philip: Great. And what drew you to the book?
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  Iona: Well, I think it's really unusual to come across a
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  Iona: money book that's been written by a couple and a
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  Iona: couple as honest as Heather and Doug. So Doug is
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  Iona: a financial planner and he is an expert on money.
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  Iona: So he does come at this whole subject from an authoritative
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  Iona: position. But what I find really refreshing about the book is
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  Iona: that this is a couple being really honest about their
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  Iona: history, their challenges, and what they have had to learn,
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  Iona: both the easy way and the hard way along the
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  Iona: path of becoming a couple. And I feel the book
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  Iona: really explores all the complexities and nuances and frustrations and
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  Iona: difficulties, but joys as well of forging a path together
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  Iona: with someone in life, but also confronting what that means
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  Iona: for your joint finances. And the whole subject of money
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  Iona: and relationships, it can be very taboo. Couples find it
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  Iona: so hard to have these conversations with one another. So
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  Iona: I do think that anything that busts that taboo open
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  Iona: and just gets us talking more about how we can
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  Iona: manage money successfully in relationships, I feel like that is
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  Iona: just such a positive step forward and will hopefully reduce
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  Iona: the amount of conflict that people have in their relationships
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  Iona: when it comes to money, because it can be a
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  Iona: big cause of separation and divorce.
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  Sean Philip: Brilliant. I mean, I really liked how there's quite a
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  Sean Philip: lot of humor in the book as well, and it's
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  Sean Philip: quite a nice read, isn't it? And one of the things that
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  Sean Philip: stuck out for me when we're thinking about how you
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  Sean Philip: approach these different things as a couple was the story
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  Sean Philip: of the Diablo, the idea that actually one couple had
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  Sean Philip: really positioned their kind of financial challenge, which was to
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  Sean Philip: clear their collective student debt as this villain that they
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  Sean Philip: both wanted to go. And slay and in a really nice playful
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  Sean Philip: way, they've been able to kind of tackle quite a
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  Sean Philip: serious topic, but in a way that's also brought them
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  Sean Philip: together. And I think they were probably both fantasy fans.
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  Iona: True. Yeah.
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  Sean Philip: And it's not going to necessarily work for everyone, but
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  Sean Philip: it was just a really nice way of kind of
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  Sean Philip: sharing these stories and showing how there isn't one way
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  Sean Philip: of doing this. But if you are collectively tackling these
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  Sean Philip: things together, then you're much more likely to vanquish that villain.
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  Iona: Yeah. Yeah. I really like the use of those examples
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  Iona: as well to bring this whole thorny subject to life
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  Iona: and to do it in a way that will resonate
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  Iona: with people who aren't necessarily finance narratives, let's face it.
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  Iona: And I think that's what this book has in common
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  Iona: with Psychology of Money. It is very much aimed at
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  Iona: people who maybe haven't given their finances a lot of
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  Iona: thought and certainly haven't talked that much with their partner
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  Iona: about their finances. And I feel that this can be
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  Iona: such a daunting subject that if you talk about it
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  Iona: in those terms, then you just help to open up
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  Iona: those conversations with your other half. And I feel that
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  Iona: their examples that they used throughout the book just illustrate
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  Iona: that all couples struggle with this issue. And even those
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  Iona: couples that present a really beautiful image of their relationship
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  Iona: on Instagram and the fact that you can end up
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  Iona: looking at other couples and thinking, they've got it all
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  Iona: sorted. Actually, nobody's got it sorted. We're all fighting our
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  Iona: own battles, but what's most important and what really came
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  Iona: through for me is the fact that you are a
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  Iona: team. You have to work together and try to find
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  Iona: that balance between managing your own independence and working with
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  Iona: that other person on your shared goals because we're not
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  Iona: in a world anymore where you just kind of decide
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  Iona: to let your other half make all the decisions for
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  Iona: you when it comes to your finances. We're in a
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  Iona: world now where actually having your own independence is a
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  Iona: good thing. It's a good safety measure, but how can
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  Iona: you do that without shutting out your partner and how
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  Iona: can you do that without making them feel like you're
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  Iona: not including them in your future? And I feel like
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  Iona: they just tackle that whole subject in a very down
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  Iona: to earth way. It is American, so if you're a
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  Iona: British reader, you might have to kind of get on
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  Iona: board with, like, the American language and the American financial
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  Iona: system, which is different from ours. But if you can
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  Iona: see past that, there are universal truths in there that I
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  Iona: think will resonate with everyone.
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  Sean Philip: Yeah, no, absolutely. And obviously, it is a book written
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  Sean Philip: by a couple, the examples in there are all couples.
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  Sean Philip: If you're single, is it still a worthwhile read?
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  Iona: I think so. Yeah. I think it's good to be aware of a lot
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  Iona: of these issues before you get into a relationship with
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  Iona: someone because I think it can be really, really hard
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  Iona: to address this stuff once you're further down the line.
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  Iona: And goodness knows a number of people that I speak
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  Iona: to who get together with someone and they're really squeamish
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  Iona: about asking those questions on the early dates because they
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  Iona: don't think it's very romantic. And you can just picture
• 11:08
  Iona: the scene in a restaurant where like you're having a
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  Iona: very lovely candle at meal and then you bring up
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  Iona: the subject of how much have you got in your ISA? It's a bit of a passion
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  Iona: killer. But I think if you do have this kind
• 11:20
  Iona: of stuff in mind when you're going into relationships, then
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  Iona: you can have those conversations early on because communication is
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  Iona: key. So long as you keep talking and you're doing
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  Iona: it in an empathetic and compassionate way with one another,
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  Iona: and the book's got lots of exercises that will show
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  Iona: you how to do that, then I think you're on
• 11:37
  Iona: the right path, even if you're quite different people and
• 11:39
  Iona: you've come from maybe quite different backgrounds, that's not an
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  Iona: insurmountable challenge. You can still work it out to quote
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  Iona: the Beatles/ Stevie Wonder. You can still overcome those obstacles
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  Iona: if you're committed to working together as a team.
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  Sean Philip: Do you find that you've managed your money any differently after
• 11:55
  Sean Philip: you've read the book?
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  Iona: Yeah. So in terms of my own relationship, I'm definitely
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  Iona: going to give this to my other half because I
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  Iona: think there is a lot of food for thought in
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  Iona: there and it will also help me and him maybe
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  Iona: address some of these difficult issues that can come up
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  Iona: in a relationship in a way that will take the
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  Iona: heat out of it. And I think that that will
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  Iona: definitely be helpful. So, yeah. So coming onto more personal
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  Iona: development books, Sean, your next book that you want to
• 12:22
  Iona: chat about is Atomic Habits. Can you tell me in
• 12:26
  Iona: one sentence what this is about?
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  Sean Philip: Atomic Habits by James Clear. It's a big global success
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  Sean Philip: story. Over 50 million copies have been sold and really
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  Sean Philip: it's all about how you can use the different techniques
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  Sean Philip: within the book to create new good habits.
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  Iona: So what drew you to this book?
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  Sean Philip: On one level, this is a really practical book that
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  Sean Philip: provides lots of different examples and exercises that you can
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  Sean Philip: go through and frameworks to create habits. On the other
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  Sean Philip: hand, and what drew me in was the bigger picture
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  Sean Philip: piece around it, which is the early kind of chapters.
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  Sean Philip: And for me, the real kind of thrust of the
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  Sean Philip: book was that it's actually more about identity and about
• 13:05
  Sean Philip: who you are and who you want to become as
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  Sean Philip: a person as opposed to the different things that maybe
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  Sean Philip: you want to do. To kind of use an example, James Clear
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  Sean Philip: talks a bit about if you're going to the gym, often
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  Sean Philip: people say, and it'll be a classic New Year's resolution, "
• 13:19
  Sean Philip: I want to go to the gym three days a
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  Sean Philip: week," let's say. But you're unlikely to keep that up
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  Sean Philip: if it hasn't fundamentally become part of your identity and
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  Sean Philip: who you are. I think what he's really doing is
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  Sean Philip: trying to encourage you first to think about, " Well, who
• 13:30
  Sean Philip: is it that I want to become?" And if you frame
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  Sean Philip: it like that and you say, " Well, I want to
• 13:33
  Sean Philip: become somebody who's healthy and fit and strong," then you're
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  Sean Philip: much more likely to find the habits and the behaviors
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  Sean Philip: that you want to do to get there, sustain and
• 13:44
  Sean Philip: the things that you're actually going to carry on doing.
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  Iona: Yeah. He definitely unpacks what has to go into making those
• 13:52
  Iona: habits stick and it's all very well having a system
• 13:55
  Iona: in place if you want to have your trainers beside
• 13:57
  Iona: the bed so that when you get up in the
• 13:59
  Iona: morning, you just see the trainers there and you've got
• 14:01
  Iona: one less excuse not to go to the gym. But ultimately, if
• 14:05
  Iona: you don't believe that actually you're someone who can become
• 14:08
  Iona: fitter and healthier and that you don't see that as
• 14:10
  Iona: part of your identity, then yeah, I can see why
• 14:13
  Iona: you're going to fail at the first hurdle. And I
• 14:15
  Iona: feel like that's got so much relevance for finance because
• 14:20
  Iona: so many people I meet will say to me, " Oh,
• 14:22
  Iona: I'm terrible with money. I'm never going to get better
• 14:25
  Iona: with this." And I feel like once you start identifying
• 14:28
  Iona: in that way, that's half the battle there that you're
• 14:32
  Iona: not winning because ultimately you're putting that label on yourself.
• 14:35
  Iona: And it's something that I think in Britain, especially actually,
• 14:38
  Iona: we feel very comfortable saying, but in other cultures and
• 14:41
  Iona: other countries, not so much. And that's what I find quite
• 14:44
  Iona: interesting about the book. It's challenging us all to think
• 14:47
  Iona: about the identities that we create for ourselves. Yeah.
• 14:50
  Sean Philip: I think you're absolutely right. And that's one of the things that I've taken
• 14:52
  Sean Philip: from it, which is if I want to think of myself as somebody who is confident with their finances, then what
• 14:59
  Sean Philip: are the different habits that come off the back of
• 15:00
  Sean Philip: that? And this is where we start thinking a bit
• 15:02
  Sean Philip: more about some of the tactical things that you can
• 15:04
  Sean Philip: actually do, but he talks about habit stacking. So where
• 15:07
  Sean Philip: you've probably already got quite a lot of different habits
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  Sean Philip: that are not bad or good, they might be neutral
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  Sean Philip: in and of themselves, but how do you use them
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  Sean Philip: and leverage them to start bringing through the habits that
• 15:18
  Sean Philip: are going to help you achieve your identity? So for
• 15:21
  Sean Philip: me, that might be, and I'm sure I'm not alone
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  Sean Philip: in this, the first thing I do when I wake
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  Sean Philip: up in the morning, reach for the phone, start flicking
• 15:26
  Sean Philip: through the socials, maybe like read a bit of the news. But if
• 15:30
  Sean Philip: I'm thinking about, well, how do I start to achieve
• 15:32
  Sean Philip: that identity of being somebody who is more financially aware
• 15:35
  Sean Philip: and confident, then actually before I kind of give myself
• 15:39
  Sean Philip: the endorphin rush of checking the socials, let's have a
• 15:41
  Sean Philip: look, what's my bank balance and how much have I got in my savings? Let's
• 15:44
  Sean Philip: build that up as the habit so that actually when
• 15:47
  Sean Philip: you do reach for your phone, because you are inevitably
• 15:49
  Sean Philip: going to do that, it's also linked to feeling more
• 15:51
  Sean Philip: confident about your finances.
• 15:53
  Iona: That's interesting. Although I have to say, Sean, you're a
• 15:55
  Iona: brave man if the first thing you do in the
• 15:57
  Iona: morning is check your bank balance. But maybe that's the
• 16:00
  Iona: point. Actually, it's about just having these habits in place
• 16:04
  Iona: so that you are not being daunted by these things
• 16:07
  Iona: because often people get so intimidated by the idea of
• 16:11
  Iona: doing something like checking their bank balance. They've built it
• 16:13
  Iona: up in their head and because they don't have a
• 16:15
  Iona: system for actually making that a daily habit, then it
• 16:19
  Iona: just never happens. Whereas, yeah, why not do it first thing in the morning?
• 16:22
  Iona: At least you get it over and done with. And
• 16:26
  Iona: have you made any changes in your own life since
• 16:29
  Iona: reading this book?
• 16:30
  Sean Philip: I'm a chronic nail biter and I have been for
• 16:32
  Sean Philip: a very, very long time. And it's maybe not encouraged
• 16:35
  Sean Philip: me to stop quite yet, but I'm definitely much more
• 16:37
  Sean Philip: aware now of when I'm doing it, which is a
• 16:39
  Sean Philip: good thing. So I'm on a bit of a journey
• 16:41
  Sean Philip: with stopping that habit, but I'm getting there.
• 16:43
  Iona: Brilliant. That's good to hear.
• 16:44
  Sean Philip: Yeah. What about you, Iona? Have you picked up any
• 16:46
  Sean Philip: new habits?
• 16:47
  Iona: Yeah, I have. So actually, like you, the temptation to
• 16:52
  Iona: just pick up my phone in the morning is really
• 16:54
  Iona: strong. And instead, what I say to myself is that
• 16:57
  Iona: I'm going to read a non- fiction book in the
• 16:59
  Iona: morning and a fiction book at night. Now, I don't
• 17:02
  Iona: always succeed, but if I have that habit in place
• 17:06
  Iona: and it's just something that I do that's tied in
• 17:09
  Iona: with waking up and going to bed, then these are
• 17:13
  Iona: the windows that I know I should be reading in.
• 17:16
  Iona: And the great thing about that is that actually the
• 17:18
  Iona: nonfiction book could be a finance book. In the past few
• 17:21
  Iona: weeks from we've been reading these books for the book
• 17:23
  Iona: club, it's been a really good time. And actually, it
• 17:26
  Iona: helps you start the day then with a very enlightened
• 17:28
  Iona: mindset as opposed to getting quite stressed out about the
• 17:31
  Iona: latest news. So yeah, I feel that this book's definitely
• 17:34
  Iona: made me think differently about my own habits. And ultimately,
• 17:39
  Iona: life is made up of what we do habitually. It's
• 17:42
  Iona: who we are, it's how we behave. And I think
• 17:44
  Iona: sometimes there is that disconnect between who we think we
• 17:47
  Iona: are or who we want to be and what we
• 17:48
  Iona: actually do in our day- to- day life. And we're
• 17:51
  Iona: never going to get it perfectly right.
• 17:52
  Sean Philip: Great. I think this is the last book. It's The Anxiety
• 17:55
  Sean Philip: Solution, isn't it, by Chloe Brotheridge? Could you tell us
• 17:58
  Sean Philip: what it's all about?
• 17:59
  Iona: So the Anxiety Solution is a book that is really
• 18:02
  Iona: designed, as the name suggests, to help you address your
• 18:06
  Iona: anxiety, whether that is at a kind of low level
• 18:11
  Iona: or whether it's something that is more chronic and diagnosable.
• 18:15
  Iona: Chloe is a qualified hypnotherapist, but she is also popular
• 18:20
  Iona: on social media because she is very good at sharing
• 18:23
  Iona: practical strategies for helping you manage your anxiety.
• 18:26
  Sean Philip: Why should people read it?
• 18:28
  Iona: I think we all feel anxious and that might be
• 18:32
  Iona: just from time to time at quite a low level
• 18:35
  Iona: or it could be something that happens on a regular
• 18:37
  Iona: basis. And I know at various points, I've had anxiety
• 18:41
  Iona: and that has been on a big spectrum ranging from
• 18:46
  Iona: mild to quite severe. And when your anxiety becomes more
• 18:50
  Iona: severe, it not only gets in the way of you
• 18:53
  Iona: being able to enjoy life, it actually gets in the
• 18:55
  Iona: way of you being able to make good decisions as
• 18:57
  Iona: well. And that's why being anxious shouldn't just become something
• 19:02
  Iona: that you tolerate and that you think is part of
• 19:04
  Iona: your identity, coming back to what we were saying, or
• 19:07
  Iona: something that you think is just, you just have to
• 19:10
  Iona: live with it and feel like it's just part of
• 19:12
  Iona: 21st century living. Of course, being anxious is fine on
• 19:16
  Iona: occasion. It's normal, it's healthy, it shows that we care
• 19:19
  Iona: and it shows that we want things to be good
• 19:21
  Iona: in our life, but if it tips over into a
• 19:24
  Iona: place where it stops us making decisions, it stops us
• 19:27
  Iona: being able to move forward, that's when we need to
• 19:31
  Iona: tackle it. And this is what I found really helpful
• 19:33
  Iona: about the book. I first read it back in 2017,
• 19:35
  Iona: so it's not a new book. It's been around for
• 19:37
  Iona: a while, but it was the first book that I'd
• 19:39
  Iona: read out of many, many psychology books that actually then
• 19:43
  Iona: gave me tools that I could apply in my own
• 19:46
  Iona: life. So I think the two that really stuck out
• 19:48
  Iona: for me were, firstly, it's such a simple idea, but
• 19:52
  Iona: the idea of making your decisions good. So I can
• 19:56
  Iona: sometimes get quite indecisive because I'm really worried about the
• 20:01
  Iona: outcome of the decisions that I make and that then
• 20:04
  Iona: leads to paralysis. And I feel like this applies to
• 20:07
  Iona: so many different things, but when it happens with your
• 20:10
  Iona: finances, it can be really problematic because then you're not
• 20:14
  Iona: going to push ahead with things like saving, investing, putting
• 20:17
  Iona: money into your pension when actually all of these things
• 20:20
  Iona: are really important. So for me, having the mentality of,
• 20:25
  Iona: if I make a decision, I'm going to make that
• 20:28
  Iona: decision good. That's what Chloe talked about. Make your decisions
• 20:31
  Iona: good as in once you've decided on something, make it
• 20:35
  Iona: work and see the best of it and see it
• 20:38
  Iona: through. And even if it's not perfect and there are
• 20:42
  Iona: flaws in it, you can always come back and address
• 20:44
  Iona: it and tweak it and change it. But ultimately, if
• 20:47
  Iona: you can just make that decision good, then you can
• 20:49
  Iona: move forward and make that first step. And the other
• 20:52
  Iona: thing that really worked for me was worry time. So
• 20:55
  Iona: her suggestion is just set aside some time to worry
• 20:58
  Iona: about stuff and outside of that, say, " No, I am
• 21:01
  Iona: not going to worry about this right now." And that
• 21:03
  Iona: includes at 3: 00 AM when you have to go
• 21:05
  Iona: to the toilet and you get back into bed and
• 21:08
  Iona: suddenly your brain switches on with all the existential worries.
• 21:12
  Iona: I now say to myself, " I'm going to put that
• 21:15
  Iona: aside because that's not worry time. Right now, this is
• 21:19
  Iona: sleep time." And when I get round to worry time,
• 21:22
  Iona: I often find the things that I was worried about
• 21:24
  Iona: have gone away. I've kind of got them into perspective.
• 21:26
  Iona: My subconscious brain has turned it over and decided it's
• 21:29
  Iona: not that much of an issue. And if it is
• 21:31
  Iona: still something I'm worried about by the time I get
• 21:33
  Iona: to worry time, then her advice is to definitely just
• 21:37
  Iona: break it down into practical steps as to how you
• 21:39
  Iona: can address it. So if I'm worried about my earnings
• 21:43
  Iona: as a freelancer, break it down and ask yourself why
• 21:46
  Iona: you're worried about it, and then you can come up
• 21:47
  Iona: with a solution. And just writing things down in general
• 21:50
  Iona: does wanders for your anxiety. So I mean, those are
• 21:53
  Iona: just two examples, but honestly, the book is absolutely stacked
• 21:57
  Iona: full of that kind of practical advice that I found really useful.
• 22:00
  Sean Philip: Yeah. There's a brilliant chapter in the book around control
• 22:03
  Sean Philip: and the way that actually anxiety can come about through
• 22:06
  Sean Philip: the feeling that you've lost control or you don't have
• 22:08
  Sean Philip: control over something. And I really liked some of the
• 22:11
  Sean Philip: analogies that Chloe used around that and how that links
• 22:13
  Sean Philip: in with finances because I think personally, if I think
• 22:16
  Sean Philip: back to when I was at university and like never
• 22:19
  Sean Philip: wanting to check my bank balance because it was almost
• 22:22
  Sean Philip: like, well, if I don't check it, then it's fine.
• 22:27
  Iona: I won't get bad news.
• 22:27
  Sean Philip: And the kind of feeling like, well, if I did check
• 22:28
  Sean Philip: it, I've kind of lost control over it. But I
• 22:30
  Sean Philip: mean, the reality is I never had control in the
• 22:32
  Sean Philip: first place, clearly. But I think the thing that I
• 22:34
  Sean Philip: like in the book is the kind of concept that
• 22:37
  Sean Philip: sometimes you just have to lean into that and let
• 22:40
  Sean Philip: the anxiety float over you, I think is the terminology
• 22:44
  Sean Philip: that she uses. And she uses this great example of skiing.
• 22:47
  Iona: Yeah.
• 22:47
  Sean Philip: If you've ever been skiing, when you're learning to ski,
• 22:49
  Sean Philip: you have this kind of innate worry and fear of losing
• 22:52
  Sean Philip: control and falling over. And what that encourages you to
• 22:55
  Sean Philip: do is because it's an instinct, is you lean back
• 22:57
  Sean Philip: and you try and stop yourself from the problem and
• 23:00
  Sean Philip: that just has the opposite effect and you're much more
• 23:02
  Sean Philip: likely to fall and not succeed. Whereas actually in skiing
• 23:06
  Sean Philip: and I think in life and definitely with finances, actually
• 23:10
  Sean Philip: you need to lean into it and you need to
• 23:11
  Sean Philip: lean forward. And yes, you are going to have this
• 23:14
  Sean Philip: feeling of losing control maybe, but leaning into it allows
• 23:18
  Sean Philip: that anxiety to kind of float over you and actually
• 23:20
  Sean Philip: gives you more of that control in the long run.
• 23:23
  Iona: Yeah. It's a brilliant analogy and yeah, it's so applicable to finance
• 23:27
  Iona: because there is so much about money that is uncertain
• 23:30
  Iona: that we can't predict. I mean, if you put your
• 23:33
  Iona: money into the stock market, you just have no idea
• 23:36
  Iona: what's going to happen there. You've got a fairly good
• 23:37
  Iona: idea and you can make decisions that will manage your
• 23:40
  Iona: risk, but ultimately, you do have to take a leap
• 23:43
  Iona: of faith. And it's the same if you're buying a
• 23:45
  Iona: house, it's the same if you're putting money into your
• 23:48
  Iona: pension. You do have to just overcome that initial anxiety
• 23:52
  Iona: that you're not totally in control. And therefore, I think
• 23:55
  Iona: if you have ever had any anxiety around your finances,
• 23:58
  Iona: and let's face it, it would be weird if you
• 24:00
  Iona: didn't, then this book will definitely help you with that,
• 24:04
  Iona: but it will also help you if you have any
• 24:06
  Iona: kind of generalized anxiety. Well, we really hope that that's
• 24:11
  Iona: inspired you to start reading and get your new year
• 24:13
  Iona: off to a great start. If this episode has motivated
• 24:16
  Iona: you this January, why not share the podcast and help
• 24:19
  Iona: others get a little bit richer, too? Next time, we're
• 24:22
  Iona: joined by friend of the show and L& G's Jenny
• 24:25
  Iona: Hazan to talk about divorce and your longer term finances
• 24:29
  Iona: with some practical things that you need to think about.
• 24:32
  Iona: This podcast is brought to you by L& G. You
• 24:34
  Iona: can keep up with the show on YouTube, TikTok, and Instagram @
• 24:37
  Iona: legalandgeneral. If you've got a question or topic you'd like
• 24:40
  Iona: answered on the show, please do get in touch on
• 24:42
  Iona: our socials. Until next time, thanks for listening and see
• 24:46
  Iona: you soon.