Latest / The Trauma Therapist / From the archives: Peter Levine, PhD (Part 2 of 2)

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From the archives: Peter Levine, PhD (Part 2 of 2) · The Trauma Therapist

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  Speaker 1: Or today we even another episode from the archives with
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  Speaker 1: one of my incredible guests. Enjoy Welcome to the Trauma
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  Speaker 1: Ever's podcast, a show about the incredible people dedicated to
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  Speaker 1: helping those of experienced trauma. My name is got macpherson,
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  Speaker 1: and my mission is to raise awareness of trauma and
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  Speaker 1: to inspire each of us to help those around us.
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  Speaker 1: What I want to do is kind of ask you
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  Speaker 1: about an early clinical error. You know, this podcast really
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  Speaker 1: is about getting to know your journey, your pathway.
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  Speaker 2: You know, we talked a little bit about what got
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  Speaker 2: you into this field.
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  Speaker 1: Share with us, if you will, an early clinical error
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  Speaker 1: you made that you know, perhaps has influenced you and
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  Speaker 1: the work you've done.
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  Speaker 3: Indeed, indeed, well, first of all, the story Nancy was
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  Speaker 3: almost one of my early crucial listings.
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  Speaker 1: That's what I thought.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, right, you know, I think my biggest mistakes wasn't
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  Speaker 3: working with a couple of people who were sexually abused
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  Speaker 3: by their fathers. And I don't think I've really got
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  Speaker 3: the complexity of that.
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  Speaker 4: And how to handle it.
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  Speaker 3: And indeed, it's it's it's intricate, It can be quite intricate,
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  Speaker 3: and when it's a kind of a long, long story
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  Speaker 3: about how I evolved in that direction, but maybe suffice
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  Speaker 3: it to stay was not really appreciating the nuances and
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  Speaker 3: that like, in order for I believe that for therapy
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  Speaker 3: with sexual trauma to be effected, the person must exhibit
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  Speaker 3: their own sexual healing. In other words, you can the
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  Speaker 3: person can say, Okay, the person did this, they reved
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  Speaker 3: that they understood that it wasn't their fault, and so forth.
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  Speaker 3: But if they don't really have a free, spontaneous sexuality
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  Speaker 3: with the person that they're intimate with.
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  Speaker 4: That they want to be intimate with, that the therapy
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  Speaker 4: isn't done.
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  Speaker 3: But at the same time, it was really tricky because
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  Speaker 3: in order for the person to establish this healthy sexuality
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  Speaker 3: in their mind, it would be excusing what the perpetrator
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  Speaker 3: did to them. So it took me a while to
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  Speaker 3: really learn how to hold those two together. That they
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  Speaker 3: were not the same that yours, that the person's sexuality
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  Speaker 3: was their sexuality, nobody could take that away from them,
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  Speaker 3: and that what what what was what was done to
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  Speaker 3: them was something that.
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  Speaker 4: H well, that's the word I'm looking for.
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  Speaker 3: That was both confusing and a breaking of a sacred trust.
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  Speaker 3: It was really a betrayal of an injustice, a core injustice,
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  Speaker 3: and how to deal with this core injustice and to
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  Speaker 3: re establish this the full or organismic sexuality somewhat as
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  Speaker 3: as Wilhelm Reich described in his work, which by the way,
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  Speaker 3: I was very greatly influenced by. So yeah, to really
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  Speaker 3: hold those together and to work with this very delicate subject.
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  Speaker 3: I remember this woman wrote a book. I don't remember
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  Speaker 3: I never read the book because I heard her interview
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  Speaker 3: and I just know I wouldn't be interested in the book.
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  Speaker 4: But basically she her point in this book was that.
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  Speaker 3: Sexual violation by family members was not traumatic. And the
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  Speaker 3: point I think that she was trying to make is
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  Speaker 3: it's not traumatic in the sense that PTSD is, but
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  Speaker 3: also it can be more confusing, more conflictual then PTSD.
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  Speaker 3: So and she got a lot of I mean, you
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  Speaker 3: can imagine a lot of people really really hated her
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  Speaker 3: and felt that she that she betrayed them, But at
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  Speaker 3: the same time she did having a point that then
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  Speaker 3: not one and the same thing necessarily, of course, depends
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  Speaker 3: on how it was perpetrated. If there was fear, you know, uh,
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  Speaker 3: tremendous fear or physical violence, and you know, they're all
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  Speaker 3: different kinds of variables, but.
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  Speaker 4: The key isn't helping the person.
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  Speaker 3: Untangle this confusion, this betrayal, the sense of injustice and
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  Speaker 3: to demand justice for themselves for their protecting their own
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  Speaker 3: adult sexuality. They're all in adult sensuality. I I, I
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  Speaker 3: it's difficult. I know, I'm not quite getting the right words,
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  Speaker 3: and you know, I have to bumble along.
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  Speaker 1: With this, but it's no But I really think that
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  Speaker 1: what you're what you're relating here is coming through and
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  Speaker 1: I really appreciate it because it does sound so nuanced
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  Speaker 1: and complex and the way you're uh, you know, speaking
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  Speaker 1: about these these two elements which need to go in
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  Speaker 1: in order for an digital to comte become healed, it
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  Speaker 1: obviously is very complex.
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  Speaker 2: So I really appreciate you taking the time to do that.
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  Speaker 1: So let's kind of move along. We get to one
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  Speaker 1: of my favorite questions, which is why you know, I
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  Speaker 1: believe Peter that it's really important to know why we're
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  Speaker 1: doing something because I feel it drives us along in
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  Speaker 1: our passions in our journey. So this is a little
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  Speaker 1: bit different than you know, what got you into this
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  Speaker 1: field in the first place, But share with us, what
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  Speaker 1: is your why for doing this?
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  Speaker 2: Day in and day out.
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  Speaker 3: Okay, I'm going to take you back to my childhood.
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  Speaker 3: That's four or five years oka, five five six years ago.
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  Speaker 3: I had a little red wagon. I stayed on my
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  Speaker 3: grandfather's farm as much as I could, because I didn't
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  Speaker 3: like the city. And during the summer, he would we
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  Speaker 3: would fill aagon with vegetables and fruits and we would
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  Speaker 3: be and my brother I put my brother was in
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  Speaker 3: the wagon as well.
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  Speaker 4: And we would go.
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  Speaker 3: Two of these places where there was a bungalow colony
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  Speaker 3: and sell the vegetables to fruit. And for that my
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  Speaker 3: grandfather gave us a ten of the gross. He was
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  Speaker 3: a bit of a tight wi anyhow, but and a
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  Speaker 3: very important person in my life. So one day I
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  Speaker 3: was going back and I had sold everything but.
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  Speaker 4: A cantaloupe melon, and.
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  Speaker 3: We stopped for a rest, and then I pulled the
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  Speaker 3: wagon and I noticed the melon going backwards to the
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  Speaker 3: back of the to the to the back of the wagon,
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  Speaker 3: and I looked at it, and I put it up
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  Speaker 3: in the front, and I pulled it again, and I
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  Speaker 3: just I was totally perplexed.
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  Speaker 4: Why is it that it went in the opposite direction.
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  Speaker 3: So then I put the melon up front, and I
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  Speaker 3: had my brother pull the handle, pull the wagon, and
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  Speaker 3: I was sitting right by the melon. And when he
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  Speaker 3: did that, I realized the melon stayed static. It was
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  Speaker 3: the wagon that was moving, not the melon. And then
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  Speaker 3: I tried it was all kinds of balls and so forth.
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  Speaker 3: And my mother says, you know, Peter, you discovered Newton's
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  Speaker 3: first law. You know, a body in motion tends to
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  Speaker 3: stay in motion, a body at rest tends to stay
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  Speaker 3: at rest.
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  Speaker 4: So I was always always hungry for the why of things.
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  Speaker 3: And sometimes people say, oh, Peter, you're such a compassionate person.
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  Speaker 3: You're just an empathic person, And I mean, I hope
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  Speaker 3: that that's somewhat true at least, But I think what
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  Speaker 3: drives me even more is my sense of curiosity of
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  Speaker 3: how things work and how people heal, as well as
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  Speaker 3: the joy of how they heal.
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  Speaker 4: But it's really it's a it's something that I've I've
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  Speaker 4: really never lost.
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  Speaker 3: This, this this this hunger for knowledge, is wanting to
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  Speaker 3: understand the mechanisms of how things work.
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  Speaker 4: And I'm still doing that.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, I'm really doing some work with some colleagues
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  Speaker 3: at Darkness right now and really trying to understand the
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  Speaker 3: neurobiological substrates of what happens in se therapy, and and
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  Speaker 3: for honing my clinical skills and my own presence, which
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  Speaker 3: is continuing my own personal work. You know, sometimes I'll
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  Speaker 3: do a lecture and there's four or five hundred people
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  Speaker 3: in the audience.
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  Speaker 4: And I'll say, how many of you have a.
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  Speaker 3: Regular practice, you know, like yoga or tai chi or meditations.
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  Speaker 4: And when you know, fifteen twenty years ago, nobody raised
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  Speaker 4: their hands.
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  Speaker 3: Now you know, often a third or a quarter, a
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  Speaker 3: third or a half.
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  Speaker 4: Raise their hands.
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  Speaker 3: But I think it's essential that therapists have some kind
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  Speaker 3: of practice where they stay current with their bodies.
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  Speaker 4: But sometimes you still.
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  Speaker 3: Like I remember when I lived in Colorado, I lived
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  Speaker 3: right on the river, and sometimes I would, you know,
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  Speaker 3: it would be a day where I just worked with
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  Speaker 3: the most horrendous traumise, you know, atrocities, and what I
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  Speaker 3: would People would ask me what I would do, And
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  Speaker 3: what what I did was I went first, I took
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  Speaker 3: my shoes off and went in the river. And no, no,
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  Speaker 3: first I got some cans, some beer cans or whatever,
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  Speaker 3: soda cans, and I would just kick them down the
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  Speaker 3: country road that I lived on and all my neighbors
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  Speaker 3: would you know, they say, oh, yeah, that's doctor Levine again.
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  Speaker 3: He's had a trying day. And then I would sit
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  Speaker 3: by the river and so find my feet in the river,
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  Speaker 3: and I needed to really give a voice or a body,
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  Speaker 3: a bodied voice to my anger that people could do
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  Speaker 3: such horrible things, and then to wash it away to
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  Speaker 3: kind of I guess.
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  Speaker 4: It was like a purification ritual.
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  Speaker 3: And you know, after I would do something like that,
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  Speaker 3: I was back, I was I was in myself again,
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  Speaker 3: and I was you know, and also sometimes I really didn't.
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  Speaker 3: I would call up a colleague, a friend colleague and say,
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  Speaker 3: let's you know, let's talk a little bit, and you know,
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  Speaker 3: this has really been bothering me, and they would be
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  Speaker 3: the same with me. So I think really having a
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  Speaker 3: regular practice finding out what works specifically for you, and
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  Speaker 3: also having a group of coorts that you are connected
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  Speaker 3: with and that you can touch in with, you know,
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  Speaker 3: because when we work with other people's traumise, it brings
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  Speaker 3: up our own traumise or the parts of our.
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  Speaker 4: Traumas I can say that aren't really revolved in.
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  Speaker 1: So this kind of seems like a perfect segue into
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  Speaker 1: advice for early stage trauma therapists. You know a lot
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  Speaker 1: of people listening to this, Peter are therapists with experience,
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  Speaker 1: but who perhaps don't feel that they've worked with trauma.
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  Speaker 2: People who've been traumatized.
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  Speaker 1: Before and want to begin to expand their trauma informed knowledge.
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  Speaker 1: Others are just beginning to get educated into this arena,
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  Speaker 1: this knowledge of trauma informed practice. What advice would you
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  Speaker 1: have for for those people who are just beginning on
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  Speaker 1: their journey to learn about m m hm hmm.
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  Speaker 3: But I think the first thing is you got to
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  Speaker 3: learn how to show up and be present and shut up.
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  Speaker 4: And look Yogi Berra said you can. You can.
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  Speaker 3: You can observe a lot just by watching and and listening.
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  Speaker 3: So again, I think it's our capacity to remain embodied
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  Speaker 3: is the most important thing any therapist can do. For
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  Speaker 3: a beginning therapists and trying or beginning to incorporate trauma
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  Speaker 3: work into their into their practice, it's I think it's
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  Speaker 3: essential to really really appreciate the goal of the body,
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  Speaker 3: how important that is, and learn some makes its skills
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  Speaker 3: of being able to track, in other words, being able
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  Speaker 3: to observe what's going on in the person's body, and
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  Speaker 3: of helping the client be able to contact what's going
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  Speaker 3: on in their bodies, and in doing this, helping clients
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  Speaker 3: learn how to ground, how to center.
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  Speaker 5: How to shift, how the states of distress into states
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  Speaker 5: into more ease.
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  Speaker 3: There's a phenomenon that I call pendulation. And when we're
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  Speaker 3: working in a gradual way, in the tit writing way,
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  Speaker 3: and the person comes in contact, maybe for the first time,
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  Speaker 3: with their body sensation. Because traumatize people again, they cut
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  Speaker 3: off the body. The bodies become the enemy because it's
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  Speaker 3: the harbinger of the helplessness of the overwhelmed.
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  Speaker 4: So don't want.
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  Speaker 3: Anything to do with it. So when they first begin
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  Speaker 3: to sense it for the first time, it feels like
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  Speaker 3: it's worse. Well I'm guess in a way, I guess
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  Speaker 3: it is. But when they're able to contact it just
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  Speaker 3: for a short amount of time and they're able to
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  Speaker 3: feel their extremities, feel their sense of grounding, the centering.
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  Speaker 3: As they're able to do that, they notice that even
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  Speaker 3: though it contracts, then in a relatively short period of
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  Speaker 3: time at expands.
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  Speaker 4: So think about a hand. An open hand.
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  Speaker 3: Okay, so you close the hand into a fist. That's contraction.
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  Speaker 3: But then as the fist opens into a hand. That's
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  Speaker 3: the expansion. So you have the fist contraction, the hand expansion,
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  Speaker 3: and then as you move more and more to expansion,
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  Speaker 3: then where did the trauma go? Well, it's that kind
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  Speaker 3: of thing. So even just helping clients learn that whatever
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  Speaker 3: they're experience, no matter how uncomfortable it is, that it
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  Speaker 3: will shift, it can shift, and it will shit and
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  Speaker 3: you can help guide them to make that shit. And
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  Speaker 3: once you've done that, you've gotten forty nine percent of
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  Speaker 3: where you need to do.
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  Speaker 1: So shut up, be present or show up, be present
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  Speaker 1: and shut up. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, and then
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  Speaker 1: really appreciate the role of the body. And of course,
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  Speaker 1: you know you're really talking about us as therapists really
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  Speaker 1: working on ourselves, be learning to become aware, learning to
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  Speaker 1: be embodied, remain embodied, be conscious of that and the role,
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  Speaker 1: the important role that plays in the work we do
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  Speaker 1: for our clients. And also you talked about just the
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  Speaker 1: importance of learning the fundamental if you will, the basic
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  Speaker 1: skills of you know, tracking and grounding and helping our
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  Speaker 1: clients to do those in the center. That great advice there. So, Peter,
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  Speaker 1: can you recommend two books?
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  Speaker 3: Uh?
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  Speaker 1: And they don't have to be trauma related, besides Judith
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  Speaker 1: Herman's Trauma and Recovery, which have had a major impact
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  Speaker 1: on the work you used.
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  Speaker 4: Absolutely, that was the first book. That was the first book.
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  Speaker 3: And she was a pioneer, absolute pioneer. I think actually
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  Speaker 3: at the time when I published my book, mine was
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  Speaker 3: the third book on trauma, do the Hermins first and
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  Speaker 3: then Traumatic Stress by Vessel. And before that, you know,
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  Speaker 3: people weren't really talking about trauma. It wasn't in the
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  Speaker 3: in the in the in the landscape. And I think
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  Speaker 3: probably what brought into the landscape was a combination.
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  Speaker 4: Of the Vietnam War.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, of course, you know there were people experienced
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  Speaker 3: trauma symptoms well before that, but the the Vietnam War,
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  Speaker 3: people returning from the Vietnam War, and the women's movement
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  Speaker 3: of the seventies where it became it became not okay
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  Speaker 3: to traumatize women and children.
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  Speaker 4: To be violent to the human and be violent for
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  Speaker 4: his children.
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  Speaker 3: I think that brought this up into the into the
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  Speaker 3: cultural guide geist. So so her book was extremely, extremely valuable.
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  Speaker 3: I think her emphasis that because trauma has caused in
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  Speaker 3: that relational trauma, it's caused in relationship, that it gets
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  Speaker 3: healed in the relationship, and I think that they're missing
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  Speaker 3: the part where they also have to people have to
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  Speaker 3: also develop tools.
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  Speaker 4: Here's one more point. I think that's very important. You know, therapists, we're.
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  Speaker 3: Mostly really good at being into, attuned, empathetic, and very
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  Speaker 3: often a person who has a lot of trauma, trauma,
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  Speaker 3: they come in and they feel for the first time
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  Speaker 3: in their life that somebody really cares about them, really
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  Speaker 3: wants to listen to them.
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  Speaker 4: Is that pathic for what's going.
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  Speaker 3: On instead of destructive, And it's like they just like,
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  Speaker 3: oh my god, this is the first time I feel
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  Speaker 3: like there's some hope.
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  Speaker 4: But then when they leave.
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  Speaker 3: They disintegrate because they go right back into their their
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  Speaker 3: their horrible feelings, and now they're also dependent on the other,
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  Speaker 3: on the therapist for getting some relief. So what I
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  Speaker 3: say is essential and again for people who are starting
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  Speaker 3: to do trauma therapy, is to help person people develop
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  Speaker 3: tools that they can use for themselves that give them
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  Speaker 3: some sense of empowerment. And then the therapists and clients
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  Speaker 3: can work together in a partnership rather than the client
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  Speaker 3: being wholly fully dependent on the therapist.
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  Speaker 4: So gradually developing this.
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  Speaker 3: Authentic autonomy, and then again the healing in relationship is
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  Speaker 3: very important. But without the tools, then the trauma just
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  Speaker 3: keeps grabbing back and they feel often even more shame
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  Speaker 3: and inadequacy that they're unable to do anything by themselves.
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  Speaker 3: But of course the converse of that is when they
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  Speaker 3: can do something for themselves, they feel better about themselves.
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  Speaker 3: So gradually introducing actually that was the sounds true healing
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  Speaker 3: trauma books you do that I did specifically to help
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  Speaker 3: clients develop those kinds of skills so they could do
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  Speaker 3: them at the same time as a therapy and become
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  Speaker 3: more and more adept.
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  Speaker 4: At that.
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  Speaker 3: So, so let's see what other books have been been
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  Speaker 3: seminole for me. There was also a woman in Berkeley
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  Speaker 3: around the time. She wrote a book called Why Is
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  Speaker 3: This Happening to Me? And the Scott Scott Pockets I
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  Speaker 3: think her name. I thought that was a good book.
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  Speaker 3: You know, they're reading the work of the ethologists of
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  Speaker 3: Nicholas Kingbergen, Conrad Lawrenz and many of the other mythologists.
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  Speaker 4: Was very important to me.
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  Speaker 2: What was Nicholas's last name.
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  Speaker 6: Tinbergen, t I N G D E r G E
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  Speaker 6: and he and Conrad Larenz and uh carvon frush Christ
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  Speaker 6: when the Nobel shared the Nobel Prize in physiology, and I.
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  Speaker 3: Think it was nineteen seventy two or seventy three, and
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  Speaker 3: all of those were about what the body does.
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  Speaker 4: All of those were.
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  Speaker 3: About what the body does of observing animals and how
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  Speaker 3: to observe animals for their body in their natural environment.
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  Speaker 3: But since that time this field has has just all
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  Speaker 3: but disappeared. And I was very fortunate when I when
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  Speaker 3: I came to Berkeley to do my graduate work, I
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  Speaker 3: was a fellow in the Laboratory of Neuroethology h and
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  Speaker 3: again this was there's almost no people.
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  Speaker 4: There are a few people in the world really pursuing this.
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  Speaker 3: Line of inquiry now, although we do have the field
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  Speaker 3: of evolutionary psychology, which is related, it's related, but it
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  Speaker 3: doesn't have that same kind of death. So sore the
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: King Williams were Colle Daurn several books, wonderfully, the wonderful writer,
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: and I think he wrote Solomon's Ring that von Frist
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: I think wrote, uh uh oh, here I forgot, I
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: have a computer on linked to the rest of the world, and.
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: Here it is on the Lorens.
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: So any I will put a link to him.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, anyhow, he did write a number of books on imprinting.
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: He was the one who became famous because he became
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: the mother of the ducks, the little baby ducks that
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: followed him around. And but anyhow, he's he's he's one
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: of the great you know, he and King Bergen and
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: and Van Frist where the you know, the great people
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: in this field.
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: Awesome.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: So yeah, all right, Peter, I will link up your
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: website and you've got a lot of uh, you know,
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: just got events, You've got books, You've got the Sounds
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: True collection, which I love. I'll put links up to
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: that in the show notes page. And I just want
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: to thank you so much. I mean, this has been a,
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: like I said, kind of like a mini workshop in
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: the the I don't I don't think it's a stretch
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: to say, you know, the history of trauma psychology in
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: a sense, and it's it's treatment and therapy. But thank
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: you so much for taking the time to do this.
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: Oh, thank you, and thank you for your act kindness.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: And we will be in touch. Thanks again.
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah okay, yeah, it was a pleasure, really at the
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: pleasure Bye bye bye.
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: Even common s