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Building a Business Legacy: Insights from Matt Kinsey · Entrepreneur Odyssey

• Tejneet Selhi: Welcome to the Entrepreneurial Odyssey, the podcast that dives deep into the journey of visionary leaders and business builders. Today we have a truly inspirational guest, a man who has not only built a thriving tech company, but also leads a global organization dedicated to communication and leadership. Toastmasters, some of you may have heard of it. So please join me in welcoming Matt Kinsey, founder of IT Fusion LLC. Welcome Matt, pleasure to have you here today. Matt Kinsey: I'm glad to be here, Tejani. Tejneet Selhi: And so ⁓ you've had such a varied career, really interesting career. So I'd love to talk a little bit about your background and talk about your path into ⁓ founding and ⁓ owning IT ⁓ Matt Kinsey: Sure. Yeah, so I worked with computers for a very long time. I started when I was very young. And so always been interested in them. I got out of college, I gravitated towards technology roles. And that's been what I've done most of my life is technology based companies and technology roles within larger companies. So that's kind of my background. I'm in hardware infrastructure, networking. person, not so much on the software development side. But I'm also, I've been a Scout volunteer for 30 years. I've been in Toastmasters for, this is my 23rd year in Toastmasters. as you mentioned, I did serve as the International President for Toastmasters in 2022 and 2023. Tejneet Selhi: That's incredible, that's incredible. And terms of ⁓ various roles that ⁓ did early in your career, how have they helped shape ⁓ ⁓ into owning your business now? ⁓ have you been able to take from ⁓ of those early roles? Like I know we were speaking off air about you. your career at Office Depot, I believe. Matt Kinsey: Well, I actually started my career at Kinko's. Yeah, I a lot about customer service. I learned a lot about management. I learned the customer isn't always right, but it's our job to make them right. That was the we put it ⁓ in the region was in. It's your job to make them right, but they're not always right. Sometimes they're wrong. ⁓ And the actual is that, customer is always right in matters of style and taste. Tejneet Selhi: Kintos, excuse me. Matt Kinsey: just gets shortened and cut off. So that's part of it. And then, you know, I was doing graphic design. And so I was typing up resumes and flyers and business cards for customers, doing some logo design. But then ⁓ Kinko's became computer based, I became more computer professionally. ⁓ Tejneet Selhi: Yeah. ⁓ Interesting. Matt Kinsey: And then from there I did a couple other projects. But my last corporate job, as you mentioned, was at Office Depot, where I was an IT architect, which is a high level IT engineer that was creating systems and doing IT project management. So I wasn't doing the day-to-day IT stuff. But then in May of 2007, I left right around the time of my anniversary. That would have been my 18th anniversary. my wife and i mean is it was it was that week i left office depot and went from yellow six-figure income to zero dollars income overnight Tejneet Selhi: I can. Wow, wow, and what made you make that switch? Matt Kinsey: wasn't any one thing, it was a combination of things. I was having some challenges. ⁓ was time for me, I'll just say it was time for me to leave Office Depot. Okay, so I don't wanna get into ⁓ but there were just some things going on there that it was time for me to leave. ⁓ second thing I would say is that, you know, I'd gotten acquainted. Tejneet Selhi: Sure. Matt Kinsey: with a mental toughness coach doing my work in Toastmasters. I went to some of his programs and he was doing some mentoring on me and I kept thinking about what freedom really means and how you look at yourself even as an employee. One of the he said that stuck with me was that everyone's business owner, you may just have one client, which is the company you're working for. But if you look at yourself as a business owner on a regular basis, then you're going to be in good shape. OK. And so I did that. like, well, I've just got one client. I've convinced ⁓ client to hire me for a lot of money. I can probably convince more to hire me for less money, which eventually did come about. So that was of it. But part of it was also just ⁓ the freedom of and choice. you know, and I wanted to be very careful that I didn't get into a situation of changing one boss and turning that into, you 50 bosses. ⁓ So meant I had to create structure, I had to create a process order for other people to be empowered over time. Tejneet Selhi: interesting. I think that's a really important point to pick up on is for any entrepreneur is like say not having 50 bosses, going from one boss to not having 50 bosses. And how did you achieve that? What kind of processes and structure? mean, that's bit of a big question, but what would you say the basics are? Matt Kinsey: Thank Yeah. Right. Yeah, it's not like I did it like day one. I made plenty of mistakes of giving out my cell phone number for technical issues and too responsive. And there's an interesting thing about being too responsive. Tejneet Selhi: No, I am sorry. Yeah. Matt Kinsey: you would think people would appreciate it and they do, if you're too responsive, way someone put it to me, it's the boy wants to ask the girl out and he follows her around everywhere. And that every time she calls him, he answers immediately. And whenever she texts him, he answers within seconds. She's not interested in him because it's too easy ⁓ and ⁓ she's too eager. that was part it. Tejneet Selhi: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Matt Kinsey: then building process. know, when we hired our first person, okay, we had to build process because the stuff couldn't just be in my head of how to do things. had to figure them out, but we needed to help him figure them out by giving him process and documentation. So looking at it from an early stage, you know, when we made the decision, we really wanted to turn the business into an asset and not just a lifestyle. ⁓ please don't take me wrong. I have no criticism for people who are happy with the lifestyle business. None whatsoever. Okay? And so that was a decision we made that we wanted to build an asset. And so that meant I had to change the way we were operating. Tejneet Selhi: Sure, absolutely. Would say, ⁓ this a really difficult question, because like you say, everyone's on their own personal journey and ⁓ there's criticism for anyone in the way they're doing things, but would you say that you wanted to, when you made that decision, did you want to build for scale? Matt Kinsey: I I wasn't going like, okay, I want to build a hundred million dollar company, you know, but I was like, I want to build a company that I can pass on to my son, that I could sell to somebody else, ⁓ I could retire off of when I make the sale. I mean, those are the types of things that were in my mind that I wanted to get done. Tejneet Selhi: Yeah, yeah, that's fair, that's fair. would you say ⁓ there's key process that you would recommend that all entrepreneurs have? Or ⁓ another to put it, ⁓ what the ⁓ single process that you implemented for your business for it to get to that next level? Matt Kinsey: think for us it was tools drive our business. So it was getting the right tools in and learning how to use them effectively and that's an ongoing process. We may using more of the tools than other people are, I can't say for sure, ⁓ but know there's... a lot the tools can do that we are not utilizing right now. So that's an ongoing process because the tools change over time. ⁓ But I think the biggest process for me was getting involved with accountability groups. So from the business side, networking group, that into accountability groups. ⁓ CEO position accountability groups, I'm ⁓ actually two. Tejneet Selhi: Yes. Matt Kinsey: I'm one that is industry specific and I'm one that is cross industry where I'm the only one in my profession in it and they bring me different things. know the people in my industry and I love them and they're great they're like hey I this and this is where you fix that that's awesome okay but then I remember I'm not building their business and so I like that outside perspective of how ⁓ other have dealt with similar issues but you know I I tend to get more specific in the industry group in terms of like how do I solve this specific problem with support, with hiring, etc. But then I can talk about general HR issues with other CEOs or talk about accounting issues or talk about am I the It's ⁓ hard deal technology owners to say, am I the problem? Because they're probably going go, yeah, yeah, you're the problem. Okay? But, you know, when you've got a good CEO accountability group and they'll say, yeah, you're the problem. Okay, great. So how do I fix it? Okay. And then they can talk about their journey. So that's why I like both of them. So I would say it's a mindset of constantly learning, willing to be vulnerable in the right framework, and seriously considering the advice you're not all it's gonna work for you but you want to consider it and say why and and one thing i learned is if i if i hear some advice and i just bristle at it there's a reason and i need to figure out what is it and for me 75 percent of the time it's like you've been fighting doing this and you need to do it okay Tejneet Selhi: Hmm Okay, yeah. Matt Kinsey: that I bristle at it because I like, they're right and I don't want to do it. Now, some of the time it's not that, some of the time it's just like, just doesn't ⁓ resonate me at all. It's not who I am, it's not how I want to ⁓ operate, frequently and it's funny because the more upset I get about the advice, the more likely it is that I need to listen to it. Tejneet Selhi: you need to take it. yeah, yeah. That, that I think will resonate with many, many entrepreneurs out there. Matt Kinsey: Yeah, it's like, why am I so mad at this advice? It's like, yeah, because they're right. Tejneet Selhi: you Yeah, that's typically the way it goes. But I love that. I love that you are surrounding yourself with industry professionals, because that's important. as well as CEOs from different industries and getting advice from both sets of groups. ⁓ great advice. I'm to change track a little bit just to talk about ⁓ what it follows on. nicely. But obviously, everyone has growing pains, everyone has teething problems right the start of ⁓ setting their business. What would you say was one of the biggest challenges you faced ⁓ when first started IT Fusion? Matt Kinsey: Okay, so IT Fusion was a merger with other companies. So let me talk about MK Tech Group, which was the predecessor that merged in. was an engineer in search of being a business person. All right, and I meet many business owners who are the same way. They're a CPA, they're an attorney, they're mechanic, they're an AC expert, know, air-conditioned expert, and they love the work. and they get frustrated because they don't have the freedom, they feel like other people are telling them what to do and they're like, well, I can do this better. And so they become the artist engineer. And now they're trying to become a business owner and there's a different mindset for the business owner from the artist engineer. So I think that's one of the things I really had to work on because I'm an engineer at heart and I look at problems through that lens and that's great. What I had to do was develop that awareness of a business owner operates from an artist engineer. Because what didn't want was to just be trading time for money and say I was a business owner. I wanted to get leverage. I wanted to get long-term sustainability. I wanted the business to run when I wasn't there. And that takes So I think all of those lessons around, you know, artist engineer, there's some people start a business and they're a business person and they know nothing about the industry. They've got a completely different set of challenges. They've to learn the industry. You know, the artist engineer knows the energy, they the technical aspects of it, but they may not know marketing, they may not know accounting, they may not know how to deal with hiring and firing of people. And so what you do is you, ideally I think, is you supplement your knowledge and your background Tejneet Selhi: Yes. Matt Kinsey: with expertise in areas you don't have it. That's why we exist because our customers don't have IT expertise, they rely on us. I have an HR company we work with. I have a CPA who does our taxes. We have a marketing company we work with, because that's not our expertise. Tejneet Selhi: Yeah, yeah. That again is great advice. identifying and knowing, being honest with yourself about what you don't know and then seeking out ⁓ skillsets elsewhere. ⁓ Matt Kinsey: Okay. Yeah, absolutely. And are some of them like, okay, we're talking about are we going to outsource bookkeeping? our bookkeeper also does some other things, but she's got an attachment to the bookkeeping. It's my wife. Okay. ⁓ Tejneet Selhi: Okay. Yeah. Matt Kinsey: She's had an attachment to work keeping. She's been a treasurer for a Toastmasters district. She's been treasurer for Toastmasters clubs, treasurer for a church. I mean, she likes that so ⁓ there's a sense of fulfillment in doing that role. So sometimes you say, you know what, maybe it would be better to do this, but she's not ready to give that up yet. And so we've been put on with it. And that's the discussion we're having right now. Now, she keeps getting closer to saying, I'm ready to give it up. Tejneet Selhi: Yeah. Matt Kinsey: but she's not there yet and it's not just as my wife, an integral part of the team and I don't want her to feel like something she loves is being taken away from her. ⁓ I think that's another important lesson you gotta learn ⁓ don't fall in love with yourself. That's a big one. Tejneet Selhi: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yes. What do you mean by that? Can we unpack that a little bit? Matt Kinsey: Many business owners are used to being the smartest person in the room. When I on the board of directors at Toastmasters International, ⁓ every person in that room is used to being the smartest person in the room. And now you've got a room of incredibly ⁓ smart and you have to learn to work together. And so if you're going to build a business and not a lifestyle, that's for the rest of this conversation. That's all we'll focus on is that that building of an asset that building of a business that operates when you're not there ⁓ then you You have to get out of your way. You're the person in many cases that is the biggest bottleneck for the organization Because you're holding on to information you're holding on to decision-making authority. ⁓ holding on to control in some way Tejneet Selhi: Yeah. Matt Kinsey: intentionally or not that's preventing people on your team in small ways and sometimes in larger ways doing that. ⁓ we created a decision, we created a delegation framework. I don't think it's completely unique to me, but I remember who told me. ⁓ So if listening to this and you came up with this and told me, thank you, I'm not trying to steal anything from you, I just can't remember who told me. But when I delegate something, I have a conversation with somebody ⁓ and so Tejneet Selhi: Sure. Matt Kinsey: I let them know what their authority is, so not only what's their role, what is it we want to get accomplished, what's your authority? And then we go over various discussions, like this type of decision, I don't even want to know about it. I don't need to know about it, just make it. Here's a decision that I want to know about, but make the decision and just tell me you did it, so I can back you up. Here's a decision that I want to have a conversation with you. Tejneet Selhi: Thank you. Matt Kinsey: before but I'm going leave it up to you at the end of it. And then here's decisions you can't make. You're not authorized to make that. If this happens, you have to come to me and I'll make the decision or we'll make it jointly. But you're not allowed to make that decision on your own. And then people know, yeah, there's still some border of like, does this fall on the side of bringing them in or not? There's still some of that, but there's a lot less of that. Tejneet Selhi: Right, yeah. that's really important. It's creating those clear guidelines about what their responsibility is versus what responsibility isn't. ⁓ yeah, what's important. Matt Kinsey: Yeah. It's like if you go to, the accent I'm assuming you're in the UK, so like if you go to Sandsbury's, okay, and have a return and it's over a certain dollar amount, you have to go to a separate place to do that return. The person who's ringing you up can't do the return because they don't have the authority to do it. Tejneet Selhi: Yes. Yeah. Matt Kinsey: And then the people in that other room, they have a different authority. okay, if it's below this, they can do it. But if it gets above that amount, then a manager has to come in to review it. You know, it's the same type of thing. They know what their role is. They know what they're allowed to do. And what they're trying to do is, is the right spot between giving people authority and holding accountability. I think what it also does is it helps prevent what I call the Mickey Mouse rules. Okay. Tejneet Selhi: Yep. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Matt Kinsey: And that's the rule there. Well, it happened once, so we're going to create this whole rule about it. it may never happen again. When you come into financial controls, probably ⁓ more to let's create the rule. But there's other things. just like, you know what? That's probably never going to happen again. We don't need to go create a new rule about it. But we can create some thought process on how to deal with these things in the issue, in the future. Tejneet Selhi: you Yeah. Absolutely, great advice, great advice. Now we touched on it a little bit. In terms of ⁓ transition to IT Fusion, ⁓ that the moment when you decided to bring in partners? Okay. Matt Kinsey: Okay. Yes, yeah, that I can vision came in from partners from other IT companies who joined in with us. They were solopreneurs, know, individuals who were trading time for money, lifestyle businesses, great people, you know, this is not a criticism of them, but I had the vision of something bigger. They brought skill sets that I needed and they had existing business. So it was something that made sense to me. and I presented it and eventually it made sense to them as well. had 40 % growth last year and ⁓ large part of that was a result of the synergies that we're finding from working together. Tejneet Selhi: And for our audience listening, what were the levers or what was the that made you think, in order to expand, I need to bring on expertise? Matt Kinsey: can't point to one little thing. It was that evolved over time because I'd known both of these gentlemen for a few We'd worked on projects together. We worked well together. know, Lorenzo in particular had some very specific expertise that brings in lot of project work for us. know, Wally is a great networker and and great with business development and relationships with people. So he brought something else in, but wanting to eventually get out of this business. So he was looking for someone to partner with to get, so he could eventually get out of this business. And he's mostly out now. He's still got one in, but he's mostly out. And that was a discussion we had coming up front. it was just all of timing that came together. was like, now's the right time. Tejneet Selhi: nice and I think that's another to having a network and building that network over time because you ⁓ those relationships and so when the time is right to partner you're not starting from ground zero because I think that can sometimes be the scary thing is, oh how do I know I can trust this person? How do I know that they can do what they're saying they can do? Whereas if you've already seen that in action, you already know that they can do it, they can do what they're saying. Yeah. Matt Kinsey: 100 % you know, there's still It doesn't make it a honeymoon You know, it's still you still have to work through and and get to know each other better because now you're you're sharing information that you didn't share before You're you have to be more vulnerable with them than you did before But at least you have a sense of their work ethic. You have a sense of their personality Tejneet Selhi: Mm-hmm. Bye. Yeah. Matt Kinsey: you have a sense of what you like about them and the things that drive you a little nuts. Because you're going to have that with anybody you work with, anybody you have a relationship with, and you're like, I can live with those. I can live with those little things because the entire package is worth it. So I think that's important. If you're going to go into business bed with somebody else, you need to know who they are. Tejneet Selhi: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Matt Kinsey: And you need to know what their expectations are and are your expectations aligned. So we originally had another partner. Expectations were not aligned. he exited within the first year. And that was good for all of ⁓ ⁓ we still get along. ⁓ not really doing business together, but we still get along. ⁓ no real animosity there. The ⁓ weren't aligned. But I think if we had continued on that path, animosity have developed. Tejneet Selhi: Mm-hmm. Right, right, So again, it's knowing when to the decision to, in a way, like you say, exit. ⁓ ties sounds too harsh, ⁓ cut ties from a business perspective, and ⁓ partnership perspective. ⁓ Matt Kinsey: Yeah, and it I remember what marketing ⁓ at the time it said, she ⁓ I ⁓ I remember this quote. goes, if you're laying in bed thinking about somebody and you're not married to them, they've got to go. ⁓ Either either a really they've got to go because they're really bad for you or they've got to go because they're dangerous for you. OK. ⁓ Tejneet Selhi: interesting. ⁓ Yeah. and Matt Kinsey: You're too interested in them and they've got to go or they you know or You're just like they're driving you nuts and you're thinking about it before you go to bed. That's time That is your ultimate signal. They got to go Tejneet Selhi: Yeah, Yeah, that's so interesting. I haven't heard that before. Yeah, yeah, but ⁓ think that's actually pretty sound, what is making me think now? Who do I think about in bed? ⁓ anywho. That's whole different podcast. ⁓ So talk a little bit about industry trends and what you're seeing today. Matt Kinsey: She's very direct. Yeah. Absolutely. So in the IT space in general, so I would say in the overall economic space, global ⁓ issues are legitimate concern for everybody. You look the stress in Southeast Asia, you look at the stress in the Middle East, ⁓ you look different political leaders without naming them ⁓ who ⁓ who let's say, bombastic, okay? ⁓ it creates tension. We've got fighting with Russia and Ukraine. We've got ⁓ fighting the US, ⁓ Israel, ⁓ and other nations into it. We've got tension between China and Taiwan and concerns there. Australia's making some that look very interesting, because they've still got tension with China. ⁓ The entire South, entire, area there in the South China Sea with the Philippines and Indonesia and everybody else with territorial disputes on the water ⁓ with So that's very tense and that people and it creates uncertainty. Cyber criminals prey on that uncertainty. So ⁓ what we're seeing is the attacks are getting more sophisticated, they're getting more directed towards you. and there is not a single business owner who is not a target. Because it's not some person sitting there and saying, okay, I'm going to go after Tejneet's company. It's an automated system going, what can I find out there? a criminal walking down the street, checking car doors and going, ⁓ this one's open. They don't care that it's your car or my car. They don't care whose car it is. So what they're doing is they're saying, What can I get into? What can I find? And what can I get out of that knowledge that I gain and that exposure that I get into their organization? We've ransomware demands were exactly the policy limits. We've seen ransomware demands that were exactly the amount of cash that they had in their bank account, which tells you how far into the system they've gotten. Tejneet Selhi: Scary. and Matt Kinsey: So those types of things tell me that it's just gonna get more more sophisticated. So that's one thing. AI and automation is game changer for us, for everyone in ⁓ my The companies that embrace it, the companies that figure it out in a reasonable are the companies that 10 years from now are still gonna be here. The companies that don't, not gonna say they're all gonna be gone, but a much higher percentage of them will be gone than the ones who do figure it out. Because it is the fastest growing technology in the history of mankind. ⁓ It's producing real value for organizations. Block just laid off a significant portion of their workflow. They're a SaaS company ⁓ because they don't need them anymore. Tejneet Selhi: huge. you Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's happening everywhere. ⁓ Matt Kinsey: Yeah, and you know a year ago we saying you're not going to lose your job. It's just you're going lose your job if somebody knows AI. Well now people are losing their jobs, AI. Tejneet Selhi: being directly replaced, aren't they? In cases, not in all, but in... ⁓ Matt Kinsey: Yeah, and that's one of things like guy who washes cars for a living, he's going to get replaced by AI. ⁓ Software are getting replaced by AI. And so if you want a better reason for people to embrace trades than we've had in years, this is the time because trades people are not going away. Plumbers, mechanics. Tejneet Selhi: Right. this is it. Yeah, fissions, yeah. Matt Kinsey: HVAC technicians, care teams, they're not going away because you can't automate that. Tejneet Selhi: Yep, no, totally. And actually, I somewhere that electricians are probably the most sought after trades people at the moment because of the data centers. ⁓ Matt Kinsey: Yeah, and we rely, that's why we like hardware. Okay, because hardware is not going away. You have to have something to run that that software on. But software developers used to be a super secure field. It is less secure than it's ever been. Even cybersecurity. Now we rely on AI, we can't keep up without it. But you need that human touch in those high risk areas. Law. Tejneet Selhi: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Matt Kinsey: law, is still subject to delusion. still making up case law, especially for those who are in a common law system like the UK, the old British Empire areas. That case law that defines our history and how we make decisions, it still makes things up. But we're seeing tremendous strides in medicine and law with these different versions of the engines. Tejneet Selhi: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it's fascinating. So I'm going to touch on a couple of things that you mentioned just then. ⁓ really want the to hear about some of the services and that IT confusion have. So can we talk a little bit about that and ⁓ do they or can they the two concerns that mentioned? Well, ⁓ yeah, the couple of that you mentioned there. Matt Kinsey: That's where we... So I would say the other area that we're seeing is compliance costs are going way up for companies. So at IT Fusion, we are your IT department. ⁓ do not do software development. ⁓ made a conscious decision not to do that. And don't do cyber forensics work. Those are the people who come in ⁓ after data breach and figure out exactly what happened. Tejneet Selhi: Yes. Matt Kinsey: ⁓ We're on the prevention side. We're trying to stop everything from happening providing the evidence for the cyber forensic specialist to be able to track down exactly what happened. So that's what we're doing. So our level is a fractional chief information security officer or chief security officer. We're going to at a strategic level run an organization's strategy on a fractional level. So rather than spending $250,000, $300,000 at least in the US, I don't know what it is in other countries. US is probably the top market for that right now. Instead of spending a quarter million or more dollars, you're going to spend a fraction of that for a fraction of the time. And that works for lot of mid-size and smaller companies, depending on their risk profile. The second thing we're going to do is we're going to do the compliance. Tejneet Selhi: Yeah. ⁓ Matt Kinsey: Compliance is about what you can prove. It's not about what you do, it's about what you can prove. So we're going to make sure that you've got all the evidence to say, yes, here's our policies, here's our controls, here's evidence. Just like if you've ever been through a financial audit, they're like, what are your controls? Oh, we need two signatures for vouchers over this much. OK, show me the vouchers. It's the same thing. It's like, oh, you require this. Show me you're doing it. OK, you require this. Show me you're doing it. Tejneet Selhi: Thank Yeah. Yeah. Matt Kinsey: So that's the other piece. Then we do the cybersecurity, which is about the prevention. going to protect the most significantly impacted areas, which number one is email. Number two is endpoint. So we're to make sure that those are protected. And we have companies who do application security that we can refer people to. And then we do the day-to-day IT support. So combined, we're going to try to make sure that you're protected. Tejneet Selhi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kinsey: that you're defensible. We use a standard that's based ⁓ ISO 27001. ⁓ the NIST 800 series. It's the National Institute of Standards and Technologies in the US. It's implements ISO standards in the US. Because the US can't just take the international standard. Of course not. Tejneet Selhi: Okay. I'm Matt Kinsey: There's implement, remember it's a standard, it's not an implementation, so NIST is an implementation. And we use the NIST cybersecurity framework, which defines that. we work everything we do, are we trying to detect problems, we're trying to prevent problems, we try to recover from problems, okay? And that's that whole cycle that we make sure that we address all five areas of the NIST cybersecurity framework. Tejneet Selhi: ⁓ And obviously you mentioned your ⁓ of target audiences, small to mid-size, or mid-size to small companies. And then can we talk a little bit about the future ⁓ of, your goals and aims are ⁓ for the Matt Kinsey: Yeah, mean, trying to build, like ⁓ 57 years old. You know, I'm not planning to retire early. I plan to keep working, but I don't want to have to work. Okay, so there's a difference, you know. ⁓ So in an eight to 10 year timeframe before I'm ⁓ like planning to work full time. So, you know, I want to see five to 10 X Tejneet Selhi: You don't look it. Matt Kinsey: growth in that time frame. Okay. You know, we grew 40 % last year. You know, if I grow 40 % for five years, well, that's doubling in two and a half years. Okay. So it's, it's, it's a stretch. It scares me a little bit, but at the same time, I'm like, yeah, we may have to employ different strategies and we've done in the past to grow to that size. We probably will. So that's part of it. Tejneet Selhi: Okay. Matt Kinsey: And part of it is, you we really want to grow the compliance side of the business because no matter what's happening with the technology, compliance is not going to go away. Governments are more and more. I mean, you've got GDPR in ⁓ the EU. Here in the US, we've got ⁓ California. California information. Tejneet Selhi: Europe. Yeah. Matt Kinsey: privacy actors ⁓ new york shield law there's a florida information privacy act industries now are being required the u.s. department of defense has c ⁓ c ⁓ if you're not depending on the level of your company there's different levels but if your company's large and you don't have this certification at that level then you can even did on a contract so they're getting your scene enforcement ⁓ Tejneet Selhi: you Matt Kinsey: what we're seeing primarily this is primarily being driven by cyber insurance companies by commercial insurance companies because they don't want to pay out so they're saying well if you have this policy if you want to get a payout on this policy there's a breach then you have to do these things and so that's actually driving a lot of the compliance work it's not government it's not the individual industry it's the insurance industry that's driving it which they also drove worker you know they've also driven worker safety okay Tejneet Selhi: insurance. Yeah. Matt Kinsey: uh... you know that's we see insurance health insurance companies at least in united states health programs doing benefits for you know counting your steps and tracking your food intake and things like that that you get points and those points in some cases can give you discounts on your health insurance uh... because they're trying to reward positive behavior Tejneet Selhi: Yeah. haven't quite seen it to that level here in Europe ⁓ but I suspect we'll probably head that way. Matt Kinsey: have a very different mindset on privacy than most Americans do. ⁓ I think it's fascinating, here the US at least, it's very fascinating that people don't the government. I think that's pretty universal. ⁓ People don't the government, but they'll give ⁓ every bit information they have to Google and Apple. Tejneet Selhi: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Matt Kinsey: And I'm like, let's just think about this. And all this talk about the profit incentive and with capitalism and socialism social democracy and communism and all these different isms out there. But human is pretty consistent, I would say. Tejneet Selhi: Yeah. Well, look, I think we in the UK, where we tend to go the way of the US, we're just a little bit behind, to be completely honest. But do agree in terms of our level of trust in ⁓ in allowing our data to be used everywhere, we're a little bit more guarded from that perspective. ⁓ Matt Kinsey: Right. Yeah, there's a saying that I always remember and it's like if the product, if the service is free, you are the product that's being sold. Tejneet Selhi: Yeah. Yes, that's so true. That's so true. ⁓ couldn't have put that better myself. Yeah. a interesting time that we're all navigating, to be honest, with regards to, because you're almost a prisoner of devices to an extent. ⁓ Matt Kinsey: Absolutely. for many people and it's funny because You know, I've done some generational studies and my generation, is Generation X, is actually worse than some of the young kids with it. ⁓ yeah. Yes, because we don't grow up with the awareness of it. ⁓ We learn to trust and be self-sufficient, at least in the US, Gen X. We're known as the latchkey kids. Tejneet Selhi: really? In terms of giving your data out or... Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. Matt Kinsey: You know, we came home when the streetlights came on. don't know if that was a thing in the UK, but that was when you had to be home, was when the streetlights came on. I mean, we would leave, I would leave the house on a Saturday morning, you know, at seven thirty eight o'clock in the morning and I wouldn't get home until the streetlights came on. And my parents had no idea where I was. You know, and that was normal. You know, so we were we were we were taught to be self-sufficient and in a way that that Tejneet Selhi: Okay. Yeah. Matt Kinsey: perhaps some of younger generations haven't been taught. But proliferation of always connected, Gen X is they tend to be one of the hardest working groups because that was an expectation. You work hard and work-life balance, which I'm writing a book about, why that's a bad concept, but the goals of work-life balance. Gen X define themselves by their career. Tejneet Selhi: ⁓ interesting. We'll have to have you back on the podcast when you release the book, because it sounds like a fascinating read. Matt Kinsey: Yeah, that's gonna be fun. Probably about a month out more or less. Tejneet Selhi: ⁓ not too far, not too far. Matt Kinsey: Yeah, and it's not a technology book. This is about the framework of work-life balance and why for many people, at least in Western culture, it a harmful framework to try to achieve. Not the goals, but the framework itself. Tejneet Selhi: ⁓ you... We're gonna have to unpack that a little bit more later down the line. I'm looking forward to reading the book when it comes out. Please do, please do. It's been a real pleasure speaking with you today. We didn't even get too much time to talk about Toastmasters. So would you like to talk a little bit about how Toastmasters has helped you in your sort of business? Matt Kinsey: Absolutely. Yeah, I'll be glad to let you know. Yeah. Yeah, because that's actually part of where the book came from because somebody asked me one day, know, because I spent seven years on the board of directors and Toastmasters a lot of time and hours and they were like, well, if you had all spent all this time with Toastmasters and Scouting both, would your be further along? And I almost I just almost out. Well, yeah, of course it would. And I stopped myself. I'm like, yeah, I don't know. Because I was in a business meeting last week. Tejneet Selhi: Hmm. Matt Kinsey: and something I learned to do in Toastmasters was critical I got the deal. I was dealing with this business problem and something that I did while we were working with Toastmasters, which is a much larger organization than my organization, how we with that ⁓ informed me how I could address it in my business. So maybe I wouldn't be as far along. And I realized ⁓ there's this false dichotomy between work and life. You know, there's life. And work is a part of that, just like everything else. ⁓ you know, I joined Toast. ⁓ been speaking in front of groups for a long time. ⁓ I didn't join, like many people joined Toastmasters to get better at speaking. That wasn't what drove me in. What drove me in was to get better at evaluating, because we provide evaluation in a positive and supportive way. And that's just not what I grew up with. Okay, I'm not saying my parents weren't supportive, but feedback was corrective. Okay, and I'm not scarred, I'm not, this is not a therapy session, I'm not emotionally scarred by it, but feedback was primarily corrective. And that's just what I was used to. So when I went into the workplace, that's what I thought feedback was. And it created friction from people I was giving feedback to, but it also created friction from people I was receiving positive feedback from. Tejneet Selhi: I see, okay. Okay. Yeah. Matt Kinsey: because I was very dismissive of it. And I wasn't accepting it. I was like, that's no big deal, know, any whatever. And I had someone get very angry with me about it. Very angry. And I realized feedbacks as much about the person giving it. So I knew I had to get better at both of those things. And Toastmasters helped that. And then the type of person when I join an organization, I either get deeply involved or I leave. Okay, I'm ⁓ a hanger on. Tejneet Selhi: right. ⁓ Okay. Matt Kinsey: I'm not going to just be hanging on to the organization. I'm either going to get involved or I'm going go find something else because doing is very important to me. I'm a high D on a disc, so I like to get things done. And so I got involved with Toastmasters, moved into district leadership, fell in love on watching the impact it had on other people with their individual journeys by providing a safe space for them to work on leadership, to work on communication. And so that's what I did. And then eventually I was fortunate enough to be elected to the board of directors and then to the executive committee and I served as international president and got to travel to many places in the world I probably never would have gotten to. You know, like Tanzania and Dubai and Qatar and Turkey, know, places that probably weren't on my list to go to and just had the most amazing time while doing very important work for the organization helping Tejneet Selhi: Yeah. Matt Kinsey: being on the executive committee during the entire time of the pandemic and watching our organization shrink and then start to grow again and to deal with being in person to being online in a matter of days. And then now moving back to more and more in person, but still a much more significant ⁓ online portion the organization. So I'm still involved them, but if you want to Tejneet Selhi: ⁓ I'm- Matt Kinsey: your communication skills, if you want to develop your leadership skills in a safe space where you're not going to be judged, where there's not ⁓ significant consequence. Like if you mess up a presentation at work, you get in trouble, you might lose the sale. You mess up a presentation at Toastmasters, we're going to say, hey, Tashneet, ⁓ you this really well, but here's some things we want you to work on. And you're like, ⁓ great. Even though know it wasn't the best I could have done, Tejneet Selhi: Yep. Matt Kinsey: but you're not going to lose the sale over it, you're not going lose your job over it, you're going to get better by getting up and doing it again. Tejneet Selhi: and Yeah. And that's so important for development. Having that constructive, feedback is imperative, absolutely imperative. And ⁓ yeah, ⁓ off back of this. I'm gonna definitely check out Toastmasters, because I know that there's a few in and around ⁓ the London where I'm based. ⁓ Matt Kinsey: Correct. Yeah. There's a lot in the London area. There's a lot. Yeah, if you go to toastmasters.org, find a club, put your postal code in, and it will tell you which ones are in your area. Tejneet Selhi: Yeah. Amazing. Well, hope others that are watching our podcast today will join me. Yeah. ⁓ been such a pleasure to have you on the podcast. I want to just ask you one last question, if I may. ⁓ that's right, because you mentioned that you want to grow the business ⁓ in the next 10 years. What you... Matt Kinsey: I DJ. Of course. Tejneet Selhi: And that's a big target. What are some of the things that you're implementing to help you achieve that? Matt Kinsey: one is questioning everything we're doing in positive way because when I talk to people who've doubled their business from where I'm at now, who went from where I am to two times and I asked them what changed, their typical response is everything. Everything. ⁓ Our looks our customers look different, our processes look different, our techniques look different, has changed. Now part of it is we're an industry that's going to Tejneet Selhi: not much work involved then. ⁓ Matt Kinsey: that enhances that change. you, you ⁓ remember when I hit a level in the company and I was talking to somebody and she goes, okay, now you have to get serious or you're not going to grow. She goes, because you can get away with stuff at that size business that you can't get away with where you're going now. And it's the same thing. Anytime you, ⁓ move up in those, in stratus of businesses, what got you here will inform you but it won't get you to the next level because if it would have you'd already be there. Tejneet Selhi: Yeah. Matt Kinsey: That's way I look at it. number one. Number we've identified the things we need to fix and they top priorities, things that we've put off. I mean, we've been referral based for years and we've grown tremendously through referrals. 95 % of our business is referral based. That's not going to get us to where I want to go. we have to... find and master a marketing strategy that's going to work for us and we're working on that. So I think that's probably the biggest thing that's drawing us back then ⁓ at our processes, looking at our documentation, having much knowledge and too few hands. How do ⁓ we that knowledge out? How do we capture that knowledge? How do we make sure that our team is getting the ongoing training they need? So all of these are questions that that I ask as the managing director of the organization on a regular basis. How do we get better? going to, know, what levers can we pull that are going to make the biggest difference? ⁓ if I've got a letter that can 2X me and I've got a letter that can, ⁓ know, ⁓ me, but it costs, but it takes three times the workload, ⁓ do the 10X, okay? During the pandemic somebody's, said something, well, that's a good idea. And I remember very clearly, and I was president, I was on the executive committee at time, I said, well, we don't need good ideas right now, we need great ideas. Because I can't chase good ideas, because where, know, Toastmasters, many associations did, had suffered membership loss during the pandemic. ⁓ you know, we have to shore up, that means we need great ideas, not good ideas. We don't... Tejneet Selhi: Mm-hmm. Yep. Matt Kinsey: We don't have time and resources to pursue the good ideas. And I think business owners do that time. People will bring, trade shows. my goodness. Trade shows. You go to trade show and everyone's, shiny objects. Shiny objects. Okay, which one's gonna make a difference to your business, to your practice? Which one's really gonna make a difference? ⁓ And ⁓ score so when you get back, you can go, these are the three companies, the two companies, the one company, or no companies that you want to talk to. It's okay to go to Trade Show and tell everybody no. Tejneet Selhi: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because I think when you go to a trade show, you almost get sucked in a little bit, and there's excitement and the birds and yeah. Matt Kinsey: Thank They're They're ⁓ Tejneet Selhi: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Matt Kinsey: do want the time to spend with all five of these, six of these companies? So just getting direct and focused I think that's what I'm really trying to get is ⁓ focusing in on levers that I can pull to make a significant difference. And then the smaller ⁓ levels I have leave to other people on the team. The level I'm at, got to be Tejneet Selhi: you Matt Kinsey: I gotta be pulling the big levers, not the small ones. Tejneet Selhi: Yeah, makes complete sense, makes complete sense. Well look, this has been a really fascinating conversation and really appreciate your time today. And ⁓ the audience have got as much from this conversation as I have. And yeah, it's ⁓ been really, enlightening. And that's all for this episode of the Entrepreneur Odyssey. ⁓ Thank so much for joining us.