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Disruptive Conversations with Ben Crump - The Potter’s House of Dallas · THE WORLD'S BEST PREACHER

0:06
Speaker 1: Some of the problems that we've seen act out on
0:09
Speaker 1: the streets with a quorum of police officers who have
0:13
Speaker 1: resulted to brutality. Do you think that qualified immunity is
0:18
Speaker 1: a deterrent to justice? It reminds me of what Martin
0:21
Speaker 1: Luther King said in the Letter from the Birmingham Jail,
0:24
Speaker 1: Bishop Jakes, when he said, just because they tell us
0:27
Speaker 1: it's legal, that doesn't make it right. And all these
0:31
Speaker 1: times when they shot young black boys and brown brown
0:35
Speaker 1: boys in the back running away and said, well, we
0:39
Speaker 1: felt and feared our lives.
0:41
Speaker 2: It's asinine.
0:42
Speaker 1: How much weight does public opinion have in swaying a
0:48
Speaker 1: court case today as opposed to say, thirty years ago.
0:52
Speaker 2: I remember Justice Ruth Bade Againsburg telling the Federal Appellate
0:59
Speaker 2: Court and a famous case that she argued. She says that,
1:04
Speaker 2: you know, the public has already rendered a verdict on
1:08
Speaker 2: this issue. We're just here trying to find out. How
1:12
Speaker 2: long is it going to take for the court to
1:14
Speaker 2: catch up, Miss Jakes. I often think what makes leaders
1:19
Speaker 2: great are being like Martin Luther King, the ability to
1:23
Speaker 2: try to bring people together. It is very easy to
1:29
Speaker 2: keep us separated or find things that you know have
1:33
Speaker 2: us attack one another. The great leaders can bring people together.
1:44
Speaker 1: Hello everyone, I'm vissing TD Jenson. I'm so excited to
1:47
Speaker 1: have a disruptive conversation with the one and only Attorney
1:52
Speaker 1: Ben Crump, whose career is legendary. I don't know if
1:57
Speaker 1: you don't know who he is, you must be living
1:59
Speaker 1: up under rock. We're grateful to have you. Welcome, Attorney Crump.
2:04
Speaker 1: Thank you for being here.
2:06
Speaker 2: Thank you, Bishop Jenkeson, Thank you for always being a
2:11
Speaker 2: spiritual nof stoff. For me, it matters, especially when you're
2:17
Speaker 2: fighting for marginalized people to have a voice.
2:21
Speaker 1: So recently, I have written this book, Disruptive Thinking, and
2:25
Speaker 1: it really deals with the fact that the people who
2:28
Speaker 1: have the greatest impact are often people who don't follow
2:32
Speaker 1: the norms, that they get outside of the lines, that
2:36
Speaker 1: they do whatever they have to do in order to
2:38
Speaker 1: have impact. And your career and my inestimation epitomize the
2:43
Speaker 1: fact that you're a disruptive thinker and you've kind of
2:45
Speaker 1: led the pact rather than followed.
2:49
Speaker 2: With the group.
2:50
Speaker 1: I want to ask you a series of questions about
2:52
Speaker 1: disruptive thinking. During the height of George Floyd Trayvon Martin
2:59
Speaker 1: movements were there every moments or times that you you
3:05
Speaker 1: kind of doubt it, is this going to turn out okay?
3:08
Speaker 1: And what do you tell yourself as a disruptor to
3:12
Speaker 1: keep on going?
3:14
Speaker 2: You know, Bishop there oftentimes when you are questioned by others,
3:21
Speaker 2: And I think the true character of leadership is knowing
3:25
Speaker 2: what your purpose is for why you're doing things, even
3:29
Speaker 2: if others don't understand it. My grandmother taught me that
3:36
Speaker 2: when you do something, you don't do it for the
3:40
Speaker 2: result of it. She said, you do it because it
3:43
Speaker 2: was the right thing to do. And my Fraternity of
3:47
Speaker 2: Makings if I taught me when I got to college
3:50
Speaker 2: that we treat those two impostors, triumph and disaster just
3:56
Speaker 2: the same because you never did it for the result.
4:00
Speaker 2: Did it because it was the right thing to do.
4:02
Speaker 2: And you have to be able to look in the
4:05
Speaker 2: mirror at the end of the day and say, God,
4:09
Speaker 2: I tried to do the right thing. And in our
4:12
Speaker 2: heart of hearts, we all know what the right thing
4:14
Speaker 2: to do is. It's just a question whether or not
4:18
Speaker 2: we have the courage to do it. And so I
4:21
Speaker 2: turned to people like you and my faith leaders and say, God,
4:28
Speaker 2: we're stepping out on faith to do the right thing,
4:30
Speaker 2: protect me from my enemies and my naysays. But I
4:34
Speaker 2: know in my heart we are trying to follow your
4:37
Speaker 2: purpose on our lives.
4:39
Speaker 1: You know, thank you for that. I'm honored to serving
4:43
Speaker 1: that capacity. I wanted to. I've never gotten a chance
4:47
Speaker 1: to ask you this. When you start dealing with some
4:50
Speaker 1: of the problems that we've seen act out on the
4:53
Speaker 1: streets with a quorum of police officers who have resulted
4:59
Speaker 1: to brutality to some that's a degree that you're called in.
5:04
Speaker 1: Do you think that qualified immunity is a deterrent to justice.
5:09
Speaker 1: I think qualified immunity is a complete impediment to justice.
5:14
Speaker 1: Bishop Jakes, think about what the message they're sending with
5:21
Speaker 1: qualified immunity that a law enforcement officer only has to
5:26
Speaker 1: come up with a subjective fear, not an objective fear,
5:31
Speaker 1: not something that everybody can look at and say, well,
5:35
Speaker 1: we think that's reasonable. No, as long as he says
5:39
Speaker 1: or she says I felt in fear of my life,
5:42
Speaker 1: they say that's okay. You can kill the person, oftentimes
5:48
Speaker 1: a person of color and be able to say there's
5:53
Speaker 1: nothing going to happen to me. And it reminds me
5:57
Speaker 1: of what Martin Luther King said in the letter from
5:59
Speaker 1: the Burmiham Jail, Bishop Jakes, when he said, just because
6:03
Speaker 1: they tell us it's legal, that doesn't make it right.
6:07
Speaker 1: And all these times when they shot young black.
6:10
Speaker 2: Boys and bleu on brown boys in the back running
6:14
Speaker 2: away and said, well, we felt and fear of our lives,
6:17
Speaker 2: it's asinine. And so for the United States Supreme Court
6:21
Speaker 2: to say that it is legal, then we just have
6:25
Speaker 2: to remember, like doctor King said, they said everything Hitler
6:30
Speaker 2: did to the Jews in Germany was legal, But like
6:33
Speaker 2: in the letter, he said, that's not right. The Supreme
6:36
Speaker 2: Court said that slavery was legal, but that didn't make
6:41
Speaker 2: it right. They said segregation was legal, but that didn't
6:45
Speaker 2: make it right. So when they tell us it's legal
6:50
Speaker 2: for how they're killing our people, we have to say
6:54
Speaker 2: that doesn't make it right. We have to be disruptive. Earlier,
6:59
Speaker 2: you were talking before.
7:00
Speaker 1: We started the interview about just leaving the White House
7:04
Speaker 1: as you were to vindicate a white victim. Can you
7:09
Speaker 1: just touch on that briefly about that, because so many
7:12
Speaker 1: times you are labeled as being an advocate for black people,
7:15
Speaker 1: and we're glad to have you, but I think you're
7:18
Speaker 1: more of an advocate for justice. Let's talk about.
7:20
Speaker 2: That absolutely, and I'll give you two examples. This most
7:26
Speaker 2: recent example was a young black woman who were killed
7:29
Speaker 2: by other black people in Mexico and it was captured
7:35
Speaker 2: on video video that went viral. Her name was Shanquilla
7:40
Speaker 2: Robinson from Charlotte, North Carolina, a beautiful young black lady.
7:45
Speaker 2: Everybody marveled about what a wonderful young lady she was.
7:50
Speaker 2: But she's seen naked on this video being beaten by
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Speaker 2: another person and it's a savage beating and they're on
8:01
Speaker 2: the video. They say, aren't you even going to fight back?
8:03
Speaker 2: And she says no, and that beating continues. She ends
8:08
Speaker 2: up dead in Mexico. The Mexican officials, after the video
8:13
Speaker 2: becomes viral, Bishop Jake State issue a warrant for the
8:18
Speaker 2: arrest of the person seen beaten on the video because
8:21
Speaker 2: they say her neck is broken and that is the
8:24
Speaker 2: cause of death. Well, the citizens are all US citizens.
8:29
Speaker 2: They're in Charlotte, North Carolina, and the FBI says they're
8:35
Speaker 2: not going to brain charges there's not enough evidence. And
8:39
Speaker 2: so it's shocking to many in our community that the
8:43
Speaker 2: State Department of Nobody is working to extradite these individuals
8:49
Speaker 2: who kill this young lady to Mexico so they can
8:53
Speaker 2: stand trial for the conduct that we've seen perpetrated on
8:57
Speaker 2: that video. So we went to the White House and
9:00
Speaker 2: we're saying to everybody at the White House that we
9:04
Speaker 2: know there's a protocol for when an American citizen is
9:08
Speaker 2: killed in another country that you can work with that
9:12
Speaker 2: government and extradite to kill us back. You've done it
9:16
Speaker 2: for white citizens, and we want to make sure that
9:19
Speaker 2: this black woman gets the same equal treatment that you
9:24
Speaker 2: would afford to any other citizen. Because I always try
9:28
Speaker 2: to hold a mirror to America's face, and I don't
9:32
Speaker 2: even know if this is been disrupted, but I say,
9:35
Speaker 2: just look in the mirror and acknowledge the hypocrisy, acknowledge
9:40
Speaker 2: the double standards when it comes people of color versus
9:45
Speaker 2: what you have done for other citizens who are a Caucasian.
9:49
Speaker 2: We're not asking for anything extraordinary. We're not asking for
9:53
Speaker 2: anything special. All we want is equal justice to for
9:56
Speaker 2: our loved ones. That's great statement. Let's go back for
10:01
Speaker 2: a minute to.
10:03
Speaker 1: The to the systemic issues that impede justice for happening
10:11
Speaker 1: for victims. When you look at police unions. And I'm
10:15
Speaker 1: not against unions, you know, retirement benefits rights and that
10:19
Speaker 1: sort of thing, job of scales being increased, all the
10:23
Speaker 1: things that unions normally do. Do some of the unions
10:27
Speaker 1: go cross the line and get involved in criminal cases
10:31
Speaker 1: and elected officials that would district attorneys and so forth
10:36
Speaker 1: and so on, And tell me what you're really up
10:38
Speaker 1: against and how do you disrupt something that has been
10:42
Speaker 1: baked into the culture of the legal system.
10:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that is the question Bishop. Before I do that,
10:51
Speaker 2: I did want to just quickly say where we represented
10:56
Speaker 2: a white family whose son was killed by police and
10:59
Speaker 2: be beat Arkansas, and his name was Devin and it
11:05
Speaker 2: was tragic, but we went and advocated for him and
11:09
Speaker 2: Bishop Jakes. We had our good friend Reverend our Shopton
11:13
Speaker 2: did the eulogy and when we came it makes me
11:18
Speaker 2: smile when I think of it. They had a lot
11:21
Speaker 2: of trucks that had a blank space on the back
11:23
Speaker 2: of the bumper stickers where they had removed the Confederate flags.
11:29
Speaker 2: Had me and my legal team and Revende I come
11:33
Speaker 2: in to preach the eulogy at the local high school
11:36
Speaker 2: of this wonderful young man who had been shot unstly
11:40
Speaker 2: by the police. But it showed to me that everybody
11:45
Speaker 2: wants justice for their loved ones when they're killed unjustly,
11:49
Speaker 2: and that we try to do it without seeing color,
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Speaker 2: but about seeing justice, I mean in just against anybody
12:03
Speaker 2: is unfair. And so that's what God teaches me to
12:08
Speaker 2: do with this blessing of legal education that He's bestowed
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Speaker 2: me with, go out and fight injustice. And so that's
12:16
Speaker 2: what we try to do. And to answer your question,
12:19
Speaker 2: Bishop Jakes, about police unions and the fact that it
12:23
Speaker 2: seems to be at times there is nothing that they
12:30
Speaker 2: will condemn police officers for. I don't care how much
12:36
Speaker 2: visual evidence we have, like when you see a George
12:41
Speaker 2: Floyd being tortured to death with a knee on his neck.
12:45
Speaker 2: The fact that they try to go out and defend
12:48
Speaker 2: that type of conduct it is indefensible, but yet they
12:54
Speaker 2: will do it, and they will then try to attack
12:57
Speaker 2: us for speaking truth. They would literallys yeah, the unions,
13:05
Speaker 2: they will come out and attack us for trying to
13:10
Speaker 2: say that this police officer went beyond the line, this
13:14
Speaker 2: police officer should be held accountable for what he did.
13:19
Speaker 2: And oftentimes, Bishop Jakes, I mean, we get so many
13:24
Speaker 2: calls that we don't even accept the cases because we
13:30
Speaker 2: know in the United States of America, when the police
13:34
Speaker 2: kills minority that unless you got objective evidence, they're gonna
13:43
Speaker 2: take the police narrative as the gospel. And you see
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Speaker 2: that on every occasion practically, well, whatever the police said
13:53
Speaker 2: happen is the narrative until we can show like entire
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Speaker 2: Nickels in Memphis, Tennessee, where the video they beat him
14:04
Speaker 2: to death, and then and only then do you get
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Speaker 2: them to back up. But when his case is like
14:11
Speaker 2: George Floyd or Alton Sterling, a fourteen year old timere
14:17
Speaker 2: rice or Pamela Turner in Houston, Texas, or a Tianna
14:22
Speaker 2: Jefferson who was babysitting her nephew and got shot through
14:26
Speaker 2: the window by the police they're in the Greater Dallas,
14:30
Speaker 2: Texas area. Or if it's Eric Gardner being choked on
14:35
Speaker 2: the streets of New York, if it's Stefan Clark being
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Speaker 2: shot in his grandmother's backyard, if it's eas L four
14:44
Speaker 2: having a mental health crisis out on the freeway in
14:48
Speaker 2: Los Angeles, California, if it is a young woman named
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Speaker 2: Brianna Grier that is having a mental health crisis, and
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Speaker 2: they don't shut the back of the police car, and
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Speaker 2: she falls out of the back of the police car
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Speaker 2: and cracks her skuld and dies. And then they try
15:09
Speaker 2: to claim that this one hundred and twenty pounds young
15:14
Speaker 2: black woman, a mother of twin girls who were two
15:17
Speaker 2: years old at a time, had superhuman strength. They kick
15:22
Speaker 2: open the back door of the police car. I mean,
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Speaker 2: the union and all these cases back to police. When
15:29
Speaker 2: you start scratching your head and you start challenging them,
15:33
Speaker 2: you start being disrupted to just say this is outlandish
15:38
Speaker 2: what you're trying to tell this family and the community
15:41
Speaker 2: about how it is justified what happened to cause this
15:46
Speaker 2: young person from being taken from the face of this
15:49
Speaker 2: earth far too soon. And that's why I continue to
15:53
Speaker 2: try every day to say, God help me to try
15:59
Speaker 2: to make a better world for all of our children.
16:03
Speaker 2: I'm not just saying make a better world for little
16:05
Speaker 2: black children, but we want to make a better world
16:08
Speaker 2: for all our children. Better America would have an equal
16:11
Speaker 2: opportunity at the American promise of life and liberty and
16:16
Speaker 2: the pursuit of happiness.
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Speaker 1: You know, you have been called so many things, so
16:23
Speaker 1: many terms of endearment. But one of them that stands
16:26
Speaker 1: out to me is Black America's Attorney General. And there
16:31
Speaker 1: are a lot of civil suit attorneys who are fighting
16:36
Speaker 1: for some sort of retribution, some sort of impactful retribution
16:43
Speaker 1: for the families who have gone through that litany of things,
16:46
Speaker 1: that litany of names that you just listed, and all
16:48
Speaker 1: of the things that they've had to face. But some
16:51
Speaker 1: kind of way, there's something unique about you and your
16:55
Speaker 1: brand and your ability and your way of going about things.
17:00
Speaker 1: You do. You know what that is? Is Is it
17:04
Speaker 1: the fact that you go public? Is it the fact
17:07
Speaker 1: that you're speaking out through media outlets in a way
17:11
Speaker 1: that other civil attorneys are not.
17:15
Speaker 2: You know, Bishop, I believe that God chooses us all,
17:21
Speaker 2: and I give him all the glory for whatever accolades
17:25
Speaker 2: I have received. I know when they did the time
17:31
Speaker 2: most influencia, and I was surprised to be on the
17:35
Speaker 2: list because I do think there are many great civil
17:40
Speaker 2: rights attorneys and social justice warriors out there, and I
17:44
Speaker 2: never consider myself any better or greater than any of them.
17:49
Speaker 2: And whatever victories we sustain or a claim we get,
17:56
Speaker 2: I just counted that God is order steps and our
18:01
Speaker 2: destiny to be able to allow us to do even
18:05
Speaker 2: more for His calling on our lives. And I think
18:09
Speaker 2: so often about coming from a little town called Lumbington,
18:13
Speaker 2: North Carolina, little country town, and I think about the
18:18
Speaker 2: biblical reference of how God chose David. You know that
18:25
Speaker 2: He intentionally chose people who others will consider the least
18:31
Speaker 2: of these to use for his glory. And I always
18:35
Speaker 2: think about, whether I'm arguing in the Supreme Court or
18:38
Speaker 2: in the court of public opinion or at the United Nations,
18:43
Speaker 2: that we are doing this because God has chosen us
18:47
Speaker 2: and blessed us with this education, in these resources to
18:52
Speaker 2: be able to go give a voice to the voiceless.
18:55
Speaker 2: And I think about what our ancestors sacrifice for us
18:59
Speaker 2: to have the voices, and I think, shame on me
19:02
Speaker 2: if I don't use this influence to help others. And
19:08
Speaker 2: oftentimes Harry Belafonte said this to I and Jamie Fox
19:12
Speaker 2: when we were with Trayvon Martin in two thy thirteen
19:17
Speaker 2: at the NAACP Image of Wars. He said, what good
19:21
Speaker 2: is it having influence if you don't use it when
19:25
Speaker 2: it matters most? And I never forgot that Bishop TD Jakes,
19:29
Speaker 2: we got this influence and we got to use it
19:31
Speaker 2: when our people need it most. I mean, what good
19:35
Speaker 2: is it if you don't use it when somebody has
19:39
Speaker 2: nowhere else to turn Trayvon Martin, I mean, it became
19:45
Speaker 2: the number one news story in the world, and that's
19:47
Speaker 2: because I believe I stepped out on faith. I had
19:51
Speaker 2: no idea that God was gonna make Trayvone name reverberate
19:55
Speaker 2: around the world. You step out on faith and God
19:59
Speaker 2: takes over from there. And every case I've ever took
20:04
Speaker 2: on and been successful, it was because I was stepping
20:08
Speaker 2: out on face saying God, you said, if I do
20:10
Speaker 2: the right thing, you will help me fight these battles.
20:14
Speaker 2: And He has never failed me. Yet he never has.
20:18
Speaker 2: You know, I want to get as much out of
20:21
Speaker 2: the time I had with you as that can. You
20:23
Speaker 2: mentioned when you were talking about the court of public opinion,
20:27
Speaker 2: how much weight does public opinion have in swaying a
20:32
Speaker 2: court case today as opposed to say, thirty years ago. Well,
20:37
Speaker 2: it is great. The court of public opinion. I think
20:42
Speaker 2: many times Bishop Jakes is just as impactful as the
20:48
Speaker 2: court of law, and sometimes even more, because the court
20:51
Speaker 2: of public opinion can impact what happened in the court
20:57
Speaker 2: of law. I remember yess Ruth bade Againsburg telling the
21:03
Speaker 2: Federal Appellate Court and a famous case that she argued.
21:08
Speaker 2: She said that, you know, the world has already, or
21:13
Speaker 2: the public has already rendered a verdict on this issue.
21:18
Speaker 2: We're just here trying to find out how long is
21:21
Speaker 2: it going to take for the court to catch up.
21:24
Speaker 2: And that is true so often when you think about
21:27
Speaker 2: the history of civil rights, when you think about the
21:30
Speaker 2: history of women's rights, you know, the society had already
21:35
Speaker 2: declared what their verdict was going to be on whether
21:39
Speaker 2: the black people were equal to white people. But it
21:45
Speaker 2: took Thurgood Marshall arguing Brown versus the Board of Education
21:51
Speaker 2: before the court is finally declared that separate but equal
21:57
Speaker 2: was inherently an constitutional and the same with the great
22:02
Speaker 2: arguments made by Ruth Bader Ginsburg and saying that women
22:07
Speaker 2: were equal to men. The courts did not apply that
22:12
Speaker 2: belief on record as law until the late nineteen sixties
22:18
Speaker 2: in the early seventies, and so oftentimes it is the
22:22
Speaker 2: court of public opinion, And is why I'm going out
22:24
Speaker 2: there saying that Trayvon martin life mattered when it was
22:29
Speaker 2: not popular to be able to say that young black
22:33
Speaker 2: kids mattered. It was almost unheard of for Trayvine to
22:40
Speaker 2: be on a young black kid who was killed, to
22:43
Speaker 2: be on the cover of People magazine, for the President
22:46
Speaker 2: of the United States to talk about the killing of
22:49
Speaker 2: a young black child in the rose garden of the
22:52
Speaker 2: White House. For what was it yahoo to say that
22:58
Speaker 2: Trayvon Martin was the biggest news story in the world
23:01
Speaker 2: in twenty twelve. That was unheard of. But it is
23:07
Speaker 2: only unheard of and unpopular until we go out and
23:13
Speaker 2: influence the court of public opinion to say that we're
23:16
Speaker 2: better than this. And that's what I always try to
23:20
Speaker 2: appeal to. And I learned that from Trayvon Martin, that
23:24
Speaker 2: we have to show America, Suburbia, America, and every other
23:29
Speaker 2: part of America that we love our children just like
23:34
Speaker 2: you love your children. And when Trayvon's parents, who Bishop
23:38
Speaker 2: you one of the first people to host us at
23:40
Speaker 2: your church when they started their foundation. But Trayvon's mother
23:45
Speaker 2: and father tried to do everything that every other parent,
23:49
Speaker 2: whether white or black, tries to do in America, and
23:53
Speaker 2: that has exposed them to different cultures and different experiences.
23:59
Speaker 2: And so I had those pictures of him on Broadway
24:04
Speaker 2: at the Lion King. We had those pictures of them
24:07
Speaker 2: going skinned, We had those pictures of them horseback riding,
24:11
Speaker 2: and I was saying to White America, you do all
24:14
Speaker 2: these things with your children too, And TREYVW. Was no
24:18
Speaker 2: different from any other seventeen year old child. Give him
24:22
Speaker 2: the benefit of consideration that you would want people to
24:25
Speaker 2: give to your child.
24:27
Speaker 1: You know as well as I do that in order
24:31
Speaker 1: to get things done, you have to work with people
24:35
Speaker 1: that are very different, that have different views sometimes that
24:38
Speaker 1: go against the grain. In my book, I call them
24:42
Speaker 1: disruptive alliances. In order to get the outcome that you want,
24:46
Speaker 1: you to have to hook couple people sometimes that are
24:48
Speaker 1: unlikely betfellows in order to move theirgeender forward to get
24:52
Speaker 1: to where you're trying to go. Can you give us
24:55
Speaker 1: just one instance it pops up in your mind where
24:58
Speaker 1: you had to cross the line of work with somebody
25:00
Speaker 1: you normally wouldn't work with in order to get the
25:03
Speaker 1: result that you wanted.
25:05
Speaker 2: Several several times, mister Jakes, I often think what makes
25:11
Speaker 2: leaders great are being like Martin Luther King, the ability
25:16
Speaker 2: to try to bring people together. It is very easy
25:21
Speaker 2: to keep us separated or find things that you know,
25:26
Speaker 2: have us attack one another. The great leaders can bring
25:30
Speaker 2: people together, and so I always try to endeavor to
25:36
Speaker 2: find the greatness even in what I'm doing, to try
25:40
Speaker 2: to bring people together. And so we had instances I'm
25:44
Speaker 2: based in Florida when Governor Jail Bush where even before
25:49
Speaker 2: Trayvon Martin, a fourteen year old kid named Martin le
25:53
Speaker 2: Anderson got beat up in a boot camp on camera.
25:56
Speaker 2: It was before we had social media and the Internet
25:58
Speaker 2: was just taken off. But we had the students from
26:01
Speaker 2: Florida and m University and Bethune Cookman College marching on
26:05
Speaker 2: the capitol about what we saw murder on TV. And
26:10
Speaker 2: it was funny that Jeb Bush, President George Bush's son,
26:15
Speaker 2: and I became allies and getting justice for that young
26:21
Speaker 2: black boys family, at least on the civil side. And
26:24
Speaker 2: what it led to me understanding, if you're going to
26:29
Speaker 2: get justice, you can't do it in a vacuum. You
26:35
Speaker 2: gotta be able to convince people that it's the right
26:39
Speaker 2: thing to do. And so in every city and every
26:42
Speaker 2: time we go in, whether it's Breonna Taylor and Louisville, Kentucky,
26:45
Speaker 2: George Floyd In Minneapolis, am Aubrey and Brunswick, Georgia, Tyrie, Nicholson,
26:52
Speaker 2: Memphis and all these cities. I am talking to the leaderships,
26:57
Speaker 2: and a lot of them are conservetive leadership at times,
27:02
Speaker 2: and I'm telling them why this is something good for
27:08
Speaker 2: your city and the family, but all of America. And
27:13
Speaker 2: so we're trying to convince them oftentimes that hold these
27:18
Speaker 2: police accountable. And you can make your city be safer
27:22
Speaker 2: because you're building trust with communities of color that equal
27:28
Speaker 2: justice is possible for all of us. And you can
27:32
Speaker 2: be the hero in this, or you can be the
27:35
Speaker 2: person that continues to have your city paralyzed by protests.
27:41
Speaker 2: And so oftentimes, at the end of the day, the
27:45
Speaker 2: only reason we can get results is we disrupt, but
27:49
Speaker 2: then we show them a path forward. We can disagree
27:57
Speaker 2: but not be disagreeable. We can all say that these
28:03
Speaker 2: these are the laws, and the laws should apply equally.
28:07
Speaker 2: And I always scratch my head when I think about
28:09
Speaker 2: what James Baba saying, I'm fine with you disagreeing with me.
28:13
Speaker 2: We can disagree as long as we agree that we
28:18
Speaker 2: are not going to be disagreeable unless your disagreement is
28:24
Speaker 2: rooted in my demand now as a human being, that
28:31
Speaker 2: you can try to say that I don't deserve humanity,
28:35
Speaker 2: then that we cannot agree to because we believe all
28:40
Speaker 2: of us are God's children.
28:44
Speaker 1: You know what I'm getting. I'm getting a lot what
28:47
Speaker 1: I'm getting. When you started talking about Trayvon Martin and
28:50
Speaker 1: the pictures that you use to humanize in it made
28:53
Speaker 1: me think about the Holocaust and one of the steps
28:56
Speaker 1: for Adolf Hitler was to dehumanize Jews so that the
29:00
Speaker 1: eradication of Jews did not really hit their conscious. The
29:04
Speaker 1: same thing with slavery and the attitude that they had
29:07
Speaker 1: that we were some human That way, it mitigated them
29:10
Speaker 1: from that humanity that you're talking about. That just cause
29:14
Speaker 1: it seems like part of your strategy is to put
29:17
Speaker 1: right into the face of America things that they can
29:20
Speaker 1: relate to, that they can connect with. And so it's
29:22
Speaker 1: people listening to us right now and they are going
29:25
Speaker 1: and making these unlikely alliances. It seems like part of
29:29
Speaker 1: what you're saying is you have to walk in and
29:32
Speaker 1: say what is common about us rather than what is
29:36
Speaker 1: different about us? That is that.
29:38
Speaker 2: Correct, is very correct, Bishop, because we have to find
29:42
Speaker 2: common ground and we cannot ever move forward without finding
29:48
Speaker 2: common ground. And I understand, and I'm an avid study
29:54
Speaker 2: of student of history, and I get it when the
29:58
Speaker 2: great Frederick Douglass as without struggle, there can be no progress.
30:03
Speaker 2: So don't curse the struggle. Celebrate the struggle, because that
30:08
Speaker 2: means as long as we're struggling, we're making progress. But
30:12
Speaker 2: hopefully in that struggle we can find common grounds with
30:17
Speaker 2: people who don't always appreciate our culture, or our history,
30:23
Speaker 2: or the love we have for our community and our children.
30:27
Speaker 2: Because I'm off the reminder of and I believe it
30:32
Speaker 2: was Andrew Young who said, they said asked, well, what
30:37
Speaker 2: do you all want? You know, y'all keep marching, y'all
30:41
Speaker 2: keep protesting. What do you want? And he said, I'm
30:46
Speaker 2: a write down five things that I want for my children,
30:49
Speaker 2: and I want you to do the same, and then
30:53
Speaker 2: let's compare the lists, because once they see that we
30:59
Speaker 2: have more in common than we want to believe, then
31:04
Speaker 2: we can start to make progress. Bishop Jakes, and I
31:07
Speaker 2: think about how you and spiritual leaders often have done
31:11
Speaker 2: that in America, where you all have found common ground
31:15
Speaker 2: and the teachings of Jesus Christ to say, even though
31:19
Speaker 2: we have different life experiences, even that we came to
31:23
Speaker 2: America in different paths, we have found common ground and
31:29
Speaker 2: the love that we have for Christ. And let's use
31:32
Speaker 2: that as the starting point and see what other things
31:35
Speaker 2: we can find in common.
31:36
Speaker 1: You're exactly right when you look at the future, and
31:39
Speaker 1: this last question, because I know you're real business. I
31:41
Speaker 1: appreciate you being gracious to even give me this interview,
31:44
Speaker 1: and I'm sure that the audience is going to be
31:46
Speaker 1: captivated at what a disruptive thinker you are and the
31:51
Speaker 1: strides you had made. When we look at the future
31:55
Speaker 1: and we look at the next generation of leaders, do
31:59
Speaker 1: you see encouragement that there will be another generation, another
32:04
Speaker 1: crop of people who are using their influence to disrupt
32:08
Speaker 1: the parts of our system, systemic racism that is inherent
32:14
Speaker 1: and in this country. Or are you worried about the future.
32:20
Speaker 1: How do you see that?
32:22
Speaker 2: You know, Bishop Jakes, I believe so much in the
32:27
Speaker 2: future generation that when I look at them, I squint
32:33
Speaker 2: my eyes because I think the future is so bright.
32:37
Speaker 2: I do believe with whatever criticisms we have with these
32:41
Speaker 2: young people, I am reminded that the young Black lives matter.
32:47
Speaker 2: Children on college campuses with John Lewis fifty years ago
32:51
Speaker 2: on the Edmund Pettis Bridge. Vice President Kamala Harrison, I
32:57
Speaker 2: talk a lot about the young people using their voices,
33:02
Speaker 2: and even though we may not always agree with how
33:06
Speaker 2: they're using their voices, you have to applaud them for
33:10
Speaker 2: using their voice to speak truth to power, because that
33:13
Speaker 2: is the beginning. And that's what I always remember my grandmother,
33:18
Speaker 2: And obviously my grandmother had a huge influence on my life.
33:23
Speaker 2: Eighth grade education. Still the wisest person I ever met
33:27
Speaker 2: on the face of this earth, thebout Christian. But my
33:31
Speaker 2: grandmother taught me bishop, and this is what I see
33:34
Speaker 2: in those young people. She said, baby, you have to
33:38
Speaker 2: speak truth to power. Whenever you get a chance to
33:42
Speaker 2: do so, she said, you always speak truth to power.
33:45
Speaker 2: She said, even if your knees are shaken and your
33:49
Speaker 2: palms are sweaty and your heart is racing, you still
33:54
Speaker 2: speak truth to power because there's so many people sacrifice
34:00
Speaker 2: for you to be at the table, for you now
34:04
Speaker 2: to open your voice and speak up for those who
34:08
Speaker 2: will never get an opportunity to be at the table.
34:12
Speaker 2: And that's what I see in these young people. And
34:15
Speaker 2: there I see it in all of them, Bishop Jakes.
34:18
Speaker 2: When we were out with George Floyd's family, there were
34:23
Speaker 2: as many young white children as there was young black children, saying,
34:29
Speaker 2: until we get justice for George Floyd, none of us
34:32
Speaker 2: can breathe. And that gave me so much hope for
34:36
Speaker 2: the future of America in this world. Seeing all those
34:40
Speaker 2: young people saying, we know what's right, and we know
34:43
Speaker 2: what's wrong, and we're gonna say it.
34:46
Speaker 1: It was an amazing visual something I've never seen in
34:49
Speaker 1: all of my life. For blacks and whites to stand
34:52
Speaker 1: together on a civil rights issue took that degree. We
34:55
Speaker 1: saw them sprinkle throughout the sixties, but to see them
34:59
Speaker 1: in such way quantity continue to take up social justice
35:03
Speaker 1: issues was just heartwarming and very very encouraging. I want
35:08
Speaker 1: to thank you for taking time out of your schedule
35:12
Speaker 1: to have this disruptive conversation to let us get into
35:15
Speaker 1: your head a little bit and see how you think
35:17
Speaker 1: and how you process things. And I want you to
35:20
Speaker 1: know that our prayers are with you as you go forward.
35:23
Speaker 1: This is an important assignment. It's also a dangerous assignment,
35:28
Speaker 1: but without that danger and that risk of danger in
35:31
Speaker 1: those sweaty palms you talked about butterflies in your summer.
35:35
Speaker 1: We wouldn't have had the progress that we've got. Thank
35:38
Speaker 1: you for paying the price you paid to be who
35:40
Speaker 1: you are and making the difference in the world that
35:42
Speaker 1: you have. God bless you.
35:44
Speaker 2: God bless you Bishop, and thank you for being a
35:47
Speaker 2: spiritual no staff for me and so many across the world.
35:51
Speaker 2: God bless