Latest / Ridiculous History / Emperor Tiberius Was Debauched, Deranged and Probably Not Fun At Parties

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Emperor Tiberius Was Debauched, Deranged and Probably Not Fun At Parties · Ridiculous History

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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome
0:27
Speaker 1: to the show, Ridiculous Historians. As always, thank you so
0:31
Speaker 1: much for tuning in. Quick disclaimer at the top. We
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Speaker 1: are a family show, but there are some parts of
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Speaker 1: this story that are a little, shall we say, racy?
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Speaker 1: What do you think? A little salacious? Perhaps a lingering touch,
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Speaker 1: maybe a little too long on the cheek, a little
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Speaker 1: too familiar. It's true. Those romans knew how to party.
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Speaker 1: Let me tell you. Yes, oh oh, and I'm Ben
0:58
Speaker 1: oh and I'm no, and I will tell you. We will,
1:01
Speaker 1: in fact tell you together along with superproducer Crazy Pegram.
1:06
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1:15
Speaker 1: Ducovney on a beach not to read one of our letters. Okay, Yeah,
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Speaker 1: it's true. Folks. Before we get into today's episode, you
1:22
Speaker 1: might be wondering, Hey, guys, why did you decide to
1:25
Speaker 1: do uh something a little more risque today? Uh? And
1:29
Speaker 1: that's because we are you know, um, we're dead set
1:34
Speaker 1: on on ruining our reputation. We just got famous. We
1:37
Speaker 1: got to write up in a Vanity Fair uh that
1:40
Speaker 1: I initially thought described us as three famous shipwrecks because
1:44
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1:50
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2:01
Speaker 1: but we we appreciate it, and we thank everybody who's
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Speaker 1: affiliated with our show in this episode. But of course, uh,
2:09
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you again. I don't know, so it
2:12
Speaker 1: felt like maybe our next logical step now that we've
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Speaker 1: reached the heights of something. Yeah, yeah, I mean, no
2:21
Speaker 1: better time than getting a little minute notoriety than the
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Speaker 1: torpedo your whole career with a single episode in a
2:29
Speaker 1: single fell swoop. But also regarding that Vanity Fair right
2:32
Speaker 1: up also shout out to dress the History of Fashion,
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Speaker 1: which also made that list of ten history podcast to
2:38
Speaker 1: check out. And honestly, there was some on that list
2:41
Speaker 1: that I was not familiar with, and I look forward
2:43
Speaker 1: to checking out myself. Yes, yes, agreed, and well said.
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Speaker 1: So you might be wondering, how are these guys going
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Speaker 1: to ruin their show for us today? Uh, well, we're
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Speaker 1: going to ask for some help from the ancients from Rome. Uh,
3:02
Speaker 1: we are going to ask for some help from a
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Speaker 1: guy named Emperor Tiberius. You know, in these are days
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Speaker 1: of reality television, uh being you know, a deranged shipwreck
3:16
Speaker 1: of debauchery is is a legitimate business and a lot
3:19
Speaker 1: of people do very well with it. But this guy
3:22
Speaker 1: was putting in the work way before cable. You know,
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Speaker 1: we don't get to use this word too often in
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Speaker 1: modern English, but this guy's debauched. He is debauched. He
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Speaker 1: has twisted, uh debauch, A bit of a pervert, definitely
3:38
Speaker 1: exhibited some some kinky behavior as a as a human being. Also,
3:44
Speaker 1: you know, one in a long line of Roman emperors
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Speaker 1: who were just not particularly great people. Yeah, spoiler alert there. Uh.
3:53
Speaker 1: He preceded directly Caligula, one of our favorite debauched emperors.
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Speaker 1: But he came by that honestly. Um, he had a
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Speaker 1: pretty pretty great role model in the debauchery department. Uh.
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Speaker 1: Tiberius was born on November sixty two b c E.
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Speaker 1: On an area called the Palatine hill Um. He was
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Speaker 1: the son of Tiberius Claudius Nero, who was a Roman
4:18
Speaker 1: key case caster. How do you say this word? Ben
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Speaker 1: q u A E S t o or I know
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Speaker 1: prey to ur, I don't know caster, is it key stir?
4:28
Speaker 1: Perhaps that would be appropriate. Yeah, that's uh. It's kind
4:31
Speaker 1: of like a money man or a comptroller. This is
4:36
Speaker 1: a general term for officials who had some sort of
4:40
Speaker 1: hand in or agency over public revenue and expenditure. So
4:45
Speaker 1: it's it's a good job if you can get it.
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Speaker 1: This guy's full name, by the way, Tiberius Caesar, Divvy, Augusty,
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Speaker 1: Philius Augustus, so you can see why they called him,
4:55
Speaker 1: you know, Tiberius or maybe Tibo or big T for short. Wait,
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Speaker 1: he had an August and then Augustus, what's why it's
5:02
Speaker 1: a weird flex double augustin man, you know. Uh, in
5:05
Speaker 1: the days before television, people had much longer names. So
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Speaker 1: and also he's he's royalty. Absolutely. But it's really funny.
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Speaker 1: I grew up in a town called Augusta, Um, which is,
5:15
Speaker 1: you know, where the Master's golf tournament takes place, and
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Speaker 1: also where James Brown was born, and he lived nearby
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Speaker 1: and until he passed away. But it's funny. Every time
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Speaker 1: I've met people not from Georgia, they always pronounced Augusta
5:27
Speaker 1: Augusta And I've always been kind of blown away by
5:31
Speaker 1: that because I'm like, have you not heard of Augustus?
5:33
Speaker 1: Like it's it seems like a weird stretch to to
5:36
Speaker 1: assume that you and it's a hard awe sound. Um,
5:39
Speaker 1: So just putting that out there as it was a
5:41
Speaker 1: little bit of a weird anachronism from folks not from
5:44
Speaker 1: from my neck of the woods. Yeah, like pronouncing Nevada
5:47
Speaker 1: or Nevada. Uh, that's a good example of that. I
5:50
Speaker 1: remember I was um or As in Ireland one time
5:54
Speaker 1: and this cab driver who was a beautiful, shady dude.
5:58
Speaker 1: I want to write a story about him. He uh.
6:01
Speaker 1: He was like, you know where, I'm not going to
6:03
Speaker 1: do the accent because we're on air, but he's like,
6:05
Speaker 1: where where are you all from? And you know, we
6:07
Speaker 1: said Atlanta, Georgia and he goes, oh, yeah, why And
6:11
Speaker 1: I had never asked how had somebody asked me why
6:14
Speaker 1: I lived? Like why am I from there? And uh?
6:17
Speaker 1: And then he said, you know, I would never travel
6:19
Speaker 1: to Georgia except if James Brown was still alive, because
6:23
Speaker 1: that's the thing about me. I'm irish. I love James Brown,
6:27
Speaker 1: and I love the rolling Stones and that's the only
6:29
Speaker 1: reason I would go to your state. But James Brown
6:31
Speaker 1: is dead anyway, here's your hotel. That was literally how
6:35
Speaker 1: he talked. Yeah, people love people love some JB. It's funny. Um.
6:40
Speaker 1: There was a stand up routine that Chris Rock did
6:43
Speaker 1: when he was performing in Augusta, and he referred to
6:45
Speaker 1: it um referencing the Masters and James Brown as the
6:49
Speaker 1: whitest and blackest place in America. UM. So I thought
6:53
Speaker 1: that was pretty clever. But but back to ancient Rome.
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Speaker 1: Um as as we know, Julius Caesar now got stabbed
7:01
Speaker 1: to death pretty brutally by the entire Roman Senate. They
7:06
Speaker 1: all had to have a hand in that, so it
7:07
Speaker 1: could be like a quorum of murder. So weird, like
7:10
Speaker 1: why don't they name why did they name a salad
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Speaker 1: after the guy? I think we should be calling all
7:14
Speaker 1: knives Caesar's now. Yeah, no, I completely agree. And and
7:18
Speaker 1: after this event, Rome was absolutely in disarray. There were
7:22
Speaker 1: these factions that emerged. Mark Anthony on the side of
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Speaker 1: uh Caesar, like you know, trying to I guess, defend
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Speaker 1: his honor or whatever. And Tiberius his family fought alongside
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Speaker 1: Mark Anthony. But then Octavia and you guys might remember
7:38
Speaker 1: Ben I'm not sure if you watched this, but Rome
7:40
Speaker 1: on HBO, all of this was dramatized pretty beautifully, not
7:44
Speaker 1: entirely sure how historically accurately, but it's a it's a
7:48
Speaker 1: really fun show. Um. But octavian was a character you
7:51
Speaker 1: kind of grew up with because he was sort of
7:52
Speaker 1: a boy king Um and uh it turned in his favor,
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Speaker 1: and then Tiberius and his family were essentially forced to flee,
8:02
Speaker 1: and they did that thing to Sicily, and that's when
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Speaker 1: Octavian Um named himself Caesar Augustus, and he became the
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Speaker 1: first legitimate last I don't know if legitimus didory word,
8:14
Speaker 1: but the first in name emperor of rome Um. And
8:18
Speaker 1: then when Tiberius was three years old, Augustus, the new emperor,
8:22
Speaker 1: gave his family a pass and granted them amnesty and
8:26
Speaker 1: they were able to come back out of hiding. They
8:28
Speaker 1: actually went to Greece after Sicily, so they were kicking
8:31
Speaker 1: it in Greece at this point. And so when Tiberius
8:35
Speaker 1: said his folks come back to Rome, Caesar Augustus, who
8:40
Speaker 1: was being advertised as the first true emperor of Rome
8:43
Speaker 1: at the time he notices the family, Like, clearly he
8:46
Speaker 1: likes them a bit because he allowed them to return,
8:49
Speaker 1: But it's a little bit sleazy because he's super into
8:53
Speaker 1: Tiberius's mom, Livia. As a matter of fact, he forces
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Speaker 1: Tiberius's dad to give up the marriage and thirty eight
9:01
Speaker 1: b c. And he marries Livia and he this makes
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Speaker 1: Tiberius one of the Emperor's adopted kids. So all of
9:10
Speaker 1: a sudden he is going from like running to Sicily,
9:14
Speaker 1: running to Greece on the lamb, to being the son
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Speaker 1: of the emperor. So he gets all the bells and
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Speaker 1: whistles that emperors get. His education is uh much better
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Speaker 1: than a lot of other you know, uh, a lot
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Speaker 1: of other people at the time his age. He learns philosophy, rhetoric,
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Speaker 1: battle strategy. He gets like every day with the Emperor
9:38
Speaker 1: is like bring your kid to work day, because Augustus
9:43
Speaker 1: is like, hey, you know, uh, the Tiberius, come with
9:46
Speaker 1: me to this parade. I want you to see how
9:49
Speaker 1: everybody loves being out afraid they are. Uh. And you know,
9:53
Speaker 1: one day maybe this will happen to you, a little buddy.
9:56
Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, and it was destined to be so. Um.
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Speaker 1: He really took a keen interest in those battle strategy lessons,
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Speaker 1: which is definitely not something like the clubs would have
10:07
Speaker 1: access to. UH. It was very much a package of
10:10
Speaker 1: education that was groomed specifically for a young ruler to
10:14
Speaker 1: be UM. And he exhibited a lot of cunning in
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Speaker 1: military affairs, and he fought in Gaul UH and really
10:23
Speaker 1: made a reputation for himself as a military man. UM.
10:27
Speaker 1: And he started into a career of public service. I
10:32
Speaker 1: guess you could call it. I've always found Roman UH
10:36
Speaker 1: leaders to not be in particular service to the public.
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Speaker 1: A lot of it is very self serving UH and
10:42
Speaker 1: self aggrandizing, but we'll call it civic career, right, UM.
10:46
Speaker 1: And so he initially was kind of a friend of
10:52
Speaker 1: the people. He defended and prosecuted at court, which was
10:57
Speaker 1: you know, with an audience in front of the Senate UM.
11:00
Speaker 1: And he began to uh kind of make some changes
11:04
Speaker 1: that were geared towards sort of helping the common uh citizens.
11:08
Speaker 1: He reorganized the supply chain of grain UM and was
11:13
Speaker 1: able to kind of solve some problems with the way
11:16
Speaker 1: slaves were kept, which is not something that a ruler
11:19
Speaker 1: would typically like concern themselves with. Apparently in the slave
11:22
Speaker 1: barracks there were really poor conditions uh, and free people
11:28
Speaker 1: were being detained there um and draft dodgers were often
11:34
Speaker 1: um trying to pose as slaves, which is interesting. And
11:37
Speaker 1: he put a stop to all that um, and he
11:40
Speaker 1: really started to ramp up his career as a politician. Um.
11:44
Speaker 1: What do we say? It was again ben key store
11:46
Speaker 1: k store k store kse store k triste. He became
11:50
Speaker 1: a k store, a prey tour and ultimately a console
11:54
Speaker 1: at a very very ripe young age and was given
11:58
Speaker 1: a tribune to oversee for a period of five years.
12:03
Speaker 1: And this is a great resource on thought code dot
12:06
Speaker 1: com and then gives us some nice background where using
12:09
Speaker 1: on Tiberius. I'd like to also give a shout out
12:11
Speaker 1: to history Collection dot co, which talks about the rule
12:17
Speaker 1: of Tiberius. Now, you know, there are a lot of
12:19
Speaker 1: circumstances that lead him to become emperor. And I don't
12:24
Speaker 1: know about you all, but I'd like to get to
12:25
Speaker 1: the good juicy stuff with his reign. So let let
12:29
Speaker 1: me just give you what they call the high level
12:32
Speaker 1: download and Corporate America give it to us. Have shaved it.
12:36
Speaker 1: I'm wearing his suit jacket. So I feel like he's
12:38
Speaker 1: on brand to say that now. So he is now
12:42
Speaker 1: kind of in line for the throat. Maybe he's fourth
12:45
Speaker 1: the line, maybe he's fifth, but at that point he
12:48
Speaker 1: doesn't have a real good chance of becoming emperor in
12:53
Speaker 1: normal times. However, these are not normal times. Uh. Several
12:57
Speaker 1: people die, and every time someone die, he moves a
13:00
Speaker 1: little bit closer to the throne to ascending to emperor.
13:04
Speaker 1: And it's weird because eventually it becomes clear that Caesar
13:08
Speaker 1: Augustus was grooming another person to take over as Emperor um.
13:14
Speaker 1: But this person, Agrippa, dies when he's fifty years old,
13:20
Speaker 1: and so after a couple of other deaths, eventually Caesar
13:24
Speaker 1: Augusta has to go to Tiberius and you know, officially
13:28
Speaker 1: adopted him to make him next in line for the
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Speaker 1: throne with the following phrase, uh not especially a loving
13:35
Speaker 1: father's phrase. He says, this I do for reasons of state,
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Speaker 1: and I love you, my new son. What is it
13:43
Speaker 1: new grandson, nephew? Yeah, that's right. He didn't add any
13:46
Speaker 1: of that, you know, he really did. And I'm just
13:48
Speaker 1: trying to help the help the young lad out um
13:50
Speaker 1: because obviously I don't know, maybe it was him not
13:53
Speaker 1: feeling loved enough that caused him to become the monster
13:56
Speaker 1: that we will soon describe him to to have become. Um,
13:59
Speaker 1: he was given tribunition powers for ten years then and
14:06
Speaker 1: adopted his nephew Germanicus to be his heir. So now
14:17
Speaker 1: he is uh, now he's riding high, right, and he
14:22
Speaker 1: kind of just has to wait for his weirdly distant
14:26
Speaker 1: stepfather to die or adoptive father. Uh. He goes off
14:30
Speaker 1: and he still fights battles because that's what he liked doing.
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Speaker 1: He's campaigning in what is modern day Germany. He's knocking
14:37
Speaker 1: down rebellions, he's shoring up the borders of the empire.
14:42
Speaker 1: Now like as the Emperor is getting closer to death,
14:46
Speaker 1: he is getting more and more legal constitutional power that
14:50
Speaker 1: puts him on par with the emperor. When Augustus dies
14:53
Speaker 1: auguste a D. They read his will. It confirms that
14:58
Speaker 1: Tiberius is the emperor, and it all becomes official September eighteenth,
15:03
Speaker 1: just a few days later, fourteen eight D. And at
15:06
Speaker 1: first he's coming, he's like a sheriff in a Wild
15:09
Speaker 1: West film. He's coming to clean this town up, and
15:12
Speaker 1: he hates astrologers. That's my favorite part. It is it
15:15
Speaker 1: is pretty funny. Yeah, but he had already kind of
15:17
Speaker 1: exhibited some of that stuff with the whole like you know,
15:19
Speaker 1: helping with the grain distribution so people could be fed,
15:22
Speaker 1: and you know, helping you know, clear up conditions for
15:25
Speaker 1: the slave quarters and all of that stuff. Um. I
15:28
Speaker 1: mean that that's not like the most magnanimous thing in
15:30
Speaker 1: the whole world. But the fact is he demonstrated that
15:33
Speaker 1: he kind of cared about normal people. UM. So he
15:36
Speaker 1: apparently had a real burning hatred for sick offense, which
15:41
Speaker 1: is a word that I love because it just is
15:43
Speaker 1: fun to say. And obviously that is a thing that
15:45
Speaker 1: a lot of these kinds of rulers are surrounded by,
15:49
Speaker 1: and he had no time for that. Um. So he
15:52
Speaker 1: uh did not surround himself with yes men. He was
15:55
Speaker 1: very much in control of his own decisions, and he
15:59
Speaker 1: really try to check some of these just gross abuses
16:03
Speaker 1: and mishandling of UH funds that had caused, you know, um,
16:09
Speaker 1: the lives of normal citizens to be really disrupted in
16:11
Speaker 1: favor of you know, rulers living high on the hog um.
16:15
Speaker 1: As we know, there were Egyptian connections with UH with
16:19
Speaker 1: with Rome because of Mark Anthony and Cleopatra specifically, and
16:23
Speaker 1: so there were all of these kind of little cells,
16:25
Speaker 1: I guess, these Egyptian cults and also Jewish cults in Rome.
16:29
Speaker 1: And he disbanded those, uh likely with a very heavy hand.
16:34
Speaker 1: And he also, like you said, Ben, he banished all
16:37
Speaker 1: of the astrologers because he found them to be tricksters
16:42
Speaker 1: and and not not trustworthy. Um. He consolidated the government,
16:46
Speaker 1: the praetorians um to make it more efficient. He quashed
16:51
Speaker 1: all of these riots and infighting, and he abolished something
16:55
Speaker 1: called the right of sanctuary, which I guess there's parallels
16:59
Speaker 1: in kind of modern day geopolitics. But what what do
17:01
Speaker 1: you take that to mean? Ben? The right of sanctuary
17:05
Speaker 1: is this old, old concept. Of course, maybe you know
17:08
Speaker 1: it's kind of new at the time. Then, uh. The
17:10
Speaker 1: idea is that if you're being persecuted by your own country,
17:14
Speaker 1: you can be protected by some other authority. Like that's
17:18
Speaker 1: why you have all those things from the Middle Ages
17:20
Speaker 1: or films that are set in the Middle Ages where
17:22
Speaker 1: someone's like sanctuary, sanctuary. It dates back to this concept.
17:28
Speaker 1: I do want to say, when we say Egyptian and
17:30
Speaker 1: Jewish cults that's not that's not a pejorative term. Uh.
17:35
Speaker 1: They are occulted, you know, they're practicing things in secret,
17:38
Speaker 1: so he saw them as an avenue. They have potential
17:42
Speaker 1: to be seditious. My last question with that one is
17:45
Speaker 1: did the astrologers see it coming? Is that rude to ask?
17:49
Speaker 1: I don't think they saw it coming. I highly doubt
17:52
Speaker 1: it myself, Ben. And so then you know, he was
17:54
Speaker 1: seen as being kind of progressive, you know, in terms
17:57
Speaker 1: of some of the laws and the policies that he enacted. Uh,
18:01
Speaker 1: and seemed to be kind of helping the nation what
18:07
Speaker 1: was wrong the empire, that's the word. Um, helping strengthen
18:10
Speaker 1: their navy. UM. He stopped gladiator events, which obviously we're
18:16
Speaker 1: hugely popular, and I'm sure that didn't go over particularly well.
18:19
Speaker 1: But as we know, I mean, it's an absolutely barbaric
18:21
Speaker 1: situation where slaves and you know, prisoners were forced to
18:25
Speaker 1: fight to the death for the amusement of of the people.
18:29
Speaker 1: UM and also mainly the the hierarchy. UM. And he
18:33
Speaker 1: even like showed this idea of having a month named
18:37
Speaker 1: after him. So he seemed to have a little bit
18:38
Speaker 1: of humility. He was not into extravagance and all the
18:42
Speaker 1: trappings of the office. So started off kind of strong,
18:45
Speaker 1: right yeah yeah. Uh also good, I will say objectively
18:50
Speaker 1: good call and stopping claudatorial things. That's there were animals
18:53
Speaker 1: that were hunted to the state of critical endangerment. Um,
18:58
Speaker 1: I'm just pro animals, anti gladiators, I guess. Yeah. This
19:03
Speaker 1: this seems set like he's clearly authoritarian. He's clearly trying
19:07
Speaker 1: to stop what he sees as headonism. Right. Uh, this
19:11
Speaker 1: whole changes in eree his beloved son drew Sus dies.
19:16
Speaker 1: According to contemporary reports and reports that you know were
19:20
Speaker 1: written long after his reign, this is seen as his
19:24
Speaker 1: his tipping point. Uh. There's a source called Cassius Dio
19:28
Speaker 1: who says Tiberius now became increasingly paranoid and bloodthirsty and cruel,
19:36
Speaker 1: and he was showing some signs of what we would
19:39
Speaker 1: call cognitive dissonance today. He would torture slaves to death,
19:44
Speaker 1: and then he would mourn people who died after he
19:48
Speaker 1: ordered their deaths, but then he would resent the people
19:52
Speaker 1: who he didn't purge. Uh. This like imagine what a
19:58
Speaker 1: mind field that is, because it sounds like he's having
20:01
Speaker 1: some dithering, some indecision. He's like, man, I should have
20:04
Speaker 1: killed caster number two. Why are you alive? Number one?
20:08
Speaker 1: I knew it was you. You've committed some weird crime. Uh.
20:13
Speaker 1: This is clearly going to have some blowback. He becomes
20:16
Speaker 1: incredibly unpopular with the Senate, where the people he has
20:20
Speaker 1: to please, and with the people like the actual people
20:23
Speaker 1: of the Roman Empire. Absolutely, I mean, because he's definitely
20:26
Speaker 1: going after some wealthy landholders and people that are very
20:31
Speaker 1: influential with members of the Senate. Um. He's just dolling
20:35
Speaker 1: out all of these really harsh punishments and confiscating people's property,
20:40
Speaker 1: and then he just kind of ups and leaves. In
20:44
Speaker 1: twenty s CE, he's like, peace out, you know, I'm gone,
20:47
Speaker 1: and he takes off to Capri. It reminds me of
20:51
Speaker 1: that part and the Sword in the Stone where Merlin's like,
20:54
Speaker 1: blow me too, Bermuda, you know. And then he's out
20:57
Speaker 1: and he's gone, and he just pieces out to Bermuda
21:00
Speaker 1: and then kind of comes back at the end to
21:01
Speaker 1: sort of like set things right or whatever, or at
21:04
Speaker 1: least let Arthur come into his own that that is
21:06
Speaker 1: not what happens with Tiberia. So he goes to the
21:08
Speaker 1: island of Capri, which is a beautiful place that's still
21:11
Speaker 1: a very swanky destination for the rich and powerful today.
21:16
Speaker 1: But he completely became like this hermit. And he assigned
21:22
Speaker 1: control to uh Lucius alias said Janus Um, who is
21:27
Speaker 1: the captain of of his praetorian guard uh. And he
21:31
Speaker 1: gave him this name, Socius labor um, which means partner
21:34
Speaker 1: of my labors, which I guess is sort of like
21:36
Speaker 1: the idea of oh, what would you call that ben
21:39
Speaker 1: like um, what do you call someone that kind of
21:42
Speaker 1: rules in while someone else is maybe not doing well
21:46
Speaker 1: or like under the weather, like health wise, power behind
21:49
Speaker 1: the throne. You could also say um regent perhaps is perfect.
21:55
Speaker 1: That's the one I was trying to think of. So
21:57
Speaker 1: Tiberius when he does this, he he seems to completely
22:01
Speaker 1: withdraw I like that you bring up the phrase hermit.
22:04
Speaker 1: He is a reclusive he's in the island of Capri,
22:07
Speaker 1: Bay of Naples. But this is where it gets weird.
22:10
Speaker 1: So younger listeners, family listeners be warned, this might not
22:14
Speaker 1: be appropriate for everybody. According to a source named Setonius,
22:18
Speaker 1: who was also um, kind of like a TMZ kind
22:23
Speaker 1: of questionable coverage Yeah, Tiberius went nuts in the worst
22:29
Speaker 1: way and became an example of a lot of the
22:31
Speaker 1: things that he originally fought against. Uh. Here is an
22:35
Speaker 1: excerpt from Setonius, Life of Tiberius and all the hey's
22:40
Speaker 1: referred to Tiberius. Here. On retiring to Capri, he devised
22:45
Speaker 1: a pleasants for his secret orgies, teams of wantons of
22:48
Speaker 1: both sexes selected as experts, and deviant intercourse. And here's
22:53
Speaker 1: my favorite part, dubbed analyst. I first read that analysts,
22:58
Speaker 1: and now I realized that not what it means at all.
23:01
Speaker 1: That's such a we're like nine years old. That's such
23:03
Speaker 1: a weird word. Any way, So they said they copulated
23:07
Speaker 1: before him in triple unions to excite his flagging passions.
23:11
Speaker 1: It's this is a long quote. You want to help
23:12
Speaker 1: out with us part? Yeah, it's bedroom. Now. This is
23:15
Speaker 1: referring to by the way, he built all these villas,
23:18
Speaker 1: and the most elaborate of them was called Villa Jovis,
23:22
Speaker 1: which I believe translates to the Villa of Jupiter, which
23:25
Speaker 1: was a an absurdly ostentatious palatial kind of estate on
23:30
Speaker 1: the island of Capri's northeast corner. It goes on to say,
23:34
Speaker 1: in referring to the bedrooms of Villa Jovis, Uh, they
23:38
Speaker 1: were furnished with the most salacious paintings and sculptures, as
23:43
Speaker 1: well as with an erotic library. In case a performer
23:46
Speaker 1: should need an illustration of what was required, then in
23:50
Speaker 1: Capri's woods and groves, he arranged a number of nooks
23:53
Speaker 1: of venery where boys and girls got up as pans
23:58
Speaker 1: and nymphs solicited outside bowers and grottos. People openly called
24:03
Speaker 1: this the old goats Garden. Punning on the island's name
24:06
Speaker 1: because of the Romans referred to Capri as goat Island
24:10
Speaker 1: is so so so gross, because all right, well, our
24:15
Speaker 1: our path is set, let's keep going. You know, of course,
24:17
Speaker 1: we know that Pan the satyr Uh is the Greek
24:21
Speaker 1: god with the bottom half of a goat, and Uh,
24:26
Speaker 1: I don't know, he's got the hind quarters of a goat,
24:28
Speaker 1: and he's got the horns. And these were thought to be,
24:32
Speaker 1: you know, symbolically, they were um representations of uh physical desire,
24:39
Speaker 1: of UH sexual passion. And so this is something that
24:44
Speaker 1: Satorious is definitely leveraging to make Tiberias seem like a
24:49
Speaker 1: super horny old man. But this is this is one
24:52
Speaker 1: of the weirdest ones. So he completely is not doing
24:55
Speaker 1: his job as emperor. Instead, according according to this story,
25:00
Speaker 1: he is getting so weird and specific with his pursuits
25:05
Speaker 1: that that he's doing things that probably wouldn't occur to
25:09
Speaker 1: most people in the world at the time. Who else
25:12
Speaker 1: would have thought of training children, little boys to act
25:16
Speaker 1: as nipping minnows or what he called tidlers I believe,
25:20
Speaker 1: to chase him when he went swimming. Yeah, that's gross,
25:25
Speaker 1: It's it's beyond gross. And just to just to take
25:27
Speaker 1: it one step further, um, yeah, they were nipping minnows
25:32
Speaker 1: because he would be swimming I'm imagining in the nude
25:35
Speaker 1: and they would swim after him, nibbling between his legs. Um.
25:41
Speaker 1: So yeah, no one from the court was allowed to
25:45
Speaker 1: visit him on Capri. He was in complete quarantine. Uh,
25:49
Speaker 1: you know, self imposed. Um, with this harem of of
25:53
Speaker 1: young boys and women and girls and just having a
25:56
Speaker 1: good old time. Um. There were even you know, local
25:59
Speaker 1: fisher men who were in that region. Uh, they were
26:04
Speaker 1: not allowed to fish in the waters of Capri. If
26:06
Speaker 1: they were found to be doing that, they would have
26:09
Speaker 1: held to pay yeah, and uh he turned the place
26:12
Speaker 1: into his own deranged uh pleasure islands. So how did
26:18
Speaker 1: he get away with this? For so long? He was
26:22
Speaker 1: distracting the Senate, which is something a lot of Greek
26:25
Speaker 1: and Roman emperors did, you know, the whole bread and
26:28
Speaker 1: circuses vibes. He was distracting the public by his clearly
26:32
Speaker 1: deteriorating mental state, his sexual deviancy, by building statues all
26:37
Speaker 1: over the city and distributing all this propaganda. Right, and
26:41
Speaker 1: he was so busy though with his weird fetishistic stuff
26:46
Speaker 1: that he did not notice the same person he was
26:48
Speaker 1: trying to keep in power was of course plotting against him.
26:53
Speaker 1: And then when he figured out that treason was in
26:56
Speaker 1: the air, you know, he presumably put some clothes on, right, Uh,
27:02
Speaker 1: maybe dried himself off, took off whatever weird costume he
27:06
Speaker 1: had on, and he said, I've got to go to Rome.
27:08
Speaker 1: Get yet to Rome. And he did that in a
27:11
Speaker 1: D thirty one. He uh summoned s Janas, who was
27:15
Speaker 1: his his buddy up until this point, to a Senate meeting,
27:19
Speaker 1: immediately condemned him to death. Um accused him of treason.
27:23
Speaker 1: And it's not like they tried him or anything. They
27:25
Speaker 1: just the accusation alone was all it took, and had
27:28
Speaker 1: him executed along with anyone that was associated with him
27:32
Speaker 1: or his plot to overtake uh, Tiberius as the ruler.
27:37
Speaker 1: And then I mean that wasn't enough. He you know,
27:40
Speaker 1: that paranoia that we described earlier, this is really coming
27:43
Speaker 1: into play because he goes on an absolute murder frenzy um.
27:47
Speaker 1: And Tacitus, who's another historian, describes it as such. This
27:51
Speaker 1: is wild. Executions were now a stimulus to his fury,
27:56
Speaker 1: and he ordered the death of all who were lying
27:58
Speaker 1: in prison under accusation of complicity with Saganas. There lay
28:03
Speaker 1: singly or in heaps, the unnumbered dead of every age
28:08
Speaker 1: and sex, the illustrious, with the obscure kinsfolk and friends
28:12
Speaker 1: were not allowed to be near them, to weep over them,
28:14
Speaker 1: or even to gaze on them too long. And so
28:24
Speaker 1: Tiberius really shoots himself in the foot here way before
28:27
Speaker 1: the invention of firearms. Obviously, Uh. You see Saganas the
28:31
Speaker 1: person who is doing all the work, and the person
28:33
Speaker 1: he supported, and then the person who turned against him
28:35
Speaker 1: that he later executed. Saganas have been taking the brunt
28:40
Speaker 1: of public blame for the emperor's we're disturbing excesses. But
28:46
Speaker 1: when he was gone, when he was killed out of
28:48
Speaker 1: the picture, the blame for this rested solely with the
28:51
Speaker 1: guy who was responsible, Typeerious. The empire continued to run on.
28:55
Speaker 1: It's a huge machine. But for the remaining six years
28:59
Speaker 1: of Type Arious his life, he was terrorizing Rome. The Senate,
29:04
Speaker 1: which was famous for infighting and betrayal and subterfuge. The
29:09
Speaker 1: Senate was scrambling, just like any congressional body or parliament
29:14
Speaker 1: to agree on something. They needed to name a successor.
29:18
Speaker 1: And then Tiberius, at this point is so far gone.
29:22
Speaker 1: He's convinced not only has Saganas betrayed him or was
29:25
Speaker 1: planning to overthrow him, but he thinks Siganna's killed his
29:28
Speaker 1: kid as well, and so he sends out these spies
29:32
Speaker 1: like you. Like you have mentioned in that quote, no
29:34
Speaker 1: one is safe. Even people who are on Capri are
29:38
Speaker 1: not safe. He's sending folks out for them. And eventually,
29:42
Speaker 1: just like his adoptive father, he takes an l and
29:46
Speaker 1: he says, I'm going to have to name some successors,
29:49
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna name one of my adopted grandsons. He
29:52
Speaker 1: names his grandson, caligula successor. And then he says, I
29:58
Speaker 1: am nursing a viper in Rome. S bossom ha ha
30:02
Speaker 1: fun right. Uh. And then you know, he gets into
30:07
Speaker 1: like an accident during kind of a ceremonial joust, I
30:12
Speaker 1: guess is what you could call it um, and that
30:15
Speaker 1: really caused his health to take a turn for the worst.
30:18
Speaker 1: He fell into a coma and uh, the physicians that
30:22
Speaker 1: attended to him, you know, said he would, he would.
30:24
Speaker 1: He's a goner. He's gonna be dead within like a
30:26
Speaker 1: day or so. Uh. Caligula has called for the Praetorian
30:30
Speaker 1: Guard bend the knee to him, and the Senate officially
30:34
Speaker 1: proclaims Caligula to be the Supreme Emperor of Roman. You
30:38
Speaker 1: even added the supreme just to give it a little
30:41
Speaker 1: more of of a flex. Yeah, you got a flex
30:43
Speaker 1: on him. But wait, there's a whomp whomp moment here.
30:47
Speaker 1: This is a very Larry David moment, because, uh, Tiberius
30:51
Speaker 1: doesn't die. He wakes up and he's like, boy, I'm hungry. Uh,
30:57
Speaker 1: he cooked me up something to eat. People are panicking,
31:00
Speaker 1: you know this guy. Now, we can't have two emperors.
31:02
Speaker 1: That's not emperor's work. Uh so history sometimes very rare times,
31:08
Speaker 1: it turns on the actions of a single individual, which
31:11
Speaker 1: should be inspiring and terrifying in equal parts. One person
31:16
Speaker 1: changes the course of history. The new captain of the
31:19
Speaker 1: Praetorian Guard, Macro, which is a cool name, Um Macro,
31:26
Speaker 1: slips into Tiberius's chambers again he probably would have survived
31:29
Speaker 1: for a few more years, and uh he smothers the
31:33
Speaker 1: elderly former emperor to death. Yeah, with a pile of blankets,
31:37
Speaker 1: which is kind of a step up from the usual
31:39
Speaker 1: hospital bed pillow smothering. But it's interesting then. You know.
31:43
Speaker 1: You got to think too that this was in many
31:45
Speaker 1: ways a kind of self preservation move on Macro's part,
31:49
Speaker 1: because he knew that if if Tiberius found out that
31:54
Speaker 1: he and his entire guard had already sworn fealty to um,
31:59
Speaker 1: you know, to Sigula while he lay there in a colma,
32:01
Speaker 1: he would not have been very happy about that, and
32:04
Speaker 1: with his crazy rages, probably would have done something bonkers
32:08
Speaker 1: like had them all killed or removed or imprisoned or something. Right. Yeah,
32:12
Speaker 1: that's a really good point. You know. Regicide is a
32:15
Speaker 1: great crime, the killing of a of a king or
32:18
Speaker 1: royal But the more I think about it, maybe Macro
32:23
Speaker 1: was trying to save the empire because you know, at
32:27
Speaker 1: this point Caligula is clearly depraved, right, but uh he
32:32
Speaker 1: doesn't have the track record of insanity that Tiberius has
32:36
Speaker 1: before he dies under that pile of blankets at the
32:39
Speaker 1: age of seventy seven. So maybe Macro, Maybe Macro deserves
32:42
Speaker 1: more credit as um in terms of his intentions. What
32:46
Speaker 1: do you think. I think he might be right. He
32:48
Speaker 1: chose the lesser of the two nutcases in this particular
32:51
Speaker 1: situation because Caligula still hadn't had access to all of
32:56
Speaker 1: the resources that you do when you become the supreme emperor.
33:00
Speaker 1: Uh So, if you guys have ever seen the purely
33:02
Speaker 1: pornographic film Caligula starring Malcolm McDowell, which I believe was
33:07
Speaker 1: produced by a porn impress Sario possibly pen. It wasn't
33:11
Speaker 1: Penthouse because that was no pen. It was Penthouse because
33:14
Speaker 1: Hustler was Larry flint Um. I believe it was the
33:16
Speaker 1: publisher of Penthouse magazine. And that is a film to
33:20
Speaker 1: check out. It is absolutely depraved and some of the
33:23
Speaker 1: set pieces are nuts. There's one where he's taking out
33:26
Speaker 1: all his enemies and rivals um by burying them up
33:29
Speaker 1: to their neck in uh sand. And then there's this
33:32
Speaker 1: crazy like giant thresher lawnmower type machine that like slices
33:37
Speaker 1: all their heads off, like their little cabbage is above
33:40
Speaker 1: the ground and it just lops them off. Don't know
33:42
Speaker 1: how historically accurate that is, but definitely a film worth
33:46
Speaker 1: checking out if you want something completely trashy. I do
33:50
Speaker 1: I do want to add so this this is the
33:52
Speaker 1: depraved Rain, the debauched Rain of Tiberius. But we do
33:55
Speaker 1: want to add um I think I tease this at
33:58
Speaker 1: the top of the episode. Oh yeah, I know what
33:59
Speaker 1: you're in them? Yeah, we these stories are red meat
34:03
Speaker 1: right there, juicy, they're they're fascinating, but they might they
34:09
Speaker 1: might not be a true because you might be thinking,
34:13
Speaker 1: fellow ridiculous historians, when you're listening to the this episode,
34:16
Speaker 1: UH might be thinking, Wow, what gives with all these
34:20
Speaker 1: uh perverted, bizarre, deprived emperors in the Roman Empire? Well,
34:27
Speaker 1: some of these might be tabloid stories. We have to
34:30
Speaker 1: take them with a grain of salt. We have to
34:33
Speaker 1: remember that a lot of these people who wrote these
34:35
Speaker 1: histories of emperors after they died, they were living under
34:39
Speaker 1: the rule of another emperor, and so it's not the
34:43
Speaker 1: best move to be like, you know, who is way
34:46
Speaker 1: cool that guy before you? You know, yeah, and you
34:50
Speaker 1: gotta think like, yeah, they're trying to curry favor directly,
34:53
Speaker 1: but also they know which side their bread is buttered on. Uh,
34:57
Speaker 1: and they may well have been slipped some of these
35:00
Speaker 1: details and said you will write of Tiberius that he
35:02
Speaker 1: had young catamites swimming after his bits and behaving as
35:07
Speaker 1: tiny minnows, you know, in a rgsque you know, situation
35:12
Speaker 1: on on capri um. So you know, that sounds so
35:15
Speaker 1: bonkers that it's just crazy enough to have literally been
35:18
Speaker 1: made up by somebody, because it's like, if I had
35:20
Speaker 1: to make up something just completely untrue, uh, and that
35:24
Speaker 1: would get people's imagination spinning, that might be a go to. Yeah,
35:28
Speaker 1: as as someone uh who was recovering from doing massive
35:32
Speaker 1: about the improv back in the day. That sounds like
35:34
Speaker 1: a setup that you arrive at when a bunch of
35:37
Speaker 1: people are just brainstorming and they're like, what's even weirder,
35:40
Speaker 1: what's even weirder? No, no, no, no, no, no now now, um,
35:44
Speaker 1: this kind of uh, depraved sexual behavior is disturbing. But
35:48
Speaker 1: let's get you know, let's get weird with it. Let's
35:50
Speaker 1: throw a pool in there, right, somebody yes and me
35:53
Speaker 1: on this one. That's that's almost how it reads, because
35:57
Speaker 1: you'll see other reports that say Tiberius actually, when he
36:00
Speaker 1: lived in exile and Capri, he just lived with like
36:03
Speaker 1: a small group of people that where his friends are entourage,
36:06
Speaker 1: and he hung out and talked philosophy with Greek intellectuals.
36:10
Speaker 1: So the real truth is probably somewhere in between. There's
36:13
Speaker 1: also an account from Edward Togo Salmon that says only
36:17
Speaker 1: fifty two people were actually accused of treason throughout his
36:20
Speaker 1: entire reign, and that only about half of them were executed,
36:23
Speaker 1: and uh, only four innocent men died apparently. Um, and
36:28
Speaker 1: here's the thing, um, you know, the system of government
36:33
Speaker 1: is really more to blame. You know, even as crazy
36:35
Speaker 1: as a ruler can be, it's the system of government
36:38
Speaker 1: that's kind of what empowers them to get that crazy,
36:41
Speaker 1: whether it's the Senate or whether it's just you know, uh,
36:44
Speaker 1: the nature of of an empire in the Roman system,
36:46
Speaker 1: and that it wasn't merit based at all, that it
36:49
Speaker 1: was all about succession, and so you would get these like,
36:52
Speaker 1: you know, it's the same with with royalty. I mean
36:55
Speaker 1: you you end up with these like completely under prepared
36:58
Speaker 1: and potentially mental ill rulers because nobody has a choice
37:03
Speaker 1: but to elevate them to that position because they are
37:05
Speaker 1: in line. Yeah. On various other shows, I've I've made
37:09
Speaker 1: my opinions about monarchical systems known. We don't need to
37:13
Speaker 1: go into them today other than to say I have
37:16
Speaker 1: on the same page with you. Even in our system,
37:19
Speaker 1: you you have a big problem, a lot on stuff
37:21
Speaker 1: that it wants you to know about nepotism and about
37:24
Speaker 1: like you know, dynasty's political dynasties, which is kind of
37:27
Speaker 1: a modern version of the same kind of business in
37:29
Speaker 1: a lot of ways. Yes, yeah, all right, I'll say it.
37:32
Speaker 1: I'll say it. I'll keep it brief. This is not
37:34
Speaker 1: gonna be a ted talk. But do you know how
37:36
Speaker 1: weird it is to explain to uh, my friends who
37:40
Speaker 1: are not from the States and they say, oh, okay,
37:42
Speaker 1: so this is a democracy, republican meritocracy. That means that
37:46
Speaker 1: the most qualified person gets the job. And I'm like, yeah,
37:49
Speaker 1: that's what that's what it means. Every you know, every
37:52
Speaker 1: few years we elect the best and brightest of all
37:57
Speaker 1: three d twenty three millions something of us. And then
38:00
Speaker 1: they always hit me with that question, if that's true,
38:03
Speaker 1: how come so many presidents to that the same last name.
38:06
Speaker 1: How come they've been in the same family. I thought
38:09
Speaker 1: you said it wasn't a monarchy, At which point I'm like, oh, man, well,
38:14
Speaker 1: you know there's a lot lost in the chasm between
38:19
Speaker 1: theory and practice. Anyway, let me show you this landmark.
38:23
Speaker 1: It's called Stone Mountain. Yeah. The fact they haven't sand
38:29
Speaker 1: blasted that baby yet is is kind of lost on me.
38:31
Speaker 1: But you know, history, you gotta preserve history and all that.
38:34
Speaker 1: And speaking of preserving history, if you want to take
38:37
Speaker 1: a pleasure cruise to the island of Capri, you can
38:40
Speaker 1: do so from Naples and check it out. And the
38:43
Speaker 1: ruins I guess of the villa where Tiberius supposedly carried
38:48
Speaker 1: out all of these debauched activities is tourable. Um, it's
38:51
Speaker 1: a bit of a walk. I think it's a couple
38:53
Speaker 1: of kilometers from where you get dropped off, but it's
38:57
Speaker 1: it's accessible and probably a very interesting, uh interesting hike.
39:02
Speaker 1: And in conclusion, we hope you enjoyed today's episode, folks, Uh,
39:07
Speaker 1: we do have to say to be fair that while
39:11
Speaker 1: clearly we're we're having fun taking, in my mind valid
39:15
Speaker 1: pot shots at the problems with Roman government and the
39:18
Speaker 1: Empire in general, they are in a large part responsible
39:23
Speaker 1: for some incredibly profound scientific and cultural and philosophical advances
39:29
Speaker 1: that are that remain important in the world today. So
39:32
Speaker 1: I'm just I feel like we have to say it.
39:35
Speaker 1: But still Tiberius makes you wonder what leaders can get
39:39
Speaker 1: away with, you know. Um not to say there aren't
39:42
Speaker 1: uh leaders who are bawling out in very strange depraved
39:46
Speaker 1: ways today, Kim Jongoon, the assaultan of Brunei, Donald Trump, Yeah, yeah,
39:53
Speaker 1: the I mean, the a lot of ruling members of
39:58
Speaker 1: the House of out in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
40:02
Speaker 1: History is not as as far gone nor as uh
40:06
Speaker 1: uh distant as I think we would like to think sometimes.
40:10
Speaker 1: So maybe Tiberius is a lesson that applies in the
40:13
Speaker 1: modern day. Maybe we could just call it, hey, don't
40:15
Speaker 1: hire your nephew. I don't know, absolutely not, especially you're like,
40:20
Speaker 1: you know, like Damien from the Omen type nephew, you
40:24
Speaker 1: know know that that just read the signs, read the room,
40:27
Speaker 1: not a good idea, but man, I gotta say Ben.
40:30
Speaker 1: As as as upsetting in some ways and depraved as
40:34
Speaker 1: this episode was, I really enjoyed talking about this with you. Yeah, agreed.
40:40
Speaker 1: I'm also grateful that we have instituted our own form
40:43
Speaker 1: of government for ridiculous history. Early on, I cannot remember
40:47
Speaker 1: if we were talking about this on air or if
40:49
Speaker 1: we were at a happy hour to bar back when
40:52
Speaker 1: people went outside, but there was a time where we
40:54
Speaker 1: decided to elect Casey as our ruler. I think you're
40:58
Speaker 1: the only man for the job. Casey, are you okay
41:01
Speaker 1: with this heavy waves the head that wears the crown.
41:05
Speaker 1: I don't feel like I'm really cut out for for ruling,
41:07
Speaker 1: but if it thrust upon me, I guess I'll do
41:09
Speaker 1: what I can. Oh, we be thrust in. It is
41:12
Speaker 1: thrust uh in, you know, in pure in pure Tiberian style, boy,
41:18
Speaker 1: thrust in on Casey. Which can we start calling you
41:21
Speaker 1: the case store? Sure? I love the case store, Casey,
41:24
Speaker 1: case case k store on the case. Okay, I'm gonna stop.
41:27
Speaker 1: We'll get there, We'll get there, We'll workshop it. Thank
41:30
Speaker 1: you as always for tuning in thinks of course, to
41:33
Speaker 1: our research associate Gabe Bluesier, who I know books it's
41:41
Speaker 1: on the books though now it is actually happening. Gabe,
41:44
Speaker 1: thank you for pencil. You knows. I think we're such
41:48
Speaker 1: fan boys of this guy. I hope it's not too awkward.
41:52
Speaker 1: Can we tease us a little bit just saying that
41:54
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about psychedelic cats? Nobody google that.
41:59
Speaker 1: Don't ruin this for us or yourself. It's gonna be
42:01
Speaker 1: a wild ride. Uh. And of course thanks to our
42:04
Speaker 1: our good pal Christopher Hasciotis do for a return appearance,
42:08
Speaker 1: I would say, also Eve's Jeff Coat. Uh. And oh
42:11
Speaker 1: you know what I never I forgot to. I forgot
42:14
Speaker 1: to write back to Jonathan Strickland, a k. The quister,
42:17
Speaker 1: that one's on me. What do you mean right back?
42:19
Speaker 1: We don't communicate with him, and advance of his appearances,
42:22
Speaker 1: he just kind of materializes. I like to write him
42:25
Speaker 1: some some kind of like personal digs and insults, because
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Speaker 1: I think it just to get his dander up. Yeah,
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Speaker 1: for sure, for sure. Eat thanks to Alex Williams, who
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Speaker 1: composed our theme. Thanks to super producer Casey pegram Case
42:39
Speaker 1: Store Casey on the Casey case how about that? There
42:44
Speaker 1: we go Yeah, and thanks of course to our our
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Speaker 1: good friend of the show and personal friends Sarah Cotanov,
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Speaker 1: who initially tipped us off about that right up, and
42:54
Speaker 1: Noel as always, thanks to you, Yeah, thanks to YouTube Ben,
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Speaker 1: and just really quickly, thanks to Justine Good who wrote
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Speaker 1: that nicely for Vanity Fair and Uh and thought to
43:02
Speaker 1: include us that it means the world. We'll see you
43:04
Speaker 1: next time, folks. For more podcasts from My Heart Radio,
43:13
Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
43:16
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.