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Suliman Carrim arrested at airport for ignoring Madlanga Commission subpoena · Drive with John Perlman

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  Speaker 1: You're with John Perlman on 702. 702 Drive, 25 minutes
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  Speaker 1: past three. Lots of you sending us your words of
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  Speaker 1: the year, and I'll share the words that sum up
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  Speaker 1: the year so far, and I'll share those with you
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  Speaker 1: a little later in the show. But right now, let's
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  Speaker 1: get to the Pretoria Magistrates Court. Quite a day, Humoto Modise,
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  Speaker 1: and playing out in the court, Suleiman Karim being questioned
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  Speaker 1: about a whole range of things, including whether he was
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  Speaker 1: actually intending to return to South Africa or not. Did he,
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  Speaker 1: in the answers he was giving to the court while
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  Speaker 1: being questioned, in any way contradict some of what we
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  Speaker 1: heard earlier? That, for example, he didn't have a return ticket.
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  Speaker 1: What did we hear?
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  Speaker 2: That's right, John. So there were a bit of contradictions,
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  Speaker 2: even on the side of the state, I must mention.
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  Speaker 2: So earlier on, when we spoke to the South African
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  Speaker 2: Police Service spokesperson, she said that Karim was found with
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  Speaker 2: a return ticket. However, when the matter started in court,
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  Speaker 2: the prosecutors say Karim failed to produce a ticket. And
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  Speaker 2: once the matter had adjourned, a brief adjournment, his lawyers
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  Speaker 2: then produced the ticket. And here's version is that he
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  Speaker 2: wasn't asked for a ticket upon his arrest. They took
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  Speaker 2: his boarding passes. So no one asked him for a
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  Speaker 2: return ticket at all. And this is important because the
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  Speaker 2: court is seeking to establish whether he was planning to
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  Speaker 2: return to South Africa. The state has also told the
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  Speaker 2: court and submitted that Garim was found with, quote, a
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  Speaker 2: voluminous amount of luggage. And they say that it was
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  Speaker 2: five bags that he was found with. as he was
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  Speaker 2: traveling to Saudi Arabia. He was actually traveling to Dubai
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  Speaker 2: and then was planning to go to Saudi Arabia and
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  Speaker 2: then going to Pakistan. Now, according to Karim, all those
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  Speaker 2: bags had, 70% of the contents of those bags were
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  Speaker 2: snacks and sweets. And he says these are the things
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  Speaker 2: that he was planning to take to Saudi where he
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  Speaker 2: does some humanitarian work with his wife. And he says
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  Speaker 2: this is something that he does every year. And so
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  Speaker 2: the court has now heard all of these details from,
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  Speaker 2: about Karim's intention. And he insists that he's not a criminal.
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  Speaker 2: In fact, those were his words. I am not a criminal.
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  Speaker 2: I was not looking to evade. I was planning on
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  Speaker 2: coming back to South Africa.
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  Speaker 1: Let's just get some data perspective on this. When is
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  Speaker 1: he next due to either appear in court or before
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  Speaker 1: the Madlanga Commission? Because I must admit, I'm trying to
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  Speaker 1: understand what it is that he has done that's illegal.
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  Speaker 2: Well, in terms of his failure to appear before the
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  Speaker 2: Madlanga Commission, what was pronounced by the commission in August
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  Speaker 2: was that because he's failed on several occasions to make
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  Speaker 2: an appearance, The match has been referred to the NPA
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  Speaker 2: and to the police. So it seems that the Madagascar
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  Speaker 2: Commission had come to terms with the fact that Suleiman
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  Speaker 2: Karim was not going to be appearing. I mean, you
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  Speaker 2: may remember that he had told the commission that he
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  Speaker 2: was unwell. And then it was proposed or suggested by
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  Speaker 2: evidence leaders that he should be taken through a mental
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  Speaker 2: examination by a professional that is state approved. And Karim
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  Speaker 2: refused to get that mental examination. So in terms of
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  Speaker 2: the Malanga Commission, it was clear that he wasn't going
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  Speaker 2: to be going back to the Malanga Commission. Now, in
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  Speaker 2: terms of the matter here in court, the court says,
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  Speaker 2: or rather the state has said through the police spokesperson,
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  Speaker 2: that they had been repeatedly trying to find him. They
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  Speaker 2: say that they had, Kareem knew that police were looking
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  Speaker 2: for him. The officer that testified says Kareem told him
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  Speaker 2: today that he was aware that police were looking for him,
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  Speaker 2: but he still decided to embark on this trip. And
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  Speaker 2: what's being said by the state in terms of this
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  Speaker 2: charge is that he had failed to appear before the commission,
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  Speaker 2: and that is a contravention of the Commission's Act.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, one of the things that, I don't know
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  Speaker 1: if this was raised yet, but I'm sure will come
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  Speaker 1: up because a constant thread in all his engagements with
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  Speaker 1: the authorities and principally with the Madlanga Commission, Khmeltsin is
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  Speaker 1: his incredibly poor state of health. I mean, traveling to Dubai,
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  Speaker 1: onwards to wherever he's flying in Saudi Arabia, and then
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  Speaker 1: further to Pakistan. I mean, that's a lot of travel.
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  Speaker 1: Those are significant distances. He's traveling without his physician. who
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  Speaker 1: I heard him give evidence to say he consults with
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  Speaker 1: roughly once a week. Did he explain why a man
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  Speaker 1: whose health is as poor as his was willing and
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  Speaker 1: able to take a trip like this?
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  Speaker 2: That's also part of the contradiction that was identified and
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  Speaker 2: pointed out by the state, John, in that at some
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  Speaker 2: point in his testimony, he said he must admit that
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  Speaker 2: he was feeling a lot better. And he said that
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  Speaker 2: there was some sort of recovery for him. But then
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  Speaker 2: when prosecutors cross-examined him on that, he then said, no,
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  Speaker 2: he was starting to feel. So he said he wasn't
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  Speaker 2: feeling a lot better anymore, but he was starting to
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  Speaker 2: feel better. And you can hear that that's a theme
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  Speaker 2: that the prosecutors are looking to explore a lot more
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  Speaker 2: about his health. It came from his lawyers that he
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  Speaker 2: has heart conditions and he said that's been known by
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  Speaker 2: the Mazanga Commission and it's now been placed on record
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  Speaker 2: in the Pretoria Magistrates Court. And we heard them even
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  Speaker 2: say that he's got anxiety issues and that his arrest
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  Speaker 2: may trigger, through the stress, may trigger panic attacks. So
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  Speaker 2: in terms of his medical condition, the state insists there's
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  Speaker 2: contradiction as to whether he's actually ill or if he's
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  Speaker 2: feeling better, which is what he said today on the
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  Speaker 2: witness stand.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Very, very interesting day in the
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  Speaker 1: Pretoria Magistrates Court. More to come on Monday. It's 29
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  Speaker 1: minutes to four.