Latest / IMI Podcasts / #14: An EU Golden Visa in the Caribbean, Govt. Mandate Competition Heats Up, and Dominica Citizenship for $50k

Transcript

#14: An EU Golden Visa in the Caribbean, Govt. Mandate Competition Heats Up, and Dominica Citizenship for $50k · IMI Podcasts

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: Ladies and gentlemen, it's 7 p.m.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: in Dubai, 3 p.m.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: in Lisbon, 11 a.m.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: in St.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Kitts.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to a new episode of the Mobility Standard, the podcast where we dissect current events, trends, and crucial questions related to investment migration.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Christian Nessem, editor of Investment Migration Insider, and with me in today's episode I have my co-host Ahmad Abbas, as well as our guest this week, Mr.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: Kenneth Green of Advanced Global Partners, one of the few homegrown Caribbean firms involved in RCBI government advisory.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: We spoke to him about the latest updates on Dominica's planned entrepreneur visa, which will offer a two-year path to citizenship starting at just$50,000.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: What type of interest is the program getting and from whom?
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: And why shouldn't someone who wants Dominican citizenship just apply under the CIP instead?
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: We also discussed the recently revamped Curaçao Investor Permit Program, which curiously is an EU golden visa in the Caribbean.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Finally, we raised a number of questions regarding the recent growth of the number of firms directly advising governments on the launching of RCBI programs.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Virtually a duopoly just a few years ago, the RCBI government advisory market has seen 8 to 10 new entrants recently.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: What's behind this proliferation of firms seeking government mandates to launch programs?
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: How can the new market participants contend when they don't have the track record of the early movers in government advisory?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: And what are the new programs Kenneth and others are working on right now?
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: All of that and a great deal more in today's episode of the Mobility Standard.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'd like to remind you that you can follow all of IMI's stories on our website, imidale.com, on our mobile phone apps, in our free newsletters, as well as on your favorite social media network.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: You can also follow this podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and most other podcast platforms.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: With the preambles out of the way, let's get this show on the road.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: Kenneth Green.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: Incredibly happy to have you on the show finally.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: We have known each other for a few years now, and it's uh overdue your appearance here.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very glad to have you.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: We have a lot of topics lined up to talk about uh today, with I think a Caribbean perspective on things.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's good to have a Caribbean native on board, and especially I think one of the few Caribbean natives that's also actively involved in government advisory, which is a growing market within the RCBI space.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so we're looking forward to talking about that.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the show, Kenneth Green.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Christian, for having me on.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, kudos again to your outstanding work with IMI Daily.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think you need to be recognized for being an industry leader in a burgeoning industry.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't think you get that kudos enough.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: So again, kudos to you.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you're gonna make me blush.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's a good thing that this is not uh videotaped.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh thank you so much, nonetheless, uh Kenneth.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um so uh I think we should start by talking about some of the government advisory work that you've been doing.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we're gonna talk about Curaçao, we're gonna talk about Dominica.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: Let's start with Dominica.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: I remember it it's about a year ago, a little more than a year ago, news emerged about a new entrepreneur program in Dominica that offered a path to citizenship within two years for those who invested, I believe it was at least 50,000 US dollars and spent three months a year on the island.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: And since then, I haven't seen too many updates about it.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I wanted to check in with you and kind of understand the latest developments on the Dominique Entrepreneur Visa.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, is it is it launched finally?
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh has there been any uptake?
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, why don't you give us uh uh an update, Kenneth?
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, great, great for thanks for asking on that.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, it's something that I am passionate about, as you'll further discover.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it hasn't been launched yet.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: We are currently fielding um the pilot uh process.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: So we're going through into a pilot early next year.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and the reason it hasn't been launched is because the RBI, unlike a CBI program, requires residence on island.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: And we've had this thing called COVID, which has complicated pretty much everything, um, including obviously the ability to travel and to domicile in certain countries.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, ironically, had it been a CBI, we would have no problem because obviously you would not need to visit Dominica.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: But about a year ago, we started getting escalations in our cases, the protocol started being tightened down.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: So we thought it was not a good time to introduce this, given that part of the experience of being uh an RBI citizen within the program would be to be able to experience the island to consume goods and services and to be effectively integrated into the population.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: And about a year ago, the timeline that we were looking to go into that, that wasn't possible.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: So we're going to we've had quite a bit of interest, um, to be honest.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: And what we are going to do is to to soft-launch with a pilot, which will allow us to test much of what we are looking to do, and at the same time to give the benefits of the program to a smaller group of people early on, so we can iron out any kinks that there may be before we go into full hard launch.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: So when you say uh a pilot and a soft launch, what does that mean in practice?
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: Are you you're inviting a select group of people to apply before opening the program up to a wider audience?
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: Well, actually, there were people who applied and made inquiries into the program previously.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: So we've had a database of these inquiries.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: We're inviting a subset of these people to become part of a pilot program.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: And what the pilot will do is limit the options to the first option.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know that it was three tiers.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um the first before you before you go on to that, maybe you can just give us a refresher on the terms of the program, uh, just for for the benefit of the audience.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: Correct.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: There are three tiers to the program, and it it is residency by naturalization of the residency and then turning into national naturalization.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um it would it would mean that you the the applicant would have to spend a hundred days in one of in two years, and at the end of that period apply for naturalization.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: Why a hundred days?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: Because we wanted to do then simply meet the minimum of the OECD requirements, um, which is usually uh 90 days.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um so there is that.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um there are three tiers to which the applicant can apply.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: The first is to make a$50,000 donation into an investment fund, which is used for the entrepreneurs locally in Dominica to invest in their businesses.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a walk-away option, so to speak.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: You invest the money into that fund, the government takes possession of that fund and then uses that fund directly into the applicant entrepreneurs.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: The second tier would be where you have an applicant who wants to set up a new business in Dominica, which does not conflict with existing businesses.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: So, for example, you know, if you're going to be setting up a small retail shop, that obviously will not fly.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: But if you're coming in with something new like a like a recycling plant or another business type which is not which is needed by the government, then that will be a path.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: And the minimum um application cost for that is$100,000, and you have to employ at least three nationals.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then you you you basically apply for that route.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: And then the third route is where there's an existing uh entrepreneur in the island, an existing company who is looking to raise funds and is willing to give up equity in his um in his venture, where they would solicit finance from the applicant, and the applicant is comfortable because he'll have gotten all the audited financials and decides I want to invest in this company and will invest a minimum of$100,000 in an existing entity on Ireland that is qualified from the local end.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: So those are the three tiers.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um let me clarify.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: Let me let me ask some clarifying questions here.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: So the the first option is effectively a 50,000 donation to the government, correct?
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: So you're not in that case being an active investor.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so in that sense, so that part of the program is doesn't really have much to do with being an entrepreneur in Dominica.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's more supporting entrepreneurs indirectly in Dominica through a donation to the fund.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: Correct.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: Now let me give you a background for that quickly.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: The background is that there is tremendous liquidity in the banks in Dominica, but there's also a huge problem for young entrepreneurs in being able to get access to finance.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: And when I say um access to finance, we're not talking huge amounts of money.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: We're talking, you know, the equivalent of 10,000, 20,000 US a pop to start micro and small business ventures locally, which have a huge impact on not only their lives but on their communities.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: So you literally have a strong segment of entrepreneurs and small businesses who need cash, but because of the stringent uh local banking rules, uh have to collateralize everything down to their bones, and literally cannot get access to any kind of other finance because there's no grant or VC climate uh in the country.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: So this is basically there to service these small businesses who qualify on the local end as well.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: So there's an application process for them.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_02: They qualify on that side, and then they then become um viable to be able to receive some of those funds that are in that pool being invested or being donated by the by the applicants.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so the the second option, the second option, which is a a hundred thousand dollar investment, um you're you're investing, so you're starting a new business, or you or the third option, you can invest in uh you can invest in an existing business, a hundred thousand.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um but but why why should someone invest a hundred thousand in a local business or start up a local business for a hundred thousand and gain citizenship in two years rather than donate a hundred thousand under the citizenship by investment program and get citizenship immediately?
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: What are the that's a very good question.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the the key is this the the CBI citizens do not want to reside here.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: They don't want to come here, they don't even want to visit through the application process.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: We've got people that want to come and live here.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_02: We've got a couple of people who've come in the Safe in Nature program.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, all of these countries have uh produced digital work from home um programs where they've used it as a subset of their tourism packages.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: Dominica Zone is called the Safe in Nature, um, where people get visas to come in and work in Dominica from Dominica in an environment which has less COVID exposure and is more healthy and they they've got the same internet access, etc.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: So in this case, those people are people who have committed to coming to live in Dominica and are looking to change both their way of life and their base, their operating base for themselves and their families.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: And there's quite a few people who are interested in doing that.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: However, under our current naturalization platform, um currently, if you, Christian, were to move with your wife and were to move here, it would take you seven years before you could naturalize.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so this is an accelerated path based on someone making a substantial investment in a new business, again employing at least three locals, and they get the benefit of an accelerated, um, accelerated uh naturalization process.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, in terms of the clients, the clients tend to be specific people.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we have a couple of people who were here already.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: So they can't they'd come here and they're inquiring what we can do if we want to stay in this island and and and actually naturalize in this island?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, can we do a business here?
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: What kind of business can we do?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: We have our money and we don't we no longer want to go back to Czechoslovakia or sorry, the Czech Republic, or we don't want to go back to to Russia, or we don't want to go back to the UK, and we want to reside here.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: What options do we have?
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Christian, remember when Jordan first launched its C CIP and there were like 200 applicants within a few months.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: And we were all I'm I'm Jordanian, I was surprised because who the hell wants to come here?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: But the thing is, it did get a lot of applications, but then it clearly showed afterwards that all of these I won't I don't want to say all, the vast majority of these applicants already had businesses in Jordan.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: And when that pool dried up, nobody else came from outside.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think the same is gonna happen with uh Dominica or no?
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: This is a totally different thing because none of these people have got exposure.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, of the of the people, the first 25 uh you know, kind of inquiries, they hadn't even visited Dominica.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, a couple of them had visited, but the majority of them haven't visited.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: There's a small subset of those people who would be people who are um what I call digital tourists.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: So they want to be able to spend two or three years somewhere else working remotely, and they've decided whilst I'm going to be there for all that time, why don't I investigate the options of being able to naturalize?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that the comparison to Jordan works in this case because it's true, as you say, Ahmad, that that program, you know, citizenship by investment programs are supposed to attract investment to the country by promising people to become citizens.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: But what the Jordanian program has done, as far as I can tell, is it's just told investors who were already in the country, hey, would you also like citizenship?
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: On top of that, you've invested here for many years already.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Why don't you also take a citizenship?
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's I don't think it's attracting new investment.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because the Jordanian citizenship as such is not a step up for most people.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's where why I'm asking this.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I was raising the question.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if I'm an applicant and I'm saying, hey, either way I gotta spend$100,000.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I can either get citizenship right away or after two years with with you know uh I have to spend 100 days in Dominica.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh I I I can understand why an applicant might wonder, okay, well, what are the what are the advantages to the entrepreneur program?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: I guess the main thing is that there's the potential for making your money back, getting your money back, and maybe getting a return if you invest in the right business at$100,000.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: I don't even think so.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's just a different type of applicant.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's if you look at it at the analogous tourism, it's it's cruise ship versus stayover.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, a cruise ship tourist comes, he comes for a day, he does some day shopping, and he leaves.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: A stayover comes for two to four weeks and has a holiday, a proper holiday where he gets immersed in the country and he likes it, and he might actually come back.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: The cruise ship guy, when he goes next to have another cruise, he says, you know what, I've been there before, I don't want to go there.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: The the stayover tourists will say, you know what, I I have a desire to see this place again because I had a good time.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: The unlike the unlike this CIP, um, where you have to really market um to the traits, either real estate, etc.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: The guy who's coming for something like the entrepreneur visa is someone who knows what he wants but never knew he could get it there.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: So he's already coming with his mindset, and you're finding that the people who are coming are more uh debating hey, um, can I do it in one year instead of two?
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh can my children get it too?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: But they know what they want, they just didn't know where they were going to get it.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's a niche product.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: And if if I can you know supplement on that, because uh uh at my old company we used to work entrepreneur programs and the passive investment programs like the Golden Visa, the mindset I agree with Kenneth is is different.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: Entrepreneurs, it's more about the money than the you know, the citizenship, the passport.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: They they don't want to freeze their money, they don't want to lose their money, they want to make a profit on it while gaining something.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: So actually the immigration aspect becomes somewhat of a byproduct to a good investment.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: But let me ask you, Kenneth, because I was talking to a good friend of mine who's you know works in the company and is a marketing director, and we're talking about the types of clients.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: And he he says that most of their clients now that are coming in are mid-to-high mid-class people, not you know, ultra-high net worth individuals.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I think, Christian, you you got a totally different point from another person in the industry that they um but do you think this program will open the door to more mid-class entrepreneurs or people who you know just want to stop their day job and open up something for themselves?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: The answer is yes.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: I think it will, and it's by design I want it to be so.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um you know, I I I've said it before.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: This came, this entire thing came from an experience I had, an encounter I had with a Grenadian economist, and I hope he gets to listen one day, um, named Michael Julian.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: He probably won't even remember.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: We met on a flight where he was coming from doing a consultancy in Jamaica for the then government.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: And he made a point to me that um between 200 to 250 families um uh basically being resident in any of the Eastern Caribbean countries could supplant the entire tourism market.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: In other words, it can replace the revenue of the entire stayover and cruise ship market combined because those people would be in those islands consuming and being part of those economies and growing the economy organically.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: And it fascinated me.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I went and I did some more research, and then it dovetailed with the continued erosion of the middle class across the Eastern Caribbean, including Dominica, through high migration.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: Every time there's a disaster, every time there's a financial meltdown, which is always caused external to these islands, or there's even a recruitment drive.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: So, for example, often the UK and the US, and the UK actually more recently, will come looking to recruit teachers and also even nurses and doctors.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so they pull your best and the brightest, and they pull what would have been an emerging middle class.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: So we miss that, we we miss that group of people, and at the same time, in the Caribbean right now, in Dominica specifically, um our consumption tax um VAT is actually our fastest rising tax because we have a consumption economy.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um and what that means is that we need more consumers, we need more people in the middle tier to be able to grow the economy.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then the third point is one of the problems with the CBI, uh, one of the issues with the CBI that causes issues on the ground in these islands, and this is not common to Dominicans in all of them, is that the CBI money comes into government, and then government chooses the winners and the losers, so to speak.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: What it means is that whilst it's incredibly powerful, I mean, the public serving public sector's um wages in Dominica have never missed a beat, even after disasters like Erica and Maria.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, public servant salaries never stopped.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's extremely powerful, but it what it means is that the private sector and the average man on the street.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: It gets to see less benefits directly quicker.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I think that's an excellent point.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we should we should pause on that for a moment and think about what it means.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's true, as you say, you know, the money comes in via government, and then government gets to decide how to spend that money.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: They get to, as you say, pick the winners and the losers.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: And historically, that's not government strong suit, right?
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Picking winners and losers.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: The market is best at picking winners and losers because they have real feedback through pricing mechanisms and so on.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: What we've seen in Dominica, and this is a little bit particular to Dominica, is that a lot of that money that has come in in the form of donations has been used on sort of Keynesian types of projects like social housing, for example.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: And that's uh another building the airport, obviously, and that's something that you know, infrastructure projects that might be tricky in a very small country like Dominica to leave up to the private sector.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe only the government is big enough to have, you know, to collect that much capital in such a small economy.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the the the Dominica, um, the Dominican government is a Labour Party, and it is a derivative of the British Labour Party.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: So it is really a democratic socialist party.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's left of center, and it favors the working class.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I believe a dual existence between the UK and Dominica, and the UK Labour Party has always been critiqued for being the party of welfare, the party of the working class, the party of the public sector and infrastructure.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's the same thing you would say about the Dominica Labour Party, but except that the private sector, to be fair to the government, has not invested in the infrastructure or done much philanthropic work based around the working class.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: So it's all been left to government.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: So housing has been a perennial issue, and obviously, air access is a critical issue for the government.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: I think, though, the bigger issue was is coming back to a conversation I had a few years ago with Judith Gold, who was then the deputy um president of the IMF, and she pointed out that she was uncomfortable with the fact that the islands use their programs revenue for recurrent expenditure, recurrent revenue.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: And the truth is they don't have a choice.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: And if you have to give the Dominican government um kudos, it would be there because I mean we when Maria hit uh Christian and Ahmad, nothing was functioning.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we had nothing.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: And yet, you know, even through when no one had roofs on their heads, no water, no electricity, you know, public servants were getting paid salaries.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: So by the time the the private sector came back up four or five months later, people actually had money to consume goods and services, which was extraordinary.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what brought back the economy.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: The weakness of the CBI as it is is because that money is needed for the public sector, not wanted, it's needed, then the private sector services that like what the entrepreneur visa is targeting, don't get much of a look in because the priority has to be to the public sector and the overall economy.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not really a it's not really a design, it's it's they don't have a choice.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: I think if if we had a burgeoning tourism infrastructure and an existing international airport, etc., then the government could be more adventurous.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: They can't.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think this is where we come in, and and and because I am private sector, the government has welcomed it because they've continually said we want to do public-private sector partnerships, but no one is stepping forward.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm stepping forward and saying, here you go, support this.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: Let me let me put this on the platform and let's see um a new middle class emerge as well as new consumers who are willing to stay in the country and build it along with the rest of us.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, look, I and I can totally see how building something like an airport, in an international airport in Dominica, which will cost uh a billion, two billion dollars to build, um, there there are no capital bases in Dominica that are big enough to take on that on their own.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not a question, I think, of willingness on the part of the private sector.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's more there's there's simply nobody who has accumulated enough capital to even get uh you know 70% loan to value to build an airport.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: So the government that must kind of fall to the government.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it must fall to the government.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: Even more so, though, it it's an ideal vehicle for it, to be honest, because the IMF has given Dominique and all of the other Eastern Caribbean countries a target of bringing their debt to GDP below 70% by 2030.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: And now they've extended it because of COVID to 2035.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: Now, can you imagine what an airport will do to our debtor GDP?
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: Because the government will have to get a sovereign guarantee to get a loan.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, St.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: Vincent nearby built an airport recently, they don't have a CBI, and they are going to be in some serious trouble because they've taken a number of different financing vehicles, loans, some of it is grants, but they're on the hook.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so that is a big differentiator because all of these islands fight a constant uh battle against debt.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: It seems like you guys did this.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, the entire design is different.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: You have a different type of client, you have a different objective for the program.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: My only question is will the same agents of the Dominican CBI be able to market this to their clients, or will you find new agents to do this?
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: That's a very good question, Ahmad.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, our preference, um, and I say preference because it's all going to be decided through the pilot process, our preference is for local agents as well.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and because the local it's different because these people are coming to live in Dominica.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's one thing to have an overseas agent working, you know, with this program, but a local agent has to receive these people, these guys will need services, they'll need to rent a car, they'll need to buy a uh either buy a house or rent a house.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: They need real people on ground working with them.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_02: And we feel that the benefit should be to work with credible local agents, people who are domiciled and living in Dominica, because that's where all the action is going to be.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but but but I think but I think more specifically, the question is are the people who are currently accredited local agents under the CIP going to have that license transferred to cover also the entrepreneur program automatically?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: Or do they need to pay a separate fee or qualify separately?
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: It'll qualify separately, and as I said, with bias will be too because in Dominica, unlike Green Aid and Antigua, we have one mix.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, local agents are international agents, they're all in one.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: In this program, it won't be so.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the the preference is to move uh solely to locally domiciled agents, so there'll be a separate process.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so we talked about the private sector's role in citizenship by investment in Dominica, and um there, okay, it's the the government basically decides on the design of the program, and they enlist the help of the private sector to bring clients.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: But I want to talk about another program in which the role of the private sector has been more involved from the beginning in the actual shaping of the program, and also I believe in the processing of applications, as far as I understand.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's in Curacao.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: Now, this is this was also a 2020 thing where you um you launched it, it was a soft launch, I believe.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I I I want to get an update from you on the Curacao Investor Permit Program.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: To me, it's an extremely interesting program because it has certain unique aspects about it.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: First thing you have to understand about Curacao is that it's not a country in the conventional sense of the word.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's a country in the in it's as much a country as Jersey and the Channel Islands is a country.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: They're not, I mean, they have domestic autonomy, they fully control their domestic policies, uh including taxation, but their foreign policy and their immigration, that's kind of controlled by the mother country, which in Curacao's case is the Kingdom of the Netherlands.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: Now, what that means is that in effect, Curacawans don't have their own citizenship.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: They are Dutch citizens, which makes them, by extension, European, EU citizens.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so what we have what we have in the in Curaçao is effectively an EU golden visa, which a path to EU citizenship.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, number one, can you just quickly uh go over the basics of the Curacao Investor Program?
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: How do you qualify, and what's the path to permanent residency in Curacao and eventually going on to citizenship of the Netherlands?
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then tell me what has the uptake been so far.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so first of all, the program has been in existence since 2014.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: What is different and what we've launched is a new component to it and to bring some new energy to it.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: And it's kind of like the hidden secret of the CIP market.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um there are three different ways you can qualify for the investment on this.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: The first is acquisition of real estate, um, and the second is a business investment, and the third is, and where we've come in is the acquisition of securities traded on the Dutch Caribbean Securities Exchange.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: So um, so you've got specific um um uh securities available, and if you invest in those securities, you can qualify just as if you made an investment in real estate.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: Now, in terms of the options available, you have a three-year renewable investment permit for a minimum investment of$280,000, you've got a five-year renewable residence permit for a minimum investment of$425,000, and then you've got an immediate, indefinite residence permit for a minimum investment of$850,000.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: So those are the frameworks.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_02: And you mentioned in your preamble um where Curoso sits.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: If you were to look at a program that's analogous to it, it would be Anguilla, because Anguilla, which is offered by Latitude, is pretty much the same thing except it has a path to British citizenship.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: And a very different level of minimum investment as well, much higher.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_02: Correct, much higher.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the other interesting thing about the Curoso program that you may not know because it's not known, is that your qualification period can be served in any of the Dutch territories.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: So you know you've got to be an Aruba.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: I can be in Aruba then, or in in Amsterdam.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, in Amsterdam.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: So you can get your your permits in Kirosso and then decide I want to spend my time in St.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: Martin.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: And qualify at the end of the five years, in the sixth year, you have to do the Dutch language test, um, which is the requirement for any citizen, um, and then you you you get your Dutch citizenship, and the Dutch passport is now rated number three in the world, so it's extremely attractive.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: The the other thing that's extremely important is that there's no restrictions on any countries.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, many of these programs have bars on certain countries.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: There's none with uh KSO.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, QSO has a small Iranian community, you know.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um so it is it is a pretty liberal program.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's stringent, but it's liberal at the same time.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um the forms are relatively simple, and then you've got you've got really uh what I call a climate in Curazo.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: Curaçao is very close to Venezuela.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's got a retired Dutch citizen who move there and invest and retire there.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um so it's got a mix.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: You've got people from Venezuela, you've got you know Latin Americans who come to that market as well, uh Cubans, you've got people from Europe.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a pretty eclectic mix of an island.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so because of that, it makes it a very different environment.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's got even a small Chinese community, um, you know, so it's it's it's it's modern throwback, but at the same time it's it's Caribbean.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: So so you have a minimum investment there of 280,000.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's if we in you in euro terms, that would make it you know roughly on par with the Greek golden visa, where you know in Greece the path to EU citizenship is at least at least seven years, if not more.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and obviously I think it's a lot more difficult to learn Greek than it is to learn Dutch.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: I maybe maybe I you know I'm Norwegian, so maybe I'm just saying that uh maybe it's just easier for me.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: But there is, I mean, this means that it it compares relatively favorably to the EU golden visas, although not to the Portuguese, because the the Portuguese Golden Visa has very, very lax physical physical presence requirements in terms of getting to uh to the citizenship, whereas in Curacao uh you do need to be physically present within the Kingdom of the Netherlands for for some period.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: But there is one other advantage uh to the Curacao program that I think we need to mention, but cautiously, um, and I think we need to speak in euphemisms here, because in Curaçao, at least for the securities investment option, there will be um let's say there are unofficial accommodations will be made along the lines of the model in the in the Quebec IIP program, so that you may not have to come up with the full 280,000 right away.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll I'll leave it at that.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to be more explicit.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you very much, Christian.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: That's why you are the leader in this industry in publicizing and promoting this this this this this platform.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yes, you're right.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, we are working currently on the DCSX, uh, there's the Kiroso International Holdings um symbol CWIN, and we're working with them.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: There is interest already.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um and the securities are relatively flexible in that the the promoters of these programs are the ones who hold the CAN.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: So they qualify the applicants and see who is worth taking a risk on in terms of how they want to finance their entry into the platform.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: And that is something that we take extremely seriously because obviously it's a securities investment, and the promoter wants to make money.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: So let's not get it twisted.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone wants to do well onto this.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_02: And the Curoso program isn't a quick fix.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: I want to mention this.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a quick fix.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_02: You're going to have to spend substantial time in Curoso.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the the Dutch would prefer you spend up to nine months a year, though you know you can spend a minimum of four months, but they would like you to spend up to nine months a year in there for the qualification period for the time.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but where it fits, and I mentioned this earlier, and Ahmad would appreciate this, especially for people where their nationalities may incur a level of extra scrutiny, um, where there may be barriers put up for certain nationalities.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: They don't have that with Curoso, they don't have prejudices against specific nationalities.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_02: They examine each case merit by merit.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: And this is something the industry needs to start to do because for too long different programs have discriminated against nationalities rather than focusing on the merits of each individual.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Kenneth, I know that advanced global partners are increasingly active in the government advisory space.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the first time I heard about you getting into that space was with the Entrepreneur Visa in Dominica and then the Curaçao program.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um without revealing too much, what can you tell us about new programs that you're currently working on?
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: I know you've mentioned to me in confidence something before.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know to what degree you're prepared to talk about it publicly, but what can you tell us?
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: I can tell you that I can I can tell you the jurisdiction, an African program.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that's that's going to be nouveau.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh but we're still in the process of because you know the there's been elections, recent elections in in the jurisdictions, and so therefore it takes time for you to basically go through the bureaucracy, and bureaucracy is the key word here.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um the the the key thing that we're observing is that uh more and more countries are looking not just to supplement their income through having new citizenship programs, but to consider having new citizens.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why I'm extremely bullish.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: I said it before I came on this call, I'm extremely bullish on RBIs um uh going forward.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: Why?
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: Because the world is again going through change, and when the world is going through change, people tend to think of where they want to be domiciled or where they want to be able to locate their assets.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes the two may coincide and sometimes they may not.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so there is going to be growth in particular areas.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_02: There's one other jurisdiction we've been speaking to, but this is going to be much longer term because of it's the it's such a significant jurisdiction that if it does happen, then it will have to be, it may likely turn into a bidding war.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I therefore I can't mention it here.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_02: But I would say the interest level for new programs is that is not just simply about making additional revenues from the intake of applying for these programs, but of creating new citizens who are going to add new layers of consumption of asset management services within those jurisdictions from being domiciled there.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_02: And that's something that I think has value and is going to also create um new challenges as well as opportunities.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: Now that we're speaking about government advisory, I recall, you know, when when I first started out in this industry, almost seven years ago now, um, there there were really only two firms properly active in that space.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: There was Henley Partners and to a lesser extent, Art and Capital.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: But now it seems that there are many new players in that government advisory space.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: CS Global has been very active, especially on the marketing side in many of the Caribbean jurisdictions.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: Latitude, as you mentioned, in Anguilla, and possibly elsewhere.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Apex Capital, uh, where you used to work, I believe, um, Kenneth, in uh they are you know uh one of the three um designated agents in Montenegro.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um Harvey Law Group, um and together with Bayad Legal and Amara Group in North Macedonia, and now advanced global partners in Dominica and Curacao.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: I know a few other companies that uh are discussing and working on new programs as well, but I can't really say more than that uh right now, uh other than that one of them is working on a CIP in the Americas.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna be more specific, and then another one is working on a CIP, very close to launching a CIP in Europe.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sworn to secrecy as regards the details.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: But um my question is why do you think that we've seen a proliferation in market participants in the government advisory field in recent years?
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: Why has it gone from being sort of a duopoly to being now a more diverse market?
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: What more people are kind of daring to take that step or having The confidence to say, you know what, we can also deal directly with heads of state.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think that one of the major reasons, and one of the reasons I think I'm one of the things I think I pay attention to is that it's not a one-size-fits-all scenario for these countries.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: Countries are extremely, I mean, citizenship and national and nationality is a sovereignty question, and people can become extremely passionate about it.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_02: As well as governments really want to craft their own path.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_02: In the past, people more were focused on how do we get in the revenue.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: Now people have to consider all kinds of different new social realities that the rights of being a citizen bestow on the applicant.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_02: So, what in many ways you're finding is that people are very wary about companies that are doing five, six, seven jurisdictions because they're worried about them actually having the ability to craft something specific to their circumstances and needs.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's something that we are focused on.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not as much focused on being a front for these programs in terms of the marketing end so much as I am in interested in crafting solutions that are going to actually be unique to the needs of the country.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_02: So when we look at a country, we're looking at what exactly is the problem?
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: What are you trying to solve?
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_02: What are you trying to do by bringing in this program?
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, in some cases, a CS Global or Henley and partner, because they're so huge, I mean, we're small fry in the industry, they will provide a service that these countries want because it fits within the cookie-cutter of service that they're providing.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: But for us, it's different.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's we get time to be able to study the market, we get to study the people, and we also get a chance to be able to pull up and say, hey, you know, maybe you might want to differentiate yourself from these other 20 other jurisdictions by doing X, Y, and Z.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: And that's more of a priority for these countries nowadays.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_02: So they're looking for new players with new ideas.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's the main thing.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: Is that so so you're saying also then that that it's kind of these countries want to be made to feel like they are special and not just another client, right?
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of like the same way that if if I'm gonna choose an accounting firm for IMI, I I might go with a mom and pop store rather than go to KPMG, right?
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's exactly what the issue is.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I I think if you look at the Caribbean, I mean, if one player has four or five different islands, how do you differentiate them?
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_02: And what is the differentiation of the service?
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: And you've seen scenarios where and how do you know, and how do you know that they have your best interest at heart when they're also promoting your competitors, right?
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_02: You said it, I didn't.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, but but the the the the the the overall question has to be how do you best serve these countries as clients and how do you shape new programs in them?
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_02: I keep on looking at the demographics, I look at the social issues in each of the countries.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, how do you deal with with so many new things that are happening?
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we we don't need to to broach it here, but we you once spoke about gay marriage, you also spoke about um, you know, I mean, you have you have a new world where where there's um transsexuality is becoming, you know, part of the norm.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_02: Then you've got migrants, you've got stateless individuals, you've got new conflict zones, which weren't conflict zones before.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: Do you classify people?
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_02: And then we have what we saw earlier, which is do you do you um um classify countries out of the general sanctions being applied by, for example, the US on them?
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, or do you treat people separately and create a niche industry for people who are genuine, law-abiding applicants, but just generally unfortunately born in certain jurisdictions?
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_02: So there's so many different aspects that um that can that can be brought to fore.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: And each country has to have specific solutions.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_02: That's my that's my mantra.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_02: You it's not a one-size fit-all industry.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_02: Different countries have got different purposes, and we need to be able to present solutions that fit.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: Let me ask you this.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, last year, um, Kenneth, you wrote an article in IMI entitled, Most CBI Know-how is in the Caribbean.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_01: Why are we leaving program creation to Europeans?
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_01: And it's true, no region has as much long-term experience with especially citizenship by investment, but it's typically left up to European firms to design and implement those programs.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you think that's the case?
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: And is that changing now?
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: Is it only you at Advanced Global Partners, which is a homegrown Caribbean outfit doing government advisory, or are you seeing more Caribbean firms getting involved in that?
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't know of any others, to be honest, but I do know that some are silently giving advice.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, not as formally, but they're silently giving advice.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there's a couple of reasons, and one of the reasons is the political culture because there tends to not be continuity when government changes, you have a whole new cadre of people who come in, um, and you need to have the comfort to have the base to expand out, and that's the other thing.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think that jurisdictions tend to celebrate or tend to cater to people who come from other jurisdictions.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's one of those things, you know, the old saying that, you know, a hero is never really celebrated in his own home place, you know.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um and you tend to find that I I, for one, tend to find that there's there's a great appreciation when you go into other jurisdictions and you're presenting a fresh viewpoint.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so that that gives a relative advantage.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, in terms of the Caribbean countries, I think a lot of it is down to the fact that not many of the Caribbean professionals who have the expertise have stepped out of their comfort zone yet to go external to the Caribbean.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_02: So that will happen.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_02: I will see it happen as new jurisdictions tend to become in play, but you will still find that the existing players will will dominate primarily because they have that CV.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, for a new country, when they're launching a service like this, one of the things they need to know is that people have experience in the programs.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's I think the biggest issue.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think some of the other jurisdictions, especially in what I call the non-aligned countries, you know, if Latin America and you know other Caribbean islands, new Caribbean islands, or more importantly, um Africa and the Middle East, etc., start to to launch, they may give credence to new players.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_02: But the the the existing players have a lot of clout because they've got they've they they passed the sniff test, so to speak.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_02: They've been there for a while.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's it for today, folks.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_01: But we'll be back soon with another episode of the Mobility Standard.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_01: In the meantime, I encourage you, the listener, to send us the questions you have about investment migration.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_01: If we're able to answer them, we'll do so during our next episode.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: I want to remind you to follow our work on imidaily.com, the world's number one publication for investment migration, home to the internet's greatest collection of investment migration data, real estate, expert opinion, and the intelligence you need to be a successful investment migration professional.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening.