Latest / Arroe Collins Like It's Live / Toward The Turning When Culture And Psychology Dance From Scott Gibbs

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Toward The Turning When Culture And Psychology Dance From Scott Gibbs · Arroe Collins Like It's Live

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  Speaker 1: Hello and good morning. How's everybody doing today?
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  Speaker 2: You're doing great. How are you?
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  Speaker 1: Absolutely fantastic. Scott, man, this is going to be like Halloween,
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  Speaker 1: isn't it? I mean, this is like the actual scariest
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  Speaker 1: part of our lives right now, not on the 31st.
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  Speaker 2: I like it. That's good. Absolutely.
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  Speaker 1: Man, I just love the idea that you've had your
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  Speaker 1: ear on the heartbeat of where we presently stand because,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, there's still a lot of people that I
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  Speaker 1: bump into that just don't feel like that. In fact,
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  Speaker 1: I just did a big story on iHeartRadio that I go,
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  Speaker 1: prayer and voting, do we really have a voice? And oh,
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  Speaker 1: my God, was I ever put in my place for saying, no,
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  Speaker 1: we don't.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, my God. Oh, gosh.
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  Speaker 3: What was the what was the feedback?
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  Speaker 1: Well, the feedback was based on that, you know, that
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  Speaker 1: prayer is for basically for your spiritual growth. And then
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  Speaker 1: you're and then for for voting is for your physical growth.
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  Speaker 1: And basically, all I was trying to do was stir
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  Speaker 1: the pot to get people to understand that your voice
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  Speaker 1: does count. And that if you're going to sit around
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  Speaker 1: thinking that, oh, nobody cares about me, poor, poor, pitiful me. Well,
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  Speaker 1: then there you go. Prayer and voting are one and
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  Speaker 1: the same. You can't be heard then. Okay, I'm going
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  Speaker 1: to go with it. And boy, that stirred the pot, dude.
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  Speaker 2: I see. I get it.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Well, I guess we can all sort of like learn
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  Speaker 3: helplessness around the political stuff. We just feel like we
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  Speaker 3: have no power and ultimately we're going to get what
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  Speaker 3: we get, I guess, at some level. I mean, if
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  Speaker 3: I understand what the feedback was.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's almost like we're letting these news networks
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  Speaker 1: decide for us. Well, these polls say they... I mean,
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  Speaker 1: it's like yesterday when I was watching NBC, they said,
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  Speaker 1: this is our last poll until the elections.
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  Speaker 3: Good.
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  Speaker 1: Go away. I don't want you to be on my
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  Speaker 1: TV anymore.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Well, I was on a podcast maybe two weeks ago
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  Speaker 3: or something, and they were just like... Can't we just
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  Speaker 3: all go outside and play or something like that? Just
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  Speaker 3: settle this down a little bit. It's like a national
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  Speaker 3: obsession at some level. It's just not healthy. But, you know,
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  Speaker 3: it was a side note, I guess, to some degree
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  Speaker 3: to what we were talking about.
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  Speaker 1: Well, what was it like for you to write this?
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  Speaker 1: Because to me, this is a very big dear future
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  Speaker 1: reader kind of moment. It's almost like you're inspiring this generation,
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  Speaker 1: but you're also having to reach that next one.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, I guess I hadn't I don't it's interesting.
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  Speaker 3: I don't I hadn't really thought about it that way exactly.
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  Speaker 3: I guess I just sort of like, you know, how
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  Speaker 3: can I help in this point in time? And, you know,
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  Speaker 3: I wrote the book about 9-11, the war on terror
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  Speaker 3: and sort of this, you know, the West versus the
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  Speaker 3: Islamic world. But, you know, the more I was into it.
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  Speaker 3: you can see the same patterns in left and right
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  Speaker 3: here domestically. And, you know, it's a huge problem, obviously, at.
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  Speaker 2: This point in time.
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  Speaker 3: So it just kind of, things naturally pivoted after 9-11.
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  Speaker 3: You know, people wanted to talk more about, you know,
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  Speaker 3: what was going on with the election.
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  Speaker 2: So here I am to a degree.
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  Speaker 3: And I hadn't really thought about it in terms of generational,
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  Speaker 3: just sort of, you know, how do we stop this
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  Speaker 3: pattern that is not really working for us?
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  Speaker 1: So- Well, there's a new little kind of something weird
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  Speaker 1: going on inside this pattern, and I hope to God
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  Speaker 1: it doesn't become the addiction, because it was really weird
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  Speaker 1: to hear all of these gambling apps talk about, you
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  Speaker 1: can vote for the one that you want and see
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  Speaker 1: if you can make some money on it, too.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, gosh.
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  Speaker 1: And they're betting on the candidates, and I'm going, is
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  Speaker 1: that really where we want to go with this? Yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 2: No, that's right. That's interesting.
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  Speaker 3: It's sort of like the worst of our culture to
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  Speaker 3: some degree. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: You know, make money, you.
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  Speaker 3: Know, kind of stimulation coupled with, you know, the important,
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  Speaker 3: you know, it takes away from the importance of what
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  Speaker 3: we're doing at some level in voting and who we,
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  Speaker 3: who we, you know, have, you know, running the country. So,
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  Speaker 3: you know, yeah. Sort of, it's a bit of a
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  Speaker 3: mirror to culture, I guess is what I would say.
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  Speaker 3: It's a little disturbing, as you point out.
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  Speaker 1: Do you think that affordability is really the never-ending war?
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I realize that Ronald Reagan had the war
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  Speaker 1: against drugs and we've had different wars and stuff like that,
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  Speaker 1: but it seems like every time we turn around, the
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  Speaker 1: new war is affordability.
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  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I don't, you know, it's always there because
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  Speaker 3: it always is critical to, you know, the electorate on
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  Speaker 3: both sides, right? And meaning, you know, what's my life
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  Speaker 3: like economically? But then it raises so many issues related
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  Speaker 3: to it of around fairness versus and sort of safety
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  Speaker 3: for voters. you know, the lower classes, like, you know,
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  Speaker 3: the impoverished versus, you know, I'm free to, you know,
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  Speaker 3: run my life the way I want to run it to,
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  Speaker 3: you know, drive to be successful and powerful if I
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  Speaker 3: want to be in those kinds of, differing values bump
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  Speaker 3: up against each other it gets charged in the context
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  Speaker 3: of like well you know our country is really centered
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  Speaker 3: around economics in a way and um and you know
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  Speaker 3: it gets to be this issue that comes up constantly
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  Speaker 3: and we don't we don't know we don't know how
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  Speaker 3: to talk about it right and that's really the point
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  Speaker 3: of where i am now we just haven't we haven't
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  Speaker 3: figured out how to bridge the divide of our values
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  Speaker 3: uh and talk about things constructively so that we can
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  Speaker 3: actually solve these problems. I mean, at some level, economics
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  Speaker 3: is like, you know, it's supply and demand. It's not
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  Speaker 3: very complicated, right? It's like, you know, you want prices
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  Speaker 3: to go down, you got to pull some of those levers. And,
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  Speaker 3: you know, at half the time, we're not even talking
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  Speaker 3: about the levers. We're talking about whether something's fair or not,
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  Speaker 3: or who it's going to harm, et cetera.
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  Speaker 2: So, you know, and we get caught.
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  Speaker 3: In these cycles where we're not connected, we're not problem-solving.
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  Speaker 1: You know, one of the most fascinating things, and I
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  Speaker 1: guarantee it's because of your book, that I've spent the
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  Speaker 1: past week and a half just going around to different precincts.
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  Speaker 1: I've already voted. And the thing is, though, I'm going
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  Speaker 1: now to just listen, to stand in that line just
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  Speaker 1: to listen to people talk. Oh, my God. Scott, you're
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  Speaker 1: spot on with a lot of your stuff, dude. Oh,
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  Speaker 1: my God. I just want to hand them the book,
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  Speaker 1: but they won't let me do that kind of stuff
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  Speaker 1: in line. But it's fun just to be there. And
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  Speaker 1: then when it comes time for me going in the building,
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  Speaker 1: you know, say, oh, man, I forgot my license.
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  Speaker 3: I got to go.
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  Speaker 1: And then you walk away. But the thing is, is
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  Speaker 1: that I'm still there as a listener because I want
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  Speaker 1: to know what my community is saying.
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  Speaker 2: Okay. Yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Right. And it brings, I mean, I can imagine in
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  Speaker 3: your position, it's great to get that kind of information
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  Speaker 3: from people and to hear, I mean, is it mostly grumbling?
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  Speaker 3: Is it sort of complaining and anger at generally, or
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  Speaker 3: is it the other side?
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  Speaker 2: Do you have a sense for that?
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  Speaker 1: I think people are not finally tuned into the educational
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  Speaker 1: part of it all. In other words, they think they
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  Speaker 1: did the homework and they probably did by watching the
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  Speaker 1: commercials on TV, but they're not digging in. I'm not
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  Speaker 1: hearing the deep, intense conversations that That you and I
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  Speaker 1: could probably jump into. And it's like, okay, where are
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  Speaker 1: we missing the boat here that they really are listening
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  Speaker 1: to these things or these things that are popping up
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  Speaker 1: on social media as clickbait?
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  Speaker 3: Uh-huh. Yeah, that's the level of the understanding of what's
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  Speaker 3: going on.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really, that's hard. That's tough.
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  Speaker 3: You know, we don't do ourselves a service by the
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  Speaker 3: way we understand, you know, the information we consume around
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  Speaker 3: these issues, right? Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: To some degree, it's the media.
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  Speaker 3: To some degree, it's our own attention span and the
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  Speaker 3: world we live in and the social media, et cetera.
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  Speaker 3: So there's a number of different factors there. But, you know,
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  Speaker 3: I mean, are people really motivated to dig in deep?
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  Speaker 3: You know, it's unclear to me. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: One of the things, I mean, during the lockdown, I
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  Speaker 1: wanted to go out and get a real essential job.
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  Speaker 1: Being in radio, that's not a real job to me.
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  Speaker 1: So therefore, I went out and I got a job
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  Speaker 1: at a grocery store where I just wanted to be
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  Speaker 1: with people. And one of the things that I really
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  Speaker 1: do try to bring up, and I love the fact
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  Speaker 1: that you put this in your book, 84% of us
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  Speaker 1: say that the economy shapes how we place a vote.
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  Speaker 1: But I always like to take it to people and
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  Speaker 1: to this level. what are you doing today at work?
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: Oh man, we're going to have a great date. No,
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  Speaker 1: you didn't answer the question. What is, because we're all struggling.
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  Speaker 1: It's like, I want to hear other people bleed basically that, okay,
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  Speaker 1: it is a crap day because we're not going to
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  Speaker 1: change until we all start singing the same tune.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, what do you think that tune is that,
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  Speaker 2: that we ought to be singing?
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  Speaker 1: I want to know why my mom and dad had
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  Speaker 1: hope back there in the silent generation and we don't
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  Speaker 1: have hope today. I want to know why I don't
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  Speaker 1: see hope.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Do you have a theory on why that is? I mean,
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  Speaker 2: I'm just sort of grounding myself in where you are.
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  Speaker 1: The candy-coated plastic bathroom mirror smile?
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  Speaker 2: Which is what?
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  Speaker 1: Which is basically, you know, I always look at the people,
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  Speaker 1: you know, they go into the bathroom, they put on
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  Speaker 1: that fake smile, they do their selfies, they do it,
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  Speaker 1: you know, and, you know, we're taught at work, you know,
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  Speaker 1: come on, you know, what was it? Ricardo Montalban, smiles, everybody, smiles. Well,
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  Speaker 1: then all of a sudden we all started smiling and
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  Speaker 1: it didn't matter what was going on in the world
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  Speaker 1: with the Brady Bunch, everything was good.
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  Speaker 3: Hmm. As opposed to sort of seeing the world as
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  Speaker 3: it is, you know, a little more steely-eyed and putting
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  Speaker 3: your nose down and, you know, going out and doing
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  Speaker 3: what you need to do kind of thing.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, because survival is a big thing. You're not going to,
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  Speaker 1: oh my God, where was I at recently where I
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  Speaker 1: said that, oh, oh, I was just talking with somebody.
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  Speaker 1: about the new jimmy stewart movie where he sacrificed his
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: hollywood career and and and to go to war and
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: and i literally wanted to ask that question of how
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  Speaker 1: many people would actually do that today and i'll bet
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  Speaker 1: you it'd be one or two percent if even that.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah yeah have our values changed such that we're, you know, to,
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  Speaker 4: to some degree, I mean, what, what, what would we
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  Speaker 4: think about that as like, uh, I mean, are we
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  Speaker 4: entitled to some degree?
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  Speaker 3: Are we not as hardy as we used to be?
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  Speaker 3: Are we not as self-sacrificing as we used to be?
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  Speaker 3: I mean, it's, uh, I, I, I'm also kind of
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  Speaker 3: a believer in, um, you know, we don't go back. Right.
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  Speaker 2: So the question is, what are we going to become
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  Speaker 2: at this, at this point?
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  Speaker 3: And I'm waiting for somebody to sort of stand up
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: there with a, you know, the, Statue of Liberty torch
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  Speaker 3: and sort of saying, you know, this way, please, because
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: this is, you know, inspire us and, you know, you
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: can all get behind this. And I think we're longing
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  Speaker 3: for that at some level, that kind of hope that,
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  Speaker 3: you know, to something that's better. Well, it's tricky to
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  Speaker 3: the world with AI and everything going on. I mean,
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  Speaker 3: it's the world feels very uneasy in a way.
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  Speaker 1: Well, see, that's one of the things that I wanted
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  Speaker 1: to talk about as well, the way that these politicians
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  Speaker 1: are letting AI technology do their paraphernalia, basically, and to
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: do their advertising. And I'm sitting there looking at those
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: things going, your AI sucks because it doesn't look like you.
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  Speaker 1: You better correct that because this voter is going, ah, ah.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not real. No, I get it.
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  Speaker 3: You know, it's interesting because it's– It's an amazing tool, right?
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  Speaker 3: And I kind of think about it in the context
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  Speaker 3: of division between right and left. And the beauty of
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: it would be you know, you can use it to
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  Speaker 3: sort of ground yourself in, okay, what's the best thing
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  Speaker 3: here for the greater.
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  Speaker 2: Good, right?
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: And both sides can look at that and say, okay,
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  Speaker 3: I don't love parts of this, but yeah, that seems reasonable, right?
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  Speaker 3: I'm not saying it's going to give you every answer,
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  Speaker 3: but it can be something that can take some of
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  Speaker 3: the you know, it can help with the negotiation that
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  Speaker 3: needs to happen around when people have different sets of values.
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  Speaker 2: The problem is you need people who are.
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  Speaker 3: Willing to, you know, adhere to the, are willing to
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  Speaker 3: sacrifice to some degree, right? And sort of say, okay,
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: for the greater good, I'm willing to do this, as
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: opposed to, you know, dig into their own positions and,
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: you know, It's my way of a highway to some degree.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: Well, see, and that's the reason why I keep listening
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: for people to say, I built a cellar so we
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: can do some more canning. And I'm going, okay, now
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: we're getting into the deep, dark stuff where we're starting
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: to take care of ourselves. And it's not like, well,
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: I'm going to go do a quick trip to the
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: grocery store and pick up what I need, which I
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: think is the reason why when you talk about the
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: rent cap and everything, is that I'm going, okay, now
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: we're in touch with something because this is where we're people,
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: where people are being effective. I see what people are
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: paying for rent because they've got to come and get
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: their money orders. I know what they're forking out. And
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: I look at them and I go, don't judge a
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: book by its cover. Don't do it. Don't do it.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: But where the hell are you getting this money, dude? Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, you know, people are, I mean, people are
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: struggling with this stuff and, uh, you know, it's, um,
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  Speaker 3: you know, what do we do about it? The problem is,
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: you know, we could, as an example, right, we could
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: figure out, you know, can we lower rates so people
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: can buy homes, right?
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: Or can we do something to provide.
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: Allow people more affordability and to be able to purchase
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  Speaker 3: a home? If you create increased surplus and you don't
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: have more demand, prices are still going to go up, right?
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: So it's sort of like you have to think about
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: the problem holistically and not get you know caught up
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: in this one side or the other i've got to
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: like take care of my group in this particular way
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: because you might end up making the problem worse.
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  Speaker 1: The name of the book toward the turning we will
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  Speaker 1: be right back with scott gibbs hey thanks for coming
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: back to my conversation with scott gibbs a little bit
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: deep but a lot of information to be had we
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: are back with the author of toward the turning I
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: was so charged up when, when I read that, that
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: you want to bring together culture as well as psychology,
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: because it's like, that is my game. I totally understand
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: where you're growing with this. And I mean, you know,
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: polarization and you, you've got populism and stuff like that.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: It's like, it's like this guy's voice needs to be heard.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: And it's like, how do we get it out there
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: even further, even further, even further without offending? Like we
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: seem to have been doing for the past 15 to
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  Speaker 1: 20 years.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: I appreciate that. I mean, and, To some degree, people's
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: buttons are going to get pushed, but the biggest pushback
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: I've gotten from all the podcasts and radio stuff and
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: TV stuff that I've done is trying to.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: Take out.
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  Speaker 3: The moral part of this and just looking at the
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: causality of stuff, like who's morally right, who's superior in
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: terms of, you know, who's righteous and who's not, who's good.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: And who's bad. Just set that stuff aside.
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  Speaker 3: Can we just look at these problems sort of as
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: best we can in a steely eyed way so that
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: we can solve them? The problem is we get caught
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: up in these cycles and it's sort of who's bad
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: and who's good and who's to blame and who's not.
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: And politics is, you know, as bad as it gets
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: in that regard. So I appreciate the, you know, the,
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: the help sort of putting that message out there. Cause
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: you know, at some really basic level, I kind of
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: think about like, this is what a well-functioning democracy should
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: look like. I mean, we should be able to steely-eyed,
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: look at problems, solve them together, negotiate our differing values
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: to get to something that hopefully is win-win. And if
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: it's not sort of the best that we can do,
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: if that makes sense. And, you know, that's my hope
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: in all of this is to try to, you know,
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: shine some light on some of the dynamics that keep
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: us from getting there.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: Well, I want my dad to come back, and I
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: want him to sit down with the nation and say, okay, guys,
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: here's the situation. We're not going to put the focus
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: on the situation. We're going to create the solution. And
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: I think that people are so horrified of the solution,
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: and that's why we need you to be able to
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: step forward saying, there is a solution, but you're going
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: to have to make the right steps. But we're going
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: to have to have that conversation first.
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's complicated because it's sort of– you know,
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: the right solution.
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: I've gotten that.
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: I mean, every time I come on a show, right,
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: it's like, okay, well, what do we do about this?
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: And I can get, I can give a laundry list.
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: I really, and I, you know, we can go there,
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: but I, I've kind of come to a place of
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: the way I talk to couples in my couples therapy, uh,
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: work in the same kind of way, which is, listen,
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: I can tell you a thousand things to do. Until
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: you realize that what you're doing now doesn't work, you're
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: going to keep doing the same thing. And the problem
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: is it gets, in a lot of cases, it gets
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: to this crescendo sort of problem before they realize that
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: the way we're trying to have conversations you know all
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: it does is create these feedback loops in these vicious
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: cycles um it's kind of i don't want to say
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: it's too late but there's usually a crisis right and
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: i i think we're kind of headed there in in
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: you know america in the same kind of way but
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: it's like i want people to understand that the reason
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: we have populism the reason we have sort of this
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: extremism is is in no small part because of the
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: way we try to talk to each other. And that
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: has various, you know, pieces that influence it from, you know,
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: the interests of our politicians about what they want to
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: do to try to drum up, you know, the base
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: vote and the interests of the media in terms of
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: clickbait and what they want to inflame, right, and the
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: political parties and everything. and how they work and trying to, uh,
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: you know, protect their interests. But we ultimately, as you know,
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: the citizens of this country, we get to decide a lot.
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: And if we're going to like, uh, support people who
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: are divisive and uncompromising and inflexible in their thinking and
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: black and white. Right. We're going to continue to get
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: to get the same outcomes, which is suboptimal government. Right.
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: But if we sort of step back and say, I
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: don't want that anymore, we can hopefully pick choose differently. Right.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: I'll tell you what, this has to be the very
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: first time, though, that when I've seen people with these
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: I voted stickers, I really feel so proud to be
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: an American. I don't know if it's because of where
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: we are in history right now, but my God, I
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: really and I make it a point that I tell them,
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: thank you. Thank you for doing that. Thank you for
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: voting early. And I've never done that before. But this
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: time around, I'm feeling it in my heart, dude.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: Why do you think that is? I mean, what's going
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: on for you?
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: Well, everything is the democracy is coming to an end.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: The democracy is coming to an end.
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: Oh, my God.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: World War Three. Doom Day. Doom Day.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: Doom Day.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: And it's like, oh, for the love of God, if
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: it's really going to be that bad, I think there's
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: going to be other signals in the world like Twinkies
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: are going to disappear or something. Now we got a problem.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean.
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: People think this is consequential, right? So I imagine the
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: turnout's going to be pretty high. I'm not an expert
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: in that kind of stuff, but I feel it in myself, right?
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: And it's sort of, there's war in a couple of
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: different places, right? AI makes us all feel a little
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: bit unstable, I think, right? And you know, there's been
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: a lot of turmoil with the administration, love them or
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: hate them. And so, you know, it's got people's attention,
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: I think. You know, it is a tricky part for
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: the government. The I know you were talking about patriotism,
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: but just in terms of motivation and getting out to vote,
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: I mean, one of the problems with the so-called center
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: is that they tend to just be less motivated to
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: get out there and get engaged in the stuff and
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: the extremes. And so you get the extremes, you know,
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: to some degree. So it's, you know, at some level, the.
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: So-called center needs to look in the mirror and say
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: they need to get engaged.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: Do you think that's because it's one of those things
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: saying just let the election happen? We'll fix it when
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: it's done. And I feel like that, you know, it's like,
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: you know, like an abused woman or something like that.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: I'll fix my husband later on. But right now, everything's fine.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: I'll deal with it. But we'll fix it later on.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: If you know what I mean, it feels like the
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: nation is being abused right now. But we'll fix it.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: We'll fix it.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: Like sort of Pollyannish, like it'll be okay.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we got it.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: We're Americans. We'll work our way through.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: We got it. We got it.
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: Well, we are like, you know, it is a foundational
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: sort of value or attitude of being optimistic in this country, right?
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: And we're going to, you know, we got problems, we'll
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: fix them, which I think it's terrific. And if I
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: remember some of this research, it's actually really interesting. helpful and, um,
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: supportive and being successful as to having an optimistic attitude.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: So yes, I think though that in terms.
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: Of the, you know, so-called center or whatever we might
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: call it, um, in terms of motivation, I think there is,
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: there's just less, there's less anger. There's less fear typically
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: than the extremes. And that is, that means they're just
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: less motivated. And when you sort of look at the
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: big picture, you're like, well, it's just going to be
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: what it'll be. I mean, they gave me those, you know,
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: politicians through the primaries. That's who I've got to vote for.
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: I don't love either one of them. So, you know,
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: maybe I won't even vote. Right.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: Or, or, I'll leave parts of it blank.
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: So the extremes, they tend to be significantly more motivated
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: because they feel things more intensely around some of these subjects.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: I can't be the only one that sits there and
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: looks at all the news outlets and I see what's
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: happening in Minnesota and California. And here I am in
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: Carolina going, whew, thank God it's not my state. Whoo,
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: thank God, thank God. And I feel like that's what
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: a lot of people are doing. People from West Virginia
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: are going, whoa, yeah, you guys keep it north of you.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: We're good, we're good. Are you feeling the same thing?
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I guess I hadn't thought about it
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: as a regional thing.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: I'm in Massachusetts, right? Oh, you love the East Coast, yes. Yeah,
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: for sure.
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: But I kind of look at it and think to myself,
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: you know, that kind of stuff can probably happen anywhere, right?
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, it just happens to be like.
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: this issue and that place for now, if that makes sense,
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: but it could come up somewhere else at some other
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: point in time. So I hadn't really thought about it
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: that way, but I am, you know, it's nice to
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: not be in the limelight, right. And have some big
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: crisis next door. So from that standpoint, you know, it's
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: sort of nice to have things be calmer. It'd be
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: nice if it was generally calmer, if that makes sense.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: I love talking to the, the Canadian musicians and actors
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: and things like that. And they'll sit there and every
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: one of them lately have been going, you know, we
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: still love the United States.
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: And I'm going, Oh my God, is that where we've
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: gone with Canada where we have to sit here and
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: we have to do that. And it's like, it's like,
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: it just seems like we're all falling apart, but no,
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: we're not. We're still together here.
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: I'm hopeful about that kind of stuff too. Right. I
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: think there's a, there's a, Particularly with Canada, hopefully to
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: some degree with Europe, that there's a bond at some
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: level that if we're in a rough patch or a
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: stormy time, hopefully things will be able to be smoothed over.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: I do, though, suspect there'll be.
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: For some time some element of– a little bit of
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: apprehension around, you know, to what degree can I trust
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: what's going, what's going on now and, um, you know,
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: what's going to happen down the road. And, you know,
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: I mean, I, I tend to kind of think that's
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: maybe not the worst thing in the world for everybody.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: Like meaning it makes people more independent at some level
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: and to really look in the mirror and say, OK,
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: I need to do this because I can't count on
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: somebody being in the backstop. So but, you know, my
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: hope is that, you know. In today's world, it seems
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: really important to have good relationships with folks who you
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: think are, you know, have the same values. And, you know,
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: getting to a place where that common ground can be found,
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: you know, it seems important.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: When you get this close to culture and psychology, the
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: way that you have through the written word, is there
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: a side of your personality that wonders, how did I
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: get away with this? Am I going to be censored
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: in the years ahead? Because it really does feel like
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: that we're going through this age where they're trying to
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: silence a lot of people. And we see it right
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: there in that White House with the way that they're
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: pushing the media to the side.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: Interesting. I mean, I hadn't really thought about down the road.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: I guess I guess the way I work.
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: I mean, you know, there's a there's a big. part
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: of me the guiding light is like what seems i
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: mean i'll use truth but what's the most accurate place
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: i can get to right i mean because i'm a
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: believer i think coming from therapy and being a therapist
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: like you know the idea that the truth will set
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: you free i mean it it is an important pillar
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: which is i have to look at something and see
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: it and then i can decide what to do right
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: so in my work and writing, I'm really shooting for that,
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: which is like, I don't really care what the outcome
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: is here, the consequences particularly. I just want to be
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: able to shine a light on what the truth is,
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: and then we can decide what to do. I don't
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: want to have an agenda like saving face or being
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: careful about what's being said, any of that. I just
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: want to try to get things out there so people
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: can see things, hopefully.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: Always acknowledging that some of this is my uh, perception, right?
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's my worldview.
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'm a, I have a, you know, um,
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: a worldview to some degree. That's like, I believe in
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: the ability of right and left of different groups to
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: come together, talk sensibly and work things out. Other people
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: think of it as the world's a dangerous place. The
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: world's a hierarchical place. It's dog eat dog.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: And they don't really have that same sensibility that I do.
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: So I, I mean, that sensibility is in the book,
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: if that makes sense.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: What is your gut, and I know I'm taking up
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: way too much time, but what is your gut on
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: what's going on with the uprising of the teens? I
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: find it inspiring, but they need a voice. In other words,
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: it's like they've got the energy to make a difference
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: or whatever they're trying to do, but I don't see
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: any clear leadership as the voice of how to do
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: what they could be doing, if you know what I mean.
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I do.
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: There tends to be a lot of energy in those
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: kinds of age groups, right? And I think it's fantastic.
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: It's like a really good, I mean, the energy, it
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: pushes things, right? The tricky part is, I mean, you know,
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: at least I do. I know, you know, through my 20s,
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: I would not have wanted to be someone who was
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: out in front because your values and your ideals changed. One,
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: they're maybe not quite as formed as they will be
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: over time. You don't have the wisdom of time and experience, right?
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: And you tend to go, you know, really intensely. I mean,
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: I have a close friend who is teaching at Columbia,
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: and the feedback in one of his classes was, you know,
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: from one of the students was, I would never have
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: someone who is African-American sit down with the police. um
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: because it was sort of uh you know inherently abusive
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: and and what it really kind of came down to
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: was it was like it was like a husband abusing
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: a wife it was like you don't talk in that
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: situation you get out or you protect yourself or whatever
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: but the the point i'm getting to is that like
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: that was the mentality and it was very extreme and
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: i know that in certain cases.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: It it's applicable but I also realize.
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: Or believe that if we can't talk at some level,
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: you know, we're not going to solve problems. We're not
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: going to come together around stuff. We're not going to
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: make things better. And so, you know, it was a
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: 20-something with a very kind of dogmatic, I guess, view.
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: And that that dogmatism may have a place in some places,
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: but that can be can create challenges in trying to really.
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: Ultimately get where they'd like to go. I mean, that's
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: why I like somebody.
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: Like, you know, King or whomever who's very, you know, inspirational, right.
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: And still has a clear vision and, you know, pulls
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: us in behind him, et cetera, and has the wisdom
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: over time to sort of, you know, realize that if
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: i'm gonna you know i don't want to throw up
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: walls and poke the bear constantly because it's because it's like.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: You know we're just going to create more polarization.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: You know what one of the things i want listeners
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: to understand is that yes we are talking about voting
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: yes you know the voting is going to be happening
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: soon for the midterm. The thing is, is that that
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: this book is an everyday book in the way that
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: you can still be actively involved in your community and
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: You still have a voice to talk to your senators,
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: your congressmen and women. And that's what I love about
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: this book is that it's not just about this election.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: It's about being where we are in history and that
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: you do have a voice in activation.
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I hope people can find that to
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: some degree. I mean, the book is, I mean, I
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: appreciate your point. The book is more than just the
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: specific issue. I mean, I'm trying to get, you know,
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: I've made it very concrete for people, but your point
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: is a good one, I think, perceptive. It's like, I
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: want people to understand that they are participating in something
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: and they need to sort of in their way recognize
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: that and try to change it to some degree if
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: they want it changed and then you know it's very
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: tricky because we get triggered and we get you know
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: polarized ourselves but that reactivity just causes more and more
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: reactivity and the other thing and last thing i would
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: say is around this one is It's also incredibly difficult
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: to know what to do in certain situations when you're
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: bumping up against something you think is really wrong.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: It's really hard.
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: To listen, if that makes sense. It's sort of like
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: you really want to fight, so to speak. And the
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: question is, how can you have a boundary and quote-unquote
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: fight without provoking someone so that they become more and
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: more intense and you just– you know, this feedback loops intensifies.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: God, I love where your heart is. Where can people
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: go to find out more about what you do, Scott?
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: Because once again, this is not just a book thing.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: This is a Scott thing. Who's deeply dedicated to where
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: we are growing. Yeah.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: I appreciate it.
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: Um, you can go to my website, which is M
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: my first name is Marshall, but it's M Scott gives.com, uh,
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: books on Amazon toward the turning is the name. And, um, yeah,
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: I mean, find out more on my website.
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: You got to come back to this show anytime in
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: the future dude i love the way that you break
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: it down and that you make you simplify it and
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: you let the average person understand that i'm not so
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: weird after all.
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: I appreciate that i love coming back it's it's good
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: to chat with you so you know and i think
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: what you're doing around this kind of stuff is important
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: Well you'd be brilliant today okay sir okay i appreciate
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: it thanks