Latest / The DEX Show: A Show for IT Change Makers / 🎙️ Reality Bytes #60: Productivity vs. Efficiency 🚀

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🎙️ Reality Bytes #60: Productivity vs. Efficiency 🚀 · The DEX Show: A Show for IT Change Makers

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome it, change Makers to the Deck Show with Tim
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Flower and Tom McGraw. Let's get into.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: It all, change Makers, Welcome back to Reality Bites. It's
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: the first Reality Bites of the year. The panel are
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: still joining us, everybody, So I can't say for sure
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: who's going to be with us today, but we have
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: got Sean, Orianna and Tim already in the building and
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: it's lovely to see you all. Today we're going to
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: be diving into the complex intersection of productivity, employee experience,
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: and digital tools and how they are together shifting both
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: surface level metrics to actually enhance the way we work.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: How can digital employee experience be the key to driving
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: genuine collaboration, productivity and employee well being as against to
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: simply helping the man upstairs extract more blood from the stone.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: And I won't tell them where I got that phrased him,
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: but I think we did want to start by being
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: clear about our death nitions. What are we talking about
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: when we when we think about decks as a productivity
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: enabler and what aren't we talking about?
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so in my conversations with folks, uh and it's
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: kind of I would say it's around the world. There's
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: a misperception in some in some cases that dex dex
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: is a productivity tool, and I just I think it's
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: worth spending a little time separating the talking about the
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: line between employee productivity and availability versus enabling productivity uh uh,
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: and not creating it or even monitoring for it. So
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: I'll tell you what I what I mean, it's it's
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: the Let me put it this way. The promise of
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: des is that it brings that opportunity to be productive
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: by removing interruptions, by enabling employees with better adoption and
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: engagement channels, and monitoring and removing that lost productivity, the
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: disruptions and the like. It's not the monitor of the
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: actual productivity. We monitor and remove the failed productivity, but
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: it's not creating productivity. And I don't And the reason
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: I wanted to go down that path is we really
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: need to avoid becoming the corporate time clock. We're giving
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: people the ability to be productive and removing the hurdles
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: to being productive, and I think we've done a good
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: job highlighting those benefits to the IT teams. We've done
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: a good job highlighting the benefit to the business. I
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: think we need to focus some efforts, and maybe this
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: is partly the job and the role of the internal
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: Decks team too, is to highlight the benefits to the individual.
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: Better job satisfaction, higher level of accomplishments, better performance, less frustration,
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: more opportunity to learn. You know, I really think there's
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: a missing part of our communication and what we do
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: and what DEX is and the value that it brings
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: to the employee versus, like you said, just trying to
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: get more productivity from the stone. And you can even
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: tie it to things like return to office. I think
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: there's misperceptions that remote work is not is a hurdle
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: in and of itself to productivity, and I think DEX
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: can demonstrate, not only demonstrate that that's not reality. And
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: if there are hurdles to productivity, DEX gives you the
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: opportunity to find them and remove them. So a little
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: bit of a brain dump there, Tom, but I think
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: that there's a value in having that conversation about the
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: difference between creating versus solving.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: There absolutely is. Let me ask you, Tim, what about
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: the dynamic can you view between employee engagement and productivity?
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: I feel like this illuminates the topic because we know
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: that a happy employee is a productive employee, and we
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: know that from our own experience is day in day out, right,
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: it's not it's not something you need statistics to validate,
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: but they do. And you know, if you're if is
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: it that distinction between enabling employees to be happier at
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: work through making sure they can be optimally productive within
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: their own terms and understanding, as against monitoring, measuring for
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: the organization itself, is that is that a good way
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: of kind of approaching that distinction in your view?
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: I think so. You know, even if you look at
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: the last two three, four weeks, it's a unique time
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: in the in the year for employees and I suffered
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: from this as well. You start to feel a little
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: bit like a hermit working from home. Right you're you're
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: there are there are plenty of times at home where
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: productivity is flowing and I feel creative and I've got
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: time to focus. But then over an elongated period of
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: time where you're not connected, where you're not collaborating with others,
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: where you're not engaged, you start to feel that disconnect
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: from your peers, from your company. I think there's a
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: there's a value in leveraging not only decks, but the
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: collaboration platforms that we help to improve to maintain that
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: connection with employees that are remote. I don't know if
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: that answers your question about the difference between employee productivity
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: and corporate productivity, but just the the the perceived hurdles
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: about being remote sometimes are real, and I think I
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: think there's ways to solve for that.
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: Fascinating Dina has joined us, thankfully because I wanted to
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: ask about this. A whole issue here of KPIs the
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: green watermelon cliche. Dina, is there a kind of new
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: dimension to the old watermelon analogy when we think about
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: how dex can perhaps translate into reflecting deeper sense of
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: workplace health and engagement as against sort of simple sort
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: of technical metrics.
• 6:11
  Speaker 4: Yes, totally. So it's the with the with the watermelon effect.
• 6:15
  Speaker 4: If we're starting from there, it's not just the hard
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: metrics that we're trying to measure right to to measure
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: the full workplace experience, we need to have the sentiment.
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: The sentiment aspect is huge. So going back to the
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: topic we started the episode with, is if we keep
• 6:31
  Speaker 4: everybody going to offices and force them to go to
• 6:36
  Speaker 4: offices every day, et cetera. It does doesn't mean that
• 6:40
  Speaker 4: it's going to it will enhance collaboration, doesn't mean it
• 6:42
  Speaker 4: will enhance productivity. This is why we need to keep
• 6:46
  Speaker 4: an eye on both of the metrics, the sentiment aspect
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: and actually the measure of collaboration and productivity. Because it's
• 6:54
  Speaker 4: great to be in the office, However, you're losing a
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: lot of time transporting back and forth, et cetera, et cetera,
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: which is good, but if like Tim was mentioning earlier,
• 7:04
  Speaker 4: if you're only working away from the office, away from
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: your colleagues, et cetera. The collaboration point, which is the
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: human point, now that we're encouraging more and more every
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: day and we want to keep on using ais et cetera,
• 7:17
  Speaker 4: et cetera, which is again great, but you still have
• 7:21
  Speaker 4: the human touch that you need to keep the clover
• 7:23
  Speaker 4: collaboration aspect. So I think we are stuck a bit
• 7:27
  Speaker 4: in the middle between both to have that sweet silver
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: lining of going to the office, but then also working
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: in your own on your own pace, in your own
• 7:37
  Speaker 4: independent environment, et cetera. But it's the mix of both.
• 7:40
  Speaker 4: So the questions come comes in place, is do we
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: want to force going back to the office. Do we
• 7:46
  Speaker 4: want to keep away from that? I think the answer
• 7:49
  Speaker 4: to it is the mix of both, because that's where
• 7:53
  Speaker 4: most of the organizations have seen productivity increase when you're
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: having the freedom to mix between the hybrid work space.
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: Let's say, what's.
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: Your experience, Dana. You travel quite a lot, You travel
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: offices and workplaces.
• 8:09
  Speaker 4: Yes, yes, so even before COVID. So I've been a
• 8:13
  Speaker 4: consultant a long time before COVID, and I have been
• 8:16
  Speaker 4: doing that remote hybrid work aspect before. And it's not
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: for everybody because you need to be a little bit
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: committed into delivering what you need to be delivering. You
• 8:26
  Speaker 4: need to be on a timely manner, whether you're mixing
• 8:29
  Speaker 4: up time zones, and that's one of the things I
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: have been doing, working different time zones, different locations, different customers,
• 8:35
  Speaker 4: et cetera. So you need to have a very good
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: time management. You need to have a good productivity measure,
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: so you would understand how much is too much, how
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: much is a collaboration that you would need to be
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: doing a necessity kind of collaboration. So I personally prefer
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: both the hybrid aspect of things because I enjoy being
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: at the office collaborating with people, and you really get
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: a lot of things done, and it's a lot of
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: it's like opening on ideas Pandora's box, right, and also
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: working on a focused mode on my own screens and
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: everything just to get the things that I need to
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: get done. So it's the mix of both. I think
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: the more we practice, the better we get at it.
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: And making sure that you always keep the productivity measures
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: or metrics upfront.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: I completely agree. Sure, And we were sort of splitting
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: hairs about this notion of kind of corporate and employee
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: productivity earlier. You had a different terminology for it. You
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: talked about a distinction between productivity and efficiency, and when
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: we think about that specifically, how is it that dex
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: tools and AI can optimize and streamline communication, collaboration, etc.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: And make the difference in these areas or illuminate that
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: category distinction.
• 9:55
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I think like one distinction I wanted to make
• 9:58
  Speaker 5: was between productivity in efficiency. Productivity, just to bring it
• 10:02
  Speaker 5: back to basic terms, is more about kind of ticking
• 10:06
  Speaker 5: off boxes in the day and doing as much as
• 10:08
  Speaker 5: you possibly can, Whereas I think efficiency is doing it
• 10:13
  Speaker 5: in the shortest amount of time frame or improving a
• 10:17
  Speaker 5: process to get to an answer, which isn't exactly the
• 10:21
  Speaker 5: same thing. And I think this actually is sort of
• 10:24
  Speaker 5: related to what Tim said earlier about like creating versus solving.
• 10:27
  Speaker 5: I think AI and dex tools can help with both
• 10:31
  Speaker 5: of those spheres get you closer. But I do feel
• 10:35
  Speaker 5: like sometimes, you know, you can solve as many problems
• 10:39
  Speaker 5: as you want in the day, and that's good. But
• 10:41
  Speaker 5: for the bigger strategic work or creating something from nothing,
• 10:45
  Speaker 5: for example, in marketing, I'll give you a clear example,
• 10:48
  Speaker 5: it takes a little bit longer to get to that solution.
• 10:51
  Speaker 5: I don't think AI is there yet. Sometimes you need
• 10:54
  Speaker 5: to This is a very long answer, but I've said
• 10:56
  Speaker 5: this to a lot of you. There's a thing called
• 10:58
  Speaker 5: the intelligent unconscious where you you know, when you're like
• 11:01
  Speaker 5: thinking about a problem, you just can't find an answer,
• 11:03
  Speaker 5: so you got to walk away. You go for a walk,
• 11:05
  Speaker 5: you exercise, and then the next day, randomly, an idea
• 11:08
  Speaker 5: pops in your head and you're like, I think that's
• 11:10
  Speaker 5: the thing that's going to help me solve this. And
• 11:13
  Speaker 5: I think that is important even in the corporate world.
• 11:16
  Speaker 5: You know, even if you're like trying to write a
• 11:18
  Speaker 5: song or you know that that's where it kind of
• 11:21
  Speaker 5: translates to. But in the corporate world, you can also
• 11:23
  Speaker 5: you have to be very creative solving problems, and sometimes
• 11:27
  Speaker 5: you got to let those problems sit with you, you know,
• 11:30
  Speaker 5: for a permissible amount of time before you can really
• 11:34
  Speaker 5: come back with a smart, unique approach.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: Absolutely arian, And let's pick up on that theme and
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: on a theme that you've spoken about before, which is,
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: you know, organizations now preparing themselves in very real terms
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: for the fuller integration of AI on the ground. What
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: does that look like? Where are we at and what
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: are you seeing in the customers you're speaking to on
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: that front.
• 12:01
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I think there's sort of maybe a few different
• 12:06
  Speaker 6: basic elements to that, right, one of which is touching
• 12:10
  Speaker 6: on what Sean was talking about with the creative elements
• 12:13
  Speaker 6: of work and this thing that I'm hearing a lot
• 12:17
  Speaker 6: of people say, right, I want AI to help me
• 12:20
  Speaker 6: do the laundry so I can make art, not have
• 12:22
  Speaker 6: the AI make art so that I have to do
• 12:24
  Speaker 6: the laundry all the time. And I think we can
• 12:27
  Speaker 6: really apply that metaphor to how do we think about
• 12:31
  Speaker 6: that in terms of the actual work that we're doing right.
• 12:34
  Speaker 6: So in our context, especially in things like it, there's
• 12:39
  Speaker 6: the boring but important stuff that needs to get done,
• 12:42
  Speaker 6: and that's often extremely tedious, the metaphorical laundry of our work,
• 12:47
  Speaker 6: and that's where I think we can really make a
• 12:52
  Speaker 6: huge impact in terms of improving the quality of life
• 12:56
  Speaker 6: of work itself, making people's work easier. And the initial
• 13:03
  Speaker 6: I think energy around AI was very sensationalistic in a
• 13:07
  Speaker 6: lot of ways. It was very driven by hype, and
• 13:10
  Speaker 6: I think we're starting to see a lot more like, Okay, well,
• 13:13
  Speaker 6: let's get pragmatic about this, right, where can we actually
• 13:15
  Speaker 6: have the most impact by integrating with work processes? And
• 13:19
  Speaker 6: this is super important because in talking to our customers specifically,
• 13:24
  Speaker 6: and also people in tech in general, it's often very
• 13:27
  Speaker 6: hard to make change right. There's been so much change
• 13:30
  Speaker 6: in the last few years. We've talked about this a
• 13:32
  Speaker 6: lot in terms of what it looks like in the
• 13:36
  Speaker 6: digital landscape, and so what people want is not shiny
• 13:40
  Speaker 6: and new and flashy all the time. What people want
• 13:43
  Speaker 6: is smoother, more efficient, It works. I don't have to
• 13:48
  Speaker 6: learn something completely new every three to six months, but
• 13:51
  Speaker 6: rather I can integrate this into my existing work process,
• 13:55
  Speaker 6: and it is removing some of the tedium. It's automation
• 13:58
  Speaker 6: and orchestration, all of these things that can have a
• 14:04
  Speaker 6: very powerful cumulative impact. And I think that's sort of
• 14:11
  Speaker 6: the core of what I'm seeing people move towards, is
• 14:14
  Speaker 6: really making this stuff real and concrete in ways that
• 14:17
  Speaker 6: are potentially a lot smaller in this specific implementation, but
• 14:22
  Speaker 6: a lot more tailored to the context.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: Bringing it back a bit to that productivity efficiency distinction, right.
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 14:30
  Speaker 6: And I think the other thing that I think about
• 14:32
  Speaker 6: when I hear all the stuff that Tim and Diina
• 14:36
  Speaker 6: we're talking about with productivity efficiency things like that, is
• 14:40
  Speaker 6: we keep mentioning measures, right, And as a researcher, I
• 14:43
  Speaker 6: think a lot about how do we develop good metrics
• 14:46
  Speaker 6: and things like that. And one of the pitfalls that
• 14:49
  Speaker 6: I think people can be a little bit reluctant to
• 14:51
  Speaker 6: talk about at times is the fact that if you
• 14:54
  Speaker 6: set a metric as a goal, it's no longer a
• 14:56
  Speaker 6: good metric. And this is really tough, right because we
• 15:02
  Speaker 6: want to have good metrics and we want to succeed.
• 15:06
  Speaker 6: So it's very easy to fall into this pitfall of
• 15:09
  Speaker 6: you set a specific way of measuring something because you
• 15:12
  Speaker 6: want to see are your policies and processes working effectively.
• 15:17
  Speaker 6: But once you have that measure in place, there's a
• 15:20
  Speaker 6: very very powerful incentive to work towards the measure rather
• 15:24
  Speaker 6: than work towards the thing that is actually going to
• 15:27
  Speaker 6: improve things right. This is where you get, for example,
• 15:30
  Speaker 6: cultures of looking busy in the office, and that's not
• 15:34
  Speaker 6: what we want from return to work, right. We don't
• 15:36
  Speaker 6: want people to be going in and trying to figure out, Okay,
• 15:40
  Speaker 6: how do I get there five minutes before my boss
• 15:42
  Speaker 6: and leave five minutes after my boss because I need
• 15:44
  Speaker 6: to create the appearance of looking busy. We want people
• 15:47
  Speaker 6: to be going there and saying, Okay, how do I
• 15:50
  Speaker 6: really get value from collaboration, like Dina was saying, if
• 15:53
  Speaker 6: that's why you're coming in right, or how do I
• 15:56
  Speaker 6: make sure that I'm cultivating an environment where people can
• 16:00
  Speaker 6: collaborate across multiple time zones and multiple offices. And I
• 16:04
  Speaker 6: think that's one of those things where you really run
• 16:08
  Speaker 6: the risk of having those watermelon metrics. You really run
• 16:11
  Speaker 6: the risk of having constantly shifting metrics because you realize
• 16:16
  Speaker 6: that they stop measuring what you need them to measure
• 16:18
  Speaker 6: because people are just trying to measure or work to
• 16:21
  Speaker 6: the metric rather than work to the end outcome.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: Do you can you measure the outcome at all? Then?
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: Are there are there deeper metrics which elude this kind
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: of paradox? Or is there a whole Is it a
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: question of having a completely different mentality. I'm not quite
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: sure which one you're pointing towards.
• 16:40
  Speaker 6: I think it depends a little bit on the context.
• 16:42
  Speaker 6: Probably a little bit of both.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 16:44
  Speaker 6: Some of it is are you setting metrics that do
• 16:49
  Speaker 6: work effectively? Right, like, for example, sales numbers? You know,
• 16:53
  Speaker 6: obviously people want to work towards those. It's great, But
• 16:58
  Speaker 6: then there's other things, right like what are the things
• 17:01
  Speaker 6: that you risk missing if you only look at those?
• 17:03
  Speaker 6: And that's why we need to have a lot of
• 17:05
  Speaker 6: different metrics, right. So when we talk about productivity, this
• 17:08
  Speaker 6: is one of the reasons why we champion decks. Right,
• 17:11
  Speaker 6: So are people actually being efficient or are they expending
• 17:16
  Speaker 6: a lot of effort on looking efficient?
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 17:18
  Speaker 6: And so that's where we can see, for example, if
• 17:21
  Speaker 6: people are like Tim is saying at the beginning, are
• 17:25
  Speaker 6: we actually removing the barriers that people experience to coming
• 17:28
  Speaker 6: into the office, to working effectively from home, and are
• 17:33
  Speaker 6: they happy with that outcome? Is that actually making them
• 17:36
  Speaker 6: more loyal if that's what you want from your employees,
• 17:38
  Speaker 6: Is it making them more effective as workers or is
• 17:43
  Speaker 6: it really promoting things that create the appearance of that
• 17:49
  Speaker 6: superficially without driving stuff that's actually making your company more
• 17:54
  Speaker 6: productive and workers stay and be happy and be effective
• 17:59
  Speaker 6: in the long term.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: Dina, First of all, since you Dina, since you raised
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: the kind of KPI issue initially, any anything you want
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: to riff on following Oriana sports.
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: Yes, I think it's it's people addressing people at the
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: end of the day, right, So we need to be
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: keeping that in mind. We have measures for the businesses
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: and KPIs and all of that, but we need to
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: be adaptive and dynamic making sure that we are employee first. Right.
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: This is where this this is the most valuable asset
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: of any organization. It's it's employees. So we need to
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: make sure that we have this sweet balance between making
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: them so comfortable, effective, efficient, productive and also getting the
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: results that we're trying to get from the business aspect.
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: So it's the sweet balance of both where I think
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: it becomes a challenging to try and measure it. Just
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: going back to your question earlier, is there a specific metric,
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: Is it a hard metric that we need to put
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: in place. It is, but it is dynamic as well.
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: Need to take all of the changes into the equation
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: just to come up with a with a good output.
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: A little bit hard to accommodate that when it comes
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: to people. It's easier when we're doing it with processes
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: or technologies, but we need to be as dynamic and
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: as a child as people are.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: I love it, and Tim I think Sean Sean brought
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: in that interesting distinction of distinction of efficiency and productivity,
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: and then Oreana spoke about the kind of difference between
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: road work which can perhaps be more efficiently automated, with
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: creative work which needs to be kind of protected in
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: some sense. I mean anything there that left you have
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: any final thoughts for the discussion.
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a bunch on and I agree wholeheartedly with
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: shown around the need to take the right amount of
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: time to apply creativity to solutioning and problem solving. I
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: think the one though that I would really want to
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: wrap up on with is maybe it's in the form
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: of advice, don't manage just by the number or the
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: numbers are a data point, but they're only one data point.
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: If you get lost in the data, you're going to
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: lose I think maybe putting it extremely you're going to
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: lose your humanity. You've got to connect with people. You've
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: got to understand the reason and rationale behind the numbers.
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: So the other, the other maybe controversial thing or maybe
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: something that needs to be done with care, is the
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: numbers need to tell you the what the outputs are,
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: what the outcomes are, and some to to I think
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: it was Dana made the point some of that data
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: drives or maybe it was Ariana drives the wrong behavior.
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: It was ariana where you just striving to meet the
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: data point versus driving the right behavior. So I would
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: argue that when you see that, you maybe almost need
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: to make the measurement of those metrics not known to
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: the process or the teams that are providing the output.
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: Right if you're if you're dry having the wrong behavior,
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: measure the output, but then engage with those employees about
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: behavior about process. I think there's and maybe that's the
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: wrong way to approach it, but there's got to be
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: some way to protect the sanctity of the data without
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: it being manipulated.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: But like Schroding as cat or something, isn't it. Yeah,
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: that's wonderful stuff, everybody, and it's lovely to see you
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: all again for our first reality bites of twenty twenty five.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: Do as ever, check for show notes, where you can
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: find free downloadable reports from the likes of Forested Gartner
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: and their own research team. And if I have this
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: correct team, I think we've just ordered everyone back to
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: the water cooler a.
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: Cooler today, and it's actually nice to hear the office
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: buzz and connect with people. So I'm a fan of
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: getting into the office onceorhiw, I'm not a fan of
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: the MANDATEA.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: Love it, love it? Okay, thanks so much, every buddy, goodbye.
• 22:02
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  Speaker 1: next time,