Latest / The Art of Costume Podcast / Costume Talk with Carlos Rosario and Christine Wada | Episode 1

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Costume Talk with Carlos Rosario and Christine Wada | Episode 1 · The Art of Costume Podcast

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Welcome to the premiere episode of Costume Talk, a new series
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that brings the art of costume design and storytelling to
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center stage. In each episode, we pair the
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industry's top talent for an in depth conversation about their
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creative journeys. Today we're joined by Emmy
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nominated costume designers Carlos Rosario of Shogun and
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Christine WADA of Loki as they share their insights,
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inspirations and stories behind their stunning work.
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This is Costume talk. Well, Christine, I couldn't
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think of a better person than you to do this with.
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I'm so excited to talk to you today.
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Likewise, Carlos, I feel like I've tracked and congratulations
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to you, and I feel like I've tracked your career kind of all
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the way through and just admire, admire your work.
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Thank you. Likewise, it's been a long time.
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It's been a long time, right, that we've known each other.
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And I have to say before we start that one of the reasons
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why I'm here today in this, you know, moment in my career, I
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have to say that it's because of you.
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So I think that this conversation should start with
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that because you remember a few years ago, I was working as an
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assistant designer on on a big show.
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And something happened that I felt that, and I was working as
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an assistant designer and, and something happened that I felt
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that it was my time to go. I learned everything that I had
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to learn as an assistant designer, and I knew that it was
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time for me to step up and work as a costume designer.
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And I remember the following day, that was the best decision
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I've done to quit that job because the following day you
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called me at 10:00 AM. And you have been one of my
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angels in my career in the sense that you called me and told me
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that there was a movie, right, that you couldn't do with our
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friend Dieter Montiel, right? And it was with Robin Williams,
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and I think it was the last movie that actually he did.
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And you asked me if I was interested in doing it.
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So you put me in touch with the director.
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And I think 2 days later I was actually in Nashville.
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And that was really the beginning of my career as a
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costume designer. So one of the reasons why I'm
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here today is because of you. Well earned, well earned.
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And it really is a pleasure to see.
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You know, I think for both of our careers that that we really
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went through the process of this thing and really saw the
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department. I think it's invaluable and, and
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you can see it in your work and hopefully you can see it in my
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work. I think it's a very, we come
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from a very vetted process and you and of course you were, you
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know, I think beyond ready to step up.
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You and I had a very similar career in the sense that we've
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been part of every single position in the department,
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right? And in a way, when people ask
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me, you know, what kind of like advice do you give the new
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generation? I tell them learn about
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everything. The more you know, the better
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designer you will be. You know, and when you learn
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about textiles, you learn to be an illustrator.
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You. You've been an assistant, you've
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been a key, you've been on set. It makes you be a way better
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designer. Absolutely.
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And, and really, I mean you are, you have to lead such a big
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team, especially as both of our careers have grown and we've
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gotten into building a lot of costumes.
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I mean, you're responsible for a large team of people and making
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sure that everybody works together well and understands
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each other's process. And how else are you going to
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know unless you've done it or been sort of participatory in
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the process, right? And.
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Absolutely. And I also feel that being a
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costume designer is also very psychological, you know, and so
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I feel that being a good designer also comes with a lot
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of wisdom and maturity and being a good leader.
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And unless you have been in the other positions before, it's
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hard to step in as a leader right away.
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You need to just, it's, it needs to be a very organic sort of
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process that happens into your life in which you step into a
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sense of empowerment, where you find your inner voice and, you
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know, your own sense of style, right.
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And in which you step into, you know, your position of designer,
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right? Yeah.
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And don't you feel lucky? I mean, lately I've been
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reflecting, especially with the slow down of the industry, and I
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reflect back on how grateful I am, and I thank you as well that
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we came up in an era where we really got to flex and carve out
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our point of view. Absolutely, right.
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Like we really, we really had to work at it and we really got a
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playground for carving out our point of view.
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I mean, yeah, I just think that that must be a lot harder now.
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I agree. I agree.
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Well, I mean, I think that in a sense we, we started in an
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industry that didn't have, you know, computers like we, we had
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to be very, you know, find solutions really fast without
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the technology. Now these days you go online and
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you can buy 20 pair of shoes and you can have them deliver the
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following day, you know, where you can connect with the entire
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world. But when we started, we really
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had to be very creative in finding solutions really fast,
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don't you think? And ready, ready to work really
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hard. When I sometimes hire the, you
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know, new people, young people from the new generation on my
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team, it's amazing that, you know, we, it's 1012 hours and
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they're ready to go home. And I'm like, when I started, if
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somebody would have asked me to work 20 hours, I did 20 hours
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and I was excited about it. Exactly.
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Or, or if somebody asked you to go get something at a store and
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you didn't really know where that was, I used to say, OK, and
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then I'd look it up in my phone book and, and find my way there,
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which really taught me to be very tenacious.
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And, and I think it sort of builds into being a costume
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designer where you, you're given these tasks and you know how to
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solve it from beginning to end. You're not looking for somebody
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to tell you how to solve the problem.
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Exactly. And I, and I think to a degree
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we are, I sort of see our job as being, we're really good at
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collaging. Yes, we're really great at
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collaging. But to collage, it means you
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have to be able to find those things to paced together, right?
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You have to be able to be a seeker.
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You have to be able to speak. Yes, absolutely curious about
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everything, right? And I think that that's probably
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what makes us, you know, now being a, a good position as
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costume designers is the fact that we've worked on so many
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different styles of movies that the curiosity that we had to tap
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into, to, you know, go into the sci-fi world, period world,
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understand about different types of techniques and fabrics and
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everything has made us be better designers now and being more
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ready at the challenges that we need to face, don't you think?
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Absolutely. And that's one question I wanted
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to ask you is do you get that question a lot of like, wow,
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you've done so many things, why? Why have you done so many
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different genres? Do you get that?
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I get that question a lot And how do you answer that?
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Well, I mean, this is what I say is that I think that's the, you
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know, for example, that came up many times with Shogun because
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of the of Japanese descent, right.
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And I think it's just like I keep telling the journalist, I
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keep telling, you know, the people that asked me that
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question, that at the end of the day, that is the actually the
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essence of what a costume designer is.
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Our work is to read a script and tap into it, whatever that is,
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whatever the characters are, sci-fi period, whatever period
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it is, you know, whatever the circumstances are, whatever the
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characters are. Our job is to be sort of this
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kind of chameleon, right? That kind of taps into all these
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types of energies within a time frame that is infinite.
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And we are able to actually go into it and, and we know what
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the process needs to be in order to create the costumes for those
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characters. And you don't need to be, it's
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not a race card. It's not about where you're
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coming from, and it's not about culture.
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It's the fact that as costume designers, the essence of this
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job is to be able to do anything thing that is inspiring,
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inspiring us. Right.
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And it's the research. I I mean, really, you and I did
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not live in 1892. I didn't live in the through the
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World's Fair. Yeah, but nor have I even lived,
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say, in the bridesmaids world. I'm never been married.
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So. Right.
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So you do research, which is so I think the best part of our our
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job and you. And I think it's important that
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youngsters understand that research isn't just pretty
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images. I mean, I read a lot because of
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course there isn't the imagery for something that like pirates.
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I don't, it's not like I have image photographs of pirates in
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1717. But I read a lot so that I'm
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informed and I think that, and I'm sure you, you know, and I've
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seen that you dealt with that in Shogun is that it just informs
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your decision. So you can really make, you can
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create costumes that come from your mind, but they're well
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informed from the period, right? So you know, you know, classes,
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you know what people, what the dyes were available for that
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time period. You know, it would be like if we
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did a space movie, you and I would probably read everything
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that was required oxygen wise or gravity wise in space, which
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isn't really imagery. It's, it's, you'd have to read
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it so that then all of your design has function.
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Because for me, I think function is vital.
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Culture and function and class are all so interesting to me in
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costumes and they they really translate across all genres,
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whether that's ROM com, sci-fi, period.
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I think that addressing all of those constructs is makes us
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better as designers. I agree.
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I agree. And that's beautifully said
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because actually the perfect example is for me this year
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between Shogun and Alien. You know, like you said it when
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I had to design the space suits for Alien, I mean, yeah.
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I mean, there was so much research that went into it.
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It wasn't just, you know, the aesthetic, the creative aspect
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of the space. So it was about also
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understanding the different parts of it, the function of it,
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you know, the practical aspects of it, you know, the technical
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aspects of it. And then, you know, I think the
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creative part, sometimes it's it'll be like the, you know, the
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strawberry on top of the cake. But there's, there's so many
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different steps that you need to acknowledge before that.
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And for Shogun, you're right, it's all about research.
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And, and I think in a way that really is what allows us to be,
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I think a really great costume designers, because sometimes not
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being from, you know, me not being Japanese allows me to have
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maybe a little bit more detachment, you know, towards
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designing clothes that are so, you know, sacred in, in Japanese
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culture, Because I can see it a little bit more from a distance,
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you know, so I'm not caught sometimes with certain
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boundaries that maybe some Japanese, you know, designers
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would feel, you know, And actually for Shogun, the, the,
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the interesting thing and, and, and I think it's, that's also
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what I find very fascinating about costume design is the fact
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that you need to take so many things in consideration when you
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design costumes for a show like that.
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It's not just about, you know, the, the, the, the research.
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It's not just about, you know, who the characters are, but you
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know, Shogun is also a product that you bring into the world.
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So it was about really understanding the Japanese
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culture, you know, the the clothing of that period and
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understanding and respecting that aesthetic, but also being
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able to bring it into the Western world in a way that the
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aesthetic can be understood by by the Western world.
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And I think that for us as costume designer, that also is
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another layer that we need to take into consideration.
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Right. Absolutely.
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But there are and, but there are so many things that that
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translate to all cultures, right?
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Like and that and really ultimately you're a storyteller,
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right? More story?
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Absolutely. Absolutely.
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So where is something aged? Where is something not aged?
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Where do you just, where do you make it, the masses?
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Where do you have somebody stand out?
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I mean, I think on Loki, that was a big thing for me because
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there were levels to the TVA and there were, there are moments
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that you wanted to, you wanted to see a character's arc happen,
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you know, so you, you dig into the psychology, which is
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psychology, doesn't it happens to all cultures, all people,
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all, all classes, all race, right.
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So you have like, for instance, with Tom, it would be a, an arc
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of, of ego being humbled and then embracing empathy and then,
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right, and then having sort of the ability to be humble again,
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right. And that, But when you read that
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on the page, which would still are all just human storylines,
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right? Then you, you figure out how do
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I want that to be reflected in, in the costumes, right?
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And how do I, how do I compare and contrast that within the
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world's even your background, I'm sure you know you pay close
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attention to the background because it helped tell your the
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story that your main character is or the struggles that your
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main character is going through. Absolutely.
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And that those are really important.
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Creating the world's very is very.
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It has to be very considered, I think.
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Totally. So speaking about Loki, when
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when you started season 2, how did you approach Loki?
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How was because you know he's a very complex character and you
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know he's you know there is a clear evolution in his
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character. So how did you start season 2?
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How did his evolution impacted his costumes?
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Well, I think that it's perfect to be talking to you about this
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because I don't know what illustrating.
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Do you ever have this moment where you, you started drawing
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and you start a illustration and you start really big or even
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with a painting, like you start really busy and really big, like
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a study and you study it and you study it and you do more and
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more studies and then all of a sudden you just start taking
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more and more and more away until you land on what you I
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feel like that's what season 2. I had never done a season 2.
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So doing a season two, I started really big and then it just with
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the research and the concepts, and then you just start peeling
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it away until you find that that sort the the essence of the
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story and where you're really thinking about how the audience
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is going to see it from beginning to end.
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Because I think, you know, I've said this before, it's like I
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just realized that I didn't want to up my game, so to speak,
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because I think it would take the audience out of the story,
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right? And really the connection of
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because really Loki is this is a two-part story, right?
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But ultimately it's starting big and peeling it away and then and
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and just staying true to where those characters needed to gal
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well. So is that the reason why you
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decided to do Season 2? Because you said you've never
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done a Season 2. Did you feel like you were not
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finished with the first season you wanted to?
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Yeah. Absolutely.
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I have the same feeling with, you know, if there is a Season 2
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for Shogun, you know, that's what I feel.
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I feel like in me that I just want to be part of it.
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I didn't finish those characters yet.
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I feel like I have so much more to say.
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And I feel like people say, well, it's 10 episodes and for
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you it was also, you know, a lot of work.
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But when you finish the season, you feel like, wow, I've learned
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so much. But I still feel like there is
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even more to do. Is that your your feeling?
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Oh, absolutely. And especially because we've
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dealt with so much humiliation in season one of Loki's
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character, who you know from other Avengers is so like he's
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coming from such pure ego. And then and then we had to
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humiliate him. And so of course you want him
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redeemed and see, and visually you want him redeemed and you
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really want to, you want to feel that, that the character kind of
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finds its humble purpose, right? But the end.
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And and to be able to figure out what that means in terms of a
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costume is a challenge I couldn't.
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Pass up right, of course, of course.
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And don't you feel like we ask costume designers?
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It's really a strange process, but we get so attached to the
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characters because and especially on TV, so many
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episodes, you know, you that the projects, those projects become
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who you are. I mean every day it's not like
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you go home and you can turn it off.
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It's like a part of you for for the entire time.
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And I'll tell you this really, you know, interesting story that
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happened to me is that when, when we finished shooting the
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season one of Shogun, I came back home to France and within a
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few weeks I, you know, three or four weeks later, I, I look, I
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was looking on Instagram and the actress that played Marico in
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the series from, from the 80s passed away right after we
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finished shooting. And, you know, the the 80s
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miniseries was beautifully designed.
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It was and it was perfect for that period.
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But it wasn't a reference for me.
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I knew that this project was going to be completely
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different. And I didn't use that as a
18:14
reference. But the fact that that actress
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that played Miracle died, I actually burst into tears, you
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know, because I, I lived with that character for 16 months of
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my life. So it was really interesting
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that us as costume designers, we get so attached to these
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characters. Does that also happen to you?
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Oh, 100%. I get attached to the
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characters, Yes. Yeah.
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And you really, I mean, you want to honor.
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I mean, I think in All in all movies, I think you're really
18:46
successful with the good guy, the bad guy, you know, the
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villain, the hero that you still identify with, that character,
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that it's still somebody that you identify with.
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Or at least those are the characters of movies I'm drawn
19:00
to. And I think that that's where
19:03
our job is really important. And that's where I think for me,
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even with Loki, I was really, I really wanted research to also
19:10
have some grounding and real people.
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Yeah, beautiful. And speaking about that, because
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I feel like the color palette and the textures and are
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absolutely, I mean, when I saw the trailer, the first trailer,
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I was blown away. And I remember like texting
19:29
tense and right away and I said, Oh my God, I can't, I can't
19:32
believe this is so beautiful, you guys.
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I mean, everything was so perfect.
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Can you tell us a little bit more about your color palette,
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your approach to the color palette?
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Because it's so beautiful. It's very unique.
19:42
Ah. Thank you.
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Well, I will say it was pretty, it was very story driven because
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you think of coming up with what the TBA is going to look like
19:51
and and creating sort of this DMV type feeling for that
19:57
organization with a like DMV meets communism.
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So right, sort of this where everybody is sort of stripped of
20:06
their personal identity, right? I I didn't want the colors to
20:11
come. I didn't want the workers to pop
20:14
from the background. I thought it made a lot more
20:17
sense that they almost became architecture, right?
20:19
And then Kazra, the production designer, it's done such a
20:23
beautiful sets that it just felt like they needed to be
20:27
sculptural, that people needed to be somewhat sculptural in
20:30
that in that landscape, right. And then and I also just thought
20:34
that that it would be kind of somewhat original in the sense
20:38
of like a sci-fi world, because I do remember being having a lot
20:42
of push towards the color blue, like to use blue because it
20:46
would pop out of the environment.
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So I quickly ran, got this vintage shark skin, you know,
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suiting like I think it was like Jodak mohair that has been made
21:00
since the 1950s, right? And, and I camera tested like I
21:05
ran to Technicolor. I asked the DP autumn, I was
21:08
like, can I just color test it? Can I color test it so I can
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camera test it? I mean, so I can get this
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through. And we did and they were so
21:16
receptive. I was really lucky.
21:19
Sometimes I and so in your creative process, you talked
21:22
earlier about research and now we're speaking about colors.
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Is that the first steps towards like getting closer to designing
21:28
the costumes for your characters are those you know your
21:31
priorities before you get anything?
21:33
You mean palette and search? Yes, yes, I mean.
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I do the same thing. I start with that first.
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What's your go to research? Do you think?
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What do you start with? Do you think you start with?
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I always start from like a really wide perspective, you
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know, I can't get close to the characters until I know their
21:51
territory. So I always speak with the
21:53
background actually. And so I divide all my
21:57
characters in different groups and then within those different
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group groups, I try to do as much research as possible to
22:04
know everything about those different groups.
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Then I attach color palettes to them.
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And then when you get to that, then while specifically for
22:12
Shogun, every single, you know, group had their different ranks,
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so you start studying the differences between the
22:20
different ranks and that's when you get closer and closer to the
22:23
characters. But I always leave the
22:24
characters to the end. I need to 1st feel the world
22:28
which they live, you know, And I think also it's a very healthy
22:31
way to start that way from a wide angle because you start
22:34
putting, you know, finding fabrics and, and you know,
22:37
working with colours and everything.
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And as you're looking at all those elements, I feel like you
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start putting, you know, selecting the little things that
22:45
just had that same energetical tonality to your character.
22:51
So you take them and you start putting them to the side, right?
22:54
And that's why I feel that I started designing my characters
22:57
by with from a wide perspective first.
23:00
And OK, I need to know though, like how?
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So once you've done that, when did you start your fabric
23:06
process? Very early on, because I started
23:09
Swatch and we started swatching in LA and in New York, and I was
23:12
receiving boxes and boxes of swatches based on drawings and,
23:16
you know, and research and all that.
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And there was nothing that I found that was exciting.
23:20
Nothing. It was just very basic.
23:22
I mean, as you know, in Vancouver, there are no fabrics,
23:24
so I had to bring everything, right?
23:27
So I had somebody in New York, somebody in LA, and I couldn't
23:30
find anything. And I was just kind of worried,
23:32
I have to be honest. And then I decided to hire two
23:37
people in Japan and ask them to see what what they could find
23:41
over there. And when I saw the beautiful
23:43
fabrics, extremely expensive, but beautiful fabrics that they
23:48
were sending me and the fact that we could print fabrics over
23:52
there that they were. So they really incorporated the
23:56
essence of the Japanese culture. There was something that was so
23:59
unique about them. I was like, this is the show.
24:03
And so I did a big presentation to effects and you know, they
24:07
loved it and they were like, this is our show.
24:12
So they supported us, you know, in terms of our budget because
24:15
that was just definitely way more expensive than what we were
24:19
expecting. But that also was sort of the
24:23
starting point of the design also for the production
24:25
designer, for the DPS, for the prop people, for the set deck.
24:29
Those fabrics really helped us understand what Shogun was.
24:33
In your research, was there something specific fabric wise
24:38
to the Sengoku period? Well, I mean, you know, there
24:41
was a lot of hemp fabric, there were a lot of silks.
24:45
There was something that I found always very interesting is the
24:47
fact that cotton was actually very rare and very expensive.
24:52
So I only did white cotton tabbies for the king, the queen,
24:57
the yaichio, the Prince and Lady Ochiba.
25:00
And so that was it. You know, they were the highest
25:02
rank in the castle in Osaka, and everybody else had just regular
25:06
tabbies except the Lords. They had deer skin tabbies, you
25:09
know, So that's also what I find fascinating about our work as
25:13
costume designers, that, you know, those subtleties create
25:16
the characters. Absolutely.
25:18
And I'm always by the way, fascinated by class structures
25:22
and you can see it in Loki, like I really wanted to create a
25:25
carve out a class structure and I I liked to repeat it from in
25:30
the world's Fair. I just was researching a lot of
25:33
I just, I just think it's a tell us so much about it gives so
25:38
much more of a platform for the for the story.
25:41
But I'm sure in Shogun it must have been, you know.
25:45
Yeah. Well, and those fabrics were the
25:47
ones coming from Japan. Then we, you know, obviously
25:50
made our own textiles and played with, you know, specific
25:53
patterns of that period. We had a big textile team that
25:57
helped us to recreate fabrics from that period.
26:00
So you know. That is the one thing that I
26:02
felt in Vancouver. I know on Altar Carbon, I was
26:05
really impressed with their aging dyeing the textiles
26:10
department because they're really and same within London.
26:13
I mean, the craftspeople were beyond.
26:16
Beyond. Amazing beyond and what was
26:20
warmed my heart is that they were young people too.
26:23
There were young people learning how to be tailors or how
26:26
learning how to be specialty customers or milliners, I mean.
26:30
Absolutely. And that's what I love about my
26:32
crew is the fact that, you know, for the entire project, which is
26:35
something that I rarely hear anywhere else in the world as
26:38
I've been working with different crews.
26:40
They said, Carlos, because sometimes I would be like, no,
26:42
this is too ambitious. This is too much work.
26:44
I feel bad for you guys. Let's just, you know, lower our
26:47
expectations. And they were like, no, no, no,
26:49
whatever we need to do in order to keep your vision intact, we
26:54
will do it. And I thought that word vision
26:57
is rarely mentioned. And I really, you're absolutely
27:00
right. My crew in Vancouver were true
27:03
artists that loved their craft. And I'll tell you this also that
27:08
I thought was very interesting is that for the first five
27:10
episodes, I hired a very, you know, very, very talented
27:15
textile artist, Matt, Matt, right, smell right, who did all
27:19
the, you know, textiles for the Last Samurai and M was in the
27:22
Geisha. And of course he came with, he's
27:24
very knowledgeable. He did a beautiful work.
27:27
You know, he has an incredible career, but he comes with all
27:31
his machines and his techniques and, and all that.
27:33
When he left, he could only give me, you know, time for five
27:37
episodes When when he left, I was really freaking out and I'm
27:40
like, Oh my God, what are we going to do?
27:42
The interesting thing is that I feel my work is actually better
27:46
in the last five episodes because we played with the most
27:51
basic things, painting and stencils and, you know, very
27:55
simple things. And the fact that it just became
27:58
very. Less technical.
28:02
Artistic, yes, you know, and So what about you on low key?
28:06
How did you a lot of the fabrics that you know have a very
28:09
specific colour? Yeah.
28:11
Did you find those fabrics in that colour palette, or did you
28:16
dye everything very much? We had to we dyed a a lot, I
28:21
mean everything and and especially the first season, I
28:24
didn't have a lot of prep. So it was a real scramble
28:28
because as you know, with anything, a world building, you
28:31
need like 50 yards of everything.
28:34
And I'm sure I thought about that was Shogun.
28:37
I mean, Oh my God, you have so many stunts and spend all of
28:40
that that you just have these constraints of yardage, right?
28:44
So really like it was like these mad scrambles of dying
28:48
something. But but also like the final
28:50
episode, I really wanted a certain I was dying to get,
28:55
well, really all of the both seasons.
28:58
I love the challenge of keeping things practical or in camera.
29:02
So it's dying for the Cape to really work on its own and not
29:05
be CG Ed so. And that's always challenging,
29:08
right, to find that sort of balance between something that
29:12
is creative and then, you know, you need to take into
29:15
consideration the technical aspect of it.
29:17
Yeah, but it's like what you said though, because then it
29:20
just sort of informs the design in the end because because
29:24
you're not locking yourself into just one like a fashion part of
29:31
yours, you're you're addressing all and it might be a happy
29:34
mistake in the end. So for me, a lot of it just
29:37
became a happy like end result to the design because it was,
29:42
you know, came from all angles really.
29:45
And it also creates like very, you know, clear boundaries of,
29:49
you know, where we can play with creativity when you need to take
29:53
consideration the practical aspect of it, the technical
29:56
aspect of it. I just think that designing
29:58
costumes is not just about having a vision.
30:01
And then you don't, you need to take in consideration so many
30:04
different things. And in a way I find that very
30:06
healthy and helpful because then you know your boundaries.
30:09
This is where I can play within this circumstances, these
30:13
parameters. What is it that you can design,
30:16
don't you think? Yes, absolutely.
30:19
Because otherwise your design becomes very ungrounded and you
30:21
kind of lose yourself within all these different options and
30:24
possibilities. So I always try to start with a
30:27
very grounded place of the things that I know for sure it
30:31
need to happen with the costume. And then that is my foundation.
30:34
Then I take it from there. Yes, me too, absolutely.
30:38
Because especially when just when things are just design for
30:41
design's sake, I think it really kind of just shows.
30:44
I think it really you need to take all of those boundaries
30:48
into consideration. And I mean, I don't know about
30:50
you, but I read a script like five times before I even get
30:54
into it. I read it for one.
30:56
I read it just for tone. I read it then for background.
30:59
I read it for costumes. I read it for stunts.
31:01
I read it for uniforms. I like have to read it.
31:04
I think that's really old training though, because Carol
31:06
Ramsey taught me to read scripts in a very specific order.
31:10
So I think I just have always held on to to that little gem
31:15
that you gave. Me.
31:17
Oh, I read the script so many times.
31:19
Yes, so many times. And actually I do my own
31:22
breakdown because the only way the script can actually get into
31:25
my head and the breakdown is only for me, you know, it's not
31:29
just something that I could just give to the team.
31:31
It's just I need to take the page and write everything
31:34
separately. So when I write it, it just
31:37
gets, you know, some somehow it just sticks in my brain in a way
31:42
and you know, and that's when I started creative processing a
31:44
way and start thinking about the characters.
31:46
But I need to write it myself, you know, and maybe I won't see
31:50
it later on, but it's just, it just gets printed a bit stronger
31:54
in my head when I do my own breakdown.
31:58
Does do you do that too? I absolutely have to do my own
32:02
breakdown. You know, just listening to you
32:04
makes me think, I wish that that somebody would do a book, a
32:08
photo book of all of our offices.
32:10
Like, I want to see what your office looks like.
32:13
I want to know what does your office look like?
32:15
What did your office look like on Shogun?
32:17
Oh. My God, it was.
32:20
You know, like, wouldn't it be so fun to just see what
32:23
everybody's offices look like? Yeah, but absolutely.
32:27
And I think that, you know, with all the swatches and all the
32:30
drawings, you know, it's also so inspiring.
32:33
But that's why the reason why since Shogun came out, I felt
32:35
like a little bit that sense of responsibility of like posting a
32:39
little bit, you know, on Instagram, things about the
32:42
costumes and the background, you know, behind it, the, the, the
32:46
approach to the costume, how we got to that place.
32:49
Because I feel like people don't know enough about what we do and
32:52
how much work, you know, happens behind the scenes for us to get
32:57
to that final costume. You know, there's so many
32:59
different feelings and and things that you need to try.
33:02
It's just not linear. And also think about with your
33:04
with Shogun or Loki, I mean, you're also dealing with actor
33:07
comfortability. I mean, all that armor and then
33:10
having to do stunts and then you're in a hot environment, a
33:13
cold environment, you know, yeah, there's just that whole
33:18
side to it that. Absolutely.
33:22
Oh my God, tell me. I mean, the, the armors, that
33:25
was something quite, you know, ambitious.
33:28
Yeah, it was quite ambitious because I, I actually, that was,
33:33
I needed to start with designing the, the armour since the
33:35
beginning. I needed to give, you know,
33:40
enough time to our manufacturing companies in China to make those
33:44
armours for, I mean, literally the first day of shooting.
33:48
So, and we had about four months and a half of shooting.
33:51
So it really of prepping. So it really wasn't that much.
33:55
And when I started, I was on my own.
33:57
I was about with maybe like 10 people for the first 2-3 months
34:01
because actually my team was busy on another show.
34:05
And so the arms were complicated because I've never done anything
34:08
related to Japanese clothing. And so I needed to do all the
34:10
research and then all the drawings and everything had to
34:14
be designed. And, you know, within six weeks,
34:18
six weeks, everything needed to be done.
34:21
All the armours for every army, different ranks.
34:23
And then the armours for the Lords were actually, you know,
34:27
separate, different from everybody else.
34:30
So that was challenging. And that's also one of our
34:32
challenges as, as costume designers is the fact that we
34:36
need to just, you know, adapt to sometimes time limits.
34:41
And, you know, it was crazy. And what about what are the
34:45
challenges in Loki that you'd felt that were the most
34:48
difficult for you to face in Season 2?
34:52
I have the same language of Season 2.
34:54
I mean, I had the same thing with like the temporal core
34:56
suit. There is just a time now.
34:58
There just isn't a lot of time and it's so awkward and and big,
35:02
you know, and then you need the multiples and you don't.
35:04
Yeah, it's just I, I find that my biggest friend for anything
35:10
like that is modular is just, is immediately thinking of things
35:15
as being modular. So I could just I designed
35:18
things to be modular so I can pivot fast and it can
35:22
accommodate to stunts and comfortability fast.
35:25
And if something breaks or something design wise changes,
35:29
it gives me more mobility, right to to operate in that world.
35:34
But there were yeah, I mean, that's AI mean actually in
35:38
season 2, there was much more of a period there was like there it
35:42
was all kind of going back in time.
35:44
So I didn't have as much that last minute, you know, scramble
35:52
for. And I think that you're right,
35:55
that is one of our challenges as costume designers is the fact
35:57
that it's not just about the design, is that we need to think
36:00
about anything that could go wrong.
36:02
And you need to be ready for that, right?
36:06
And so that implies so much work to make sure that, well, you
36:09
know, this is my costume, but what, you know, I need to, you
36:14
know, come up with a lot of other backups just in case,
36:18
right? And just make sure that it's
36:20
going to work with me. I really believe in the
36:23
performance and, and being, I mean, listen, there are times
36:27
like say with that suit where it was important that actually it
36:29
was cumbersome so that it would help the actors in their
36:32
performance be cumbersome. I like to consider how how
36:38
costume effects people and like heels, high heels versus flats
36:42
or how it how it really it, you know, has affectation, right?
36:48
So I, I like to consider that or and I also think that their
36:53
comfortability is important, like doing that thing for
36:56
Sylvie's character because she was breastfeeding.
36:58
I think it's important because I want her to be focused on her
37:01
job. I want her to be focused on her
37:04
performance, not like. Yeah, well, and that's the
37:09
reason why I made the armours in, in leather, you know, much
37:13
because leather is so much lighter than, you know, sort of
37:18
usually when, you know, designers make samurai armours,
37:21
they always make it in iron, you know, in, in sort of metal.
37:25
And I just felt like they, you know, those would be way too
37:29
heavy. So I decided to go for like a
37:31
really lightweight leather that was mounted, you know, on
37:35
something else. But, you know, just speaking
37:38
about what you were saying about, you know, costumes that
37:41
were practical and that really, you know, our function is also
37:45
to design costumes that actually allow the, you know, our actors
37:48
to perform properly without being, you know, restricted by
37:52
the costume. So, you know, our, you know, our
37:55
actors were able to wear those armors the entire day without
37:58
being tired. You know, I mean, I think I
38:02
counted once and there was 45 different pieces in those
38:04
armors. So it was important to actually
38:07
make them really light. And I remember Mr. Sanada,
38:09
Sanada San, you know, said that, you know, that was the lightest
38:15
armor he's ever worn. So that was good because that
38:17
really allowed him to do is, you know, his performance properly.
38:21
You know, it's, that's another layer of what we do.
38:28
Kind of a change of topic though, because I I was thinking
38:31
about the armor and I was thinking how much did you do a
38:34
lot of did when you had to design the fly like that.
38:37
Did you do much backdating in Shogun?
38:40
Did you backdate periods? Did you go before the send go
38:44
like? Yes, because we had a lot of
38:46
flashbacks. Yes.
38:48
Actually, not all the flashbacks made it, Yeah.
38:51
Like even like the armor for the day, was there like a kind of a
38:56
a backdating happening? Because like, I know when I do
38:58
period, I'm always thinking about there was always people
39:01
that wear stuff from 50 years ago or generational.
39:06
Absolutely. And that's a really good point
39:08
that you bring up, is that I think when you do period, you
39:11
need to understand what happened before and what happened after,
39:14
right? And so you could place your
39:16
costumes within that time frame. But sometimes you can actually
39:20
go to the past in order to take elements that could actually you
39:24
could bring into your characters to tell the story of who they
39:27
are. Absolutely.
39:28
I love to do that, yeah. Yeah, I know.
39:31
I think it's a really, I, I noticed it right now when I'm
39:34
watching period films because I I long for a little bit more
39:38
backdating, come back into the costume psyche because I think
39:44
it just makes things so much more believable and less campy.
39:48
Yes. And as a matter of fact, for us,
39:51
when we started designing the costumes, we did research on
39:53
paintings, you know, as you know, our main source of
39:59
inspiration. And so I looked at paintings
40:01
prior to our. You know, period.
40:04
Your actual period, right? Yeah, because I thought that was
40:07
fascinating, you know, and, and what they would be wearing in
40:10
our period was an influence of what happened before.
40:13
So it was important to incorporate that into their
40:16
costumes too, you know? And how about like, how about
40:20
the aging and, and the aging of those costumes?
40:24
What was that like for you especially?
40:26
You have these big huge armies and.
40:29
Yeah, I mean, listen, for me, the textile breakdown room is
40:32
my, I'm like a kid in a candy. I mean, I just like, I love it.
40:36
So I usually, I mean, that goes with the color palettes really,
40:40
you know, it goes with that world of like breaking down
40:42
everything, aging everything, dyeing everything.
40:45
So I think I'm, you know, that's one of my favorite things.
40:48
And yes, with the armours for everything.
40:50
And that's the reason why I chose leather actually, because
40:53
it breaks down so beautifully, you know?
40:56
Totally. But do you?
40:58
Are you finding that the camera, because, and I'd love to pick
41:02
your brain on this because it's something that I'm always trying
41:05
to keep up with, is just that the camera I grew up with in
41:10
film is certainly not the camera that we have today.
41:15
And I'm finding that the aging, dying process is a very
41:19
difficult thing because things are looking very painted and not
41:23
looking very real. And I, I don't know, like if you
41:26
had those same issues. Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
41:29
It's always tricky. It's always.
41:31
But the good thing that you know, on TV is that you can
41:33
actually you start seeing the dailies and then you can adjust,
41:38
right. I mean, of course there is the
41:40
camera test, but I feel like you need to see the dailies with the
41:44
final lighting and you know, all the background already dressed
41:48
with makeup and hair and the you know, and on location and and
41:51
all that to give you a really good assessment of how you need
41:55
to shift that breakdown, you know, but yes, absolutely, I
41:58
think this days is really complicated.
42:00
That's. Really complicated, especially
42:02
when you have a costume that goes from an interior, a darkly
42:06
lit an exterior. Total oaf.
42:09
That's the hardest part. It's almost like, do I make two?
42:13
What? About exactly Yes, absolutely.
42:19
I came up with that problem many times.
42:21
It's like do I need to do 2? Because what the way I break
42:24
down the costume inside and with that specific lighting, it's
42:28
going to react completely different outside.
42:30
And you know, in inside you need to exaggerate everything outside
42:35
you need to be subtle. And so it's a bit complicated,
42:38
you know, but I think that's part of the creative process.
42:41
It's so, so exciting to adjust what we need to do and
42:44
completely. I think that's one of the the
42:47
our qualities as designer that I think brings a lot to the table
42:51
is being alert. We need to be alert, you know,
42:55
of anything that's going to come up, you know?
42:58
Yeah. It's exciting, actually.
43:00
I mean, I'm glad that it's always evolving.
43:03
I think that's why we have landed in this profession and
43:06
probably every person on that set has landed in the position
43:10
that they're in because we like the challenge of the it's no
43:15
movies the same, no no one movie, no one product.
43:18
But that's what's exciting about it.
43:20
It's just, I just feel like, you know, constant continuously.
43:22
It's just a different pilgrimage.
43:24
It's a different story. It's a different yeah adventure,
43:27
you know, and I find that exciting.
43:29
And that's why I feel like, you know, you always have to be
43:32
alert, you know, and because it's always different, it's a
43:35
different container every time. And I find that fascinating.
43:38
You need to be on your toes all the time.
43:40
There is no time to be to be bored.
43:42
And Christine, I want to ask you one last question before we go.
43:45
You've done a little bit of everything in your career, you
43:48
know, not only in terms of positions in the custom
43:51
department, but in terms as a designer, in terms of different
43:54
styles and, you know, contemporary and period and
43:57
everything. What makes your heart sing the
44:00
most with those different types of projects?
44:04
Wow, do I have to just pick one? No, no, it could be anything.
44:08
No, of course. Is there one specifically that
44:11
you feel more excited about? Right now and listen, this could
44:16
all change in a year, but right now I really do love world
44:21
building and you love period because period.
44:24
I love a colour palette and I like texture and colour palette
44:27
and just being so very focused on character instead of, well,
44:34
it could be, you know, H&M or you know, whatever.
44:37
I feel the same way. I feel like making everything is
44:41
so gratifying. It's so.
44:46
It's so gratifying it. Is I mean.
44:50
I mean, we're lucky to be, to be to have that chance of being to
44:55
be hired on projects that allow us to work with this incredible
45:00
artist. You know, and you had an amazing
45:03
team on Low Key and I have an incredible team showdown work
45:07
with them and being able to to make things that allow us to
45:10
actually create our vision for the project.
45:12
I mean, it can't get better than that it.
45:14
Can't get better than I feel lucky every day I'm doing it
45:18
honestly. I feel the same way.
45:19
It just exercises so many different parts of my brain.
45:22
I mean, I always and a part of me always jokes that I also
45:26
probably would have been really good at like building bridges.
45:28
I think there is a part of me that loves engineering.
45:31
Like I At one point I really thought I wanted to do specialty
45:35
because I. Yeah, I love that too.
45:36
Or like special effects because I love to figure out how do you
45:41
make a blood that that I don't know, you know, just their
45:44
thing. Yeah.
45:44
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not that world is fascinating.
45:46
But then there's also the whole notion of like just with modern,
45:52
with contemporary, it's learning how to make something feel so
45:55
real. And I think my biggest challenge
45:58
right now is trying to take my take the ego out of it a little
46:02
bit and remembering that costume sometimes needs to take a
46:06
backseat depending on the stock. Really pacing out your your
46:11
choices. Yes, sorry, I feel very attached
46:16
to that right now because I watch things and I feel like
46:19
everybody is a little bit trying to get all the attention.
46:22
Every department's trying to get all the attention, and I think
46:25
it's really important that we all remember that what we're
46:28
really trying to do is tell a story.
46:29
Absolutely, I agree with you. I agree with you.
46:31
And I think for me, here's a perfect example.
46:34
I think Shogun was definitely about, you know, the costumes
46:37
needed to to be bigger than life because those characters were
46:41
extraordinary. And I knew that costumes needed
46:45
to step up and just kind of a little bit, you know, in a way
46:49
still the show because it really the characters were so complex
46:54
and deep and, and, you know, the, the, the costumes were
46:57
really telling the story of who they were.
46:59
So it was important for me to just kind of like empower myself
47:03
as a designer, which is really the first time that I've done
47:05
this and find my own creative voice and say, OK, this is the
47:10
time where I trust really need to step up.
47:15
Yeah, absolutely. And I was like usually I said
47:18
less is more. In this case, I want more is
47:20
more. In Alien, it was completely the
47:22
opposite. In Alien, the costumes needed to
47:24
be to disappear. And so you're absolutely right.
47:27
I think sometimes you need to as as an artist, you need to gauge
47:31
where you need to place yourself within both the departments.
47:35
Yeah, I think, I think that's a something that I'm looking
47:39
forward to addressing next, you know, and just like moving
47:43
forward because I'm always trying to think of and I'm sure
47:45
you are too. Like what do I want my next
47:47
challenge to be on my next project?
47:50
What do I want to focus in on and what do I want to learn and
47:53
what what do I want to, I don't know that I believe in
47:55
perfection, but what do I want to perfect?
47:58
But somewhat right. Yeah.
48:01
My question to you is, this is going to be crazy.
48:04
So then what do you do to recharge like between your
48:07
projects? Do you find yourself just
48:09
totally getting away from costumes or what?
48:11
Yes. Oh, yes, absolutely.
48:13
I love to travel. I love to disconnect from
48:15
everything. Yeah, absolutely.
48:16
I mean, the good thing is that I'm in Europe, so I'm completely
48:19
disconnected from, you know, our community in Los Angeles.
48:23
And, you know, I like to travel, honestly, I like to travel.
48:26
And that really, you know, and also, I mean, you know, we're
48:30
talking earlier about family. You know, as you get older, you
48:33
have responsibilities and you need to deal with that too.
48:36
So, you know, there is also our own personal lives that, you
48:41
know, we need to address between projects.
48:43
Once we started, we have, we don't have much time for
48:46
anything else. So this is the time where, you
48:48
know, I like to recharge my batteries by reconnecting with,
48:52
you know, with my friends and family.
48:53
And, you know, I think that's very healthy.
48:56
And it really, you know, fills my spirit.
48:58
You know, Christine, we've known each other for a long time.
49:01
And I love that we had this conversation.
49:04
You and I, we could go on forever.
49:06
I'm beyond excited for you. Congratulations on your first of
49:09
many Emmys. Thank you.
49:12
Thank you so much. Thank you.
49:13
I love you, Christine. I love you so much.
49:15
Thank you and I'll see you very soon.
49:17
Oh. That's right, I will see you
49:19
soon. Yes, we'll celebrate together.
49:21
That'll be amazing. Thank you, Christine.
49:23
I love you. Thank you.
49:25
Love you too. Bye.