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KOHBERGER TRIAL FIASCO IGNITES ANGER, POISONS LOCALS? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 2: Brian Coburger's trial erupts in anger in the courtroom. Are
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Speaker 2: local potential jurors being poisoned? I'mancy Grace, this is crime stories.
0:35
Speaker 2: The judge erupts in anger in the courtroom as we
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Speaker 2: learn the defense team for Brian Coberger has been reaching
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Speaker 2: out my phone to potential gurrrs, basically tainting the jury pool.
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Speaker 2: But now we realize giving away their defense strategy. You know,
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Speaker 2: it has been so long now since the quadrat slay
1:00
Speaker 2: in Idaho, many people are getting fuzzy on the facts,
1:05
Speaker 2: and that's exactly what the defense wants.
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Speaker 1: Delay.
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Speaker 2: Delay is a defense attorney's best friend. But here's a
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Speaker 2: harsh reminder.
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Speaker 3: On the evening of November twelfth and into the early
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Speaker 3: morning hours of November thirteenth, Kaylee and Madison arrived home
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Speaker 3: at approximately one forty five am after visiting a local
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Speaker 3: bar and a street food vendor. Ethan and Xana were
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Speaker 3: also out in the community as Sigma Chai, and they
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Speaker 3: arrived home at approximately one forty five am. Two surviving
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Speaker 3: roommates who were also at in the community arrived home
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Speaker 3: at approximately one am. Later on the morning of November thirteenth,
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Speaker 3: at eleven fifty eight am, a nine on one call
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Speaker 3: was placed. The call reported an unconscious person. The call
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Speaker 3: originated from inside the residence and a surviving room made
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Speaker 3: cell phone was.
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Speaker 2: Used, but it was not an unconscious person. Listen more
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Speaker 2: to Police Captain Roger Lamier.
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Speaker 3: During that call, the dispatcher spoke to multiple people who
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Speaker 3: were unseen. Moscow police officers responded and found two victims,
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Speaker 3: two on the second floor and two on the third
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Speaker 3: floor of eleven twenty two King Road. The results of
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Speaker 3: autopsies indicated that the four were stabbed multiple times and
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Speaker 3: were likely asleep during the attack. Some had defensive wounds,
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Speaker 3: and there was no sign of sexual assault.
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Speaker 2: Joining me an all star panel to make sense of
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Speaker 2: what we know right now.
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Speaker 1: But there is.
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Speaker 2: A major, major kerfuffle in the courtroom, igniting anger from
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Speaker 2: the judge.
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Speaker 1: Is it true that.
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Speaker 2: Kuberger's defense team has actually been communicating with potential jurors
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Speaker 2: long before a jury is even struck And is this
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Speaker 2: an insidious way of tainting the jury pool and getting
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Speaker 2: the change of venue they so desperately want.
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Speaker 1: Take a listen to Dave Matt Crime Online.
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Speaker 4: As the Coburger defense team moves ahead with their preparation
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Speaker 4: to get the trial moved out of Leyta County. They
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Speaker 4: put together a research project and hired a polling company
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Speaker 4: to conduct a survey of area residents and ask them
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Speaker 4: questions about how much they may know about the murders.
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Speaker 4: The company had reached around four hundred residents before a
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Speaker 4: concerted citizen recorded one of the survey phone calls and
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Speaker 4: contacted the district attorney's office to complain about the call.
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Speaker 4: Prosecutors now say the polling company was asking questions to
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Speaker 4: plant negative opinions of Coburger in potential jurors minds, and
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Speaker 4: the hopes the calls would serve to prove that local
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Speaker 4: people were prejudiced against Coburger and the trial should be
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Speaker 4: moved to another county first too.
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Speaker 2: Highly respected a journalists, the Crime and Courts correspondent at Newsweek,
3:55
Speaker 2: Sean adriscoll, Shawn, thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 1: What the hay is happening?
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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's this very serious development, Nancy. We have a
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Speaker 5: situation where four hundred jurors in a small county have
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Speaker 5: now been contacted and told to have been given nine
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Speaker 5: questions about how they feel about Brian Colberger. And those
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Speaker 5: are questions that if they were ignoring this case, they
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Speaker 5: now know an awful lot about it, very incriminating information
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Speaker 5: about Brian Colberger that is now, as a prosecutor said,
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Speaker 5: is now saturated with the juror, with potential jurors in
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Speaker 5: the case.
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Speaker 2: You know what's interesting, guys with me Sean and Driscoll,
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Speaker 2: Crime and Courts correspondent Newsweek to Tara Malik joining US
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Speaker 2: high profile lawyer out of this jurisdiction there in Idaho
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Speaker 2: at Smith Malik dot com. Tara, if the state the
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Speaker 2: prosecution had done this, you know what would happen. Very
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Speaker 2: possibly a misdraw before this Trilley even starts with prejudice.
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Speaker 2: In other words, the state may not be allowed to
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Speaker 2: re try the case.
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Speaker 1: And this is a big deal, Tara, It's a very
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Speaker 1: big deal.
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Speaker 6: I mean, just to remind everyone, there's been a gag
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Speaker 6: order issued by the judge, and so the parties are
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Speaker 6: not supposed to be speaking publicly or disseminating publicly anything
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Speaker 6: about the case. And so the judge certainly made it
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Speaker 6: clear that he was displeased with the process that the
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Speaker 6: defense had undertaken to go about this pulling. And you're
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Speaker 6: talking about a small a small county, four hundred people
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Speaker 6: being contacted is a really big deal. And some of
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Speaker 6: those questions were certainly seemed to be planting information or
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Speaker 6: suggesting information that I think the prosecutor even remarked were
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Speaker 6: not actually accurate and wouldn't be introduced at the trial itself.
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Speaker 2: Okay, she sounded like a criminal procedure professor speaking to
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Speaker 2: three l's, not one ls, but three l's because they
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Speaker 2: know a good bit of procedural language.
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Speaker 1: Tara, let me break.
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Speaker 2: It down these questions that were asked potential jurrrs on
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Speaker 2: the phone, and the judge got ahold of an audio tape.
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Speaker 2: Somebody taped one of these calls from the defense, and
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Speaker 2: it brings up issues that may not even be allowed
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Speaker 2: at trial. Hey, let's see the tears of what exactly
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Speaker 2: was asked of these potential jurrrs. Nine questions that we
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Speaker 2: know of the judge whose last name is judge, judge judge,
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Speaker 2: let me just say royally pod technical legal term. Okay,
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Speaker 2: here we go. Have you read, seen or heard? And
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Speaker 2: Brian Coberger was arrested at his parents' home in Pennsylvania. Well,
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Speaker 2: whoa wait a minute, what if the circumstances of that arrest.
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Speaker 1: Had been thrown out?
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Speaker 2: What if the jury wasn't allowed to hear that he
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Speaker 2: was apprehended standing in his kitchen, his parents' kitchen, and
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Speaker 2: in some shorts. I think possibly is underwear, wearing rubbert gloves,
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Speaker 2: separating trash. Okay, right there, straight one, What normal guy
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Speaker 2: is wearing rubber gloves in his parents' kitchen, in his
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Speaker 2: underwear separating the trash? Okay?
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Speaker 1: Number two?
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Speaker 2: Have you read, seen or heard if police found a
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Speaker 2: knife sheath on the bed next to one of the victims. Okay,
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Speaker 2: that goes straight to finding DNA? Nine questions in all
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Speaker 2: very quickly. If I could see three and four, have
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Speaker 2: you read, seen or heard that DNA found on the
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Speaker 2: knife sheath was later matched to Brian Coburger?
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Speaker 1: Okay, wait a minute, Wait a minute, what.
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Speaker 2: If by some impossible feat the defense managed to get
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Speaker 2: that DNA thrown out? Well, now they've just tained the
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Speaker 2: jury pool by telling them there was DNA on the
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Speaker 2: knife sheath that matched to Brian Coburger.
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Speaker 1: Four.
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Speaker 2: Have you read, seen or heard if Coburger owned the
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Speaker 2: same top of car reported seeing driving in the neighborhood
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Speaker 2: where the killings occurred right there, we see where the
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Speaker 2: defense is going. We all know his vehicle was spotted
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Speaker 2: in the area. Hold on is cart before the horse,
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Speaker 2: But now we see they're headed towards saying that just
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Speaker 2: looked like his car, not his car. Five Have you read, scene,
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Speaker 2: or heard if the cell phone tower data showed Coburger
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Speaker 2: made several trips near the victim's home in the month
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Speaker 2: before the killing. That tells me they're going to attack
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Speaker 2: the cell phone tower information.
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Speaker 1: Have you read, seen, or heard if.
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Speaker 2: University students in Moscow and their parents lived in fear
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Speaker 2: until Coburger was.
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Speaker 1: Arrested for the mers. What does that tell me?
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Speaker 2: They're going to tell the jury that Coburger's arrest was
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Speaker 2: premature and police were pressured because everyone was living in fear.
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Speaker 1: Let's see the rest. Let's see number seven.
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Speaker 2: Have you read or heard if Coburger said he was
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Speaker 2: out driving alone.
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Speaker 1: The night of the murders?
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Speaker 2: Man, I'd come up with a different alibi if I could,
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Speaker 2: But sadly for them, they've already committed to this. They
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Speaker 2: can't change it now. Eight Have you read, seen, or
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Speaker 2: heard Coburger stopped one of the victims? What what is
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Speaker 2: that about? Stopped one of the victims. I think they
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Speaker 2: meant to say stalked one of the victims. Did they
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Speaker 2: actually say stopped and the court somehow transcribed it incorrectly.
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Speaker 2: And nine have you read, seen or heard if Coburger
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Speaker 2: had followed one of the victims on social media? And
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Speaker 2: you know what's interesting that may not even come into evidence.
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Speaker 2: Allegations that Coburger had been stalking and we think it
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Speaker 2: was Kelly gonsolvice not sure yet one of the victims
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Speaker 2: on social that may never come into evidence. Okay, back
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Speaker 2: to our all Star panel. To Sean O'Driscoll, Crime and
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Speaker 2: Courts correspondent for a newsweek Hey, Sean, I want you
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Speaker 2: to take a listen to the prosecutor angry.
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Speaker 1: This is him angry in court. Listen, honored.
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Speaker 7: There is absolutely no question but that those questions are
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Speaker 7: disseminating by means of communication, evidence extended to be presented,
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Speaker 7: evidence that could be or would be an invincible of trial.
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Speaker 8: And I will say there are a number of these
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Speaker 8: representations placed in the form of a question, but representations
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Speaker 8: of the fact that are not true or it would
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Speaker 8: not be offered to try.
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Speaker 1: Shawn and driscoll joining us from news Week.
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Speaker 2: They're basically leading questions, which is what prosecutor or the
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Speaker 2: defense would do if they had a witness from the
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Speaker 2: other side. On cross examination. You basically give your theory
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Speaker 2: of the case one sentence at a time, and at
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Speaker 2: the end you say, isn't that true. That's basically what
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Speaker 2: these questions are. Now tell me the whole thing. How
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Speaker 2: did this go down?
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Speaker 1: Sean?
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Speaker 5: They hired a polling company for the defense to try
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Speaker 5: and show that there was too much bias against Brian
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Speaker 5: Coger Coberger in the local county. So then they called somebody.
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Speaker 5: That person got a bit suspicious as a call, recorded
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Speaker 5: a call, and then went to the DA's office to
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Speaker 5: make a complaint about it. And that's when they learned
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Speaker 5: about all of these questions. And as you said, they
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Speaker 5: are leading questions. I mean, a very definition of a
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Speaker 5: leading question is whether you can answer it but a
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Speaker 5: as or no question, all of which in this case
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Speaker 5: you can. I mean, it's it's you know, it's like,
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Speaker 5: are you aware that Nancy Grace's accused of stealing a
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Speaker 5: handbag and that we all now live in fear of her?
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Speaker 5: I mean, it's so changing the jury pool. As tutor
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Speaker 5: says that it's difficult to see how they can how
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Speaker 5: they can continue on with this because four hundred people
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Speaker 5: are now aware of all of these.
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Speaker 2: Questions, and as Tara Mallik pointed out a high profile lawyer,
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Speaker 2: they are in Idaho.
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Speaker 1: It's a very small jurisdiction.
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Speaker 2: Hey, there's nothing wrong with being a small jurisdiction.
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Speaker 1: I grew up in rural Bibb County. We were not
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Speaker 1: even in a city, a very idyllic childhood.
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Speaker 2: So this city people keep saying, oh, it's small, like
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Speaker 2: there's something wrong with it.
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Speaker 1: But what that means for us is that.
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Speaker 2: This has a more profound effect on a smaller jury pool,
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Speaker 2: because four hundred people out of a jury pool of
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Speaker 2: three thousand is a lot that's hypothetical. Let me bring
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Speaker 2: in our other guests. I want to go first to
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Speaker 2: Chris McDonough. He is a director of the Cold Case Foundation,
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Speaker 2: former homicide detective with hundreds and hundreds of homicide investigations
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Speaker 2: under his belt.
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Speaker 1: I found him on the.
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Speaker 2: Interview room and what fascinated me with what he did
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Speaker 2: along with his wife, They were driving at about two
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Speaker 2: miles an hour. This is before I went to Moscow
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Speaker 2: and showing me everything I needed to know about the
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Speaker 2: layout of where the murder scene was, the roads.
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Speaker 1: That led to it, They're very narrow.
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Speaker 2: There were so many evidentiary details in that drive along.
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Speaker 2: I had to meet this guy, and everything I learned
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Speaker 2: in that video turned out to be true. Chris McDonough
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Speaker 2: and Joe Scott Morgan, I want to talk to the
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Speaker 2: two of you. Joe Scott, of course, is Professor Forensics
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Speaker 2: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon.
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Speaker 2: He is a death investigator, and he is the host
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Speaker 2: of Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan podcast.
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Speaker 1: Now to Chris and Joe Scott.
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Speaker 2: First to you, Chris, we're talking about courtroom antics.
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Speaker 1: Talk about what.
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Speaker 2: This case is about, because as Liz and Jackie were
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Speaker 2: showing me photos and sound, we're kind of forgetting about
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Speaker 2: the four victims.
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Speaker 1: Look at them, Look at them. This is them in life.
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Speaker 2: Joe Scott's going to tell you about how they were
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Speaker 2: found in death. But isn't it true, Chris McDonough, that
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Speaker 2: so often the victims get lost in the sauce of
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Speaker 2: all the courtroom antics. I mean, I could just snap
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Speaker 2: the head off this defense attorney Ann Taylor if I
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Speaker 2: could get close enough to her, Chris, bring it all
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Speaker 2: home about these victims losing their lives.
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Speaker 9: Yeah, let's never forget that, right, Anci. I mean, here
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Speaker 9: you have four innocent college students with their whole lives
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Speaker 9: ahead of them, I mean, and then they're slaughtered in
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Speaker 9: their bedroom where they're sleeping. And that means generations now
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Speaker 9: have stopped instantly, no more, you know, grand babies, et cetera,
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Speaker 9: for the for the surviving family members as well. So
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Speaker 9: this is a huge, huge situation where the victims do
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Speaker 9: get lost sometimes through the courtroom. And I think it's
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Speaker 9: imperative that not only the community around there, but you know,
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Speaker 9: to your point, the world. Remember, they have to remember
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Speaker 9: that the victims here need justice and that justice needs
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Speaker 9: to come swiftly sometimes and these court romantics like this
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Speaker 9: sometimes you don't clog that wheel.
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Speaker 2: This guy is reportedly getting Vegan Mills his own TV,
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Speaker 2: control of the remote visits, you name it. I guarantee
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Speaker 2: you he's getting love letters. Think about that for a moment.
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Speaker 2: What is the judge talking about that he the judge
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Speaker 2: who is judge Judge Judges his last name, that he
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Speaker 2: is somehow violating the rights of Coburger, I'll tell you
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Speaker 2: in a nutshell. First of all, the Coburger judge slamming
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Speaker 2: the defense for quizzing local potential jurors, basically causing an
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Speaker 2: error in the trial yet to be and guaranteeing a
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Speaker 2: change of venue, which is what they want. But also
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Speaker 2: a very insidious, sneaky thing they did was that when
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Speaker 2: the judge wanted to stop the polling, they are now
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Speaker 2: claiming that it's violating Coburger's right to due process.
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Speaker 1: What is due process?
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Speaker 2: It means that basically, you're getting treated fairly under the
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Speaker 2: system that we have established in the US.
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Speaker 1: You get a right to a jury, you.
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Speaker 2: Get a right to a fair jury, you get a
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Speaker 2: right to a trial, you get a right to a lawyer,
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Speaker 2: even if you.
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Speaker 1: Cannot afford one.
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Speaker 2: There's a whole host of rights and pre and everyone
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Speaker 2: is to be afforded due process, a fair trial. They're
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Speaker 2: now claiming the judge has taken that away from Brian Coburger.
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Speaker 2: He's kicked back, having his vegan meal right now, lapping
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Speaker 2: his rear end off. Okay, I want to talk one
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Speaker 2: more moment before you go back into what's happening right now.
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Speaker 2: The anger that has been ignited in this courtroom. And
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Speaker 2: I want to go to Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics,
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Speaker 2: Jacksonville State University.
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Speaker 1: Joe Scott, A lot is being made of trial maneuvers.
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Speaker 2: I want to talk about how these four beautiful young
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Speaker 2: Idaho students were found. See we're seeing them in life.
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Speaker 2: That's not how they were found. That is not how,
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Speaker 2: according to the state, Coburger left them.
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Speaker 1: Explain.
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Speaker 10: Chris mentioned the term a little while ago of slaughter,
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Speaker 10: and I'd say that that kind of sums it up
17:59
Speaker 10: what we're talking about here, because we're talking about multiple
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Speaker 10: stab wounds and not just stab wounds if we are
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Speaker 10: to believe what has been released relative to these defensive injuries,
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Speaker 10: and also one injury in particular defensively where it sounds
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Speaker 10: as though perhaps the knife was actually drug across the
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Speaker 10: palm of one of the victim's hands, cutting all the
18:19
Speaker 10: way down to the tendons. These were viable, young, lovely students, children,
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Speaker 10: somebody's children certainly that loved them very much, and now
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Speaker 10: they're absolutely gone. And Nancy, one other thing here that
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Speaker 10: we really have to plumb the depths of here. Aside
18:37
Speaker 10: from all of these wranglings that they're talking about. This
18:40
Speaker 10: is okay. If I were to rap this case one
18:44
Speaker 10: to ten, ten being the most complex relative to the
18:48
Speaker 10: forensics that are involved, this is going to be right
18:51
Speaker 10: at about a ten because you're dealing with all of
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Speaker 10: these various facets that we're going to have to examine
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Speaker 10: and be examined in court. We just talked about them
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Speaker 10: outside the context of the courtroom. When you get into this,
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Speaker 10: when you really begin to dig in, there's going to
19:05
Speaker 10: be a tremendous amount of blood evidence, not to mention
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Speaker 10: this DNA evidence that has been at the point of
19:11
Speaker 10: the sphere. With all of this and the electronic evidence,
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Speaker 10: then something that has raised its head along the way
19:18
Speaker 10: is this forensic genealogy that's also come into play. And
19:23
Speaker 10: so the case is complex enough, and you're going to
19:27
Speaker 10: throw this into this mix, and you really, really if
19:31
Speaker 10: you think the jury pool is tainted at this point,
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Speaker 10: my concern is that the continuity of the evidence is
19:39
Speaker 10: going to be bespoiled in this as well, because this
19:42
Speaker 10: narrative is going to be highly complex to be able
19:44
Speaker 10: to lay out to a jury so that they understand it.
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Speaker 2: I have the experience that jurors understand really well exactly,
19:54
Speaker 2: even complex scientific evidence that they've been given. Joe Scott,
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Speaker 2: you've been to me any many crime scenes, as have I.
20:05
Speaker 2: I remember my first mass killing. There were three dead bodies.
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Speaker 2: Blood was literally running down a gutter because one of
20:16
Speaker 2: the young boys that had been shot down on a
20:19
Speaker 2: playground around eleven pm on a Sunday night had made
20:22
Speaker 2: a run for it and he got as far as
20:25
Speaker 2: a chain link fence. He was jumping the fence when
20:28
Speaker 2: he too was shot dead, and he hung on the
20:31
Speaker 2: fence for an extended period of time, bleeding out into
20:35
Speaker 2: the gutter below the fence. By the time I saw it,
20:40
Speaker 2: blood was literally running down the.
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Speaker 1: Gutter, Liz, if I could please see.
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Speaker 2: These victims in life, because that crime scene, Joe Scott,
20:53
Speaker 2: was horrific.
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Speaker 1: That's kind of crime scene that makes.
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Speaker 2: Rookies go out and throw out, throw up out side
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Speaker 2: four incredible, beautiful, vivacious look at them, students, their bodies
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Speaker 2: by that time cold ripped open, going into rigor. The
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Speaker 2: smell of decomp had probably already started. The sticky blood
21:26
Speaker 2: was coagulating on sheets on the floor throughout the home.
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Speaker 2: And that feeling, that heavy feeling in the air where
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Speaker 2: a dead body is a murdered body is what greeted
21:46
Speaker 2: police that Joe Scott Morgan is what we're talking about
21:53
Speaker 2: as the defense does one cartwheel after the next to
21:58
Speaker 2: get the client off.
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Speaker 10: You're absolutely right, Nancy, And you know there's this idea
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Speaker 10: that the blood will tell and and what I meant
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Speaker 10: by that was that the deposition or the depositing of
22:10
Speaker 10: the blood was in within the bedrooms and not to
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Speaker 10: mention anywhere else that we might not have an awareness
22:17
Speaker 10: of at this point in time, that's going to be
22:19
Speaker 10: a complex story to tell. And remember, we're already missing
22:23
Speaker 10: the house. It's gone okay at this point, so we're
22:26
Speaker 10: relying upon how the scene was documented. I'm sure that
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Speaker 10: they'll do a fantastic job presenting it, but we're absent
22:33
Speaker 10: that already. So their blood, those images that we have
22:38
Speaker 10: are going to be very important to tell the tale.
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Speaker 2: Now when we look at these questions the defense has
22:43
Speaker 2: posed on phone calls to four hundred of the jury pool,
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Speaker 2: number nine says, have you read, seen or heard?
22:54
Speaker 1: Brian Coberger had.
22:55
Speaker 2: Followed followed one of the victims on social media. Well
23:01
Speaker 2: that tells me right there, Tara Malik joining me. High
23:04
Speaker 2: profile lawyer at Smith and Malick in Idaho. That tells
23:08
Speaker 2: me that if that evidence does come in that Coburger
23:13
Speaker 2: had been trying to hook up with one of the
23:15
Speaker 2: victims or follow them or stalk them, as it has
23:19
Speaker 2: been stated, they're going to try to argue he just
23:23
Speaker 2: followed one of them innocently, So that tells me where
23:26
Speaker 2: they're going.
23:27
Speaker 6: With that potentially, I mean, I think that they're trying
23:30
Speaker 6: to or they may try and explain away if there
23:34
Speaker 6: is some evidence that Coberger either came in contact or
23:38
Speaker 6: was familiar with these folks and put it, as you mentioned,
23:42
Speaker 6: an innocent.
23:43
Speaker 1: Spin on it.
23:46
Speaker 6: You know, there certainly seems to be, from what we
23:48
Speaker 6: know right now, a lot of evidence to suggest that
23:54
Speaker 6: this was a very calculated crime and that he may
23:58
Speaker 6: have done some recent search ahead of time before it
24:01
Speaker 6: was actually committed, familiarity with the location with perhaps at
24:06
Speaker 6: least one of the individuals. So it certainly gives us
24:09
Speaker 6: some hints as to what the defense maybe trying to
24:12
Speaker 6: do or set up for. Although you know, Anne Taylor
24:15
Speaker 6: did say in court that she did not draft the
24:18
Speaker 6: particular questions, she did approve the topics that were used
24:25
Speaker 6: by the polster in formulating the questions themselves.
24:28
Speaker 2: Tara, did you just say that the defense lawyer ant Taylor,
24:32
Speaker 2: she didn't write the questions, she just approved them.
24:35
Speaker 1: Did I hear that.
24:36
Speaker 6: That's correct from what her statements were or her arguments
24:39
Speaker 6: were in court to judge. Judge, she indicated that she
24:43
Speaker 6: had not actually written the questions that were used in
24:47
Speaker 6: the poll, but that she had approved the topics. She
24:50
Speaker 6: also indicated that the polster was not given any facts
24:57
Speaker 6: from her team or any evidence from her team prior
25:01
Speaker 6: to putting those questions together.
25:03
Speaker 1: I got it, Tara.
25:04
Speaker 2: Yes, I hear your defense of Anne Taylor, and I'm
25:07
Speaker 2: sure she appreciates it. I think that's a line of
25:10
Speaker 2: BS I really do to doctor Leslie Dobson joining US
25:13
Speaker 2: forensic psychologists at doctor Leslie Doobson dot com.
25:17
Speaker 1: You say potato, I say potato. So you can't have
25:21
Speaker 1: it both ways.
25:22
Speaker 2: Although Tara Malok, that's why she went so many cases?
25:25
Speaker 2: Is giving it a valiant try to defend the.
25:28
Speaker 1: Defense attorney here.
25:29
Speaker 2: You can't say the pollsters who actually made these phone
25:34
Speaker 2: calls at the behest of the defense, they knew nothing
25:37
Speaker 2: about the case. You can't say that, and the defense
25:41
Speaker 2: lawyer didn't make up these questions. Okay, somebody directed these questions.
25:47
Speaker 2: And if the Polster knew nothing about the case, then
25:50
Speaker 2: how did they come up.
25:51
Speaker 1: With the questions?
25:52
Speaker 2: Bottom line, the defense approved these questions. It would be
25:58
Speaker 2: a cold eight and hl that they use money for
26:03
Speaker 2: a Polster and they don't approve of the questions. That
26:06
Speaker 2: would be like me sending you doctor Leslie for a
26:10
Speaker 2: polygraph and I don't come up with or help create
26:14
Speaker 2: the questions for the polly. That's not happening.
26:17
Speaker 1: The polygrapher doesn't know what to ask.
26:19
Speaker 2: I could tell him or her what to ask and
26:22
Speaker 2: then they put it in the right format.
26:24
Speaker 1: So you can't have it both ways.
26:26
Speaker 2: Polster had no idea about the case and we didn't
26:29
Speaker 2: write those questions. Bis, how does she even say that
26:32
Speaker 2: in front of the judge? Does she think he's an
26:34
Speaker 2: idiot because he's not.
26:35
Speaker 11: Yes, I read that a social psychologist was hired to
26:39
Speaker 11: put the questions together. So the information was gained through
26:44
Speaker 11: what he claimed was in the media and readily available.
26:47
Speaker 2: Okay, question to you, doctor Leslie Dobson. So the defense
26:51
Speaker 2: hires Upholster to call the locals and ask them questions
26:56
Speaker 2: about the facts. Of the case prior to jury sole
27:00
Speaker 2: as you have heard the questions today, they touch on
27:04
Speaker 2: very significant parts of the case, critical parts of the case.
27:10
Speaker 1: So do you.
27:11
Speaker 2: Really believe the defense didn't know what the questions were
27:15
Speaker 2: going to be after they paid for a poll start.
27:19
Speaker 1: I don't believe it.
27:20
Speaker 6: No.
27:20
Speaker 11: Having worked with many, many attorneys and criminal and civil law,
27:24
Speaker 11: I think the game is on full.
27:26
Speaker 1: Display right now.
27:27
Speaker 2: Following up with Chris McDonough, who has been to the
27:31
Speaker 2: crime scene, has analyzed the crime scene, and has handled
27:36
Speaker 2: well over three hundred homicide investigations.
27:39
Speaker 9: Jump in Chris, you know, and Nancy, I think one
27:41
Speaker 9: of the things that you've pointed out here is you
27:45
Speaker 9: know there are four hundred potential witnesses. Remember the defense
27:49
Speaker 9: clicked out in one of their emotions, Well, how would
27:52
Speaker 9: they know there are four hundred potential witnesses when, of
27:55
Speaker 9: course you've got now four hundred people that have been
27:58
Speaker 9: polled in the community. I think that's an interesting correlation
28:02
Speaker 9: that would need some clarity, and I'm concerned that the
28:06
Speaker 9: prosecution kind of fell for it by actually reading those
28:11
Speaker 9: questions in open court, and why the judge didn't pull
28:14
Speaker 9: them into work, you know, into in camera hearing to
28:17
Speaker 9: where the public. Now everybody knows about these nine questions.
28:21
Speaker 2: Around the world, right, Well, are you seriously trying to
28:24
Speaker 2: say with a straight face, Chris mcdonna, that anybody watching
28:27
Speaker 2: this coverage hasn't already heard about the Coburger case.
28:32
Speaker 9: No, not at all. In fact, what I'm saying is
28:36
Speaker 9: these nine questions, which are being argued, you know, by
28:40
Speaker 9: both the prosecution and the defense, are now known to everybody.
28:44
Speaker 5: That's what I'm saying.
28:45
Speaker 9: And that in of itself, you know, kind of goes
28:48
Speaker 9: against the purpose of the hearing.
28:51
Speaker 2: So the defense is sticking to the rigorous guidelines of
28:56
Speaker 2: the law and deadlines and limitations when it suits them.
29:01
Speaker 2: But now are caught red handed poisoning the jury pool
29:07
Speaker 2: and a small jurisdiction.
29:08
Speaker 1: You bring in four hundred people.
29:10
Speaker 2: And they've all been quizzed already about the case by
29:14
Speaker 2: the defense. Polster guarantee you that is going to be
29:19
Speaker 2: cause for a change a venue.
29:21
Speaker 1: Why Why is that significant? Tara Malick?
29:25
Speaker 2: It's significant because when you change a venue, it's much
29:29
Speaker 2: harder on the state it is.
29:31
Speaker 6: I mean, we're talking about moving witnesses to maybe local
29:36
Speaker 6: to that community, to a different location, to testify, maybe
29:41
Speaker 6: even for multiple days. So it does put the burden
29:44
Speaker 6: on the state, puts on the burden on the defense
29:46
Speaker 6: as well, but they don't have to put on a
29:48
Speaker 6: defense they don't have if they don't want to, and
29:50
Speaker 6: they certainly don't have to.
29:51
Speaker 1: Put on witnesses if they don't want to.
29:53
Speaker 6: The burden is entirely on the state. Now, this defense
29:57
Speaker 6: has taken a step of saying that we do have
29:59
Speaker 6: an alibi, which puts the burden on them to come
30:02
Speaker 6: up with that alibi. But yeah, it is going to
30:06
Speaker 6: add some complications here that that didn't already exist. Yeah,
30:10
Speaker 6: and I would note too, you know, for the change
30:13
Speaker 6: of venue, it's just pre trial publicity alone is not
30:18
Speaker 6: enough to change venue in a particular case like that's
30:22
Speaker 6: certainly not enough.
30:37
Speaker 2: To Shawn and driscoll joining us for Newsweek, Sean talking
30:40
Speaker 2: about an alibi, and the defense of course has not
30:45
Speaker 2: handed over the alibi.
30:46
Speaker 6: Yet.
30:46
Speaker 2: They've got to hand over an alibi because a state
30:50
Speaker 2: has a right to question witnesses or evidence that support
30:54
Speaker 2: that alibi, be it surveillance video, be it the nav
30:57
Speaker 2: system in Cyberger's launch. The state has a right to
31:02
Speaker 2: question that alibi. Did you hear what was said that
31:07
Speaker 2: they may bring on corroboration for the alibi that he
31:12
Speaker 2: is driving around at three o'clock, four o'clock, five o'clock
31:17
Speaker 2: in the morning. And hey, Sean, while I've got you,
31:21
Speaker 2: this is a real clue as to where they're headed.
31:25
Speaker 2: With these nine questions they sent to all the too
31:28
Speaker 2: potential jurrs about the car. They asked specifically whether the
31:36
Speaker 2: potential jurr has found out or heard about the type
31:41
Speaker 2: same type of car seen in the neighborhood where the
31:45
Speaker 2: murders occurred. So they're basically tipping us off that the
31:49
Speaker 2: defense is going to be, yeah, there was a white Lantra,
31:52
Speaker 2: but it wasn't him.
31:53
Speaker 8: Right.
31:54
Speaker 5: In fact, part and the prosecution case in their own
31:57
Speaker 5: documentative filing court is that they have an FBI expert
32:01
Speaker 5: who's not only an expert on models of cars, but
32:04
Speaker 5: even regional variations within those models of cars, who then
32:08
Speaker 5: linked this type of car somewhere between twenty eleven twenty fourteen,
32:13
Speaker 5: then expanded that range slightly by looking at the CCTV
32:16
Speaker 5: of slightly slight parts of the car. So I think
32:21
Speaker 5: what the defense they're really trying to say is, yeah, okay,
32:24
Speaker 5: you've got us his car was around, you have it
32:26
Speaker 5: on CCTV, that type of model of car. But his
32:32
Speaker 5: hobby is to drive around in the middle of the
32:34
Speaker 5: night in this particular car, which is actually common purpose
32:39
Speaker 5: between defense and prosecution in this case.
32:42
Speaker 2: Okay, hold on, Seana Drisco, Crime and Courts correspondent at Knewswick,
32:46
Speaker 2: let me ask you a quick question regarding that. Can
32:49
Speaker 2: you have it both ways? Can you claim as they
32:53
Speaker 2: apparently are going to do, as evidenced by this question,
32:57
Speaker 2: have you heard the same type of car was spotted
33:01
Speaker 2: in the area, clearly tipping me off that they're gonna argue, Yeah,
33:05
Speaker 2: there was a white Lantra, but it wasn't his.
33:09
Speaker 1: Do you have the license plate?
33:11
Speaker 2: No, In fact, it could be an entirely different year,
33:15
Speaker 2: make or model. Okay, they're going to argue it wasn't
33:18
Speaker 2: his car, But is that consistent with the alibi?
33:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was out driving around.
33:24
Speaker 2: At three or four o'clock that night in the morning,
33:28
Speaker 2: So is it him driving by there by the murder
33:31
Speaker 2: scene or is it not his car?
33:34
Speaker 1: To me, that's inconsistent.
33:36
Speaker 2: But I see them bit by bit Sean trying to
33:40
Speaker 2: dismantle the state's case That's what this is to them.
33:44
Speaker 1: They're taking each.
33:46
Speaker 2: Piece of strong evidence and trying to dismantle it piece
33:49
Speaker 2: of evidence. His car was spotted at the scene Hello,
33:52
Speaker 2: at three o'clock in the morning, and then he went
33:53
Speaker 2: back by later that day. They're going to claim that
33:58
Speaker 2: looked like his car, but it wasn't his car.
34:01
Speaker 1: And by the way, he often drives.
34:03
Speaker 2: Around late at night all along, which screams to me,
34:07
Speaker 2: freaky dad, Right, I.
34:08
Speaker 5: Mean, you have to really wonder. You have to take
34:11
Speaker 5: Durrs as normal people like all of us who are wondering, okay,
34:13
Speaker 5: where was he? Well, he was driving around in the
34:15
Speaker 5: same type of model of car that night. And also
34:20
Speaker 5: how does this then play into jury selection? If the jury,
34:23
Speaker 5: if the jurors are now four hundred of them are
34:26
Speaker 5: have been told all of this, what does what does
34:29
Speaker 5: the defense now know about those four hundred people that
34:32
Speaker 5: hasn't been disclosed yet. You know what have they written
34:36
Speaker 5: down their names? Did they know their addresses? When they're
34:38
Speaker 5: when it comes to jury selection, that they now know
34:40
Speaker 5: what all of those juror potential jurors now know about
34:43
Speaker 5: this model of car, about what they know about the
34:45
Speaker 5: DNA evidence and all sorts of.
34:47
Speaker 2: Information to you just got morgand death investigator. You've been
34:51
Speaker 2: on so many thousands of homicide and death sayings.
34:58
Speaker 1: The longer e way to go to trial, and I've
35:02
Speaker 1: been there.
35:03
Speaker 2: One of the first cases I had to try, not
35:05
Speaker 2: the first, but one of the first, was to retry
35:07
Speaker 2: a case that had been tried when I was back
35:09
Speaker 2: in law school. And I've told you this, Joe Scott.
35:12
Speaker 2: When I went into the evidence room to get the evidence,
35:16
Speaker 2: there was one X ray I didn't even know what
35:18
Speaker 2: it was or who it went to, what it had
35:21
Speaker 2: to do with the case, and a baseball cat that said,
35:24
Speaker 2: kiss my bass. That was all the evidence we could
35:27
Speaker 2: find from the first trial. I'm serious, And I had
35:31
Speaker 2: to cobble together a case. As time goes on, memories dim,
35:35
Speaker 2: you lose evidence, witnesses actually die, they had died in
35:39
Speaker 2: those fourteen years before I had to retry that case.
35:42
Speaker 1: So that's the problem with the delay.
35:46
Speaker 2: But what about what it does to the victims' families?
35:49
Speaker 1: Every day no justice.
35:51
Speaker 10: It grinds on and on and on. And I still
35:54
Speaker 10: have a vivid memory of hearing this we had gotten
35:57
Speaker 10: back from church and that particular and when this case dropped.
36:01
Speaker 10: And now even to this point, as much as I've
36:03
Speaker 10: covered this case with you, Nancy, some of the details
36:06
Speaker 10: are beginning to fade for me. How much more so
36:09
Speaker 10: because you know we do this regularly, but you know
36:12
Speaker 10: all of the principles. And here's here's one other interesting
36:16
Speaker 10: little aside here. This is a university environment, Nancy, And
36:20
Speaker 10: we all know what happens at university environment. In university environments,
36:25
Speaker 10: people move on with their lives. And what I mean
36:28
Speaker 10: by that is you have kids that may have been
36:30
Speaker 10: witnesses at that particular time, their life has gone on.
36:34
Speaker 10: As a matter of fact, many of them may have graduated.
36:36
Speaker 10: They're going to have to be coming back to this environment.
36:39
Speaker 10: The landscape has changed. We no longer have a home
36:42
Speaker 10: to recall what happened that particular night. So everything is
36:47
Speaker 10: going to rest upon what is contained within that evidence
36:51
Speaker 10: room that you peripherally mentioned just a second ago. And
36:54
Speaker 10: you know that I can tell you hasn't forgotten the
36:57
Speaker 10: people that walked into that structure and they saw that
37:00
Speaker 10: blood bath, and they saw what had happened, and it's
37:03
Speaker 10: just as real to them right now as it was
37:05
Speaker 10: that day.
37:06
Speaker 2: We wait as justice enfolds, and now we stop to
37:11
Speaker 2: remember American Hero Sergeant Mark McIntyre.
37:15
Speaker 1: Just fifty five.
37:16
Speaker 2: McIntyre shot and killed in the line of duty. Griffin Georgia,
37:23
Speaker 2: a proud Vet of the US Army, dedicated member of
37:26
Speaker 2: the community, leaving behind daughter kimber Son Parker Fonce Karen
37:34
Speaker 2: and her sons American Hero Sergeant Mark McIntyre. Nancy Gray
37:42
Speaker 2: signing off goodbye friend.