Latest / AI for Founders with Ryan Estes / The Asset Class Quietly Making Millionaires

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The Asset Class Quietly Making Millionaires · AI for Founders with Ryan Estes

0:00
What if the safest investment right now is the one that
0:02
everyone's ignoring? And what if the assets people
0:04
laugh at today quietly outperform everything tomorrow?
0:08
Founders are chasing speed, markets are rewarding hype, and
0:12
entire companies are getting erased overnight.
0:15
One model update and your mode disappears.
0:17
But if there's a different game being played, a game where
0:20
demand is guaranteed or supply is artificially constrained, and
0:24
where the winners aren't the loudest, they're the most
0:26
durable. Mobile home parks.
0:28
Yeah, not sexy. But here's the thing.
0:30
Everyone says we need affordable housing.
0:32
No one wants it built near them. So supply goes down, demand goes
0:36
up. And the people who understand
0:38
that imbalance, They win quietly.
0:40
Now add AI. Instead of guessing on deals,
0:43
you deploy AI to instantly kill bad opportunities.
0:46
Flag hidden risks and surface a few assets that actually matter.
0:50
Not to chase 100X but to never get wiped out because in this
0:53
cycle survival is alpha. So here's the real question.
0:57
Are you building something that depends on attention or
1:00
something that compounds without it?
1:02
Welcome to AI for founders. I'm Ryan Estes.
1:05
This is for founders and investors who want to use AI to
1:08
make smarter bets, build real wealth and stop playing fragile
1:11
games. If you want to think clearer
1:13
than your competitors, if you want distribution and insight in
1:16
one place, if you want to build an audience that actually
1:19
converts, go subscribe to our newsletter at AI for
1:22
founders.co. And if this hits a nerve, leave
1:25
a review for the podcast that's more honest than your last board
1:28
meeting. Today's guest is Nathan
1:30
Jamieson, and you'll learn how AI is transforming real estate
1:34
investing, why boring assets are becoming a lead place, and how
1:38
to build wealth that doesn't disappear when the market
1:40
shifts. And real quick, if you want to
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get booked on the right podcast, not just any podcast, Kick
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caster.com is the agency's founders trust.
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They connect you with shows that drive real business outcomes.
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Go to kickcaster.com. That's kick Caster by MO Burst.
2:03
Nathan, good morning. Thank you so much for joining me
2:06
on the show. Good morning, Ryan.
2:08
Great to be here. Thanks for having me.
2:09
Absolutely. I'm really excited to talk to
2:11
you largely, and we're going to talk a little bit about AI.
2:14
But you know, a lot of the folks I think listening to this show
2:17
invest in AI companies largely as kind of like, well, it's
2:22
their profession, honestly, but you work in real estate and have
2:26
a family office that invests in in various real estate
2:29
properties. So I think it'll be fun to kind
2:31
of have a conversation on what might be seen as like an anti AI
2:35
asset. Not that it's against it, but
2:37
it's it's something real in the world, which might be a good way
2:40
for people to kind of hedge some of their investments and think
2:42
about, you know, growing wealth in different ways.
2:44
So welcome to the show. Give us kind of an overview of
2:47
your firm, which is arcsventures.com.
2:53
Yeah, arcsventures.com, Arcs Ventures are the DBA for our our
2:57
investment company Arcs Capital. Arcs very simply is Latin for
3:01
Fortress. I wanted to name the company
3:04
Fortress Capital, but for your investors, they may know that
3:07
Fortress capital was taken. So I chose a derivation of that,
3:11
which is the Latin word for fortress.
3:14
And I started ARCS in 2016 after spending most of my career in
3:19
land development at home building in in the East.
3:23
I'm coming to you from outside Philadelphia and have spent most
3:27
of my professional life in the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic.
3:31
And today ARCS Capital is investing in what I'll call a
3:35
recession resistant assets where there's a significant tax
3:39
advantages to doing so. And those tend to be real
3:42
estate. When I talk about recession
3:44
resistant assets, that means, you know, we're not looking to
3:47
hit like 10X20X30X. You know, we're looking for kind
3:52
of mid teens IRRS over the life of an investment, which
3:56
generally yields kind of like a high 1, low 2X cut a multiple.
4:02
And that's without accounting for the tax advantages of being
4:05
able to offset either your investment returns or other
4:09
returns and other investments through depreciation losses in
4:13
our mobile home parks, RV parks and and self storage
4:17
acquisitions. Amazing.
4:18
So, and I'd love to hear kind of like the, the temperature of
4:21
real estate right now. Now I, I'm in the bubble of all
4:24
bubbles, you know, Denver, Co, which if you want, you know, A2
4:29
bed, 1 bath, little bungalows, 100 years old, $1.1 million, you
4:34
know, and there's a lot of belly aching, at least in Denver that
4:36
people are getting priced out. So maybe we're starting to see a
4:39
dip in the market. But you know, your career has
4:42
really been in the absolute glory age of real estate
4:46
investing. So talk about the temperature
4:48
right now and how that compares to like the market over the last
4:51
decade. Sure well, and you know, I can
4:54
go further back than that. I was actually looking to invest
4:57
in Denver in 2007, 2000, you know, early O 8 and you know, in
5:03
my early career had a front seat to the Great Recession and what
5:06
was happening. And I, you know, what's
5:09
interesting is, you know, we've had a lot of success in our
5:11
investment funds over the last almost 10 years.
5:15
And as a result, I'll interact with kind of the large
5:19
institutional capital on Wall Street, whether it's Blackstone
5:22
or Brookfield or Bain, and then some of the smaller, you know,
5:26
kind of mid tier guys. And for a while, I mean, even as
5:30
recent as a couple years ago, you know, folks didn't want to
5:33
talk to someone who was investing in say, the Northeast
5:37
and their focus was we want to go to the smile states, right?
5:41
You know, the curl from the Carolinas down through Florida
5:44
and Texas and back up into the the Southwest.
5:47
That's the smile. Well, you know, the problem, and
5:50
this was always my feeling and I experienced this in home
5:53
building is, you know, it's a supply demand imbalance.
5:56
I specifically kept my firm away from those states because
5:59
frankly, it's just too easy to get the right to build.
6:02
Now over our lifetime, it will become harder as those states
6:05
become inundated. I just am back from Texas and,
6:08
you know, the building double Decker highways everywhere you
6:11
you can see. And the amount of traffic
6:13
yesterday 4:30 in the morning between San Antonio and Austin
6:16
was unbelievable. That said, in the Northeast
6:20
where we still have, you know, significant percentage of the
6:23
United States population, it's next to impossible to get the
6:26
right to build another housing unit.
6:28
And as a result, that supply demand imbalance has kept
6:32
housing values high and has been really enabled us, I think to
6:35
create, I'll say, asymmetric returns to other investment
6:40
opportunities, which is really what we're looking for is we
6:43
like real estate because of the lack of kind of publicly traded
6:45
information where we can create, I think a distinctive advantage
6:49
for our investment. So you're looking for places
6:51
that it's harder to get the right to build because there's
6:54
less competition? That's absolutely right.
6:57
Amazing. And you're doing new home builds
6:59
as opposed to like flips and things like that and or multi
7:02
family units. So, yeah, so I spent a lot, a
7:06
lot of my career building 55 and over communities and, you know,
7:11
sold a billion dollars worth of real estate and exclusively 55
7:15
and over communities. And that was ground up.
7:17
That was finding the farm, getting it approved to build
7:20
homes, on developing the land, building the homes, selling the
7:24
homes, warranting the homes and so on.
7:26
But over the last 10 years, we've really been more focused,
7:29
I would say on acquiring existing properties.
7:33
And those properties are largely almost exclusively mobile home
7:36
parks, which is, I mean, frankly, I, I love it because
7:41
it's an asset class that it, I'll say is disfavored by so
7:48
many. So I was, I was on a
7:49
conversation with, with somebody else recently where you think
7:53
about what in an economy, a functioning economy, when an
7:57
asset is in demand, if the market finds a way to produce
8:00
more of that asset. And yet I'm in manufactured
8:03
housing where the asset demand is through the roof because it's
8:06
affordable. I mean, someone can buy a home
8:09
for 75 to $150,000 and have a monthly lot rent payment and
8:14
utilities, you know, of 500 to $1000 in markets where the
8:19
single family home costs, you know, half $1,000,000.
8:23
And yet we're producing effectively no new manufactured
8:27
housing product or communities nationwide, particularly in the
8:30
Northeast. I mean, the number is 0.
8:32
And so we have increasing demand and we actually have decreasing
8:35
supply, which is a market that's not functioning.
8:38
But it's largely due to the fact that everyone wants affordable
8:40
housing. They just don't want it near
8:41
them. So if no one wants it near them,
8:43
guess where it gets built? It doesn't get built.
8:48
I know all about that. I'm in the NIMBY capital of the
8:51
world, Boulder, Co, you know. Yes, sure.
8:56
So I spent the first part of my career, Ryan, you'll, you'll
8:58
like this and you can use it. We were in Greensboro, NC and we
9:02
were trying to reinvigorate the downtown and we brought in
9:05
Cooper Terry, a firm out of Atlanta, really nationally
9:08
reputable firm, architecture and master planning.
9:11
And they had a different word for the NIMBY's.
9:13
They called them CAVE People then.
9:16
CAVE is an acronym for Citizens Against Virtually Everything.
9:23
Oh my gosh, with a canvas bag and some Tiva sandals on.
9:29
Unfortunately, the United States has become kind of a, a nation
9:32
of cave people, or at least run by The Cave people, right?
9:34
Like if you go to a, you know, a municipal meeting, you know,
9:37
most people are in favor of what's happening there, but
9:40
they're not showing up because they're coaching Little League
9:43
or they're working or they're, you know, at home with their
9:45
kids. But the, you know, The Cave
9:47
people are the ones who show up and scream with the lattice
9:49
voice. Virtual or, or it's a
9:52
recreational outrage, you know, and in it is kind of like
9:56
irritating. And, you know, I don't get in
9:58
too deep into politics, but everybody is kind of backed into
10:01
their own corner and everything becomes politicized in some way,
10:04
which is, you know, as a sportsman in Colorado, they
10:06
released the wolves and that became a big partisan issue as
10:09
opposed to like a, a rational common sense conversation about
10:13
ecology. You, you know, people aren't
10:15
trusting experts because their their guy said XYZ on both
10:19
sides. It is kind of irritating.
10:21
You know, do you run into that? Is that kind of the the reason
10:23
why in the Northeast or maybe California, why there's so
10:27
little building going on? Because just the the bureaucracy
10:29
around it is almost like stifling?
10:33
It's absolutely bureaucracy. And, you know, on one hand,
10:36
you'll have, you know, middle age and later age folks who are
10:40
complaining about the cost of housing and that their children
10:43
or grandchildren can't afford to live where they have a home.
10:46
And yet they're the same folks who will show up and oppose a
10:50
developer's proposed project. So, you know, it's, it's like,
10:55
you know, we stopped teaching basic economics, I don't know,
10:58
30 years ago. And when we stop teaching it,
11:01
you know, people don't understand the, the consequences
11:03
of their decisions, particularly unintended consequences.
11:07
You know, it used to be you could own a farm and that farm
11:10
was kind of your retirement plan because you're going to sell it
11:12
for development down the road. And my grandfather and my father
11:16
grew up outside of Madison, WI. Well, Madison's a pretty, you
11:18
know, liberal bastion of the university sector in Wisconsin.
11:23
And So what happened was, you know, my grandfather had a 50
11:27
acre farm that he could have built a number of homes on.
11:30
Well, they, this professors in Madison moved, moved out and got
11:34
on the boards of these, you know, suburban rural locations
11:38
and they down zoned property so that you have many, you have
11:41
many homes you could build on 50 acres.
11:42
That's the new zoning that they implemented. 1 One new home on
11:49
50 acres. Is that due to a like a, a
11:51
romantic ideal? Are they really worried about
11:53
the black glove ferret? You know, and they're they're
11:55
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Now back to the show. It could have been a bat.
12:56
It could have been, we had a, a, a snail darter.
13:00
But no, I think, I think there's a, you know, it's a kind of a
13:02
combination of all that, right? Like there's a romantic
13:05
romanticizing of, of the rural areas.
13:09
Maybe there's a legitimate concern about sprawl, you know,
13:13
but you know, effectively it's a taking that was uncompensated,
13:17
right? Like you get your property down
13:18
zoned and the government's taking it and they haven't paid
13:21
you. Yeah, you know, and I tease The
13:24
Cave people and I, I honestly think that people are trying to
13:27
do what's in the best for everybody.
13:29
And it's just the pendulum seems to swing too far, you know,
13:32
every direction, you know, So it's like, yeah, I want to make
13:35
sure that the ecology is intact of our environment.
13:38
I want to make sure that like we're we're building responsibly
13:41
and like the if there's artifacts found, there's all
13:44
these different things that and safeguards put in place.
13:47
But on the other side, you are starting to look at a demand
13:49
issue where like, people aren't being able to realize the
13:52
American dream. And so if if I'm to make a
13:55
decision, I'm going to be on Team Human forever.
13:58
And I like to look at examples of like where it's been done
14:01
well. And in fact, I kind of put my
14:02
money where my mouth is last year because I lived in Sloan's
14:06
Lake, Denver, you know, Northside Denver for pretty much
14:09
my whole Dang life. And we recently moved kind of to
14:12
the sticks to a development called Sterling Ranch.
14:16
And what's really cool is they kind of have have learned it's,
14:19
you know, they're, they're looking to build, I think
14:22
probably like 13,000 homes. They've probably built about
14:24
1300 so far, but they're they're doing a lot of things right,
14:28
which is like using big greenbelts because there's a
14:31
herd of like 300 head elk out here and they want to make sure
14:34
it has migratory patterns. And so they're they're building
14:38
in a way that's constructive. So, you know, there it's this
14:41
amazing community that's completely engineered from the
14:43
ground up, but also taking the consideration skylines and views
14:47
and taking into consideration water rights.
14:49
You know, we were also looking at a place over by by Morrison
14:53
and Red Rocks, but they didn't have a meter yet, You know,
14:57
they're they didn't have water. So, you know, we ended up
15:00
choosing this place because they had spent, you know, a half a
15:03
billion dollars digging their own well.
15:05
So it's supported with its own water, which this year becomes a
15:09
massive issue because, you know, Denver is bone dry.
15:13
And we'll kind of see how that plays out.
15:14
You know, have you seen good examples of like, let's just
15:18
call it ethical building, mindful stewardship of the
15:22
earth, these kind of things where you can kind of point and
15:24
be like, hey, guys, if we can just have a civil conversation,
15:27
we can do things like this. Yeah, I, I think those are
15:31
really important conversations and I'm, I'm fully behind those.
15:34
I think about like, you know, on the, on the hunting side, this
15:36
guy like Steve Rinella, you know, and conservationists
15:39
where, you know, you'd have some people on the far left who would
15:42
say, well, you know, you can never cut down a tree.
15:45
You can never harvest an animal. And then you have the people I
15:48
think who really understand how these systems work together
15:52
that, you know, if you don't, if you don't cut down trees and do,
15:55
you know, fire mitigation, guess what?
15:57
You know, guess what, you end up with like every scene in
15:59
California we've seen in Colorado at times.
16:02
And the same thing with with, you know, with the the
16:06
ecosystems and the overpopulation of certain
16:09
certain animals in real estate. I mean, let's let's be honest, I
16:15
think we haven't always had the best actors, right?
16:17
I think there is, there's legitimate concern that I don't
16:22
want to poo poo that, you know, some, some developer says, well,
16:24
just give me one more unit or give me two, one more unit per
16:27
acre, five more units per acre. Then I'll be able to get, you
16:31
know, I'll make the numbers work or I'll, I'll make a, you know,
16:34
a boatload of money. I think what's really lost in
16:37
the conversation is, you know, somehow in kind of the planning
16:41
era, I don't know, last 50 years we became about the single
16:46
family home. We we became about the half acre
16:48
lot. And, you know, it's my
16:50
perspective that, you know, if you want to preserve open
16:53
spaces, which I absolutely do, and particularly and protect,
16:57
you know, areas outside of the urban core, even suburban core,
17:02
you've got to make a commitment to build as densely as you
17:05
possibly can where you're going to build.
17:09
I, I like to say, you know, in 1/2 acre lot, A1 acre lot, you,
17:11
you know, that's not open space, that's somebody's private
17:14
property. If you want to create more open
17:17
space, you aggregate it by allowing to, you know, people to
17:20
build it, you know, 4 to 10 homes per acre, whether that's,
17:23
you know, a single story home or whether you start to stack
17:27
things in apartments or other structures to maximize density.
17:30
And you aggregate open space. And you say what we're going to
17:33
create that pocket park in the center of this development that
17:36
is preserved and cared for by its residents or by the
17:39
community. And you get ensure that you
17:41
don't get kind of this urban sprawl or suburban sprawl.
17:44
If you go to Europe, right? And you, you leave, you know,
17:46
Paris, you get outside the the urban core and it's just fields
17:51
everywhere because they, you know, many centuries ago, right,
17:55
they decided they weren't going to run Public Utilities out out
17:59
there. You know, I think we're pioneers
18:01
by nature. It's in the American culture,
18:03
you know, go West, young man. And so it go West with a sewer
18:06
line ensures that you keep building.
18:10
Totally. Yeah, Well, and, and we've
18:11
learned, you know, 'cause the other thing that's interesting
18:13
about Paris is there's like one blade of grass in the entire
18:16
city, you know, So, you know, kind of what people want is
18:20
starting to get fleshed out. And I, I love this idea of, you
18:22
know, of density, you know, as we kind of move out because on
18:27
one side everybody has this romantic image of like a picket
18:30
fence and no neighbors. But then they want the amenities
18:33
and the Starbucks and they want all this.
18:35
So there's a bit of a sacrifice. But kind of what I'm noticing
18:38
kind of out here is like, you know, proximity to neighbors is
18:41
one thing, but like they provide a balcony, so you have access to
18:45
outdoor space. They have a Commons park.
18:47
And then of course, we have the National Park, which is just
18:50
like, I live right by Roxboro. So there's all these
18:52
opportunities to get outside, which seems rational and
18:55
reasonable, you know, so there's there's like this kind of edge
18:58
that everybody plays with. And then of course, there's the
19:00
people beating the drums that we need to privatize the state
19:02
national parks to start building in there.
19:04
It's like, wait, let's, let's not go crazy, you know, but, and
19:08
I'm glad you brought up Steve Rinella, because if people
19:10
haven't watched Meat Eater, which is his show, it's a really
19:14
intelligent take on environmentalism and ecology
19:19
because largely he, he works with the scientists and he cooks
19:22
food, which is a great part. But he, he relies on the, the,
19:27
the scientists in, in the, in maybe in kind of like stark
19:32
contrast to the Disney of fication of nature that a lot of
19:35
us have grown up in cities where, you know, we do need to
19:39
manage the earth at this point, you know, in, in order to, for
19:43
it to sustain. And I just, I, I bring him up
19:46
only because he is not a partisan person.
19:49
I don't think he has very clear politics on either side.
19:51
He's kind of a centrist and comes from a very rational
19:53
place, which I just think is important when we're starting to
19:56
think about the growth and development of our cities
19:58
because housing is such a big issue, you know, and.
20:02
Yeah, and since it's an AI podcast, right, I mean, you
20:04
know, I think in tying to this housing issue, you know, I, I
20:08
think something we're completely unprepared for in these
20:12
municipalities and bureaucracies is a shift toward automated
20:16
driving and self driving cars. You know, like one of the
20:20
biggest inhibitors to development is the parking
20:23
requirement, right? Like, oh, you know, zoning codes
20:25
have just been written ad nauseam.
20:27
So, oh, you build a dwelling unit, you need 2 parking spaces.
20:30
Well, what if, what are we going to do when people don't own a
20:32
car and they just, they Uber because the cost of Ubering is
20:35
so much less than the cost of ownership.
20:37
Or as you know, I've got a friend in Santa Monica, he's got
20:40
his Tesla and Tesla's enabling you to just, you know, it can
20:44
drop you off at your apartment and then you can send it out to
20:46
Uber autonomously. And so it doesn't need a parking
20:49
space. And you know, our planning is so
20:52
far behind thinking through those things and, and, and, and
20:56
I'm not actually not taking a position, whether that's good or
20:58
bad, but I am taking a position that it is going to happen and
21:02
we're not prepared for all the ramifications.
21:04
Yeah, that's really interesting. And I mean that's like tomorrow
21:07
really like that's coming so soon.
21:10
I mean, I'm in a position now where I got a couple cars that
21:12
are up from lease. I was thinking, you know, I, I
21:15
mentioned I'm a pick up guy, but about a year ago I traded in my
21:19
F-150 and got an Aria because it was like $100 for a lease.
21:24
Like the incentives for these electric cars were insane.
21:27
And I was like, you know, my yoga bag will fit in this Aria,
21:33
you know what I'm saying? Like heavy haul.
21:36
I mean, 550 horsepower is amazing, but like going to yoga
21:39
class, who cares? So, you know, so I'm thinking
21:42
about that now because, yeah, you have the, the Waymos.
21:44
And then of course, Uber is about to come online with the
21:48
the Tesla's that'll be totally self driving.
21:50
And it kind of changes the paradigm of your lifestyle being
21:53
a Colorado guy. It's like, OK, could I go from
21:55
three cars to 1 car? And that car is just my
21:58
funmobile. That's, you know, a 1996 4runner
22:01
that I want to trick out and like put monster truck tires on
22:04
on it, you know, and, and then that will shape kind of like,
22:09
well, I mean, it's again, it's America.
22:11
You got to have A2 car garage, right?
22:12
Do you anymore? You know?
22:15
Well, you don't. And I I think like here's like a
22:17
really crystallized example. So one of our other businesses
22:21
is entitling land and selling it, either developing it to for
22:26
apartment or or single family builders or developing it
22:29
ourselves. We we've got a property in
22:32
Central PA, the capital of of Pennsylvania, Harrisburg and
22:37
it's known for apartments. So you'd say, Oh, well, the
22:38
municipality wants to have apartments built here, which is
22:42
pretty rare, frankly. You know, apartments fall into
22:44
that, that cave people classification where very few
22:47
people want it. So we get, you know, we get kind
22:50
of an approval to build apartments, but we need a
22:52
reduction in the parking requirement to maximize density.
22:56
So the zoning says 2 parking spaces per dwelling unit, even
22:59
if it's a 650, you know, square foot studio, you need 2 parking
23:03
spaces. So we did a survey of the all
23:06
the apartment communities in the region and found that the
23:08
average park parking in these communities was about 1.41.45.
23:13
So we went to the zoning hearing board and we said, hey, let's be
23:16
reasonable. If you give us 1.6 instead of 2,
23:19
which is more than everybody else but less than what's
23:22
required, you know, we'll be able to have a few more units
23:25
here, be able to provide more housing in the municipality.
23:27
Well, goodness sakes, the zoning hearing board said we agree with
23:30
you and they approved it unanimously.
23:33
The next week, again, these political bodies, the, the, the
23:36
supervisors who were the, you know, elected officials, they
23:41
filed A lawsuit as a Township to sue themselves, their zoning
23:46
hearing board to keep us from getting the right to have 1.6
23:50
parking spaces. And so we're in court now,
23:52
spending 10s of thousands of dollars to to to try to
23:57
intervene where municipality is suing itself to keep us from
24:00
building more homes. Walk me through the rationality
24:03
of that. What what happened did did they
24:05
get an angry letter or? You know, I would just say in
24:10
Pennsylvania we have a lot of like little fiefdom, right?
24:13
Like, so I grew up in the South. I grew up in North Carolina and
24:17
I think Virginia, Maryland. In North Carolina, states I'm
24:22
pretty familiar with are tend to be governed by counties.
24:25
I don't know how it is in Colorado, but the county is the
24:28
kind of primary planning authority and you're getting
24:32
approval from the counties. Maybe the city in the county,
24:35
you know, would be kind of the two the two bodies in
24:37
Pennsylvania, you know, we've got literally hundreds of small
24:43
municipalities, boroughs, townships.
24:46
And then we have of course, have have cities, but the it's the
24:48
borough and the Township drive decisions.
24:51
And these folks are they're governing, let's call it, you
24:55
know, 20 square miles, if that in some cases, right.
24:59
And so they're generally are not motivated politically to think
25:02
beyond their small border. And as a result, we get kind of
25:06
very hodgepodge development that isn't well thought about.
25:11
Whereas I do think at the county level, I mean, you could argue,
25:13
well, that's maybe a bigger bureaucracy and so on.
25:16
I do think they're planning tends to think about, well,
25:18
we're going to build this road here and what's the impact?
25:21
And you know, if we have this zone where you can build X, roll
25:24
into this zone where you can build Y, those play together.
25:28
You know, we don't. We don't really generally think
25:30
about those things in Pennsylvania.
25:32
Unfortunately, the county, while it exists as an authority, is a
25:35
paper tiger. Interesting.
25:37
It seems like a lot of what you butt up against are these kind
25:39
of like tribal affiliations. Do do you find yourself focusing
25:44
on like branding and marketing? I mean, on one side you could
25:47
say like, hey, this is a mobile home development we're looking
25:49
to do and there might be people that are vocally against it.
25:52
But if you're like, hey, this is Hashtag Van Life Cafe, then
25:56
they'll be like, wow, that sounds cool.
26:00
Yeah, I think we have had success over time, you know,
26:05
marketing what we've done somewhere else, right.
26:08
So you can you can step in front of municipality and say, hey,
26:11
here's what we did. You know, in a neighboring
26:12
municipality there becomes kind of a proof of concept.
26:17
It does not necessarily get you past that, you know, that one
26:21
political representative who just doesn't want anything
26:24
built. And then the other challenge is,
26:28
boy, I'm, I'm, I'm off, you know, kind of on a tangent here,
26:31
Ryan, but you're giving me a soapbox.
26:33
You know, there are municipalities who will just
26:35
flat out choose to ignore the law.
26:39
So the law says, hey, if you, if you create a plan that meets the
26:45
zoning and the subdivision law, then you're allowed to build it.
26:49
Well, there are municipalities who will just deny it.
26:51
And, and, and in denying it, they know ultimately, like
26:54
they're, they're wrong, but they're basically playing a game
26:58
of chicken to force you to spend money, to sue them, to force
27:02
them to follow the law and hoping that either you don't
27:06
have deep enough pockets or that the economics won't support you
27:09
spending legal dollars. Because, and I don't know if
27:12
this exists in other states, but in Pennsylvania, municipalities
27:16
are immune from paying, you know, legal penalties for, you
27:20
know, there's no damages if they, if they delay my project 2
27:23
years and cost me $300,000 in legal fees to make them fall the
27:27
law. You know, I've got to work that
27:29
into my numbers. They don't have to pay it.
27:32
I mean, there's just such over legislation in the in the entire
27:37
country right now. It's it's got to be incredibly
27:39
frustrating. But yeah, from an ethical
27:41
standpoint, I mean, if you're building, you know, manufactured
27:44
housing, you're building mobile home parks on places that are
27:48
undeveloped. And do you have the zoning and
27:50
permissions to do so? I mean, don't they feel bad?
27:52
Ultimately, this is like robbing young families and people that
27:55
are kind of getting their, their foothold in, in the economy
28:00
there. It it's robbing them
28:01
opportunities. I mean, what, what is their
28:03
rationale? Is it just kind of like kind of
28:05
a, just a, a viewpoint like we don't want to, we're not okaying
28:09
anything else. It just kind of heels in the
28:11
dirt kind of thing. Yeah, I think, I mean, I think
28:14
The Cave is so good because it is an accurate representation
28:18
of, of, of many people's feeling, which is I just don't
28:21
want anything to change. You know, So I'm against
28:24
virtually everything because I just what, what I have right now
28:27
is what I want to stay forever. And you know, I think, you know,
28:31
we all know like the only constant is change.
28:35
And the question is, are we going to, are we going to, are
28:37
we going to create the change or are we going to submit to the
28:39
change? Right.
28:40
And so, you know, I, maybe I'm doing what I'm doing because
28:43
I've always been somebody who wants to create that change.
28:46
And they're, you know, a fair bit of people in our in our
28:50
political systems who are, you know, interested in maintaining
28:54
power through, you know, what comes to mind.
28:56
You remember in Yellowstone when John Dutton stands up, is
28:59
running for governor, he says, I am against any any progress.
29:04
I'm actually really, I actually really enjoy that show.
29:08
So I'm not giving John Dutton a hard time or or Kevin Costner,
29:11
because I think a piece of me kind of resonates with that in
29:14
that place. But you know, it's, it's not
29:16
suburban Philadelphia, right? Like Wyoming is not suburban
29:20
Philadelphia. It's.
29:20
Also easy to be against progress when you got a 30,000 acre dude
29:24
ranch. Yeah, it's it's right.
29:28
I. Got mine and I'm building a
29:29
fence around it. Leave me alone.
29:33
Yeah, I, I will say, Ryan, I mean, you know, this AI, I'm in
29:40
real estate and I, and I mentioned earlier, I can't think
29:42
we're notoriously it's slow to adapt.
29:46
So like for instance, I was, I was helping run with my
29:49
partners, we were running a home building company through the
29:51
Great Recession of tremendously successful.
29:55
And, and I and I learned at that stage of my career about real
30:00
estate in the real estate industry.
30:01
And there were so many. I mean, there used to be a page
30:04
in O8O9, there was a web page dedicated to the counting the
30:09
number of home builders who went bankrupt, who filed for
30:11
bankruptcy. I mean, it was, you know, 10s of
30:14
thousands, right? It just kept growing, like the
30:15
number of home builders filing for bankruptcy.
30:18
And many of them, in my experience, you know, had a
30:21
perspective based on maybe their history and prior recessions was
30:25
we're just going to wait it out. You know, that their mantra was,
30:28
you know, we've seen this before.
30:30
We're just going to wait it out. And unfortunately, you know, I,
30:34
I was ingrained. It was ingrained in me in the
30:37
whole building business that, you know, you figure out how to
30:40
adapt. You figure out how to, to get
30:44
your product in the hands of consumers to make it easier for
30:47
them to buy even in challenging times to be financially strong.
30:52
You know, I learned you're strong when you when you owe the
30:54
bank a ton of money, when you owe the bank no money.
30:57
And I always wanted to be in a position where I could pay the
30:59
bank off. Yeah, I just learned the pain of
31:01
having too much leverage in that environment because we were
31:04
super successful by not over levering through that
31:07
environment. But you know where I'm going
31:09
here. Is this real?
31:11
The real estate industry is just slow to adopt, right?
31:13
That that idea of we're just going to wait it out permeates
31:18
particularly, I'll say that the residential industry and you
31:21
know, multi families probably the best.
31:24
Then the home builders, you know, they're, they're not
31:26
awesome, but but they're getting better.
31:29
The better ones are getting better.
31:30
This is technology and AI. And then like even below the
31:33
home builders is like manufactured housing, right,
31:36
which would be like viewed by many as the lower rung of, of
31:40
home building. And so as a result of that
31:44
experience for my firm, you know, I would say we're, we're
31:47
trying to be on the leading edge of our industry in adopting
31:54
artificial intelligence within our, within our company and, and
31:58
figuring out how do we deploy it.
32:00
And you know, I'm happy to say there are some really good use
32:02
cases and I and I'm a little disappointed that frankly it's
32:05
not as good as as we'd like it to be right now.
32:08
Do you think there the reason that that real estate is kind of
32:11
slow to adapt is just because it attracts kind of people with
32:14
like a lower risk tolerance profile?
32:20
Yeah, I hadn't thought about that question.
32:23
That is, I think there are certainly drivers of that.
32:28
And and if you dug into the kind of psychographics of who's more
32:31
attracting to lower risk profile, there's probably all
32:33
these other kind of aligned factors that make them less
32:37
likely to adopt. I think it's probably a fair
32:39
characterization. It's interesting and it maybe it
32:41
presents opportunities from startup community.
32:43
I mean, what's what's kind of very appealing about real estate
32:47
from my perspective is as an asset class.
32:49
It's something that you get to see being built and then people
32:52
move in. It's like, ah, there's something
32:55
very satisfying the, the, the feeling and kind of startup
32:58
community, you know, everything from precede all the way up to
33:01
the enterprise. I talk to them all, all the time
33:03
is everybody feels behind, like everything is advancing so very
33:08
quickly. And as people are kind of
33:10
placing bets, there's like a lot of anxiousness.
33:12
I mean, the, the, the, the startup finance market is so
33:16
frothy. I mean, people are throwing
33:18
money at everything right now hoping that one thing sticks out
33:22
of 100 because ultimately it's like, dude, will my whole
33:25
category be absorbed by the next model update?
33:28
Like nobody really knows. And every single models update
33:33
is like a major release on a weekly basis.
33:35
So the the hype cycle is at an absolute peak, you know?
33:39
So for me looking at a different access class to park some cash
33:42
real estate looks it does look romantic.
33:45
You're like, oh man, cool manufactured.
33:47
Housing, Well, that's interesting.
33:51
That's interesting perspective. I think I was recruited to
33:56
investment banking, to investment banking, right on a
33:58
college, you know, I was an academic, all American, played
34:01
basketball and and Lehman Brothers, actually this is all
34:03
pre 911 had a program where they recruited people who had
34:07
achieved that designation. And yeah, the truth is at 22
34:10
years old, I didn't really know what investment banking was.
34:12
I was a liberal arts undergrad and I was, I was married and so
34:17
I wasn't going to move to New York and leave my wife, who was
34:19
still had a semester remaining. But but as I've kind of moved
34:24
beyond that, I spent my career in real estate.
34:26
You know, what I really enjoy is something you mentioned is like
34:29
it's tangible. I can drive by, I can see it.
34:32
You know, I don't get if I don't over lever and I operate well, I
34:37
know I'm not that that investment is not going to zero.
34:39
Yeah, right. And and you know, I've, I've,
34:42
I've been fortunate to be able to invest not just in real
34:45
estate, but other things. And you know, there, there have
34:47
been investment losses where you go like, oh man, like that kind
34:51
of went poof. And if I'd have bought a piece
34:54
of dirt or bought a cash flowing property, you know, guess what
34:57
that doesn't, that doesn't go poof.
34:59
You may maybe you're not thrilled with it, but it
35:01
probably doesn't go poof. It's probably pretty
35:03
inflationary, probably protected against inflation.
35:06
And then I think what I discovered after, after home
35:09
building Ryan is you know the the tax advantages of investing
35:14
in existing real estate like mobile home parks through
35:18
depreciation are, are so significant that frankly for
35:23
investors who are investing in tech and looking for a way to
35:27
offset those gains, investing in manufactured housing, whether
35:32
with us or somebody else is really a great way to offset
35:36
gains in those investments. 100% because there's certain tax
35:39
incentives. Well, and, and not just
35:43
incentives, but you know, effectively because of the
35:46
losses someone gets through depreciation and a manufactured
35:50
housing investment or RV investment or even self storage,
35:54
which are all asset classes we're focused on, You'd have to
35:58
get like a third higher return in any other asset class, right?
36:02
Like if you're saying, oh, I can get 10% in the market, well to
36:04
get an equivalent tax adjusted return in the market reaction to
36:08
get a like 13 or 14 to to get the same return and we can
36:12
provide a manufactured housing because of the tax.
36:15
Benefits amazing and I'd like to talk about arcs a little bit
36:18
because you know, before we we started recording you just said
36:21
something that was really cool. It's like, hey, this is this is
36:23
where my family office invests their money.
36:26
If people want to jump on board, that's great, but like this is
36:28
going to happen for us. And so you you kind of take in
36:31
like a a position of it just gives you I think like a ring of
36:36
integrity that like you're vetting the deals by the
36:39
standards that you have and that's where you're you're
36:41
placing your book. I mean think about thinking
36:44
about the other side. What should people be aware of
36:47
when they're starting to think about real estate investments?
36:50
And I mean a kind of the classic like Florida condo scam or well.
36:58
You know, it's, it's interesting.
36:59
So you know, I've, I've always invested in my own businesses
37:04
and, and it was fortunate to have capital to be able to do
37:07
that. And I didn't start with a grand
37:08
plan. Like when I started Arsen 16, I
37:11
didn't start with like, hey, I'm going to build this thing up
37:13
with other people's money. I really just said, well, I need
37:16
a place to invest. And, and I would say maybe in
37:19
the back of my mind I had a thought like if I'm successful,
37:23
Well, I had two thoughts. One is I can't ask other people
37:25
for money until I prove what I can do on my own.
37:28
And the second was, you know, once we do that then maybe we
37:32
would invite some people to invest with us.
37:34
Well, frankly we've been way more successful than I probably
37:37
thought we'd be. And that's a that's a credit to
37:39
our team. We've got AI sit outside
37:42
Philadelphia in the Philadelphia suburbs and we've got a a team
37:46
of about 25 people, maybe 1/3 of that is our corporate team,
37:50
including in house counsel and CFO and operations and so on.
37:53
And we've got property managers spread out throughout,
37:56
throughout the region, our properties.
37:59
But I would say that you see like, well, what, how do you
38:03
pick a real estate investment right now?
38:05
And you mentioned this earlier, Ryan, you said, oh, well, it's
38:08
been the golden age of real estate investing.
38:10
And I, and I think you're right, like if somebody lost money in
38:14
real estate investing between like 16 and, and 22, like, boy,
38:20
I mean, they should just like split burgers or something.
38:22
I don't really know. I don't really know how how that
38:25
was possible. Now the challenge that I think
38:29
the market, let's say the market has, is it's been if we take
38:33
COVID out, how long has this been since we had a real
38:36
recession, right? It was, you know, O8O9, right?
38:39
Like, so it's, it's this, this boom is growth is a little long
38:43
in the tooth. We're coming, we're nearing 20
38:46
years, which would be the longest now.
38:47
And constantly, Oh, we had a COVID recession.
38:49
But but I, I think that's a little bit of a blip.
38:52
It's not a traditional kind of economic recession.
38:56
There are a lot of people in my opinion, that are swimming
38:59
naked, right? But as a Buffett who said, you
39:01
know, when the tide goes out, you find out who's swimming
39:03
naked. And one of the truest tests to
39:06
me is you find out like who actually has invested their own
39:10
capital, real capital in these deals.
39:12
And you know, we've got a system that doesn't necessarily
39:15
incentivize frankly, you know, I call them young people, but you
39:19
know, now they're in their, you know, mid 30s maybe and early
39:21
40s where they've only known up and to the right.
39:24
They've only known low interest rates.
39:26
They've only, no, no, it's time to refi.
39:28
And, you know, no problem getting refinancing.
39:31
And I am, for better or worse, I think mostly better.
39:34
I'm scarred forever by the Great Recession and that, that website
39:39
of how many thousands of home builders went out of business
39:42
and understanding what it looks like when you know what, when
39:45
you've got $30 million borrowed and you're building, you know,
39:49
100 homes and you've got to navigate through that.
39:53
And so I'm just, I'm unwilling to, to do that with other
39:56
people's money and not do it my own money.
39:58
Yeah. So what that means for us is,
40:01
you know, our family is we, we make the 1st and largest
40:04
commitment to any one of our offerings.
40:06
And yeah, we're, we're big believers in them.
40:08
And, you know, are we perfect? Absolutely not.
40:12
But we do, we do believe that we're very, very aligned with
40:15
with our investors who choose to to join us.
40:18
Amazing. How do you source deals?
40:22
So we we have a combination of I'll say inbound and outbound.
40:26
We are. I wish AI could help us here.
40:29
Maybe it does a little bit, but you know, in manufactured
40:31
housing. Like, if I want to buy an
40:33
existing mobile Home Park, it's probably not the case that the
40:36
owner lives in the park, right? So if I was buying land, you
40:42
know, I drive by and maybe that person lives there.
40:44
They probably live there and knock on the door and ask him if
40:46
I can buy their farm. Buying a mobile Home Park is a
40:49
little harder. So, you know, we're trying to
40:51
leverage AI to get those lists of people, you know, who owns
40:56
what and get their mailing address.
40:58
And other people are doing that because my phone rings off the
41:00
hook with, you know, somebody from the Philippines calling me
41:03
trying to buy my mobile home parks.
41:05
So the outbound looks like postcards and and referrals.
41:09
I mean, frankly, many mobile Home Park owners, no other
41:14
mobile Home Park owners. And when we do a good job in
41:17
helping an owner transact, sell their property, move into
41:21
retirement, you know, they're happy to, to share their
41:24
experience with, with other owners.
41:27
And then we, we do a fair bit of inbound, you know, I wouldn't
41:31
say that it was ever anti broker.
41:32
I, I think the challenge is, you know, like many industry, many
41:35
industries, right, Like 20% of the people do 80% of it the
41:39
business. So we need to find that the
41:41
right network of brokers who brought us deals that were
41:43
properly valued, expectations properly set with the sellers.
41:47
And so we we do work with brokers in the space who who can
41:51
deliver us properties. Amazing.
41:53
We just got a couple of minutes left, so I want to take us into
41:55
the quantum round. Are you ready?
41:59
Well, you know, does it matter? I'll be ready.
42:02
No, the quantum round is more of a black hole.
42:04
You're getting sucked into it against your if you don't want
42:06
to. OK, here we go.
42:08
First question, why is there a human skull on your desk?
42:14
That is to remind me of my mortality, that this life will
42:18
end. And you know, hopefully on a
42:21
daily basis, it keeps me focused on the longer term.
42:27
Being kind. My faith is really important to
42:29
me. To me that, you know, there used
42:33
to be a bracelet. WWJD.
42:34
What would you just do? I certainly don't always do that
42:37
perfectly, but that skull reminds me that there is life
42:41
beyond this one, and I shouldn't just be living for this moment.
42:44
Love that. You know, it's, it may be, may
42:47
seem morbid, but I'm a school guy too for much of the same
42:50
reasons. I think it's it's important,
42:52
it's it, it's kind of a a stoicism maybe that was lost in
42:56
the culture. But like in Europe, of course,
42:57
they have those incredible catacombs where you can just go
43:00
see your great, great granddaddy and all his cousins all spread,
43:04
spread out. It's very cool.
43:06
OK. You talked about like
43:08
integrating AI into real estate and looking for opportunities
43:11
there. I know a lot of people are going
43:12
to be listening to this conversation and seeing an
43:15
opportunity of like, oh, hey, real estate, it might be a good
43:19
place to start build tools. So maybe talk a little bit about
43:22
which LLMLLM tools you're using and kind of in what capacity
43:27
what you're using them for on a daily basis?
43:30
George sort of the team here. We are using both Claude and
43:33
chat. I think our team is really
43:37
enjoying the Claude Excel widget.
43:41
We're using that quite a bit. And I think, you know, frankly,
43:46
over the last like 3 months, we probably have transitioned
43:51
primarily to Claude versus chat. Sometimes we'll pop back and
43:54
forth, but Claude seems to be a little more, I'll say, built for
43:57
business. And so that's been our
44:00
experience there. It's funny, before this call, I
44:02
jumped in and was talking to our analyst and one of our
44:06
accountants to understand how they're how they're using it.
44:09
And I would say that it is on the underwriting side.
44:16
It's helping us decide which deals to kick out and ignore.
44:20
And we get a lot of deal flow. But we could waste waste a lot
44:24
of time on the human side digging through a deal,
44:29
underwriting and then finding out, oh, there's this
44:31
characteristic that like we would have never even
44:33
entertained it if we would have known this.
44:35
Well, AII think Claude in particular is helping us parse
44:39
that out earlier. So we're just saying like, Yep,
44:41
you know, we've got our list of kind of non negotiables.
44:44
If it has one of those on there, boom, it's out.
44:46
So we're really able to, I think, do deeper dives on the
44:49
stuff that maybe we wouldn't have gotten to or we were not
44:53
doing as deep a dive as we needed to in order to focus on
44:56
on acquiring an asset. So I think Claude has been
45:00
excellent at helping us sift through and eliminate things.
45:06
I think I think that's clearly the case.
45:08
Yeah. I mean there's there's probably
45:10
applications there for just ongoing Cron jobs that are
45:13
pulling deals and opportunities and you know, using them to
45:16
disqualify with those kind of red flags.
45:19
What? What's that list of red flags
45:21
that disqualifies a deal? Non negotiable, you know.
45:26
The property in a floodway, you know, kind of a regulated
45:29
floodway that that'd be a non negotiable, you know, as the,
45:33
the, is there private infrastructure that needs
45:37
significant capital improvement? So for instance, you know, a 60
45:41
year old wastewater treatment plant where I'm not opposed to
45:44
wastewater treatment plant, but a 60 year old treatment plant
45:47
means I probably need a budget, you know, 1,000,000 1/2 bucks
45:51
out of the gate. And, and guess what?
45:52
The broker and the seller, you know, we're hoping they're,
45:55
they're going to find a sucker. And you know, we're still
45:58
operating in a space where there's, there's still kind of a
46:00
Wild West characteristic to it versus maybe the multifamily,
46:04
which I think has become more institutionalized manufactured
46:07
housing still has a lot of suckers out there.
46:09
And we got to make sure that we're, we're not one of those.
46:13
I think on on the I was just, you know, my team said like
46:15
formatting, whether it's on the accounting side or underwriting
46:20
and reporting, you have it. These these feel like they're
46:23
kind of low hanging fruit is like formatting reports that
46:27
frankly, you know, somebody without kind of who was an Excel
46:30
whiz would have spent a lot of time on and now focus their time
46:34
elsewhere. And do we do, do you do I really
46:37
want to pay for somebody to be an Excel whiz in today's world?
46:40
I mean, no, like why would we, why would we invest in that when
46:43
we've got a system that can do it as well?
46:46
Yeah, it's, it's interesting because my, my daughter's a a
46:49
freshman studying finance at Mizzou and she had a whole Excel
46:52
class and she was kind of struggling with it.
46:54
I was like, sweetheart, Claude just did a Excel integration.
47:00
Just get that. I mean, you learn for the test,
47:03
but you will never need this information ever again, you
47:06
know? But it, it, I, I think it'll
47:07
serve her maybe like have the basis of understanding.
47:11
But yeah, it's, it's moving very quickly to that point.
47:14
If you were a freshman in college right now, what would
47:16
you study? I would, I think I'd study
47:20
exactly what I did study, which was I was a double major in
47:23
communication and political science and I'm a big believer
47:28
in the liberal arts undergrad. I just, I think that as we begin
47:34
to commoditize or increasingly commoditize some of these
47:39
electronic functions, I can remember when I was really
47:43
jealous of a Co worker who was like an excel whiz and a new
47:46
macros and all this and I just thought I just went to school
47:48
for the wrong thing. I just think we're going to
47:51
we're going to place a much higher value going forward on
47:54
some of those softer knowledge, softer knowledge, softer
47:58
abilities. I would have studied history a
48:00
little more. Now I enjoy reading history
48:02
outside of school, but I probably would have spent a
48:04
little more time studying history and maybe even
48:06
philosophy. Yeah.
48:07
Cool, amazing. Now I know that the
48:11
International Justice Mission and Tim Tebow Foundation are
48:14
important to you. Maybe maybe talk a little bit
48:16
about those nonprofits and why they're important to you.
48:21
Yeah. Well, yeah, I think people who
48:25
people who are focused on it understand that we've got a mass
48:28
epidemic of, of modern day slavery in the United States and
48:32
around the world. And, and, you know, some of the
48:34
things that happened to the US perpetuate that and that that
48:38
slavery looks like child and, and women enslavement both for
48:43
for labor and for sex trafficking.
48:46
And that is something that's near and dear to my my wife's
48:49
heart and, and as a result, my own heart.
48:51
And those two organizations, I think are really at the front
48:56
lines of trying to deal with the bad guys and make sure that's
49:02
brought to the light and rescue the folks who are who are
49:05
enslaved. And so I'm we're big supporters
49:08
of of those two organizations. Very important work.
49:11
And it, it probably doesn't get mentioned enough that like those
49:14
two organizations in particular, like literally doing sting
49:17
operations, reclaiming these girls and, and, and boys, you
49:22
know, and then bringing these people to justice, you know,
49:24
which I, I think there was a statistic that like, there's
49:28
slavery is more prevalent today than it's ever been in human
49:31
history, you know? So, yeah, shout out to those
49:34
organizations and we'll put those in the liner notes.
49:36
You can learn more at ljm.org. And then the Tim Tebow
49:39
Foundation is all over the Internet.
49:41
You can find that as well. Shout out to to Tim Tebow, a
49:44
Mile High salute to him. Last question before we wrap
49:47
this up, are the 76ers going to make the playoffs this year?
49:54
I love Philadelphia sports, Ryan, but I don't think so.
49:57
I've been down on the Sixers for a while and I'll tell you, I
50:00
don't really call into radio shows.
50:02
And we've got really good talk radio, sports talk radio in
50:05
Philadelphia. And when Joel Embiid won the
50:07
MVPI did my only call in and I said trade him, trade him now
50:12
you know, his value is never going to be higher.
50:15
And of course, you know, the owner didn't listen to me and I
50:19
think the feedback was he puts too many bucks in the seats to
50:21
trade him. But I don't think he's going to
50:23
win in today's game with a centre like like Embiid, and I
50:27
don't think the Sixers are going to make the playoffs.
50:29
He's a great player and he had a great season, but we all know
50:32
Jokic was the actual MVP that year.
50:35
Well, he he, he feels like he's the MB MVP every time he steps
50:38
on the floor. Amazing Nathan.
50:41
This has been awesome man. I really appreciate the
50:43
conversation. Everybody check out
50:45
arcsventures.com. There's an opportunity if you
50:48
want to invest in the fund or just to see kind of what, what
50:52
Nathan's up to and like how he's evaluating deals and where he's
50:56
moving. Really cool.
50:58
I, I love this conversation. Again, that's Arcs venture.com.
51:01
If people want to connect with you online, Nathan, where's the
51:04
best place to do that? They can DM me on LinkedIn or
51:10
they can just e-mail me nathan@arcsventures.com.
51:13
I'd love to interact with our investors.
51:14
And you know, as as our largest investor, I have a lot of great
51:18
conversations. We've been fortunate to, to many
51:22
of our investors are business owners themselves and
51:24
entrepreneurs and I've really appreciated learning from them
51:27
as we've built this business. So I love talking with folks,
51:30
whether they invest or not, just I'm always edified by those
51:33
conversations and I hope they would be too amazing.
51:35
Reach out to Nathan. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you
51:37
so much for joining me. You are about to spend anywhere
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