Latest / Virginia Outdoor Adventures: Hiking, Camping, Kayaking, Local Travel and more! / A Hiker’s History of the Appalachian Trail with Mills Kelly, Author and A.T. Historian (Ep 82, Pt 2)

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A Hiker’s History of the Appalachian Trail with Mills Kelly, Author and A.T. Historian (Ep 82, Pt 2) · Virginia Outdoor Adventures: Hiking, Camping, Kayaking, Local Travel and more!

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: From the Blue Ridge Mountains to the Chesapeake Bay, Virginia is a Mecca for outdoor travel and adventure.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Virginia Outdoor Adventures Podcast is your local guide for hiking, camping, kayaking, travel, and so much more.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: Get the information and the inspiration to plan your own adventure.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: Right here in Virginia.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Jessica Bowser.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: The Appalachian Trail is more than a footpath.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's a living piece of American history.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: Stretching over 2,000 miles from Georgia to Maine, the AT winds through some of Virginia's most beautiful and rugged landscapes.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: But have you ever wondered how this legendary trail came to be and who the dreamers, builders, and hikers were that shaped it?
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: We're hiking through history with someone who knows the Appalachian Trail like a few others do.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: My friend Mills Kelly is a historian, archivist, podcast host, lifelong hiker, and author of the new book, A Hiker's History of the Appalachian Trail.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: His book captures the 80s history not just as a collection of facts and dates, but as a human story about purpose, adventure, and our search for meaning in the mountains.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: Mill shares fascinating stories from the trail's early days and how it has changed over the past century.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: And when you think about how far we've come, from hikers in wool suits carrying canvas packs filled with fresh produce, to today's ultralight gear and freeze-dried meals, it's amazing to see how the trail has evolved right alongside us.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Mills reminds us that the AT wasn't built for heroic end-to-end tracks, but for ordinary people to breathe easier and feel a little wilder for a few hours or a few days.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: That simple idea still shapes lives, towns, and trail culture across Virginia and beyond.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: The story of the Appalachian Trail is as much about the people and their experiences as it is about the path beneath their feet.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: So join us as we hike back through time on the world's most iconic long-distance trail.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: Let's go! This is part two of a two-part episode.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: Virginia Outdoor Adventures is sponsored by Brakes Park and Heart of Appalachia.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: Known as the Grand Canyon of the South, Brakes Park is a hiking destination in the Heart of Appalachia.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: You'll find trails for every skill level featuring geologic wonders, canyon overlooks, stream crossings, and abundant wildlife.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: Stay close to the adventure with lodges, cabins, and campgrounds inside the park.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: Beyond the breaks, the heart of Appalachia invites you to hike and bike through breathtaking mountain landscapes, paddle hidden hollows, reel in trout from crystal clear streams, or hop on an ATV to conquer the rugged spearhead trails.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: Take a scenic drive, embark on an elk tour, and explore Virginia's treasured southwest, where you'll also find vibrant local dining, shopping, and celebrations.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: Your next outdoor adventure starts in the heart of Appalachia.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: Tap the links for Brakes Park and Heart of Appalachia in your show notes.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: How has the trail shaped small towns throughout Virginia?
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, it's really a great question because Makai, when he proposed the trail, that was not one of his interests.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: He really didn't think of it of the trail as an economic engine for rural America.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: But it turned into that beginning in the 1960s when hiking really took off.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: Before that, you know, I mean, people who own the local store or the local cheeseburger place were happy to see a few hikers, but that's what they saw was a few hikers.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um now they're tr they're small towns that are just, you know, they're entirely oriented around the hiking community.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: Damascus, Virginia is probably the most famous of those because they have the Trail Days Festival every year in May, where thousands of people come.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like a NASCAR race for them in terms of its economic impact.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: But all up and down the trail in Virginia, small towns have really benefited from the presence of the hikers, whether they're just there for the day, the you know, the weekend, or longer distance.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, for instance, you know, I live in Linden, Virginia, just outside of Fried.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: And at the bottom of the mountain from us is the Montre store.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just a little tiny store.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, but if you go in, you can tell that they're set up for the hikers because you can buy Pop Tarts, sleeves of Pop-Tarts, not a whole box of Pop Tarts.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: You can just buy an individual sleeve, you know, and and you can buy oatmeal packets, not like a whole box of instant oatmeal packets.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: And and um and they have painted on the back of the building, like you know, Appalachian Trail, and they have on Friday nights, they often have a bonfire out back to and to encourage the hikers to come.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's just about a mile from the trailhead.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a popular little stop.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: And and you've been to that that intersection, there's like nothing there except there's a uh like a vegetable stand across the street in a post office, and that's it.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so so that little store it really benefits from the presence of hikers.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: I love that little store.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: I stop in every time I'm in that neighborhood.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they have a great cat.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: They have a wonderful cat.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: So it's that's the that's like the smallest example, but and Damascus is probably the the biggest example, but really all up and down the trail.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: And and I don't know how long ago the the officially designated Appalachian Trail Community Program began with the ATC.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: But once that began, then the the Appalachian Trail Conservancy started really helping towns like Front Royal here where I am to become trail communities.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: And they had to agree to you know have a certain number of services.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: You should have a camping store, you should um provide shuttles to hikers who want to come into town.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: But that really helps these towns uh which have struggled.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: And you talked too in your book about how it wasn't just towns, but sometimes individual families who didn't even know that the AT was nearby where they lived until hikers started appearing and what that meant for them to, you know, start offering lodging and food and and shuttle services and different things that hikers needed.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, before Airbnb was something that people said in, you know, in the same they said Airbnb in the same sentence.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: The trail guides, going back into the 1930s, they listed the names of people who would take in hikers and as boarders, overnight boarders.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so like I can remember, you know, reading there was a family, the Reed family down in Southwest Virginia, who would and it was great because there's a five-digit phone number in those days.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, you call Caledus Reed, and he or his wife would come pick you up and take you to their house.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: And for a dollar or a dollar fifty, you get dinner, you get to spend the night, and then you got breakfast, and then they took you back to the trail.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: And they did that because a dollar fifty was a lot in the Great Depression.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: Really interesting.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you were also saying that a lot of the shelter logs, that some of the notes that people left in there was about who was friendly to hikers and where they could find lodging and where they could find meals based on who they had come across in the past.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: So they were basically passing on that information to other hikers.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: And like who was making apple brandy out in the barn without a license, you know, to do that.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's where I would have gone.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think also this is what made your last book so interesting when you talked about Virginia's lost Appalachian Trail, is how the trail was such became an economic driver and what it meant to the communities in Virginia when the trail got rerouted, right?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because then the the towns had started to rely on hikers coming in no longer had that anymore and what that meant for them.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, it was very painful for them to have the trail rooted away.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it would be today if that were, you know, if that were the case.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it's been a little controversial in Maine because the trail used to run right through the town of Monson, Maine, which is at the beginning of the hundred mile wilderness, the last hundred miles before you get to the northern terminus at Katain.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: And just several years ago, the Conservancy rooted the trail, and the Maine Appalachian Trail Club root rooted the trail around the town on the premise that they want the trail to be as wild as possible instead of going through town.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: And that was really hard on the merchants in in this little tiny town of Monson who for decades had been, you know, supporting the hikers as they headed off into the hundred mile wilderness and uh or as they staggered out if they were southbounders.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so they were kind of unhappy about it.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and so they've uh last somebody told me recently, they put up signs like here's how you get into town.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think I'm gonna drop a link in the show notes to that previous episode where you talked about Virginia's lost Appalachian Trail.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: So if anyone wants to learn more, check your show notes and click that link.
• 9:00
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• 9:04
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• 9:27
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• 9:30
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• 10:00
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• 10:02
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• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to talk about how folks can get on the AT and you know any tips and advice you have there.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: But before we do, I want to take just a couple of minutes to discuss how the AT became a cultural icon and its current challenges, but in particular, how hikers can give back or even pay it forward today.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: So today we think about the AT as a global icon and people from around the world come to hike it.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: So what do you think has driven its rise in popularity?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think that the tremendous popularity of the Appalachian Trail today is heavily influenced by social media, you know, the existence of smartphones, because that made it possible to really show the trail to a global audience in a in a very kind of instant way.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of like the cherry on top in many ways, because it had been that popularity had been building for decades.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: There was this kind of a media ecosystem around the trail, people writing books and short documentaries and things like that.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and then in 1996, Bill Bryson published um A Walk in the Woods, which was a runaway bestseller.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that really brought the trail to the attention of a much larger audience.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, Robert Redford made a movie about it.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: Terrible movie, but you know, they made a movie about it, and that expanded the knowledge of the trail even more.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: And there is has been this kind of media ecosystem around the trail over the years.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, and some famous hikers like Emma Gatewood, Grandma Gatewood, they, you know, they bring a lot of attention to the trail.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's just been kind of building over time.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: What's especially interesting about the Appalachian Trail is that it's the only national park that is run entirely by volunteers.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean, there there is it, there is a superintendent, uh, National Park Service superintendent of the of the park, because every national park has a superintendent, and they're two accountable two law enforcement rangers for the whole 2,197 miles.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, which also tells you it's a very safe place because they only need two.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: As a you know, shelter maintainer, we have to abide by various um park service regulations and um about you know building codes and things like that.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: And when the government shut down recently, we had to stand down as volunteers briefly until we got a ruling on whether the insurance that covers us was still in effect.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: It was, so we could go back to volunteering.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it is a relationship with the federal government, but the Appalachian Trail Conservancy loosely oversees, coordinates, really is a better way to put it, 30 plus trail clubs who each have a section of the trail that they take care of.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so there are thousands and thousands of people every year who volunteer on the trail and tell their friends about it.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: And and they're proud of that service.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: So that really helps a lot too.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Earlier you mentioned that places like McAfee Knob here in Virginia were dealing with overcrowding and littering, and we still see those problems today.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, what can be done to balance access with preservation?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a that's a constant debate.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's a been a debate in the Appalachian Trail community since the 1970s, really.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um before Leave No Trace became a thing, littering was really common everywhere in in the United States.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm old enough to remember it.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: And the amount of litter and just kind of destruction of things like shelters and picnic tables and things like that was getting out of hand.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: And a number of the trail volunteers started advocating for the removal of all the trail shelters as a way of cutting down on the vandalism and trash and partying and all that.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: And uh fortunately, it wasn't a majority of trail volunteers who felt that way.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: It was more like say 30%.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: But there was a serious discussion about whether to remove all of those shelters, and out of that discussion came efforts between the trail clubs, the ATC, the forest US Forest Service, the CR Club, and others to develop a set of wilderness ethics guidelines, which today we call leave no trace, and the ridge runner system along the Appalachian Trail with paid employees of the ATC who go up and down the trail and help people and advise them about wilderness ethics and and not littering.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, but I would say that the biggest thing that can be done is if you're out on the trail and you see a piece of litter, pick it up.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: And if you see someone drop a piece of litter, you can just say, hey, you dropped something.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: Not not like, hey, what's wrong with you?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to confront them.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you can just say, Oh, you dropped your water bottle.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like, of course you would want to pick that up and they pick it up immediately because they know they're not supposed to do that.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh, the one thing that drives me completely insane is the dog poop bags.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because and on our podcast, you know, I had a discussion with the Smithsonian's uh conservation biology center small mammal expert.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: So he's like the guy.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: And and he's works for the National Zoo in the Smithsonian, he knows it all.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: And and I asked him, I said, Is it okay to take a stick and just flick your dog's poop off into the woods?
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, Absolutely it is.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's totally fine.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: That dogs don't transfer pathogens to other man mammal species.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, just flick it off, which is better than taking your little green dog poop bag, filling it up, and then setting it down on the trail, which is what people do.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because they believe they believe that there is a dog poop, a poop bag fairy, right, that flies flies down the trail every night picking those things up, which there isn't.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, and who wants to be the volunteer picking up dog poop of all things?
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: Other people's dog poop, you know.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's bad enough to pick up like I hate doing it with my own dogs.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's worse if it's somebody else's dog.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: So uh but so really if you see somebody like fill up their little dog poop bag and set it down, you can say, well, you know, there's not a poop bag fairy.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so, but really, just if you see a piece of litter, just pick it up.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's just not that hard.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: It makes a big difference.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: It all it all adds up.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Everything you pick up is one less thing that other people have to deal with.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: Adventure seekers will find endless opportunities in Grayson County, where many of Virginia's iconic trails and landmarks excite hikers, cyclists, paddlers, and happy campers alike.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Imagine this: you're hiking on one of the most scenic sections of the entire Appalachian Trail through the George, Washington and Jefferson National Forests.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: Summiting Mount Rogers or White Top Mountain, the two highest peaks in Virginia, or strolling through the valley of Elk Garden where the now extinct Eastern Elk once roamed.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: Or maybe your perfect day is on the water.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: Grayson County is home to the New River, one of the oldest and most scenic rivers in the world.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: Enjoy a leisurely Class 1 flow with the family or adrenaline-packed Class III rapids.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: Navigate the waters using the New River float calculator to plan your trip.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: The app factors flow rate, water levels, weather conditions, vessel type, and more to calculate flow times from point A to point B.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: Prefer two wheels?
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: You won't want to miss the Grayson Gravel Traverse, a 72-mile mixed surface gravel bike route that connects the Virginia Creeper Trail and New River Trail over well-maintained and remote roads, featuring a variety of challenging climbs in the foothills of Virginia's highest peaks.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: This overlooked gem of Virginia presents some of the best gravel cycling in the state, mostly unridden and undiscovered.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: After a day of adventure, there's nothing like gathering round a campfire under a sky filled with stars.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Grayson County offers plenty of spots to pitch a tent, like the New River Campground, or cozy up in a rustic cabin at the Buckwild Reserve.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: Discover why Virginia is for outdoor lovers.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: Start your Grayson County adventure at the historic 1908 Courthouse and Visitor Center.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: Or learn more in episode 81 of Virginia's Adventure Towns, featuring Freeze, Grayson County's hidden gem on the New River.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: Find links to the episode and Grayson County's visitor guide in the show notes of your podcast listening app.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: Trail clubs have been around for a really long time.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: What role do trail clubs play today?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: So the trail clubs are essential to the history of the Appalachian Trail.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Several of the clubs predate the trail.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: The Appalachian Mountain Club, for instance, the Green Mountain Club both predate the trails.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: The Dartmouth Outing Club does.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: These are all clubs that help maintain the AT, among many other things that they do.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: The Smoky Mountains Hiking Club predates the trail.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: The Carolina Mountain Club does.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: But most of the trail clubs were formed, like the Potomac Appalachian Trail Club here in Northern Virginia, were formed to build and then maintain the Appalachian Trail.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what we do.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mentioned I'm a trail, a shelter maintainer, so I take care of the Manassa Scamp Shelter.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: I go at least once a month during peak hiking season, more like twice a month.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: I pick up trash, I clean the privy.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: If something's broken, I fix it.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: We cut out invasive species.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: Remember, you put me to work.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: You were like, here's a saw, go start cutting tree of heaven.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: We remove a lot of tree of heaven, a lot of garlic mustard plants, uh, you know, things like that.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we do all those things.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but also, and I've been a trail maintainer, not on the AT, but on some trails in the Prince William Forest Park that the PATC cares for, you know, you uh it's mostly erosion control and uh making sure the trail's not eroding away.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: And but trail clubs build bridges, they put up signs along directional signs along the trail.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: They they they really make it possible for the trail to be as accessible as possible to as many people as possible.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: From your perspective as a historian, Mills, what do you think Betton Mackay, the trail's founder, would say about the AT today?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a great question because um Mackay was incredibly proud that his idea became this big deal because he lived into the 1970s.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: He was 95 years old when he died.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so by the time he died, the trail had become very popular, and he was really proud of that.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: And he also liked being considered the founding father, you know, gave him some personal satisfaction to be kind of a celebrity, but he also had a kind of mixed feeling about the way the trail ultimately developed because he wanted it to be a truly wilderness trail.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: And other people who were building the trail, like uh Myron Avery with the ATC and the PATC, they wanted it to be a completed trail.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: And if that meant road walking, if that meant being close to a road, that was okay with them because that would get the trail done.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: And Makai was kind of scandalized by that because you know, if you're walking down the trail and you can hear cars, well, that's not a wilderness experience.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so in the 1930s, he and Avery actually had a big falling out.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Makai kind of self-exiled himself from Appalachian Trail until after Avery's death.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: And the um and he went off with a couple of other people to form the Wilderness Society, which was much more focused on preserving truly wild places.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: On the one hand, he would be, I think, really thrilled to see how popular his trail had become and how many people used it every year because the original intent was was being realized.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: And on the other hand, I think he would be a little disappointed by um how commercialized it's become.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: How many people hike on the trail as a way of promoting their businesses and their brands.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: And he actually, in his original proposal in 1921, he warned about that.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: He used that he used a 1921 term Yegmen, Y-E-G-G M-E-N, which I had to look up.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'd never heard that one before.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it really means kind of a scam artist and uh and like a snake oil salesman.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so he would have been um, I think, really scandalized by the number of people who used the trail to promote a personal brand.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: Gosh, that one just hit home because I see that happening so often.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, wow.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, there was like there was a couple a few years ago who threw hike, they wore purple the whole time, and and they played music, they keep backpacked with guitars, and they are promoting their CDs, their or their you know, music, you know, stream our stream our music.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, or social media influencers who are using it to get attention, to get more likes and follows on their pages and YouTube.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: And here's the thing he yeah, and here's the thing he really would not have been impressed by was people who are going after the fastest known time.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: He was he was fond of saying that he wanted to give an award to the person who took the longest to hike the trail.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: He said this over and over and over because he said if you walk slowly, then you're truly observing nature.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: If you're trying to get from one place to another really fast, you're missing the whole point.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I couldn't agree more with him.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he would have hated that.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think that there are plenty of people who would love to hear some practical advice and inspiration for experiencing the AT for themselves.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Now, let's start by just saying that Virginia has more miles of the AT than any other state.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: Why is that significant for hikers in Virginia?
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, because it means that you know there are 525 or so miles of the 2,000 plus miles are in Virginia, a little over a quarter of the trail.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: So that means that wherever you live in the Commonwealth, you have reasonable access to the trail.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you're in, you know, Chesapeake, Virginia, the trail is a ways.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure is.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's what you need.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's the extent of your equipment.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you want the bug spray because you don't want ticks or biting insects.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: And and um you want to dress for the weather because anytime you go hiking, you want to dress for the weather and you have to have water because don't drink the water you find on the trail unless you can purify it.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that's all you need.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: And and we're not talking about hiking the entire distance of the AT through the state of through the Commonwealth of Virginia, excuse me.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like this was meant to be accessible to everybody for day hikes, a couple of hours, for example.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like it doesn't need to be a section hike.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, it doesn't.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the first thing.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then the second is um, you know, if you want to go further, the easiest way to do that is to go with another friend who also has their car, and you park one car at one end and the other car at the other end, and you hike to the other car, and then you drive back and get the first car.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, you could do 10 miles in a day and but have a car waiting for you at the other end.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so that's also easy.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there are very few sections of the trail in Virginia that are really physically challenging.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: There's some for sure.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: There are some, yes, definitely.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: There are some for sure.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: But like in Shenandoah National Park, um, which encompasses about a hundred plus miles of the trail, you know, there's definitely some uphill stretches, but they're not killers.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so um, if you're even reasonably fit, it's just not that hard.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: And and so, and you don't need to go out and invest in special clothing, special boots, that's that sort of thing.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, through hikers hike in trail runners.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, many.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: They they don't wear boots and um they just mostly wear trail runners.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I see people hiking in in Tevas.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it's uh you really don't need super specialized equipment.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: And the trail is just really inviting in that sense.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have any favorite sections of the trail?
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then I also would love to know, because we just talked about challenging sections, what those challenging sections are, because I know a lot of them are really popular, and I don't want anybody to get caught up in the all trails craze of oh, everybody's doing this hike, and then they realize it's too difficult.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: There are a couple of really challenging sections.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, anything in the Grayson Highlands has the potential to be very challenging.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, I mean, there's sections in the Grayson Highlands that are not so bad.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, they can be bad from a weather standpoint.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like I walked from Massy Gap to the uh partnership shelter on to on Mount Rogers because I wanted to go to the summit of Mount Rogers.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: And the hike itself wasn't all that hard.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: What was bad was I had early October and I experienced every single weather that you could experience.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: I had sun, I had fog, I had rain, I had sleet, I had snow, I had thunder and lightning, I had heavy winds, all in the space of like six hours.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: I've I've been there done that.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: So um, and it was a wonderful hike.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: I loved it, but if I hadn't had the appropriate clothes, I would have been really sad.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: I could have gotten hyperthermia, you know.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: So um, so but but there's stretches in the Grayson Highlands that are very up and down, and um, so that's hard.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: The three ridges in um along the Thai River, it depends on which direction you're going.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if you start, if you're going southbound and and you start at at the sort of north end of the three ridges wilderness, then you walk down the three ridges, and that's not so bad.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: If you if you start at the Thai River and go the other way, it's really challenging because it's you know, it's in many of it's like a 30-35% grade, and um it's not well switchbacked.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's really hard.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the priest um is a really popular hike to hike from it's one the other the other way from the three ridges and um from the Thai River.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: And there are something like 95 switchbacks on your way up to the summit of the priest, and uh and it's about a 2,000-foot gain, 2,500 foot gain.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so that's for the fit.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: And uh that is a hike for the fit.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's a beautiful hike, but it's it's definitely for fitter people.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, so there are stretches like that, and it's it's advisable to as you're looking at a section of the trail, you have to know your own personal fitness and you know how you feel about hiking uphill or downhill, and then you can get an elevation profile of any stretch of the trail.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: They're all available online, and so you can say, Oh, oh, I see that's like really steep right there.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll skip that part um if that's what you want to do.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, those are those are some of the more challenging parts.
• 28:41
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• 29:06
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• 29:13
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• 29:19
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• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: Now, you Mills are fond of solo hiking, I happen to know.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: What advice would you give to solo hikers, especially those exploring the AT for the first time?
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I love to hike by myself.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: For me, it's a kind of meditation.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, and my wife worries about that because I'm a little klutzy and I fall down, and she's always worried I'm gonna fall and like break a leg or something.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: I love the way you walk, it's so enjoyable to walk behind you and what and like just watch your gate.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's so interesting.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't lift my feet as much as I should, and so I trip over things, but what I tell My wife, all the time, is that with the exception of a couple of stretches of the AT in Virginia down in the south, the Appalachian Trail is really a highway, and um there are lots and lots of people out there.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so if I did fall and break a leg, probably within a couple of hours, and no matter what, within 24 hours, somebody would walk by and find me.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so, um, but also most of the trail now has cell coverage, most of the trail.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: And there are plenty of sections that don't.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: Even in Shenandoah National Park, there are a few stretches that don't.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like the face that face the east face of the mountains in Shenandoah National Park, especially around Madison County, um, there just aren't cell towers down below.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so you don't get cell service on the east side of Skyline Drive.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: But if you cross over to the west side of Skyline Drive, then you're picking up all the cell towers in the Shenandoah Valley.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so you have great service, like you know, like you're in Northern Virginia.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: So cell phones work generally really well too.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um but the other thing is, and this is really important, is that if you're gonna go hike by yourself, tell someone what route you're going to take, and then stick to that route.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: Many is the time that I've been hiking by myself that I saw what looked like a much more interesting route that I wanted to take, but I had told either my wife or my kids, this is the route that I'm going to be on.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so I didn't deviate.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: I just made a note that the next time I go here, I want to go the other way.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, if you don't show up, they know where to look for you.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: I know that you and I both believe that making connections with nature and in this case with the trail is super important for all of us today and making connections even from the past to the purpose of the trail today.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: So in your book, you write about the AT as a place where people find solutions to whatever ails them.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: What does that mean to you personally?
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm retired now, so my life is a lot less stressful than it than it was up until February of this year.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, I mean, I've had a lot of different kinds of jobs that were pretty stressful.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so for me to be able to go out into the forest and just decompress has has been essential.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: And whether it was here, you know, along the Appalachian Trail or we've lived in a variety of different places where I had to go find parks to do that.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the Japanese have this concept of forest bathing.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: And um, which you would think is like, oh, it's Japanese, so it's an ancient thing, but it's not, it's a much more recent phenomenon.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of work in cognitive science to show that forest bathing actually does what people think it does, which is it reduces your stress levels, it you know, just sort of calms you in general, it leads to sort of better cardiovascular health.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's just in general, it's just really good for you.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's what it's meant for me.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, for a lot of people, especially long distance hikers, um, going out on the Appalachian Trail was also an opportunity to either redefine themselves, become a different person than the one they were, or to manage a life transition.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: And my my friend Dips, who I mentioned before, in her case, it was a recent divorce.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, she had to kind of figure out like who am I going to be now?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: And um, she didn't want to be a different person, but it was more like how am I going to navigate the new version of my life.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it really helped her with that.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: And other people, you know, it's they've retired or they've lost a job or they've had a death in the family or whatever.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: And in the case of Earl Schaefer, the first through hiker, he lost his best friend in the Battle of Okinawa.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he was killed in a foxhole a few feet away.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: And and uh Schaefer couldn't get over it.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: And and so, and he tried a variety of things, and that was before we had the idea of PTSD, but for sure that's what he had.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: And he finally decided that what he was going to do was, as he put it, walk the war out of my system.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: He decided to start walking in in Georgia and walk to Maine, and he figured by the time he got to Maine, he would be better, and he was.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: Wasn't cured, but he was better.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: And this was before Forrest Gump came along, too.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: So nobody was thinking about it at then.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, but this concept of redefining yourself or studying personal challenges and goals that you can conquer and what that means for your mental health and your physical health.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's um it's significant for a lot of people.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: So you have been studying and hiking the AT for many, many years.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: What continues to draw you back to the trail?
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, well, for me, I mean, it's just been so much a part of my life since I was young.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: But it was, uh and I would say, you know, I had kind of a, on the one hand, I had a very stable childhood.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: My parents stayed married forever.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: They were married 59 years.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we lived in the same house pretty much my whole life.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: So outwardly pretty stable, but inwardly it wasn't so stable.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: My mother had narcissistic personality disorder, my father drank and traveled, and and um, so my home, and I was an only child, so I kind of got the brunt of all of it.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so going off into the forest was a way to get away from all of that craziness in the house.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, and so the woods became my happy place where none of that mattered.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, my parents were very loving, they just had their own problems, and uh so the uh the forest was like I say, it was just it was my happy place and it has maintained that status in my life.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so if I lived on the on the west coast, I'd be hiking, you know, the Colorado Trail or the Pacific Crest Trail or something else.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: I just I just really uh it just gives me peace.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's what keeps bringing me back.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: Mills, in your opinion, how can history deepen our appreciation for the trail that we hike today?
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: The Appalachian Trail is a trail that runs through a part of Virginia that has been inhabited for thousands of years.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's very difficult to find evidence of the indigenous presence along the trail.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you really would have to be an expert to find it.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: However, most of those old abandoned roads that we talked about earlier, uh, many of them, maybe not most, but many of them were laid down by colonial settlers over old indigenous trails, because indigenous people were really good at picking out a route for a trail that was sheltered from the weather and, you know, and took advantage of the contours in the land.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so a lot of the trail that we walk on today is on top of old roads built by colonial settlers, which were built on top of paths carved out thousands of years ago by indigenous people.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: So as you're walking on the trail, you can think about it in that sense that there are all these layers of history that you're walking through.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then, especially here in northern Virginia, the trail north of Shenandoah National Park, uh, up to Harper's Ferry, a lot of that section of the trail was part of the Underground Railroad.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the Underground Railroad is not well mapped in any way.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: But like I live on Blue Mountain here in Linden, and there's some kind of vague maps of the railroad uh that show it going right up here over this mountain.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's probable that you're also, if you're in northern Virginia anyway, you know, you're walking on the same routes that people took, fleeing enslavement.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, you can see especially not so much in Virginia, but in Maryland, you can see Civil War fortifications and and um so you know, American history is just sort of there in layers and layers all along the trail.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so understanding that kind of deep rootedness of the history, um, I think really uh enhances our appreciation of the place that we're walking.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: Where can listeners find your new book, A Hiker's History of the Appalachian Trail?
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: It is everywhere you might want to look for a book, um, you know, all the online platforms and that kind of thing.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: But I will say that I am a huge supporter of woman-owned independent bookstores, independent bookstores in general, and I'm especially a fan of women-owned independent bookstores.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you go to my website, MillsKelly.net, I have on the homepage uh links to three different um bookstores that I happen to love.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: The thing that I didn't know until I published my first book about the trail um is that there's an organization called bookshop.org.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's a nonprofit that um that helps independent bookstores make money on book sales.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you have an independent bookstore in your community that you that you patronize, that you support, just go to bookshop.org and search the name of that store and it will take you to their quote unquote shop on the platform.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then you search Hiker's History of the Appalachian Trail.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: And and when you purchase it, they get they actually get a lot of the sale price and from that.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: And um and and I'll say I get like 25 cents more than I would get if you bought it through Amazon.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: So not a ton more, but a little bit more.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: And um it all adds up, right?
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: It all adds up, yeah.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: So um, but mostly what's really important about that is supporting our independent bookstores.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: I just recently became familiar with that website because another one of my guests who talked about mushroom foraging, she has a book that just came out and she recommends it too.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I started looking on there, I'm like, this is fantastic.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like it's sometimes hard to get to your independent bookseller, like you have to make the extra trip, and you know, maybe there's not one nearby, depending on where you live.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: You hop right on there and you're still supporting those small local shops.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it could be a shop that you know you used to go to when you were a teenager and it's still there, um, you know, in a part of the state that you used to live in and or a part of the country.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, bookshop.org is one of my most favorite platforms.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: And becoming mine too.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: How else can listeners connect with you?
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm, you know, of course, all over social media.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: Instagram is probably the best way.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm telly7029 on Instagram.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: That was the what was available when I set up my Instagram.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: So t Kelly7029.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh on Facebook, you know, I'm there under Mills Kelly.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and then, you know, on my website, uh Mills Kelly.net.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: Those are all the best ways to find me.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: And is your podcast still available?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: So our podcast, the Green Tunnel Podcast, which has 50 episodes on the history of the Appalachian Trail, is still fully available.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, we finished the show, we did kind of the whole history and then we stopped and uh last year.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and so you can just search the Green Tunnel podcast on any of the podcast platforms you might use, and it's easily findable.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: Or the website um for the studio where it was produced is R2, like like the number R and the number two, studios.org.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: Fantastic.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: I put we'll put links to all of those things in the show notes so people can find them easily.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: Mills, thank you so much for coming back on Virginia Outdoor Adventures to talk about your love and passion for the Appalachian Trail.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder how many other people have as much knowledge and information about the ATE as you have, Mills.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: Not many.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: I know one for sure, Brian King, um, who was the longtime publicist of the Appalachian Trail Conservancy.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: He still knows about 10 times more than than I do, but but I'm getting up there.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think we are super lucky to have you here in Virginia.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much, and thanks so much for having me on the show.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's a real pleasure.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for being a guest, Adventure On.
• 41:10
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• 41:20
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• 41:25
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• 41:49
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• 41:51
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