Latest / The Morning Edition / Antisemitism is feeding all forms of extremism: Peter Hartcher on ASIO boss’ striking speech

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Antisemitism is feeding all forms of extremism: Peter Hartcher on ASIO boss’ striking speech · The Morning Edition

0:07
S1: In December last year, Australia was confronted with its worst
0:10
S1: ever incident of antisemitic violence when gunmen killed 15 people
0:15
S1: on Bondi Beach at a Hanukkah gathering. That came after
0:19
S1: the firebombing of the Adas Israel synagogue in Melbourne and
0:23
S1: an arson attack on the Lewis Continental Kitchen in Sydney.
0:27
S1: The Australian Security Intelligence Organisation, or ASIO, has now warned
0:32
S1: that hatred of Jews is one thing virtually all violent
0:35
S1: extremist cohorts have in common. How do we reach a
0:39
S1: point where so many Jews now say they feel unsafe
0:42
S1: in Australia? I'm Benjamin Price, filling in for Samantha Salinger Morris,
0:47
S1: and you're listening to Morning Edition on The Age and
0:50
S1: The Sydney Morning Herald. Today's guest is international and political
0:55
S1: editor Peter Hartcher. It's Thursday, July 2nd. Peter, in your
1:04
S1: latest column, you covered the 2026 threat assessment by ASIO
1:09
S1: Director General Mike Burgess. What were some of his points
1:13
S1: that you found most striking?
1:15
S2: Well, it's always an interesting annual statement. ASIO director general
1:20
S2: were completely invisible people pretty much until Mike Burgess came along.
1:25
S2: He's raised the profile of ASIO, which if people need
1:28
S2: an analog, is Australia's FBI as the nearest equivalent to
1:31
S2: domestic spying and security agency? One point that he made
1:37
S2: stood out to me very powerfully. I hadn't heard it
1:41
S2: put this way before, and it's not anybody trying to
1:45
S2: inflame passion. This is a cool analysis from the guy
1:49
S2: who runs an agency responsible for all of our security,
1:54
S2: giving an analytical appraisal of what we glibly call anti-Semitism,
2:01
S2: which is kind of a euphemism, I think, for what
2:03
S2: it really is, which is Jew hate. But it was
2:06
S2: the way in which he approached this that really struck me.
2:10
S2: So Burgess said this sadly and illogically hatred of Jews
2:15
S2: is one thing virtually all the violent extremist cohorts.
2:19
S3: Have in common. neo-Nazis are anti-Semitic. Islamic extremism is anti-Semitic.
2:28
S3: Issue motivated groups can be anti-Semitic, particularly when they subscribe
2:31
S3: to conspiracy theories and stereotypes about the Jewish community. Nation
2:37
S3: states can be anti-Semitic, as we saw with the arson
2:40
S3: attacks against the Jewish communities in Melbourne and Sydney perpetrated
2:44
S3: by criminals. Directed by Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps. Anarchist
2:51
S3: and revolutionary groups can be anti-Semitic. And this gets surprisingly
2:56
S3: little media coverage. But Australian companies with perceived links to
3:00
S3: Israel are being subjected to repeated acts of vandalism and
3:04
S3: arson by far left activists. Now I recognise the criticism
3:09
S3: of the government of Israel is not of itself anti-Semitic,
3:13
S3: but some of the threatening statements made by the perpetrators
3:16
S3: go well beyond political protest or commentary. All these groups
3:22
S3: have different ideologies. They do not associate with each other. Indeed,
3:27
S3: for the most part, they despise each other. The way
3:31
S3: they operate. Their tactics and techniques are all different, and
3:35
S3: yet they are united by a common hatred.
3:40
S2: My point that is striking, that is a new analytical
3:45
S2: framework that marks out anti-Semitism, marks out Jew hate as
3:51
S2: a unique phenomenon because it is not a standalone phenomenon.
3:55
S2: According to his analysis, anti-Semitism is the hate that feeds
4:00
S2: all the other forms of extremism, inflames and empowers them.
4:06
S1: Can you take us a little bit further into what
4:09
S1: you mean by anti-Semitism, inflaming other hatreds? Is it the
4:13
S1: case that anti-Semitism comes first and then others follow, or
4:17
S1: does it mean something else?
4:20
S2: Well, it means many things to many types of extremists.
4:24
S2: And as Mike Burgess said, it is something that they
4:29
S2: have all latched on to and that they all use. Why? Well,
4:34
S2: that's a point that he didn't address, but I think
4:37
S2: we can see that it is. First, it's an ancient
4:41
S2: and amorphous and highly illogical hate. Most of it is
4:46
S2: based on complete nonsense or conspiracy theories. Some of it,
4:50
S2: of course, stems from hatred of the Netanyahu government and
4:54
S2: Israel's conduct, which is a separate matter entirely. Hating the
4:58
S2: Netanyahu government is a political act. Hating Jews is a
5:04
S2: racial and religious act of bigotry, and extremist groups latch
5:09
S2: on to this because they figured out that it gets
5:12
S2: people worked up, it gets attention, and it's surfing in
5:16
S2: on a much larger and older tide of emotion, which
5:20
S2: they can exploit for their own causes. Everything from the
5:24
S2: far right to the far left. State sponsored terrorism, whatever
5:28
S2: the cause may be. And it also can be a
5:31
S2: useful way, as it is in the case of Iran,
5:33
S2: of disguising true motives. Sure, the Iranians probably don't love
5:40
S2: the Jewish people, but that's not the reason that they're
5:43
S2: conducting terrorist operations and state sponsored operations of violence in Australia.
5:50
S1: Can you help me understand why the Iranian Revolutionary Guard
5:55
S1: Corps seems to have an interest in attacking Jewish targets
5:58
S1: in Australia.
6:01
S2: Well, ever since the revolution and ever since the Islamic
6:06
S2: Republic was founded in 79, the explicit stated purpose has
6:11
S2: been to spread the revolution, to spread the revolution around
6:15
S2: the world, and now to use that their most valuable tool,
6:22
S2: and a clever way of avoiding direct responsibility for its
6:25
S2: actions has been through proxies. As we know, Iran has
6:30
S2: created or co-created, continues to sponsor, fund, organise and direct Hamas,
6:37
S2: which operates, of course, in Gaza. It sponsors Hezbollah, which
6:42
S2: operates as we speak, from Lebanon against Israel. It sponsors
6:49
S2: the Houthis in Yemen, and it sponsors an international movement
6:55
S2: above and beyond those groups that has spread its tentacles
6:59
S2: around the world. We know that they had a plot
7:03
S2: to assassinate Donald Trump a few years ago. Get in
7:06
S2: the queue, I suppose, and and some of his some
7:11
S2: of his advisers and officials, John Bolton, for example, and
7:15
S2: it operating wherever it can. It murders targets in London.
7:20
S2: If it can get them. It murders in Europe. It
7:23
S2: it murders wherever its revolutionary tentacles reach. And although we
7:30
S2: can be pretty safe that the Islamic uprising that it
7:35
S2: purports to sponsor is not going to break out spontaneously
7:38
S2: in Australia just because of some IRGC sponsored arson attacks
7:42
S2: or other acts of violence or vandalism. It is a
7:46
S2: core part of their operating mechanism to justify the rule
7:53
S2: of the ayatollahs and the IRGC at home, justify its
7:56
S2: budget and activities to and to destabilize the US, Israel
8:01
S2: and everybody it sees as their allies.
8:04
S1: So Mike Burgess said Australian companies with perceived links to
8:08
S1: Israel were being subjected to repeated attacks of vandalism, arson
8:13
S1: from far left activists. Why do you think this is happening?
8:17
S2: It's an extension of the anti-Israel and in a mistaken
8:22
S2: connection to anti-Israel, anti-Semitic and Jew hating foment that has
8:28
S2: been running in Australia for, well, it's been running everywhere
8:31
S2: in the world for centuries, but has particularly accelerated since
8:35
S2: the Hamas violent raids on Jewish settlements on October 7th,
8:39
S2: 2023 that has inflamed the the anti-Semitic movement worldwide. Activists
8:49
S2: have difficulty striking at Israel itself. Of course. So that's
8:53
S2: why they fall back on MPs electoral offices or Australian
8:59
S2: companies that are perceived to have. And sometimes the connections
9:03
S2: to Israel are so attenuated that it's difficult even to
9:07
S2: really seriously connect them in any serious way. But it
9:10
S2: doesn't stop these people because they need if you're running
9:14
S2: a cause, if you're an activist in a cause, your
9:16
S2: cause needs continuous momentum, needs continuous efforts at enlarging itself
9:21
S2: in recruiting, demonstrating effects. Of course, Ben Netanyahu is a
9:29
S2: deeply unpopular man around the world, including including in his
9:33
S2: own country in Israel. And he's got a big problem
9:35
S2: coming up with an election due by the end of October.
9:38
S2: His nonstop disproportionate violence in this last, last phase in particular,
9:46
S2: but in Gaza, in Lebanon has not only brought even
9:51
S2: Donald Trump out in criticism of him, saying, Trump said,
9:55
S2: just in the last week, you know, Bibi, every time
9:58
S2: you want to get some guy from from Hezbollah, you
10:02
S2: don't need to blow up an entire apartment block to
10:05
S2: get him and called him crazy. But he's also managed.
10:08
S2: Netanyahu has also managed to turn the entire majority US
10:12
S2: population against himself. Now, that's a terrible self-inflicted wound strategic
10:19
S2: wound for Israel to lose majority support in its its
10:22
S2: biggest and most important ally. So Netanyahu, we all know,
10:27
S2: is a very unpopular figure whose tactics and motivations for
10:32
S2: a lot of the violence that he wages are completely
10:35
S2: abhorrent and unjustifiable. But how does that in any way
10:39
S2: justify attacks against Jews in Australia, especially because nearly all
10:45
S2: of them, They're not Israeli citizens. They're Australian citizens, their
10:48
S2: fellow Australians, I think. Ben, this is the most quixotic
10:53
S2: of all the many protest movements and all the many
10:57
S2: veins of hatred and extremism that run through our society
11:02
S2: and course through social media and pollute, pollute our societies.
11:06
S2: I think this is I think Jew hate is the
11:09
S2: most quixotic, as in literally Don Quixote, where they're attacking
11:15
S2: a windmill. Don Quixote thought he was attacking a monster
11:19
S2: to protect a maiden. They're attacking. They're not attacking Netanyahu
11:23
S2: makes absolutely no difference to Netanyahu. Doesn't doesn't even know
11:26
S2: that a people attacking Jews in Australia exist and doesn't care.
11:32
S2: So they're attacking the wrong target. They do absolutely no
11:35
S2: damage to their intended target. All they do is damage
11:40
S2: their own society, their own country, by harming fellow Australian
11:44
S2: citizens and sowing fear and distrust in their own society.
11:50
S2: This is an act of self-harm. When Australians attack Jews,
11:53
S2: they are attacking fellow Australians almost, almost exclusively, almost entirely.
11:59
S2: And whether they're attacking them directly or rhetorically, they're instilling
12:03
S2: fear in fellow citizens. And that has awful effects across
12:09
S2: our society. So it's truly quixotic and insane and self-harming.
12:14
S2: And I think Mike Burgess overwhelming point and overarching point here,
12:18
S2: and what was really novel was to say that it's
12:21
S2: not only having those effects, it's also spreading extremism and
12:26
S2: doing the work of extremists by spreading poison throughout all
12:30
S2: the other causes that are using anti-Semitism to empower them.
12:38
S1: After the break.
12:41
S2: Australian citizens of all creeds, colors, genders. We are all
12:46
S2: Australians and all deserve equal respect and equal protection and
12:49
S2: safety in our homes and in our country.
13:03
S1: So when does legitimate criticism of the Netanyahu government and
13:08
S1: indeed some of the more ugly acts of the more
13:10
S1: extreme ministers in his government, when does criticism of those
13:14
S1: things cross over into anti-Semitism?
13:18
S2: Well, criticize Netanyahu, criticize the state of Israel, the government
13:22
S2: of Israel, by all means. That's a political act. We
13:26
S2: all we all criticize. The difference here is that when
13:30
S2: you or I travel abroad, nobody's holding us to account
13:35
S2: for the political decisions of the Albanese government or what
13:38
S2: the Scott Morrison government did or some, you know, historical
13:42
S2: act that Australia committed, however horrendous it might be. But
13:46
S2: uniquely we hold Jews responsible. They might not even be
13:51
S2: citizens of Israel. But why are we holding them responsible
13:53
S2: for the actions of a particular politician who happens to
13:56
S2: be leading Israel at this moment? And as you say,
14:00
S2: one of the reasons that Netanyahu has been so ceaselessly
14:05
S2: and disproportionately violent in recent years is because of Ben-Gvir
14:09
S2: and Smotrich, the two far right and extremist ministers in
14:13
S2: his government, whose support has been fundamental to Netanyahu holding power.
14:19
S2: Now that's all. They're all legitimate targets. The moment you
14:23
S2: post something about Jews being horrible or Jews being responsible
14:28
S2: for some evil or some misstep or whatever it is,
14:32
S2: that's when you have crossed the line from a legitimate
14:37
S2: attack on a government, a legitimate criticism of a prime minister,
14:41
S2: a cabinet, an army, whatever it is, into a mindless, hateful,
14:47
S2: hurtful act of unthinking bigotry that harms, not Netanyahu. It
14:53
S2: harms your fellow citizens and empowers not just the anti-Semitic
14:58
S2: movement in itself, but empowers all the extremist movements that
15:02
S2: are currently attempting, with some success, to poison our social harmony,
15:08
S2: our social cohesion, and to damage a small, tiny but
15:13
S2: vulnerable and important part of our society, Jewish Australians. And
15:17
S2: we need to protect all our minorities because we are
15:21
S2: all we are all part of this project of modern Australia.
15:24
S2: There's not. Despite what Pauline Hanson might be telling us,
15:29
S2: Australian citizens of all creeds, colours, genders we are all
15:34
S2: Australians and all deserve equal respect and equal protection and
15:37
S2: safety in our homes and in our country.
15:41
S1: So, Peter, I just want to steer you back to
15:43
S1: the Royal commission into anti-Semitism. You've been following it, and
15:48
S1: I was wondering what stood out to you this week
15:50
S1: from the commission hearings.
15:54
S2: Uh, I'll just pick out two points, if I may, Ben.
15:57
S2: One is the way that Steven Lowy described his family's
16:02
S2: experience of Jew hate in Australia because his father, Frank Lowy,
16:07
S2: who's still alive but he's now 95, migrated to Australia
16:11
S2: in the 1950s as a refugee from the Holocaust, arrived
16:15
S2: with nothing, set up what was to become one of
16:17
S2: the country's greatest and most successful businesses, Westfield Shopping Centres,
16:21
S2: which became an international success when John Howard invited him
16:25
S2: to reorganize Australian soccer. He took what used to be
16:29
S2: called pejoratively wog ball and restructured it into the modern
16:34
S2: professional success that it has become. The performance of the
16:37
S2: Socceroos today owes some not little to that legacy. He
16:42
S2: went on to become one of the country's most important philanthropists.
16:45
S2: And what what is his his thanks for doing all
16:49
S2: of this for our country. Well, his son, his youngest son, Steven,
16:53
S2: this week at the Royal Commission, said that Frank is
16:58
S2: held responsible, bizarrely for by anti-Semitic activists and nutjobs around
17:05
S2: the world, apparently for the nine over 11 terrorist attacks
17:08
S2: on the US. And every September there's a peak in abuse,
17:11
S2: online attacks and criticism. Death threats to Frank Lowy. Steven
17:16
S2: said his his own family, his wife, his kids, his
17:20
S2: personal safety are threatened every day for the sole crime,
17:26
S2: the sole crime of being Jewish. And that's it, he said.
17:30
S2: In a single year, his family has received 15,000. In
17:36
S2: one year, 15000 hostile or threatening posts, almost continuously referring
17:42
S2: the worst and most dangerous to the police. There was
17:45
S2: an Iranian found conducting hostile surveillance of his home without
17:50
S2: without innocent explanation. It just struck me that no matter
17:54
S2: how good a citizen you may be, no matter how
17:56
S2: effective are you created this giant business that employed 5000 people.
18:01
S2: You made a lot of shareholders rich, you're a great philanthropist.
18:04
S2: You did all these things above and beyond the call
18:06
S2: of duty, like reorganizing the soccer in Australia. And his
18:10
S2: children and his children's children are being abused and threatened.
18:14
S2: It doesn't matter how successful, how kind, how good, how
18:16
S2: rich you are, you can never be forgiven for the
18:21
S2: original sin, apparently, of being Jewish. And it's just so
18:24
S2: bizarre and so wrong and so shocking that that stood out.
18:29
S2: The second thing that stood out was that we learned
18:31
S2: that in the first block of hearings for this Royal commission,
18:35
S2: 26 of the witnesses who took the witness box and
18:39
S2: addressed the Royal Commissioner were subjected to online hatred, vitriol
18:44
S2: and threats where even the act of speaking in a
18:49
S2: formal setting to give formal evidence to a royal commission
18:55
S2: is being deemed illegitimate somehow by these people because it
18:59
S2: relates to the subject of anti-Semitism. This is a mania
19:05
S2: beyond any possible logic, without any possible good outcome here.
19:12
S2: This is so hateful and harmful that those two points
19:17
S2: stood out. Not only is nobody safe for the sole
19:20
S2: crime of being Jewish, but that these people even want
19:24
S2: to shut down discussion about whether it's even legitimate to
19:29
S2: discuss the problem a society. Look, Steven Lowy said to
19:32
S2: me after he'd given his testimony, he said, what gives
19:34
S2: me optimism is that Australia is a country showing itself.
19:38
S2: It's a country that can examine itself. These people even
19:41
S2: want to shut that down.
19:44
S1: Anthony Albanese often says we need to kind of tone
19:46
S1: it down. We need to cool the temperature a little bit.
19:50
S1: Is there a point to that? Is there is there
19:52
S1: a way that we need to be able to better
19:54
S1: have these sort of intellectual debates without crossing over into
19:57
S1: the personal? Is there a way that we need to
20:00
S1: do this better? I know there's work going on on
20:02
S1: some universities, some universities, about how to argue and disagree better.
20:08
S1: Is there an art to disagreement that we seem to
20:11
S1: have lost?
20:12
S2: There absolutely is. There's there are structured ways to have
20:17
S2: conflict and yet to maintain it within the bounds of
20:23
S2: civil society and a socially functional country. If every one
20:28
S2: of us indulges every angry or violent thought and impulse
20:31
S2: we have, our country would be ungovernable. No family would
20:35
S2: be safe. The place would be a complete disaster. And
20:39
S2: we have many countries, societies and precedents in world history
20:42
S2: which show us how easily that can happen. So for
20:46
S2: that reason, we have structures. So for example, we have
20:49
S2: political parties who can argue vehemently with each other. When
20:53
S2: they stand in the House of Representatives in Australia, they
20:55
S2: stand across a table with despatch boxes on either side.
20:59
S2: The table is an exact replica of the original from Westminster,
21:02
S2: which is designed to be two swords lengths across so
21:06
S2: that they cannot reach to stab each other. This is
21:10
S2: a symbol of the need to structure our larger arguments
21:14
S2: in a way that allows for difference of opinion, even
21:18
S2: furious difference of opinion in a contained way that does
21:21
S2: not produce bloodshed or self harm or complete collapse of order.
21:27
S2: On the sporting field, bitter rivals, you know, will shake
21:31
S2: hands or jump over the tennis net in some cases
21:34
S2: to greet a victorious or defeated combatant. These things are possible.
21:41
S2: The concept that beyond the argument, beyond the issue, and
21:44
S2: the passion of the moment, there is a larger equity,
21:48
S2: which is called our country, our society, and the mutual
21:52
S2: respect that we all benefit from.
21:55
S1: Peter, thank you very much for joining us.
21:58
S2: My pleasure, Bill.
22:09
S1: Today's episode was produced by Kai Wong. Our executive producer
22:13
S1: is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa
22:17
S1: Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like our show, follow
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