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Clement Part 5 - Schism · The Reformed Corner

• Quentin James: This episode of the Reformed Corner podcast is brought to you by Squirrelly Joe's Coffee. Choose coffee roasted by believers who share your convictions. Hello everybody, welcome back to the Reformed Corner Podcast. I am your host, Quentin James. My name is not Michael Jackson, it's Elijah King. Michael Jackson? Wha who called you Michael Jackson? no. I had someone okay. Never I just thought I'd throw this out there. Okay. Anyway, we can do an actual recording. No, this is it. This is what we're going with. Okay. Why do people call you Michael Jackson? I had no one call me Michael Jackson, because that would be incredibly I you know, I'm just not gonna go any further than this. I had someone call me a weird name today. It was not Isaiah, which is typically what happens. but no. How you I'm just not gonna talk about it. We'll we'll just continue on. So welcome to the Reformed Corner. I am sitting in the other corner. He's in the reformed corner, I'm over here doing whatever it is that I do. Yeah, we I just recently rearranged some things here in the study, making some better setup. Hopefully for the podcast, we got a table. We do have a table. Tables are good for putting things on and something that I struggled with in the previous recordings is where the heck do I put the things I'm holding? Now I can put it on the table. Now you can put it on the table. It's crazy. You know we had a small table beforehand, but this is a proper table. This is a proper table, much bigger and when we're not recording, I can play games. Board games, card games. I've been really enjoying Magic the Gathering lately. They just came out with a Hobbit set. I did see that. I've been playing that a lot with my wife lately. It's been lot of fun. anyway, thank you for joining us in the Reformed Corner. today we're gonna be continuing in first Clement. We where we left off last time was chapter forty three. Forty three. And so this time we are going to be picking up in chapter forty four and we're gonna talk a lot about the offices of Elder and Bishop, particularly here in this chapter. So I'm going to go ahead and just read this. It's quite a short one. And so he says, 1 Clement chapter 44. And our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife concerning the title of bishop. Because of this reason, therefore having received complete foreknowledge, they appointed those previously mentioned, and afterwards they gave a rule that if they should die, other approved men should succeed their ministry. Therefore, those who were appointed by them or afterwards by other reputable men, those approved of by the whole church, and those who ministered blamelessly to the flock of Christ with humility, quietly and unselfishly, and those who are well spoken of on many occasions by all, these we consider to be unjustly removed from the ministry. For it will be no small sin for us if those who have blamelessly and devoutly offered we remove from the Episcopate the gifts. Blessed are those presbyters who died beforehand, who have obtained a fruitful and perfect departure, for they have no fear, lest any one remove them from their established place. For we see that you have steered some who led their own lives well away from the ministry blamelessly held in honor by them. All right, so what is going on here? general overview again of Clement is he's writing to the Corinthians because they have deposed their elders in the church. Yeah, this is one of the to me it's one of the most interesting of the apostolic depos apostolic fathers deposit because we see how churches interact with each other and what the goal should be of the church and also like the setup of the church. So speaking about the setup of the church, something that I appreciate from Clement is how he's talking about how the apostles knew through Jesus, you know, that things are going to happen, that Jesus didn't just leave his apostles like willy-nilly, you know. They actually there was planning involved and there was there was assurance in how Christ set up the church. Right. So when you have like a lot of the restorationist movements come and they say that we lost something in church where we should feel confident in talking about it and say, No, we we didn't. Christ planned for this. Yeah, we talked about that last time with the Great Apostasy, your own background with Mormonism. You've fought against that for a while, a little while now, and you're very active online fighting against this understanding of a a great apostasy in the church. Yeah. And the cool thing is is that's this is something that all of the Christian church can unite around. it's one of those things that we don't have to fight about. You know, there's plenty of other things that we can fight about, you know, our understanding of the Eucharist, our understanding of of ecclesiology, you know, how we set up the church, you know, bishop do we have like a episcopacy or do we have a presbytery? Or do we have a congregational setting? Those are the things that we often fight about, but this is something that we don't have to. Right. we can have confidence in Christ and the church that he set up. That it was not going to fail, that it would succeed. the question is what should that look like? Right. So And here we see that the apostles, they pass down their ministry. after they die, they have successors. This is where we get the understanding of apostolic succession from. And last time when we got together we talked about if you are at a church and you're wondering whether or not your bishop, your pastor, your elder, whatever, has actual apostolic succession, don't worry about it too much as long as they are exhibiting the marks of if if the church is exhibiting the marks of a true church. Let's clarify that a little bit. Yeah. How would how would you word that better? So so Paul gives us a direct confirmation of like here's what the elders of the church should be doing. Right. so if your elders are doing that, great. That's the first thing. The second thing would be apostolic succession, which we as Presbyterians understand slightly differently than many of the other Christian churches. So the you know, Rome would see it from not just like the presbyters, but it would be the bishops. So they Presbyters for them are priests. Right. they would see it from the bishops by the laying on of hands. Yeah. And the a priest cannot ordain another priest. No, it'd be a bishop ordaining the priest. Right. there is a little bit of nuance to that. back in the I believe it's the ninth century. Miles over at cross canon creep. I get the name wrong. He's pretty good. There's a bunch of different I know. Different reformed and Protestant papers, but this is canon and creed. Canon and Creed. Miles something or other used to be a Seventh day Adventist. His original channel was Answering Adventism. And I think he answered them pretty handily, so he went over to defend Protestantism generally, and he's doing a great job. Yeah. And he recently came out with a video I highly recommend to you guys, just going through the history of apostolic succession and how it's developed over time. Mm-hmm. So it's quite good. would highly recommend it. But Anglicans see the same thing with bishops, Lutherans, depending on how they're structured. You know, you have Episcopal Lutherans and more synodal Lutherans. but we as presbyter Presbyterians understand I think rightly that the office of bishop, you know the episcopas and the presbyteros are the same office but they have different functions. So they're ontologically the same But it would be similar to having like a teaching elder and a ruling elder. Yeah. That's kind of how we would understand that. So we see presbyterial succession in the church and I think that's there are many at who have done a defense of that, and I think it's rather good. And as we continue on through Clement, we're gonna see that here as well. I w I had read this forty fourth paragraph, verse two he's talking about the apostolic succession, verse five he says, Blessed are those presbyters who died beforehand. Yes. So he's conflating presbyter and bishop in the same paragraph. Yeah, he's using he's using them interchangeably. And this is something you see, you know, Paul does all of the time. So Yeah, last time we talked about Acts chapter twenty, mm-hmm, very clear Paul gathers the elders of the church in Ephesus and says, You are all overseers. Yep. You have like you said, Acts twenty, you have Titus where Paul also uses it interchangeably. we argue, you know, Clement also uses them interchangeably. so it's a and I would argue that all of the apostolic fathers, with the exception of Our boy Ignatius. Our boy Ignatius. use it interchangeably. But he's the church father that Protestants fear. I know, deeply, deeply fear him. when we get to him, I am going to make the argument that No, we don't. There's nothing in Ignatius that Protestants have to fear. Right. nothing there. there's guy Mason over at Biblical Understanding. He's also done great videos on this too. So I'm gonna try to get him on the channel. I've done a video with him in the past on YouTube, yes. But I'm gonna try to get him on the podcast because we're specifically we're going through the fathers. Yeah. And I think I think he'd be a great expert voice, I guess you could say. I mean, he's a layman as far as I know, but he's working hard. He's reading, he's doing the work. He knows his stuff. He knows his stuff. so when we get there, we'll get there. but there's nothing in Ignatius that we have to fear as Protestants. So read Ignatius, read him happily because he is phenomenal. Yeah. He is really, really good. So continuing on in forty four, something I want to point out is that is that there is a sin involved when we depose elders unjustly. Yeah. So you know, going back to like, hey, you're in a church, is that church valid? Well, do they have presbyterial succession? you know Do you how does one know if they have Presbyterial succession? Well, there's a really cool thing. you can just ask. any of the apostolic churches and any of the Protest you know, magisterial Protestant churches are going to have some sort of record regarding the history of their church. So where does it come from? So like our church, we go back to the Scottish Reformation. Yeah. we go back to Knox. We go back to Knox. Knox was a priest in the Roman Catholic Church. Yep. And you just trace the priest the priests back. the Anglicans, almost all of the Anglicans go back to the sixth century when the Anglicans see was actually, you know, put together. Yeah. With the Archbishop of Canterbury. So is that Ambrose? I'm not gonna speculate on that. I the name is the name has gone from me. There was an archbishop of Canterbury his name was either Ambrose or Augustine. I am completely blanking on who it was. It's not the Ambrose or the Augustine, but it does go go pretty far back. Saint Augustine of Canterbury. Augustine five ninety seven, yes. Sent by Pope Gregory the Great to convert the Anglo Saxons, yes. As you can tell, we're doing great tonight. Yes, we know our stuff. We do. We are not learning, we are teaching. Absolutely. My okay, so here here's the thing with this whole venture is the entire goal of it is to get you guys into the fathers. Right. there's nothing you need to fear about the fathers. they do have different opinions than us on many things. And that's okay. Our security is not in the fathers, right? Although we should be, you know, aware of what they're teaching. I mean just last w on Sunday, yesterday, half of the sermon came from the fathers. We had Chrysostom, we had Basil, we had Irenaeus, we had obviously Calvin mentioned in there. Yeah. I forget exactly how he worded it, but Pastor Jonathan said, if you if you stick with the scriptures, Through the understanding of the church fathers, you're going to be in a a ship whose wind, the wind in the sails is is guided by the Holy Spirit. Something along those lines. That the Spirit is the one guiding the church, even when there's disagreement among individuals in the church. ultimately we don't believe that the church as a whole gets it so wrong to be completely off course, because we're not Mormons. We don't believe in a great apostasy. We do not believe in a great apostasy. this is where you get into like Anglican branch theory, which is really good and I'd recommend you go look at it. But I can just hear Jay Dyer coming right after. I know. Jay Dyer. I I fear you, Jay Dyer. So much, so much. He'll sue ya. I know. He will sue me. Cause he has the lawyers. He does. Yeah. So anyway, avoiding Jay Dyer. It's it's what we all try to do. I'm pretty sure pretty sure I'm blocked by him. I am too. He was talking about baptismal regeneration, and I said, I believe in baptismal regeneration. And he says, No, you don't, and blocked me. That's brilliant. Yep. Yeah. I got blocked by Jay Dyer for agreeing with Jay Dyer. That's fascinating. I'm probably not the first. No. He's a little block happy. He is, he is. I I think his desire is to engage with evangelicals who don't know history. Yeah. Generally. Generally. So seems to be a lot of the ortho bros. So. Easy targets. Easy targets, yep. anyway, continuing on. we are so not gonna finish this. We are gonna take our sweet time. We're not going anywhere. We are in no rush tonight. I'm sure people are listening to this on their way home from work, and maybe they've got a nice long commute, and so they they get this the sweet, soft, dulcet tones of our voice to accompany them for their long journey. Cause this is exactly what I want to hear when I'm Yeah, two guys sitting in the n sitting in the shed in the back. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Smoking pipes, drinking coffee. Yes. Squirrely Joe's coffee. Hey, that's a great segue there. Yeah, ca can you guess what I put in these awesome German Steins. They are quite good. Squirrelly Joe's coffee. Guess guess which one? I'm gonna go is it the one sitting up there? that's a great guess, but no, actually. No, no peace tonight. No peace tonight, only war. Only war. That's why you went with Covenant. I went with kindness. Kindness. Kindness. Well, that's why you've been such a I've been a mensch this year. You've been a mensch, yes. but no seriously like Squirrel Joe's coffee. so my wife and I we heard that you know you might be talking to them and so we got the sanctification pack. We're almost through it. So we got through all of the individual blends. Yeah. And so we're just about to get onto the the the actual like blended beans together. It's been fantastic because you know, I grew up Mormon. I did not do coffee ever. Even though the new Mormons, you know, they're all about coffee and all that. neo-Mormons. I'm gonna just start using that. this reminds me of something we're gonna segue into later, but keep going. We keep going. Yeah so I didn't have that. And so now I've I was able to get the whole you know flavor packs they got you stuff from Colombia, they've got Brazil, they've got Ethiopia, and so you're able to try all the different kinds of roast. It's like okay what do I actually like? And so the one we're s enjoying right now the one we've enjoyed the most I think was Honor. Mm-hmm. Which is kinda funny 'cause my wife is very, very Asian. so I'm not gonna do the voice right now, but why not? because this is going on YouTube, my friend. no. Dishonour on your family. Why you have no I got you to do have no honor. but we do have honor because we have Squirrelly Joe's cut. Skrilly Joe's. Which is actually f it is really, really good. I've been able to learn to enjoy the different kinds of coffee. And so I'm excited to get into the blends. I think you mentioned your favorite was Covenant. Yeah, I really like it. It's a good solid dark roast. Very warm, very full flavored. yeah, it's been it's been my favorite so far. Nice. Nice. anyway, so the thing I was gonna ask you about. Yeah. before asking about honor. Yes. So you grew up Mormon. Yeah. And that you started talking about that 'cause coffee. What do you think because of the new Mormons are now drinking coffee, what do you think about all the like e girls that they've been using for their advertisements lately? my goodness, I am s is such good advertising. Yeah. my goodness. It's like on okay, so because I engage Mormons online, like my feed is full of those ads. It's like, my goodness. So you got a bunch of, you know relatively attractive twenty two year old women to hop on there 'cause you're really tells me something about who you're hoping to attract. You know, you're looking for young men primarily Mormon boy can be sung about. yes. I love my Mormon boy. Mormon boy. He is my pride and joy. wait, hang on. You know that's okay, hang on. I've seen the reels. my goodness. Yeah. if you don't know what that is, look up I Love My Mormon Boy and it's a Girl Scout camp. Yeah. sorry not Girl Scout. just girl. Yeah, it's just young women's camp. Girl Scout but Mormon. But Mormon, yeah. actually cool things. The church actually one of the outside of just the allegations happening back, you know, twenty twelve to twenty fifteen with the scouting, one of the reasons that they distanced themselves from scouting was over the inclusion of women into it. So that was kind of interesting. At least that was one of the public statements that they put out. Okay. Yeah. Anyway, so yeah, e girls all over the LS All over. It is literally everywhere. Like ev it's like every other ad right now for me. And like I don't mind that they're spending money on me, you know. Well, I mean we tend to watch more theological content and that's what they're targeting. Yeah. They I mean their ads are theological and so they get placed on theological videos pretty regularly. Pretty regularly. And so like yeah, I I get what they're going for, but it's like my goodness, how Desperate must the church be that that's what they're doing. I know their numbers are dwindling. very, very rapidly. Seems like they're about to be going through a great apostasy. Yes. Well, it's actually very interesting. Some of the people I'm talking to online I had one guy, he said that he was talking to his dad about some of the problems and he's like, Well, maybe we need a restoration for the restoration. I'm like, Holy what? My goodness. That's right. That's right. You need restoration. where you just kinda close the church down and move over to you know an apostolic church. The actual church Christ established. Yeah, the Presbyterian Church. Not the Presbyterian Church USA. Specifically the Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches. Yes. Yeah. Or sorry, the Confederate Confederacy of Reform. Yeah. my goodness. we're gonna get Redeem Zoomer commenting on this. Debate me, debate me. It's like okay. And look, Zoomer, I love you. I love your content. I've been watching your stuff for years, it's great I do not want to debate you. I don't I think that debates are dumb. especially the way that they're done now where you get like ten minutes to make your argument or fifteen and then just a few minutes to respond to the other person's argument and then there's a cross exam. It's not enough time. You can't actually hash these things out in a two hour total debate. No. And what it ends up being is just a a a personality contest between A young twenty something year old and a retard like me. That's I'm not gonna win that. No, no. especially when it, you know, redeems it. I mean, credit where credit's dude, dude. You've read so many books. You know way more about this stuff. He's brilliant, he's well read, he's well educated, but he's also dead wrong on this. Yeah. you know, God can raise up from these stones, children of Abraham. so I think I don't know, I'm I do think he does make good points. Yes. Very good point. Yeah. His his arguments are not illogical. No, no. I just for me, I have a very hard time saying that the PC USA is not a a dead church. I mean the scriptures talk about that. It's it is a distinct warning that your lamp stain can be removed. And I think that there's a good chance it's happened to the PC USA. Unfortunately. And that's not to say it couldn't be reled, you know. Hey, more power to you, Redeemed Zoomer. just stop attacking the rest of us who aren't with you. No, no. And He's like he's like he thinks he's Anakin. If you're not with me against you're my enemy Someone needs to make that meme. That'd be great. Yeah. I probably probably. But I mean the other part of it is that He is what's the best way to say this? he's casting stones where there doesn't need to be stones. Like you're not going to win people over by yelling at them that they're it's a massive tactical error. Yeah, and I think to me like the most convincing videos have been the you know, hey The prove me wrong videos. It's like, okay, I see where you're going with that. I'm not convinced of it yet. Yeah. You can keep putting out the videos, I'll keep watching them. but I think there's Yeah, there's distinct difference between calling the OPC Spawn of Satan. You know, essentially is what you're saying. You know, you're saying that they are taken over by Satan. Yeah. A satanic schismatic denomination. Yeah. and saying that this is why we should return. Yeah. because you I mean he does bring up a good point. You know, if all of the conservatives came back to the Presbyterian Church USA with all the fire and vigor, it would change dramatically. yeah, it would succeed. Yes. But he's not actually attracting any of them to his movement by constantly yelling at them and telling them they're wrong and they're in. No, and not just that, but it's like you know, they are officially for women's ordination. Yeah. Which is against all of the reformed confessions. And that's something that he doesn't even care about. No, no, and I I he's not in favor of it, but it doesn't bother him either. Yeah, and like I I get it. Like you you should try to build alliances where you can, but it's Yeah. It's like the to me it's kinda like the abortion conversation where it's Do we do it incrementally or do we do it all at once? Right. you know, so smash mouth incrementalism versus abolitionism. And I'll just tell you right here, I'm an abolitionist for for a reason. Right. I don't believe that God would bless sin. Yeah. so I wanted to read you this from Scott's Confession is chapter twenty one. Yeah. And it's That was real quick. Well yeah, I mean we started talking about Zoomer, we started talking about women's ordination, and one of the things he loves to to bring up, and he's he's totally right for doing this, is the Scott's Confession's stance on the sacraments, he says, and thus we utterly damn the vanity of those that affirm sacraments to be nothing else but naked and bare signs. No, assuredly we believe that by baptism we are engrafted in Christ Jesus to be made partakers of his justice by the which our sins are covered and remitted. Great phenomenon great statement on baptismal efficacy. But Jay Dyer wouldn't like that, would he? probably not. He doesn't like anything that that the reformers or any any reformed person have have said. but if you keep going into chapter twenty two, he says let's see, he says, and therefore it is that we flee the society with the papistical kirk, the Roman Church In participation of their sacraments, first because their ministers are no ministers of Christ Jesus, yea, which is more horrible, they suffer women whom the Holy Ghost will not suffer to teach in the congregation to baptize. So part of the reason we separate from the Church of Rome is because they allow women to baptize. And the PCUSA allows a lot more than that. They allow women to teach, they allow women to baptize, they allow women to administer the Lord's Supper, and the local PC USA Church in our area allows women to baptize animals. I did not know that. Yeah. Yeah, you can you go get your pet blessing where they sprinkle some water on your your dog. No. That is rather terrible. As as Keith Foskey says, I hope that was a blast for you. Yeah. Yeah. anyway, so Clement is telling us that we can't be deposing lawfully ordained and righteous presbyters, righteous elders. The PC USA has a lot who ought to be deposed because they are not following scripture, they are not walking in righteousness. No, they're not elders. We n I mean guys, this is All completely relevant. We never went off track. Never went off track. We don't go off tangents. We stay laser focused the whole time. Right here. That's a reformed corner guarantee. Guarantee. All right, let's keep going to the 45. 45. Okay, I'll read this one. Okay. my goodness. Be con t my god. Do you feel convicted about this next sentence? Be convict be contentious and zealous, brothers, about the things relating to salvation. You have looked into the holy scriptures, which are true. which were given by the Holy Spirit, you know that nothing unrighteous or falsified is written in them. You will not find that the righteous have been cast out by holy men, the righteous were persecuted, but by the lawless. They were imprisoned, but by the unholy, they were stoned by the lawless. They were killed by those who have taken to themselves abominable and unrighteous zeal. Suffering these things they endured gloriously. For what shall we say, brothers, that Daniel was thrown into the den of lions? by those who who feared God, Ananias, Azariah, and Bishael, were shut up inside the furnace of fire, by who those who ministered to the magnificent and glorious worship of the Most High. By no means may this be granted. Those therefore who those that who therefore were those who accomplished these things, the despicable ones, and full of all evil, were roused to such anger that those who served God with holy and unblemished purpose They tortured cruelly, not knowing that the most high is a defender and a protector of those who serve his most excellent name with a pure conscience, to whom be the glory forever, amen. But those who endured with confidence inherited glory and honor. They were both exalted and they were enrolled by God in his memorial forever. Amen. Amen. Amen. So yeah, so you should be contentious about some of this stuff. The things relating to salvation. One of the things I love about the verse too is that you have looked into the holy scriptures. He's not saying that, So actually, first off, they had holy scriptures at the end of the first century. Right. Right. Yeah. I mean you have the Old Testament. Obviously. And that but that is exactly what he's citing here. He is citing the Old Testament. but he I think he's also citing like stuff by Paul. Because you have Peter who's explicitly claims Paul's writings as scripture. And we are going to see later in this epistle, Clement cites the letter to the Corinthians that Paul wrote. when when Paul is talking about, you know, some say I follow Paul, some say I follow Apollos or Cephas. Clement cites that exact passage for their dissentiousness in the church. and he cites it as scripture. Yeah. So we have recognition of a maybe n we we obviously we don't know the canon that they had, but we have a distinct recognition of scriptures. Which were given by the Holy Spirit, not by the church, by the Holy Spirit. so and we know that there's nothing unrighteous or falsified within them. You know, we have the persepity of scripture and we also have the infallibility of scripture. The sorry, the inerrancy of scripture, I should say. So let's l quickly. Yeah. What's the difference between infallibility and inerrancy with scripture? So infallib infallibility would be it is incapable of producing error. Uh-huh. And then inerrancy would be that there is no errors contained within it. Right. so person I th I think all of the reformers hold this that in its in their original condition the scriptures were absolutely correct, but we recognize that through time and through stuff there are discrepancies that arise within manuscripts. And that's totally fine. Like I hate to like we have more than enough manuscripts to know what was on the originals. Yeah. And what's what's really fascinating, Ligonier, R R C Sprol, absolute champion defender of biblical inerrancy and biblical infallibility. In the Reformation Study Bible, it talks about passages in the Pentateuch that were edited. Mm because they changed like a the name of a city to be more understandable by people later. And so it's it's not like we're saying, by infallibility or inerrancy, that there's not been any edits made to the text of scripture over time. But what we are saying is that the originals, what God originally penned for the people, that is his word. That is he he penned it through prophets and apostles and he he did it perfectly and it has been transmitted with remarkable consistency and accuracy. Yeah, with faithfulness. You know, it's the I mean the beauty of us living in the twenty first century is that we have so many records of this. We know what went on, we know where manuscripts went because we can see the changes to it. Yeah. and it gives us a lot of confidence that what we have now, the great King James Bible, which is authorized and perfectly infallible. Gonna just attack the microphone. I know. Yep, the KJV. And so it c actually corrects the Greek amazingly. One hundred percent. No. Hey man. Amen. Amen, brother. Hulk Hogan or something? you have no idea. Never mind. It's Macho Man. That's what It's Macho Man, yeah. No, it's Well it's It's a thing through where I work currently, which I'm not gonna state because I'm not gonna dox myself like that. You know me better than that. but that is a whole thing of like hey brother. Welcome. Yeah. It's hilarious. It is actually really funny. where was I going? you were talking about how the King James is the inspired yes, the actual authentic, you know is delivered to King James on a silver platter from heaven. Two angels brought it. the most pious and righteous King James. The most pious rights never did anything wrong. Never did anything wrong, no. no I use the LSB Bible. Yeah. It is fantastic. Yeah that's the Lesbian Standard Bible. Lesbian Standard Bible. It's the official standard of the PC USA Bible. The PC USA Bible. no it's it's phenomenal. it's very authentic to the Hebrew, to the Greek, and it uses the name of God Yahweh, which I appreciate. Yeah. Because it helps us to see the persons of God, you know, working through history. The King James sometimes says Jehovah. Yeah, Adunai Yahweh from the what is that like twelfth century or whatever. Yeah. That monk that got it wrong. Or did he get it right? Or did he get it right? I will say this, Jehovah it sings a lot better than Yahweh. 'cause you got three syllables. You do have three syllables. anyway, so yeah, we were talking about how there was scripture, understood to be scripture by here by Clement. and then also you were jumping on that part where he says be contentious and zealous yes about things relating to salvation. Now I I try to be more relaxed, laid back, chill. Right? You know, I yeah. If I if I were to pick a character from Lord of the Rings that I want to emulate, it's gonna be a hobbit, right? We are hobbit maxing here at the Reform Corner. We are going to be trying to live a simple, quiet, slow life. But there are some things that Do you forget the Tukes who created golfing? Yes. I the the took created g golfing by it was Bull Roar cut the head off the Great Goblin. Yes. Yes. Sometimes you have to be a Hobbit who cuts heads off. Right. And what the hobbits learn in their journeys, this is why Tolkien said if you don't include the scouring of the Shire in any adaptation, you have missed the point of the Lord of the Rings. It's one of the reasons why the Peter Jackson films Missed the Point of the Lord. Missed the point. They could be so much better, but they cut the scouring of the Shire. But Tolkien says, What they learn on their journey, they're supposed to bring home with them. Mm-hmm. And then they see when they get home, the Shire is completely taken over by Sauron Sauron, rather, and the bandits, and they need to take it back. They need to save everything they love, everything they fought for because foreigners have come in and taken it over. Lamentations five, my friends. Lamentations five, relevant to today. very and so th the their journey, their adventure, changed them fundamentally who they are and it made them contentious and zealous for the things that truly mattered. I have a question. Who do you think was more evil in the Lord of the Rings? Sauron or Saurman? I mean Sauron is evil. Like he's the embodiment of evil. He is the Dark Lord. Sauruman is a traitor. But I mean so is Sauron too. Yes. Sauron was a I think a Gonna lose my cred. I'm gonna say Myar. But Saur Sauron does it according to his nature. Sauron changes his nature. Right. Well, that is tricky, because like if if you take it to you know biblical anthropology, Satan was in his original creation, his nature was very good. He changes his nature. Yes. Sauron two was created good, just as Melkor was also created good. So I I would say that yeah, even what you say of there of Sauron is still true of Sauron. Yes. But in the story. Saur you know Sauron's already the dark lord. So I don't know. I mean there's a special place in hell for traitors. Yes. And they're both traitors. They are both traders. I I guess they'll be side by side, you know? Yeah. what is it, the ninth level of hell? I think so. Yeah. Yeah. My goodness. I can't remember where Muhammad was, but I think he might have been in the ninth. I don't think he was quite that low because I remember you sending it to me. I like, Yeah, he needs to he needs to be dropped down a little bit further. But he's like cut in half per f Yeah, he's he's not having a good time. But yeah, if any of you guys are wondering about Islam, go read sixty five four the Quran sixty five four and then read the tafsirs said about it. Because it talks about the it's or the waiting period of women if they're going to remarry. And it has three it has those who have menstruated, those who are currently pregnant, and those who have not yet menstruated. Speaking of the young. straight from the mouth of Muhammad. And so hell has a little Talmudic too. a little bit, a little bit. almost like Same come from the same source. Hmm. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Anyway. Anyway. anything anything else there on forty-five you wanted to address before we keep going? You can have confidence in God, you know, if you serve him well. you know, the the service we render to God is proof of our justification. Yeah. So. And I think he says to be contentious and zealous for things relating to salvation. And then he talks about how those who were persecuted were persecuted by unrighteous men. And then with this backdrop of the unrighteous persecuting the righteous, we then jump into the schism in Corinth itself. And it's a long chapter. I'm I don't think we need to read the whole thing. just kinda more focus there On let's go with verse four. He says, therefore let us cling to the innocent and the righteous, as these are the elect of God. Why is there strife and anger and dissension and division and war among you? And there's a great little footnote here about how it it increases in what's the word I'm looking for? It the words are arranged in ascending scale, so it goes from strife to Take it up a notch to anger, then dissension, and then division. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Yeah, it leads to suffering. Mm-hmm. Suffering. Anyway, why is there strife and anger and dissension and division and war among you? Or do we not have one God and one Christ and one spirit of grace which is poured out upon us and one calling in Christ? Why do we tear and rip apart the members of Christ and rebel against our own body and get worked up to such a frenzy that we forget that we are members of one another? Remember the words of the Lord Jesus, for it says, Woe to that person, it would be better for him if he had not been born than to cause one of my elect to sin. It would have been better for him to be tied to a millstone and to sink into the sea than to turn away one of my elect. Your schism is has turned away, has turned many away, has plunged many into discouragement, many into doubt, all of us into grief. Yet your rebellion is continuous. So he does not like schismatics. He does not like schismatics. What is schism, Eli? schism is a unrighteous breaking of the body of Christ. Mm-hmm. So this can happen people say in a positive way or a negative way. So a positive separation would be me saying, I don't like you anymore, so I'm going to leave. And a negative separation would be you would be you saying I don't like you and I push you away. so there is a righteous way to do it and an unrighteous way to do it. if you see true if you see the death of an institution or you see unrepentant sin. I mean c Christ commands us to put that aw away from us. But if we don't if that is not possible, say there is more sinners than you and you cannot push them out of the institution. It is perfectly valid for you to leave. Yeah. and that would be a positive separation. That would be positive separation. Yeah. a negative separation would be like what the reformers did to what Rome did to the reformers, right? They just excommunicated them. And we would see that as an unjust excommunication. There are justified excommunications. Absolutely. Yeah. but an unjust excommunication does not put Outside the body of Christ. the question is, was it just or not? And in all situations where that may be a question, you should look to the elders of your church. Hopefully they've been in great communication with you. if it's not a And should have like biblical basis, you know. An example would be adultery. You know, someone in unrepentant, open adultery, mm-hmm and then they're excommunicated from the body for refusing to submit to the elders of the church. They're being and it's funny you bring that one up specifically because that is what happened in first Corinthians five. Yeah. it's almost like a planned that. Yeah. Is that where you were actually gonna go? No. Okay. I thought about it. Well well, first Corinthians five, Clement is writing to the Corinthians, and so schism is a big thing that The Corinthian church is dealing with. I wanted to touch a little bit on some of these these passages I I found in Scripture actually telling us what schism is and when to make it. so first up we have Romans sixteen, seventeen. Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned, and avoid them. So those who are causing division are not the people leaving. Not those aren't the ones in schism. The ones in schism are the ones teaching things contrary, teaching false doctrine. Which is why I think we can say we should be able to make a separation, a a break from the PCUSA, because it's been overwhelmed with false doctrine and false teaching. And then also first Corinthians five, nine through thirteen. which is that passage that we were just talking about. He says, I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators, yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous or extortioners, or with idolaters, for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner, with such an one know not to eat. For what have I to ju what have I to do to judge them also that are without? Do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth, therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. And so here we see another, a break of communion, a break of fellowship for a false teacher within the church. In this instance, you're kicking them out. This is that excommunication part. I I would also like to point out that early in the church it's all house churches. And so it's not something where it's you know, we don't have these large institutions. It's they're fairly small for a lot of it. I mean obviously the church does grow v exponentially very quickly. But if we're dealing with these smaller instances where you're you know, just excommunicating or removing someone from the house church, it's it's not as well it's not as big of a deal as like the OPC, you know, separating themselves from the PCUSA or like the PCA. And I think it also matters that like do you have majority? Does your side have majority? Yeah. If you don't Are you obligated to stay fellowshipping, communing, and eating with the false teachers, the false brethren? I mean, Paul said don't eat with such a one. Don't have communion with such a one. Yeah. And so if you're in a church that is a heretical apostate church, it's it is incumbent on you to leave it. Yeah. And this is I mean, this kind of ties into like why I'm a part of like the CREC versus like the PCA. Is because it's a it's a Presbytery that I feel like I can submit to, because I believe in paydo communion. I'm unique amongst the Presbyterians in that. Yeah. I don't feel like I could submit to a PCA that doesn't believe in that. I see it as apostolic. I see it as the early church. Or is it the early church and it's also like even Calvin admits it's the early church. Yes. Even Calvin does. And I I just see it as like that's what would happen in the in like the Bible. Like you when someone is a baptized member of the church, they receive communion. Yeah. you do not take you know, if your kids ask for Well what is it? If your brother asks for bread, you do not give him a stone. Right. you have these children who Christ brought up and said, you know, let the little children come to me and you're divorcing them from the table. Mm-hmm. Christ has called all. He's called the baptized members to feast at his table. He's called them to himself. And so let's all go to the table, right? We see in in Exodus when God calls Israel out, Exodus five, one, he calls them out so that they may hold a feast unto the Lord. And then Pharaoh says later, Why don't you just leave your kids behind? And Moses says, No, we will take our kids with us, because we are all going to worship the Lord. Yes. so even from the very beginning God has been wanting to feast with us and our children. Yes. Thank you. Yeah, worked worked worked hard on that one. Yeah. Glad you liked it. next I have Second Thessalonians three, six. Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he hath received of us. And verse fourteen. And if any man obey Not our word by this epistle, note that man and have no company with him that he may be ashamed. And so here we're commanded, don't just seek to keep the institution, but withdraw yourself from the false brethren. I love that we didn't really intend on ty taking on Zumber tonight, but it seems to be getting into it. It's relevant. It's in the past. It is incredibly relevant. Also, Richard, we appreciate what you're trying to do. Don't think that you should call us sinners when we are just doing we we are obeying our conscience. So and then next this isn't this obviously is not scripture, but Belgic Confession. Yeah. Articles twenty-seven through twenty-nine clearly talk about the the Holy Catholic Church, what it is, every Christian's duty to join it, and what do you do if you find yourself not part of it. so Article twenty-seven of the Belgian Confession says, We believe and profess one Catholic or universal church, which is a holy congregation and assembly of the true Christian believers who expect their entire salvation in Jesus Christ, are washed by his blood and sanctified and sealed by the Holy Spirit. This church has existed from the beginning of the world, Covenant theology, and will be to the end, for Christ is an eternal king who cannot be without subjects. This holy church is preserved by God against the fury of the whole world. Although for a while it may look very small and as extinct in the eyes of men. Thus, during the perilous reign of Ahab the Lord kept for himself seven thousand persons who had not bowed their knees to Baal. Moreover, this holy church is not confined or limited to one particular place or to certain persons, but is spread and dispersed throughout the entire world. Yet it is joined and united with heart and will in one and the same spirit by the power of faith. And then Article twenty eight everyone's duty to join the church. We believe, since this holy assembly and congregation is the assembly of the redeemed, and there is no salvation outside of it, that's an important thing to note, that no one ought to withdraw from it, content to be by himself, no matter what his status or standing may be, but all and everyone are obliged to join it and unite with it, maintaining the unity of the church. So if Redeem Zumer is right that the PCUSA is the one true church. It is our duty and obligation, because there is no salvation outside of the one true church, to join the PCUSA. They must submit themselves to its instruction and discipline. Can you actually do that in the PCUSA? Can you rightfully submit yourself to its discipline and instruction? I think obviously not. They must bend their necks under the yoke of Jesus Christ and serve the edification of the brothers and sisters according to the talents which God has given them as members of the same body. To observe this more effectively, it is the duty of all believers, according to the Word of God, to separate from those who do not belong to the Church. That is our claim. The PCUSA generally does not belong to the Church. We are to separate ourselves from those who do not belong to the Church, and to join this assembly wherever God has established it. They should do so, even though rulers and edicts of princes were against it, and death or physical punishment might follow. And all therefore who draw away from the church or fail to join it, act contrary to the ordinance of God. Yeah. Now there's one more article I'm gonna read. It's it's the longest one yet. So if you have any twenty nine? It's twenty nine. If you have any comments before we get to it. I would I'm gonna keep my comments for twenty nine. Okay. Twenty nine is the marks of the true church and the false church. let's see. So Article twenty seven, mm-hmm. We believe in a in a holy Catholic Church. Article twenty eight, everyone is obligated to join it. Article twenty nine tells us how do we find it? How do we know which church is the true church? I remember what I was gonna say. So the if we believe that the PC USA is the one true church, then all should be part of it, which the to me the PC USA has completely disregarded because they they have they're in communion with all the other major branches of Protestantism. If the PC USA is the one true church with the same arc, you know, the arc metaphor that like the Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholics like to use, then we should be then the active path should be to bring all of them under the PC USA and not just that, but we should be seeking to make it the religion of the state. Yep. Which a lot of the monarchists from like the Westminster era were seeking to do. But the I need to go read it. I remember Hen He Hennies or however you say his name, OPC guy. He brought it up. was this the guy that just did the debate with Zoomer? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Very interesting guy. I love his youth YouTube channel, Ancient Saints. It's great. but one of the things he brought up was that the PCUSA explicitly denied that in their first general assembly in the America. Which is very interesting. They're trying to have a one true church claim with a church that denies that they're the one true church. Yeah. Yeah. It just doesn't work. so continuing with Article twenty nine of the Belgian Confession, the marks of the true and the false church. We believe that we ought to discern diligently and very carefully from the Word of God what is the true church, for all sects which are in the world today claim for themselves the name of the church. We are not speaking here of the hypocrites who are mixed in the church along with the good, and yet are not part of the church, although they are outwardly in it. We are speaking of the body and the communion of the true church which much must be distinguished from all sects that call themselves the church. The true church is to be recognized by the following marks. It practices the pure preaching of the gospel, it maintains the pure administration of the sacraments as Christ instituted them, it exercises church discipline for correcting and punishing sins. In short, it governs itself according to the pure word of God, rejecting all things contrary to it and regarding Jesus Christ as the only head. Hereby the true church can be certainly known, and no one has a right to separate from it. Those who are of the church may be recognized by the marks of Christians. They believe in Jesus Christ the only, flee from sin and pursue righteousness, love the true God and their neighbor without turning to the right or left, and crucify their flesh and its works. Although great weakness remains in them, they fight against it by the Spirit all the days of their life. They appeal constantly to the blood, suffering, death, and obedience of Jesus Christ in whom they have forgiveness of their sins through faith in him. The false church assigns more authority to itself than and its ordinances than to the word of God. It does not want to submit itself to the yoke of Christ, it does not administer the sacraments as Christ commanded in his word, but adds to them and subtracts from them as it pleases. It bases itself more on men than on Jesus Christ. It pursu persecutes those who live holy lives according to the Word of God, and re and who rebuke the false church for its sins, greed, and idolatries. These two churches are easily recognized and distinguished from each other. So To me, if you have a general assembly and you have a Muslim pray over it, mm-hmm that does not seem like a true church to me. That's not submitting to Jesus Christ. No. That is tolerating a false religion and anti Christ faith coming into the church. and The way that that Zoomer talks to people who are outside of the PC USA, he is persecuting those who live holy lives according to the Word of God. And those who rebuke the false church for its sins, greed, and idolatries. That's what, you know, Matthew Everhart's doing all the time when he talks against the PC USA. This OPC guy who just debated him, he's calling out the false church for its sins, greeds, and idolatries. Yes. And something I find interesting is that it recognizes that there is the true body of believers. but we are speaking of distinguishing the body and the fellowship of the true church from all sects that call themselves the church. you know, you can have true churches in the PC USA who do all of these things. Yep. Absolutely. but you should not be calling other churches to submit themselves to what they see as an evil institution. I mean the PCUSA openly approves of transgenderism, sexual degeneracy, approves of abortion. They pay for it. allegedly. I'm gonna throw that in there. you know, at least at least they promote it. Yeah. but they got female pastors, they got gay pastors. Yeah. The whole gambit of of false teachings and and sinful practices. And I I know that z you know, Richard understands this. That's why the Reconquista movement is a thing. but you should not ask people to bind their consciences to sin. Right. And something that I think he needs to be focusing on more. Stop calling out those who you deem schismatic. Call out the sins in your own denomination. Yeah. And I know he is doing that with his Presbyterians for the Kingdom. I know he is actively fighting it from within. But to all those onlookers outside of the PC USA, it looks like his his targets completely a his sights are completely aimed at the PCA, the C R E C, the OPC. Yeah, it's he is it what it feels like from the outside is that you're yelling at all the people around to step in When we honestly we don't see the fruits of it yet. Yeah. We don't. We have we have no proof that what he's doing is is working or going to work. especially when, like I stated earlier, like you officially recognize women's ordination. Mm-hmm. Like that's a big issue. And he even had at at his conference, his Presbyterians for the Kingdom conference, the conservative sect of the PC USA had a lady pastor speaking at it. Yeah. To me that's a big issue. Mm-hmm. That's a big issue. Because you are saying yes to sin. It is a sin. And not just to you, to pretty much every conservative Christian and the Scots Confession. Yes. and to Paul. I mean, Paul says specifically that they have to be, you know, the husband of one wife. You have to be a husband, which means you have to be a man. So it's like, okay, don't bind sin on another person. Yeah. Okay, we see it as sin to submit ourselves to this organization. Okay, you can make all the arguments you want about whether or not your denomination has a right to exist. It's the same kind of logic that the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics use about icon veneration. Right? We Presbyterians view icon veneration as a violation of the second commandment and they're saying, Well, the seventh ecumenical council, I see it too, says you must Bow the knee to the i you must kiss the icon. Yeah, and so you know, we're not gonna bind ourselves to something we see as anti scriptural. We're not gonna bind ourselves to an institution or to a council that we see as heretical. Mm-hmm. so that I mean I guess that's what it boils down to. what segue do we have? So just as we can't bind ourselves to the sinful con conscience, we also can't be saying our salvation is bound up in following the PCOSA. Just as he says here in chapter forty seven, citing First Corinthians three, when Paul says, I follow Paul, I follow Cephas, I follow Apollos, right? You see where you see where I was going Because even then you had engaged in partisan strife. Amazing. Yep. It's recognized back then that some people were going after the names of the institutions, but not the God that is being served. And that was what it said there in the Belgian Confession. They put more hope in men than in Jesus Christ. Yes. Yes. So why why don't we read chapter forty seven? You know, since we're here. Go for Take up the letter of the blessed Paul the Apostle. But what first did he write to you at the beginning of his gospel? Truthfully, he wrote to you in the spirit about himself and Cephas and Apollos, because even then you had engaged in partisan strife. But that partisanship brought less sin to you, for you had joined with the reputable apostles and with a man approved by them. But now consider who has perverted you and has lessened the respect due to your well known love for your fellow believers. It is shameful, beloved, extremely shameful and unworthy of your conduct in Christ, that it should be reported that the well established and ancient church of the Corinthians, because of one or two people, is rebelling against the presbyters. And this report has reached not only to us, but even to those who have different allegiances from us, so that even blessed blasphemies are brought upon the name of the Lord because of your foolishness, and you cause danger for yourselves. Therefore I'm just going to read forty-eight. Okay. therefore, let us remove this quickly, and let us fall down before the Master and let us weep, imploring him that he may be merciful and may be reconciled to us and restore us to the honorable, pure way of life, and our love for fellow believers. For this gate of righteousness opens to life, just as it is written, Open to me the gates of righteousness, and that entering into them I may praise the Lord. This is the gate of the Lord. The righteous will enter into it. Therefore, though many gates are open, the one opened in righteousness, this one is the one opened in Christ, in which are all in which are blessed all who enter. Don't even have whiskey tonight. I know, I know. I got coffee and You should be going just fine. No. yeah. I've been up since very early this morning. Then you're gonna get up early tomorrow. I'm gonna get up early tomorrow. Yes, and it's okay. in which are blessed all who enter and direct their course in holiness and righteousness, accomplishing everything without confusion. Let one be faithful, let him be able to express knowledge, let him be wise in the discernment of words, let him be pure in deeds, for to the degree he seems to be even greater. He ought to be more humble minded and seek the common good of all, and not his own. couple things in here. In the reconciliation, we need to be honorable. We need to be living the pure life, which he talks about earlier. and what is what is that? I think it's chapter what like twenty-eight. that's resurrection. but he talks about what what good examples we have of the faith and how we should be living. And so when we're trying to reconcile these schisms, these issues, we need to be doing it in the way Christ did it, which is, you know, occasionally hitting people over the head. but we should be doing it in humility. Right. And to me that would be my greatest critique for Richard and is that every time he talks about this, it is it comes from a place of it feels, maybe it's not intended this way. It feels like it comes from place of arrogance. Mm-hmm. When we are trying to faithfully live out the gospel, live the way that we see that Christ has prescribed, we are being told that no, we have to join an institution, because that institution is the only institution. when it's not. Right. Christ can raise up from these stones sons of Abraham. Christ can raise up raise up institutions from stones. Mm-hmm. Hate to break it to you. But Gavin Ortland was absolutely correct in that it is better to worship in a sewer than in a cathedral. Mm-hmm. Was it Galatians six one? let me pull it up in the correct translation. The are you gonna didn't pull it up in the N K J V, right? no, no, no, no. The the good old authorized King James, he says, Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness, considering thyself lest thou also be tempted. Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. For if a man think himself to be something when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself, but let every man prove his own work, and then he shall have rejoicing in himself, and not in another. So if you are trying to return institutions, it should be done in the spirit of meekness. Yep, in meekness. restore the brothers caught in sin in a spirit of meekness, gentleness, as Christ did. Right? Matthew eleven, come to me all who are weary and heavy laden. I will give you rest for I am gentle and lowly in heart. ESV, not King James, but that's the one. I memorized it in ESV. But You need some more these and thous in there. That's right. and the S. Gotta gotta end up. S. Yes. But anyway, he so he he's he's saying correct your brothers in gentleness, in meekness. And so in as You're trying to duck on dunk on OPC press pastors does not feel like the right way to do it. Yeah. And I mean the the culture we're in today with, you know, rage bait, clickbait, sound bites that like that that is descriptive of The way we do cultural engagements. absolutely. Debates. Debates, as I was saying earlier, are just personality contests where you're just seeking for a sound bite to use as for to clip as your real. Well, that was one of the things that really disappointed me in like the comments is there was a comment that's like, There are so many clips in this. Mm-hmm. Like, that's not the point. Right. No, the point is to be seeking in love. What is the right option here? Yeah. And not what's the way that Christ has commanded us? Yeah. And not turning your brother into a laughing stock. No. And like going back to the stuff Jay Dyer does, that is h his entire shtick. Yes. All he does is try to make other people look like idiots and look like fools. And collect money off of that. And collect money off that. Yeah. And that's not Christ like. That's not how Christ engaged with his opponents. He engaged with the Pharisees in a very biting and zealous manner, but he did not engage with people who either are just ignorant or caught in Habitual sin, th those kinds of people he was much more gentle with. And I think that's that's advice that we we would like to pass on to Zoomer. Be more into everyone. Right. It's not just Zoomer. Like we s again, we love the guy, but it's not just him. there are there are gonna be lots of people in your own life that are going to need correction or you are going to be needing correction yourself. And so bring that to them in a spirit of meekness. That will be much better received. Yeah. Right? Proverbs talks about a word spoken in season, seasonably or or fitly spoken. say your criticism with gentleness, you're gonna have a much better reception from the person you have to c correct. Yeah, and there's there's a right way to do it. it's like the right way to ask for forgiveness. You know, which we we've talked about at great length because check it out, we are all sinners and right here I need to ask for forgiveness more I've a need to ask for it more than once. And so there's a right way to do it. our buddy Josiah actually gave us a good formula for it. Yep. you need to recognize the sin. you need to well I guess we should define sin is not just between you and another person. Right. But because they are the image of God. It is a sin against God as well. So you have to state the sin. So, hey Quentin, I'm sorry, I sinned against you in anger. I and then you have to describe what this sin was 'cause you know, say, I'm sorry, what for? That doesn't do anything. You're not identifying the sin, you're not identifying how it occurred. 'Cause that's good for you as well. You need to know how you sin. Quentin, I sinned against you in anger. the other day when you didn't let me borrow that pipe. I not I was not just angry at the situation, I was angry at you. Right. And for that I ask for your forgiveness. And that's something you need to do. You need to actually ask for forgiveness. and then as a Christian, because we're mostly talking to Christians here, you are required to forgive. You are not re you should not Ask for a restitution as a qualification of forgiveness. no, God has forgiven you and so you need to forgive. Yeah. I mean do we not remember Christ saying, It is finished. It is finished. Do we forget that Jesus paid it all? Yes. He paid it all. he paid for our sin against God and he paid for our sin against one another. Not to say that there's not civil restitution or criminal restitution when crimes are committed. But we shouldn't be seeking justice for ourselves. No justice is mine, saith the Lord. Right. There you go. Sayeth. Sayeth. It's it's innate in us. It is innate. that's one of the things I love about the the KJV is that it's it's linguistically beautiful. It's just beautiful. As human beings we latch on to beauty, aesthetic beauty, and the one of the reasons why I prefer the King James. It is not the only translation I read or use, but it is my preference because it is so beautiful. Yes. so as Christians we need to say, Yes, I forgive you for for your sin of anger. And then once that's done, congratulations, it is finished. You cannot bring that up again. Quinton cannot come up to me again and say, Hey look, dude, that was really crappy what you did with my pipe the other day. Yeah. once it's forgiven, it's done. Yeah. It's absolutely done. That's why he's the accuser of the brethren. Yes. And if you ha and if you're having a hard time saying, Yes, I forgive you It is okay to say, I forgive you. My heart is having a hard time dealing with this. Yes. let's pray that God will soften my heart. and leave it at that. And there may be times when s you know Maybe it's not received well. Yeah. But it gives us the Bible gives us a prescription for that. Bring it, you know, hey me one or two others and bring it before the elders of the church. Hard heartedness is not a Christian virtue. No, no. And the other way, if your brother comes to you and says, Hey, I see this in you, I think this is a s I see this sin in you, you need to take that, not just with a grain of salt, but with sober mindedness, you know. search it out. Find out is this true. Is this true? And if you're having trouble with it, maybe grab another guy. Yeah. You know, say, hey, Quentin brought this to me. He says that I'm angry that he doesn't allow me to use his pipe sometimes. this is this true. This has never happened. This has never happened, actually. You know, I just bring it up 'cause hey, we're we're smoking, we're enjoying the time. No, Quinton's actually been really generous with letting me use the stuff that he has around here 'cause it's he's got cool stuff, you know. but you know, he comes to me and says, Hey, you have a sin here. It's like, I don't see that as a sin right now. Okay, well what what do you do? You search it out. Search it out. You look in scripture, you talk to the man you're talking to, you talk to other men, and you find out, is there merit to this accusation? Yes. Is this true? Am I guilty of sin? Yeah, and maybe you don't know maybe you're like, I really don't see it. I really don't see it. So you bring it to the elders of your church. And they should be men of upright character, husbands of one wife, and They will be able to help you. Right. And you should submit to their findings. If they say, Yes, this is a sin. And you need to say, Okay, God help me. Yeah. And submission to the elders brings us back to Clement. he says there But that partisanship brought less sin to you, for you joined with r reputable apostles and with men approved by them. He's saying partisanship is a sin, right? Because even then you had engaged in partisan strife. What does that say about denominations as they exist? And what does that say about non-denominationalism? that's a great question. So let's start with the first one. What what does partisan strife say about denominations existing? So I mean Christ prays that we all are one body. this is one of the reasons I like branch theory, is because it allows and I actually I see this as like some good things about like the Roman Catholics is that there is a wide tent for them. But they're united on one thing and for the Rome and for Rome it's the Pope. Right. 'cause they follow Cephas. Yes, they do follow Cephas. Which says that's not that's not where unity is found. No, no. Unity is found only in Christ. Right. but we we've actually had this conversation before. It's like what what does division actually mean? Can we have disagreements and still unity and harmony. Answer's yes. Yeah. and this is where like Gavin Ortland's good discussion of his my goodness, it's blanking on me, but his hierarchy, you know. Triage? Triage, a theological triage I think comes in really handy here. there are primary issues. You know, Trinity. Paul talks about this. I delivered you what was of first importance that Christ died according to the scriptures, was raised according to the scriptures. So even Paul sets parameters for what's of first importance. And then from there we can extrapolate what's second and third. Yeah. And so like primary issues would be you know, Jesus Christ, his divinity, like the Trinity. How do we understand God? secondary issues would break us into denominations. you know, like, hey, should we baptize infants? To me that's a huge deal. That's not a tertiary issue. That's whether or not my kids are part of cr Christ Christ's body. Yeah. Are they Christians? Are they Christians or are they not? Yeah. then you have things like super lapsarian or infralapsarian. Mm-hmm. Is it does it really matter? I personally I say no. Yeah. I know someone is gonna get on the comments and be like, you have to be an for lapser in order to be a Christian. It's like, no, you don't. Well in a our trust is in Christ. A common one today would just simply be Calvinist versus Arminian. Yeah. that's a huge dividing issue for so many Christians. Mm-hmm. Should it be? This one's hard. It's so yes, I b obviously we're reformed Christians. We believe that Calv the Calvinist soteriology is the way to understand it. Right. But if our trust is in Christ, you know, salvation is not a theological test. Right. Is your trust in Christ? Do you claim him and his covenants? Mm-hmm. And and what Clement is talking about is the way that onlookers will see this division. And think that Christ is fractional. Dude, this is the whole like Muslims argue about that argue with Christians about this. Look, you have forty thousand denominations you could do the same thing with like Mormons. Look, there's no way that Christians can you know, the Christian church can be correct because look at you, you have so many den denominations. Right. Obviously the forty thousand denominations is an absolute straw man there. but like I get it. Like there is a real sense in which we need to bow in sackcloth and ashes and beg for forgiveness for our divisions. Yeah, it is it is not good that there are so many denominations of Christianity. They're necessary, but that's because of our sin. Denominations are necessary because we're constantly trying to bind Our brothers' consciences. Yes. That's why denominations exist. And that's not to say that there aren't places where you should bind consciousness. I think this is where like Westminster is incredibly helpful. You know, you know, scripture is the thing that of itself can bind a conscience. Right. but you also have like good and necessary principles drawn out from scripture. You know, we don't have anywhere explicitly in scripture that women are communed. You know, we don't have them partaking of the the body and blood of Christ. Right. But we also can see that there is no neither Jew nor Greek or male and female in Christ. And so we can see that all all baptized members receive communion. And so because women are baptized members and in the body of Christ there is no distinction Right. They are welcome to the table. Mm-hmm. so getting back to denominationalism, it's like, yes, it exists because of our sin, but we should find unity in Christ. This is something that I really like about the Protestant faith is that all of the major Protestant branches are in communion with each other. We all understand that maybe we have different ways of understanding Christ. But we're all agreed on the essentials. Yeah. I think the Lutherans are the ones that are L CMS. Yeah. They're the ones that are the most like we actually can't take communion with you because you don't believe in our understanding of of the real presence of Christ. And this is that's you know, that's where you get to can you bind another person person's conscience? No, no, that's not your job. You know, we're Reformed Christians. We believe that Christ regenerates the spirit. and so We should allow for Christ to work within his body, within his bride, and to give us understanding as we see fit. I don't know, maybe in two years I'll be on Richard's side, you know, mm-hmm govern you know, being gunhoe for the P PC USA. Yeah. But that's something that we should leave to God and not yell about over YouTube videos. Right, because it does make the church look more fractured. It looks awful. Yeah. It's a it really does look awful. It's a really bad look for the church. so then what about non denominationalism? I have an issue with non denominationalism because you don't have anybody to submit to. Yeah. I think the idea is we don't want to be partisan. We want to be saying we agree in the essentials. But in being nonpartisan, you reject all of the visible unity. Right. and there is something to be said about visible unity within the church. It is a good thing for someone to look at the street corner and say, that's a Christian church. that's a Christian church. But we shouldn't sacrifice you know, the clear teaching of scripture for that. Right. That's why you can't, you know, go to a church that blesses a dog. That's right. so then continuing there on verse six he says, It is shameful, beloved beloved. This is again in chapter forty seven. It is shameful, beloved, extremely shameful, and unworthy of your conduct in Christ, that it should be reported that the well established and ancient church of the Corinthians, because of one or two people, is rebelling against the presbyters. We finally made it. We finally made it to the the submitting to your elders thing. first thing note rebelling against the presbyters. Not the bishop. The presbyters. once again we are going to get into the discussion of like, well, the apostles set up a presbytery. Mm-hmm. That's what existed. Yeah. And we see, you know, like Jerome says, that the due to issues of unity, the presbyters elected a singular bishop to be united around in the you know, for the local church. Right. And I would say that that is what Paul condemns in First Corinthians three. That's what Clement is condemning here also in chapter forty seven. finding institutional unity unity in a man is not the way that God is d desiring unity in his church. but yeah, so they are because of one or two people they are chapter forty four says it, you know, the apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ there'd be strife concerning the title of bishop. Yep. You know, and that's what we see. Yeah. And Paul says to Timothy that he received the gift, the gift of his presbytery ship, through the laying on of hands of the presbyters. Yes. That's first Timothy three I'll find it. I'll find it at some point. I mentioned it last last time we talked, as well. but the it's through the laying ho laying on of hands of the presbyters, because the office is Elder Bishop. And then the second office of deacon. There's two offices, elder bishop, deacon. Mm-hmm. And this also means that you can't just go start your own church. Right. which you shouldn't do, first off, because it's just unwise. I guarantee that you do not know enough stuff to start a church. Right. and and so like independent churches ought to be either banding together to form a denomination. Or ideally they should be moving to underneath an already existing. better approach. Yeah, because I I mean what you see is individual churches have individual heresies. And there's no oversight to condemn it, to to exhibit the tr marks of a true church, you know, to put all things right. so if you're in one of those positions where you you're leading a church and you don't have anyone you know don't have a presbytery to submit to, you don't have a if you're in if you're a non denominational church, I'll even say you should be you should even join like an episcopal church or a synodal church because it is good to be united to the brethren. Right. well, so this is is an interesting thing 'cause we are members of the CREC. Yeah. its initial founding was three non denomin ev independent evangelical churches banded together to form another denomination. Yes. Since then, other churches from other denominations like the PCA and the OPC have joined the CREC. So are we just hypocrites then? to some ex Yes and no. Yeah. this this is one of those things where it's like, Okay, I see God working in this because we have a presbytery that allows paydo communion. Mm-hmm. That is a good thing. Yeah. And it's one of those things where these three independent churches, no other denominations are gonna take them. No. So what else are they gonna do? Yeah. So it's like it's is not near necessarily a good option there. You know, do I think it would have been great for you know, Christ Church Moscow, you know, to join the PCA. Probably. Would have been that would have been the That would have been the right to me that would have been the best thing to do. Yeah. But they couldn't. They couldn't. So now we're in a position where the CREC has grown. you know, like I said at the beginning, I submit to the CREC because of pay-to-communion. Yeah. is it something that any other you know, there's no other Presbyterian church out there that allows payto communion. I'd be interested to see if the PC USA would kick someone out for that. They would only kick someone out if they actually believe in God. Yeah, that that's true. Yeah. Unfortunately. I I can imagine where Team Zubers comment's gonna be like a dozen paragraphs on here. Yeah. But it's we're in a position now where the CREC has grown in position and also just I mean there's thousands of members to it. I see it as a good thing that we have a Presbyterian church that ha allows for a little more openness to it. Yeah. than like the PCA. Because the PCA does not commune children. Right. Yeah. I I agree. I just gotta note my battery is dying, so let's hurry up. My goodness, we've only gotten through four freaking yeah, we've only gotten through four. Let's try to get at least to fifty and then next time we get together we will finish it out. Our intention, our plan was to do the rest of Clement. We have talked about only Clement. yes, and then Only Clement. And then there has been an hour and a half's worth of content to talk about this whole time. Yes. in just Clement. So chapter forty nine he says the one who has the has love in Christ, he should do the commandments of Christ. Who is able to explain the bond of the love of God? Who can sufficiently express the greatness of its beauty? The height to which love leads is indescribable. Love unites with God. Love covers up a multitude of sins. Love bears all things, is patient in all things. There is nothing vulgar, nothing arrogant in love. Love does not have schism. Love does not rebel. Love does all things in harmony. All of the elect were made perfect in love. Apart from love, nothing is pleasing to God. The master has received us in love with Because of the love that he had for us, he gave his blood for us, Jesus Christ our Lord, by the will of God, and his flesh for our flesh, his life for our lives. Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful way to put it. To talk about the atonement of Christ, his life for our life, his flesh for our flesh, his substitution. And it's all done in indescribable love. And it's important to note there that he is. Clearly citing First Corinthians thirteen. Love hopes all things, believes all things, bears all things, is patient in all things. And this is coming on the back of chapter forty eight, but also forty seven, where they are rebelling against the church leaders, the presbyters, in the church in Corinth, and Paul is saying, This is unloving, not submitting to your elders. Part of the reason, o aside from the insubordination of it, the bucking against the hierarchy that God has established, part of it is Pride, arrogance, self inflation, and there is no love. When you do not submit to your elders, you are failing in love. Because it's showing not just your it's showing love of self over love for God because God has instituted the proper way to organize a church. Exactly. Exactly. chapter fifty is it's a longer one, so I'm gonna go skip to verse four. He says, For it is written, Enter into the inner rooms for a very short while until my anger and wrath pass away, and I will remember a good day and will rise raise you up out of your grave. Beloved, we are blessed if we carry out the commandments of God in harmony of love, so that our sins may be forgiven through love. For it is written, Blessed are those whose trespasses are forgiven and whose sins are covered up. Blessed is the one blessed is the one the sin of whom the Lord does not take into account, and in his mouth. There is no deceit. And obviously obviously there he is citing Psalm thirty-two. Also Romans. And Romans. which Romans is citing Psalm thirty-two. but he says, The blessing was given to us who have been chosen by God through Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom be glory forever. Amen. So love covers a multitude of sins. We know this from other passages in Scripture, but also carry out the commandments of love in Of God in the harmony of love, so that our sins may be forgiven through love. In our last episode, we were bullish on the idea that Clement is proving sola fide. We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone. Here he says our sins may be forgiven through love. Is he contradicting himself? I would say absolutely not, because regeneration produces Love produces charity. this is why you'll see I mean the reformers are do dogged about this, that it's you know, faith by faith alone that we are united to Christ, but faith is never alone. Yeah. faith will always be accompanied by specific virtues. you know, you'll see charity, you'll see obviously love, you'll see the beatitudes enacted in our lives. And so when we see here that blessed are we if we carry out the commandments of God in the harmony of love so that our sins may be forgiven in love, it's I think it's referencing back to the Lord's prayer. Yeah. Where he says, Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Exactly. And that those that forgiveness must be done in love. Yeah. For if you do not love your neighbor, you hate God. Yeah. And Paul says in Galatians that what matters is faith working through love. Love. and it's also important to note there that he says this blessing was given to those who have been chosen by God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So we have their election is the blessing that love which produ which leads to the forgiveness of sins comes from. Yeah, it's the it's John six being enacted again. Yeah. And I would point out, he says later in chapter forty or fifty two, brothers, the master has no need of anything at all. He requires nothing except confession to him. For the elect one David says, I will confess to the Lord, and it will please him more than a young calf growing horns and hooves. Let the poor see this and rejoice. And so he's talking about how the sacrifices of God are a broken and contrite heart. And so when he says that our sins may be forgiven through love, it's not saying that our actions produce the forgiveness of our sins. It's this is the fruit of those who are forgiven. Yeah, it's Christ crowning it in us. Yep. His spirit. Bring in bring in Perkins William. I will always bring Perkins into this. He's right now my favorite of the Reformers. Yeah, he was he was great. Yeah. All right. Well, that is it for the podcast episode tonight. we went a little longer. We would have gone even longer if I didn't get that notification that the battery was dying. So thank you guys for joining us in the Reformed Corner. Again, don't forget to go check out squirrelyjoes dot com and use code corner to get fifteen percent off your first order. 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