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Leadership without the Title: Insights from Mike De Luca · LeaderSIP: Let's Talk Leadership

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_05: Welcome everyone to another episode of Leadersip, the podcast where we talk about leadership, life, and whatever's in your cup.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_05: And today, as our guest, we have Mike De Luca.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_05: But before we dive in, Mike, could you please tell us what it is you're sipping on?
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a Macchiato.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Is that well known, Macchiato?
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_05: Like I know the word, but I don't know exactly what it means.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like an espr it's like an espresso that's got like a just enough milk in it to stain it.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: So that yeah.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: So it's still pretty it's a strong, it's a strong coffee.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of it's kind of, I suppose it's an Italian tradition that it that you don't take time over coffee.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's meant to be enjoyed quickly.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: So as soon as I had it, I just drank it.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_05: That's good.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_05: We had to keep with tradition, you know?
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: Unless you're what about you, Yarn?
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, thanks, man.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_04: I mean with a traditional morning coffee in my Banff cup.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_04: So just traditional nice coffee from Canada.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_05: So very nice.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, thanks.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_05: I have my usual cacao, but I have a really cute little kitty mug.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_05: And there's no handle on it.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_05: But I learned that um the Chinese and Japanese, why they don't have handles on their cup is because you're meant to wait for it to cool down enough to sip it.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's very interesting.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_05: Mike, today we have you on the show and you are going to talk to us about leadership without the title.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_05: And I know we both know that you have a very impressive career.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_05: Uh and we'd love a little snapshot.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_05: We know that you started as a publisher.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_05: Am I right about that?
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and go from there.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, right.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Whoa.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: Climate.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, it's a long time ago.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, my my working life, proper working life, started in publishing.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I was a student doing book and periodical publishing in Edinburgh.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: And my first job was with uh a magazine publisher and partwork publisher in London in 1978.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Seems like a long time ago.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I joined them as a sub-editor.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so my background is in editorial and eventually worked my way up to be uh an editorial manager, then an editorial director, and eventually a publisher.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I was in that for some time.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I've so I think I've been on the board of three different publishing companies, and then I've been on the board of three other companies non-publishing related.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um and yeah, and and most of my career, as you will you, as you no doubt know, Channel has been with an organization called Coverdale.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I've been with Coverdale.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm still involved a little bit with Coverdale.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: I've I I was chief executive in a step down 10 years ago.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and um, but I've still got an involvement with them.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so I've been involved with Coverdale for 34 years now.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: And as you know, the the uh is the world of corporate coaching.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: And um I got into that as part of a grand plan.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: No, it was by accident, by pure accident.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: I found myself, I found myself in the world of coaching.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that's me, I guess.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's me.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm still doing it.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm still doing it, but mostly with not-for-profit and charities now.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_05: Nice.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_05: Oh wow.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_05: I will say also that Mike, you I know I'm going to embarrass you, but Mike has I I'm the managing director of Coverdale in the US, and Mike De Luca is a held to a very high esteem in the the coaching world.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_05: And just your you're also taught me.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_05: You're you were one of my entry points to Coverdale and one of my mentors.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_05: And your name echoes throughout your fingerprint, is is all over the the organization for how well you are you do with clients and also with bringing in new coaches.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_05: So I had I have to say that.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you for letting me do that, Mike.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you're right.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: It did embarrass me.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: But thank you.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_04: I knew it.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_04: I I I want to say that one thing that uh as we were reading through your story, that really it's so impressive.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_04: If if anyone is curious about what I'm talking, what I'm going to be talking about, they can look for it because it's extremely interesting.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_04: Oh that is uh this article.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you get that?
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you get that?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_04: The internet never forgets.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_04: Um it's really good.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_04: Like you should read about extremely good.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_04: It's extremely good.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_04: And and I love the story how how you frame this.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_04: It's like, oh, we need better leaders.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_04: And it was like, yeah, oh yeah, okay.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_04: And then it was written through it, and the story is incredible.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_04: I want to know more.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_04: I'm just curious.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_04: From all the names, I was not expecting Robert Maxwell.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_04: When you said that, I was like, not Robert Maxwell.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_04: So I was like, oh my God.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_04: So how what happened?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_04: Because I love the way that you connected those two stories, that what happened to you and the impact that that generated.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_04: So if you can take us through that process.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I can't.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_05: I'm not totally sure who Robert Maxwell is either.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_05: I should have done Mary McGill.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: Have you heard of Rupert Max Rupert Rupert Murdoch?
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so he's a big, big, big media, media mogul.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: Robert Maxwell was the kind of forerunner of him, you know.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: And just as badly behaved.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but anyway.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, so he was a it was it was a he was a publishing and media mogul.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: And uh our paths crossed very briefly.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um I can't rem I can't remember what was said in that business insider article, but let me tell you let me tell you my side of the story there.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, so so I'm I'm guessing, Yari, you're referring to the time when I very briefly worked for Robert Maxwell.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: Before he decided it was before he decided it was better if I didn't work for him.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's one of my claims to fame is that I was I was sacked by Robert Maxwell.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_04: I I love the the way that that leadership style is presented there.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_04: The leadership style of like, was that even leadership?
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_04: That's the question as I was reading through it.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um But beyond that, the way that the leadership style was presented, no change management, no, no nothing.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_04: It was a bulldozer in the process.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_04: So the the article and and that event took me to a reflection of I've been there, I've been in merges, I've been in changes in relations, and I feel that I've encountered that leader.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_04: I've been in front of that leader.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so so you're quite you're quite right.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: So so Robert Martill was could best be described as a dictator.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um who was he was very clear what he wanted, and if you didn't want the same, then off you go.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um so he was very it was very I mean, we would now I mean we but it was I guess at the at the time you would call it as a recognized leadership style in the nice way of putting it as command and control, but actually the the the the reality was it should do what he said or you get out.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um and he had no room for um listening to anybody, no room for taking anybody's ideas or thoughts or opinions or input, it was his way or the highway, that was it.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: So so so his uh his I his idea of of um of someone maybe having um consideration for other people's feelings or empathy of any kind is a sign of weakness.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I needed more people like that in his organization.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: So we we decided, I'm gonna say we decided, he decided we should part company.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, yeah, which I'm delighted about.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_05: Sure.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_05: It led you down to where you are now.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well I wasn't so delighted at the time.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: My wife had just had her first child and um suddenly found myself without a job.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: But it was great, it was great.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: Best thing that ever happened to me.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: On reflection.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: On reflection.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_05: Uh upon reflection, of course.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm curious, Mike, what do you attribute to success for to the success of someone like Robert Maxwell who has that type of leadership where if he's saying like empathy or consideration for others is a weakness, and then from the outside it looks like maybe he has a point.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_05: What do you what do you think about that?
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: So it's very interesting.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's a great question, right?
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: So because because yes, so in in the short term, these people can be very, very successful, right?
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it is the embodiment of of one type of of source of authority, which is hierarchical authority, right?
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: The fact that he had loads of money as well helped, right?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: But he's but he's but his main form of authority came from he was the boss, right?
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that is that is traditional, the traditional form of authority comes from your job title, right?
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: Which I guess starts to get us into this area of the subject of this of this little chat, right?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um because because the traditional way of of of exercising authority or leadership, I mean there's a slight difference, but it's close enough for the our purposes here, is is that your your authority comes from your job title, right?
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: Which means that you can control resources, you can control what happens, you can make decisions, you can delegate authority, you can keep control, you can basically and even you can even tell people what to do, right?
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the downside, the downside of that is that is that's fine if you're in an organization where you are have this very senior role, and the more senior your role, the more authority you have.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's fine.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: But it don't it won't work on a bus, right?
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: It won't work, it won't work as you're if you're standing in a in a queue in a shop with people.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: It won't work there, right?
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: And and the other the other the other downside of that kind of authority is it can be taken away.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's not really yours.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's been given to you by someone, or it's been taken by you from someone or somewhere, but it can therefore it's transient.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's not permanent, right?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_05: That's I never thought about that.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_05: That's true, yes.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: And and and uh and of course if if if people and people people are are I mean we talked about babe boomers before, but you mean even I think even now, more so now the current generation of young people in the workforce, they can pretty quickly see when someone doesn't have real authority.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: So they see through that.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: They see through it.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: So the fact that they've become buoys and and somebody tries to, in a senior position, tries to take command without the real authority.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: And by real authority I mean taking people with you and influencing people and aligning them with long-term goals and all that good stuff, and keeping them on board, they see through that pretty quickly.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: And therefore they push back against it.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: So if you want to take an organization with you, it's very short term.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: That makes sense?
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_05: That makes so much sense.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_05: And I think, and I really appreciate bringing in the the topic of generations because I I talk about in like with clients about how when my grandmother, who's 97, she's like, why don't you just tell people what to do and then what do you what is your job?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_05: First of all, and second of all, like, what's the deal?
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_05: How can how do people hire you?
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_05: Just the boss tells people managers what to do and then they do it.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm like, well, grandma, thanks to you, like I'm standing on your shoulders and on the shoulders of my mother as well.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_05: But that's right.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_05: The workplaces become um more complex and people's needs are more at the forefront.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_05: And so now we're dealing with with complexity.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_05: The world, honestly, humans world has always been complex, but right now it's it's more at the forefront.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think I think, I mean, certainly when I went when I first joined the workforce, which publishing slightly different because it's quite full of very kind of liberal thinking artifacts creative people, right?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: So they're gonna push back anyway, right?
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um but it but in general in general, when I started work, it was the traditional way, right?
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: The boss, the boss had all the answers.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: The boss told you what to do.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: It was very instruct, tell, direct.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um and the control and the power kept was in the hands of the of the leader or the manager.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: They kept it, right?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: Which meant that the rest of the people that were working for them were disempowered.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: It meant that all the decisions were maken at the top by by a very few, or sometimes just one person.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: So decision making was very slow.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, as the market started to change and customers started to have a bigger voice and say, you may, you may, you may produce widgets, but that's not what I want.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: I want widgets or budgets or whatever, then then then organizations had to start listening to the market, and therefore, people had to react much more quickly in order to be competitive.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, therefore, the model of waiting for the boss to make a decision was too slow.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, wow.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_05: I've never I've never heard it from that perspective either.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_05: Blowing minds, Mike, blowing our minds today, this morning already.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's early for that.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: It means organizations become very sluggish, right?
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and now, and now, as you, as you will be very, very aware, it's it's it's the market, markets are so fast moving now.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: You cannot be sluggish.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: You can't be.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: Decisions need to be made very, very quickly.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, your competitors will provide what the customer wants better and faster than you.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_05: And so, how do you tie that?
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_05: Can you tie that back around for us to what that means about the leadership style shift?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so so what's needed then?
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I talk about a new model of leadership.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: I've been talking about this new model of leadership for nearly 30 years now, so it's not that new, but it means that it means that you've got to move much more towards, I guess we don't have a name for it, but let's call it a coaching style of leadership, right?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the same as coaching, but a coaching style of leadership where where it's much more empowering, inspiring, supporting, enabling, so that you're releasing the skills in people so they get the task done, so the decision-making authority lies with them, the power lies with them, and it's therefore much more enduring, and the organization becomes much more sleek-footed because people the the decisions are being made with the by the people that have got the information.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: That makes a lot of sense.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_05: I've only thought of it from the cultural perspective of people's needs, but you're bringing in this whole other dimension of markets and needing to move quickly and needing to empower people.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I've thought Yeah, and it's complex, right?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's complex.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds very simple, but it's actually very complex because guess what?
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: People are involved, and when people are involved, it's a pain.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's a pain in the ass, right?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: If people weren't there, it'd be so easy.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: But people are there.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_05: It's true.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_05: Like, let's just let AI take over, right?
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_05: Like we don't have to worry about it.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'd be so you know, so that so what does that mean?
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: That means that that the leader, the leader has to take care of lots of different things.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: And and Shana, you've heard me talk about this before, right?
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: So they need they need to be, they need to be, if, if, if the if the workforce and the people that are working in an organization are going to be empowered, you need to create the environment where empowerment can happen.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: So that means you need to be open, informative, you need to be, you need to be appreciating and sharing praise with people.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: You need to it needs to be non-blame culture so people aren't aren't scared to stick their head above the parapet or take responsibility for making decisions if they think they're going to be you know ritually abused or humiliated for making the wrong decision.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: So you need to create all that and you need to you need to represent your people across interfaces, you need to represent your people up and down and and and and be their champion, and it's quite a different role, right?
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: And you need to make sure that they have the skills to be able to make these decisions when they need to be made.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, in all for in order for all this to happen, you need to think strategically so that you've got common direction and common goals behind which to align.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: So they're taking decisions in line with the organization's goals.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: And all those three areas need to be need to be the the leader's domain now.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: So the strategic thinking bit the creating an environment where empowerment can happen, and developing and unleashing the skills in your people.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: And you've got to take care of all those three areas.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: And the whole hierarchical authority leadership model is no longer appropriate.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Hasn't been for some time, by the way, but it's still it's still it's still in evidence.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's still there, right?
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's still there.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_05: Oh yeah.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_05: Oh yeah.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_05: I'm I'm curious.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_05: You have it sounds like you have been a leader during this cultural shift and during the market shift.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm curious how you navigated that.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_05: Like now both Yara and I are in a time when this is already the like the stylish, if you will, way of leading and and wanting to help organizations come to this place of being able to think strategically and not have hierarchy in that same way.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm curious how how you came to these conclusions initially.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, I wouldn't it be great if I'd learned all this through my own experience, but I haven't, right?
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: I have I have I have learned some of it, usually by doing things badly and getting feedback on it, right?
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: So um, so yeah, I mean, but the the the I guess I guess one of the first things to recognize is that is that in order to change the model of leadership, you need to understand where authority and power lies, right?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, and how do you you and therefore how do you use that and influence it for the greater good, whatever that is, right?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever that is.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: And and and we've talked about hierarchical authority.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: So now now, of course, you're getting to a stage where leaders are not the experts in their technical discipline, right?
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: So they're so they they get they get they get to be managers or leaders or or you know heads of department or whatever based on their technical ability.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: They've been very good at their jobs.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: So they get promoted to this position out of a position of high competence into a position of incompetence, right?
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: Which is leadership because they've never been never been trained how to do it, right?
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: So suddenly they're in this position where the people that are working for them working for them need to be better than them because technical expertise is moving so quickly, right?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: So therefore the leader needs to be very comfortable with people working for them that know more than them.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's quite a challenge.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: Quite a challenge.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: Quite a challenge.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because because if you think about it, that's where I used to live.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: And hang on, now you're telling me you know more than me.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Ouch.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: So what am I going to do?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to interfere.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's my domain.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's the first mistake leaders make.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: You need to get out of there, get out there, and let the people that really know how to do the job do the job.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: And therefore, you recognize another form of authority, which is authority based on expertise.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: Alright?
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: So if you get somebody that's an expert at something, people will listen to them.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: They will have authority based on that expertise.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: The leaders' role then is how do you use that?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: How do you get the best out of these people?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: How do you align them and other people in the organization to be able to meet the goals of the organization in the most effective and efficient way possible?
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: But unless you recognize that these experts are there to be used and you give them the authority to use their expertise, then you're going to stifle them.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: And you will your department organization will never be any better than you.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: You will become the limiting factor.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: So you need to get out of that.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: Let the people grow, let the people have the authority to make the decisions and do their job properly.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this kind of this kind of technical expertise, again, hierarchical authority only works within an organization.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Technical expertise is only valid in situations where your technical expertise is needed.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: That authority doesn't work outside that sphere.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_05: True.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: So so the other the other downside about this kind of this kind of about authority is is that it's it's it can become obsolete.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_05: So quickly.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_05: Especially to we're seeing, and I'm curious, Yara, what your what thoughts are.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_05: Going on over there because she works, she's quickly becoming more and more um asked for in the realm of AI adoption and this this happening where people's expertise is just getting fully erased like overnight.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_04: It's true.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_04: As soon as you walk away from that space that your expertise is is needed, that authority changes.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_04: So um one thing that I was thinking is now that we have the AI, is AI a new authority entering the room, right?
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_04: And most of the changes that we have in terms of um how people are are behaving around AI, one of the things that always that I hear the most is we don't have a choice because AI is that thing that right now is have a lot of inf access to a lot of information and challenge our authority in terms of how much I know about something.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_04: I can come with a prompt and suddenly have all that information in front of my eyes, and I don't need that other person to explain it to me.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_04: And I can even say explain it in simple words.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_04: So, how do you how do you see that this new interaction and this new authority entering the room?
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_04: That it's authority for both the employee and the boss, and it's authority over all of us because of the amount of access.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_04: That's just another podcast, but it's it's not thinking, right?
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_04: It's a it's a large language model, it's not thinking, but have access to a lot of information and can manage a lot of information and give it back to us and make us kind of give us access to an expert in in a just a few clicks.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: See, that's really interesting.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: I've never thought of that before.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: So this is so I'm gonna think out loud if that's okay.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_04: Great.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, please.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: So the word the word the word you use is another kind of authority coming into the room.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: But it's authority based on expertise that we may not have, right?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: So if we recognize that as authority based on expertise, we can use it.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: So rather than it controlling us, we can use it.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: So if just like you're using an expert and how you get the best out of the expert, if you look at AI as another form of expertise and another form of expert, then your relationship with it changes.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't thought this through, by the way, I'm literally thinking out aloud.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, when it comes to AI, most of us are.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I guess so.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: I guess if it's if it if if you if you recognize AI as a as as something with with authority-based and expertise, then you treat it like that.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, that's really interesting.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_05: And I and also tying back to what you were talking about before, Mike, that our our learning curve for a lot of us is start is starting over again.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_05: Like even when we get that promotion or like the accidental manager, and we're all of a sudden like, oh wait, so we're dealing with humans, not just not just the technical expertise.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_05: And I think that um with AI as well, and with experts becoming managers over the humans, we it's it's interesting to think about how much humanity or how many humans are left in this AI discussion of like, okay, so it is able to do a lot of processing of, you know, it's a large language model, as Yara said, it can't think for itself, but it has access to all of this information.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_05: So how do we click on our thinking brains of like, okay, how can, as you said, Mike, like, how can we manage that authority in the room?
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_05: Or how can we manage that in organizations?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: I guess so.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I guess so.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know the answer.
• 25:57
  unknown: Okay.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_04: And I I think that um I've seen because I've been able to share and have hard-to-heart, honest conversations with leaders.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_04: And um I feel that many of uh many leaders are going to AI because it's a private conversation and making decisions based on those private conversations.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_04: Most of the time I ask the question, have you talked about uh have you talked about this with your people, adoption?
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_04: How how are how are the other employees doing with this?
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_04: But um I feel that you expressed something at the beginning without the title.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_04: And that that really kind of uh blew my blew blew my mind because when I was at the beginning of my career, I wanted to be a boss, to have the title, to be a leader.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_04: And at the at the beginning, I was not uh educated enough to be able to differentiate the two of them.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_04: I was wanting to be a leader, I was not wanting to be uh uh necessarily a boss, right?
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but for me, they were entangled.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_04: There was no way to be a leader without being a boss.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: So that's right.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_04: When when that that kind of make that because I love the leadership without a title, when that kind of click and you say, like, oh, like this is happening, and and uh when when that click and that moment happened for you, that aha moment.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: So let me tell, let me so so this is great, right?
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: This is really this is really fascinating because because what this takes us into is the realm of of and you may have heard me use this phrase before, Shan, I'm not sure, but but the the area of process authority, right?
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: So normally when we talk about leadership and and and authority, we're talking about task leadership, task authority, right?
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: Now in the but let's go back in time again.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: So why we why we're so keen to be bosses or have the title is it usually comes with money.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_05: True.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, true.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's one of the few ways of getting on is to go up the hierarchy.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: So it forces us into this hierarchical authority model, right?
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: Whether we want it or not, right?
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, remember that can be taken away.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: Expertise can be taken over, it can be obsolete, AI can come along and be more all that stuff, right?
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: Process authority is yours forever and no one can take it away.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: Now, what do we mean by process authority?
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: So it is about the world of influencing, it's about the world of making taking personal responsibility, it's about making proposals, being helpful, doing things in line with aims that get the job done, whether it's your job or not.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_04: I like I I I've never heard of that.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_04: Of now you're putting it in in a way that I'm like, oh, it was always there, but I was like, oh, of course.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: And and then some some some people, some I'm gonna say, I'm gonna use the word natural, but it's not natural.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: Some people have this natural authority, right?
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: Based on their personality, right?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: Some people call it charisma.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, charisma, right, right, right, right.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it's kind of this squidgy, magical, kind of misty, kind of magical mirror stuff that you think, oh, I wish I had some of that, right?
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: But actually most of it's based on learned behaviors.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: So you can learn it.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: You can learn it.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it is about taking personal responsibility, it's about learning certain behaviors where people can appear in control and calm.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_05: Can you can you say more about what those behaviors are?
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: So so for I've mentioned a couple, right?
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: So making make making making a clear proposal rather than a tentative suggestion.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: And making a proposal rather than asking a question.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: Should we do this or should we do that?
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: My I propose we do this.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: So that or or it's speaking clearly and calmly, resisting the temptation to offer an explanation for what you're saying, or justification, or apologizing for what you're saying.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: This is all stuff that if you can recognise you're doing it and stop doing it, you develop a form of authority that becomes part of your personality.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so so, and most of us are fragile human beings, so we have self-doubts, we have fears, particularly when we're under pressure.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: So the trick is when you're feeling under pressure, keep those doubts and fears to yourself.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: People like to be around people that are calm.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: And making proposals and making suggestions that are helpful.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's process authority.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody has it.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_05: Everybody has it.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody has it.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_05: I'm also curious the line, like, because I know that we're there is a line there as well.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_05: I I understand what you're saying and I agree, Mike, of like, don't keep it to yourself, don't let anybody know if you have doubts.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_05: And like there's also the argument of if you are having like with change management or with those those sorts of models.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_05: Hey, I know we're we're in trouble.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_05: Like there, that that word that that elusive word also transparency that a lot of readers like to use, which I don't, I think is always false advertising and isn't something that we should strive for because transparency isn't always appropriate.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but I'm curious what how you think about that line of I guess maybe um instead of transparency um integrity.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_05: Or like how do you how do you stay in that integrity as a as a leader?
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: So that again, again, it's a great question, right?
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: And in in this in it, what raises its head here is this this little specter of people, right?
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you know your people and you know them well, you'll know whether they can handle the truth or not.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Therefore, it may be appropriate to be transparent.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't think they can handle the truth, it may be appropriate not to give them it all immediately.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: But to guide them there through some kind of, I don't know, step-by-step process rather than b-right.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: So but again, it's a it's about it's about no the the key thing for me is as a leader is to be authentic.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: So if you say something, mean it.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_05: To be a thinker, is that what you said?
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_05: To be a thinker.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: Did I say that?
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't listening.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: No, be it I think be authentic.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_04: Authentic, authentic.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_04: Authentic.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, authentic.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_04: Authentic.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: Be a thinker, by all means.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: By all means, be a thinker.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good, it's usually a good thing to do.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_05: I was like, okay, no, I wasn't that weird, my okay, authentic.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_05: God thinker.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_04: Mike, I will share this for a second.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_04: I've had this boss.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I work at a at a place, uh, corporate, and uh she was it was the this hierarchical thing, right?
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_04: Needs to be that way because of the kind of highly regulated industry that is, right?
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_04: And she was she was very authoritarian, right?
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_04: It was it was her her role there.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_04: And at the same time, I was suspecting it to be a train wreck, right?
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_04: That we would hate working with this woman, but we love to work with her.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_04: Still today we remember her and she was able to build a team.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_04: That happened, I don't know, I don't know how many years, maybe maybe 10 years ago.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_04: And we still, the team that were part of her team, we still talking to each other.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_04: She was able to build a team.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_04: And I've been all these years looking for that, what was her that magic, right?
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, she was not necessarily the classical um democratic leader.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um but one thing that we were so sure is that she got she was in control of the situation.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_04: And I feel that as as soon as you said that, the first thing that came to my mind was her face.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_04: Even though we experience uh a very complex situation as a company, right?
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_04: We merge, we end up merging.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um this person, we felt that she was in control, and it was calming in that very intense situation.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_04: That she was in control of that.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_04: So I I wanna I just wanna say that you're bringing also the possibility of of that being calming and soothing.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_04: I know that there were a lot of things happening for her, yeah, right?
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_04: But at that moment, I was not needing that as as part of the team.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_04: I was I was needing that segment of her that was sure.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_04: So I don't know if if if I'm describing what what you're what you were saying, if if that yeah so it can't it it it can be uh yeah, right?
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: So so what I'm not saying is that being dictatorial or using command and controls a style is never appropriate.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because it sometimes it is appropriate, particularly if the risk is high, right?
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: Or time is short, or you know, some of the some things are the the the safety, except that let's say safety is an issue, then it can be appropriate to just give people instruction and tell them what to do, right?
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: Now look at it from the other point of view.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: Some people like that.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: Some people don't like open situations where they have to make decisions for themselves.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: They want people to tell them what to do.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's okay, by the way.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's a personal preference.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's a personal preference, right?
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: But it but it but it but as we go through the way the markets are moving now, if so in the short term it can be a very effective thing to do.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: It can make the people that work for them feel fantastic because they don't have to worry about anything.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: Or she's taking care of that.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: Lovely, fantastic, right?
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: Any problems, bump them upstairs.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: Bump them upstairs.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have to worry about it, right?
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a very nice place to be as long as you're not the one that's getting getting the crap beaten out of them or kicked out of them, right?
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: So in the short term it can be highly appropriate, in the long term it's a bit more problematic because because one person's making all the decisions.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: They're in control, yes.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: But if the market's moving very quickly and the comp and the competitors are moving quickly as well, you're going to be left behind.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: Also, the as more as the people in that team become but develop their own expertise and skills, they want they want more authority, they want more decision-making powers.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: They want to control their own work rather than be told telling what tell them what to do.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: So slowly, slowly, it starts to erode that feeling of team.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: And you start to want to get out of there because suddenly it's not the safe, cozy, lovely, cuddly place it was before.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I'm talking, I'm talking in generalizations now, right?
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know your situation yet, right?
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: But but it but but the but the story you told there was a very good example when it's highly appropriate.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and I think a good leader will change depending on the situation.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, that's exactly I think that you're also describing Daniel Goleman's leadership, emotional intelligence, leadership style with everybody's emotional intelligence.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_05: That means that you sit and talk about your feelings all the time.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_05: And it's like, no, it means that you can read a situation and you know how to adapt your leadership style to when there's and I I when I was doing my collecting uh interviews for my research on the emotional experience of change in organizations.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_05: There was one CEO who she's very democratic and like famously democratic.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_05: And during COVID, her staff had an intervention basically and said, We need you to step up, we need you to tell us what to do, we need you to make these decisions for us because we are in an emergency state right now during COVID.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_05: And I think that that's like a perfect example of that.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_05: But she, and for her, that was the stretch.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_05: Whereas for other leaders, like going into the more democratic mode is really difficult for them.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: And that is a form of acute awareness, not just about yourself, but about what's happening around about you, and then doing something, whatever it is, deliberately.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: And you'll get it wrong sometimes, as long as you make a choice and do it deliberately rather than just bumble along and see what happens.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_05: Can you say more about that?
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_05: Just being deliberate, like what so you know what you know you know what it's like?
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know what it's like, you know what it's like to so there's there's several ways of operating, right?
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: But most of us bumble through life hoping for the best, right?
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: And and and when we're in when we're in a in a work situation, that's probably not the way to do it, right?
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's it's it's it's about so let's look, let's let's let's use emotional intelligence as a little model here, right?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: So so it is about it is about being aware of yourself, aware of the situation, and then deliberately choosing what to do based on that.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: Being very deliberate.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: So it is it is like it is it is it is the three S.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's reading the room or reading the situation, recognizing what's happening, and then responding accordingly.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: And doing it deliberately.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_05: That makes sense.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_05: Thanks for thanks for breaking it down for me, Mike.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_05: But I think I get what you're saying, but but I guess sometimes those the common terms can be can be misinterpreted.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_05: Sure.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_05: Um But yeah, I think that it's it's an interesting, it it feels like a really vulnerable space when you describe that, like as a leader in in making a deliberate choice when you don't necessarily know what the outcome is gonna be.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_05: And just you describing it, I feel I'm like feel a bit anxious.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_05: I feel a little bit of anxiety over.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, but you're so right.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_05: Like we we need to be so brave when when there's we need to make a deliberate choice, and I don't think that I necessarily thought of that.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: The other the other thing is, you know, with Yara's story there about when when the the bot the boss she had was was in control and in command in highly appropriately then, right?
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: Then then it when you're in that closed situation, right, then you know what to do.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: Either because you've done it before, or you have no choice.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: This is what we've got to do, right?
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: Leaders nowadays need to operate in this open situation, they need to deal with ambiguity and uncertainty and be comfortable with it.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: So they need to stop and think rather than just act.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: Stop and think, and then deliberately say, right, what do I need to do here?
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to do this, and then live with the consequences.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it's your ability as a person, as a leader, as a team, as an organization to go through that cyclical process of trying things out, reviewing and adjusting, and doing that faster than the competition that will lead to success.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: And recognizing it's not a straight line, it's a cyclic process.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it's that it's that getting getting into action, reviewing, stopping, thinking about it, adapting, trying something else, stopping, reviewing, adapting.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_05: The par cycle prep preparation action review, right?
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly right.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly right.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_05: Um and and how do you how do you, as you just said, that's easier said than done.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_05: Um and how do you get advised organizations to like find that pause button?
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_05: What what how how do you advise that they put that into their um operationalize that?
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's another great question.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: I wish it I wish there was a nice simple answer to it.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because what one of the one of the issues that organizations have is they're rubbish at designing systems.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: Systems that make something happen that needs to happen.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh rubbish at it.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: What tends to happen is you've got a system in place and measures in place, and it forces it forces a behavior that you don't want.
• 43:15
  unknown: Right.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it takes it takes very mature thought and it needs again, it needs to be very deliberate and say, right, for this situation, this is how we're going to do it.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: And spending a lot of time, we were very we've we've become very good at the at the why and the what.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: Now we need to spend a bit more time and thinking, and how do we do that?
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: And how do we take the team with us?
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: How do we make sure we're all aligned across the organization?
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: And we're not spending enough time doing that.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_05: Mm-hmm.
• 43:42
  unknown: Yeah.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: That alignment piece, alignment piece is still missing.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_05: Alignment is missing, yeah.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_05: And I think that the AI, I'll say the AI mess is such a beautiful, heightened example of how people are not stopping to align first.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_05: And like AI, I heard somebody say AI is scaling our productivity and our mistakes at great to our demise.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_05: And just echoing that it's more, it's I would argue that it's more important now even than before because of how fast everything's moving.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_05: We need to really be an alignment first.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: I wish I wish I knew more about some time offline.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'd love to have a conversation with you.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: If you do a tutorial for me on AI, so to help me help to speak.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm I'm very much left behind.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_05: Well, but I think though, Mike, you you're not though, because I feel like your this skill set that you're talking about is so important.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_05: And I think that people are kind of a lot of organizations in Yara, I know that you can speak to this really well as well, but people have face full face plant, and they're like, whoopsie, we did not think this through, and losing billions of dollars by by not thinking this through.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_05: And so I would say that you are primed, Mike, to be at the head of the table on these discussions in terms of like I'm so curious about the China project.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_04: I was I was reading through it, and I I have so much curiosity how how to make that happen.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_04: Not necessarily share language, a total different culture.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_04: Can you take us on on a little bit of a tour to that incredible experience of the China Project?
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: And and you're you're quite right.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was it was one of the most incredible experiences of my life.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: I learned so much, made so many mistakes, but did a few things right, luckily.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it was it was I mean, I don't know how much you know about it, but it was it was it was a new build petrochemical plant.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: It was there was there was um 16 different nationalities, expat nationalities working uh on on site.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um it was a joint venture between CNuc, which is a China National Offshore Oil Company, and Shell.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um so most of the expats were from Shell.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um there was the senior management in the in the organization were political appointees from the Communist Party in China.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then there was people that were working on site from 60 different provinces in China, all had their own cultures, all had their own way of working.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the first meetings I had with the chairman who was a member of the at the Communist Party political appointee, he said, How are you going to change a 2000-year old culture?
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because one of our jobs was to was to bring everybody together, right?
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_05: Well, talking about challenges, no pressure.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_00: And and and the and the overall aim was what they called a flawless startup, which means that when you press that button, the petrochemical plant switched on and the the crude started flowing and the the it started being made into fuels and whatnot, right?
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: So that was the that was the the overall aim of it.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so this guy said, How are you gonna change a 2,000-year culture?
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Well, we're not.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: We're not, we're not even gonna try.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna create a new one.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna create a culture for this petrochemical plant.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's gonna be used, it's gonna be used, and we're gonna create it together.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's how we did it.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's how we did it.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: So everybody on that site, every single person went through a three-day workshop where they learned ways of working, learned behaviors, learned how to communicate with each other, learned how to do a task together, learned how to come together in different teams across different projects.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, and yeah, it was and and and what we the way we did it was we trained we trained you, you know what I'm talking about.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: We trained, we trained coaches to work alongside us to deliver these workshops.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: It was it was an 18-month project, right?
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_05: Wow.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um so just to get through that population.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um but we trained coaches, then we trained them to run the workshops themselves.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so we handed over everything to them.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_00: So they eventually did it themselves, and we stepped back.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: And as you probably know, one of the principles of coaching is you know you've been successful when they look at something and say, Yeah, and we did this ourselves.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know you've been successful as a coach.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_04: Well, thank you for sharing that.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and is that the um is that the thing that I read in the article where you saved them two, was it like two million dollars a day?
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_05: A day, was that that project?
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: I can't remember now.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I mean we did.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: I remember.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_04: How many minutes did you send you?
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_04: That you don't remember, Mike.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: No, but it's it's it is quite common.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: It is quite common for us to save people millions.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_05: How do you quantify that?
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_05: Or like how do you I'm curious how you how you do you just come in at the beginning and look at their numbers and then compare them?
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: So what we tend to what we tend to do, right?
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: What do we tend to do is is is um if we're if if if it's a big project like that where you're putting everybody through a workshop, what we did was we did something called a wall.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: So we put a big wall in there, and we did we did all what's called swim lanes, all the different functional departments, and we went through like a three-year timeline and all the projects that was running and everything that was going on, and then we said, right, what's happening there, right?
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's a project's gonna kick off, right?
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: Who's gonna be involved in that project?
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: Right, let's get them on this workshop here so they're ready to start that project there.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then we could call we then we could quantify the outputs of the projects.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: We put a fine and everything, you can put a financial measure on anything, right?
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, if you if you're you know if you can be bothered doing it, something but yeah, yeah, you um but but in in a situation like that it was it was really necessary to do it because it was costing them a lot of money to have us there for 18 months.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and um so it was very important to show that not only was it was it beneficial, but that the workshops were actually paying for themselves.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the criteria we put in is that at the end of the workshop, they'd start a task or a project, and that project had to pay for the workshop.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_04: Hmm.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_04: Oh wow, what a good yeah, we're gonna be able to do that.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_02: So it costs them nothing.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_00: It cost them nothing.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_05: Hmm.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_05: And it is of course when you look it is, it was that project, the Shell project.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_05: You were saving them two million dollars a day.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right, okay.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: There you go.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_05: Well done.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_05: Well done.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_00: They did it.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: They did it.
• 51:20
  unknown: True.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_05: You coached them through that.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: All we do is create the environment where they can do it, right?
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_05: Hmm.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_05: Yes, true.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_05: That's right.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they do it, they do it.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_05: And that's and did you use the the Coverdale methodology of task cycles and and those approaches?
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: Always.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_05: Always, yeah.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_05: Always use it across languages, across cultures.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_05: So true.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: We did have issues, of course.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: The Chinese culture is very um it's very um hierarchical.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um so we did have we did have issues where people wouldn't turn up for project kickoff meetings.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um and when we said, where are they?
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm talking about a project manager at this point, um, uh they don't always go into some meeting somewhere else.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_00: So when we found out he'd gone, said, Well, did you know you you knew the kick project was kicking off yesterday.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_00: Why did you go to the other meeting?
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because my boss asked me to.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: Didn't occur to him to get in touch with us and say, I'm not coming to this project kickoff.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: His boss, by the way, when he found out, was horrified because he said that project's more in Poland, you should have been there.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_00: But of course, the culture in China is my boss asked me to do something, I just do it.
• 52:40
  unknown: Right.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_00: I don't say I've got something else to do, I do it.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_05: And how did you combat that moving forward?
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_00: With huge difficulty.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 52:52
  unknown: Yeah.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_00: But they but they had to learn it was okay, and we had to have the bosses say it's okay.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_05: Hmm.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_05: But I bet even still they they couldn't change shift that culture over.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_05: Very difficult, very difficult.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, very, very difficult.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_00: Very difficult.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_00: But it but it but it's it's it's kind of ironic that we we had to use the hierarchical authority to change the hierarchical authority.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_05: That is ironic, but it makes a lot of sense.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_05: They have to give permission.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_05: There, when working with uh international group uh doing an intercultural workshop, there was a Japanese fellow, and it was there's Indian people from India, uh Germany, US, you know, the full spread.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_05: And when we were talking about uh feedback culture, I remember asking the the Japanese gentleman, how can we get how can we how can people solicit feedback from you like in within the hierarchy?
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_05: And he was silent.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_05: Basically saying, No, it won't happen.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_05: I will never give my my manager feedback.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_00: No, no.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm like, it's just that cultural, like, how how do you get things done?
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_05: Like, how are you such a productive country?
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_05: But it's like there are different ways of working, Shannon, in the world.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_00: I know, and I do remember when it when we were talking about what it with in China when we were talking about feedback and the importance of feedback, and we're talking about giving, you know, the way we talk to our children.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_00: And and the difference between giving them negative feedback and and giving them positive feedback and the impact it has on the young child's mind, right?
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: And and and they were horrified.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_00: They said we would never give our children positive feedback in case in case it put a hex on them and they got bad luck.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_05: Wow.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_05: That's not something that you can just come in and be like, stop doing that.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you yeah, you've got to listen to that, you know?
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_00: You can't.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's yeah.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_04: What was your biggest lesson from that project, Mike?
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's a great question.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_00: What did a right what did a right analogous did it say?
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_02: What did I say before?
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think, I mean, I I I think I think it's it's I mean, I'm gonna be a bit a bit again generalist um rather than specific, but it it it it is it is again, it's that just reinforcement that everybody's different.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_00: And every individual is different, and every country and every country's culture is different.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not right, it's not wrong, it's just different.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_00: And you just need to accept it and try and work within the things that are not up for grabs and the things that they're willing to learn about.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: And you need to you need to recognize what those are.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, what's a given and what's a boundary that can be pushed?
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_05: Hmm.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, that's hugely impressive.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_05: And true.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_05: Time that's another piece of the agre ingredient that we really hate is time.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_05: I don't want this to take time.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_05: No, thank you.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_05: Yep.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, absolutely.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, when we talked about a little bit earlier about speed, you know, speed of decision making, speed of the market, the way things are changing and everything, you know.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: And and if you look at leadership, and and as you would expect, I'm a believer in in leadership being being capable of learned.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_00: So if you want people to learn leadership, they want it in an hour.
• 56:42
  unknown: Right.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: Can you you know give me a presentation on leadership in an hour, right?
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_00: And we know that actually all that's gonna do at best, at best, is raise your awareness.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's not gonna develop understanding and it's certainly not gonna develop any skill.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's gonna take time.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_05: Absolutely.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_05: And practice within that time.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_05: Um, Yara, should we move on to rapid fire?
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, Mike, this is such a great conversation.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um thank you so much.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_04: Now I know that I'm gonna be thinking about it for a while.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_04: Everything that I that I learned from you today, um, we're gonna move to the fun part of rapid fire.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_04: So we're gonna shoot some questions.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_05: Do you know are you familiar with rapid fire questions, Mike?
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, so don't worry.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_05: It's just like it's like a lightning round.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_05: So we have questions prepared and we ask you and you just respond as like as quickly.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_00: Can I get them wrong?
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_00: Can I can I get them wrong?
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_00: No, you cannot get them wrong.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_05: No, everything, it's there's no wrong answers here.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, yeah.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_05: You're like, what's happening?
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_05: Do you want to go first, Yara?
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, let's go.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_04: Um, confidence or competence?
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_00: Competence.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_05: Confidence.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, it okay, but we so the reason I paused is confidence comes from competence.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_00: So they're linked.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_04: All right.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_04: We see you a lot of mine.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_04: We see you.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_00: That was that that wasn't intention, was that?
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_00: I need to choose one, don't I?
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_05: No, you're gonna that's perfect.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_05: No wrong answer.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_05: You you nailed it.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_05: I know this is a big one in the Coverdale community.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_05: Lead or facilitate?
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_00: For me, facilitate.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_05: Mmm, okay.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_05: I of course want to know more, even though this is rapid fire.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_05: Can you just say a little bit about that?
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think because the word lead has so many connotations, right?
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because facilitation is a form of leadership.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_00: But given a choice, given a choice, I would always lean towards facilitation because you're taking people on a journey with you rather than yeah.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_05: Nice.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_05: All right, thank you.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_04: Yara.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_04: A piece of advice that you would give to Mike, the Mike from 20 years ago, from past Mike.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_04: A piece of advice that that you would give to yourself if you can go back in time 20 years from now, 20, 25 years from now.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_04: What's that piece of advice?
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_00: Great question.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_00: Stop worrying about what people think of you.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_04: Oof.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_05: Great.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_05: I feel like that's such a common, I feel like that's we all wish that for our past selves.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_05: I want to like do a study on that.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, if only, if only.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_05: Um okay, the trait that you would hire above all else.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_00: The trait.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_00: Did you say?
• 1:00:14
  unknown: Yes.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_00: Integrity.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_00: Integrity.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_05: How do you measure for that?
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, don't start.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be a quick fire.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_04: That's another podcast.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_04: That's another podcast.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_04: Oh my god, Mike, what a what a like great conversation.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_05: Logan.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_05: And also, Mike, we never asked where you're located in the world.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I am in the beautiful little Scottish border town of Lockerbay.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_05: Lockerby.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_00: Famous for its air disaster.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it's set in the beautiful Scottish countryside of rolling green hills and um rivers, and yeah, not much else.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_05: Gorgeous.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_05: That sounds very nice.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_05: Well, Mike, thank you so much for your time.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_00: I really enjoyed it.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_05: All of your insights.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, I'm so glad.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_00: Lovely to meet you, Yara.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's really nice to meet you.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's nice to see you again, Shannon.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_00: And congratulations again to you both.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you so much.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_05: And you know, maybe there could be a part two somewhere down the line.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_05: I know that we've only scratched the surface of all of these.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just relieved, I'm relieved to get through part one.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, what do you think?
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you so much.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_04: There are a couple of articles out there if you want to learn more about Mike, because it's extremely interesting.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_04: Just in case you want to learn more.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_04: There are a couple of articles out there.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_04: You're a very interesting person.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_04: Um where can we find you?
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, if people want to know, if people want to get in touch with you, how did how would they do that, Mike?
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um LinkedIn profile.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, sure.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, LinkedIn people can find me.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm on LinkedIn.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_00: My my email.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you've got my email address, haven't you?
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't mind if you want to share that.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm fine with that.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_04: So thank you so much for joining us.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_04: For the rest of the uh for our audience, please click like and subscribe and share this episode with people that you think that will benefit from it.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_04: So it's an incredible conversation, so please share it.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you both.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you, Mike.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.