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Developing and testing state-of-the-art sunscreens with Dr. Joshua Williams · The Science of Skin

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Dr.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: Patty Ferris.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a board certified dermatologist, and I'm your host for this episode of Skin Care Confidential.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Just as a reminder, Skin Care Confidential is an extension of our medical meeting, the Science of Skin Care Summit.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: The Science of Skin Care Summit's going to be held in Austin, Texas, November the 8th through the 10th this year.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: This is our fourth year.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: Super excited about that.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're interested in learning even more about skincare than you hear on the podcast, check us out, uh Science of Skincare Summit.com.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: So today I'm like really excited because I've got one of the most preeminent photobiologists in the country for sure, and probably the world with me, Dr.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: Joshua Williams.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to read his bio to you because it's oh so impressive.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: He's the manager and research fellow at Kenview in Global Skin Health Research and Development.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: And for those of you who don't know, Kenview is the Johnson ⁇ Johnson Consumers sort of rebranded name.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: We're all getting used to it.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm still hard for me.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: He has 10 years of experience in product development and clinical evaluation, specifically interested in sunscreen because he's a photobiologist, but he also works with other skincare products as well.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: He's a translational photobiologist and brings expertise in physical chemistry and experimental design to the ever-changing landscape of sun care.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: The brands that he supports are Neostrata, Lubiderm, Aveno, and Neutrogena, all brands that dermatologists totally love.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: He holds a PhD in pharmaceutical science from the University of Arizona College of Pharmacy.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Over his research career, he's had the privilege of working with numerous teams of physicians and scientists in areas of skin biology, topical drug delivery, and skin cancer prevention.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, Josh, welcome.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: Pleasure to be here.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: Super excited to have you here.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: And uh Josh and I had the pleasure of meeting and working on a project a couple of weeks ago, and that's what made me think that this would be such an interesting subject for skincare confidential.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's the summer.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh dermatologists are in the thick of it with their patients, trying to get everybody to wear a sunscreen and explain what the importance of sunscreen is.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought it would be fun, Josh, if we started off with those survey questions that were given to the Gen Zs, because this is a little bit disheartening if you're a dermatologist, and probably disheartening if you're somebody who makes sun protection products as well.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: But we must have missed the vote with this generation.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: So some of the interesting survey factoids, I'll call them, 71% of those surveyed were unfamiliar with the risks associated with sunburn.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: 59% believed the tanning myths, as we call them, that a base tan is protective.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: 59%, that's kind of shocking to me.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: 37% said they would use sunscreen, but only if somebody nagged them.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: I guess that's their mother because these people are pretty young.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: 28% believe that getting a tan is more important than preventing skin cancer.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yikes! And then 30% of them say looking good now is worth it, even if I look worse later.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: I can only laugh because they they have never experienced later, right?
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: These are teenagers and and young adults.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: So weigh in for just a minute on this survey and these survey results.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we'll we'll have to follow up with them when later comes and see what their opinion still is.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: When they're getting Moe surgeries and getting things burned off their face.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's so true.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: Even though it's tough, I mean, I still try to look at it with a glass kind of half-full perspective, right?
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: In the sense of there's still work to be done and opportunity to constantly educate in this space.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: And that's, you know, what the survey to me is just a reminder of that.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: That, you know, each successive generation, each each crop of people needs to be re-educated in terms of what we're learning and what we continue to re-remind ourselves, right?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: The research hasn't hasn't uncovered new evidence over these years about the importance of protecting yourself and the role that photoprotection has in preventing skin cancer and skin aging.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, but you know, we're none of us know that when we're born.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: So we just have to keep being reminded and we just have to have that continuous cadence of education and and that right messaging that resonates because it's so so easy to be lost.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's really true.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: And as a dermatologist, you know, we harp on it all day long, and it just sometimes you feel like a broken record.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: But hopefully some of it, some of it starts getting through, penetrat, penetrating in there.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna talk about the record.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: I say that record.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: You're a broken record, but that record's still new to those new patients, right?
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: Those 100%.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: That new generation.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: So we just have to keep we still have to keep playing it.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: I I think we've done better with tanning beds now.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: I see a you know that a little light in the end of the tunnel on that.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think people are less likely to do that than they were.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: Boy, when my kids were in high school, which is a long time ago, 20 years.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: They were all tanning.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody was in tanning beds, and I I don't see as much of that now.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them have even changed their business model to spray tan, and which is great.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: So we're we're we're we're making some progress, I think, there.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: I want to talk about obviously sun protection and sunscreens, because you're such an incredible resource on that.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think if we kind of kick it really basic to start, looking at the differences between the chemical and the mineral sunscreens, and what is the difference in the way that they actually actually impact UV light in terms of, I think we routinely think of one as being an absorber and one of being as a reflector, but I think that maybe is an oversimplification.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, it's it's a question that again comes up all the time and it's a source of lots of different aspects of confusion.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: So just chemical or organic, or physical or inorganic or mineral, those are the classes of actives that sunscreens use to be efficacious, right?
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: To prevent UV light from hitting and damaging the skin.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: So uh the chemical or organic filters, even even that name in itself is confusing to people in terms of that's just organic chemistry, right?
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: Those are the molecules that absorb light.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: So they take the photons, they take them in, and they dissipate the energy before it hits your skin.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: The minerals are crystals, right?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: They're rocks, they're electron-dense particulates that do the same thing.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: They prevent the electrons from hitting your skin, but they must be formulated in a completely different way.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: So, in that sense, both can be used to make effective sunscreens, but the sunscreens that they can be used in can be very different from a solution of organic chemicals that works in, you know, pH and solvent to the minerals that have to be dispersed and optimally stabilized.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: So there, you know, lots of different formulation chemistry approaches to make them work, but in the end, they both are actives used to make effective sunscreen and green, you know, sunscreen formulations that work essentially the same way.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: Chemicals absorb, the minerals absorb and scatter and reflect, and they have those different cosmetic properties.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so in the end, you know, you can this is why you get a huge array of different products with different feel and form, but in the end, they can all work very well to prevent the UV light from hitting your skin.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: So we talk a lot now about the longer wavelengths of light, visible light and infrared or near infrared in particular.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, we know that they cause photoaging, they also cause hyperpigmentation, especially in the darker skin types.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: So just talking about how to best protect from that.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: But the question that I get asked, and I still think it's not clear in my own mind, do mineral sunscreens protect at all against longer wavelengths of light out of the UV spectrum?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, this is a fascinating area.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's an evolving area of research.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's certainly relevant to people in different ways.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I understand why people have lots of questions in the space.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: So the chemical sunscreens obviously are in the UV spectrum.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: They're not absorbing physical, I mean absorbing uh visible light or infrared.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so but the go ahead with about the mineral sunscreens.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so mineral sunscreens can, right?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: In the essence that if you if you can see them on your skin, then they're impacting visible light, right?
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: So they're affecting the way visible light interacts with your skin.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: So they're changing it.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: And uh the most often way you see it is that white or you know purplish cast of reflection.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: So they they are able to impact that part of the spectrum.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: What's necessary, what's necessary for each individual, what's necessary for each individual to achieve their desired outcomes, that's where the research is actively pursuing right now to figure that out.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: Gotcha.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: And what about iron oxides and the tinted sunscreens?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because we always, as dermatologists, are told, you know, you have to have iron oxides to protect against visible light.
• 9:05
  unknown: Right.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where a lot of the clinical studies are, right?
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: Where there's you know a formula with iron oxide that got a certain shade was able to deliver, you know, protective benefit against you know some sun-exacerbated condition.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: So that that's out there, and yeah, even the same way, right?
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: The the iron oxides tint the formula, they provide color, so they show you that they're working against visible light.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: They change the color on your skin, especially if you use them at a high enough concentration or high enough density on the skin.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: Again, uh, the fascinating part is that just having iron oxide is that enough?
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's iron oxide is another ingredient that's not necessarily simple.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's a blend of different pigments with different shades.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it's more than just concentration that can drive the efficacy of that of that formula.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: So we often get asked similar questions in terms of does your formula have 2% or 3% or 5% iron oxide?
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: And you say, well, you know, either the answer is no, but it's also is that what are you looking for in that formula?
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Is it just concentration?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: And again, active research in that area to figure out what's the right shade, what's the right blend, is it usable, how does it achieve the benefit people are looking for.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: And aren't there different colors of iron oxides?
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, yellow, red, and black.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: So all dependent on the oxidation status and you know, the particulate size and shape.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: So all of that, you know, will blend together to ultimately provide formulation efficacy.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's so it's more than just ingredient presence.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: You have to look for how it's incorporated into the formulation, just like all other things in sun carrots.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's fascinatingly complicated.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, fascinatingly complicated.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: And talking about the mineral sunscreens, again, in terms of, you know, how do you make them aesthetically pleasing?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because we all remember and even know some products still in the marketplace that aren't that aesthetically pleasing.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: But it seems now that there's all these sort of disappearing mineral sunscreens, if I could call them that, where you put them on and then you can hardly see them, are we losing efficacy with that?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: Or I mean, I hope not.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's some strategies out there.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: Still as efficacious.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think there's some strategies out there that you may not get the most efficacy if you're, you know, you're cutting back on the mineral or you're changing uh the load of solids in the formula to make it cosmetically elegant.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: But but overall, if you know, like for like, you know, you can use different materials, we have different formulation chemistries available to us now, and we're always innovating in that space to make them more elegant, right?
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: To make them more usable, and the more usable and likable they are, the better results people are going to get.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: And what about really uh darker skin types?
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of times the they have a hard time with they're the ones who need them the most, of course, the sunscreens with iron oxides, but sometimes those colors don't quite work on the really dark skin types.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they're the they're the least suitable.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, all the research shows us that, and you know, everybody's eyes can tell them that.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so yeah, that's where a lot of a lot of the research is also going in terms of the material chemistry and again new formulations to make mineral sunscreens more inclusive and accessible because you know, as as we give we can we use more and more minerals now, there's more and more interest in mineral formulas due to you know news, whether that be real or fake, there's still more interest in that part of the category.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: So they those those solutions need to be more accessible.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and more amenable to large populations.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I I do want to talk about the chemical sunscreens and the the studies that were done on chemical sunscreens, because of course that's the kind of thing that gets picked up in the news and in the social media, it's all over about the absorption of chemical sunscreens.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe just how do we deal with that as dermatologists and maybe give a little bit of the background about those maximal use studies that were done.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that those were pretty a lot of sunscreen was put on the patients in those studies.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and if you know, if Gen Z, if that's their first introduction to what a sunscreen is all about, no wonder they're you know No wonder they're not using them.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, in terms of in terms of the where sunscreens are and the regulation and the safety, it's it's again a fascinating time.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, the FDA is looking at a way to modernize the approval process for sunscreen and sunscreen ingredients.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: So from from that standpoint, um, there's still a lot of you know confusion of you know how we're interpreting the processes that need to get modernized for people to ultimately do what we want, right?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: To have better, more modern, more efficacious, and and more accessible sunscreens for everybody.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: But the process to get there is long and complicated and full of uh maybe less intuitive parts that that don't resonate with consumers.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, one of those being the must study or the maximum use trial, where you know, in essence, the design is really easy, right?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: They want to they want to figure out what's the worst possible scenario of people using these products, which can be chronic products in the sense of like people using sunscreens over their entire lifetime to protect themselves as as appropriate.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, what's the worst, the worst possible scenario?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's you know, using it in maximal quantities over and over again throughout a day, but um it's that's certainly not relevant to the way people actually use can use the products.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: But but that's the idea, is to come up with this super exaggerated worst case scenario.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: And if that, you know, once we can prove that safe, then everything less than that will be also safe.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then unfortunately, they found that under those maximal use conditions, the sunscreens were absorbed, many of the UV filters were absorbed.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: So that kind of threw everything on its head.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then, like, could where where are we left?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, where well, how do we talk to patients about that?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's really difficult.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure what you mean by modernizing the process because I almost look at it as a physician or clinicians who are like we're going backwards.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because now sunscreens that used to be considered grass, generally regarded as safe and effective, are non-grass because the FDA is not happy with the degree of scientific study that we have on those sunscreens.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: So it makes it more difficult for us to talk to patients, obviously, under these new scenarios.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I can I certainly, you know, with the questions we get as well, understand how it's the feeling, right?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: Going backwards.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so you know, it in my mind's going on here.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's more a sense of how how we are maybe need to tear down the foundation a little bit, right, to rebuild it so it's it's stronger moving forward.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: But it certainly causes lots of questions and lots of uncertainty in terms of how these you know products with this with this very, very long, extensive you know, experience with human use and safety.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: We've been using them for decades.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Get tested moving forward and what's the appropriate models.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I think there's a fascinating opportunity to modernize in the sense of how we understand clinical toxicology and safety and all of it, but that that pathway is extremely hard to navigate.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately, sunscreens will get caught in the crosshairs of the ambiguity of what we need to do to be appropriate moving forward.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think there'll be a you know, for lack of a better word, a guinea pig moving forward in terms of what is the right way that we can modernize the process.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: And hopefully, you know, hopefully within my lifetime we'll get to a really good place.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe we'll get a new UV filter approved in the US.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's been decades since we've had anything new come into our marketplace, which is really challenging.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's why so many dermatologists go to Europe and bring sunscreens back because they've got all those great UVA filters there that we just don't have access to.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it's interesting times for sure.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's other things that I think are of interest to dermatologists in terms of protecting the skin, and I think antioxidants is one of those.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: We all recommend antioxidants for our patients sort of routinely, but sunscreen companies are now putting antioxidants into sun screens and sun protecting products.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: So talk a little bit about that because I think that's a really another way to give a sort of like an extra layer of protection.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh another, you know, really good question, and for me, that's another fascinating area of research, which we'll again continue to pick up over the next uh many years because there's active research still going on now, and like you said, they've become kind of uh an integral part of sunscreens is to carry antioxidants because we know, you know, along with you know the DNA damage process and the rest of it that underpins the sun's transformation from normal skin to skin cancer, there's a big oxidative stress component.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so whether it's the light itself or other environmental stressors that your skin is is faced with during the course of your day, they all do some sort of oxidative stress to the skin.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: So antioxidants can really help alleviate that, and that's what you know, studies are routinely showing.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: And now the question is what's the right level and type of antioxidant?
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's a plethora of antioxidants out there and they're not ever equal.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: No, are there ever?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: You've got all your vitamin antioxidants, you've got the botanicals.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: I see a lot of cosmetic companies going in with botanicals.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, vitamin C is one of those fussy molecules that's not all that much fun to play with, I guess.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think the polyphenols and things like that make a lot of sense.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um any comments on the oral approaches?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're all using a lot of helioplex in our practices.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like the polypodium.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Polypodium leucotomas, yeah.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean the the evidence suggests that it can also help supplement your oxidative resiliency from within, right?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, there's there's always a good correlative to having a you know a balanced diet and good nutrition to to achieving you know pretty much good health outcomes across the board.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think skin health is any different than that.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, overwhelmingly, what we see is you know a good diet isn't gonna save you from sunburn, though.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: A good diet isn't gonna save you from the effects of intentional sun exposure or you know, going out and repeatedly, you know, face tanning to try to give yourself uh the the effect you want of resiliency over the summer.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: We I you know it's not the strategy you would recommend.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I um I don't think you know those things are are certainly complimentary.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I wouldn't necessarily recommend against it, but they're not a replacement for being smart with you know sun-safe behaviors.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh it it's a challenge.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we also rely a little bit too heavily on sunscreens.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think we have to also get the message out about sun protective clothing and uh wearing hats and obviously glasses to protect the eyes, because we do rely heavily on sunscreens.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Puts a puts a lot of weight on the shoulder of people like you who are developing these products.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's some of the toughest, toughest data to deal with, right?
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: Where people would utilize sunscreens to be sun stupid, and that's not the intent of the of the product.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, and it's also not um, you know, you offer more safety options, those aren't an excuse then to you know use your number one safety factor, which is your awareness in your brain, right?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: So use that, and then all the safety mechanisms will complement that quite nicely.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's so true.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's a hard, it's a hard thing to teach people, but it it's definitely true.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, kind of talking a little bit about UVA, because UVA is, I think, one of the places where we have the biggest gap.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: And as I mentioned, we have so many UVA filters in Europe that we don't have in the U.S.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that you guys have stabilized avolbenzone and it's been very effective.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe just talking a little bit.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that maybe most dermatologists are aware that many sunscreen filters, the chemical sunscreens, are actually unstable in sunlight.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it requires a little bit of, as I call it, wizard wizardry on the part of formulators to you, it's it's sort of counterintuitive because you're putting, you're dealing with something you want to use to protect, but it also has degradation when it's exposed to light.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe just kind of talking through the chemistry there in terms of what's going on with the UV filters.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and we ask a lot from sunscreens, right?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's a fascinating category because you have a molecule that's going to absorb radiation and then needs to dissipate that energy somehow.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: So it needs it needs to do it right, and then uh, you know, the different chemistries absorb in different places of the spectrum.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: But so Avobenzone is one of those.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it is our chemical UVA filter right now.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's the one we have, it's the workhorse for all of our sunscreen products.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, if it's not super happy, it It can lose its efficacy over time.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it's important to stabilize it.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: And you do that, you know, through a you know a few different techniques, but you can look at it that it's stable, and that's what Helioplex innovation was about.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's about stabilizing avobenzones, that it has a way to remain effective the entire duration of your sun exposure so that you're not losing efficacy over time.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: So modern sunscreens, certainly helioplex sunscreens, are meant to be last through your exposure, and then you still have to follow the directions, reapply every 80 minutes, which is really governed on best safety practices, right?
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: That in terms of people don't realize if they rub off their sunscreen inadvertently or they towel or they're sweating or they're swimming, you know, really that's where you you lose your sunscreen.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: You rub it off, you remove it on accident.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: So if you reapply more frequently in general, you'll you'll miss less spots and you'll be less subject to getting burned in those areas you forgot.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's interesting.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: So most of the time the sunscreen's getting rubbed off, and I suppose sweated off as well.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: But a lot of them are sweat resistant and water resistant.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and I'll say, like, you know, having having a daughter, there's no sunscreen on the planet that can resist her rubbing her eyes or taking her goggles on and off out of the pool.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just uh those high touch areas, those high rub areas that it's always a challenge, right?
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where the it'll always there's plenty of room for innovation.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk for just one second about vitamin D, because you made an interesting comment when you and I were talking before, and we were talking about the UVB, which we know is important for the conversion of vitamin D to its active form.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: And we were saying that's interesting that most of the studies looking at vitamin D for people who use sunscreen, like sort of on a regular daily basis, don't show that there is vitamin D deficiency in that group of patients.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: So it's again seems a little bit counterintuitive because you would think that a good UVB filter would block vitamin D synthesis.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, from the chemistry perspective, it does, right?
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: It prevents those photons that do the same thing from getting to the skin.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: So if it does that, then you know it's very um reasonable that it would slow down the conversion of vitamin D in the skin.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: But that's, you know, when you go into the human clinical setting, that's what you see.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: It slows it down, right?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: Just like anyone will still get a sunburn if you use too little sunscreen or you stay out there too.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: You stay out too long, it's gonna be the same for vitamin D.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna slow it down.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: So when you use sunscreen in terms of sun safety, meaning that you're using it to be safer in sun exposure settings, you're still gonna get vitamin D.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: You're still gonna get some conversion, you're still gonna get the benefits of being active and healthy and outdoor, but you're gonna remove some of the negatives of certainly what we hope for, you know, severe sunburn.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: But over time, you know, that that's that's where the that's where the sunscreen benefit really comes in.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: If you look at vitamin D deficiency in terms of sun avoidance or in terms of sunscreen as a way to you know avoid all sun exposure, then yeah, you that's where you'll see some potential deficiencies where again, healthy diet and some other compensation mechanisms like supplementation would be most appropriate.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: So it will I guess you're right, it's just the filter's only as good as the filters is.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: So it won't last forever and won't completely stop the conversion.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because the data's so interesting when you look at it.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um maybe just one final thing, sort of looking on the horizon of sun protection and and sun care.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, what do you see on the horizon?
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: Is there anything super interesting that might become a reality anytime soon?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm still fascinated, you know, and still greatly encouraged.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, despite the results of the survey saying we got a lot of work to do, you know, it's encouraging that we we still have a lot of drive to do that work.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's it's a fascinating time.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's always a fascinating time for sunscreens.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's been evolving, it's going to continue to evolve.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: We've got new technologies elsewhere in the world that we're that are poised to be ready to be offered to different markets if we can figure out a way to do it or when we can figure out a way to do it.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'll say when, not if.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a matter of time, in my opinion.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then once that opens, hopefully we have a nice pathway to continued innovation, uh, you know, deeper understanding of how to make sunscreens more enjoyable and easier to use, because if we can do that, then it's they're going to be more efficacious.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: And more people will use them.
• 26:34
  unknown: Yeah.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's a big barrier.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much for sharing your expertise.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: I really do appreciate it.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: I hope everybody has enjoyed this episode.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: And check us out at Sciences Skincare Summit.com again if you're interested in learning more about skincare.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks again, Josh.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: Have a great day.