Latest / The MeatEater Podcast / Ep. 785: Another Attack On Our Public Lands

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Ep. 785: Another Attack On Our Public Lands · The MeatEater Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Okay, ladies and gentlemen, we have a special emergency FOP.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: This has dedicated to all the listeners out there who
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: stay we should just stay out of politics. Join today
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: by my friend Jeremy Romero, who's a hunter, conservationist and
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: serves with the National Wildlife Federation. And Jeremy is here
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: to talk about kind of what I view to be
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: like one of the most I do. Like, I'm trying
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: to think choose my words carefully here. Cynical, creative, and
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: kind of like a little bit like of an exploitive.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: Now explain why I'm using these words. A cynical, exploitive
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  Speaker 1: public lands bill that has emerged without a lot of
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: fanfare and without a lot of reporting. If you, if
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: you follow the news you've been, you've seen that we've
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: suffered another a number of conservation setbacks coming out of
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: the Trump administration where undoing the roleless rule. Okay, that's
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: going on. We had we'd put the Ambler Road, building
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: a big industrial corridor into Alaska's Brooks Range that had
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: again temporarily put to bed. Ambler Road is back on
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: the table in order to allow a foreign mining company
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  Speaker 1: to drill and export a bunch of mineral wealth out
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  Speaker 1: of Alaska and create a two hundred and fifty mile
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  Speaker 1: industrial corridor going into one of our last vestiges of wilderness.
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  Speaker 1: We have another phenomenal piece of wilderness called the Arctic
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  Speaker 1: National Wildlife Refuge. We learned a couple of days ago
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  Speaker 1: that they're they're looking to open up and reissue drilling leases.
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  Speaker 2: In anwar.
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  Speaker 1: There was a lot of resource management plans, Bureau of
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  Speaker 1: Land Management resource management plans that just got undone, so Montana, Alaska,
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  Speaker 1: North Dakota. So these were management plans that many stakeholders
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: came together. They served a lot of interests of hunters
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  Speaker 1: and anglers that got thrown out the window. Okay, the
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  Speaker 1: aim for everything we're talking about, what we're going to
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: talk about in a minute, The aim here is to
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: be able to a push by the administration to increase
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: resource extraction and industrialization. If you remember, back before a
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: lot of this stuff started brewing, a lot of this
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: stuff was whispers last June. But last June we saw
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: perhaps one of the most direct assaults on public lands,
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: and that was Utah Senator Mike Lee's pushed to sell
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: off a few million acres of public lands that got
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  Speaker 1: enormous pushback. I would say, like enormous bipartisan pushback. We
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: had seen that happen. Again, what year was it the
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  Speaker 1: Chaf's one, Jared, I'm sorry, do you remember what year
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: Jason Chafis proposal which was remarkably similar.
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  Speaker 2: Twenty seventeen sounds right, yeah, twenty seventeen. I think I
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  Speaker 2: was right.
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  Speaker 1: Around twenty seventeen, there was another proposal to sell millions
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  Speaker 1: of acres of public land that was met with enormous
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  Speaker 1: bipartisan pushback.
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  Speaker 2: The media.
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  Speaker 1: Seemed to be that the national media seemed to be
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  Speaker 1: expo surprised by the fact that Hunter's co laced around
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  Speaker 1: pushback on that issue that was by a Utah lawmaker
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  Speaker 1: named Jason Chafits Senator Mike Lee. Just in June twenty
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  Speaker 1: twenty five brought out a new plan to sell off
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  Speaker 1: millions of acres that had different sort of code words.
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  Speaker 2: You know.
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  Speaker 1: I find that these plans are a lot of this legislation,
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  Speaker 1: and we'll get into this in greater detail with Jeremy.
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  Speaker 1: A lot of the anti public lands legislation, anti wilderness
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  Speaker 1: aarrea legislation will carry like a a it'll carry fashionable buzzwords. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: So one of Mike Lee's early versions of the sell
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  Speaker 1: off was like, was couched in this language around affordable housing.
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  Speaker 1: But then when you look at the details of the bill,
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  Speaker 1: it didn't really do much to address affordable housing. Before
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  Speaker 1: it was in twenty seventeen, it was like extra or
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: excess public lands. We have excess public lands. We're going
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  Speaker 1: to get rid of some of them. The bill we're
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: going to talk about now. It uses another currently fashionable
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  Speaker 1: buzzword in order to accomplish something that really doesn't do
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  Speaker 1: much to serve the buzzword that it's being marketed under.
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  Speaker 1: But going back to June, this big sell off push
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  Speaker 1: was pulled, it was defeated. When that happened, a lot
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  Speaker 1: of people I know in the conservation space were like,
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  Speaker 1: We're cautious about declaring it a victory. They're like, that
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  Speaker 1: was a we want to battle. We didn't win the war.
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  Speaker 1: This will come back up very quickly. One might think
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  Speaker 1: that Senator Lee, like it was kind of a bruising
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  Speaker 1: on that. One might have thought he might retreat from
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  Speaker 1: the idea altogether of kind of weakening protections.
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  Speaker 2: But but but he hasn't.
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  Speaker 1: He's he's he has a he's committed to the idea
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  Speaker 1: of opening up, of weakening public lands protections, opening up
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  Speaker 1: undeveloped lands to development.
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  Speaker 2: That just that's where he is. That's his commitment. Uh.
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  Speaker 1: So we're looking at a new bill here that was
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  Speaker 1: introduced on October second, and this is the one I
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  Speaker 1: was saying that just hasn't, like, for whatever reason, hasn't
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  Speaker 1: received a bunch of news. And I think it's because
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  Speaker 1: it's entering an area that's quite clouded with all these
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  Speaker 1: other things that I laid out, the role this rule
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  Speaker 1: Ambler Road and why are resource management plans? So this
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  Speaker 1: one's kind of flown a little bit under the radar.
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  Speaker 1: And I've asked Jeremy Romero to come on. He was
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  Speaker 1: the one that told me about it. I asked him
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: to come on and explain to me and explain to
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  Speaker 1: our listeners what the Borderlands Conservation Act is all about.
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  Speaker 1: And it ain't about conservation. So Jeremy, can you can
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  Speaker 1: you talk people through what the Borderlands Conservation Act is, like,
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  Speaker 1: what is it at face value?
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  Speaker 2: And what is it actually about? And then we'll get
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  Speaker 2: into some details.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, you bet, Steve, Thanks for having me on to
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  Speaker 3: talk about this issue. You know, I think you said
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  Speaker 3: it brilliantly. It's a it's an attack on public LANs.
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  Speaker 3: You know, Senator Lee, I think really took a stab
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  Speaker 3: at at undermining public lands when we went through the
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  Speaker 3: reconciliation process, and you know, the large effort to sell
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: off public lands, and essentially this is this is no different.
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  Speaker 3: So in October, early October, Senator Lee introduced the Borderlands
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  Speaker 3: Conservation Act with you know, in a nutshell, that bill
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  Speaker 3: is focused on border security. Again, you said, and use
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  Speaker 3: the phrase of kind of these these sexy terms, right,
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  Speaker 3: these terms that are popular in society today, and border
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  Speaker 3: security is one of those. And this bill is aimed
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  Speaker 3: at at just that increasing border security along the northern
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  Speaker 3: and southern borders in the United States, kind of creating
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  Speaker 3: these hundred mile buffer zones in the northern and southern
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  Speaker 3: borders and basically creates and gives Department of Homeland Security
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  Speaker 3: the authority to manage these roads and an effort to
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  Speaker 3: strengthen border security. And it does it by a number
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  Speaker 3: of different measures that we'll talk about this in this conversation.
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  Speaker 3: Really those measures, in my opinion, undermined the importance of
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  Speaker 3: public lands and the protections forwarded to public lands, like
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  Speaker 3: things like the nineteen sixty nineteen sixty four Wilderness Act.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, which are these points should we jump into first?
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  Speaker 1: Here?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, let's just talk about this hundred mile buffer kind
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  Speaker 3: of the rationale behind, you know, inventoring these illegal roads
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  Speaker 3: and trails.
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  Speaker 1: So yeah, I want to hit that because when we
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  Speaker 1: talk about one hundred mile buffer, this will impact. You
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: have to appreciate like what we're talking about. So I'm
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: gonna tell people something obvious here. If we're talking about
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  Speaker 1: if you look at a map of the United States
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  Speaker 1: and then magined coming in from one hundred miles on
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  Speaker 1: all of our borders north and south and Alaska, Okay,
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  Speaker 1: you're taking in wilderness areas in Washington, You're taking in
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  Speaker 1: wilderness areas in Idaho, You're taking wilderness area is in Montana.
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  Speaker 1: Jumping eastward from there, where this this grabs hold of
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  Speaker 1: all of the boundary waters area. It would come into
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  Speaker 1: areas in Maine National Parks, wilderness areas in California, wilderness
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  Speaker 1: areas in Arizona, wilderness areas in New Mexico, Big Ben
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  Speaker 1: National Park in Texas, Tungus Wilderness Area in Alaska, wrangle
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  Speaker 1: Saint Elias Park and Preserve in Alaska. So this is
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  Speaker 1: a I mean this you can one hand go like, oh,
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  Speaker 1: it's a one hundred mile buffer, but you need to
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  Speaker 1: appreciate what we're talking about when we talk about a
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  Speaker 1: one hundred mile buffer coming in from our borders, like
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  Speaker 1: it's it's grabbing onto a huge swaths of land.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly right. And I'll note that the one
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  Speaker 3: you know, the one type or the types of land jurisdictions,
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  Speaker 3: that this bill is not specific to our tribal land,
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  Speaker 3: state lands, and private lands. Other than that, it's take
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  Speaker 3: can you know, the stroke of a paint brush within
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  Speaker 3: that hundred mile buffer, And any land that's administered by
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  Speaker 3: the federal government under d o I and U s
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  Speaker 3: d A is subject to these measures in this bill.
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  Speaker 3: So as you mentioned everything, everything administered by d U I,
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  Speaker 3: by us DA, all those national parks, all those uh
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  Speaker 3: you know, forest Service units, all those b l M
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  Speaker 3: Field offices, wilderness study areas, wilderness like, they are all
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  Speaker 3: subject to the measures in this bill, all within that
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  Speaker 3: hunter mile buffer, and those are there's a couple of
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  Speaker 3: other key points when we get to the wilderness portion
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  Speaker 3: of this that I'll also I'll make I'll make sure
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  Speaker 3: to distinguish. But you know, basically within this hunter mile
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  Speaker 3: buffer on the northern and southern boundaries, UH Department of
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  Speaker 3: Homeland Security is going to work in coordination with d
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  Speaker 3: U I and U s d A too, inventory what
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  Speaker 3: they would consider illegal roads and trails that are been
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  Speaker 3: that have been created by illegal border crossings. And that's
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  Speaker 3: important because one, how do we herman if in fact
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  Speaker 3: a road or a trail is created by illegal border crossing,
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  Speaker 3: and if these agencies, if these land management agencies determine
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  Speaker 3: that in fact these roads were created by illegal border crossing,
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  Speaker 3: then it's providing DHS Department Homeland Security the authority to
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  Speaker 3: then create and manage these roads as navigable roads for
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  Speaker 3: the sake of border security. So installing infrastructure technology that
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  Speaker 3: can monitor border security and illegal border crossings and put
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  Speaker 3: and prevent those from happening in the future. And so
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  Speaker 3: it really opens up this can of worms of you know,
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  Speaker 3: deciding whether or not these roads actually are illegal, and
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  Speaker 3: whether or not these trails are illegal and if so,
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  Speaker 3: be able to be managed, and it doesn't really consider
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  Speaker 3: the impacts to developing these roads. You know, currently a
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  Speaker 3: lot of these agencies go through travel management plans where
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  Speaker 3: they tory the road use system and determine whether or
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  Speaker 3: not these roads are navigable or innavigable, and create this
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  Speaker 3: kind of access plan, this map that you that I
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  Speaker 3: that others can then access public plans, and they do
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  Speaker 3: a pretty meticulous job of being able to lay out
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  Speaker 3: this footprint of what's considered navigable. Right, you want to
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  Speaker 3: you want to protect wildlife, you want to you know,
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  Speaker 3: protect wildlife habitat, there's cultural resource protection when it comes
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  Speaker 3: to managing these roads, and so allowing for this kind
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  Speaker 3: of unregulated development of roads really I think puts a
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  Speaker 3: lot of important things in the crosshairs along this buffer.
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  Speaker 3: And and like you hinted to you, I mean one
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  Speaker 3: hundred mile buffer to me, is is outrageous, right, I
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: mean we're talking from the southern the southern border to
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  Speaker 3: almost Tucson, Arizona. Right. It encapsulates a lot of country
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  Speaker 3: that they are claiming be important for border security. And
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  Speaker 3: in my perspective, I think it's a little outrageous to
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  Speaker 3: think that a hundred mile buffer and all the different
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  Speaker 3: types of land jurisdictions and land management UH land jurisdictions
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  Speaker 3: within that hunter mile buffer are really going to lend
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: to increasing border security.
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  Speaker 1: So I have struggle a little bit just to understand
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  Speaker 1: even the logic there that it'd be that if you
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  Speaker 1: were to determine if someone were to determine that a
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  Speaker 1: road that an illegal road, say on BLM Land and
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  Speaker 1: illegal road on BLM Land, or like an unregistered road
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  Speaker 1: on BLM Land, or an illegal trail on BLM Land,
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  Speaker 1: that they determined to have been utilized by illegal immigrants
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  Speaker 1: or for my for for illegal immigration of some part,
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  Speaker 1: that that would then give you justification to go in
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  Speaker 1: and make it into a road.
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  Speaker 2: Wilders exactly.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, in wilderness and non wilderness. It's it's mind boggling
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  Speaker 3: to me to to think about how these how the
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  Speaker 3: mandates in this bill and and those land management agencies,
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  Speaker 3: how they will come to the conclusion saying that these
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: trails and these roads were created by illegal border crossing.
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: You know, how how do you determine that? Right?
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  Speaker 1: Like?
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  Speaker 3: That's I think that's kind of the big question I
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: have in my mind is you know, when it comes
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  Speaker 3: to a trail, for instance, I mean you and I
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: hunt a lot where we're in places where you know, livestock,
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  Speaker 3: whether that's a you know, a grazing allotment or what
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  Speaker 3: have you, or in a lot of areas we tend
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  Speaker 3: to occupy. You know, if cattle are utilizing a trail
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  Speaker 3: that they've created, and you know, let's just say there's
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: a boot track on there, does that mean that that
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  Speaker 3: road was used and created by illegals and now it
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  Speaker 3: gets to be managed by Department of Homeland Security and
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  Speaker 3: in a fashion that allows them to access you know,
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  Speaker 3: these these areas. If a road was created by illegal
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: OHV use, or it was once determined to be navigable
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  Speaker 3: and has since been deemed innavigable, so it's no longer
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  Speaker 3: accessible to the public, how do you determine that that
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  Speaker 3: road was road was created by by illegal border crossing
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  Speaker 3: and then be able to reopen that road?
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  Speaker 2: Right?
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  Speaker 3: How The question I have next, next to what I
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: just pointed out, is then how do you enforce these
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  Speaker 3: roads to be used for the intent in which the
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: bill describes and not for all this extracurricular activity like
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: illegal OHV use. I think there's I think there's a
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  Speaker 3: bigger question to be had, which is who's gonna who's
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  Speaker 3: gonna front the cost for developing these roads. I think
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  Speaker 3: right now, when you look at the deferred maintenance to
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: agencies like uh for service in BLM, there's hundreds of
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  Speaker 3: thousands of miles of roads that are deteriorating because these
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: agencies don't have the resources to manage the roads that
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: they have considered and deemed to be navigable through these
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: travel management plans. And we're asking we're asking these agencies
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  Speaker 3: to create more roads and take away from roads that
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: they've already seemed to be accessible and the management and
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: the resources you know that they need to manage those roads.
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  Speaker 3: There's a lot to unpack there, and so I think
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: there's a lot of questions, and I think the bill
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  Speaker 3: doesn't do a great job of defining how these actions
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: are going to be conducted. And those are part of
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: the part of the many problems I have with the bill.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, in a minute, let's get into a little bit
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: of the how these bills come up, where they leave
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: so many details up to one's imagination, and that in
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: some ways was attributable to the sinking of the sell
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: off plan, where the sell off plan went through a
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: handful of versions. They had these permutations, and in the
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: end someone realized, and it was pointed out, and this
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: was acknowledged by the office that put it forward. It
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: was pointed out even though this was put together as
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: this idea of addressing affordable housing, and the way the
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: bill was written, you couldn't have prevented foreign governments from
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: buying the land. Right, So you wind up in this
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: thing like you're saying it's one thing, but then you're
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: not clarifying with enough level of detail about how it
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: would be determined. I would be able to take it
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: a little more seriously. If someone was talking about a
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: three mile buffer, a five mile buffer, a ten mile buffer,
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: I'd be able to look at it and be like, yeah,
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: I'm willing to at least take this at face value.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: But when you've gotten one hundred miles north of the
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: border with Mexico or one hundred miles south of the
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: border in Idaho, like, at that point, I don't think
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: we're talking about immigration anymore, and so it opens up
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: this question of like, what is it really about. If
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: it was a five mile thing, I'd be like, Okay,
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: this is about immigration. One hundred miles is about something
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: entirely different, and we'll get to that in a minute.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: But let's get into a couple of these components. One
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: of the ways that they're trying to sell this again
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: couching it in language that anyone would agree with. This
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: is like a tactic, right. You say, like, oh, border security, Well,
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: who wouldn't want border security? Right, must be a good
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: idea here. They're like, hey, this will help with search
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: and rescue. Explain that component.
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's important to note that the search and
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: rescue piece is basically also tied to this amending the
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: Wilderness Act.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: Okay, so I'm out of order. Then let's get into
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: amending the Wilderness Act.
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: You bet so. A big component of this bill is
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: to amend the nineteen six or nineteen sixty nineteen sixty
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: four excuse me, Wilderness Preservation Act to allow for the
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: use of developing roads using motorized mechanized travel of under
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: the hospice of search and rescue and border security, so
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: basically allowing the things that the Wilderness Act prevents for
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: the sake of border security. What's important to note is
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: that when it comes to search and rescue in wilderness areas,
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: a lot of the land use management agencies and local
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: law enforcement, local search and rescue already have plans in
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: place to one prevent more than is intended to when
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: it comes to you know, occupying and being in wilderness
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: areas to conduct those those search and rescue operations. So
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: they can already go in and use motorized mechanized travel
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: if it's deemed that they absolutely have to for the
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: sake of human life. They have these plans in place,
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: and they can go in there and they can fly
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: a helicopter, they can take a uh, you know, like
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: a gurney that's that's got a wheel on it, they
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: can travel in on potentially on four wheelers, or use
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: their motorized types of transportation in certain circumstances. These plans
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: are already coordinated and developed with those land use management agencies,
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: local law enforcement, search and rescue. And so what this
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: is trying to do is a you know, amend the
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: Wilderness Preservation Act to create those roads, to codify the
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: use of motorized mechanized operation in wilderness Act, which to
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: me is a really slippery slope. And earlier you mentioned
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: like how these bills are written and how kind of
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: things let's just say fly under the radar may not
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: be explicitly defined. This is an important piece because this
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: with this section of the bill does not clarify is
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: when it talks about amending the wilderness to create roads
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: motorized use with you know, for the sake of border security,
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: it does not explicitly mention that it's with that it's
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: wilderness areas within the hundred mile buffer, right, It's just
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: it's just amending the Wilderness Preservation Act. So technically it
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: applies to all wilderness areas, you know, aside from those
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: within that hundred mile buffer. So in my mind that
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: means if you can justify that building roads in wilderness
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: areas is for the sake of border security, it can
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: be it can be any wilderness in our country.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: Or building roads is helpful for search and rescue apparently exactly. Yeah, okay,
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: we got into some of the details here. What is
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: your take the earlier I use like a term cynical,
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: and I'm a little I'm not totally happy with word
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: choice on that. But what you see is again and
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: again you see see these things that they're they're they're
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: trying to couch it as one thing, but what they're
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: talking about is something else. Okay, So here it's taking
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: this idea of border security, this idea of search and
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: rescue and and and lo and behold, what does it
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: really come down to? It comes down to like weakening
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: protections on wilderness areas and making it easier to.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: Develop and do road building.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: Uh do you like in your view and your analysis
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: of this, do you do you feel that that's fair?
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: Like it?
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: Do you feel that there really is I hate to
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: use it, but like, is there like a sort of
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: conspiracy of sorts of trying to use whatever tools are applicable,
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: whatever national crises we have, affordable housing, border security, whatever
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: it is, to try to just do anything to weaken
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: protections on wilderness areas and weakened protections on public lands.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: And if that's true, like what is the end game? Like,
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: how does that ultimately get them what they want?
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: I mean I think, you know, from like the conspiracy perspective,
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: it's hard not to think that there's these ulterior motives
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: when it comes to these types of bills and legislation.
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: I mean we've seen time and time, you know, time
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: and time again where individuals like Senator Lee or others
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: just don't have the same perspective of public lands that
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: you and I or others do, and therefore I think
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: their perspective of public LANs is a much more you know,
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: let's just call it an asset driven mindset, where they
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: look at public lands and they see different types of
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: investments that they can return on these assets, right, different
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: types of ways that these lands can be more profitable
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: than they already are than just create open spaces where
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: we can recreate, where we can hunt, where we can fish.
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: And in their minds, I don't believe that this is
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: something that they enjoy seeing and how public lands are
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: used are utilized, and you know, for that reason, I
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: think we've seen these assaults on public lands through different
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: different efforts, the reconciliation processes that you that you meant earlier.
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: And so it's hard for me to think that these
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: bills when I see them, are just focused on what
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: the title of the bill is written as right I have.
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: I can't help but think that there's that there's these
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: these details, that there's these underlying efforts within within the
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: these bills that are aimed at attacking and undermining public
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: lands from multiple perspectives, like getting more access. Therefore you
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: can potentially have non you know, you can have more
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: resource extraction or irresponsible use of public lands. I think
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: it's a slippery slope. And I think they're they're recognizing
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: that they have to be a little bit craftier, a
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: little bit more creative and how they attack public lands.
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: And so you know, you said it, you said it
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: spot on, Like using terms like affordable housing, border security.
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: I think terms that maybe hit hit near and dear
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: to a lot of Americans, you know, lives and homes.
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: Like I do think by trying to create these kind
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: of false narratives, by trying to get people on board
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: for these ideas that really aren't the root of what
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: is intended by these pieces of legislation, I can't help
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: I can't help but think there's there's more to it
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: than than what we're reading.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't want to use too hyperbolic of language here,
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: like like I just want to, you know, acknowledge these
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: things are coming from you know, patriotic people who no
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: doubt love their families and love their communities. It's just
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: we're like ideologically opposed an issue. My view is that
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: undeveloped landscapes are of extreme value and will become more
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: and more valuable over time, and that preserving them. Conserving
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: them comes at no cost to us. They're still there,
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: they will still be there later on. Once as the
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: world gets developed, as the nation gets developed, as our
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: last wildernesses get developed, will burned through an asset and
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: will later regret what we did. And I think that
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: there are some activities hunting, fishing, hiking, those are things
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: that I'm interested in. There are some activities that can
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: go on right now without having adverse impact on these
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: great American assets. So I don't want to when I
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: use the word conspiracy, I don't want to act like
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: someone's objective in putting this forward, that the objective is
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: to be like evil or something. It's just like a
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: different thing. Some people look at undevelop landscape and they
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: see wasted opportunity. I look at undeveloped landscape, and I
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: see an incredible asset in the nation's bank that can
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: bring enjoyment and mental health and physical health to all
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: Americans while we hold it. And it might be h
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: and I know, like without a doubt to me, will
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: be of far more value to future generations than it
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: is to us now. And and in in our in
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: our undeveloped landscapes are at their most valuable state as
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: they sit, right, it's like it's an asset. So yeah,
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: I don't want to put this in terms of of
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: good versus evil. It's like it's like it's an ideological
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: battle with real with real results, like like real things
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: are pivoting on this.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: Okay, what now?
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: And then you see where people put forward pieces of
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: legislation that you know aren't to be taken seriously, like
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: people do it. There's a performative quality to some legislation.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: When there was talk of giving an example, when some
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: guy put forth legislation that would have put Trump on
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: Mount Rushmore, it was performative, right for a lot of
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: people that it was good for a laugh. It sparked
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: a lot of conversation like is there really room on
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: Mount Rushmore? What is Mount Rushmore made of? Where would
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: you put it? What's the history of Mount Rushmore? But
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: in the end, it was like a performative gesture. It
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: was never something that was meant to be advanced and
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: signed into law.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: Right, is this is this like making a statement?
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: Is it trying to like advance an idea that future
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: generations might pick up on?
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: Like what is this? Is this serious?
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: I think it can very well be serious, and I
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: do think it's somewhat performative. I think it's you know,
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: Senator Lee and other co sponsors, you know, diping their
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: their toe in the water to do a temperature check
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: and see how a bill like this is perceived and
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: whether or not it's going to get the support and
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: the attention to gain some traction and potentially move forward.
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: I hope it's it's kind of all smoke no fire
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: for a lot of the reasons that we've been talking about.
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: You know, it's it's interesting when you look at this
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: bill to see who the co sponsors are. And I
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: say that because there's only one co sponsor that's occupying
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: a state that is relative to the language and this bill,
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: and that Senator Cruise out of Texas. You don't see
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: other Republican or Democratic senators along these these border states
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: that are co sponsoring this bill.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: Well, that's funny you mentioned that, because I mean Utahs,
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: it's well outside of the hundred Senator Lee's state of Utahs,
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: it's well outside the buffer. I see your representative from
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: Wyoming sits outside of the buffer. But you're right, Senator
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: Ted Cruz of Texas is has portions of his state
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: in the buffer zone and the very generous buffer zone.
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: That's right, And you don't see individuals like Senator Danes,
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: Senator she He, Senator Rish, like you know, you know,
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: those senators on the northern part of the of the border,
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: those people who you would who you would think if
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: this was an issue that was really important, you would
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: think that the states that are going to be impacted
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: by this legislation would have more of a of a
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: perspective on the bill. Maybe that's a maybe that's a sign, right,
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: Like maybe that's a sign that this this bill really
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: is just kind of an attention seeker and not going
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: to get the traction that or the seriousness that people
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: are going to think when they read it. And for
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: that reason, like maybe that's why those individuals don't, you know,
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: aren't sponsoring the bill. And you know, obviously that's me
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: just being you know, rather presumptuous. But I think when
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: I when I see the lack of those co sponsors,
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: I just have to ask those questions.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: Got it?
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: And what do you think will happen? Like what's the
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: next step for a piece of legislation like this? Like
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: remember that remember that cartoon and your little kid, I'm
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: just a bill on Capitol.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: Hill Like like what uh, like, what's what's next?
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: Well, it was it was refer to the Committee of
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: Energy and Natural Resources. So, amongst all the craziness that's
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: happening in DC right now, this bill has to be
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: put on the calendar by by E and R, by
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: sending E and R. And then once it's there, they
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: have to to listen to the bill and they have
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: to vote on it to pass it out of committee,
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: and then there it goes on its own kind of
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: trajectory to potentially being voted on on the Senate floor.
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: Has to have a house companion. You know, it still
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: has a long route before it's even i would say,
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: remotely considered serious. But the fact that it was introduced
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: is serious enough for me to want to talk to.
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: You about it.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and this will come up under an early and
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: an early person that will get a look at this
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: as Senator Heinrich from New Mexico, who has you know,
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: who represents landscape within this buffer. He's a big oh,
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: you know, like a very informed, very dedicated defender of
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: public lands.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: Like, what's his take on this going to be?
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: Well? I imagine Senator Heinrich that, as you mentioned as
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: a champion for conservation, champion for public lands, somebody who
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: you know gets out on hunts and fish fishes on
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: our public lands. I think when he sees a bill
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: like this, he's gonna ask a lot of questions and
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: he's gonna pick it apart, kind of as we've been
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: picking it apart on this conversation. I don't think a
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: bill like this is going to actually, I know a
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: bill like this is not going to land well with
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: with Senator him Rick. I think it will do a
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: brilliant job of asking those important underlying questions of the
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: intention and rationale of this bill. And you know, with
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: that being said, I hope the result is is the
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: bill doesn't move out of committee and is essentially dead
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: upon arrival.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but it is, man, it's like a very interesting
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: and like I said, I didn't know about it, and
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: you know we were together right around this time when
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: this came out. You're the one that explained it to me,
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: and I thought that regardless of where it lands, and
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: it's it's very early to say, it's a very it's
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: an interesting civics lesson and it's an interesting look into
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: how people are. And it's the point I keep making
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: an interesting look at how people could have a historic
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: extra grind, like a career long set of goals. In
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: this case, if your career long set of goals is
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: to reduce protections on public lands and open up developant
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: and industrialization of wildlands, that's like the career long goal.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: The way in which you can look for opportunities in
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: the national dialogue to be like, oh, that's how I'm
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: going to talk about my perennial issue, and then the
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: conversation changes and there's like a lot of talk about
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: affordable housing.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: Let's say that's how.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about my perennial issue, and then
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of talk about illegal immigration. That's how
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about my perennial issue. And it
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: brings to mind this analogy of that the bottle of
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: the wine stays the same, but you continue to apply
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: a new label onto that wine. And so it's just
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: as it's a fascinating glimpse into the thinking here, I
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: hope listeners like give like start paying more attention to
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: that in the years that are coming, as we continue
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: to have these conversations and thank you Jeremy to come
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: on and explaining this and telling me about it again.
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: I think it's, like I said, if nothing else, is
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: a great civics lesson for people.
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I uh, I really appreciate you letting me come
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: on and talk about the bill. You know, any attack
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: on public land is important to me to get out
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: there and and and talk about and advocate for public
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: lands and the right to hunt and fish and protecting
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: these areas for future generations. So we're going to keep,
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: you know, our eye on this bill. We're going we're
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: going to do our due diligence to to make sure
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: a bill like this doesn't doesn't have a future and
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: you know in the future, you know, keeping keeping ah,
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: you know, keeping a close eye on legislation that comes
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: out and looking at how they are somewhat uh, you know,
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: disguised in different ways. And I recommend people do their
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: their due diligence and look at look at bills, look
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: at legislation, not just for what the title of the
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: legislation is, but what the actual action items in legislation are.
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: And I encourage you to be active. Reach out to
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: you or you know, your congressional members, and you know
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: be be an engaged member of society. I think has
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: the reconciliation process and the public lands sealoff kind of
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: played out, we saw a tremendous amount of support from
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: everybody on both sides of the aisle, you know, whether
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: you whether you hunt and fished or didn't like it.
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: We all came together and pushed back on the public
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: land sealoff and it was an extraordinary thing to see.
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: And I just hope that we can continue to have
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: those shared visions when it comes to pieces of legislation
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: like this. So Steve, again, I think I thank you
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: for letting me come on and talk about this bill,
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: and we'll just keep tracking, keep tracking it.
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: Okay, uh again you're hearing from Jeremy Romero from the
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: National Wildlife Federation, a very avid.
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: Hunter angler out of New Mexico. Thank you, thanks again, Jeremy.
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: Thanks