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Ep. 52: Who Told Ya'll She Was a Hooker? · We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: To the We Are More Pod cast. My name is Alyssa. And my name is Bree. We're two sisters passionate about all things faith and feminism. We believe that Jesus trusted, respected, and encouraged women to teach and preach his word.
• 0:26
  And apparently, that's controversial. Get comfy.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Hello, world. Hello. Wow. That was loud.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: Breeze is not usually loud like that.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: I had, like, a mid to late day latte. Yes. We could title this podcast that. Mid to date day. Nope.
• 0:52
  You know what I mean. But I enjoyed hearing you mess it up. Isn't there a book right now that's popular called, like, Legends and Lattes or something like that?
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: I think that's, like, a self published one.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: It looks a little strange.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: It does. Not my bag. It's like fantasy but really cheesy fantasy, I think.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: I don't think I'd be into that.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: But I am into lattes. Yes. We know. They know. I know.
• 1:18
  Taylor.
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: The Latte Boy. Have we referenced that song yet? I don't know. Everybody okay. Pause this podcast right now, but don't forget to come back to us.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Also, not right now because you haven't told them what to do yet.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: Okay. After I after I say this then, pause it. Look up Taylor the Latte Boy by Kristen Chenoweth and just vibe. Listen to it loud and then learn all the lyrics, sing it, and then bounce back to our podcasting clip listening. It's just a really good song.
• 1:50
  I have tried so hard
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: to push that song away No. To not know every single word of it. No. But I can't she has to have listened to it a hundred times in my presence. So
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: At least.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: I know absolutely every word, every inflection.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. I go through songs sometimes where I just, like, I just listen and I listen and I listen to it. And you know how like at the end of the year, your music app will give you like a wrap up? Oh yeah. And it'll tell you how many times you listen to that one song.
• 2:22
  It's shameful. I haven't seen Taylor the Latte Boy yet, but there was one time where I had a Lizzo song that I was listening to a lot, it was like, you listen to it 68 times in one day. And I was like, what? That can't be good. He's like, that's not right.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: That really can't be good for the souls. I love Lizzo. I the end of the year wrap ups, I know that they're, like, kinda fun depending on whatever. I know Goodreads does one as well. Mhmm.
• 2:49
  But they make my soul a little sad because you start to realize, yeah, how much time you spent listening to music or whatever other wrap ups there are. YouTube does one.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: Listening to music is probably better than, like, the amount of time that you spend on TikTok. Well, yeah. Because when you're listening to music, you can
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: do multiple things. Like, read a book.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: Like, read a book. Or just, like, listening to music. It's good for the soul. I think there's something magical about music. I'm really into it.
• 3:17
  Probably depends on
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: the music. No. I love it all. Brie has been on a kick. So my husband is horrified by the music that we used to listen to as kids.
• 3:27
  Because remember, we were good little Baptist children. And so We really weren't. But we were supposed to be. Had a big stereo.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: And we had a selection of very particular CDs. And we would turn them
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: on and rock out. I just have such fond memories of this.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: But it was like Amy Grant From the '80s.
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: Oh, was like mom's old CD. Mhmm. Then Steve Green for
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: Called Steve Green. And then there was like an orange worship CD that just had churchy songs, but slightly too rocky for Baptist churches churchy songs.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: It was contemporary worship songs of the early 2000s that you're just like, You are my all in all Like that. We thought
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: we were cool Because those were the rocky songs for us. Yeah, I loved them. We played this in the car for my husband maybe two weeks ago, something like And we were like, these were our jams as children.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah. We listened to Christian music too growing up, listened to this. And he was just so utterly horrified. He threatened to jump out of the moving car.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: I believe he did. Because our growing up experience in churches was Baptist churches, and they're so stringent about the rules, at least the ones we were in. Mhmm. And, you know, music has to be this way, and your the way you act has to be such a way. And, like, there's so many rules.
• 4:53
  Right?
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: And then you have my husband who grew up in assemblies of God churches, which at least the ones he was in were more Lucy goosey. Yeah. So, like, he went to youth camp for church, and they played Black Parade. And I'm like, well, that's just not fair. So, yeah.
• 5:16
  If you wanna hang out with with two former Baptist children, here we Listen.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: Listen. We're really fun, and we're really good people. Sometimes. If you're on our good side. But those those songs shaped me, you know?
• 5:39
  I love them. I love them all. If I could listen to Amy Grant's version of Fat Baby That's the exact one that was in my Rest of my life, I'll be content.
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: If you haven't heard that one Look up that. That's hilarious. Mhmm. That's a great time. But on on that note of churches and whatever happened to our music tastes as children, we wanted to talk today about a figure that you're gonna hear about in your Easter sermons, probably.
• 6:08
  Probably. Jinx. Woah.
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: You owe me a Coke or something.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: Nuh-uh. I said Jinx. No. You owe me a coke.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: People can't tell us apart, so it could be either of us. It's quite true. Sorry
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: out there if you're confused. I don't know how to help you with that. But as we were studying for this, Brie had found some sermons by a female Methodist pastor.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: Name is Pastor Abby from Woods Chapel Church.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: I always hate having to, like, preface it by, like, a woman pastor or a female pastor. Like, I hate that. And the only reason I do is because I wanna make a point.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: I actually found it very difficult. So when I was trying to do some research, I was looking up different sermons. Spoiler alert, we're talking about Mary Magdalene today. But as I was it I found it very difficult to find anything by a female.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: Like even just the general like, oh, here's the history of Mary Magdalene YouTube videos. Yeah. All by men. And I specifically did not want one by men. Right.
• 7:18
  Men? A man? Well, because
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: you I would personally, I would just want to hear a different perspective. Uh-huh. Because the things that Mary Magdalene would have dealt with and obviously, like, she lived in a different time than we do, so we can't relate completely to what she's dealing with. Mhmm. But some of the stuff that she's dealing with, we're more likely to be able to understand.
• 7:37
  Mhmm.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: I can relate to it because we have the same parts.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: Or, you know, the same dealing with misogyny. Yeah. But, like, a male pastor isn't gonna understand that on the same level. So we listened to a sermon by a female pastor, and it was so eye opening to me because and we've talked about before how you rarely even hear the term she from the stage in a church. But to hear a full sermon and this was a full sermon on Mary Magdalene and her impact and her relationship with Jesus I thought back on my many, many, many years in various churches, primarily Baptist churches.
• 8:21
  Mhmm. And I thought, have I ever heard a full sermon on Mary Magdalene?
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: Not only was this a full sermon on Mary Magdalene, but she had a whole series.
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: It was called I haven't gone through and listened to them yet, all of them yet, but they're it's called Wonder Woman. Mhmm. And each sermon is on a different woman of the Bible, which I think is very cool.
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, we both subscribed to the channel. Mhmm. So I'm excited to go back and listen to it. But really, have you ever heard a full sermon on her? No.
• 8:50
  I've heard her mentioned Mhmm. But, like, in passing. Like, oh, she's a context
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: of, like, the crucifixion or, you know, other stories.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: Right. And she's sort of a footnote. Yeah. But she is mentioned 12 times, and she is the second most mentioned woman in the entire bible.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: So the second most amount of times she's mentioned of behind Mary, the mother of Jesus.
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: Speaking of which, there are a crap ton of Marys. It's awesome. In the Bible. And I think what's really dangerous, and we'll get into this later about how her story got misconstrued, but you have to know what the different Marys are. And you have to keep their stories separate.
• 9:31
  Mhmm. Not combine them willy nilly. Well, think of, like,
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: if you were to read one of the millions of books I'm staring at on Bree's bookshelf right now.
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: Shut up.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: An author would never give you or, well, I'm sure some would, but normally, an author is not gonna give you a bunch of people with the same name. Because it's confusing. It's really confusing. But the bible is a historical account. Yeah.
• 9:55
  It's also a translated historical account. So the translators are making things easy on themselves. Yeah. So I think, like, I know that Mary Magdalene, we read an article by Marg Mauskop? Mauskowitz.
• 10:10
  By our good friend Marg. And she wrote that in, I believe, the Greek, Mary was not necessarily always Mary. Sometimes it was Maria. Sometimes it so there's, like, different ways of doing
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: Maryan or something like that.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So remember that, first of all, these are real people with real names, so you can't always separate them.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, I had a religion class in college. There were five Briannas. Good heavens. Yeah. It was a little confusing.
• 10:39
  It was chaos. I know.
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: But also that, you know, the translators made life easy for themselves, and they may not have all been known as Mary.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, you were talking earlier how you read an article, right?
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's actually Marg's article. Just to kind of introduce Mary Magdalene, we know her as Mary Magdalene. But the question then becomes, what's the Magdalene part of it?
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what does that mean?
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: To us, I think it's easy to assume it's her last name. Yeah. But Marg, in her article, talks about, like, Christ isn't Jesus' last name. So that's, like, that's not always what it means.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: Pastor Abby mentions that, too,
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: in her sermon. So there's three options for what Magdalene means. Now, most people, including Pastor Abby. Pastor Abby. Assume that it's because Mary came from Magdala.
• 11:36
  That's kind of the prevailing theory. It was a region, there's some different cities that she could have been from, and that makes sense because you would have called Jesus, Jesus of Nazarene, you know, things like that. So there's definitely historical precedent for that. That's a possibility. But again, we don't know that for sure.
• 11:55
  So then another option, Marg mentions three options. Another option is that Magdalene could have been kind of a nickname.
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: Which I think is very cool.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: It's so fun, right?
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: Jesus had little nicknames for the people that he considered his family. That makes sense, like how I don't always call you Alyssa. I can't say, I can't cuss. Technically, you can. Mom won't like it.
• 12:21
  You're in my phone as shmoo. Yeah.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: And I call Brie Bean. So there you go. There you go. But Jesus had nicknames for his people. And it just it speaks to the relationships that we forget that Jesus was a person Mhmm.
• 12:38
  That would have had relationships that, like, meant something to him. He wasn't just this, like, holy, powerful, like, separate being. He was fully god Mhmm.
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: Is fully god, and was fully human at the same time. So think about your human interactions.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: He had the same. Right. It says, for Jesus gave I'm reading straight from Mark's article here. It says Jesus gave the descriptive nicknames Rock and Sons of Thunder to his three closest disciples, which would have been Simon Peter, and then John and James, who were brothers. Which I just think is utterly hilarious.
• 13:12
  Start calling people sons of thunder. But Magdalene would have meant tower, watchtower, or fortress in Aramaic. So potentially, Magdalene could have meant, like, strong, strength, standing sturdy, things like that.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: What's up, my tower? My pillar of strength? How are you doing?
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: That's my favorite. And obviously, like, that's just there's no way to know. Mhmm. But that's my favorite option Yeah. That she presents.
• 13:44
  I just think it it says something about Jesus and his relationships with people.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: But then there's also the last one. Margaret calls it Mary who plaited hair. So that's a really interesting one. She says that there's an almost identical word to magdala, which can mean hairdresser. So, like, to braid your hair, sort of.
• 14:05
  So that's an option sort of like if it was slightly mistranslated, you know, like, sounds very similar. And so the question then becomes, could Mary have been a hairdresser? Was that a thing? Was that an option? That's not something I think of when I think of, like, ancient Israelites.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: But that also makes sense. Just practically, they're not going and cutting their hair all the time. Right. So how are they keeping their hair from getting in absolute knots and messes?
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: There's no conditioner. Well, it's like protective styles.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: Right? Could see that happening for women of the time back then.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: Especially where they were located. I mean, you're dealing with some harsh conditions for your hair, for sure. Yeah. Mark also says that according to rabbinic literature, being a hairdresser would have been a few occupations that was open to respectable Jewish women. Okay.
• 14:53
  So definitely it was an option. Not something that I would have thought of, but it is an option. And this will lead into a little bit of what Brie's about to talk about, too, how we have come under the assumption that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute. Mhmm. So this plays into that a little bit.
• 15:10
  She quotes from John Lightfoot's A Commentary of the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraicah. Wow. Say that again. Nope. I don't think I can.
• 15:22
  And he equates plated hair with prostitution, which is just fascinating. Why? I'm not entirely sure. So he essentially says that whence she was called Magdalene doth not so plainly appear, whether Magdala, a town on the Lake Of Genesaret, or from the word Magdla. It's spelled M G D L A, which signifies a plating or curling of the hair, a thing usual with harlots why I don't know I'm not sure she doesn't really say if that translation makes sense like that he equates it with harlots But she does then go on to say that he was not the first to link Mary Magdalene with prostitution.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: I can tell you who the first one is, but I want to kind of jump into just, like Mary Magdalene has so many different labels that have been given to her throughout the time throughout times. And pastor Abby talks about this too, but she's been labeled a sex worker, a prostitute. She's been labeled a saint. She's been labeled a sinner, a witness, an apostle to the apostles, and a wife. But really, the only things that are said about her in the Bible is that she was very faithful, and she was healed, and was a healer.
• 16:41
  Mhmm. So I don't know where all of this other stuff came about. Well, think we do know because you're gonna talk about it. Then I know where all of this stuff is talking about. She was originally labeled a prostitute by Pope Gregory the Great in May.
• 16:58
  He was giving a sermon on Luke seven thirty six-fifty, which is the story before Mary Magdalene gets introduced. But it's a story about when Jesus was at the house of a Pharisee.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: And a woman who is it just says that she was a certain immoral woman. It doesn't say how she was immoral. It doesn't say her name. But she heard that Jesus was there and went into the house and kneeled at his feet. And she was crying and her tears dropped onto the floor at his feet.
• 17:33
  She wiped them off with her hair and anointed his feet with this really expensive oil or perfume that she brought with her in an alabaster jar. And the Pharisee said to himself, not out loud, but he was like, If Jesus knew who this woman was and what she does, he wouldn't let her near him.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. And it goes on to say how Jesus responds to this guy's thoughts. That story is wild. Like, you know that Jesus can do these things, but it is a wild story.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: To see it in action. But this woman is not named, and it also does not say what her sins were. Right. But Pope Gregory the Great of May, so a long time ago, decided that she must have been Mary Magdalene. And so he called her Mary Magdalene, and he said that her sins were obviously prostitution because she was the woman who seven demons were cast out of her.
• 18:32
  And those demons must obviously be the seven deadly sins, one of which is lust. And so the story goes that she became a prostitute, even though it says nothing about it.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: I think it's so interesting, because I remember Pastor Abby had said he combined like, the Gospels so Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John they all have they're all kind of telling the story of Jesus' life, but from different perspectives, and they tell different stories. Not all of which are meant to be combined. Mhmm. And so the Pope took a story from one gospel, and then he cherry picked a story from another gospel, and then he cherry picked another one, and kind of threw them all at Mary Magdalene in a really
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: interesting sort of way that was clearly not biblical. The Catholic church didn't renounce what he said until 1969. That's That's too long. It's wild to me.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: She said that's like twelve hundred no, fourteen hundred years? Mhmm. That's a whole bunch of years.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: And to let it go on so long, because now it's in people's minds,
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: it's the It's in people's minds and then it kind of bleeds into our pop culture references. So she went on to say like, the 02/2003 novel The Da Vinci Code by Dan Brown. He came up with this theory that Mary Magdalene was married to Jesus, and they had a son or something together or a child together. And then people started to believe that. Right.
• 20:10
  Or in Jesus Christ Superstar, which is a musical from the 60s, there's a whole song that Mary Magdalene sings where she's, like, in love with Jesus.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: So she just has become this object. Well, think the church has I mean, we this is half the theme of the whole podcast, right? The church has taken very strong steps, and that's the Protestant and the Catholic church, to discredit women, particularly the women of the Bible, because any of their contributions, we have to look at them in a different lens. Because if the Bible says that Mary Magdalene was the apostle to the apostles, that she was a close friend of Jesus, that she followed Jesus around, that Jesus trusted her to go tell his disciples that he had risen, which we'll get into later. But if all of that is true, then women have more value in the church, in society, than patriarchy and patriarchal churches want us
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: to believe. They want us to believe that women had very little to do with Jesus' ministry, when actually it talks about, in the Bible, in Luke chapter eight, it says that Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and Susanna, I believe. These were all women who financially supported Jesus' ministry apart from their husbands, if they had any, but just of their own resources, and followed Jesus around very faithfully. Mary was at the cross when he died, when almost everybody else left him. She was unafraid.
• 21:49
  She said, I'm sticking here. And she was the first person that Jesus told when he was resurrected. She was there. That's how important she was.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: And how wild that for our Easter services, which you guys will be hearing this just a couple days before Easter, at our Easter services, you'll likely hear about Peter. That's probably one of the main stories you can expect to hear. Mhmm. Because if you're not familiar with the story, before Jesus was taken to the cross, he told Peter, you're gonna deny me three times Mhmm. Before the sun rises, basically.
• 22:23
  And then Peter's like, no. I'm not gonna do that.
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: I love you so much, Jesus. I would never. We're bestest best friends.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: But then, of course, Jesus is right because that's just how life goes. And Peter does, in fact, deny him three times. So you'll hear that story, and that's an important story. Absolutely. But you're not gonna hear this story.
• 22:47
  And I guess maybe it's a little less exciting and gripping than Peter's story where he just, like, says forget you Jesus three times.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: But Mary Magdalene was faithful throughout. Mhmm. And that's an important story to tell also. Not instead of, but alongside. To say, here's what happened with Peter because Peter is human and this is a normal reaction.
• 23:15
  But also, here's Mary.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. I liked how Pastor Abby talked about the seven demons being cast out of Mary Magdalene, because she said in that time, it wouldn't necessarily mean, like, demons that were possessing you to do evil things.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: It
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: was more like physical pain, emotional pain, that kind of stuff. So that makes her a lot more real to That
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: blew me away. Mhmm. Like, the things that, as just average people who haven't been through seminary Yeah. We just don't know. Like, of course, if the bible says that Jesus cast these demons out of her, in our modern day context, we're thinking literally, like, what's the the exorcist?
• 23:58
  Yeah. That's what I'm thinking. Spewing green bleh. Yeah. Speaking languages she doesn't know, like craziness, right?
• 24:04
  But to think that that maybe isn't the type of language that they would have used for that, And that she might have had, yeah, physical ailments.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, these day to day things that are just making her life more difficult. And think about, like, a time in your life, if you've ever experienced, know that I have, when you're just in the depths of despair and when Jesus has shown up in your life and how on fire for God you are think of how much more you would be if Jesus was standing in front
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: of you I think it's a super powerful image too to pull those together and to say, like, when you're at your worst moment, instead of saying, Jesus helped me through it, to say, Jesus cast these demons out of me. Yeah. That's a very powerful image. And I think of her and what she might have been experiencing, what she might have been dealing with. It's a lot easier for us modern day to dismiss her and her contributions to Jesus' ministry if we say, well, prior to Jesus' miracles, she was the worst of the worst.
• 25:12
  She had seven demons in her. What must she have done to have seven actual demons possessing her?
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, the church has done a really great job of silencing her contributions, for sure. Because I think because she was so important and because she was a woman, we don't want to see that. We want to maintain that women are silent and submissive, and that's all that they can contribute to God's kingdom. Right.
• 25:41
  But clearly, that's not the case. Right.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: Well, when I know also, one of the really significant moments for Mary Magdalene is that when Jesus came back after after his resurrection What?
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: He came back. Part two. Have you seen that TikTok? No. It's like reading the bible for the first time.
• 26:02
  Oh, they killed off the main character. Wait. He came back.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: I can't I always wonder what people think. Like, if you haven't been exposed to the bible throughout your life Mhmm. Because, like, we just grew up with this. This is just normal whatever to us. Yeah.
• 26:20
  But if you haven't some of this
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: is wild. Some of these stories are insane. Like, I'm sorry. He got swallowed up by a fish. Yeah.
• 26:28
  Who?
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: Well, you also saw a TikTok about that, and no one believes you either.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: If you didn't listen to that episode. No. One of the, I think, most significant moments that we hear about in Mary Magdalene's life is when Jesus comes back from the dead. Mary Magdalene was amongst the women who came she came to Jesus' tomb to basically, like, prepare the body. Mhmm.
• 26:53
  Because, obviously, their burial situations would have been very different than ours. So they came with potentially, actually, I've heard the frankincense that his parents were given Yeah. When he was born. So that's kind of a theory, but just sort of an interesting little side note. Because that's a
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: death gift. Did you know that?
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: I did know that. Yeah.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: Those are things that they would prepare the body with. Right. And he was given them at his birth. I
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: know. Dark foreshadowing. If you're reading the bible like a novel. But they came to prepare the body to put these herbs and incenses and things like that on the body. And when they get there, spoiler alert, Jesus' body is not there because as he had said was going to happen three days after he died, he rose again.
• 27:48
  And then he came back to talk to the women that came to his gravesite. Mhmm. Amongst them being Mary Magdalene. And actually, Marg, in her article and I'm gonna just so you guys can look it up, it's who was Mary Magdalene on her website. And she says, My favorite passage about Mary and the resurrection is in John's Gospel, where we get to hear her speak.
• 28:10
  So this is John 20 verse 16. She says it's especially moving when Jesus simply calls her Mary, and she responds with Rabboni, which means my master, teacher. And I just think that's lovely. Set that scene in your head for a minute. Like, Jesus comes back, and there's his bestest best friend standing right there.
• 28:28
  He's just like, Mary, it's you. I missed you. Yeah.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: I mean, I died. So sorry about that. Let's catch up. Hey, I died. You're taking
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: the lovely moment from me.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: Sorry. Sorry.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: That's a lovely emotional moment.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: She did have tears in her eyes.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: So, I just like that moment. But then the fact that Jesus said to Mary and the other women that were with her, Alright, now I need you to go back to the disciples, who, by the way, are all hiding out in a room above something, like, locked room
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: Because they're scared. I need you to go back and tell them that I did actually rise like I said I was going to. Mhmm. Because they're all kinda doubting that that was gonna happen.
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: And I think that's so powerful. Jesus could absolutely go to them himself. Oh, yeah. He could be like, Look, guys, I'm back. But he's like, No, I'm gonna trust you with the most important information that the world is
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: ever gonna receive. And this was a time period where women the testimony of women was not considered truthful. So a woman couldn't actually go up, like, in court and give testimony because anything she said was inadmissible. Because we have our stinking periods. We can't be trusted.
• 29:51
  So for Jesus to trust this to a woman in a time where women were not considered real witnesses, they really couldn't be considered trustworthy. Half of
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: the time, they're considered property, like, on the same level as the animals. Right. So that's revolutionary.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: I think that, all on its own, speaks to the value that Jesus placed in women, women's equality,
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: women's rights. He told her to go preach. Right. He told her, get up and go. Mhmm.
• 30:29
  So if you have any doubt that women can preach or teach or lead
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: There's your proof right there.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: When Jesus, before he ascends back into heaven, he he dies, he goes to heaven, comes back. He goes back. There's many a thing that's happening. But before he finally goes back to heaven for the last time and leaves his disciples, he tells them, go out into the world and preach the gospel.
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: Oh, the Great Commission.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: You're welcome. And
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: we, again, because we have these just tiny little minds that only think of certain things, we assume he's only talking to his 12 male disciples, right? Because we haven't been told about all these women that followed him. For goodness sakes, there are, like, 25 Marys Yeah. Following him around. I could tell
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: you who they are. Tell me, Brie. Tell me who they are. Mary Magdalene, Mary, mother of Jesus, Mary of Bethany, who was the sister of Martha and Lazarus, Mary, mother of James and Joseph, Mary of Calliopeus, Mary, mother of John and Mark, Mary of Rome. And that's all of the Marys in the Bible.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: And that's just the Marys. Yeah. Brie also talked about was it Joanna?
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: Joanna. That's a song from Sweeney Todd. But, Joanna, who was the wife of Chuza, which who was Herod's business manager, was financially supporting Jesus' ministry Mhmm. And Susanna, who I don't know who that is.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: But someone else who was financially supporting his ministry. You look at these women, and they were also following along with the disciples. So when Jesus gave his disciples that great commission, they were probably not the only ones there. Absolutely. All these women wouldn't have it's not like Jesus was like, hold on, hold on.
• 32:12
  Women, go over in the corner. Don't listen. Plug your ears. Let me just talk to the men for a second. No.
• 32:17
  Jesus spoke to all of his disciples, which included many, many women and said, go out and preach the gospel. Luke specifically
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: went out to when he wrote his gospel, he was trying to write, like, a very accurate representation of an account of Jesus's life and ministry. And he very specifically mentions the women who followed along with Jesus as well. Because I think there was obviously some miscommunication thinking that the early followers of Jesus were only men, but he specifically mentions the women.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: I think it's very impactful too, because for me personally, when I imagine a lot of the stories of Jesus, like when he fed the 5,000, things like that. When they're on the boat and the storm is raging and Peter walks out into the ocean like a crazy or the sea, I guess. I guess it's
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: not an ocean. Sometimes I need to walk out in the sea too. But all
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: of these stories of Jesus, in my head when I picture them, I picture Jesus and his 12 disciples. Mhmm. Because that's what we've been taught to picture. But I think it's impactful to stop yourself, just like as a thought exercise, and imagine when Jesus, you know, divides the fish and the loaves of bread to feed the 5,000. That the people handing out all the food were not just 12 men.
• 33:45
  No. That the people handing out the food would have included all of these women that followed as well.
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: These groupies. I mean, his mom! Right. Yes. His mom was definitely there.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: And to think that they were on that boat with the rest of the disciples, seeing these miracles happen, being part of that ministry, not just sitting in the background and You know, we talked last week from Beth's book about Peter's wife. And Peter's wife actually is referenced as following as well. So she likely was part of
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: this, but we think of them as silent. Because that was cultural at the time. And so, unfortunately, that translates into the Bible. Because that's the time that you're talking about. Roman law, women didn't have voices.
• 34:29
  They didn't have rights.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: But
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: what we need to read is between the lines and see how Jesus was treating those women. He was treating them as his followers just like his disciples. He was talking to them for heaven's sakes. So that in and of itself is revolutionary. So that's how we should be living our lives.
• 34:49
  Revolutionarily. Wow, that was a fun word. I made it up.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: Well, think of the story of Jesus and the woman at the well, and we've done an episode on her as well. As well. At the well.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: As well at the well.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: And again, this is another instance where Jesus said to a woman, go out and preach the gospel. Mhmm. Not with those exact words, but he told her who he was. He said she was the first person that he told that to. Mhmm.
• 35:20
  He said, I'm I'm here to save you. I'm here to give you living water. He said, Guess what? They don't like when you whisper either. Psst.
• 35:31
  Guess what? Okay. Was horrifying. Everyone ripped their headphones out of their ears. But he essentially told her, go preach this.
• 35:41
  Mhmm.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: Go out
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: and tell this to all of the people of your country, of your town, everyone you know. Tell it on the mountain. Except it wasn't a mountain.
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: I saw a TikTok yesterday, the other day. I don't know. That was this girl talking about her pastor and that verse that says, go spread the news, whatever that verse is. She said another translation, like, you could read it as, in your going, spread God's word. Oh, I love that.
• 36:12
  I love that too because sometimes you feel overwhelmed by that. Mhmm. You're like, I have to go tell everybody admire the good news. That is overwhelming. But, like, in your day to day life, in the callings that you've been called to complete, spread God's news.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, we take on too much, I think. And you look at Jesus himself and at all of his disciples, including Mary Magdalene, they weren't walking around with sandwich boards saying, Jesus is here. Good news. You know? They had specific missions that they were completing.
• 36:53
  Yeah. There were specific things that they were doing. And if you stand on the corner with a sandwich board, people are gonna think you're weird, and they're not gonna talk
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: to you. They might put some coins in your cup. They might. But they're not
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: gonna talk to you about Jesus.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: That's such a good translation.
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: In your going, in your relationships that you're already building, I think that's important. Let God's light shine through you. Don't Don't be weird. Don't be weird. You're not gonna draw people in that way.
• 37:25
  No.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: Another aspect that we wanted to talk about is the Gospel of Mary Magdalene.
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: The Gospel of Mary Magdalene. Oh, this second century text was found in 1896 in Egypt. Just so you know, if you want a little fun fact. I wrote that down. I did want that fun fact.
• 37:47
  Now,
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: the Gospel of Mary Magdalene is not included in what they call the Canon of the Protestant Bible. Mhmm. So that's, like, the 66 books that I could sing a song about them, but I won't.
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: First, second, and third, John, Jude, and Revelation. That's the part that's popping off my head right now.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: But we haven't included the gospel of I I say we. I made no decisions here. The gospel of Mary Magdalene was not included in those 66 books. And pastor Abby, I think, said something about that.
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: She did. She just said that it wasn't included in our canon because a bunch of men sat around a table and decided not to include it.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: I think that's important, though, because we're not talking about when they found it again in No, because it was always there, but then they lost it. Right. Because it didn't get included in the first place. So it's not being translated over and over like the rest of the bible. It's not being written down a million times like the rest of the bible.
• 38:50
  So when they originally decided not to include it, it became sort of just a forgotten Yeah.
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: Piece of parchment. And they only found eight to nine pages of it.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: Right. It wasn't in the 1800s.
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: In the 1800 almost the 1900s, but it wasn't complete when they found it.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: So, if that original group of men had said, This is important enough to keep, then we would have had the full text. Right. But because they didn't, a lot of it was lost. So we have a little bit of it, and it's included in what they call the Gnostic Gospels. I have a copy of it.
• 39:25
  You can get it anywhere.
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: I don't like the word gnostic. It's got a silent g. It's like, I've been a gnostic girl. I've been I've been a gnostic girl. That frightened me.
• 39:38
  Have you seen that on TikTok? No. But I'm sure they have.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: You're welcome. But these include the Gospel of Judas, Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Mary Magdalene. So there are varying reasons that I have heard these are not included in the Bible. Mhmm. One of the reasons I have heard about the Gospel of Mary Magdalene that it wasn't included in the first place because it would have been a complete text at the time.
• 40:04
  Mhmm. So why it wasn't included in the first place was that repeatedly throughout this, Mary is called Jesus' favorite.
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: And the argument is, well, Jesus doesn't have a favorite. And so clearly, that's heretical. Like, Jesus would never have a favorite. But,
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: again, like we were just talking about earlier, Jesus was fully human. Mhmm. I'm not saying that he doesn't have love for everybody. But he was human, and you and I have favorite people too. Well, you
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: can absolutely see that in some of his other relationships. Mhmm. Look at other Mary and Martha and Lazarus. He was extremely close to them. The Bible talks about his close relationship with them as opposed to anybody else.
• 40:54
  You know? Jesus created a deep relationship with those people. So on his human side, it makes sense that Jesus would have people that he was closer with, really good friends, best friends, people that you would call favored.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: Also, throughout the gospel of Mary Magdalene, I just wanna point out, she does not call herself Jesus' favorite. Other people call her Jesus' favorite. Peter and Levi both call her Jesus' favorite in this book. I think they were just a
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: little bit jealous. Like, she was very faithful.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: So, I mean, they were just a little jelly.
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: It's clear that Jesus is very close with her. Mhmm. You can see that in in the way that she interacts with him. And it's also clear throughout the Bible that Peter does have some jealousy issues. Normal.
• 41:41
  Very normal. Mhmm. But it makes sense to me that Peter would react like this. He'd be like, you're Jesus' favorite. I don't like you.
• 41:50
  You stink. Now, don't know as much about Levi because, frankly, we haven't heard that much about him in sermons because there's special people in the Bible that we hear about all the time.
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: He didn't have his own flannelgraph, so He did not have a flannelgraph.
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: But the Gospel of Mary Magdalene essentially tells this story mostly through quotes. And again, it's a little bit like, if you pick this up, it is a little bit confusing the way it's worded because our modern day bibles, Brie and I tend to lean towards the NLT or the NIV, those translations have been translated so that they're in easy to read modern English.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: Whereas the Gospel of Mary Magdalene has not gone through all those translations. So there are parts of it that are definitely very confusing. And perhaps if you knew the original Greek or the original Aramaic that it was that the scrolls that they found were in Mhmm. You might be able to translate it better into modern day English.
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: But I'll give you a little secret. We can't.
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: We cannot. That is not in my repertoire.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: I know a few key phrases in French. Do you wanna hear them? Okay.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: Brianna is a chicken.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: I think I've done this before. I feel that you have. I'm moving on.
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: Okay. So the Gospel of Mary Magdalene tells a story about after Jesus has gone back to heaven. And Mary Magdalene is sitting with some of the disciples, and they ask her Peter actually asks her to tell them some things that Jesus told her in private. Like, teach us more things about Jesus Mhmm. That he didn't share with all of us.
• 43:32
  And so she goes on to talk about, honestly, what to me feels like a little bit of a revelation type story.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: I find that really comforting because I'm picturing, you know, you're in a time of grief. You've lost someone you're so, so, so close to. And what do you do? You get together and you share stories about that person. And it makes sense that they're like, hey, can you share some more stories about him?
• 43:57
  Because we know that you were closer. He shared certain things with you. Can you share those stories and we'll share our stories? And they didn't have photographs back then, but I imagine if they did, they'd be sharing photographs.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: I love that you said photographs, not, you know, pictures. Photographs. Brie decided to go with the old English version. Much like the Gospel of Mary Magdalene. But she talks about this vision that she had, essentially.
• 44:23
  And one of the parts that I really like about it is that Jesus is asked, what is the world's sin? And Jesus replies, there is no sin in reality. It is you who create sin when you do deeds such as adultery that are called sinful. I found that really interesting because it's like sin is not an entity unto itself.
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: Sin is not a thing you can grab. It's not something physical. It's something that you, me, as a person, create through your actions and deeds. And I just thought that was an interesting part of it. Yeah.
• 44:58
  Because it's short. It's not a complete gospel, so it's just a really interesting short story. At the end of it, Peter does kind of go after Mary Magdalene for being a woman. Because remember, patriarchal society Mhmm. All of these people grew up in it.
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: And now Jesus isn't there to say,
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: hey, that's not okay. Keep you in line. And frankly, what Peter says here, I could hear being said in any church today. So Mary finishes her story, and then they're kind of like Andrew, who was another disciple, he says, say what you like about what Mary said, but I don't believe Jesus would tell us such strange notions. To be fair, it's kind of a weird story, but again, translations and lack of my ability to understand it.
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: And also, come on, Andrew. Jesus was talking in riddles. Jesus All the time. Told some weird Living water?
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: What does that mean? We don't know. I think we do now. They didn't know.
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: But I'm that's a weird thing to say.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: It is weird. I mean, Jesus speaks in parables half the time. Jesus says some weird stuff. And then Peter says to Mary, did he really speak with Mary, a woman, without our knowing? Are we to listen to her?
• 46:17
  Did he favor her more than us? And so, of course, Mary gets upset. She's hurt because this is someone that she has served with. Someone that she has probably done all the exact same things he's doing. And I think of the women in church today When men discredit the things that they believe, the things that they feel, the things that they wanna preach.
• 46:40
  And they would say the same thing. Would Jesus really speak to a woman? Did he favor her more than us? I can see those same things being said. And so she says, do you really think I made this up?
• 46:52
  Do you think I would lie about Jesus? And that's what it comes down to. We never want to say it quite like that. Yeah. But when you discredit women, in this case, in the religious space, you're saying that they're lying.
• 47:06
  When you say to a woman who believes that her calling is to preach, you're saying she's lying about Jesus. Think that through before you say it to someone.
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: And then Levi jumps in to defend her and tells Peter that he's quick to anger and that he shouldn't be doubting Mary because they know her. They know what her character is.
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: And Jesus knew her. And Jesus trusted her. Therefore,
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: trust her. Believe her. And a big part of, I think, what Pastor Abby said about this gospel was this is part of why it makes sense that Mary is considered the apostle to the apostles. She was given wisdom from Jesus to teach the apostles things. She wasn't just another person.
• 47:58
  She was preaching to people that were meant to go preach. She was a preacher to the preachers. And we have to give her credit for that because Jesus gave her credit for it.
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: And I think that scares people who are afraid of losing their power. Because if we say it's okay for her to do it, why isn't it okay for other women to feel called to ministry to lead, teach, and preach? And they're afraid of losing that upper hand. Right. They like to dominate.
• 48:34
  They like to have power. It makes them feel special and important. Rather than saying, We need to spread the gospel at whatever cost. Right.
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: I think the end of end of Jesus' story, his crucifixion, his resurrection, his ascension, obviously it's this miraculous story. And we get caught up in just sort of the miraculousness of it. And of course, it's a hugely important part of the Bible. It's like the most important part.
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: It is the event.
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: The event. But to step back and look at it as a story also of equality, as a story of Jesus valuing those who were not valued in their own society. To look at it like that, I think, makes it even more powerful. One of my favorite books is Jesus Feminist. And it's because it it takes that label of feminist that the Christians have so villainized.
• 49:41
  Mhmm. And it puts it on Jesus. Jesus who is perfect, Jesus who does no wrong. And to say, Jesus was a feminist. Jesus fought for women's rights.
• 49:54
  Jesus provided equality to the women that were with him. Mhmm. That's an incredibly powerful story too. And I think it's important that we tell that alongside all of the other miraculousness of this story Mhmm. As you launch into Easter and that season, spring, bunnies, eggs, all the things.
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: Don't talk about eggs. I'm sorry. They are too expensive. Are you guys dying eggs this year? No.
• 50:23
  I've seen people dying potatoes. I've seen people dying marshmallows and pierogis.
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: Pierogis would be an exciting time.
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: make a whole batch of pierogis just to dye them colors. But, as you guys go out into Easter, I hope that you can think of that story alongside it and share it with people. Talk about as you're sitting eating your Easter ham. Yeah. To just share that with the other people in your life.
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it's just important to keep talking about women. Mhmm. Keep telling their stories, and that's that.
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: It's so easy to let the women of the Bible be erased. We do it every Sunday. We never hear she or her from the stage.
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. We so rarely talk about women other than on Mother's Day. We walk down the halls with portraits of all of the white male pastors throughout time. Walked down one
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: of those this week myself.
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: And it's so easy to feel silenced and invisible in those spaces. Mhmm. But know that we see you. Mhmm. God sees you.
• 51:34
  And there's probably someone else in that church that sees you.
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: And shout those stories as loud as you can. Mhmm. Because that's the only way to make sure that they don't fade into the background. Mhmm. Jesus didn't want them to fade into the background.
• 51:47
  She's mentioned 12 times.
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: That's why she's in the Bible. Yeah. Literally throughout history, human history, she will be remembered.
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: As long as we keep telling
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: her story. Right. So next week,
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: I think we should talk about female friendships. I've been listening to a lot of Amy
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: Poehler podcasts,
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: and she's really big on those, and I am too.
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: Alright. So next week will be on female friendships. A little lighter. Lighter. Oh, thank goodness.
• 52:15
  Mhmm. We've been doing some heavy stuff lately, guys. I think there's such a power in the relationships that women have. Women can develop these incredibly deep relationships.
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: And I think that's a strength that we have.
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: I was listening to this morning on my hour and a half drive to work. Amy Poehler has a podcast called Good Hang, and she did the latest episode with Katherine Hahn. And she was talking about female friendships and how important they are and how, like, you kind of walk hand in hand through life together and it makes those really hard events that everybody's going to go through a little bit more bearable and there's just something special about having those women by your side who truly know you. So, I think
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: we should I saw a TikTok. What? I know. Wild. Who are you?
• 53:05
  You, apparently. And it said something along the lines and it was just, like, a funny one, but it was, like, you can always tell a girl with a sister close to the same age because she just has the most wild confidence of anyone on the planet. And I don't even necessarily think that's only true of, like, sisters. Obviously, like, Brie and I have each other, but just those close female relationships because you have the ability to impart wild confidence on the other person the power that that has. Mhmm.
• 53:35
  And look at the women that would have been following Jesus. They would have had to stick together. Oh my gosh. They had to be so close.
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: I mean, they're all named Mary. They are all named Mary. They share that. They do. Alright.
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: So we'll talk about that next week. Go ahead and check us out on social media. We are on TikTok and Instagram. I'll post tomorrow.
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: And we'll talk to you about that guy. I'll talk to you about that guy. His name was Jesus. Talk to you next week. Love you.
• 54:15
  Bye.
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: Love you.