Latest / Cait & Court's Cozy Corner: Romance Readers / Let's Talk About: Off Campus with Director Dawn Wilkinson
Transcript
- Cait: Hi, welcome back to Cait and Court's Cozy Corner. You know, we always like to start with a bang. ⁓ Anyway, today we have a very special guest with us. We're so excited to speak, be speaking with director Dawn Wilkinson, who directed the last two episodes of the series Off Campus based off the book that we have already discussed on this podcast, Elle Kennedy's The Deal. Hi, Dawn, welcome. Thank you for joining us. Court: Aye. Mm-hmm. Yes. Dawn Wilkinson: Hi, Cait. Hi, Court. I'm so happy to be here. Cait: Okay. And so we're very lucky to have Dawn on because Court worked with Dawn years ago. Court, can you speak to the project that you worked with Dawn on? Court: Mm. I should have double checked the name, but I feel like it's called Take Two. It Takes Two? Take Two. I confused it with the show with Mary Kate and Ashley Olson. But yes, it was Take Two that I got to work with the lovely Dawn ⁓ years ago. It was Rachel Bilson and Eddie's show that they did, but ⁓ it was a really lucky experience for me because I was just like, you know, a guest star on it, but a lot of my scenes were kind of just me doing some things, so I got to actually Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah, that's it. Take care. Yeah. Court: talk to you and get to know you a bit. No, you were like a working director mom. You were the first director I worked with that was a mom as well. ⁓ and I was a new mom at the time. And I really just found it so inspiring, like seeing how you were balancing that. ⁓ And also there's a thing people don't really know when you're doing kind of big episodics, the guest stars of the day and the directors, you're kind of like stepping into someone else's house. Cait: Yeah. Court: For a couple days. Like as a director, you're running and directing, but you're still stepping into a community that already exists. So it's kind of this like lonely island world sometimes. Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: So I feel like there was this vibe that I saw Dawn and she saw me, because then there's Rachel and Eddie who are lovely, but like also had their own thing going on. And we're like, ⁓ I can talk to you. Dawn Wilkinson: ⁓ the guest cast when I'm directing because it's like a different energy that they bring than the, the, the cast, you know, that's, that's the, the starring cast that's always there. They, they can be excited often I'm involved in casting, you know, for ⁓ episodes. So it's, it's yeah, it's really fun work with the guest cast. ⁓ Cait: Yeah. Court: Yeah. Because I was looking at it and obviously there's a lot of established characters already. ⁓ So coming into seven / 8, like early, because they knew it was it was a set series, how early in the start of this process were you brought into it to start for your own prep and casting? Because there was a lot of carryover characters. Cait: Okay. Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. Cait: Mm. Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah, I mean I think it's you know, when you go at the end of the season, like seven and 8, I, I probably had scripts before I started shooting or like before I started officially prepping. Usually it's, it's like it's around to it's a little over it's a little less than two weeks an episode to, to prep, you know, so you have the time to like Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Yeah. Mm. Court: Mm-hmm. Dawn Wilkinson: you know, cast and go location scout and have all the prep meetings that are required to like have all the props and all the costumes and all that stuff ready. ⁓ but I, I don't think, I think I had the scripts a little bit in advance of my prep because often on shows that are ⁓ I would say on streaming shows, you tend to get the scripts, they tend to have the scripts written in advance of shooting. Whereas like in network shows they would often be writing while you're shooting. You know, so you get Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Mm. Court: Mm. Cait: ⁓ Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: there is a little bit of a difference in terms of I think how long the scripts are available to be read and ⁓ it and it helps a lot because, you know, in a show like this it's very, very serialized. So like you really kinda need to be knowledgeable to the whole season when you're directing ⁓ one or two episodes. So ⁓ it was, it wasn't like, it was like a good amount of like the usual rush. ⁓ know, ⁓ I would say there was... Cait: It's very good. Court: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Cait: Ha ha ha Dawn Wilkinson: There was a n- like there were roles that I was involved in casting because they appeared for the first time in my ep, episodes. Like I'm thinking specifically of like Hannah's parents. Court: Yes. Cait: Yeah. Okay. I have a question about that. Yeah. I have a question about that. Did you ⁓ did you cast Lauren Patten? 'Cause she, she played the- Court: Yes, her parents and the board members. Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah, and You know, Lauren that's right. So, yeah, so Lauren we can go you can describe it if you like. Cait: Sure. She played the, the Broadway star. She played ⁓ Joanna Maxwell, right? Is that the name? Yeah. And what was really fun about that for me, I'm in New York right now because my husband's on Broadway. He's, he's in August Wilson's Joe Turner's Come and Gone. And so I'm going to see all these fun shows and everything like that. And everyone had been recommending Becky Shaw. So I went with the friend to see Becky Shaw. And it was amazing. And then I'm watching Off Campus. Court: Bo's yeah, Bo's sister. Yes. Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. Yeah. Cait: And Lauren Patten comes on and I was like, wait, they actually cast a Broadway star. This is amazing. Court: Ha ha ha Dawn Wilkinson: I sh- we were really excited to have her. Lauren, La- Lauren and, and Louisa, our showrunner, know each other from Death and Other Details. So that's how it came about. I think there we, we talked about it, but I think that, that, that conversation had begun even before I, ⁓ I came on board of their relationship. But she was absolutely perfect and I was really excited to work with her and she was lovely on on set and just she brought that energy. ⁓ Court: Yes. Cait: Okay. Court: Amazing. Cait: Yeah. Court: Yeah. Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Dawn Wilkinson: So Court: Yeah. Well I would say you had that casting. Sorry, Cait, go ahead. Cait: ⁓ I was just gonna say you cast Chelah, Chelah Horsdal, who's amazing. ⁓ And I also loved what she did the role of the mom in your episode. And I had one more specific question, then I want to hear Court's questions. But it was about Chelah as the mom. And I was like, the role, when, when Hannah calls her mom and is, you know, breaking down crying and it's all my fault. ⁓ And I loved the way that you Court: Yes. Dawn Wilkinson: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Court: Yes. Cait: all chose to play that, that the mom didn't lean into, you know, the melodrama of it, but she was like, you know, it felt like a real mom and they've already been through the heavy drama of that, you know, years ago. ⁓ did you guys, how did you ⁓ about shooting it that way and making those decisions? You're a mom also. Court: No. Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. I yeah, I know and it it's true. And like I also have like a really, really like my, ⁓ my mom in my life has always been a really strong influence. We've had really close relationships. So ⁓ anytime have the opportunity to like explore a mother-daughter situation, I'm just like right into it. Like there's certain themes thematically that I'm just that are sort of I feel like they're totally in my world of like stuff that I've thought about and experienced. So I first of all, even just reading it the first time, I was like, ⁓ oh I love the dynamic between Hannah and her mom 'cause it's- Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Court: Mm-hmm. Dawn Wilkinson: What we talked about was that, you know, this isn't like the first time they've ha- like I think Hannah's mom, having known what she's gone through, has been kind of waiting for this moment when Hannah's really willing to express it and, and she can comfort her in a way that she just hasn't been able to because Hannah can't articulate it. So we were kind of trying to find that, that kind of sweet spot of like understanding and Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Mm. Dawn Wilkinson: acceptance and like, like letting Hannah know that what she did was- she didn't do anything wrong. You know, like Hannah's always feeling that what somehow, not that she brought it on herself, but like every time she tries to ⁓ about what happened, it just causes a, a ripple effect of negative things to everyone. So like she's been unable to ta- to discuss it. And so this is like, it was just like a really important moment and like to do it in a phone call, you know, was was like how do we ⁓ get that across? And so the actors were like they, they, you know, 'cause when you do a, when you shoot a phone call on set, you don't usually have the other person available. But Chelah came and read with read with Ella. Yeah. Yeah. Court: Mm. Yeah. Cait: Yeah, yeah. Court: You really, you really did catch I think I want to say before I go further into the beauty that you did catch, ⁓ there's that popular meme going around of a lot of older women being like, Garrett Graham is a fictional character written by a woman, and it's that reminder. But I think what's so ⁓ great about show that people forget to include in that, also through a woman's gaze and the fact that all these episodes were directed by women, I just Cait: Nice. Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. Court: think is a ma- and a female showrunner and everything is so female centric. And I think that's why this show is so successful and why it's resonating with such a big audience. Because those little details, those convos like whether you're a boy mom or a girl mom, you also have a mom, like we know those relationships so innately. And I think it can only really be captured through someone that has that gaze. And that's why that moment from like your lens to their acting, their parts, it just comes across so poignant and true. Like the Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. Court: mom phone conversations, I think the call to do it on the phone was so right on because that is where you have the hard conversations as an adult. Like when I had to admit, admit, but when I went through postpartum, I had to call my mom and tell her that can- and that's like where I did. Like I had called to confess that because there's like a safety on the phone, but that's also where you can share those dark thoughts or secrets or moments. So I really, I really loved that moment. It got me all teary because it is just that mother-daughter Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: connection and her response to it and the way you, it edited and the back and forth, it just, it like ⁓ it just sat here but in such a great way. And I yeah, kudos to you on that. Cait: Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah, the emotional stuff is like one of my main interests directing wise. Like, you know, we, we did many takes, ⁓ really of both sides of that conversation ⁓ to just really shape ⁓ the, the spaces and the and like being able to feel like you're in that conversation with them ⁓ was really important, you know, because that that's, that, that, that's how you like it feels real when Court: Mm-hmm. Mm. Cait: Yeah. Court: I was curious about that because you had a lot of heavy things in your two episodes. Like you really got the climax of all the big emotions, which to hear you say that's your interest as a director totally makes sense. Cause you really walked into the fire and like, okay, here you go. Which is so fun. And I mean, you had an extremely talented cast to work with to pull off all those huge scenes, but I was curious about that with like your planning and your storyboarding and Dawn Wilkinson: You know, in that way. Yeah. Yeah. Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: It's great. Court: where it ended in the editing, like how many versions, you know, you're seeing when she's at the beginning when she's listening to the music and trying to write and it's flashing between her and her mom and her therapist and the fan and him and him texting her. And you you rode that heartbeat so well and that pace and that build that we could feel it in our breath caught with her without even realizing it. Like we were breathing the same way Hannah was because of how you built that momentum. But I'm curious how much of that was found before and how much was found after. Cait: And Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. Cait: Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah, I think, I think in the editing ⁓ we added more flash pops than were scripted, but it was always scripted as as a montage and it always had that element. Like we always knew that the therapist office would be cut in like that, that was planned for, that it would that would be cut into it. And and I shot the sequence with the, the notebook and Hannah's reactions through that with all the beats, knowing that I was cutting to Garrett and cutting to the phone. So like Court: Mm-hmm. Dawn Wilkinson: To to a great extent, and I think it's one of the strengths of the show, it's very detailed. And so the montages tend to be scripted, and there's just room for the directors to add, like let's say the fan, you know, we the fan wasn't necessarily part of the first version of that edit, but that sequence in the police station is so ⁓ important emotionally that seeing it more than once ended up being really like helpful and, and helped Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Mm. Yeah. Mm. Court: Mm. Dawn Wilkinson: communicate what Hannah was going through because, you know, part of the- And what I what I also love about the show is the way that it has like, you know, these these characters who are pursuing their passions and they have great talent. So like Garrett and the hockey and Hannah and the music, but then they have this this trauma that like is kind of ⁓ preventing them from fully like realizing who they are in both their own life and in their relationships with each other. And so I really think that to express that tr- like what is it what does it do to the character to kind of go through and experience, how's that trauma affected Hannah? It's like the montage helps and the, and the flash pops help sort of show how piece- bits and pieces like are you're carrying them with you in a way and they're still like impacting you even if it's like the past. So I really ⁓ I felt like style wise Court: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: I enjoyed leaning into those montages because I felt like that fragmentation of reality is like part of what the impact of a trauma like that is. And just and also trying to recover from it, you know, that those fragments don't like part of good getting through it is sort of addressing how that feels. So yeah. So I, I love the montages for that. And I really appreciate that the writers give- because sometimes on shows it'll it will be less specific in terms of what the details of a montage would be. And and here it was quite specific. Cait: Totally. Court: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cait: Mm-hmm. Yeah. ⁓ That's why they worked so well. Cause they really did, like and in your episodes, you know, like we were just talking like we've been talking about, they really did hit that your breath gets caught the same way hers is getting caught. And it does feel that way when you're going through you know, when you do carry like you'll be walking down the street and something will just look from years ago and it's so disorienting and it's very cool to hear you describe like how Court: ⁓ that's wonderful. Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. Just flashes, yeah. Cait: they wrote it purposely that way and you directed it that way because it's always interesting like how you can take it from the page and lift it off and make it work on screen, you know? And making I read a thing that one of the showrunners and who also wrote on it, Louisa Levy, was ⁓ really tried to sort of like externalize all the inner monologue of the book, which is so much of Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. Court: Mm. Dawn Wilkinson: Yes. Cait: book adaptations, because in books we're in the characters' heads, and that's what's so delightful, you know, and like calming or gets you more emotionally attached sometimes than when you watch something and it's just being like pushed at you. ⁓ Yeah, yeah. But it this, the way you shot this, it we got to feel like we were in it, even you know, and so it worked really well. Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. Yeah, you're on the outside. Court: gave it version you couldn't have imagined. Like you wouldn't when reading even her head, you wouldn't see the fan and the flashing and the breath. Like there's no way to really write that in a book properly, but you- which is actually very hard to do and the combination of the writers and your lens and the actors, you did put us there. And that doesn't happen very often. So this like the sign of a good adaptation is you still get to have the inner monologue. Cait: Mm-hmm. Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. Cait: Yeah. No. Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: That's right. That's, that's, that I think that's very important. And I think when I approach it like as a director, I'm thinking because here's the thing, like when you're, you know, when you're reading, you're you're imagining it in your own mind and you're able to fill in the blanks and picture it yourself according to the author's voice. But like the director becomes that translator in a certain way where like I'm, I'm sort of picking what shots and visuals are will, will show the point of view that I'm seeing. Court: Mm-hmm. Dawn Wilkinson: But what I do is try to really think through like an ex- And I just ha, it happens when I read a script as like I, I can sort of put myself in the character's mind in a certain way. And so I feel like a big part of what I do is shaping the perspective of the scenes so that you really feel like you're with the character who's like the right character, who's emotionally the core of what what's happening story wise. So that like when I make decisions about like what to show and how to show it, a lot of the time it's because I wanna be inside a certain character's experience. Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: You know, and that's and 'cause even in that mom ⁓ phone call, you know, there was like there was enough that you could see not just Hannah's side of it, but like, you know, how the mom experiencing her daughter finally facing something that she knew ⁓ been really hard for her to face and, and gave her the chance to like tell her it would be okay. Which is like, you know, what we all want. But you get, ⁓ get to see the mom's side of it too. So that's... I do, I do think about it and, and then like choosing Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: Hers. Yeah. Cait: Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: in a cut where to be and who's, who to be like who to see their reaction ⁓ you know, how to see that reaction and what the timing should be is all based on like emotionally, where am I? You know, where do I need to be that's the kind of the question I'm always asking, kind of like I'm kind of on the inside, but also like more objectively and I try to decide like what are the best shots to really communicate it. Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Court: Yeah. Well, that ties into one of the questions I had for you because I do find I felt like you're, you're tied to emotions with your lens. You can- It's artful. Like you can tell you're someone that has that empath and has those feelings big because you can feel it come through when you're watching it. ⁓ As someone that's emotional, like it takes you on that ride. And I found that very interesting with the Garrett scene when he recognizes who Delaney is. ⁓ Because that could have been done so many ways, but you kept it Cait: Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. Yeah. Cait: Mm. Court: really simple actually. Like it's actually like three kind of like looking, glance, puck drop. Like you didn't and we see it later when he flashes back and actually watches the fight. But was that did you get that before? Was that always kind of your ⁓ image for it? Or did you find that when you were in the emotion and watching it kind of play out through your lens? Like what was the balance of that? Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. Well, I think when it comes to the things that happen on the ice. ⁓ Court: another question. How is the ice? We'll go there after. ⁓ Cait: Mm-hmm. I'm so curious now we have that question too. Dawn Wilkinson: but honestly it's, it's, it's very, it's very planned out. Like, you know, Garrett, ⁓ I, I, I it's, it's more like I just sort of know when I wanna be right in, ⁓ right up in people's You ⁓ know, ⁓ and, and and the point of view from a distance is more important, just in terms of like who, ⁓ who is having the And I think for ⁓ Court: Yeah. Yeah, how close, you know. Cait: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dawn Wilkinson: for that moment that like- ⁓ to, to that was, that was planned because to get like those type of close ups- cause that's what you're talking about, right? When they're in the face off when they're looking at each other. Yeah. And like and it's also a fun, like curious challenge to like get those great eyes looking at each other ⁓ or reacting through the Court: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. With a face mask? Cait: Yeah, yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: the, through the helmets, you know, because it's like ⁓ you know, part of what- It's funny because I know, I the, the, the hoc, hockey choreographers who are amazing are like, you know, Dawn likes it authentic. We gotta get it authentic. ⁓ You know? Because like I, I do wanna feel like, I wanna feel like I'm really on- But it, it is to do emotions in a hockey sequence. That's like a next level ⁓ Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Okay. Court: Mm. Dawn Wilkinson: ⁓ technical challenge and you asked earlier about storyboarding. That was something that was storyboarded also. Yeah, because, because... Thank you. Yeah. You really pulled it off. Cait: It was one of our big, one of both Court and I, we know we were going over questions we had and both of us had the question of like, how do you capture all this drama on the ice? Like ⁓ and, and have it look like they're actually playing hockey. Like really. You wear skates. Okay. Yes. Court: Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. posted any the pictures yet, but I'm going to. like, and that was like just a fun, you know, behind the scenes experience for me because, you know, growing up in Toronto, ⁓ I I've skated as a kid and I and I actually played hockey when I was like in four and five. ⁓ And ⁓ I'm not like ⁓ you know, I don't want to oversell it. I'm not like amazing, I skate. Court: Yeah. You what? Yeah. I've Dawn Wilkinson: I could skate well enough. I could skate well enough that I could be on the ice when the actors were on the ice and when I would need to just you know, there's always like a way that like if I'm farther away, I can give a note to an assistant director who will give a note to another assistant director who will give a note to actor. ⁓ And certainly when it's necessary, I, I do that and everyone is great. You know, they're all very talented and, and can, can communicate my ideas, but I prefer to be in the mix and I prefer to be right in there with the actors and the cameras. Cait: Yeah. ⁓ huh. Dawn Wilkinson: Because then, then that bit of inspiration, you know, you can execute things quicker. And it's fun. It's fun to skate at work, I have to say. So like I would, I would be able to give them a note. ⁓ But the funny thing I realized, because after like years of you know directing, I, I have a process and it's like I have an idea of what I want to tell the actor about how to make an adjustment, and it's in my head, and I'm walking over to them to formulate like how I'm gonna say it. And then I get there and I'm like, okay, so I think in this moment we could do this or that. Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: It is. Cait: Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: And what I found was that when I was on skates, I would get there so fast that I wouldn't have the ⁓ I would be like, ⁓ I don't know 'cause ⁓ just like my brain didn't have the time to like put the words together because I was like there in two seconds. So all had... ⁓ Exactly. ⁓ Court: Yes. Cait: Yes. You had it half formulated. Court: between the takes? I felt like I had do I did a show Ducks and I had to be a bad skate, like a, a mom that was doing a shootout competition to do it. And I had to be a bad skater, but like you, I grew up skating and I played hockey and like I can actually do it also. Whenever I was in between, then all of a sudden I'd be like whipping around the ice and getting to like feel like I was 12 again and like stopping hard and ⁓ yeah, so is that you in between? Dawn Wilkinson: ⁓ Cait: Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: Mm. That- Almost. I mean, I don't think I stopped hard so well, although up towards the end I got better. I got more better and more confident because it happened, and it happened in prep that ⁓ I was really glad, like Louisa was like ⁓ if I wanted to- When I like I know how to skate, she's Do you want to go on the ice? And I was like, Really? Like I, I would love to because I know that also for the shooting of it all, it needs to happen very quickly and there's a lot of time. So like Cait: Yeah. Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Right. Dawn Wilkinson: if there is this like slower process of me giving notes, you just end up it's just you can't shoot as fast. And like it there is with these sequences. Yeah. There- To me a big thing with my directing too like is that I, I kind of know where I need to spend the time so that I can have the time for performances and takes where the scene requires it. Whereas something else might be able to shoot faster. I don't think like every scene, sometimes my assistant directors are like, what is happening? Cause like one scene will go super fast. Cait: You lose the day. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Yeah. Yep. Dawn Wilkinson: will take like way longer than they expect. And it's really just I'm leaning into trying to put the time where it's gonna live, live on screen, you know. So the skating was just, you know, once once I did like a, a test run of of ⁓ skating at rehearsal, I passed the test and then I was able to just be on the ice for everything. And that in that case, because I was for that scene, I was really I was near them, you know, like when to look and, and, and what to play in slow motion and you know Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Court: Yeah. Yeah. Cait: Mm-hmm. Dawn Wilkinson: all that stuff and like how to get the eyes through the through the helmets and everything. Like I was right, I was right in there making those adjustments and I feel like that's, that's when I, I, I, I'm doing my thing, you know, and I know that I'm like really crafting it. Yeah. Court: Yeah. Cait: Nice. Yeah. Court: That's it. How many days were you on the ice? Was it all in one day or did you do two days? Dawn Wilkinson: It was a couple of days. I can't even, you know, 'cause we had days that we were on the ice and then we had days where we were in the stands or in, in the tunnels or in the change rooms and, and different things. So like I c- I can't I, I'm sure we were at the arena for at least five five or so, five or six days, but it they weren't it wasn't all skating days, you know. Court: Right. Right. Cait: Yeah. No, it wasn't. ⁓ Speaking of the, ⁓ speaking of the change rooms, ⁓ a very exciting scene. ⁓ Court: Yeah. I'm assuming you were block shooting ⁓ thank. go there yet. Hold on. Because I want the more serious thing than then into the lighter. ⁓ But there's... I'm assuming you block shot 107 and 108? Two episodes, Dawn Wilkinson: Mm-hmm. Th, th, th, this show a lot of shows now do this where you do ⁓ two episodes at a time. in a in a way it's kind of like shooting a little movie because you shoot for about twenty days and prep for about eighteen days or you know, fifteen days. So altogether it ends up being like a it's kind of ends up being more like a ⁓ movie shoot in the way the schedule feels. So but ⁓ it means like on any given if it you might have scenes from both episodes. Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Yeah. Court: Yeah. And the length of it. Cait: Mm-hmm. Dawn Wilkinson: So it requires a little more like underst- like keeping a larger story in mind. Yeah. Court: Because you had such important emotional arcs with this, that was my question with it, like, was it pretty linear in their emotions or you were you really like, Okay, and now we're here and you just have this memory of your like for the actual big scenes between like Delaney and him and her remembering it and the confrontation and the fight after, were they all over the place with your schedule or were those pretty linear? Yeah. Cait: Mm-hmm. Dawn Wilkinson: I'm sure they were all over the place. Yeah. And so I think what one of the things that I like to do and I did on this show and I do when I when sort of the show allows for it is I do ⁓ meetings with all the actors in prep. And so we have a page turn and discuss, you know, what their- what their story arc is, 'cause again, that's trick tricky on set when you're working so quickly and, and out of sequence. That, Cait: Mm. Yeah, with block shooting they always are. Yeah. Court: Yeah. Mm. Cait: Nice. Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: you know, you wanna have an and an especially on a new show in a first season and I'm new to the cast and we're all just new, ⁓ find a common language and figure out like give them a chance to prep with some of my direction in mind, I think is probably what I'm going what I'm really doing, you know, is like trying to get a conversation started too, so that if- c- it can be, what I love about those meetings is there's always a discovery of something that like some prop that is needed or ⁓ Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Cait: Mm. Dawn Wilkinson: a discussion around the tone that we can then bring to the set, but at least when we we're having that conversation on set, it's not the first time we're having it. You know, like we've really ⁓ for, for the way that the, the Delaney ⁓ gets revealed, you know, and how that impacts, how that impacts, you know, Hannah and how that impacts Garrett, like in terms of like when when Hannah sees him on the ice and, and, and then and then when Garrett, you know Court: Right. Mm-hmm. Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: Mm-hmm. Dawn Wilkinson: An interesting thing I'll say about the, Oh I'm gonna go on an another tangent. Before I before I go there. ⁓ no, no. ⁓ but I just we before I get into that the tangent that I do want to go on. ⁓ We, we sort of talked about how, how much violence that Hannah would see in terms of the fight on the ice and how much we would see in 7 and how much we would see in 8. And so we, we kind of went into it Court: Go for it. Go on it. Please do. Cait: Please, please do. Court: Mm. Dawn Wilkinson: ⁓ like the in terms of the conversation that I had with Ella, she sh she knew we were gonna do kind of like levels in terms of like 'cause she has to go from like kind of enjoying the game to realizing who, you know, just to looking at Delaney and like dealing with the fact that Garrett, you know, is right there with him. So we just talked about like how, how, how much to express, like how much she's keeping in and how much she's showing. Because I think Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Mm-hmm. Dawn Wilkinson: like an important thing for an actor to think, think about like how, how much is being expressed and how much is being kind of ⁓ how much you're trying to cover in a certain moment. So, so that's the kind of like emotional beats we talk through in those meetings. But ⁓ something that was something that I really loved stylistically that was something that I, I kind of came up with when Garrett in 8 looks at his phone and kind of has the memory of the fight. Court: Mm-hmm. I loved that. Dawn Wilkinson: And then we go into the memory and see the moment that Logan comforts like sort of takes him aside and everything. That was, it was always it was to just be on the phone. And, and so like he 'cause as if he would look at like it was scripted that he looked at the phone and, and, and, and saw as and, and then remembered. But sorry, he at it and he just saw what, you know, Jules kind of reported. And then I wanted to Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Mm. Court: Mm-hmm. Dawn Wilkinson: go further with that and go right into the memory because I was staging the fight and I knew that emotionally, as much as we love to shoot the phones, you know, just a phone insert wouldn't quite wouldn't satisfy emotionally. And I really wanted to go inside his head. I really wanted to be in that moment where he loses it, you know, in a certain way. And we were careful about it. And I think some we were always we've always cautious about how aggressive Garrett appears, ⁓ Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Mm-hmm. Dawn Wilkinson: you know, because as a love interest, we don't wanna mm glamorize the aggression. That's it I guess that's the fine line. We didn't want to glamorize the f- the or, or make the aggression look sexy in any way, right? But at the same time Court: Yeah. Yeah. Which that balance was amazing because in the book Cait: Right. Well it's Yeah, that's what I was gonna say in the book. Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. Cait: I think it's like she said, I didn't ask you to, right? Like if she had in some way, you know, given a given an indication that she would have wanted him to do that, then ⁓ different, you know? But that, that what is what made it play because in the book it's actually very glamorized and very sexy in the whole thing. But you know, it's a smut book. So like it's... There's a different- I think you can get away with a little bit more, honestly, in a book that is like smut versus ⁓ Court: Yeah. Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. Court: Well Cait: The show is on Amazon, which you guys did a great job of like still bringing in all that sexiness and smuttiness and fun, but making it a show and recognizing, you know, that the larger audience of the show, you know, like age-wise and all of these other things, like what the tone should be, and that it's a different medium. And I think there's like we've spoken to already before, there's a different effect from different mediums ⁓ versus like reading a book and seeing a show on TV. Court: Mm. Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. Yeah. Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: how it actually kind of affects you psychologically. ⁓ It's not the same. So it and it but it played out very well because it needed to like, as a reader, there's certain things where I was like, how are they gonna make this work on the screen? Like, how is it not gonna be watered down? Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Court: Delaney was cast very well too, because if there like he- I wanted him to get punched. Like if there's ever someone you're gonna punch, it's going to be a rapist. Like that's, that's like going to be okay in my book. ⁓ ⁓ was done in a way, ⁓ you said, like you guys walked that line, I think, ⁓ really well and still kept the intention of it that is believable. And I loved Garrett's speech. Like, I you had the balance of cases of the fun, because having ⁓ Minka's story, sorry ⁓ Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah, totally. Court: Allie's storyline happening in the juxtaposition of the serious Hannah and Garrett storyline really kept that like fun, sexy spice book fun of it with the very serious undertone of what their situation was. And even those edits and back and forth that you just landed on was very well done to balance it out. Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. Cait: Mm-hmm. Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. Cait: Mm-hmm. Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. I mean I think that tone is also is, is like very carefully ⁓ maintained on the show because it is, it you want it, it, it does need to be, like there is a, a fun that we want keep like this and this fun ⁓ sort of aspirational like ⁓ you know best version of fun college experience in a certain way, a sexy experience. But it's still ⁓ yeah, like when I, when I think about Cait: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Dawn Wilkinson: Garrett and ⁓ like just to go back to that scene with with the with the fight, like it it was... It worked, I think partially because the most violent version of it happens in Garrett's mind and not for Hannah to see in a certain way. Like so we as the audience can still experience- Because I, because I do think that's what another thing that's really clearly working about the show is that, that it's, it's both, you know, aligned with the female characters and the Cait: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dawn Wilkinson: their, their experience of the world. But the, but the, but the men are also celebrated. Do you know what I mean? For, for for their, I mean hockey is a very aggressive ⁓ sport, to do it properly. And I think that's, that's the other thing I really love about the show is that it gives me a chance to do ⁓ stuff very visceral and physical visually. Like and at the same time it has these very ⁓ light, loving ⁓ Court: Yeah. Cait: Yes, yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: moments and like these intimate scenes and these kind of ⁓ it's so it's not all in this serious heavy tone but it's like it it has a good balance of, of a range of, of like human emotions, a range and the and also like this ⁓ the, pacing and the way it feels. There's just a lot going on, which makes it interesting, I think. ⁓ So know, I love that ⁓ sequence at the bar with, with, with, with Allie and ⁓ Hunter. Yeah. Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Court: Yeah. Cait: Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: So fun, right? It's so fun. And and, and just that Joanna could come in and like see that Allie she just totally gets where Allie's at, you know. And I and I like Allie as I think it's interesting how as a character she's both ⁓ like super sort of focused on her goals and like, you know, being an actress and, and, and getting her sort of career going, but she's also so stuck on like this one relationship and like kind of how do you ⁓ Cait: So fun. Court: Yeah. Cait: Yeah. Court: Mm. Cait: I think. Court: Mm. Dawn Wilkinson: How do you like be your own person as a, as a young woman and find your your kind of way and your own ⁓ journey, but also satisfy, you know, your emotional and sexual and sensual, you know, needs. Like she's just trying to figure that out. And that's I think a really im, im, kind of interesting question to, to, sort of explore in a romance, you know? Cait: Yeah. Court: Yeah. Cait: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Court: Well she my favorite line of hers is right off the top of your episode when she's like, I'm really sorry I didn't want you to find out that way. But also, how can you say that it would break to me along? It's just so funny because it is that. Like I'm sorry, but also how dare you? Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. I'm sorry, and who is it going? Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: How dare you? Yeah. Court: part, from that to where it went to next with the with Gareth. I'm like, yeah, that's what the magic of the show is. It's just like the perfect balance, as were saying. And talking of the fun scenes, one of the best scenes in the book that Cait, go ahead, that we are talking about. Yeah. Yes. But you did it! ⁓ You fully did it. it was perfectly. Dawn Wilkinson: ⁓ boy, I know what's coming. Cait: The locker room scene. Dawn Wilkinson: A lot of them. Yeah. Court: The locker room scene of all the penises. Too many penises. Cait: All the penises. But 'cause it's so funny in the book and it's such a like quintessential moment. And it was really fun that you went for it in the show. ⁓ and it looked like like Dawn Wilkinson: Yes. Iconic looked green. Court: Yes. And I'm assuming did you cast that as well? Was that part of your casting purview? Dawn Wilkinson: I, I will admit that was part of my casting. But I think ⁓ I mean truly, you know, it's funny because it's always kind of a little awkward to do intimacy scenes in a traditional sense where it's like, you know, kissing and implied, you know, sex, sex off camera or whatever. Court: Ha Cait: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Mm-hmm. Dawn Wilkinson: This was different because it wasn't a s- it wasn't an intimate scene. Like the yes we it intimacy like we would call it intimacy and you have an intimacy coordinator anytime you're doing any kind of nudity. But like it wasn't, it was not sexual in nature, you know. So it's like so it's this awkward thing where you have to like first of all find the cast who are willing to, you know, you know, be... Court: No, no. Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Court: Yes. Cait: No. Court: Mm. Cait: Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: And not everyone's read it. So they don't know that like this is an iconic book scene. Like this was one of the scenes from the very beginning when I read it. I'm like, wait, like, am I acting like how, how do you want and, and, and Louisa is like, No, we've got we're doing it. Like you've this is, the, this is, this is expected and this is a big- ⁓ it's an important moment and we're gotta go for it. And I'm like, Okay. You know. So, so it was- but it was, you know, it's sort of, you know, interesting with the with the camera, camera department. Court: What is this now? Cait: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: And the operators are men and you know, I remember being like, they're like so like we're just discussing the shot size, you know, in terms of like where where I wanna be and what I need to show. And I'm like, I, I demonstrate on my own body, like put the frame here, like they just look at me and I'm like, It's the book, like it's the moment. Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Cait: Right. Court: Here this area Yeah Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Court: I love it, two Cait: Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. Yeah. Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: just part of a love story and a funny scene that no one shied away from. And yes, thank you. It's so great. Like I, I'm so glad you went for and especially because it's a very important scene, not only because it's an iconic scene, but the adaptation changed the end of the scene from the book. It changed the Garrett's part in the hands-off policy, which is a ⁓ happens in adaptations. But again, I think it helped the viewer, the people that read the book, ⁓ Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. Cait: Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: You're welcome. Cait: Mm-hmm. Yes. Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. Court: not be upset about her map because it was done in the tone and in the spirit and in the scene and it made sense for the Garrett we had watched go along this journey that, that was his response and true to who he was. But because it wasn't just plopped in but put in the middle of the scene that felt true to the book. I think it just made that marriage of adaptation and book so well done. So... Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. Cait: Mm-hmm. Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's, that's great. Yeah, yes, it was Cait: I also think, you know, the, the hockey romances of there's so many and like and sports romances, the locker room is a thing, you know? ⁓ And it's in there and it, it's ⁓ usually an interesting, intimate space in that, you know, the locker room for men is so like, ⁓ this is just like where they chill and hang, then the moment a woman enters it's like, you know, all of a sudden sex is in the room. Court: Yeah. Cait: You know, in for the for the straight hockey romances, right? And so, ⁓ it was just it was yeah, it was very satisfying to see it played out and played out that well ⁓ it the book to the screen. ⁓ Which was really cool. Yeah. Court: Mm-hmm. If you only showed me that clip of the show coming up, I'd be like, ⁓ they cast the perfect Dean. Like just from his ⁓ literal response to Ella, was like, Yep, they got it. Okay. They understand. Cait: ⁓ And so then, Dawn, did you, you did read did you read the book or just the scripts? Like for what was your prep on that? Were you Dawn Wilkinson: Totally. Yeah, yeah. I, I, I, I got into the book and then I, I, I to see the differences in the scripts and then I said, I think I need to focus on the scripts and the version that Louisa's designed in order to not get like confuse it, I think is the ⁓ and to lean from to her to, to the version of it that we were shooting. You know what I mean? Like I would look back at it sometimes for things if there was something specific like the locker room, but generally I try to focus Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: Mm-hmm. Mm. Cait: Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. Court: Mm-hmm. Dawn Wilkinson: my energy into the adaptation version so that I didn't question certain things that I think had been figured out, you know, by Louisa and the writers, if that makes sense. Cait: Muddy the waters. It makes total sense. Cause it's ⁓ that's why that was like one of the questions I wanted to ask them like that must that would be tricky to have like the book version in your head and then the script version. Yeah. And then and you and you do, you only have that couple of weeks of prep for, you know. It's that much time to kind of ab, absorb it all and like let it sink in. Court: Yeah, totally. Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. Both versions in your head when it's not done. That's right. Walk with Court: my question with it. How long did you have in your editing after? Because it's a series and it's kind of like the mini movie. Because I remember when we did the episodic show together, you were like, ⁓ I have to have this in like in a week. Like I get like two days for a quick turnaround and go. How did it work for this show? Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. ⁓ It's much more time, honestly, because I mean, I will say that the editors are really strong and then what happens when I finish shooting is I get a cut pretty quickly. So within like a week or two, they send me a an edit, which is... It's not just like an assembly of all the scenes. They put music, they, they, they think about spacing. It's, it's a, it's a good cut. And ⁓ Court: Okay. Cait: Nice. Court: ⁓ Mm. Cait: Yeah, nice. Dawn Wilkinson: In, in terms of some moments, like I'm pretty sure that moment where I go into Garrett's mind and show more of the fight because it wasn't scripted that way, like that kind of stuff, I would have told the editors. But in general, they're cutting to the script. And then I have like basically a week on each episode, and then there's a new ⁓ involved with the directors guild. And they get the, the new thing is the producers now have a chance to give notes on that first cut, like basically the directors cut. Court: Mm-hmm. Okay. Dawn Wilkinson: And then they give ⁓ notes and you get a couple more days per episode to address those notes. So it, it's, it ends up being I think it's like officially it's like six, six business days per episode, but there's time in between where you're waiting on those producer notes. So it you know, it's, it's about a month of editing, I would say, if you really like look at like the, the cuts and the time involved in, you know, watching everything and ⁓ it definitely changes through that process and probably ⁓ the Court: ⁓ amazing. Cait: Okay. Yeah. Court: Yeah. Cait: The back and forth. Dawn Wilkinson: Like the, the montage pieces, the action in the hockey, finding sometimes massaging the performances, you know, and also I'm, I'm my episodes were also quite long. I remember having to try to, try to, tr, try, try to tighten and tighten to to just get them down time wise. Yeah. Cait: Yeah. Yeah. It makes sense. What about the music? The soundtrack is so great for this show. Did ⁓ Did have a hand in that or was some of it kind of pulled before or? Court: There's a lot to cover in your episodes. It's a lot. Yes. Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. Not a lot in the sense that like the song like we have a really great music team who, who sort of sources all the all the music and so that's provided ⁓ we kind of ⁓ from the selects that you know we were given. And sometimes some of those songs even change through the producer's cut. So for example, ⁓ like the Mazzy Star ⁓ in episode 8, which Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: Right. Cait: Yeah. Court: Mm-hmm. Dawn Wilkinson: was not the scripted song, so I didn't actually put it in, but I was like but I loved it. I c, I cut to a song that was a different song with a slow with a pace that was similar. And they changed it and I was like so delighted because I think that Mazzy Star song was perfect. Cait: Mm-hmm. The Mazzy Star song was perfect. The references that are also in the book of like her favorite movies and everything are perfect. And I think they help... Like I'm 41. So ⁓ lot of times shows like this lose my interest very quickly because they're geared a lot younger and I just don't see myself in them or like resonate or whatever. Like I, I get bored, you know, I'm like, yeah, I've already lived that. ⁓ But this one kind of felt like Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. Cait: with the music and some of and the like Dirty Dancing references and the stuff. And then also with the parents actually being a little bit more a part of it, you know. ⁓ I was like, ⁓ I'm, I'm in, like I'm actually in, you know, while watching this. And it's not necessarily geared to my age group. And then I've spoken to a couple of other women like around my age and they're like, Yeah, I loved that Off Campus show, you know? ⁓ Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. ⁓ Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Why? And it's that it's like Maz ⁓ my god, Mazzy Starr. Like I grew up listening to Mazzy Star as a teenager, you know, like that was the makeout music when I was in high school. Like this is fun. ⁓ Court: Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Court: Yeah. it's because of all the women involved in this show, the showrunner and the writers and the directors and that got that lens that no matter what age you are, you get pulled in. It's literally like that simple of a math. Like if you let women do it for women, we will watch it ⁓ because it, it's Cait: Mm-hmm. Dawn Wilkinson: It's so true. That dancing clip, remember because we all that anytime you want to show a clip from another movie, there's a whole legal process and it's better to have it on set if you can for the actors to see it, for us to know what the clip is. And I and I remember I, I ⁓ going through and, and, and them to send me 'cause they sent me a clip, but I think it was like a real a wide shot in the clip and I'm like, ⁓ I'm gonna, it's gonna be on the small laptop screen, like I need faces and so like just even choosing like that's what I mean about the show being so detailed is like Cait: ⁓ yeah. Court: Yeah. Cait: Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: They, they support in production supporting like how to find exactly the right clip for that moment for that reference. Because even though I don't think I mean I don't know it I ⁓ it's it's ⁓ in the most amazing way that like the range ⁓ ⁓ age of the audience than the women that love the show. But, but we definitely ⁓ know I know I was thinking to myself like what do what what I think is like the best ⁓ a certain way. You know what I mean? Like letting that Court: Yeah. Cait: Yeah. Court: Yeah. Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: like letting that live. Like I like I d the Dirty Dancing reference obviously wasn't wasn't my idea, but finding the right clip and making that like choosing the best clip for it was, you know. So I enjoyed that. ⁓ Cait: Mm. Court: Yeah. You did it very well. Yes. Cait: there's a ⁓ just as kind of wrap up here, ⁓ there's ⁓ in the her music teacher mentor and she goes to him and she's gonna quit and everything. ⁓ And he of I and I think it relays back to, you know, like with directing and, and writing and acting and all of it. And how do you feel about the storyline that he had in there of, you know, art and telling the truth and it being that being a part of it and telling your truth and that being painful versus Court: ⁓ I love that scene. Yes. Cait: it can also be like, it being joyful. Like where do you? Dawn Wilkinson: I love it. I remember I can tell you that day I was way behind schedule ⁓ because of the poetry I wanted to make there. You know, I think it read like a scene where she walked in the room and had a conversation about I you know, I want to leave I, I don't I don't think I can do this and, and him just sort of encouraging her and t telling her a story. But the way that I shot it, ⁓ we really made a whole meal out of it, which I felt was important ⁓ to convey like ⁓ Court: Yeah. Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Court: Mm-hmm. You did. It's so good. Dawn Wilkinson: the emotional, like even because you wanna even his song, like when he's when he's playing the piano, it's like that I made more out of that than you would have expected if you were, let's see, sitting there with the schedule going, how long is the scene gonna take, these two people talking? You know, I because I really wanted to feel... I felt like it would work if we could feel that his emotions that he's putting into the music. We needed to Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Right. Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: Hannah needed to experience what a truthful emotional expression in music felt like. She had to walk right into it. And we had to experience it with her for when he's talking about this moment and how he's he is dropping his son off at daycare or that, that idea or just the idea of lone this this thing that's an emotional thing that's hard to put into words. Like that's the whole point, right? Like you it's not something you could articulate. The music is the way to express it, especially if you have that talent. Cait: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: So I, I really wanted to do that visually and to show like how he's in- he's completely lost. He needs to be completely immersed and completely lost in that creativity for us to understand the value of what it can really do for our, our, our mind and, and our and our way like our being, you know, like this is who, who he is. Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Mm-hmm. Dawn Wilkinson: And we needed to see- Hannah needs to walk in and see that when she's at the moment of like, I can't do it anymore. I can't. I needed to inspire her. She needs to be inspired and it and has to be like a visual thing and a, and a music thing. So the pacing and all that, like it was just it was just more than anybody was expecting on that day. Like on that day, I had one of those meetings at lunch when they're like, What's gonna happen? You know, that's how you know like Court: Yeah. Cait: Ha ha ha yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: I mean, I feel like sometimes it's like, okay, I it was successful because there was no lunch meeting. But like when there's a lunch meeting, you know, sometimes it's inevitable and you just have to like I'm like, this is just what it needs to be. Like he has to see that she's wavering, she has to question everything. Like it, it, it, it, it, it, it part of it was the performance. So in a way, and that's ⁓ the thing I love about the show that you, you know, it even in 8 when when we were getting into the, the showcase and, and figuring out how to shoot Cait: It is Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Yes. Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: Hannah's performance. I was like, my whole thing about that was like, this is her hockey game. Like this, this is as much about like, you know, being out there and having, having everybody see it and have it be big, just like, just like a big hockey game, because we want to feel like the scope of what like and this and the emotional stakes of what they're going through and the culmination of all this journey that she's had with Daveed, like needed to be, yes, she's on stage, but it had to feel Cait: Yes. Mm-hmm. Dawn Wilkinson: epic in a certain way, you know, and everyone had to be there and we had to see everybody's faces interacting with that performance and that special moment of like Garrett is there and the, you know, boom zoom in, you know, push in and, and really because it's a completion of, of what happens in that scene with Daveed and earlier in the season when she's really just trying to, you know, find her, her voice, you know, and, and finding her voice part of that is, is, is actually getting Court: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Cait: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Dawn Wilkinson: in touch with those feelings and not trying to bottle them up anymore or, you know, compartmentalize it whatever. So I, I had to show that as a not like a music video moment, but like a true performance emotional, like let the song play out and let our, all of us, like Hannah and the audience, experience it to know what's the value of really being able to, to, to give that piece of yourself. She couldn't do it like Justin challenged her about it, right? Like, you know Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: You do it if you want you want you write a song kind of thing. So I it I like seeing her go through that. And and yeah, that was like was right up there for me. Like I love the romance, I love the create- the creativity expression like story and then the competitive, aggressive, dramatic hockey hockey stuff. Like I just love it all. Cait: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Court: Yeah. Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Court: That moment because I rewatched it again last night, like when she does walk into the piano as you're talking about so eloquently, it literally I felt myself like take a deep breath. Like it literally impact like, ⁓ like it just that caught me the way that you've described it and what you wanted in it ⁓ very successfully happened played into like it just such a beautiful it gave me like goosebumps every time I see it. And even the scope you did with the empty theater and that and like from her per- right it's just it everything just worked together so beautifully. It like that pause you needed in such a big episode to like take a breath and just remember, like get back to your core values for both ⁓ and as the audience about what it's about. So it was really, really beautiful. Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. Exactly. Thank you. Yeah. And I was I did question I'm like, I knew that I loved it. And there were moments where I did things like, you know, that's such an extreme wide shot in that in that theater. And I did wonder to myself, like, will this survive the cut? You know, 'cause sometimes when an episode is long, those are the things that go, you know, sadly. Sometimes it's like a nice visual moment or a transition. And and in this case I was like so, so happy that Louisa decided to keep Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: That's good. Court: Mm. Cait: Right. Dawn Wilkinson: that's, that as you described it, like that's, that, that space really and, and visually allowed for that, which, you know, 'cause sometimes and it is like in television tends to be d d dialogue driven, you know, and characters need to say a lot and we need it in words. But anytime I can express something visually and have it be something that we can just see. It's, it's sort of like, you know, that's sort of my thing. Cait: Yeah. Court: Mm-hmm. Dawn Wilkinson: If I can do it, you know, when it's when it's called for in a way that will survive the cut and really give the audience that, that experience of in that case I was really trying to show how, how,how Hannah how, how Hannah felt and experienced Daveed's ⁓ mentorship really. Yeah. Cait: Absolutely. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Court: It was beautiful. With that, I had a question about your shots as a director for feeling that and then we will wrap this up. ⁓ but with the end of episode 8 and you have the Garrett and Hannah kiss in the parking lot and then it's transitions to their kiss at Malone's. ⁓ I just literally as a vibe. Like I've been on the other end of it of kissing someone, but as a director, like, when do you feel the need to cut? 'Cause it's gotta be these big epic kisses. Like, but just literally logistically you have to watch it, but you're also... Yeah, or like for your Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. Like ⁓ no like this too much. Court: balance. Obviously you also edit, but yeah, are you cause you are just watching there's still they're actors, of course, but there's still two people. Like when do you feel like what's that vibe for you to be like, ⁓ okay, we got it. Like Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah, I mean, well, I think with stuff like kissing, I just it goes into the intimacy category. So there's been a conversation already about the nature of this kiss, like how passionate, how many beats it should last, ⁓ how if it's more sweet or more sensual or more, you know, more movement or less movement. Like we actually when it comes to stuff like that, it's, it, it's not as much left to t like sometimes the actors will tell me, Okay, we'll we will show you and we will figure out what we think. But I generally give them Court: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dawn Wilkinson: a guideline from like the story perspective because we, we know at that moment they're back they're back together. You know what I mean? Like the conflict is over and it needed to be enough to last. ⁓ It, that was a scripted beat that they went the kiss from you know outside to inside was as a match cut. That was actually a scripted moment. But the way that it had to feel ⁓ is something that we had talked about. And then I, I will admit that with stuff like that, I usually shoot a little bit more than I think I need. Court: ⁓ well. Cait: Mm. Dawn Wilkinson: So that like if I want to go into it and then come out of it at a different like that there's just enough on all the different shots that I've done of it that I have a little bit of room to move. So I probably there's a couple extra seconds beyond what I think you would see in the show to make it work is probably the this way I approach it. But ⁓ also trying to keep in mind though, like I also try to minimize the takes on stuff like that. Like I rather do Court: Yeah, makes sense. Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Court: Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: two or three takes that are a little longer than what I think I need than like four or five takes. Because I think with anything, ⁓ intimacy, we just try to be mindful and respectful and just shoot the amount that's necessary, you know, and just a like a little bit extra in the sense that a little bit extra is necessary for the cut, but not like endlessly having the actors go through, you know, the stuff that can be I mean, granted they get more comfortable through a season where this is what they have scenes together, but ⁓ always try not to over Cait: Mm-hmm. Dawn Wilkinson: you know, overdo it or sorry, bounce that, ⁓ push it too far. Just, just, just to get the right amount. But we, we do talk in those page turns about what that kiss means, you know, like, you know, 'cause there always a story reason for whatever intimacy there is, and then we support that on set. So yeah. Cait: That's really cool. Court: is done well. All the kisses in it, like they could the ⁓ and ⁓ St James, who ends up being a Hunter Davenport kiss, like that's their first meet that could come across awkward on camera, even for the actors. They haven't been together all season. They're just like meeting and kissing. It could very easily be awkward. And it wasn't like everyone did, the intimacy coordinator and the director and the actors, like you all did a very good job of making it enjoyable to watch, which isn't always the case with kissing. Like, let us get it, it can be awkward quick. Dawn Wilkinson: And that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: But it never felt like that. So whatever your vibe is on that, it's in the right place 'cause Dawn Wilkinson: say it, but there's also I do love and I like to create an environment and, and he ⁓ was a ca- an actor that I was involved in the casting too. And so yeah, and he came in ⁓ you know, this episode without so exactly they didn't have a the whole point of it was they didn't have a relationship. ⁓ So when I like to create the space for the actors to also you know, come up with stuff in the moment. So ⁓ when he her close, that wasn't Court: ⁓ awesome. Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Court: Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: planned for necessarily or scripted. That was, I think I need to get her over here, you know, and, and she was like with it. And and so it created a kind of spontaneity. I think that's also the challenge of like a scene that requires a bit of spontaneity to like leave room for that to happen in the blocking in the moment and not be too dialed into what we've prepped, prepped to the point that we're like not willing to change it. Like when he wanted to do that, I was like, ⁓ yeah, that's great. Because we, we wanna feel the- Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: Mm-hmm. Dawn Wilkinson: Not just that she kisses some guy at a bar who's cute, but like that there's- ⁓ we want to get caught up in it the way that she does momentarily, right? Like what is the whole point of that? What is Joanna's whole lesson? It's like, yeah, like explore who you are. Allow for this moment, participate fully and then get carried away for a minute and then come back down to earth. You know, so that one was a, it was a, a different, a very different kind of kiss. And it I think definitely is harder for the actors when they're just meeting each other to, to pull off something like that, but, Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Court: Yeah. Dawn Wilkinson: but again, that, that would have been a time where I'm pretty sure I block, block shot that whole day in order to have enough time for that scene. To that, that, that beat, you know, so that it wouldn't have to be too rushed. Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Court: Yeah, it was great. Well, great job. Ugh. I can talk to you forever. Cait: Thank you much for coming on and chatting with us about directing ⁓ Off Campus, which is huge hit. It's really so fantastic. It's a great adaptation. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ Dawn Wilkinson: Yeah. ⁓ Court: So good. Everyone should watch it. And I have a tip for anyone people that are just book readers that have a hard time with adaptations, but this show in particular, watch it once and then get up. That way you can get all the book things out of your head and then watch it a second time. And that's when you'll really get pulled into the ride. That's what I wanted to be. I watched it once and I liked it. I'm like, ⁓ this is great. But I still had to I had yeah, I had to let go of everything. And then I watched it again and I was like, ⁓ okay, I'm just in. Like I just loved it. So it's a good way to do it if you read the books. Dawn Wilkinson: Thank you so much. I'm so glad you're doing And you were seeing this is that's different, yeah. That's great. Thank you so much ⁓ for having me in with today on the show. Court: You need two watches. Cait: Amazing. There you go. Yeah. It was fabulous. All right. Well, that is it for today's episode of Caitlin Court's Cozy Corner Romance Readers. Thank you again to director Dawn Wilkinson and the show Off Campus and Elle Kennedy and her book, The Off Campus Series. Read and watch it all, folks. It's all excellent. All right. Bye. Court: ⁓ Yes. Dawn Wilkinson: Take care. Thank you. Bye. Court: Hey.