Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / On the Beat: Transit Safety | Acting Superintendent Sean Halley

Transcript

On the Beat: Transit Safety | Acting Superintendent Sean Halley · Real Crime with Adam Shand

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Apoche production, Welcome to Real Crime with Adam shand I'm
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: your host Adam shand a change of pace this week,
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Let's get on the train. Like many of you out there,
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: the price of fuel has driven me back to public transport.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: An Australian motorists have been warned it could take months
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: for fuel prices to come down, even if the war
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: with a run in soon. I was on the Frankston
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Line the other night in Melbourne when I saw a
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: surly half drunk individual bullying and intimidating some women.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: Melbourne commuters report a sharp rise in anti social behavior
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: on metropolitan trains, with transport authorities urging passengers to report
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: incidents rather than intervene.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: They'd asked him to turn down the music he was
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: playing on his mobile phone, and he proceeded to swear
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: and curse and lean into them, putting his feet across
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: the isle under their seats, staring at them menacingly and
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: muttering threats. After about ten minutes of this, I suggested
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: that he leave them alone. This caused him to turn
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: his abuse toward me, which I was more than happy
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: to accommodate. As he came at me, I noticed the
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: women had gone to the end of the carriage and
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: pushed the distress alarm. I told this knucklehead unless he
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: sat down, he wasn't going home and could finish up
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: in the watchhouse. He sat down. He thought this was
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: hilarious and said he wouldn't mind that. His wish came
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: one step closer very soon at the next stop, five
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Protective Services officers from Victoria Police got on the train
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: and escorted him off.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: Protective Services officers made more than twelve thousand arrests on
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: Melbourne's rail network last year, figures that surprised even regular commuters.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: It got me thinking about the basic rights of people
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: using public transport, especially women, and how dangerous these situations
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: can be.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: A Victorian woman says she felt trapped and terrified after
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: a fellow passenger turned violent on a peak hour servers
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: and no one stepped into health.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: Sean Hally is the acting Superintendent in the Transit Safety
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: Division in Northwest Metro Region in Melbourne, and he's dropped
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: into the Real Crime Studio to talk about transit safety
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: and the work of Protective Services officers.
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: Welcome Sean, Yeah, thanks, Adam.
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: Absolutely pleasure to have you here, mate.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: I was really impressed the way your guys and girls
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: operated on the weekend. That's just another day for them.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Take me through. I think you know the background to
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: that incident. What actually happened in.
• 2:44
  Speaker 5: The end, Well, as you saw, the PSOs got on
• 2:48
  Speaker 5: the train and had a conversation with the mail who
• 2:51
  Speaker 5: was drunk. They took him off the train by consent
• 2:55
  Speaker 5: on his part. I put the options to him. I've
• 2:58
  Speaker 5: watched a body warm camera and they dealt with him
• 3:01
  Speaker 5: really well, really professionally. There was no physical intervention. It
• 3:06
  Speaker 5: was just through words, and obviously that communication is one
• 3:08
  Speaker 5: of their best weapons. He was protesting his innocence. Of course,
• 3:14
  Speaker 5: he did nothing, wanted to know where the evidence was.
• 3:17
  Speaker 5: They spoke about the call and what they had and
• 3:20
  Speaker 5: gave him some options. He refused to give his name
• 3:23
  Speaker 5: initially the PSOs. It was really impressive the way they
• 3:27
  Speaker 5: did it. One person took control and gave him a
• 3:31
  Speaker 5: number of chances to.
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: Provide his name and address.
• 3:34
  Speaker 5: They explained the offenses that he committed, which is offensive
• 3:37
  Speaker 5: behavior in decent language on the transport system, which is
• 3:41
  Speaker 5: a really strong piece of legislation. It's different to normal
• 3:44
  Speaker 5: Summary Offenses Act. It's under the Transport Act and he
• 3:47
  Speaker 5: refused to give his name. He was handcuffed, taken to
• 3:50
  Speaker 5: the pod which is at the Corefield Railway station, where
• 3:53
  Speaker 5: he was ultimately identified.
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: They did get his.
• 3:56
  Speaker 5: Name from him and issued with a couple of penalty
• 3:59
  Speaker 5: notices for that offending and released.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: What an unnecessary waste of public resources for somebody. I mean,
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: you have to use the resources. But someone who could
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: just be compliant, he decides to act up at every opportunity.
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: I'm glad that he was handcuffed.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: I say, I'm glad to hear that, because they would
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: have taken some of the fight because he was so
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: confident that he could get away with this behavior. I
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: said to him, is this how you treat your mother
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: or your sisters? Is this how women want to be
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: treated when they're out in the public. And I think
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: this is probably a daily occurrence for your guys and
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: girls on the transit system.
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it is society in general.
• 4:36
  Speaker 5: It's not just transit obviously, but the public transport system
• 4:39
  Speaker 5: tends to bring a different cohort of people occasionally. And
• 4:43
  Speaker 5: I think part of that is alcohol, because obviously we
• 4:47
  Speaker 5: sell the message not to drink drive, which is a
• 4:49
  Speaker 5: fair message so a lot of those intoxicated people get
• 4:52
  Speaker 5: on the trains, and of course that causes a bit
• 4:55
  Speaker 5: of an issue with that behavior and probably a little
• 4:58
  Speaker 5: bit off scope, but it was really disappointing.
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: It was a Richmond supporter, Richard.
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: Supporter, Yes, you think my investigative skills.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: I was going to say that, I think that they
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: played Gold Coast that day and they got a flogging.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: So he was feeling entitled to be how he wanted to,
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: and it just gave me a snapshot. A lot of
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: women face this on the system and they put up
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: with it day in, day out. Most of them don't
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: say anything. And these ladies, one of them was actually
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: a train driver. Yeah, so she understood what to do
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: and she went up and pushed the alarm and things
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: worked exactly how they should. But for a lot of women,
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: that's a very negative experience that they're used to having.
• 5:37
  Speaker 5: Yeah, so I was going to speak about that. So
• 5:39
  Speaker 5: I'm glad that there was a person who understood the
• 5:41
  Speaker 5: system there with that call button which does go to
• 5:44
  Speaker 5: the driver. That's a message I'd like to share that
• 5:47
  Speaker 5: if you need assistance on the trains, triple O all
• 5:50
  Speaker 5: the button and when persos are working. The train driver
• 5:54
  Speaker 5: will contact our office. I get as an m emgency
• 5:59
  Speaker 5: management as an officer who works out of Publy Transport
• 6:01
  Speaker 5: Network and they contact us through Triple O VIC and we'll.
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: Attend to the station.
• 6:07
  Speaker 5: So one of the messages about that when we do
• 6:11
  Speaker 5: need to call, it's nice to know what train line
• 6:14
  Speaker 5: you're on. You know what time obviously what time it is,
• 6:17
  Speaker 5: but what carriage you're on as well, because it's important.
• 6:19
  Speaker 5: Trains are six carriages long, some the longer, and it's
• 6:21
  Speaker 5: good for the PSOs, like on this occasion, to be
• 6:24
  Speaker 5: able to meet the train at the door and then
• 6:28
  Speaker 5: straight on they might be and be able to see
• 6:30
  Speaker 5: the offending still occurring, which is great for evidence.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, this bloke, he got such a shock because
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: they came on the train, they went straight to him.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: There was no establishing idea. It was him that was
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: the problem, and they dealt with them very well. And
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: I think that it was just that sort of I
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: like to see in police, that quiet authority, not somebody
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: who comes in there trying to swagger in and try
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: to impose their personality. This is the force of the state,
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: you know. And your guys said to him listen number
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: of complaints about you. I'm going to have to take
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: you off the train now. If you behave yourself, you
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: might be able to get on the next train, but
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: you'll have to leave with us now. And they were
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: just they're just quietly insisted that that was the case,
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: and he had no choice but to leave, and he
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: gave me a couple of sprays as he left. I
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: don't care, you know, but it brought home to me.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, these are dangerous situations.
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: Though.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: We've seen recently a young man who was actually murdered
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: on a train station at Munda when he.
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: Stepped in, not the way I did.
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: But this is a much different situation where there was
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: a theft going on and he ended up getting stabbed.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: So I guess it gives me pause to think, well,
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: did I do the right thing? Should I be stepping
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: in like that? It wouldn't stop me doing it again, frankly,
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: but should I be doing that when there is another
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: way to push the distress button and get professional help.
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a really good point.
• 7:40
  Speaker 5: We obviously don't advocate for people to intervene if it's
• 7:44
  Speaker 5: a dangerous situation. I think in your circumstance, you did
• 7:48
  Speaker 5: the right thing. It wasn't physical, it was just abuse.
• 7:52
  Speaker 5: He was wearing, you know, from a risk assessment point
• 7:55
  Speaker 5: of view, which you would have made without even thinking
• 7:56
  Speaker 5: about it, he was wearing a T shirt and shorts
• 7:59
  Speaker 5: to really know where where he could have a weapon.
• 8:02
  Speaker 5: I know you could secreate a weapon anywhere, but I
• 8:05
  Speaker 5: think the risk assessment was sound. But we obviously advocate
• 8:09
  Speaker 5: for people not to intervene, call triple O. Sometimes you
• 8:13
  Speaker 5: have to, and I think in this cubustantion it's the
• 8:16
  Speaker 5: right thing. And I won't say you got away with it,
• 8:18
  Speaker 5: but the outcome was positive.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: Yes, his main weapons were bullshit and bad manners, fortunately
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: in this case, so I didn't think he was a threat,
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: but I mean it makes me think because we are
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: seeing an increasing level of hostility and violence on our
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: train system, and your guys and girls are the front
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: line now, and I think people can underestimate the threat
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: we've got. I think it's thirty two high risk stations
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: on the Victorian network now where incidents do happen, you
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: cover them there at Dandenong, Frankston, places like that.
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: What are the kinds of things that your guys are
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: seeing each day.
• 8:57
  Speaker 5: I think it's important to say or touch on the
• 8:59
  Speaker 5: role of the PERSO and their powers when they're on
• 9:02
  Speaker 5: the transport network or a designated area, which is effectively
• 9:05
  Speaker 5: for the transit PSOs it's a railway stations, adjacent car parks,
• 9:10
  Speaker 5: and if it's a bus hub or a shopping center
• 9:12
  Speaker 5: attached to the police to the railway station rather so
• 9:15
  Speaker 5: when they're in a designated area, they're exactly the same
• 9:18
  Speaker 5: powers as police. So a lot of the public see
• 9:21
  Speaker 5: protective service officer and think security guard. It's absolutely not
• 9:26
  Speaker 5: the fact that they get the same training as the police.
• 9:28
  Speaker 5: They do the same job as police on the network
• 9:31
  Speaker 5: and they have the same powers, so they can arrest
• 9:35
  Speaker 5: you and they can do exactly the same as what
• 9:38
  Speaker 5: a police officer does in the same secum tense. The
• 9:40
  Speaker 5: only thing that changes is PSOs don't process the offenders
• 9:45
  Speaker 5: apart from penalty notices. So if somebody is committing an offense,
• 9:48
  Speaker 5: they are arrested by the PSOs, held and hand it
• 9:51
  Speaker 5: over to police to do the investigation. Because under the Act,
• 9:54
  Speaker 5: they're investigating official chance the other party a question about
• 9:59
  Speaker 5: what they see. Everything you know from not having tickets,
• 10:04
  Speaker 5: anti social behavior, drunkenness, graffiti, weapons, assaults, assaults against PSOs.
• 10:14
  Speaker 5: When the arrest occurs, it's often it's not a one
• 10:17
  Speaker 5: way arrest. You know that people are always fighting for
• 10:19
  Speaker 5: their liberty, you name it, they're being involved.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: And you mentioned weapons, which I think is a very
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: relevant thing for people now because we're hearing in Sydney
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: and Melbourne, probably other states as well, the capitals where
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: people are increasingly caringnized.
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: It's not a safe environment.
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: Even people may be carrying because they fear being attacked
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: by somebody else. So your guys have got to be
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: extremely careful as well, and you're attending to more of
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: these situations that you had a couple recently where some
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: pretty nasty looking weapons were confiscated.
• 10:50
  Speaker 5: I guess that's just part of the police training and
• 10:52
  Speaker 5: PERSO training that you always treat people as if they're
• 10:57
  Speaker 5: a threat. That's basically policing craft, I guess, and policing
• 11:01
  Speaker 5: and perso craft is the same sort of thing as
• 11:03
  Speaker 5: I said before. So whether or not there's more or less,
• 11:06
  Speaker 5: I couldn't say, but we certainly find them, and I'm
• 11:09
  Speaker 5: sure there's a cases where we don't, but we have
• 11:12
  Speaker 5: other operations that we run to find weapons, omni operations,
• 11:16
  Speaker 5: which is a specific legislation under the ConTroll of Weapons Act.
• 11:21
  Speaker 5: We have powers to search people for weapons if we
• 11:24
  Speaker 5: believe on reasonab grants that they're carrying. And we have
• 11:27
  Speaker 5: other operations occasionally like pad dogs, so a passive detection dog.
• 11:32
  Speaker 5: We ran an operation in Frankston just one or two
• 11:35
  Speaker 5: days ago. It was twelve thirty in the afternoon in Frankston,
• 11:39
  Speaker 5: went for a couple of hours, twelve arrests. Two people arrested,
• 11:44
  Speaker 5: were whereabouts, boughteing warrants, executed, four drug diversions, a caution notice,
• 11:51
  Speaker 5: three penalty notices, and a breach intervention order, and weapons
• 11:55
  Speaker 5: offenses and in fact the dog had to give up
• 11:59
  Speaker 5: because it was exhausted. They ll show you whatever the
• 12:02
  Speaker 5: dog was was exhausted because it is hard work for them.
• 12:05
  Speaker 5: So not only weapons, but alcohol and graffiti, implements, drugs,
• 12:10
  Speaker 5: all those sort of things that people carry on trains
• 12:11
  Speaker 5: that we have two operations in place to do that,
• 12:14
  Speaker 5: and it's a very short period of time that as
• 12:17
  Speaker 5: we mentioned Frankston busy place.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's right, and I think what we were
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: also seeing anecdotally is that train stations and trains are
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: becoming part of gang territory. You're seeing people dealing drugs
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: through the transit system. You're seeing fest taking place that
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: train stations. So it's not the quiet kind of retirement
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: job security guard type role that people think it is
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: for the PSOs.
• 12:41
  Speaker 5: But I should point out that the network's very safe.
• 12:45
  Speaker 5: We do get incidents, but for the amount of communis
• 12:48
  Speaker 5: every day and I couldn't even say how many there are,
• 12:49
  Speaker 5: but the amount of commuter transits that transit through the
• 12:53
  Speaker 5: system every day, no incidence. It's just the occasional incidents
• 12:58
  Speaker 5: there and luckily where they're to intervene.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: But you don't get a lot of love because, as
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: you say, most of these people get to their destination
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: of that incident. But it just takes one or two
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: things to happen. Was when the papers recently, someone was
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: hit by somebody and they went to push the button
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: and it didn't work, and that makes the age and
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: there's this sort of perception there must be a bit disheartening.
• 13:18
  Speaker 5: Yeah, look, it could be, but I think the other
• 13:20
  Speaker 5: part of it is you don't know what you don't know,
• 13:23
  Speaker 5: and the perception or just having the persos present and
• 13:26
  Speaker 5: that perception of safety for people, and what do you
• 13:29
  Speaker 5: deter by being on the platform. It's unmeasurable. So that's
• 13:34
  Speaker 5: what we're about. It's about being present, being there, being
• 13:38
  Speaker 5: on the trains. We are on the trains as much
• 13:40
  Speaker 5: as you're on platforms, and having that community confidence that
• 13:44
  Speaker 5: if I go to this station, there's PSOs there, and
• 13:46
  Speaker 5: often they escort people to the car park or they
• 13:49
  Speaker 5: just provide that safety. And I know anecdotally, even through family,
• 13:53
  Speaker 5: that I'll always go to that train station because I
• 13:56
  Speaker 5: know the PSOs there because once they escorted me to
• 13:59
  Speaker 5: my car.
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: That's a very good.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: Point you make, actually, because I think a lot of
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: people yearn for the old days when there was enough
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: resources and staff and things for people to walk beats.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: They would be seen in various areas, and that's not
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: possible anymore.
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: I get that.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: But if you are seeing a pso you're seeing someone
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: in uniform with all the accouterments, I'm going to feel
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: safe and that's a good thing.
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 14:19
  Speaker 5: And one of the really good things about the PSOs
• 14:21
  Speaker 5: is from a distance the police, they wear a uniform
• 14:25
  Speaker 5: the same as police, so instead of the silver they
• 14:28
  Speaker 5: wear gold, they have protected Services the Victoria Police written on.
• 14:32
  Speaker 5: They are police and I think that the public should
• 14:35
  Speaker 5: treat them as police and respect them as police, which
• 14:38
  Speaker 5: doesn't always happen. Police don't always get respected as well,
• 14:41
  Speaker 5: to be fair, but that society isn't it.
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, But I think, as I say, I think increasingly
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: that I mean, I think we saw fifteen percent increase
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: in crimes around train stations and on trains in the
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: last year. So it's a very important role in my opinion.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: It's come home to me this whole thing. And also
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: when you look at how they kid it out, they
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: are police. They've got a gun, they've got a taser,
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: they've got oc spray, they've got a bat and they
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: got a torch.
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: Different the police, Well they're not.
• 15:07
  Speaker 5: It's just that extra legislative things that police have, your
• 15:10
  Speaker 5: Road Safety Act, family violence, crime investigation.
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: That part of policing.
• 15:15
  Speaker 5: The PSOs don't do because they are We have PSOs
• 15:18
  Speaker 5: in Protective Services Unit who do the courts, the shrine,
• 15:21
  Speaker 5: Government House, so they now fall under transit but they have
• 15:24
  Speaker 5: a different role to the transit PSOs, so they all
• 15:28
  Speaker 5: do the same training as you know. I'm sure through
• 15:31
  Speaker 5: your contacts and experience. We do our operational safety technics
• 15:34
  Speaker 5: training twice a year police. It's policing PSOs mixed. There's
• 15:38
  Speaker 5: not a special course for PSOs. Know you will do
• 15:41
  Speaker 5: it with the PSOs. We do the same firearms training,
• 15:44
  Speaker 5: same CD training or taser, same restraint control, all that
• 15:49
  Speaker 5: sort of thing.
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: So they are police.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and we're also seeing I think, around the world
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: more and more incidents of terrorism and other things hitting
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: the public transit system.
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: It's where people are.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: So this is not a quiet, little back corner of
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: people who are beyond retirement age.
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: I do not that there isn't an age limit. I'm
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: becoming a bit.
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: Of or police officer.
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: Oh is that right?
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: No age limit.
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: I didn't realize that.
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: As long as you meet the entry requirements, we'll take you.
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: And how would you go now if you were joining
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: up short, I.
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: Think personally i'd go okay.
• 16:22
  Speaker 5: But look, the standards it's not the same as what
• 16:26
  Speaker 5: I joined in ninety three. At that time, the police
• 16:29
  Speaker 5: force hadn't really changed over an extended period. We had
• 16:33
  Speaker 5: fairly high physical standards to meet. They are a bit different,
• 16:36
  Speaker 5: but they're still there. Certainly, you've got to be healthy,
• 16:40
  Speaker 5: be able to meet the requirements. But it's not the same.
• 16:43
  Speaker 5: Society is not the same. We like to be across
• 16:45
  Speaker 5: a representation of society, so we have all different shaction
• 16:49
  Speaker 5: and size of police.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: Well, that's right, and I think a certain level of
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: physical fitness is really important. I remember doing Oh Boy
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: back in then after the Silk Miller murders, because they're
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: talking about lowering the war the obstacle course and the
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: police academy. That was a big thing for women. They
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: weren't getting over it, so they did lower it and
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: I went and.
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: Did the course myself. I was a bit younger. They're
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: twenty years younger. I think I still go.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: Okay, But that physical fitness is not negotiable, isn't It's
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: so true.
• 17:18
  Speaker 5: And the PSOs, to be fair, are on their feet
• 17:21
  Speaker 5: more than police. So they're on the platforms. They meet
• 17:24
  Speaker 5: every train or there's the expectations. Sometimes they can't because
• 17:28
  Speaker 5: they might be tied up doing something else, but they
• 17:30
  Speaker 5: meet the trains. They're walking up and down the railway
• 17:33
  Speaker 5: stations that are elevated, you know, they go up and down,
• 17:36
  Speaker 5: probably lift all the escalators, but they're up and down
• 17:40
  Speaker 5: on the concourse to the platforms out to the car park,
• 17:43
  Speaker 5: so they do a lot of kilometers per day.
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: I'm sure I've got to track them. Be interesting what
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: they do.
• 17:48
  Speaker 5: I'm sure someone wear smart watchers and know the steps,
• 17:52
  Speaker 5: so that in itself requires a physical fitness.
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think so absolutely.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: It's critically important and I'd want my PSOs to be
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: fit and ready for action. I mean a lot of
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: police officers to draw their firearm ever in their careers.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: It's a good day for everyone when that doesn't happen.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: But how often are you seeing the PSOs have to
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: draw a weapon?
• 18:16
  Speaker 5: A firearms rare, but there has been police shootings with
• 18:20
  Speaker 5: psosso involved Taser or CD Often they get drawn as
• 18:26
  Speaker 5: an escalation of force, but deployed not often, but it
• 18:32
  Speaker 5: does occur here. So all the operational safety equipment we've
• 18:35
  Speaker 5: got is used in an escalation of force. So depending
• 18:40
  Speaker 5: on force matches forced, doesn't it? Their best weapon is
• 18:44
  Speaker 5: their communication?
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: How do you teach them because I think that's one
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: criticism of modern police is that they don't talk to
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: people enough. They always make a point of talking to
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: police when I see them, just to sort of almost
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: as a journalist, I like to just sort of how
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: their communication.
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: Skills are some better than others.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: Are you finding the training is improving because some people don't,
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: it's not natural for them.
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: How do you get over that?
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: Look, that's a really difficult question.
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: It's a good question.
• 19:10
  Speaker 5: I think that comes with experience and also matching the
• 19:14
  Speaker 5: shifts with the right people. You learn from your peers.
• 19:17
  Speaker 5: Peer learning is one of the best ways to learn training.
• 19:20
  Speaker 5: They do thirteen weeks at the academy a PSO and
• 19:23
  Speaker 5: a police officer now does twenty five. So when you
• 19:26
  Speaker 5: think about those extra roles of police, it's a lot
• 19:28
  Speaker 5: of training for them to take in, and communication is
• 19:30
  Speaker 5: part of that. They do the practical exercises from day one.
• 19:35
  Speaker 5: They're engaging, they're speaking, they wear uniform to become that persona.
• 19:40
  Speaker 5: You probably find that PSOs probably engage with more people
• 19:44
  Speaker 5: than police on a daily basis because there's more commuters.
• 19:48
  Speaker 5: Police are going from job to job. They attend at
• 19:50
  Speaker 5: somebody's house for whatever the job is, or they do this.
• 19:53
  Speaker 5: They do that, they're not always unfortunately, they're not always
• 19:57
  Speaker 5: walking up and down the streets and engaging like the
• 19:59
  Speaker 5: PSOs can. However, it was funny you mentioned before about
• 20:04
  Speaker 5: we don't have the opportunity to have foot patrols, so
• 20:09
  Speaker 5: from time to time we have operations where we can
• 20:12
  Speaker 5: meet those objectives. And currently in Northwest Metro or the CBD,
• 20:16
  Speaker 5: we've got Operation Harmony, which if you're in there in
• 20:19
  Speaker 5: the next weeks you'll see an increased presence of police
• 20:23
  Speaker 5: and persos in the CBD to provide that community re assurance.
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: And why is that happening.
• 20:29
  Speaker 5: I think it's just a strategic way to prevent crime.
• 20:34
  Speaker 5: That's our role. A major role is protect life and property,
• 20:38
  Speaker 5: but it's prevention of crime. We don't know you mentioned earlier.
• 20:42
  Speaker 5: We had a bit of a conversation earlier about carpet
• 20:44
  Speaker 5: shufflers and people in the Ivory Tower and all that
• 20:46
  Speaker 5: sort of thing. Actually planning, people are actually thinking about
• 20:49
  Speaker 5: ways we can do things better and this is one
• 20:52
  Speaker 5: of those.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: One of my favorite police officers actually a Queensland office.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: He's now retired Chief Inspector Corey Allen, and he ran
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: the Brisbane Watchhouse at a.
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: Time where it was.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: Very hectic up there and they were issuing a lot
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: of move on notices and there were people getting locked
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: up and all this kind of stuff. You know, his
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: attitude was to deesalate everything and get people to talk
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: to people dealing with whether they be prostitutes or homeless people,
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: drug addicts.
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: Understand who you're policing.
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: I think you're probably going to see the same faces
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: coming into train stations week after week, both commuters and
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: people who might cause trouble. And I think as a
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: police officer, as a pso, learning to talk to people
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: as the hardest thing.
• 21:36
  Speaker 5: Yeah, And just like we've got good carpenters and bad carpenters,
• 21:39
  Speaker 5: we've got good police pisos and I won't say bad,
• 21:42
  Speaker 5: but not as good. You know, some people are better
• 21:44
  Speaker 5: the whole gamut than others, but generally they're all Obviously
• 21:48
  Speaker 5: they can all do the job. It's interesting when you
• 21:51
  Speaker 5: said that before about recognizing faces. So same people catch
• 21:56
  Speaker 5: the same network or the same train creatures a habit,
• 22:00
  Speaker 5: whether or not I can use this terminology. But crooks
• 22:02
  Speaker 5: catch trains as well, of course, and often more so
• 22:05
  Speaker 5: than Joe Public. So in one area, that of Transit
• 22:09
  Speaker 5: where I normally work in Transit North, there's a work
• 22:12
  Speaker 5: unit there that, since twenty twenty four, has arrested about
• 22:16
  Speaker 5: eight hundred and thirty people for whereabouts warrants and other
• 22:21
  Speaker 5: offending because they know the people and they know they
• 22:25
  Speaker 5: see you. We have it's no big secret, it's not
• 22:28
  Speaker 5: a state secret, but you know, we have daily circulars.
• 22:30
  Speaker 5: We have information intel holdings which show this person's got
• 22:34
  Speaker 5: a warrant or this person's got this, and PSOs see
• 22:37
  Speaker 5: that they are very intel informed, and he catches the train.
• 22:42
  Speaker 5: They have internal comms where they let people know this
• 22:47
  Speaker 5: person will be on that train or it will hang
• 22:49
  Speaker 5: around that station, and they scoop them up. And this
• 22:52
  Speaker 5: particular work unit really motivated and have eight hundred and
• 22:56
  Speaker 5: thirty around about I think it's probably not eight thirty
• 22:59
  Speaker 5: round figure, but in that Facila lot since twenty twenty four.
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: Fantastic.
• 23:03
  Speaker 5: Yeah, So they implement that strategy to really upskill the
• 23:07
  Speaker 5: PSOs because the other part to it. Sure, it's about
• 23:10
  Speaker 5: community safety, it's about public transport safety, but it's also
• 23:15
  Speaker 5: a very good breeding ground for police. So a PSO
• 23:18
  Speaker 5: can transfer to becoming a police officer.
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: How many do that?
• 23:22
  Speaker 5: Look, I couldn't give you the figures, but there's quite
• 23:24
  Speaker 5: a few. It's called CQP, which is a constable Qualifying program.
• 23:29
  Speaker 5: There's some parameters around it, and I think they've got
• 23:32
  Speaker 5: to be a PSO for maybe twelve months or two years.
• 23:35
  Speaker 5: I'm not really sure the exact figures on it or
• 23:38
  Speaker 5: the exact rules around it, but they basically go in,
• 23:41
  Speaker 5: they enter the academy into a squad at the level
• 23:45
  Speaker 5: which you're at, and then they do the rest of
• 23:48
  Speaker 5: the training and they become police officers. So it opens
• 23:53
  Speaker 5: up recruiting as well into PSOs. It's a great job
• 23:57
  Speaker 5: where currently don't have many vacancies because we have people
• 24:01
  Speaker 5: on the list to join, and as we know that
• 24:05
  Speaker 5: the employment market across the board is tough these days.
• 24:08
  Speaker 5: But we're looking for police, they're looking for recruits, but
• 24:12
  Speaker 5: in the PSO space, we've got quite a few on
• 24:15
  Speaker 5: the list.
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: Riadic hiring. Yeah, we're hurry, okay, h police as well.
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, you're looking at me. I'm not sure.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure my gang connections, I'd passed them past.
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: The test actually mentioned no age liment, so no acum.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but I think you could do better than me, frankly,
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: But I think also, I mean it's also about associations.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: I think i'd be fearing that the back of me
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: he's fan say, oh he used to talk to Carl
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: Williams and Benji Venuman then hang.
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: Out with Bike and they go, yeah, I'm not sure.
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: I'm not sure. We give him a gun, but.
• 24:43
  Speaker 5: Obviously have the screening processes. But it's quite rewarding to
• 24:47
  Speaker 5: see a pso get to that. It's not even the level,
• 24:50
  Speaker 5: it's that mindset that they now want to be police exactly.
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: And you mentioned about crooks catching trains. It just reminds me.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: One of the most interesting drug distribution system was Dennis Allen.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: He was in Cremorn in Richmond and he would get
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: people to catch the train and when he had a
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: buyer catch the train past his house and they would
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: lob the drugs out the window into his back garden
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: because he didn't want the drugs on the premises. So
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: if there were PSOs back in those days, they would
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: have caught them straight up. They would have seen the
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: same blokes getting the same train doing the same things.
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: It didn't stop us pulling his house down.
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: It didn't. You're old enough to remember that.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: And by the way, you've got a railway backgrounds, you're
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: pretty well sented for this job. Yeah.
• 25:27
  Speaker 5: I'm from a railway family. My dad did probably fifty years.
• 25:30
  Speaker 5: My brother is still in the rail industry. My sister
• 25:33
  Speaker 5: was a station assistant at some stage, and I was
• 25:36
  Speaker 5: a tradesman. I started my apprenticeship and did a few
• 25:39
  Speaker 5: years on the railways as well before I transitioned to police.
• 25:43
  Speaker 5: Just the excitement, I think at the time. I had
• 25:45
  Speaker 5: a few friends that had joined. I looked around and
• 25:48
  Speaker 5: saw other tradees. I was in the metal trades and
• 25:52
  Speaker 5: that was it. You become a tradesman. You're good at
• 25:55
  Speaker 5: your craft. I just wanted more and I've got it.
• 25:58
  Speaker 5: As we mentioned, thirty three years, I've had a really
• 26:01
  Speaker 5: good career. Where have you worked, General, Judy, start off
• 26:04
  Speaker 5: like we all do. Then I was a crime investigator
• 26:08
  Speaker 5: and a local sea eyes, you know, we call them
• 26:10
  Speaker 5: divisional sea eyes. I never went to crime squads, but
• 26:13
  Speaker 5: then uniform sergeant in Metro and also rural ran police
• 26:19
  Speaker 5: stations as a sergeant of ran police stations in country
• 26:24
  Speaker 5: as a senior sergeant, which is a really rewarding part
• 26:27
  Speaker 5: of the job. Being a senior sergeant in a country town,
• 26:30
  Speaker 5: you are a big influence on the community. So that
• 26:32
  Speaker 5: was really rewarding. And now I have moved into the
• 26:36
  Speaker 5: officer ranks. As an inspector and acting superintendent. So it's
• 26:41
  Speaker 5: really been good to be that's a very general, I guess,
• 26:45
  Speaker 5: snapshot of my career.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's always been until recently, forward facing, customer focused,
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: and I think that's what the PSO trade is all about,
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: and I think it's something that has I said before,
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: People welcome when they see a friendly face, like when
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: I got off the train. Actually after that incident, there's
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: a couple of PSOs there at Chelton.
• 27:05
  Speaker 5: I checked their running sheet and I saw that I'd
• 27:07
  Speaker 5: spoken to you. Ye oh really, so when we reached
• 27:10
  Speaker 5: out to you after you put a Facebook post on
• 27:12
  Speaker 5: to be fair, that's the history of this, to thank
• 27:14
  Speaker 5: you for highlighting the good work, which is really important.
• 27:17
  Speaker 5: Then I tried to track down the incident and it
• 27:19
  Speaker 5: took me a little while because there's a lot of
• 27:21
  Speaker 5: PSOs on a network, there's a lot of public contacts.
• 27:24
  Speaker 5: And I tracked back from Cheltenham and I saw that
• 27:28
  Speaker 5: they'd spoken to you journalist and that you had highlighted
• 27:31
  Speaker 5: the work, and that led us to be able to
• 27:33
  Speaker 5: track back and to the extent that I was able
• 27:35
  Speaker 5: to watch the footage and I was really proud of
• 27:38
  Speaker 5: the work they did.
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it was good. I was I'm really pleased with
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: the high come action, you know.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: I think it should give people confidence to believe in
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: this system and to call upon it, you know. And
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: it was nice. And I spoke to those two PSOs
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: at Shelton. I said, listen, I know there's a page
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: for complaints, but is there a page for praise?
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: You know, and you've reached out, you saved me the trouble.
• 27:56
  Speaker 6: Yeah, well there is. Actually it's the same page. It's compliments.
• 27:59
  Speaker 6: And that's what they said exactly. Yeah, they probably mostly
• 28:02
  Speaker 6: get complaints, but people should. I think it's also incoming
• 28:04
  Speaker 6: upon people. We take this stuff for granted.
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you know.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: And I'm doing a lot more public transport travel at
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: the moment because of petrol, so it's making me focus
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: on this. But people who are on the trains every day,
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: and they get this sense that if I can plain,
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: nothing's going to happen, or I'm going to be a problem,
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: or it's two minor. What's your message to people about
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: the kinds of complaints that they can reasonably put to
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: the PSOs all complaints.
• 28:32
  Speaker 5: For me, I don't like to hear people say it's
• 28:36
  Speaker 5: not the way I like it or not, but I
• 28:39
  Speaker 5: never contacted a police because they're busy. We have to
• 28:41
  Speaker 5: be busy. That's our job. Our jobs to provide a service,
• 28:44
  Speaker 5: same as the PSOs. What's what seems minor for someone
• 28:49
  Speaker 5: may not be minor for someone else, So report it
• 28:51
  Speaker 5: through the methods. Before that, I'll mentioned you know, triple
• 28:54
  Speaker 5: O or the button on the train. If we're working,
• 28:59
  Speaker 5: we'll be there to help. And if the PSOs aren't working,
• 29:01
  Speaker 5: it's important to know as well, police can attend as well,
• 29:04
  Speaker 5: so your duties. Police from the regions will attend railway
• 29:07
  Speaker 5: stations for those jobs as well.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: And I guess you also may find that if you
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: report somebody and there's camera footage of him, it might
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: be that he's got outstanding warrants, he's a serious crook.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: You can actually be part of the solution rather than
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: the problem as people might perceive.
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 29:23
  Speaker 5: Absolutely, and again we've all stood on railway platforms. There
• 29:28
  Speaker 5: are cameras and we can access those. I don't know
• 29:31
  Speaker 5: that it deters a lot of people, people who are
• 29:34
  Speaker 5: going to commit crime, forget that, but it's a really
• 29:37
  Speaker 5: good resource for us to be able to track incidents.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, now, I don't want this to be a recruiting advertisement,
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: but when I noticed the pain conditions, it's pretty good.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: You go to the academy, I they get seventy five
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: thousand to start, and then you see people getting over
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: one hundred thousand in the first.
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: Couple of years and they get like with it nine
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: weeks lead.
• 29:58
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's one of the It sounds a lot, and
• 30:01
  Speaker 5: it is a lot. But it's also like we don't
• 30:03
  Speaker 5: get the roster of days off like normal employee would get.
• 30:06
  Speaker 5: We have to work public holidays, we don't get extra
• 30:10
  Speaker 5: pay for public holidays, and we're shift workers, so we
• 30:13
  Speaker 5: get five weeks under an award anyway, but nine weeks.
• 30:16
  Speaker 5: A lot of people break it up into three lots
• 30:18
  Speaker 5: of three. It is a great entitlement for the police force.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I can't tell you the impact on that
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: train carriage after that guy was gone was just palpable.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: It was like we can get on it without our evening.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: And that's something that PSOs probably don't see, is the
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: piece that they bring in those situations. I want to
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: thank those guys again and thank you for filling us
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: in on what PSOs do. And I don't think I'll
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: be applying anytime soon. I did think about it for
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: a moment. I'm not sure I'll cut out for it,
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: but it was a lot to talk to you.
• 30:49
  Speaker 5: Shut yeah, thanks and look again, I thank you for
• 30:52
  Speaker 5: highlighting the good work and that's what sport to see today.
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: They do do a great job persos.
• 30:57
  Speaker 5: And if I could ask for one thing, and that
• 31:00
  Speaker 5: would be for the public to respect them for the
• 31:02
  Speaker 5: role they do.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: That was Sean Halley, acting Superintendent in the Transit Safety
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: Division of the Northwest metro Region. I think the message
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: here is don't do what I did. Hit the button,
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: lead the knucklehead wrangling to the professionals. If you want
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: to explore the opportunities to serve as a PS, I'm
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: going to put some links in the show notes. If
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: you want to report a crime, please call crime Stoppers
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: one one hundred, triple three, triple zero, or you can
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: write an email to me at Adam Shanner writer at
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: gmail dot com.
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: This has been Adam shann for Real Crime.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: If you've enjoyed today's episode as much as I have,
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: please subscribe, like, and share it for more independent crime journalism.
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: Thanks for listening.
• 31:50
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• 31:53
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