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Breaking the Glass Ceiling with a Baby on Board · Work It Like A Mum

• 0:00
  Verena Hefti: So, on the whole, the big challenge is that the workplace is not set up for people who have responsibilities outside of work.
• 0:07
  Verena Hefti: Our workplace is still based on a 1950s model of a main breadwinner going to work who has a wife at home who takes care of everything else.
• 0:16
  Verena Hefti: Obviously, the people listening are not in that situation, and what the Leaders Plus Fellowship does in the broadest sense is to get people in a place where they can get to those senior roles in a way that works for them.
• 0:33
  Elizabeth Willetts: Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willits and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life.
• 0:48
  Elizabeth Willetts: I'm a working mom with over 17 years of recruitment experience and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women job board and community.
• 0:54
  Elizabeth Willetts: In this show, I'm honored to be chatting with remarkable women redefining our working world across all areas of business.
• 1:02
  Elizabeth Willetts: They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success after children, set boundaries and balance, the challenges they faced and how they've overcome them to define their own versions of success.
• 1:15
  Elizabeth Willetts: Shy away from the real talk.
• 1:17
  Elizabeth Willetts: No way.
• 1:18
  Elizabeth Willetts: Money struggles, growth, loss, boundaries and balance.
• 1:21
  Elizabeth Willetts: We cover it all.
• 1:22
  Elizabeth Willetts: Think of this as coffee with your mates, mixed with an inspiring TED Talk sprinkled with the career advice you wish you'd really had at school.
• 1:30
  Elizabeth Willetts: So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine, make sure you're cozy and get ready to get inspired and chase your boldest dreams, or just survive Mondays.
• 1:40
  Elizabeth Willetts: This is the Work it Like A Mum podcast.
• 1:42
  Elizabeth Willetts: This is the Work it Like A Mum podcast.
• 1:47
  Elizabeth Willetts: This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women.
• 1:50
  Elizabeth Willetts: Investing in Women is a job board and recruitment agency helping you find your dream part-time or flexible job with the UK's most family-friendly and forward-thinking employers.
• 2:01
  Elizabeth Willetts: Their site can help you find a professional and rewarding job that works for you.
• 2:07
  Elizabeth Willetts: They're proud to partner with the UK's most family-friendly employers across a range of professional industries.
• 2:13
  Elizabeth Willetts: Ready to find your perfect job?
• 2:15
  Elizabeth Willetts: Search their website at investinginwomencouk to find your next part-time or flexible job opportunity.
• 2:24
  Elizabeth Willetts: Now back to the show.
• 2:26
  Elizabeth Willetts: Thank you so much, Rina, for joining me today.
• 2:29
  Elizabeth Willetts: It's such a pleasure to chat with you.
• 2:30
  Elizabeth Willetts: So, kicking off, did you always want to be an entrepreneur?
• 2:35
  Verena Hefti: Not really.
• 2:35
  Verena Hefti: No, I've always wanted a career in the charity sector, which I had.
• 2:40
  Verena Hefti: I was really enjoying my job as a director at teach first, and my parents have been entrepreneurs, so that was probably in me somewhere.
• 2:48
  Verena Hefti: But I haven't pictured setting up a social enterprise to drive change for working parents which is now active in five continents.
• 2:56
  Elizabeth Willetts: So, yeah, it was a bit of a by accident type situation so when you were a kid you didn't have like shops that you pretended to run, or you know, was that not a game you used to play?
• 3:07
  Verena Hefti: No, no, definitely not.
• 3:08
  Elizabeth Willetts: I can see there's been quite a thread in your career.
• 3:11
  Elizabeth Willetts: So we're going to come on to Leaders Plus, which is obviously the organisation you're founded and what you do.
• 3:15
  Elizabeth Willetts: But there seems to be quite a thread in your career where you've helped other people and you've been in development.
• 3:21
  Elizabeth Willetts: Was that something you wanted to do?
• 3:25
  Verena Hefti: and or you've been in development.
• 3:26
  Verena Hefti: Was that something you wanted to do?
• 3:27
  Verena Hefti: Very sadly, I don't think I've had a plan at all.
• 3:28
  Verena Hefti: So you're asking me what did I want?
• 3:29
  Verena Hefti: Yeah, so, yes, helping people thing definitely.
• 3:31
  Verena Hefti: But I can see, and it's really funny just 10 minutes ago, when we had a quick chat, you made me aware that I've always been working in developing people.
• 3:39
  Verena Hefti: But I've not noticed that until you and I just had a quick chat.
• 3:42
  Verena Hefti: Really, what did you?
• 3:42
  Verena Hefti: Did you go to university?
• 3:43
  Elizabeth Willetts: yes, I did not notice that until you and I just had a quick chat.
• 3:44
  Elizabeth Willetts: Really, what did you?
• 3:44
  Elizabeth Willetts: Did you go to university?
• 3:46
  Verena Hefti: Yes, I did social anthropology so I saw, which used to be all about understanding how different people live, what drives you know, what people's values are, and so on.
• 3:54
  Verena Hefti: Used to be about studying people on an island somewhere, you know, near Papua New Guinea, but now it's very much about understanding also how our world works, how organizations work.
• 4:06
  Verena Hefti: You know the weird political stuff that humans do, which actually is very it's just very human behavior.
• 4:12
  Verena Hefti: It's the same sort of rituals and rules that happen in big organizations that happen on an island in Papua New Guinea.
• 4:18
  Verena Hefti: It's just the structures are slightly different wow.
• 4:21
  Elizabeth Willetts: So you have always been interested in people and how they work, how they develop, how they all interact with each other.
• 4:28
  Elizabeth Willetts: Talk us through leaders, plus what you do and who you help and how your organization is set up to support yeah.
• 4:36
  Verena Hefti: So I set up leaders plus because I myself had my first child and I was absolutely shocked by how people seem to assume that now I had pushed out my ambition with my baby I really haven't.
• 4:47
  Verena Hefti: And I set up.
• 4:49
  Verena Hefti: I was feeling quite lonely because I thought I'm the only one here who feels this way, who still wants to be.
• 4:55
  Verena Hefti: I thought I could maybe at some point become a CEO, and now everyone seems to think that all I'm doing is looking after the baby, which is obviously.
• 5:03
  Verena Hefti: I love my children and I really am into babies these days.
• 5:08
  Verena Hefti: At the beginning I wasn't so much, but now I really love babies.
• 5:10
  Verena Hefti: Yeah, but it took me.
• 5:12
  Verena Hefti: Yeah, I just couldn't square those two identities and I got a really clear message from society that either you're this career woman or you are someone who is giving yourself to your children, and and that doesn't happen with us, anyway.
• 5:26
  Verena Hefti: So you asked me how I set up Leads Plus and then brought together a group of about 40 babies and 60 leaders and I convinced our local MP to allow us to go to the House of Commons.
• 5:38
  Verena Hefti: I found some really inspirational role models like Geraldine Strassi, cb, and Karen Blackadobe, and got them to share how they did it and just the reality of it.
• 5:49
  Verena Hefti: Just to.
• 5:49
  Verena Hefti: Mainly, the objective of that event was to give me some hope that it was possible to combine a big and then, as a result, I realized that there was a real need, and so I started consulting and asking parents in managerial roles what is it that is keeping you from progressing and what would really help you?
• 6:06
  Verena Hefti: And it was stuff like understanding how the old boys you know what, the information that you get from the old boys network that you don't really get otherwise, being able to overcome the fact that you can't go to networking event at nine o'clock because you're shattered and you're doing the 10th trying to get your child to bed again once they got out.
• 6:27
  Verena Hefti: And so, as a result, I defined a nine-month program with a senior leader mentor, with really not to develop leadership specifically, but to try to develop skills around career progression so you can play the system in a way that works for you without having to work all our consent.
• 6:44
  Verena Hefti: And there are some things you know.
• 6:46
  Verena Hefti: For example, if you're married or have a partner, how you interact with that person has a direct impact on pay, has an impact on how satisfied you are with your career progression.
• 6:55
  Verena Hefti: So we integrate, we even for those that have a partner.
• 6:58
  Verena Hefti: We even bring the partner along to some of the workshops if they.
• 7:01
  Verena Hefti: We don't force them if they're out for it, because it makes such a big difference.
• 7:04
  Verena Hefti: So it's quite an innovative thing.
• 7:06
  Verena Hefti: It's a really interesting group of people.
• 7:07
  Verena Hefti: I now don't feel so lonely anymore.
• 7:11
  Elizabeth Willetts: So you employed.
• 7:12
  Elizabeth Willetts: When you went on your first maternity leave, I was.
• 7:15
  Elizabeth Willetts: Yes, I was.
• 7:15
  Elizabeth Willetts: I decided not to go back there and set up your own organization yeah, I was really doubting.
• 7:22
  Verena Hefti: Obviously I'm not the risk taker at all, yeah, so I was doubting, but somehow I just had a really strong conviction that we needed this and that I could make it work to get people promoted who usually would be told no, no, no, you stay and look after the baby and stay where you are.
• 7:39
  Verena Hefti: Be grateful for your flexible working, but other than that, please don't ask to be any higher than you are.
• 7:44
  Verena Hefti: And I thought I grateful for your flexible working, but other than that, please don't ask to be any higher than you are.
• 7:50
  Verena Hefti: And I thought I could make a difference.
• 7:51
  Verena Hefti: And then, yeah, I think it has made a difference.
• 7:52
  Verena Hefti: We had about 60 of the parents, even just from our last cohort, have got promoted or because of more senior responsibility, like a board role.
• 7:56
  Verena Hefti: So it's clear.
• 7:58
  Verena Hefti: You know that is one by one changing?
• 8:01
  Elizabeth Willetts: absolutely it will, and then once you get more enough people at the top that's sort of advocating for change then it will filter down into the rest of the organization.
• 8:08
  Elizabeth Willetts: You've obviously made it sound quite easy, and someone else that's you know like you that set up a business with small children.
• 8:13
  Elizabeth Willetts: I know it's not so talk us through the early days.
• 8:16
  Elizabeth Willetts: What was it actually like the early days?
• 8:20
  Verena Hefti: even now it's not easy so it's exactly the same thing and I'm sure you have done as well where it is just super, super difficult to keep.
• 8:32
  Verena Hefti: So I think the biggest learning point I should say is to be able to stop working, because when you're setting up your own organization or you're in a senior role, the work is never finished.
• 8:42
  Verena Hefti: You could always do more and it could be better, and I think for me that was the biggest learning point.
• 8:46
  Verena Hefti: To shut down the computer and I have to credit my partner forcing me to do it initially and then me realizing that actually I'm not worse at my job at all yeah, I also resonated with me, because I'm one of these a bit of a workaholic, and then it's quite fast time.
• 9:01
  Elizabeth Willetts: My husband like right, we're gonna watch some tv now, because it is hard that you could.
• 9:05
  Elizabeth Willetts: Like you said, there is always something to do yeah, definitely you on your own.
• 9:09
  Elizabeth Willetts: Initially did you have a team.
• 9:10
  Elizabeth Willetts: No, I can't imagine.
• 9:12
  Elizabeth Willetts: No, I was on my own.
• 9:14
  Verena Hefti: I was doing things with baby on lap.
• 9:16
  Verena Hefti: Yeah, no, it was really, really difficult.
• 9:18
  Verena Hefti: I was probably for the first two years on my own, or even three years.
• 9:22
  Verena Hefti: I had some freelancers who were helping, but that was it, and I went with my second.
• 9:27
  Verena Hefti: I was a bit of my first.
• 9:28
  Verena Hefti: I set up the organization probably about started setting it up, maybe just about nine months old, and then the with the seconds.
• 9:36
  Verena Hefti: I only took three months maternity leave okay, yeah so that was.
• 9:40
  Verena Hefti: I mean, I wasn't working full-time, but I was really tough.
• 9:43
  Verena Hefti: And then with the third I was able to take longer maternity leave because I was able to hire a maternity cover by that time.
• 9:49
  Elizabeth Willetts: You know, it was definitely not easy, and even just the physicality of giving a very young child to someone else yeah, I was gonna say because I think you know I know people sort of say, oh, we don't ask dads this and you know society doesn't ask dad this.
• 10:03
  Elizabeth Willetts: But I think it's important to talk about how we actually make it work.
• 10:07
  Elizabeth Willetts: And you know, this is the juggle and it is the juggle for everybody.
• 10:10
  Elizabeth Willetts: So what were you doing, like in the early days to carve out that time to work on your business?
• 11:07
  Verena Hefti: I remember when I was on maternity leave and I had to work, I made my partner and that's a privileged position, but at the time my partner really liked to go for long walks.
• 11:16
  Verena Hefti: So on days when you only start work at 10, go for a walk with the baby for an hour or an hour and a half and actually schedule that time in, because otherwise you know you always have like you wait, you hope, you hope the baby sleeps and of course he never sleeps when you're hoping he will sleep and then the sleep and half an hour later they wake up is quite a stressful thing because you're constantly hoping that they will sleep so you can get your stuff done.
• 11:40
  Verena Hefti: But having just protected time when you know you can do something, whether that's take a shower or work on setting up a social enterprise that was really important.
• 11:51
  Elizabeth Willetts: I love that.
• 11:52
  Elizabeth Willetts: It's similar to me.
• 11:53
  Elizabeth Willetts: My business was set up initially during that time and I do remember there was a couple of times and I was so desperate to it.
• 11:58
  Elizabeth Willetts: You know, you get an idea, you go spark of an idea and I need to do it.
• 12:01
  Elizabeth Willetts: And then there was that I remember my youngest didn't nap that day and you know in your mind and I remember it getting to the end of the afternoon and she hadn't napped, I started crying because I just want to do this and it is that push pull constant.
• 12:16
  Elizabeth Willetts: I think a lot of, particularly mums, can struggle with, particularly if you're so passionate, like you said, about your job or your business or what other things did you find challenging when you first started your social enterprise?
• 12:28
  Elizabeth Willetts: You talked about the time.
• 12:30
  Verena Hefti: I think the self-belief is a really big one, because of course, if you you I'm sure any working parent can recognize that and that you always feel you could do more you can't.
• 12:38
  Verena Hefti: It's quite a satisfying thing actually to work later, long hours, isn't it?
• 12:42
  Verena Hefti: I find it satisfying, it's very calming.
• 12:45
  Verena Hefti: You know, if you work until 10 o'clock at night you know you've done everything.
• 12:49
  Verena Hefti: So you know you physically couldn't do more.
• 12:51
  Verena Hefti: But if you switch off in order to go and do something with your children, you have to make a decision about what is good enough, and I think that was not easy.
• 12:59
  Verena Hefti: It was quite tough to do that.
• 13:02
  Verena Hefti: And then, of course, I was trying to engage lots of employers, but most employers were saying this is a rubbish idea.
• 13:09
  Verena Hefti: And actually working parents a lot of people said working moms don't want to progress their career.
• 13:14
  Verena Hefti: They honestly said that to me so many times and luckily that's now six, seven years ago.
• 13:19
  Verena Hefti: But what helped really was that I just I gave me fight it a bit.
• 13:27
  Verena Hefti: So, for example, I would just have a target with myself how many to reach out to every day, and then I knew the ratios of how many on average would get back to me.
• 13:35
  Verena Hefti: So that was a helpful thing.
• 13:38
  Verena Hefti: And also there were employers who did.
• 13:39
  Verena Hefti: You know people really are brilliant thought leaders and support.
• 13:42
  Verena Hefti: For example, I remember Jane Beast in that call art was one of the first employers who said, yes, this sounds really good, let's have a chat.
• 13:50
  Verena Hefti: And I had a chat with babe in arms.
• 13:52
  Verena Hefti: Yeah, got her insights and advice and she's now, or call art, are still a partner today.
• 13:58
  Verena Hefti: So, yeah, there are definitely people out there who understand the problems that we need to solve, but it took a lot of resilience to keep going without that resilience came from?
• 14:11
  Elizabeth Willetts: because a lot of people will give up.
• 14:13
  Elizabeth Willetts: They would call 10 people, they would get 10 no's and they'd be thinking this is not working.
• 14:19
  Elizabeth Willetts: I'm going to throw in the towel.
• 14:20
  Elizabeth Willetts: What stopped you from throwing in the towel?
• 14:24
  Verena Hefti: I think a different thing.
• 14:26
  Verena Hefti: So probably stubbornness and pride for sure, yeah, which is not always a good thing.
• 14:31
  Verena Hefti: So those traces also drew me to pursue things that aren't always helpful, but you know, that incident was very helpful and I think actually so.
• 14:41
  Verena Hefti: I grew up in a Swiss village, very, very Swiss.
• 14:44
  Verena Hefti: I had two donkeys and so very much in the countryside, only thing seeing people.
• 14:51
  Verena Hefti: But I had two donkeys and they were not well-trained donkeys.
• 14:54
  Verena Hefti: Lots of drunkies are very, very, very well trained.
• 14:57
  Verena Hefti: However, mine were not, and I learned to be very, very patient and very persistent as a result.
• 15:03
  Verena Hefti: So maybe that's contributed to it absolutely.
• 15:05
  Elizabeth Willetts: Yeah, I love that, I love.
• 15:06
  Elizabeth Willetts: I wasn't expecting the conversation to go there, but you know, I think it just shows me all of life's experiences shape who we are and nothing actually is ever wasted.
• 15:16
  Elizabeth Willetts: Because I know you mentioned you were in sales before and you did a bit of a sales role and that's obviously then those skills you were able to bring.
• 15:22
  Elizabeth Willetts: Yeah, it's true actually, yeah, so funny, elizabeth.
• 15:26
  Verena Hefti: You always, like you, make me realize things I didn't.
• 15:28
  Verena Hefti: You know that I didn't even realize myself.
• 15:30
  Verena Hefti: Yeah, that is true.
• 15:30
  Verena Hefti: So I was a well, it probably wasn't a classic sales role, but looking back it from, it was about selling schools.
• 15:37
  Verena Hefti: The idea of taking teachers that haven't had a lot of training as in with teacher first program, so they did have training from the best universities.
• 15:45
  Verena Hefti: They were making a real difference.
• 15:47
  Verena Hefti: But a lot of schools were skeptical.
• 15:48
  Verena Hefti: Yeah, but in a way it was easier because I still had it, wasn't?
• 15:52
  Elizabeth Willetts: me, I wasn't representing my own yeah, it wasn't something.
• 15:55
  Elizabeth Willetts: It wasn't your baby, was it?
• 15:56
  Elizabeth Willetts: At that point it was.
• 15:57
  Verena Hefti: I was very passionate about it, and I still am.
• 15:59
  Verena Hefti: I think teacher's is a great organization, but there is something about doing it for your own, yeah, and I'm not a self-confident person at all.
• 16:07
  Verena Hefti: So the way that I dealt with that is to just treat it as a game or an experiment, so to say to myself right, I'm just going to try to approach so many people and see what the result is and and if not, I'm going to change something.
• 16:18
  Verena Hefti: So to not make it about me, even though I didn't have a big organizational brand, behind me.
• 16:24
  Elizabeth Willetts: Yeah, I like that.
• 16:25
  Elizabeth Willetts: I think so.
• 16:26
  Elizabeth Willetts: You were doing the sales, then you were doing what designing the programs and then the delivery, and were you doing all that by yourself?
• 16:33
  Verena Hefti: yes, I did all that by myself but I hired a fantastic freelance facilitator, carolyn Moonby, who is absolutely amazing and I worked with her before because she was a um.
• 16:44
  Verena Hefti: She facilitated I don't know, I think actually she coached me, but I knew that she did.
• 16:50
  Verena Hefti: She was a good facilitator and she had um in a background in the thinking environment, and I believe the thing that working parents have the least is time to think, and the method of thinking environment gets people to think in a very structured way.
• 17:04
  Verena Hefti: So even today we still use the thinking environment to get working parents, who are very busy, sometimes frazzled, to very quickly to think about the things that really matter, and it's quite transformative if you just think Absolutely, I mean obviously, at that point, were you?
• 17:21
  Elizabeth Willetts: I mean just thinking about my business?
• 17:22
  Elizabeth Willetts: It took a while to make money, you know, and you're funding, funding, funding.
• 17:26
  Elizabeth Willetts: How did you sort of square that when, I don't know if you felt this?
• 17:29
  Elizabeth Willetts: You've seen the money going out of your bank account, nothing coming in and it's quite a worrying thing, gosh.
• 17:34
  Verena Hefti: I've taken a real bet on this, yes, and also it wasn't helped by my partner also started his own organization, minds Ahead, which is also a social enterprise, probably about around about the same time, maybe a few months before or after, so it was not so straightforward.
• 17:51
  Verena Hefti: I'm afraid I do live after the Swiss stereotype and obviously as a Swiss stereotype is saving money, not talking about money, which I will talk about money now but it's not first of all not talking about money, but saving money a lot, even though you don't know what you're saving for.
• 18:06
  Verena Hefti: So at the time when I was a regional director at Teach First, I then just didn't put on well, I was able to save a bit.
• 18:15
  Verena Hefti: I was also on decrement of employment support allowance for a little while while I was setting up the organization.
• 18:24
  Verena Hefti: So yeah, but I think you know we did have to have money.
• 18:28
  Verena Hefti: It was actually quite funny.
• 18:29
  Verena Hefti: A lot of people assumed that was this mompreneur and my partner and people ask me to work for free all the time, assumed that my partner was going to bring in the money and which wasn't true.
• 18:40
  Verena Hefti: We pretty much earned roughly the same for most of our careers.
• 18:44
  Elizabeth Willetts: So yeah, I just think it's like I don't know if you ever felt that panic when you just see the money going out, particularly when you start and you're like, oh, it hasn't come in yet, is this idea going to work?
• 18:53
  Elizabeth Willetts: Is it going to, you know, feed my family?
• 18:56
  Elizabeth Willetts: And it's that nervousness, isn't it?
• 20:04
  Elizabeth Willetts: There's a point I think.
• 20:05
  Verena Hefti: Yeah, although I was also quite naive, I thought yeah, obviously it was a different economic situation, so I thought I could find another job relatively easily.
• 20:14
  Elizabeth Willetts: Yeah, but I think that naivety actually serves you, because I think I was very naive thinking, oh, I was quite selfish.
• 20:20
  Elizabeth Willetts: I set up my business and I couldn't get flexible working with an employer.
• 20:23
  Elizabeth Willetts: I thought, oh great, I can do this, I can do it all around the kids and I've never worked any, never worked as hard in my life.
• 20:29
  Elizabeth Willetts: But it's that naivety, I think actually, because actually really probably knew the truth, you would maybe think twice about going into.
• 20:36
  Elizabeth Willetts: You can talk about being a social enterprise.
• 20:41
  Elizabeth Willetts: What's the difference, do you think, between a social enterprise and, you know, a normal company?
• 20:45
  Elizabeth Willetts: Do you want to know the legal?
• 20:47
  Elizabeth Willetts: forms probably not yeah, just, and why?
• 20:49
  Elizabeth Willetts: Why it's important to you that it's called a social enterprise and not a business.
• 20:53
  Verena Hefti: I think that's interesting.
• 20:54
  Verena Hefti: I actually probably goes back to my values in that I really want to make it.
• 20:58
  Verena Hefti: Sorry, it's cheesy, but I want to make a difference in the world and to me, calling it a social enterprise is very clear that it has the social purpose form, first and foremost, which is to me about greater gender equality and senior leadership, by helping parents mainly mothers to progress their careers against the odds.
• 21:17
  Verena Hefti: And then, legally it's a slightly different, so it's a cic.
• 21:21
  Verena Hefti: Anyways, I'll stop.
• 21:23
  Verena Hefti: But yeah, so it's a slightly different thing and you know it's.
• 21:25
  Verena Hefti: You can't take profit in the same way as the other yeah, so you've mentioned that in the program.
• 21:31
  Elizabeth Willetts: There's a lot of people that you know have similar challenges and obviously your organization helps to them to overcome those challenges.
• 21:38
  Elizabeth Willetts: So how does your organization support those people?
• 21:40
  Elizabeth Willetts: But also how can someone's listening to this and you know how can they help themselves as well?
• 21:45
  Verena Hefti: so I think it'd be really good to maybe break that into a couple of different parts of that question so, on the whole, the big challenge is that the workplace is not set up for people who have responsibilities outside of work.
• 21:57
  Verena Hefti: Our workplace is still based on a 1950s model of a main breadwinner going to work who has a wife at home who takes care of everything else.
• 22:04
  Verena Hefti: Obviously, the people listening are not in that situation, and what the leaders, plus fellowship, does in the broadest sense is to get people in a place where they can get to those senior roles in a way that works for them.
• 22:19
  Verena Hefti: So, negotiating that workload so that you're less overwhelmed which I think is a massive thing.
• 22:25
  Verena Hefti: Negotiating that flexible working request so you're able to work in a way that works for you.
• 22:31
  Verena Hefti: Making sure that your brand is well known so that even when you are not there and you have to rush off a bit flustered because nursery rang again, the child has fever that you are able to still come across.
• 22:43
  Verena Hefti: You know people talk about you in a respect, in a way that is admiring.
• 22:48
  Verena Hefti: Make sure you have a sponsor, so someone who opens doors for you internally and externally.
• 22:52
  Verena Hefti: That's really important.
• 22:53
  Verena Hefti: So I mean I can talk about any of these things to give practical tips.
• 22:56
  Elizabeth Willetts: But I think so because I think a lot of people listening to this might think, oh, I'm struggling with x and feel it's only them that is struggling with x, and I'm kind of sure everybody listening, whatever you're struggling with, there is somebody else that is struggling with that.
• 23:12
  Elizabeth Willetts: I mean, what would be some of the typical struggles I guess that people talk about?
• 23:14
  Elizabeth Willetts: I mean, what would be some of the typical struggles I guess that people talk about?
• 23:16
  Elizabeth Willetts: I mean, obviously, the workplace is set up as it is, but if someone's talking to you, you know, in a one to one, they might say I'm really struggling with such.
• 23:23
  Elizabeth Willetts: What are some of the things that they might say?
• 23:27
  Verena Hefti: Well, one that is coming up very, very often is the topic around workload, and in order to progress your career, you have to do a lot of stuff that isn't to do with your day to day workload, so you need to make sure you're.
• 23:39
  Verena Hefti: If you're going to the office, you're hanging out at the walk to cooler, you're speaking to the boss's boss, so you need to have headspace and time for that one thing and two working parents sometimes feel they have to overcompensate for the fact that they do every now and then have a sick child at home and so and then a lot of working parents do work part-time not all do, but if they do, sometimes, um, you end up doing a five day a week job in three, three days.
• 24:05
  Verena Hefti: So we're actually running a workshop for the people who are applying um to our next program earlier.
• 24:11
  Verena Hefti: I don't know when this is going out, but some of the things that we're covering as a practical thing is equip yourself and your manager with outcome-based management to understand exactly what outcomes you are responsible for, and then which of those outcomes should be in your role and which ones shouldn't.
• 24:27
  Verena Hefti: And quite often, if your role was five days and now it's three days, people will have forgotten to take off some of the outcomes, and you really need to do that if you want to make it reasonable.
• 24:36
  Verena Hefti: If you are, by the way, if you are moving from five days to three days, I highly recommend that you don't forget that money is being saved with the organisation and make suggestions of what to do with that money, whether's hiring an assistant, getting freelance support or getting your faster laptop, whatever it is.
• 24:53
  Verena Hefti: Make sure that that money, if the two days are not filled elsewhere, make sure that that money is used in a way that helps you with your workload I like that.
• 25:03
  Elizabeth Willetts: That's a really good tip.
• 25:04
  Elizabeth Willetts: Yeah, I think it's.
• 25:05
  Elizabeth Willetts: I've not heard that.
• 25:07
  Elizabeth Willetts: I really like that.
• 25:08
  Elizabeth Willetts: That's a really I've not heard that.
• 25:09
  Elizabeth Willetts: I've heard you know a few of the bits, but not that.
• 25:11
  Elizabeth Willetts: That was a really good tip.
• 25:12
  Elizabeth Willetts: So you touched on a point and talked about brand.
• 25:15
  Elizabeth Willetts: Are you talking about personal brand, building up a personal brand within your organization?
• 25:20
  Verena Hefti: yes and so much.
• 25:21
  Verena Hefti: So what you want is what you want people to come to you to offer you opportunities to.
• 25:26
  Verena Hefti: If someone says this person has asked for a pay rise, you want someone behind closed doors to say of course, we must keep her.
• 25:32
  Verena Hefti: And you want a sponsor who actively backs you when you're going for this flexible working request.
• 25:40
  Verena Hefti: That has never been done in the organization, I should probably say.
• 25:43
  Verena Hefti: A sponsor is someone who opens door, who has your back who's there for you.
• 25:48
  Elizabeth Willetts: I like that, and you obviously mentioned as well about the visibility.
• 25:50
  Elizabeth Willetts: You know it's the time, isn't it?
• 25:51
  Elizabeth Willetts: The coffee water cooler and the coffee.
• 25:54
  Elizabeth Willetts: But actually, if you've built up a personal brand, you probably feel you looks like you're more visible, maybe in some circumstances, than you actually are.
• 26:01
  Elizabeth Willetts: You don't physically need to be as visible.
• 26:03
  Elizabeth Willetts: So, and it's really resonating with me because I've recently started doing career coaching I do a lot of corporate women and part of it we do LinkedIn training and it's how to build a personal brand and there's a lot of reluctance interesting if you are employed.
• 26:17
  Elizabeth Willetts: I think people that self-employed be like yeah, we have to, basically there's no other choice saying that I've just given my.
• 26:24
  Verena Hefti: It's so funny.
• 26:24
  Verena Hefti: I have a new startup, it's fantastic.
• 26:26
  Verena Hefti: And she was going to write a post a marketing post, about me getting an award and it was so funny.
• 26:33
  Verena Hefti: She said our esteemed colleague for in, or something like that, and I was like, take out the word esteemed it has to resonate with you.
• 26:40
  Elizabeth Willetts: But again, yeah, no, I don't like self-promotion but yeah, sorry I wasn't going to attract no but I do you know, and I get a lot of the um, oh, I'm really nervous what my colleague's going to think.
• 26:49
  Elizabeth Willetts: They going to think.
• 26:50
  Elizabeth Willetts: Who does she think she is?
• 26:51
  Elizabeth Willetts: How do we get over that?
• 26:53
  Verena Hefti: Well, I think you need to find.
• 26:55
  Verena Hefti: So.
• 26:55
  Verena Hefti: First of all and I hope you'd back me on this, elizabeth I think you just have to get over it by practicing.
• 27:01
  Verena Hefti: It is a muscle.
• 27:02
  Verena Hefti: If you have not used for 10 years, then of course, and if it's been trained out of you because already little girls are being told on the playground not to be a show of then of course, just understand you have got a muscle that is a bit weak.
• 27:13
  Verena Hefti: You have to practice self-promotion and it's going to feel really weird and sore to do it.
• 27:18
  Verena Hefti: The more you do it, the easier it will get.
• 27:20
  Verena Hefti: If you want to make it easy for you, you could.
• 27:22
  Verena Hefti: So, let's say, social media if you do something on linkedin, it's okay.
• 27:26
  Verena Hefti: If you say something like oh, I was so honored to be invited to speak at this event.
• 27:31
  Verena Hefti: Or if you speak, if you want to stick in the safe zone which I'm not saying you need to and I don't think you should but just to get confident, yeah, I think it's a good idea to.
• 27:43
  Verena Hefti: So let's say, someone is doing a project on renewable energy, and then you can say oh, I really, really, I managed this one million pound renewable energy project in another country.
• 27:52
  Verena Hefti: Let me know.
• 27:53
  Verena Hefti: I know you'll do a really good job, but I would be more than happy to support if there's any way possible.
• 27:57
  Verena Hefti: So I think what you need to do is to drop in the magnitude and significance of your work in the day-to-day conversation.
• 28:04
  Verena Hefti: So make sure people know it was a one million pound project, make sure people know it was in another country and just think about what are the big things that make your work significant and drop those into the conversation.
• 28:15
  Verena Hefti: Really, other good tip is that you make a posse with another person who is perhaps underrepresented in at your level or in senior leadership level and just agree, say look, we know, we've been told by elizabeth and fernan we need to self-promote.
• 28:30
  Verena Hefti: We hate it, but you know what?
• 28:31
  Verena Hefti: Let's just do it for each other and tell people how good we are at x, y and z.
• 28:34
  Verena Hefti: And then the last thing is just identify three things that you want to be known for and then be conscious about telling your friends to tell others about those three things.
• 28:44
  Verena Hefti: Make sure you share that in passing, but it takes a bit of practice and the fact that both you and I we are.
• 28:50
  Verena Hefti: You know we have whole day workshops on these sort of things.
• 28:52
  Verena Hefti: It's not easy.
• 28:53
  Verena Hefti: No, no, it's going to be okay.
• 28:55
  Verena Hefti: You just need to play a little bit with it how?
• 28:57
  Elizabeth Willetts: so?
• 28:57
  Elizabeth Willetts: We talked about social media, but is there any other tips you can do to increase your visibility without physically having to be visible?
• 29:03
  Elizabeth Willetts: I guess it's that, isn't it?
• 29:05
  Elizabeth Willetts: It's that visibility piece in the workplace, or even just you know, maybe strategically thinking about which projects you're going to put your hand up for and and then, on you know, making sure that you are known for the right reasons within your organization so just the very obvious is that you put your hand ups for the projects that are of most significant to your organization's bottom line.
• 29:27
  Verena Hefti: So, for example, at teach first, the bottom line was that we were able to place teachers into school because the organization would not be existing without doing that.
• 29:35
  Verena Hefti: So I put my hand up for that.
• 29:37
  Verena Hefti: I have to say, at the time I didn't realize that was important, but anyways I did.
• 29:39
  Verena Hefti: And then also, we know that tasks that get you close to your boss's boss are more promotable, have an impact on your career.
• 29:47
  Verena Hefti: So I suggest that you volunteer for projects that give you visibility.
• 29:52
  Verena Hefti: Video bosses, boss also propose that, if there are.
• 29:56
  Verena Hefti: So maybe your organization has a culture of networking going to the pub or yeah, or something like that.
• 30:02
  Verena Hefti: Then, and maybe you just can't and don't want to be part of that, and that's totally fine.
• 30:08
  Verena Hefti: But what you can do is to create your own networking opportunities so you can actually use work being a working parent and connect all the working parents in your organization for a lunchtime lunch and learn.
• 30:19
  Verena Hefti: You can invite elizabeth or me for that, maybe, or you can just have it yourself.
• 30:24
  Verena Hefti: Yes, there are plenty of opportunities that you can create yourself.
• 30:28
  Verena Hefti: I think it is difficult because in a way, we are victims of the structures and that it's not our fault that we are excluded from senior leadership, like there's only what?
• 30:36
  Verena Hefti: 10 out of 100, no 9 out of 100 women in 40 100 organizations are led by women today in the UK, which is ridiculous.
• 30:44
  Verena Hefti: But I think we need to also just try and experiment with things, because it is not going to change on its own, very, very sadly.
• 30:52
  Verena Hefti: I wish it would, but I think we also need to get over the victim view.
• 30:58
  Elizabeth Willetts: I loved it.
• 30:58
  Elizabeth Willetts: I'm really enjoying our chat.
• 31:00
  Elizabeth Willetts: You know, I feel like I'm getting so many light bulb moments talking to you.
• 31:03
  Elizabeth Willetts: I like what you're saying massively resonates and I think I think, yeah, that you know we're not victims.
• 31:09
  Elizabeth Willetts: I love that, and I've definitely said that, and it's about creating your own opportunities.
• 31:13
  Elizabeth Willetts: There is a lot, though, that women are asked to do that isn't always directly related to their work or the bottom line.
• 31:19
  Elizabeth Willetts: So they might be said, and I remember being to do a lot of CSR, which is nice, but it does seem to get a lot put to the women in the office.
• 31:27
  Elizabeth Willetts: Can you organize the christmas party?
• 31:29
  Elizabeth Willetts: Can you organize?
• 31:30
  Elizabeth Willetts: Can you go, pop to the shop and get, and even if you're not like in that position, can you just pop to the shop and get so-and-so leaving gift?
• 31:36
  Elizabeth Willetts: Can you organize, you know, the whip round or whatever?
• 31:39
  Elizabeth Willetts: Can you organize the bake sale?
• 31:40
  Elizabeth Willetts: There is a lot of that that tends to be put on women, and I think a lot of women feel worried about being unlikable by saying no.
• 31:48
  Elizabeth Willetts: So what would be your advice to them in that situation?
• 31:52
  Verena Hefti: well if you like reading or listening to audiobooks.
• 31:55
  Verena Hefti: I really love laurie weingart's book, the no club, but also I'm citing her book because she summarizes.
• 32:02
  Verena Hefti: She's a professor where I also interviewed her for the big career small children for costa vall ago.
• 32:07
  Verena Hefti: But she says that women are more likely to be asked for these things and they're also more say yes.
• 32:14
  Verena Hefti: So first of all, just have that knowledge in the back and know that you will be asked to do that.
• 32:21
  Verena Hefti: So you need to automatically already say no more and you need to practice that saying no.
• 32:25
  Verena Hefti: I think you could.
• 32:27
  Verena Hefti: If it is really happening this before, if you're the only woman and you're always doing that stuff, you could say let's take turns with these office housekeeping tasks.
• 32:35
  Verena Hefti: You could name it and say at the moment I'm doing a lot of it, I enjoy it, but I really want to make sure we have enough space for other work as well.
• 32:41
  Verena Hefti: So you could do that.
• 32:43
  Verena Hefti: Yeah, I think.
• 32:44
  Verena Hefti: Again, just practicing saying no.
• 32:46
  Verena Hefti: If you've for your whole career you've always been the office party organizer you need to get into the habit of saying, or maybe give yourself a little rule saying you're only allowed to say yes to every third ask for this sort of stuff yeah, I like that sort of the gamification then coming in isn't it and thinking I'm going to be strategic about which ones I say yes to, and obviously you know, if you enjoy it, then you know, maybe you're happy to say yes to some of it.
• 33:09
  Elizabeth Willetts: But yeah, I think there is a lot of this perception that, oh, she'll do that, she likes that, and actually do we like it and is it always serving us?
• 33:18
  Elizabeth Willetts: Or, um, what would?
• 33:19
  Elizabeth Willetts: What were you hoping?
• 33:20
  Elizabeth Willetts: What's your legacy gonna be?
• 33:23
  Verena Hefti: yeah, it's a great, great question.
• 33:24
  Verena Hefti: I really hope that.
• 33:26
  Verena Hefti: I mean, that's not a long-term legacy, but I'm hoping that in the next five years we have a thousand more women in executive director roles as a result of the work that my team and I have done, and I hope that.
• 33:38
  Verena Hefti: I really hope that I've made a small contribution that when I'm retired and my daughters are grown up, that it's completely normal for them to have a senior role if they choose to do that with young children, and that they're able to do that with normal working hours, they can have a life in a way, next to doing a career that matches, because I think at the moment we're excluding people from those senior roles, not just because of their practical caring responsibilities, but also because they choose to have other things in their lives.
• 34:09
  Verena Hefti: But work, and I think it makes us better leaders if we don't just work all hours.
• 34:14
  Verena Hefti: Call it sense, and actually there is a lot of.
• 34:16
  Verena Hefti: I love reading books.
• 34:17
  Verena Hefti: Matthew Said has written a number of books about the research that if you work in different spheres you're more likely to come up with creative ideas.
• 34:27
  Verena Hefti: For example, he cites that a lot of the Nobel Prize winners they're also musicians or they've studied in a completely different field before.
• 34:34
  Verena Hefti: It makes makes them better, and so I think that's an argument that we should have full lives and we should do other things, not just for our children, but also for ourselves yeah, absolutely.
• 34:44
  Elizabeth Willetts: So you've got an mba.
• 34:44
  Elizabeth Willetts: How did the mba come about and what's it mean to you?
• 34:48
  Verena Hefti: well, I was saying this to you, so by the way, everybody who's listening to this you should consider putting yourself forward for an award, and especially within the uk.
• 34:55
  Verena Hefti: It's quite an award-driven society.
• 34:57
  Verena Hefti: It's not so much the same in the west, in europe, and so I've always.
• 35:01
  Verena Hefti: I'm from switzerland, so I was never sure about applying for awards, but one of my mentors said you must, and so I've done that and I've won a few awards, like we are the city, which was the first award I won in the UK and a trailblazing award I think it was called by Nat Vest and so and but so anyway.
• 35:17
  Verena Hefti: So that's the first message you must apply to awards, but the MBE is generally.
• 35:22
  Verena Hefti: I have no idea how it's come about.
• 35:24
  Verena Hefti: I really there must be apparently a group of people need to put you forward for it.
• 35:28
  Verena Hefti: Someone has done it, and I feel very, very so.
• 35:32
  Verena Hefti: I've been trying to find out who it is.
• 35:33
  Verena Hefti: I feel very, very warm inside that someone made the effort to put me forward, so thank you again did you just get a letter that 100 times you no idea the first letter I got was during the pandemic, when there was less you know, the government sent fewer emails.
• 35:49
  Verena Hefti: And I got an email saying by the way, can we have some personal details?
• 35:52
  Verena Hefti: You've got an MBA.
• 35:52
  Verena Hefti: And I went for a walk with my partner and I mentioned to him and said, look, it's unbelievable how these scammers are sophisticated.
• 36:00
  Verena Hefti: I'm sure a lot of people fall for this.
• 36:02
  Verena Hefti: And he said, well, maybe you should check it out.
• 36:05
  Verena Hefti: And I thought, well, I'm sure it's not true, come on.
• 36:07
  Verena Hefti: And in the end I did ring the office for cabinet, the cabinet office for something or other, and it was genuine, and I did form and give my personal details.
• 36:19
  Elizabeth Willetts: You trusted it, and what was it like in the ceremony then, and what's it now mean to you that you've got this award?
• 36:29
  Verena Hefti: Yeah, so I was.
• 36:29
  Verena Hefti: Really.
• 36:29
  Verena Hefti: I had a very bad contractivitis at the ceremony which is taking pictures.
• 36:32
  Verena Hefti: I had a very bad contractivitis at the ceremony which was take any pictures.
• 36:34
  Verena Hefti: But the yeah, it was quite strange.
• 36:34
  Verena Hefti: To be honest, it really was strange because even then I didn't quite feel like I deserved it and it was very humbling to be next to all the other people but then, chatting to the other people who also turns out, they felt pretty much the same.
• 36:45
  Verena Hefti: Yeah, so that was interesting, but it was also just a lovely day out.
• 36:48
  Verena Hefti: At the time time we didn't have a babysitter and so sorry, this is probably not the inspiration story you wanted to hear, but my partner and I we did convince one of my friend's husbands to look after our child, who was also ill a lot of times, and we managed to.
• 37:01
  Verena Hefti: Yeah, we just had a lovely few hours.
• 37:03
  Verena Hefti: Yeah, so you know, they called everybody up and gave you the medal, and so called everybody up and gave you the medal and so, yeah, it was nice hour of hot london.
• 37:15
  Elizabeth Willetts: So it's a really, you know, it's a kind of a royal, really nice, and you obviously launched a podcast.
• 37:18
  Elizabeth Willetts: Was it in 2019, the podcast?
• 37:21
  Verena Hefti: yes, so it came about by.
• 37:22
  Verena Hefti: I had a meeting with joe betterton, yeah, she said, from the london leadership leadership academy, and she came up, we somehow talked I actually that was when my second baby was six weeks older, so I have no idea if I agreed to meet someone with such a young baby.
• 37:38
  Verena Hefti: I wouldn't recommend it.
• 37:39
  Verena Hefti: But anyways, I probably wasn't 100% together.
• 37:41
  Verena Hefti: So somehow we talked about what we could do and I randomly threw out I could do a podcast and they could sponsor three podcast episodes.
• 37:49
  Verena Hefti: And they said, said okay, we'll give you.
• 37:52
  Verena Hefti: And I was like, oh, maybe I can have 150 pounds to buy a microphone or something.
• 37:55
  Verena Hefti: Obviously it did quite well and anyway.
• 37:58
  Verena Hefti: So she was unbelievably supportive and so you know.
• 38:01
  Verena Hefti: So forward thinking, and it was aimed at the NHS.
• 38:04
  Elizabeth Willetts: First of all because obviously it's quite niche then.
• 38:07
  Verena Hefti: No, no, just for the first few three episodes, but I somehow kept going and I think we're now I can't remember 120, 150 episodes.
• 38:14
  Verena Hefti: So yeah, I'm still enjoying it.
• 38:16
  Verena Hefti: It's really nice.
• 38:17
  Verena Hefti: I get to interview my heroes and people like Laurie Weingart, who studied why Women Say no, and really senior leaders like managing director at Royal Mail you know how they who use video on children, and that's really fun and enjoyable, I'm sure.
• 38:35
  Verena Hefti: Yeah, I feel I always have to justify why I do it, because it takes quite a lot of time, but it does take a lot of time.
• 38:39
  Elizabeth Willetts: Do you know?
• 38:39
  Elizabeth Willetts: I think people you're going to again it's the naive, it's just the conversation, but actually it's so much more than just the conversation and it's all the marketing.
• 38:47
  Elizabeth Willetts: Yeah, did it take some time?
• 38:49
  Verena Hefti: absolutely, absolutely, yeah, so yeah, but I'm I think I'm addicted to it now so what's next for leaders?
• 38:56
  Verena Hefti: Plus then, and the podcast podcast isn't, it's called big careers, small children, and it's available wherever you get your podcasts, yeah what's next for you, leaders plus and the podcast.
• 39:10
  Verena Hefti: So for the podcast is I will keep interviewing people I'm interested in, so if you know who is very interesting, then I will always interview them.
• 39:17
  Verena Hefti: And the other thing that so with leaders.
• 39:21
  Verena Hefti: Plus, we are focusing on growing our fellowship program, both within the uk but internationally.
• 39:27
  Verena Hefti: We have people from Switzerland, us, mexico, france, germany and so on.
• 39:33
  Verena Hefti: But we want to continue to grow and to develop more employee partnerships, which are also launched, a some consultancy with employee partners, as well as one of workshops, and we are going to have a program aimed at more, I think, basically supporting executive directors to drive change within their organizations, or senior directors, because I think it's really important to do that.
• 39:55
  Elizabeth Willetts: And why should employers invest then?
• 39:56
  Elizabeth Willetts: Because I can see the benefits.
• 39:58
  Elizabeth Willetts: You know we all can see the benefits for individuals.
• 40:01
  Elizabeth Willetts: What are the benefits to employers of investing in a programme like yours?
• 40:05
  Verena Hefti: Well, in every organisation there are right now working parents who are thinking about leaving and who are looking around.
• 40:11
  Verena Hefti: Research shows that 44% of working parents at any point are looking to leave and just keep looking around.
• 40:21
  Verena Hefti: One in four have moved employers because of their caring responsibilities, and so the Leads Plus Fellowship helps to support people who want to develop their career, to do that in their organization, to keep those people.
• 40:33
  Verena Hefti: But we also know that the gender leadership gaps are the fact that when you walk into that board meeting or that executive director meeting it's mainly all white men, not in all organizations, but in many.
• 40:43
  Verena Hefti: It's largely because a lot of women get stuck at the time when they have children and they plateau in their career, and so investing in the Leaders Plus fellowship helps to make sure that working parents do progress their careers.
• 40:58
  Verena Hefti: We had 60% working parents last quarter either promoted or got a more senior board role, which is really good.
• 41:05
  Elizabeth Willetts: So where can people connect with you, find you and learn more about your organization, whether from an employee or an individual?
• 41:11
  Verena Hefti: the website is leadersplusorg.
• 41:14
  Verena Hefti: I always look forward to find me on LinkedIn.
• 41:16
  Verena Hefti: Farina Hefti.
• 41:17
  Verena Hefti: I always look forward to connecting with new people and the podcast is Big Career, small Children wherever you find your podcasts brilliant.
• 41:26
  Elizabeth Willetts: We'll put all the links in the show notes.
• 41:27
  Elizabeth Willetts: Thank you so much, farina, for joining me today.
• 41:30
  Verena Hefti: Thank, you very much.
• 41:34
  Elizabeth Willetts: Thank you for listening to another episode of the Work it Like A Mum podcast.
• 41:38
  Elizabeth Willetts: If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and subscribe, and don't forget to share the link with a friend.
• 41:45
  Elizabeth Willetts: If you're on LinkedIn, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willett and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode.
• 41:52
  Elizabeth Willetts: You can also follow my recruitment site Investing in Women on LinkedIn, facebook and Instagram.
• 41:57
  Elizabeth Willetts: Until next time, keep on chasing your biggest dreams.