Latest / Laugh Love Law / The Art of Reinvention: A Conversation with Jason Hake

Transcript

The Art of Reinvention: A Conversation with Jason Hake · Laugh Love Law

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to Laugh Love Law.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Heather Kaplin, and today I'm joined by someone I've had the pleasure of knowing professionally for many years.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: He's the managing partner of Winkler Kurtz LLP, a respected leader in the legal community, and someone who has built a career centered around excellence and compassion.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: Both inside and outside of the courtroom, he is spectacular.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: He's also a photographer, traveler, lover of adventure, and someone who truly believes in continuing to evolve.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Let's welcome Jason Hake to Laugh Love Law.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you very much.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like you know me better than I know myself.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you like that?
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, good.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: Jason, what's something about yourself that never makes it into your professional bio?
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: That's really interesting.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I am not someone who wanted to be a lawyer my entire life.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, okay.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: So I actually, when I first went to school, I was studying philosophy just for the sake of learning.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I ultimately decided to go to law school on a whim.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: And then in retrospect, it ended up being the right career decision for me.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: But I am not someone who wanted to go to law school or be a lawyer my entire life.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: So now that's interesting.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: I always wanted to be an attorney and I majored in philosophy in college.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: That's something I did not know about because they were both philosophy buddies.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: We could talk it up anytime over Socrates, Aristotle, you know, anytime.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: Perhaps we will sometime.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: But now we know our next topic of conversation.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: Very nice.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Jason, when you're not practicing law, where are we most likely to find you?
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: You're most likely to find me very early in the morning before sunrise on a long island beach with my camera set up.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: So that's one of my passions.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: I love getting up before the sunrise.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'll go out to Montauk Point, or I live next to Wildwood State Park, so I'll go there, or I'll go to Smith Point, and I'll just set up my camera and I'll just wait for the sunrise and I'll wait for the right conditions and I'll take photographs.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's really my place.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's where I really feel my most creative.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: Have you always taken pictures?
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: No, this is something that started during COVID, actually.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're talking a lot about COVID lately because I think that was the time when people had to really think about what they love doing because we were all so bored.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: And it was a very transformational time as well.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: It was a time of reflection where suddenly everything that you grew accustomed to or that you expected in life was suddenly turned on its head.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I remember I would just go out, and at that time there really wasn't too much going on inside, so you were almost forced to find things outside.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I started taking photos with my just with my phone, and um I started to really enjoy it.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I got a camera and I just started doing it that way, and I found that it's a really a peaceful place for me.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and being on the being on a beach at that time was safe, it was open, and it was a place where it you know it really wasn't regulated.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that that's a that's nice that you found a passion during that time.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: And one thing I learned about you, um, I had you do some some paperwork for me.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: I asked you some questions.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: This is the hold my breath moment.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, no, no.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: And we talked about some of the things that you were doing professionally, and you said that you currently serve as an extern supervisor to Toro Law Students.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's correct.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: I absolutely love that.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me how you got into that and why you do it.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: So when I first started to go to law school myself, I was looking really looking for a way to get into a law firm so that I could actually gain practical experience.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: And also to build my resume a little bit, because before that, um my father, I'm first generation college, so my father was an oil burner mechanic.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, my mother was a stay-at-home mom.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I went to school, I studied philosophy like you, I went to law school, and I was really looking for connections and a way really to get in so that I could build my career and have something there when I graduated.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I really benefited from a mentor that I had who is retired now, but his name is Richard Winkler, who of course founded the firm that I currently own.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: And for two years I shadowed him and did everything with him.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: I went to every court appearance with him.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: I attended and observed every deposition that he did.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: So when the opportunity arose for me to work with students, it just felt very natural.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't necessarily just a sense of of giving back, which there is an element of that as well.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: But it just felt very natural to me that that is the proper way to train law students.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I've been doing that for a few years.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: I typically have a different extern every semester.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I have a semester off, but it's very similar.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: They work with me for academic credit, and I take them to court, they observe depositions, I'll give them motions or appeals to work on, which really they're not responsible for at the end of the day, but just to give them a sense of some projects that they'd be working on one day.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Sort of like the experience that you gained.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: Correct.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: That that is very nice.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I was gonna ask you about that.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: You didn't know about that, did you?
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't, I didn't, and I and I love that.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: I I taught um in grad school and and college for many, many years.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Is that so?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: I did.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: And again, during COVID, I I taught at LIU in Brooklyn.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_03: Where did you teach?
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh at the Brooklyn campus in LIU.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_03: But what did you teach?
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I so I I taught law classes.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: I taught employment law and I taught uh business ethics and I loved it, but same thing during COVID, right, it became a little much, and then the classes were online, and then they did did away with some of the classes, but I absolutely loved the it wasn't just the giving back, because I do feel like being a professor, being a teacher is giving back, but it was also like it was it was natural to pass on the learning the way I learned.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like the best way to train people to do things are to show them.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right, absolutely.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so we were very hands-on.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: I used to teach my classes more like a law class than a college class, and you know, we would we would use the little Socratic method, and and you know, the the faces would would light up for for for those of you that don't know what the Socratic method is, you you look at your class roster and you ask a question, and instead of waiting for somebody to raise their hand, you just call on them.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it seems cruel.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: And the first time maybe it is, but then everybody's on their toes because they know that they may get called on.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I loved that.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: I love that whole experience.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: And really, it was rewarding because at the end of it, there were so many students that said to me, you know, professor, you really changed my my views, you changed my my experience with learning.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I absolutely love that you do that, and I I think there's something to be said.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's special.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I I use the Socratic method myself, even in my firm if I'm training a new paralegal or something like that.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like it's the best way to teach someone the law because I don't think you can learn the law in a traditional academic sense where you're just reading and studying and and understanding it.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: You really have to apply yourself to it, but you have to fail.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: You have to you have to get it wrong first before you get it right.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the entire idea behind the Socratic method is to show somebody through their own failures that they actually had everything that they needed to arrive at the correct answer to begin with.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: I you know, I never thought about using that within the law firm.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's very interesting.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then you you're you're really the paralegals, I guess, are really learning how to do it, not just learning about how to do it.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's less like it's less I need to do this because I have so many days and this is another task that needs to be done in the course of a case, and it becomes more, oh, I understand why this is an integral part of of this case that I've been, you know, doing so much support work on for all of these years.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you mentioned before that your mentor was very important to you.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: And what parts of his legacy did you want to preserve within Winkler Kurtz?
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: So the most important thing is the relationships that he's formed with the clients over the years.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I was fortunate to have a front row seat to that for two years before becoming a lawyer.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: And then after becoming a lawyer, probably for about another seven years until he retired.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: So you had an opportunity to work with him for quite a while.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: Quite a while, absolutely.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: And bear in mind, in in all humor, over the years, it became less working with him and more just working.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I I understand that.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then when you talk about the way he treated the clients, explain a little bit.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: So the first thing I think the most one of the most common complaints that you hear from clients about lawyers is that they don't know what's going on or that they haven't heard from their lawyer in a very long time.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I think the the most important thing, or at least the the first thing, is communication.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um returning calls and emails as soon as you possibly can.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: Preferably within the same day.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: I have my own rule.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: I respond to everybody within the same day.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: Even if my response is I need to look into this and I'll call you tomorrow by this time.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: I at least acknowledge the fact that they're trying to get information for me.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: You could also be proactive, which I try to do as well, um, in terms of communicating details or updates in anticipation of them or a client having to ask me for information, and um also just making them feel at home.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's there's this sense of community that I think a lot of industries and professions are starting to lose.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I know that this is a timeless complaint as time goes on, right?
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: Things we feel more isolated and alienated from one another.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: But this idea of a client coming into the office and really feeling like they're walking into a space where they're valued, where they're welcomed, where uh their concerns are being addressed and and things like that.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, you're describing respect.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: You're describing treating clients with respect.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's all people really want.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, sure, you have an accident and your world's flipped on it, you know, upside down and and you want to know what's going to be next year.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: But unfortunately, we might not even be able to tell them what will be next week.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: But give the client the respect to say, I see you, I hear you, I'm concerned, and I'm gonna be here for you.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the response, the responsiveness, the getting back to the client, just to say, Hey, I don't know yet, but but I'm here, I'm working on it, it goes a long way.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I have to say, you are that way also with your adversaries, because if ever I send you an email or I have a question for you, it's always Heather, I'll look into that or let me let me do a little research and I'll get back to you.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I have to say I practice the same way.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I to me that's just being respectful all around, and and that is really something that I admire.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, and I feel like it goes a long way.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: And you mentioned your the relationships with adversaries and and defense attorneys, you know.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, I do plaintiff's work.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you you do get the respect that you give out.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: And actually can help you advocate for your client if you're not making every little minute detail of your client's case uh something that's difficult for the opposing counsel to deal with.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: So you you find that if you put out that respect that things actually end up going better for your client as well.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: You also said something that struck me.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: You said that you focus on the outcome, not the process.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I said that is interesting.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Can you explain a little bit?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I I think no matter w whenever you're litigating a case or whenever you're trying to solve a legal issue, you have to see where you ultimately want it to end up.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: You have to see the goal first.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: And then from there, you can understand the process better because the process is just helping you to get there, right?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: So in any particular case, the very first thing that you have to do is analyze it, right?
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: What are the strengths of this case?
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: What are the weaknesses of this case, right?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: What is the legal standard?
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: What is the evidence that I actually have to accumulate in order to meet my burden in this case, right?
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to see where you want the case to go, but then you have to understand from that what is the process or what are the strategies or mechanisms that you have to use in order to put everything together in order for you to arrive at that destination.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it it also keeps uh reality in check, right?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes somebody has an accident and they say, and I know I experience this quite often, right?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: What I want is this, and it's very often, you know, something to do with a seven-figure settlement and something to do with, you know, their case settled tomorrow, and that's great.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: I want a lot of things too.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean that will be the reality.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so it sounds like you set reality in motion from the beginning.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, here's the big picture, we're gonna do what we can, we're gonna hold your hand, we're gonna get there, but you know, every case has its own path.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: And bear in mind that's where communication comes into the equation as well.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: So when I'm meeting with a client for the first time, I'm also explaining to them what the legal standard is.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: And the types of evidence that we're going to need in order to do that.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: So once they understand it, they become sort of a partner of yours.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: And and it it just helps you at the end of the day because um their expectations are more in line with reality.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_02: Well, which legal commercials do not help them with, right?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: What accomplishment are you most proud of?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: Oof, so this is a this is a very this is a very loaded and and difficult question, but I would say I I'm very proud of the fact that I am involved with the externship program right now because I've and and I'm very fortunate to have been able to mentor so many law students who are now becoming lawyers in our community.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: That's not something that I ever really expected to do.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: I see the value in it, but I had no idea that I was actually going to be involved in that.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: So at least from a career perspective, I'm I'm very proud of that.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: And you mentioned something to me.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: You you really you did really well on that questionnaire.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: And it's interesting because I forgot everything that I wrote.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's good.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's a surprise.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: You talked about intentional reinvention.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: What is this?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so so in other words, uh for me, I'm always focused on growth and bettering myself not only as a person but also as a professional.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: This is very similar to seeing the end goal and seeing the process that you have to take in order to get somewhere.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: So intentional reinvention for me is identifying the parts of your own personality or the parts of your own practice, right?
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: And saying, These are the ways that I can be better at this communication, right?
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: Or research, or or maybe taking on a different type of case that maybe I would have felt a little uncomfortable with a decade ago or something like that.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: And then intentionally putting in place the steps that you have to put in place in order to, you know, achieve those goals.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: Our last guest was talking about that if you become too comfortable in one spot, it's time to move forward.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it sounds like that's sort of the same thing here that you have to reinvent the parameters, the limitations to what you can do and figure out a pathway to get there.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: There is no true neutral in life.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's true.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: If if neutral is standing in place, like you're not going anywhere.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: Right, but it ultimately is a reversion.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: It is, right.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: If you're not moving forward, you're not going anywhere, and then you're ultimately moving backwards.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to challenge yourself, and challenging yourself always involves you doing something that initially makes you feel uncomfortable.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like when you took a trip to Mount Athos?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: So this is interesting.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I take a lot of interesting trips.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: So the last two years I've I've traveled to Mount Athos in Greece, which is a location that not too many people are familiar with.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm friends with a few Orthodox Christians and an Orthodox priest as well, and they invited me to come along with them.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: It was essentially um a pilgrimage of sorts.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's a male monastic community with Byzantine era uh monasteries, and there was a lot of hiking and staying with the monks and things like that.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: But you'll find me doing something like that before you find me laying on a beach somewhere in like Hancun or something like that.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that it's very interesting.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Did you have your camera in hand?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: I did, although I didn't use it as much as I would have liked to.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think once I got there I was just overtaken with the sense of awe of the place where I think my eyes became the camera for a few days.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: So you were doing the thing that most people forget to do?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: You were actually living in the moment rather than recording the moment to use later on social media?
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: I was doing my best.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: I was doing my best.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: Even though I I hate to admit that I'm much more of a phone addict than I'd like to be, but I'm doing better.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, I have three daughters and we've been to our share of chorus concerts and band concerts, and one of the things that always strikes me is we're in the audience and we're watching the show, and 75% of the audience is watching the show through their phone.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: What are you doing?
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're there to watch your kid, but you're watching your phone that's watching your kid.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, what I try to do if my daughter's like, you know, please record, I watch and I'll hold the phone out here because I refuse to watch a performance through my phone.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: I I just I want to live in the moment.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I have to ask myself about that too, because I find myself uh recording all types of activities that I'm doing, whether it's video or taking pictures, but you really have to ask yourself the question, why am I doing this?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: What is it for?
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: And at the end of the day, it always comes back to me wanting to show somebody else what exactly I was doing, right?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: And then once you realize that that's the reason that you're doing it, right?
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: And this, by the way, this is like part of reinventing or changing yourself, right?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: You start to question your motivations and you can say, This doesn't make any sense that I'm actually doing this.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: For what purpose am I doing this?
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, what's going on?
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: I had a good time regardless.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: So speaking of things without a purpose, can you grab those three paddles?
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I can.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because we're gonna play a ridiculous game called Laugh Love Law.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna give you some topics.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: Great.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: And you're gonna respond by holding up one of the paddles.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Laugh if it makes you chuckle, if you have a funny story, love if you love it, if it has a place in your heart, and law if it's like, you know, you hate it, move on.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: Just like the actual law.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, pretty much, right?
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: So if you want to tell us a little story, we're here to listen.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: If you just want to hold up a paddle, that's cool too.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm gonna leave it to you.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: All right, I love it.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: Are you ready?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'm ready for this.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: Are you prepared for this, Jason?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: I've been waiting all day for this, to be honest with you.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, theme parks.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, are you like a roller coaster guy or like one of those spinny guys?
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I am 100% love on the theme parks.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, me too.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: And the reason why is because growing up, all of my family vacations with my brothers and my parents always involved us going to a different theme park.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: So for me, theme park is not just the excitement of the roller coaster, there's a lot of nostalgia that's really baked into the idea of theme parks for me.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: So we've done them all, and uh so love, big love.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, big love for the theme parks.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: I like it, Road Rage.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_02: Oof.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's a law for me.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that doesn't mean that I don't succumb to it.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: But what it does mean is that when I do succumb to it, I hate the fact that I do.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, listen, at the end of the day, there's a lot of frightened people on the roads.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: And particularly out here on Long Island on Long Island, there's people who are very good at handling traffic and moving quickly.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of people who have been involved in accidents or who have lost family members uh to accidents, um, drunk drivers, right?
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: All of those things.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a lot of people who just drive timid.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't save you a lot of time by being cruel to them.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: That is very true.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I would just say do your best to just be kinder to people because you have no idea like what their experience is.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I handle a lot of car accident cases from road rage, I'm sure.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: I've never been in a bad accident myself, but just handling those cases, I'm I'm yeah, a little more timid about driving sometimes.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Alright.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh perfectionism.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: Oof.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: Alright, I'm gonna give this a law, but I'll explain why.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm giving it a law because uh it's something that I struggle with myself, but I don't like the fact that I do.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: So um I tend to be a perfectionist with my work.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes that can lead to uh a paralysis by analysis, and I'm sure that you you know this as well, where sometimes you have a particular legal issue that you have, and you just have to put it in the corner of your desk, and every day you look at it and you hope that the answer is gonna come to you the next morning, right?
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas in reality, there was a very easy path out of it from the beginning, right?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: That you just needed someone else to show you, or you just say, Why didn't I think of that?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: So law, because it's good, it's not bad to be a perfectionist if you're a lawyer, but um you you don't want it to uh prevent the flow of work or to keep you stuck on something for too long.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: I have learned to appreciate the beauty in imperfection, especially in the last few years.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um my husband got into koi fish a couple of years ago, and every time he wants to add fish to the pond, I look for the fish that have a broken gill or the fish that are a little discolored.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: And he laughs and he says, Why do you always want the broken fish?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Because I think they're beautiful.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right, absolutely.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I've learned that the beauty in not being perfect is kind of beautiful.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: But when it comes to work, I'm a stickler for perfect work too.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's hard not to be that way.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but it's also good to just try your best to kind of give yourself some perspective when it comes to that.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh winning something.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: Winning something, okay.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's a big love for me.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm sure you feel the same way.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: There's nothing like the feeling of a Friday afternoon after you've had a big win on something that week.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: And if that big win comes that Friday morning, meaning You've just settled the case or you just got a decision.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: That is one of the best feelings in the world.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not just because you feel like I succeeded, but the fact that you were actually able in a tangible way to help another person with something.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um and we don't I I I I don't like to believe that I do it because I'm chasing that feeling.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: But that feeling that you get reminds you of why you're doing this to begin with.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: There's something in my personality that not only wants to help these people, but is really, you know, I'm geeking out on this win right now.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: The windows are down.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, winning's a little addictive.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: I'm right there with you.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: Big love on that.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna put those paddles down.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't laugh at anything.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: You don't laugh at anything.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: You'll laugh at me.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: I will.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: So you're gonna grab three quarters out of the jar.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: This one here.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: Not that jar.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's the that's the special jar.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, there's a special jar.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: After you sign a token from me later, we're gonna put it in there.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, not the pretty fancy coins, they don't fit.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: We gotta use the regular quarters.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: All right, this is gonna take this is gonna take me longer than it should, so I apologize to everybody.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's okay.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: All right, got 'em.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, you ready?
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: So you're gonna put it in three times, right?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna get three capsules to come out.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: All right, this is a good thing.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Your choice with the capsules.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: You can either answer the questions, you you might have to jiggle it before you put it in.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: There you go.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: So you can either answer the question, you can ask me the question, or you can leave it for the next guest.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: All right, Jason, you pulled three capsules.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: I did.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we had a little technical difficulty, so we did that off camera.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: But you ready?
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Open the first one.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: All right, great.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: So the first one we have, okay?
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: The question reads as follows.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: What is the weirdest compliment you ever received?
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to give that to you, Heather.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's funny because today in episode one, I got that same question.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I will say, yeah, I did, but I'll tell the story again.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, great.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's when somebody will say to me, like, you look just like my aunt or my neighbor, and I'm like, I don't know what your aunt or your neighbor looks like, but okay.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: If it's a compliment, I'll take it.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: If they're ugly, then you know, not so much.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: Alright, moving on to the purple.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, what do we got?
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: If you could master one creative skill overnight, what would it be?
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: That is a really good question.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: I would have to say that I I'm actually in a recording studio right now.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: And for years I played in a heavy metal band with my friends growing up.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you did.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: I did, I did.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: And we actually we actually recorded a lot together and we played a lot of shows on Long Island, and I've always wanted to write more music.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: So if there was one skill that I could learn overnight, it would have how to be a good um studio engineer.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so that I could actually record it myself because I feel like the process of having to go somewhere with material w is much more difficult than if I were to have a space like this on my own and I knew how to use it.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's something I would love to be able to do.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: So that's pretty cool.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: Hopefully, come tomorrow that dream comes true.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, why not?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: Why not?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: And what do we got?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: One more.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: One more.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: Alrighty.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: For the win, for the win.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: For the win.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: What's something you've accidentally become known for?
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good one.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: Ooh, that is a really good question.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um this one I'd like to.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: What's my last option?
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: I could save this for the next guest?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: You can.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: You can ask me, you can save it for the next guest, or you can answer it.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna I'm gonna give this one to you as well, Heather.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, this is the one.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: Just because I'm not sure how how appropriate my response would be.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's fine.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's fine.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, mine is actually pretty simple.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: I am a Diet Coke addict, and there's no better Diet Coke than McDonald's Diet Coke.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: Oh.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: I don't eat the food, I just drink the Diet Soda.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: And every morning when I pull through, I don't even have to place the order.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like what's the difference with the McDonald's Diet Code?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's the carbonation.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's incredible, but I'm known from my order.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm known for my order at at McDonald's.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's awful, but the Diet Coke is so good.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: Well, there's definitely worse things to be known for.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a lot of fun.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but yeah, this was fun.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: That was great.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I appreciate this.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: So now I need you to open up the jar again.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: The same one.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: And sign one of the pretty tokens.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, as a commemorative.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's wonderful.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why this uh sparkly pen is in front of me here.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: No, the sparkly pen's mine, the sharpie's.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, gotcha.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then you'll put it into the jar and we'll save them from all of our guests, which is just awesome.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I also have this cool hoodie for you.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we gotta spread the merch, right?
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a little laugh-love law for you.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: Appreciate that.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: You're very welcome.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: So holding this up for everybody, this is a beautiful uh hoodie here.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: This is great.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: You can wear it on the beach, right?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I will today.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: I like it.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to thank you so much for being here.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: Jason is a remarkable human being, a wonderful attorney, and an all-around great guy.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm so glad that we got to sit down today and chat.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, thank you very much.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: This is a great time, and likewise remarkable attorney.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, and thank you so much for tuning in.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: We'll be back soon.