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010 - Lincoln's Reply Part 2 · Noted Speeches of Abraham Lincoln

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Speaker 1: Section ten of Noted Speeches of Abraham Lincoln, edited by
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Speaker 1: Lillian Murray Briggs. This is a LibriVox recording. All LibriVox
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Speaker 1: recordings are in the public domain. For more information or
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Speaker 1: to volunteer, please visit LibriVox dot org. Noted Speeches of
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Speaker 1: Abraham Lincoln, edited by Lillian Murray Briggs. Lincoln Douglas Debate,
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Speaker 1: first joint debate, delivered at Ottawa, Illinois, August twenty first,
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Speaker 1: eighteen fifty eight. Lincoln's reply, Part two. Now, my friends,
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Speaker 1: I wish you to attend for a little while to
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Speaker 1: one or two other things. In that Springfield speech. My
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Speaker 1: main object was to show, so far as my humble
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Speaker 1: ability was capable of showing, to the people of this country,
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Speaker 1: what I believed was the truth that there was a tendency,
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Speaker 1: if not a conspiracy, among those who have engineered this
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Speaker 1: slavery question for the last four or five years, to
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Speaker 1: make slavery perpetual and universal in this nation. Having made
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Speaker 1: that speech principally for that object, after arranging the evidences
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Speaker 1: that I thought tended to prove my proposition, I concluded
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Speaker 1: with this bit of comment, we cannot absolutely know that
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Speaker 1: these exact adaptations are the results of preconcert. But when
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Speaker 1: we see a lot of frame timbers, different portions of
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Speaker 1: which we know have been gotten out at different times
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Speaker 1: and places and by different workmen Stephen, Senator Douglas, Franklin,
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Speaker 1: President Pierce Roger, Chief Justice Tanny, and James, President Buchanan,
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Speaker 1: for instance. And when we see these timbers join together,
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Speaker 1: and see they exactly make the frame of a house
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Speaker 1: or a mill, all the tenons and mortises exactly fitting,
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Speaker 1: and all the lengths and proportions of the different pieces
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Speaker 1: exactly adapted to their respective places, and not a piece
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Speaker 1: too many or too few, not omitting even the scaffolding,
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Speaker 1: or if a single piece be lacking, we see the
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Speaker 1: place in the frame exactly fitted and prepared to yet
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Speaker 1: bring such peace in In such a case, we feel
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Speaker 1: it impossible not to believe that Stephen and Franklin, and
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Speaker 1: Roger and James all understood one another from the beginning,
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Speaker 1: and all worked upon a common plan or draft drawn
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Speaker 1: before the first blow was struck. When my friend Judge
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Speaker 1: Douglas came to Chicago on the ninth of July, this
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Speaker 1: speech having been delivered on the sixteenth of June, he
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Speaker 1: made an harangue there in which he took hold of
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Speaker 1: this speech of mine, showing that he had carefully read it,
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Speaker 1: And while he paid no attention to this matter at all,
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Speaker 1: but complimented me as being a kind, amiable and intelligent gentleman.
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Speaker 1: Notwithstanding I had said this, he goes on and deduces
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Speaker 1: or draws out from my speech this tendency of mine
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Speaker 1: to set the states at war with one another, to
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Speaker 1: make all the institutions uniform, and set the Niggers and
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Speaker 1: white people to marry together. Then, as the Judge had
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Speaker 1: complimented me with these pleasant titles, I must confess to
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Speaker 1: my weakness. I was a little taken, for it came
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Speaker 1: from a great man. I was not very much accustomed
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Speaker 1: to flattery, and it came the sweeter to me. I
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Speaker 1: was rather like the hoosier with the gingerbread when he
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Speaker 1: said he reckoned, he loved it better than any other man,
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Speaker 1: and got less of it. As the Judge had so
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Speaker 1: flattered me, I could not make up my mind that
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Speaker 1: he meant to deal unfairly with me. So I went
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Speaker 1: to work to show him that he misunderstood the whole
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Speaker 1: scope of my speech, and that I really never intended
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Speaker 1: to set the people at war with one another. As
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Speaker 1: an illustration. The next time I met him, which was
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Speaker 1: at Springfield, I used this expression that I claimed no
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Speaker 1: right under the Constitution, nor had I any inclination to
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Speaker 1: enter into the slave states and interfere with the institutions
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Speaker 1: of slavery. He says upon that Lincoln will not enter
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Speaker 1: into the slave States, but will go to the banks
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Speaker 1: of the Ohio on this side and shoot over. He
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Speaker 1: runs on, step by step in the horse chestnut style
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Speaker 1: of argument, until in the Springfield speech he says, unless
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Speaker 1: he shall be successful in firing his batteries until he
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Speaker 1: shall have extinguished slavery in all the states, the Union
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Speaker 1: shall be dissolved. Now, I don't think that was exactly
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Speaker 1: the way to treat a kind, amiable, intelligent gentleman. I
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Speaker 1: know if I had asked the judge to show when
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Speaker 1: or where it was, I had said that if I
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Speaker 1: didn't succeed in firing into the slave states until slavery
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Speaker 1: should be extinguished, the Union should be dissolved. He could
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Speaker 1: not have shown it. I understand what he would do.
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Speaker 1: He would say, I don't mean to quote from you,
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Speaker 1: but this was the result of what you say. But
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Speaker 1: I have the right to ask, and I do ask, now,
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Speaker 1: did you not put it in such a form that
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Speaker 1: an ordinary reader or listener would take it as an
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Speaker 1: expression from me? In a speech at Springfield on the
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Speaker 1: night of the seventeenth, I thought I might as well
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Speaker 1: attend to my own business a little, and I recalled
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Speaker 1: his attention as well as I could to this charge
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Speaker 1: of conspiracy to nationalize slavery. I called his attention to
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Speaker 1: the fact that he had acknowledged in my hearing twice
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Speaker 1: that he had carefully read the speech and in the
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Speaker 1: language of the lawyers. As he had twice read the speech,
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Speaker 1: and still had put in no plea or answer. I
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Speaker 1: took a default on him. I insisted that I had
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Speaker 1: a right then to renew that charge of conspiracy. Ten
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Speaker 1: days afterwards, I met the judge at Clinton, that is
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Speaker 1: to say, I was on the ground but not in
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Speaker 1: the discussion, and heard him make a speech. Then he
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Speaker 1: comes in with his plea to this charge, and for
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Speaker 1: the first time, and his plea, when put in as
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Speaker 1: well as I can recollect, it amounted to this that
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Speaker 1: he never had any talk with Judge Taeney or the
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Speaker 1: President of the United States with regard to the dread
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Speaker 1: scott decision before it was made. I Lincoln ought to
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Speaker 1: know that the man who makes a charge without knowing
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Speaker 1: it to be true falsifies as much as he who
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Speaker 1: knowingly tells a falsehood. And lastly, that he would pronounce
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Speaker 1: the whole thing of falsehood, but he would make no
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Speaker 1: personal application of the charge of falsehood, not because of
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Speaker 1: any regard for the amiable, intelligent gentleman, but because of
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Speaker 1: his own personal self respect. I have understood since then.
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Speaker 1: But turning to Judge Douglas will not hold the judge
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Speaker 1: to it if he is not willing that he has
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Speaker 1: broken through the self respect and has got to saying
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Speaker 1: the thing out. The Judge nods to me that it
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Speaker 1: is so. It is fortunate for me that I can
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Speaker 1: keep as good humored as I do when the judge
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Speaker 1: acknowledges that he has been trying to make a question
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Speaker 1: of veracity with me. I know the judge is a
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Speaker 1: great man, while I am only a small man. But
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Speaker 1: I feel that I have got him. I demur to
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Speaker 1: that plea. I waive all objections that it was not
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Speaker 1: filed until after default was taken, and demur to it
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Speaker 1: upon the merits. What if Judge Douglas never did talk
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Speaker 1: with Chief Justice Tainey and the President before the dread
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Speaker 1: Scott decision was made. Does it follow that he could
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Speaker 1: not have had as perfect an understanding without talking as
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Speaker 1: with it. I am not disposed to stand upon my
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Speaker 1: legal advantage. I am disposed to take his denial as
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Speaker 1: being like an answer in chancery that he neither had
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Speaker 1: any knowledge, information, nor belief in the existence of such
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Speaker 1: a conspiracy. I am disposed to take his answer as
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Speaker 1: being as broad as though he had put it in
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Speaker 1: these words. And now I ask, even if he had
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Speaker 1: done so, have not I a right to prove it
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Speaker 1: on him, and to offer the evidence of more than
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Speaker 1: two witnesses by whom to prove it. And if the
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Speaker 1: evidence proves the existence of the conspiracy, does his broad
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Speaker 1: answer denying all knowledge, information, or belief disturb the fact?
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Speaker 1: It can only show that he was used by conspirators
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Speaker 1: and is not a leader of them. Now, in regard
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Speaker 1: to his reminding me of the moral rule that persons
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Speaker 1: who tell what they do not know to be true
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Speaker 1: falsify as much as those who knowingly tell falsehoods, I
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Speaker 1: remember the rule, and it must be borne in mind
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Speaker 1: that in what I have read to you, I do
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Speaker 1: not say that I know such a conspiracy to exist.
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Speaker 1: To that, I reply, I believe it. If the judge
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Speaker 1: says that I do not believe it, then he says
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Speaker 1: what he does not know, and falls within his own
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Speaker 1: rule that he who asserts a thing which he does
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Speaker 1: not know to be true falsifies as much as he
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Speaker 1: who knowingly tells a falsehood. I want to call your
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Speaker 1: attention to a little discussion on that branch of the
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Speaker 1: case and the evidence which brought my mind to the
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Speaker 1: conclusion which I expressed as my belief. If in arrang
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Speaker 1: that evidence I had stated anything which was false or erroneous,
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Speaker 1: it needed but that Judge Douglas should point it out,
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Speaker 1: and I would have taken it back with all the
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Speaker 1: kindness in the world. I do not deal in that way.
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Speaker 1: If I have brought forward anything not a fact, if
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Speaker 1: he will point it out, it will not even ruffle
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Speaker 1: me to take it back. But if he will not
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Speaker 1: point out anything erroneous in the evidence, is it not
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Speaker 1: rather for him to show, by a comparison of the evidence,
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Speaker 1: that I have reasoned falsely than to call the kind amiable,
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Speaker 1: intelligent gentleman a liar. If I have reasoned to a
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Speaker 1: false conclusion, it is the vocation of an able debater
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Speaker 1: to show by argument that I have wandered to an
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Speaker 1: erroneous conclusion. I want to ask your attention to a
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Speaker 1: portion of the Nebraska Bill which Judge Douglas has quoted.
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Speaker 1: It being the true intent and meaning of this act
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Speaker 1: not to legislate slavery into any territory or state, nor
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Speaker 1: to exclude it therefrom but to leave the people thereof
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Speaker 1: perfectly free to form and regulate their domestic institutions in
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Speaker 1: their own way, subject only to the Constitution of the
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Speaker 1: United States. Thereupon, Judge Douglas and others began to argue
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Speaker 1: in favor of popular sovereignty, the right of the people
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Speaker 1: to have slaves if they wanted them, and to exclude
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Speaker 1: slavery if they did not want them. But said in
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Speaker 1: substance a senator from Ohio, mister Chase, I believe we
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Speaker 1: more than suspect that you do not mean to allow
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Speaker 1: the people to exclude slavery if they wish to. And
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Speaker 1: if you do mean it, accept an amendment which I
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Speaker 1: propose expressly authorizing the people to exclude slavery. I believe
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Speaker 1: I have the amendment here before me, which was offered
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Speaker 1: and under which the people of the territory, through their
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Speaker 1: proper representatives, might, if they saw fit, prohibit the existence
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Speaker 1: of slavery therein. And now I stated as a fact
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Speaker 1: to be taken back if there is any mistake about it,
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Speaker 1: that Judge Douglas and those acting with him voted that
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Speaker 1: amendment down. I now think that those men who voted
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Speaker 1: it down had a real reason for doing so. They
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Speaker 1: know what that reason was. It looks to us, since
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Speaker 1: we have seen the dread Scott decision pronounced holding that
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Speaker 1: under the Constitution the people cannot exclude slavery. I say
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Speaker 1: it looks to outsiders, poor simple, amiable, intelligent gentlemen, as
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Speaker 1: though the niche was left as a place to put
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Speaker 1: that dread Scott decision, in a niche which would have
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Speaker 1: been spoiled by adopting the amendment. And now I say again,
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Speaker 1: if this was not the reason, it will avail the
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Speaker 1: judge much more to calmly and good humoredly point out
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Speaker 1: to these people what that other reason was for voting
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Speaker 1: the amendment down than swelling himself up to vociferate that
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Speaker 1: he may be provoked to call somebody a liar. Again,
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Speaker 1: there is in that same quotation from the Nebraska Bill
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Speaker 1: this clause it being the true intent and meaning of
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Speaker 1: this bill not to legislate slavery into any territory or state.
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Speaker 1: I have always been puzzled to know what business the
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Speaker 1: word state had in that connection. Judge Douglas knows he
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Speaker 1: put it there. He knows what he put it there,
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Speaker 1: for we outsiders cannot say what he put it there.
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Speaker 1: For the law they were passing was not about states,
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Speaker 1: and was not making provision for states. What was it placed? Therefore,
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Speaker 1: after seeing the dread Scott decision which holds that the
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Speaker 1: people cannot exclude slavery from a territory, if another dread
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Speaker 1: Scott decision shall come holding that they cannot exclude it
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Speaker 1: from a state, we shall discover that when the word
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Speaker 1: was originally put there, it was in view of something
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Speaker 1: which was to come in due time. We shall see
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Speaker 1: that it was the other half of something. I now
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Speaker 1: say again, if there is any different reason for putting
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Speaker 1: it there, Judge Douglas, in a good humored way, without
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Speaker 1: calling anybody a liar, can tell what the reason was. Now,
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Speaker 1: my friends, I have but one branch of the subject
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Speaker 1: in the little time I have left to which to
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Speaker 1: call your attention, And as I shall come to a
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Speaker 1: close at the end of that branch, it is probable
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Speaker 1: that I shall not occupy quite all the time A
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Speaker 1: lotted to me. Although on these questions I would like
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Speaker 1: to talk twice as long as I have, I could
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Speaker 1: not enter upon another head and discuss it properly without
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Speaker 1: running over my time. I ask the attention of the
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Speaker 1: people here assembled and elsewhere to the course that Judge
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Speaker 1: Douglas is pursuing every day, as bearing upon this question
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Speaker 1: of making slavery national, not going back to the records,
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Speaker 1: but taking the speeches he makes, the speeches he made
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Speaker 1: yesterday and the day before, and makes constantly all over
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Speaker 1: the country. I ask your attention to them. In the
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Speaker 1: first place, what is necessary to make the institution national?
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Speaker 1: Not war? There is no danger that the people of
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Speaker 1: Kentucky will shoulder their muskets and, with a young nigger
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Speaker 1: stuck on every bayonet, march into Illinois and force them
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Speaker 1: upon us. There is no danger of our going over
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Speaker 1: there and making war upon them. Then what is necessary
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Speaker 1: for the nationalization of slavery? It is simply the next
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Speaker 1: dread Scott decision. It is merely for the Supreme Court
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Speaker 1: to decide that no state under the Constitution can exclude it,
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Speaker 1: just as they have already decided that under the Constitution
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Speaker 1: neither Congress nor the territorial legislature can do it. When
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Speaker 1: that is decided and acquiesced in the whole thing is done.
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Speaker 1: This being true, and this being the way as I
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Speaker 1: think that slavery is to be made national, let us
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Speaker 1: consider what Judge Douglas is doing every day to that end.
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Speaker 1: In the first place, let us see what influence he
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Speaker 1: is exerting on public sentiment. In this and like communities,
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Speaker 1: public sentiment is everything. With public sentiment, nothing can fail
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Speaker 1: without it, nothing can succeed. Consequently, he who molds public
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Speaker 1: sentiment goes deeper than he who enacts statutes or pronounces decisions.
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Speaker 1: He makes statutes and decisions possible or impossible to be executed.
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Speaker 1: This must be borne in mind, as also the additional
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Speaker 1: fact that Judge Douglas is a man of vast influence,
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Speaker 1: so great that it is enough for many men to
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Speaker 1: profess to believe anything. When they once find out that
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Speaker 1: Judge Douglas professes to believe it. Consider also the attitude
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Speaker 1: he occupies at the head of a large party, a
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Speaker 1: party which he claims has a majority of all the
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Speaker 1: voters in the country. This man sticks to a decision
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Speaker 1: which forbids the people of a territory to exclude slavery.
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Speaker 1: And he does so not because he says it is
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Speaker 1: right in itself. He does not give any opinion on that,
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Speaker 1: but because it has been decided by the court, and
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Speaker 1: being decided by the court, he is and you are
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Speaker 1: bound to take it in your political action as law.
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Speaker 1: Not that he judges at all of its merits, but
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Speaker 1: because the decision of the court is to him a
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Speaker 1: thus saith the Lord, he places it on that ground alone.
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Speaker 1: And you will bear in mind that thus committing himself
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Speaker 1: unreservedly to this decision, commits him to the next one,
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Speaker 1: just as firmly as to this. He did not commit
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Speaker 1: himself on account of the merit or demerit of the decision.
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Speaker 1: But it is a thus Saith the Lord. The next
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Speaker 1: decision as much as this will be a Thus Saith
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Speaker 1: the Lord. There is nothing that can divert or turn
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Speaker 1: him away from this decision. It is nothing that I
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Speaker 1: point out to him that his great prototype, General Jackson
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Speaker 1: did not believe in the binding force of decisions. It
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Speaker 1: is nothing to him that Jefferson did not so believe.
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Speaker 1: I have said that I have often heard him approve
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Speaker 1: of Jackson's course in disregarding the decision of the Supreme
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Speaker 1: Court pronouncing a national bank constitutional. He says I did
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Speaker 1: not hear him say so. He denies the accuracy of
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Speaker 1: my recollection. I say he ought to know better than I.
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Speaker 1: But I will make no question about this thing, though
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Speaker 1: it still seems to me that I heard him say
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Speaker 1: it twenty times. I will tell him, though, that he
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Speaker 1: now claims to stand on the Cincinnati platform which affirms
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Speaker 1: that Congress cannot charter a national bank, in the teeth
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Speaker 1: of that old standing decision that Congress can charter a bank.
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Speaker 1: And I remind him of another piece of history on
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Speaker 1: the question of respect for judicial decisions. And it is
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Speaker 1: a piece of Illinois history belonging to a time when
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Speaker 1: a large party to which Judge Douglas belonged, were displeased
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Speaker 1: with the decision of the Supreme Court of Illinois because
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Speaker 1: they had decided that a governor could not remove a
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Speaker 1: secretary of State. You will find the whole story and
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Speaker 1: Ford's history of Illinois. And I know that Judge Douglas
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Speaker 1: will not deny that he was then in favor of
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Speaker 1: oversloughing that decision by the mode of adding five new
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Speaker 1: judges so as to vote down the four old ones.
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Speaker 1: Not only so, but it ended in the judges sitting
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Speaker 1: down on the very bench as one of the five
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Speaker 1: new judges to break down the four old ones. It
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Speaker 1: was in this way precisely that he got his title
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Speaker 1: of judge. Now, when the judge tells me that men
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Speaker 1: appointed conditionally to sit as members of a court will
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Speaker 1: have to be catechised beforehand upon some subject, I say,
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Speaker 1: you know, Judge, you have tried it. When he says
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Speaker 1: a court of this kind will lose the confidence of
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Speaker 1: all men will be prostituted and disgraced by such a proceeding,
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Speaker 1: I say, you know, best, Judge, you will have been
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Speaker 1: through the mill. But I cannot shake Judge Douglas's teeth
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Speaker 1: loose from the dread Scott decision like some obstinate animal.
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Speaker 1: I mean no disrespect that will hang on when he
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Speaker 1: has once got his teeth fixed. You may cut off
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Speaker 1: a leg, or you may tear away an arm. Still
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Speaker 1: he will not relax his hold. And so I may
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Speaker 1: point out to the judge and say that he is
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Speaker 1: bespattered all over from the beginning of his political life
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Speaker 1: to the present time with attacks upon judicial decisions. I
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Speaker 1: may cut off limb after limb of his public record
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Speaker 1: and strive to wrench from him a single dictum of
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Speaker 1: the court. Yet I cannot divert him from it. He
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Speaker 1: hangs to the last to the dread Scott decision. These
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Speaker 1: things show there is a purpose strong as death and eternity,
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Speaker 1: for which he adheres to this decision, and for which
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Speaker 1: he will adhere to all other decisions of the same court.
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Speaker 1: A voice, give us something besides dread Scott. Yes, no doubt,
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Speaker 1: you want to hear something that don't hurt. Now, having
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Speaker 1: spoken of the dread Scott decision, one more word, and
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Speaker 1: I am done. Henry Clay my beau ideal of a statesman,
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Speaker 1: the man for whom I fought all my humble life.
22:37
Speaker 1: Henry Clay once said of a class of men who
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Speaker 1: would repress all tendencies to liberty and ultimate emancipation, that
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Speaker 1: they must, if they would do this, go back to
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Speaker 1: the era of our independence and muzzle the cannon which
22:54
Speaker 1: thunders its annual joyous return. They must blow out the
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Speaker 1: moral lights around us. They must penetrate the human soul
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Speaker 1: and eradicate there the love of liberty. And then, and
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Speaker 1: not till then, could they perpetuate slavery in this country.
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Speaker 1: To my thinking, Judge Douglas is, by his example and
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Speaker 1: vast influence, doing that very thing in this community. When
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Speaker 1: he says that the Negro has nothing in the Declaration
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Speaker 1: of Independence, Henry Clay plainly understood the contrary. Judge Douglas
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Speaker 1: is going back to the era of our revolution, and
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Speaker 1: to the extent of his ability, muzzling the canon which
23:36
Speaker 1: thunders its annual joyous return. When he invites any people
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Speaker 1: willing to have slavery to establish it, he is blowing
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Speaker 1: out the moral lights around us. When he says he
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Speaker 1: cares not whether slavery is voted down or voted up,
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Speaker 1: that it is a sacred right of self government, he is,
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Speaker 1: in my judgment, penetrating the human soul and eradicating the
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Speaker 1: light of reason and the love of liberty in this
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Speaker 1: American people. And now I will only say that when
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Speaker 1: by all these means and appliances, Judge Douglas shall succeed
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Speaker 1: in bringing public sentiment to an exact accordance with his
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Speaker 1: own views. When these vast assemblages shall echo back all
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Speaker 1: these sentiments, when they shall come to repeat his views,
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Speaker 1: and to avow his principles, and to say all that
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Speaker 1: he says on these mighty questions, then it needs only
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Speaker 1: the formality of the second dread Scott Decision, which he
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Speaker 1: endorses in advance, to make slavery alike lawful in all
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Speaker 1: the states, old as well as new, North as well
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Speaker 1: as South. End of section ten, end of Noted Speeches
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Speaker 1: of Abraham Lincoln, edited by Lillian Marie Briggs,