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Beating Yourself Up Is Killing Your Leadership · Speak In Flow

• 0:02
  Melinda Lee: Welcome, dear leaders, to the Speak and Flow podcast, where we dive into unique strategies and stories to help you and your team achieve maximum potential and flow.
• 0:14
  Melinda Lee: Today, I have a truly amazing leader in the leadership development world. He's in the industry, and he's out speaking, he's an author, he's a founder of Massimo Backus Leadership. Hi, Massimo!
• 0:30
  Massimo Backus: Belinda, it's so nice to meet you.
• 0:32
  Melinda Lee: I am so glad, I'm excited to dive into your unique story today. Before we get in there, can you share with us, what are you excited about?
• 0:42
  Massimo Backus: So, I have been on a mission for the last few years to spread awareness around the power of self-compassion to as many people as I can. I think that it's a movement, and it is fundamentally to help people understand that having a better relationship to ourselves, positively impacts our relationships with other people, all in positive ways.
• 1:02
  Massimo Backus: And, so every chance I get to talk about that and share, my perspective and my expertise on it, it's, it's a good day. And so I'm excited to be here to be able to do that with you.
• 1:14
  Melinda Lee: I… got that sense right away from you. Like, I got the chills when you just said that.
• 1:21
  Massimo Backus: Thanks.
• 1:22
  Melinda Lee: And…
• 1:22
  Massimo Backus: A little bit.
• 1:24
  Melinda Lee: That's… I mean, to have the self-compassion, can you dive a little bit more? Where… because we have self-compassion for ourselves, how does that help others?
• 1:34
  Massimo Backus: Well, the way that we treat ourselves impacts the way that we treat other people, and I think we'd all like to believe that that's not the case, but the research would show that it's fundamentally true.
• 1:46
  Melinda Lee: Yeah. And…
• 1:47
  Massimo Backus: So then the question is, well, what kind of relationship do we want to have with ourselves? And how do we have a relationship with ourselves? And what does that look like?
• 1:55
  Massimo Backus: And then we have to ask ourselves, well, what is our current relationship? And oftentimes, because we're not actively thinking about this…
• 2:02
  Massimo Backus: It's not the kind of relationship that we want. So what do I mean by that?
• 2:07
  Massimo Backus: For you, or anyone who's listening, if you think that if you spoke to other people the way that you speak to yourself, would you have friends? Would people want to hang out with you if you talk to the people the way that you talk to yourself?
• 2:18
  Massimo Backus: people
• 2:19
  Massimo Backus: would laugh at that question, because they'd go, oh my god, God, no. I'm so hard on myself, I'm so critical, nothing's ever good enough, I'm always socially comparing, I'm never satisfied, I always want more control, whatever it might be.
• 2:30
  Massimo Backus: Like, well, then that's the crux of the issue, right? Why do we… why do we treat ourselves so much more poorly than we treat other people? And why do we hold on to the myth that
• 2:41
  Massimo Backus: we're only treating ourselves badly, other people don't actually get impacted by it.
• 2:46
  Massimo Backus: ultimately not true.
• 2:47
  Massimo Backus: Because all the behaviors that we do that we want to change that make us a less effective communicator, or a manager or leader, it all comes back to the way that we are treating ourselves. How do we handle…
• 3:00
  Massimo Backus: Failure, setbacks, whether we're getting external validation that we seek or not, social comparison.
• 3:08
  Massimo Backus: It all comes back to…
• 3:11
  Massimo Backus: the way that we're in relationship with ourselves. And by the way, Melinda, I'm not someone who…
• 3:16
  Massimo Backus: I don't have a perfect relationship with myself either. I'm… I can be critical, I can be harsh, you know, I'm guilty of all those things.
• 3:25
  Massimo Backus: I also had the privilege and the opportunity to have this epiphany and learn about self-compassion. And…
• 3:32
  Massimo Backus: It changed everything for me, and it has for all the people that I work with that have been introduced to it.
• 3:41
  Massimo Backus: And just imagine a world where people had a more loving relationship with themselves, like, what's possible? What could be different?
• 3:49
  Massimo Backus: I don't know exactly what that looks like, but I know it's not bad.
• 3:52
  Melinda Lee: Right, it's gonna be way better. I'm on that train, I'm on that movement with you, let's go, let's go!
• 3:59
  Massimo Backus: Go!
• 4:00
  Melinda Lee: So, how does that relate? Can you share one story about how you put this into practice, on stage? How did you have self-compassion when things did not go well?
• 4:10
  Massimo Backus: Yeah, I mean, I find that every time that,
• 4:13
  Massimo Backus: that I'm on stage giving a keynote, or addressing really any audience for that matter, there is an opportunity for me to practice self-compassion, because I'm a human, and mistakes,
• 4:26
  Massimo Backus: Sometimes they're in our control, sometimes they're not.
• 4:30
  Massimo Backus: But just last month, I was giving a keynote to, a few hundred executives, and I noticed in the middle of the talk, I was in some, like, really impassioned part, and everybody, you know, they were like, I had them on pins and needles, and I noticed there was a typo on the slide.
• 4:45
  Massimo Backus: And I was like, oh shit, because, you know, these slides are really big up on stage, so I was like, if I saw it, I'm pretty sure that everyone else there saw it, and I knew there would be people in the room that were those that pride themselves on being nitpickers and being able to pick out typos and slides, so I was certain that they saw it.
• 5:00
  Massimo Backus: And it wasn't a scripted part of the talk, but I realized, well, this is a moment to actually demonstrate self-compassion.
• 5:07
  Melinda Lee: Because…
• 5:08
  Massimo Backus: Self-compassion has 3 main parts. The first is self-awareness, meaning I was aware in that moment that my inner critic was going wild. How could you have this type of… how come you didn't catch it? You looked at these slides a thousand times before, you've given this talk so many times before.
• 5:21
  Massimo Backus: What a fool, you embarrassed yourself, so on and so forth.
• 5:25
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 5:25
  Massimo Backus: The second thing is common humanity and a connection to the people. And what I realized in that moment is that this is not the first time this has happened to me.
• 5:33
  Massimo Backus: And that I'm not the only person that it's happened to.
• 5:36
  Massimo Backus: So I actually asked the audience, I said, does anybody else here notice this typo on the slide here? And everyone goes, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 5:43
  Massimo Backus: I said, just go ahead and raise your hand if you've ever been giving a presentation and you had a typo on your slide.
• 5:49
  Melinda Lee: Hmm, that's a good one.
• 5:51
  Massimo Backus: And every single person's hand went up in the room, or at least, you know, it looked that way, right? Most people.
• 5:57
  Massimo Backus: And I said, great, this is an opportunity for us to all practice self-compassion, because what I realize is that…
• 6:02
  Massimo Backus: I'm not alone in this.
• 6:04
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 6:04
  Massimo Backus: I'm not the only person that this happened to.
• 6:06
  Melinda Lee: Oh, I love that.
• 6:07
  Massimo Backus: While I wish it wasn't the case.
• 6:09
  Massimo Backus: It doesn't have to detract from the outcome that I'm trying to achieve here with this audience, which is about the message, it's not about these slides being perfect.
• 6:17
  Massimo Backus: So…
• 6:19
  Massimo Backus: Me being able to catch myself and not beat myself up, which probably would have resulted in me not finishing the talk strong.
• 6:28
  Massimo Backus: It actually drew them in more to say, like, oh, this is… this is this person practicing it.
• 6:33
  Massimo Backus: acknowledging we make mistakes, and I'm not alone in that, and the way that I can course correct is by…
• 6:40
  Massimo Backus: self-managing so that I finish the strongest, you know, finish strong, as opposed to…
• 6:47
  Massimo Backus: becoming really self-aware in the moment, and then I'm stumbling on my words, and, you know, the whole thing falls apart.
• 6:53
  Massimo Backus: And… Those things, they just come up.
• 6:57
  Massimo Backus: But there was a collective sense of relief in the room.
• 7:01
  Massimo Backus: By this recognition that it's like.
• 7:03
  Massimo Backus: Oh, I've done that too, but now I also realize I'm not alone, because I saw everyone else's hands go up.
• 7:08
  Melinda Lee: Yes. Powerful moment.
• 7:10
  Massimo Backus: Because those are the little, little seeds of shame that we take with us throughout our careers. We make a mistake, you know, they just, they kind of add up, and we put them in this, like, little piggy bank of shame that we carry with us as leaders.
• 7:21
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 7:21
  Massimo Backus: anyone know about, and we certainly don't want to mention it or talk about it.
• 7:25
  Massimo Backus: But it happens. And,
• 7:28
  Massimo Backus: gosh, I wish I could say that that was the only, you know, typo on the slide in that presentation, but…
• 7:36
  Massimo Backus: Did something happen when it was, you know, ported over into the,
• 7:40
  Massimo Backus: To the other, you know, laptop before it was presented, but there was another slide.
• 7:43
  Melinda Lee: Got it.
• 7:45
  Massimo Backus: Like…
• 7:46
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 7:46
  Massimo Backus: okay, you know, we'll pivot, and we'll roll with it. And,
• 7:53
  Massimo Backus: later in that talk, I read a declaration of self-compassion that's in my book as an example. It's like, to put these things into words is very different.
• 8:02
  Massimo Backus: Than to hear someone talk about it. You can hear me talk about self-compassion, but when you say your… to yourself…
• 8:08
  Massimo Backus: This is what it's going to look like for me to practice self-compassion. It becomes more real.
• 8:14
  Massimo Backus: Because now you're putting into your own words, as opposed to yet another, you know, quote-unquote expert.
• 8:19
  Massimo Backus: Telling me what I'm supposed to do to, you know, make my life better.
• 8:24
  Massimo Backus: and… That… Was just intended for me to share it as an example.
• 8:31
  Massimo Backus: And when I was done, and I'm happy to read it here, too, if it'd be helpful, Melinda.
• 8:36
  Massimo Backus: after I finished, reading the declaration, someone in the audience raised their hand, and they asked, would it be okay if we all read that declaration together?
• 8:46
  Massimo Backus: And so…
• 8:48
  Massimo Backus: Me and several hundred leaders all read this declaration, and each of those people were saying the words to themselves, for themselves, practicing compassion for
• 8:58
  Massimo Backus: The pressure that they feel, the responsibility they feel as executives and…
• 9:04
  Massimo Backus: The people that they're responsible for.
• 9:08
  Massimo Backus: And at the end of that, there was a very palpable shift of energy in the room.
• 9:13
  Massimo Backus: Because it went from somebody on stage telling them about the importance of something.
• 9:17
  Massimo Backus: For them, they had a very visceral reaction to
• 9:21
  Massimo Backus: What it felt like to say these words of kindness to themselves that they have not maybe said ever, or very rarely.
• 9:32
  Melinda Lee: I love that. I mean, for them to have that visceral…
• 9:35
  Melinda Lee: sense and shift, and I think you're right, I mean, because a lot of these leaders, executives, they put so much pressure on themselves, on other people.
• 9:44
  Melinda Lee: And then not even really understanding or realize the impact that they have when they, because I think they're always on the chase. They're always on the go, trying to meet objectives. There's just a lot of pressure, and… and the reality is, is…
• 10:00
  Melinda Lee: The pressure can also, be too much, and then we forget to have self-compassion when things don't go as planned, which will happen a lot.
• 10:10
  Melinda Lee: These days. And so how do we treat ourselves when, not if, but when things don't go as planned?
• 10:16
  Massimo Backus: Yeah, and I think, people often mistake self-compassion for, self-pity or a sign of weakness.
• 10:25
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 10:25
  Massimo Backus: and… It's the… the complete opposite is true, and all of the.
• 10:29
  Melinda Lee: Excuse me.
• 10:29
  Massimo Backus: been done over the last 20 years around self-compassion. Those that have a regular practice of it are actually more resilient in the face of adversity. Yeah. Have a greater ability to be agile in learning and take greater responsibility for their contribution to something.
• 10:44
  Melinda Lee: So…
• 10:45
  Massimo Backus: It actually promotes the qualities that we… we want.
• 10:48
  Massimo Backus: But we have to get over this kind of disbelief that by being kind to ourselves, that we'll lose our competitive edge.
• 10:55
  Melinda Lee: Right.
• 10:55
  Massimo Backus: fundamentally not true.
• 10:57
  Melinda Lee: I totally agree. Right. Because I think if they, yeah, they think that, oh, if we lose that, they're going to lose our competitive edge, we're too nice to ourselves, we're gonna slack off.
• 11:06
  Massimo Backus: Yeah.
• 11:07
  Massimo Backus: Yeah, and it makes sense. I can understand why somebody would think, like, being nice to myself, like, then I, you know, well, then maybe I won't care as much. It's like, no, the complete opposite is true.
• 11:18
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 11:19
  Massimo Backus: It's, because beating ourselves up doesn't actually make us more effective.
• 11:24
  Melinda Lee: No, right, that's a thing, right.
• 11:26
  Massimo Backus: We think it does until we interrogate that idea and go, wait a second, every time I've been really hard on myself.
• 11:32
  Massimo Backus: did I actually do better as a result, or did I just, you know, feel like,
• 11:38
  Massimo Backus: that… that self-punishment was… was deserving because I did something wrong.
• 11:45
  Melinda Lee: And usually, what I find is when I'm in that mode of self-punishment or critical, then I usually… I can go into a situation with that lens.
• 11:56
  Melinda Lee: oh my gosh, I'm gonna mess up, oh no, this has to be perfect. And then when I'm in that state of everything has to be perfect, this is not gonna go well, then… then it has more likelihood to have that…
• 12:11
  Melinda Lee: outcome.
• 12:12
  Massimo Backus: Yes It's like when you're riding a bike or a motorcy.
• 12:15
  Melinda Lee: Right.
• 12:16
  Massimo Backus: Where you wanna look to where you're gonna go.
• 12:18
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 12:18
  Massimo Backus: Right? Well, if you're looking for the problems and the things to trip on, then you'll probably trip.
• 12:23
  Melinda Lee: Right. And how do you handle with being less… trying to be less, you know, more compassion, more… more, like, imperfection on stage? I sometimes will still struggle with that, in terms of, you know, I want to hit all these points, I want to… I put a lot of pressure with myself to… what is… can you share some of your techniques to…
• 12:46
  Melinda Lee: Just be more you.
• 12:49
  Massimo Backus: Yeah.
• 12:50
  Massimo Backus: Well, so much of it is, what's my mindset going into it?
• 12:54
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 12:54
  Massimo Backus: So, I like to come into every speaking engagement, with the true appreciation.
• 13:00
  Massimo Backus: for, the work that I have done to put myself in that position.
• 13:05
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 13:06
  Massimo Backus: A true sense of gratitude for the opportunity.
• 13:09
  Melinda Lee: Yeah. Like, really internalize that. I think it's easy to…
• 13:11
  Massimo Backus: throw out, you know, oh, I'm so grateful, but to really internalize both gratitude for the opportunity and appreciation for the hard work
• 13:21
  Massimo Backus: That I've put in to be able to be in that position, right? It's a bit of both.
• 13:25
  Melinda Lee: And how did you come up with all of these concepts? Like, is it, through meditation? Is it through spirituality? I'm just curious.
• 13:35
  Melinda Lee: Is it just reflection? Is it…
• 13:37
  Massimo Backus: All of the above. You know, through education, through experience, through just time.
• 13:45
  Massimo Backus: You know, I remember in graduate school, I was a little bit older than some of the other students that were there, and one of them came up to me and said, you know.
• 13:55
  Massimo Backus: You know, I want to be able to do what you're doing.
• 13:57
  Massimo Backus: And I said, the only difference between you and me is time.
• 14:00
  Massimo Backus: Meaning, the only difference is that I've been doing this longer than you.
• 14:04
  Massimo Backus: And therefore, I have more experience and more knowledge, and so you perceive me as being better. I'm not better, I just am further along the journey than you are.
• 14:13
  Melinda Lee: At this point in time.
• 14:15
  Massimo Backus: And…
• 14:16
  Massimo Backus: what's cool is I ran into that, that woman just last year. I hadn't seen her in, you know, 15 years or something, and she said, that stuck with me.
• 14:25
  Massimo Backus: And I have shared that same wisdom with countless other people in my own career. Yeah. And so,
• 14:33
  Massimo Backus: I don't have a silver bullet, I don't think of myself as a special person in any way whatsoever.
• 14:38
  Massimo Backus: I think the measure of a person is… Can you get back up?
• 14:43
  Massimo Backus: You know, after getting knocked down.
• 14:45
  Massimo Backus: And I've been knocked down a lot, and I just keep getting back up, and learn from those things. You know, it's not just about, can you endure, you know, punishment to get back up.
• 14:56
  Massimo Backus: But can you learn from the fall? And I try to learn from
• 15:00
  Massimo Backus: Every one of those falls, and to get to your question about
• 15:03
  Massimo Backus: You know, being authentic on stages.
• 15:05
  Massimo Backus: the more humanity I can show on stage, the more authentically me I can be by… if a mistake is there, hey, let's call it out.
• 15:13
  Massimo Backus: Hmm.
• 15:14
  Massimo Backus: I think that's important, and I try and humanize myself by
• 15:18
  Massimo Backus: Even sharing, like, here are my shortcomings, here, like, here are the things that…
• 15:25
  Massimo Backus: a younger version of myself would never want you to know about me. Yeah. And I'm not sharing it because I'm trying to, you know, vulnerability bomb you. I'm sharing it because I'm not ashamed of it.
• 15:36
  Massimo Backus: And you may have something like that, too, and I don't want you to be ashamed of that either, because it's… Yeah.
• 15:41
  Massimo Backus: You're just being human.
• 15:42
  Massimo Backus: You know?
• 15:44
  Melinda Lee: And I think the people that are on this journey of,
• 15:49
  Melinda Lee: Sometimes we have these situations that put us in these type of… where we can make a choice to hide it, or to share it.
• 15:58
  Melinda Lee: Right? I think, like, I've had so many recently situations where I was almost forced to be like, in that moment, am I going to try to hide this imperfection, or am I going to share it and connect with other people? And I love what you did was raise your hand if you've ever felt this way, and, you know, let's just all connect at this level, and so I love, you know, having that in my back pocket, because I know there's going to be other moments
• 16:23
  Melinda Lee: moments where things don't go the way I want, and then so I have opportunity at that moment to, like you said, like, connect, share it, even, you know, not to try and make people… it's just because, it's a part of me, because I'm not, you know, I've accepted of it. You know, it's more of me showing and leading by example.
• 16:43
  Melinda Lee: That we're…
• 16:44
  Massimo Backus: Yeah, yeah. You know, I guess that's one of the benefits of talking about self-compassion, Linda, is that there's lots of opportunities to say, hey, case in point.
• 16:51
  Melinda Lee: Case in point!
• 16:53
  Massimo Backus: So, here it is, this just happened. But,
• 16:57
  Massimo Backus: one thing that you know to be true, that I know to be true, is that
• 17:03
  Massimo Backus: when we are transparent and we share, it invites other people to do the same. Yeah. And this is not…
• 17:11
  Massimo Backus: This isn't the type of work that we do in isolation, you know? Self-compassion isn't a selfish act.
• 17:16
  Massimo Backus: It's something that we can actually do, you know, in community. Yeah. And we do that by sharing, here are, you know, here are my hopes and dreams, and here are my fears and self-doubts, and…
• 17:26
  Massimo Backus: Here are the things that I'm feeling, which are complex, and they're varied, but
• 17:31
  Massimo Backus: We just met, but I know for a fact that you have felt joy in your life, and happiness, and sadness, and despair, and loneliness. Why do I know these things? Because you're a human.
• 17:43
  Massimo Backus: And where we get lost as leaders and executives is we disassociate from those things. Well, now that I have this title, or this pay, or this size organization, I shouldn't be feeling these things anymore. So I'm gonna distance myself from them.
• 17:56
  Massimo Backus: As opposed to realizing we're all human.
• 17:58
  Massimo Backus: When there's uncertainty, we can feel fear. That's normal. That makes sense.
• 18:03
  Massimo Backus: And once we are aware of what that feeling is, and we can actually name it in a tangible way, then we can do something with it. And that's the empowering piece of this, right? If we make a mistake on stage.
• 18:15
  Massimo Backus: If I name what it is, well, now I'm not alone in the shame of what it is. Now it's something that's like, hey, it's ours, how can we make this a learning opportunity?
• 18:24
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 18:25
  Massimo Backus: I hope that I will never use that as a crutch.
• 18:28
  Massimo Backus: You know?
• 18:29
  Massimo Backus: But I do think it's a powerful… Like, rubric for…
• 18:35
  Massimo Backus: You know, creating value in learning.
• 18:37
  Melinda Lee: I love it, that we're doing it together. I have one more question before the last question, just… and I don't know if you know, if you… if this is part of your book, but is… how is compassion… self-compassion tied to self-forgiveness?
• 18:52
  Massimo Backus: Yeah, they're really closely related. You know, I think that,
• 18:58
  Massimo Backus: Self-compassion is about being able to offer ourselves empathy, understanding what it is that we're feeling, and then do something to, support that or alleviate that. You know, if it's a negative feeling, what can I do to make myself feel better?
• 19:11
  Massimo Backus: And in a productive way. I'm not talking about, like, escapist behavior, like,
• 19:17
  Massimo Backus: Shopping makes me feel better, like, that's, you know, not necessarily a healthy, sustainable thing to do, or…
• 19:22
  Melinda Lee: Mmm, right.
• 19:23
  Massimo Backus: kind of basis.
• 19:24
  Massimo Backus: And in that, in the practice of self-compassion, we end up uncovering the things that.
• 19:31
  Massimo Backus: That we're holding onto that we need to forgive ourselves for, because they're often… signals of…
• 19:37
  Massimo Backus: You know, a difficult feeling they were having.
• 19:39
  Massimo Backus: So they're really closely related, and self-forgiveness is an incredibly powerful thing to do. It's very difficult.
• 19:47
  Massimo Backus: You know, before starting my, my coaching firm.
• 19:52
  Massimo Backus: I spent my career in the corporate world, and I got fired, you know? It wasn't a restructuring, I can't hide behind any, you know, story of, you know, it was just the business decision.
• 20:02
  Massimo Backus: And it was awful. And I realized that, I had so much shame around it, and guilt. I didn't want to talk about it, and it was something I didn't want people to know.
• 20:13
  Massimo Backus: But I had to forgive myself so that I could do that, because I didn't want that to be something that I felt like I needed to hide. Then it would… then it would still own me.
• 20:22
  Massimo Backus: would have power over me, as opposed to, it's something that happened, and I, you know, you learn from it.
• 20:27
  Massimo Backus: But I also wanted to forgive other people that were a part of it.
• 20:31
  Massimo Backus: Because I didn't want to hold on to resentment towards them either.
• 20:35
  Massimo Backus: and, yeah, it's… they are really closely related.
• 20:40
  Massimo Backus: Self-forgiveness is… is a tricky thing, you know? But,
• 20:45
  Massimo Backus: But if you can do the hard work to actually get through it, It's very freeing to…
• 20:51
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 20:52
  Massimo Backus: The things that we once had shame about, to be able to just own them as a part of, like.
• 20:57
  Massimo Backus: That's a part of my story, you know? And if you're gonna share your story, I'm happy to tell you about all the highs, but if you're gonna hear those, then you should probably hear about the lows, too.
• 21:07
  Massimo Backus: Because no one's story is as clear as our resume suggests, where it's just like, high point, high point, high point.
• 21:13
  Melinda Lee: Right.
• 21:13
  Massimo Backus: But that's not… that's not the whole story.
• 21:16
  Melinda Lee: Right, right. Oh, it's so powerful. I love that. And what would be, out of all of this, because you've shared so much wonderful insight with compassion and…
• 21:27
  Melinda Lee: self-compassion, and letting go of perfection, and also just that last piece with forgiveness. What would be that one leadership golden takeaway that you want the audience to remember?
• 21:40
  Massimo Backus: This idea of… Being kind to ourselves can be really… Difficult.
• 21:47
  Massimo Backus: And so sometimes it's easier to start from a, kind of.
• 21:50
  Massimo Backus: a positive place. And the inverse is, like, when do I trust myself most?
• 21:55
  Massimo Backus: And so I would encourage the people listening, if they, journal or have some sort of reflective exercise, to ask themselves, when do I trust myself most?
• 22:05
  Melinda Lee: What are the conditions?
• 22:06
  Massimo Backus: that exist when I trust myself most.
• 22:09
  Massimo Backus: And what do I notice that is different about me
• 22:12
  Massimo Backus: when I'm coming from a place of self-trust, whether it be how I communicate, how I make decisions, how I relate to other people.
• 22:20
  Massimo Backus: because that's what we should all be striving for.
• 22:24
  Massimo Backus: Self-trust is something that is in our control.
• 22:28
  Massimo Backus: You know?
• 22:29
  Massimo Backus: And oftentimes, when we don't trust ourselves, it's because we're stuck in social comparison.
• 22:33
  Massimo Backus: If we're always trying to see how we stack up to other people, then we can't… we can't trust ourselves, because we're not actually basing it off of who we are, we're basing it off of who someone else is.
• 22:44
  Melinda Lee: Yeah, yeah, so we want to anchor in on those moments, right? There are those moments that you do trust yourself, because, yeah, then it could start… get so confusing when you're looking to other outside sources, so anchoring back to the trust within ourselves, and those times when you did trust yourself.
• 23:00
  Massimo Backus: Yeah, and when we… when we… a mistake happens on stage, we want to be able to trust ourselves, like… Right. All is not lost, you know? Right. This is just a pivot.
• 23:10
  Melinda Lee: That is what I tell people when we're practicing about public speaking, or talking about public speaking, it's not the practice of your talking points, it's the practice of trusting yourself.
• 23:20
  Melinda Lee: That's what you want to practice.
• 23:23
  Massimo Backus: Love it!
• 23:25
  Melinda Lee: Wonderful. Thank you, Massimo. Really appreciate your time and your expertise. And so, can you share more about how people can find you? You could talk about your book.
• 23:36
  Massimo Backus: Massimobacus.com, I… just Google Mossimo Backus, I think I'm the only… the only one that's out there. And, my book is called Human First, Leader Second, How Self-Compassion Outperforms Self-Criticism, and please check it out, and I, again, I'm on a mission to spread… to spread the word about this. I, I, I…
• 23:56
  Massimo Backus: I see a world where, we all are better equipped at having a kind and loving relationship to ourselves. That is the world that I want to live in.
• 24:05
  Melinda Lee: I'm with you.
• 24:07
  Melinda Lee: I'm with you, let's go there. Thank you so much, let's do that. And I imagine that world where we can have more self-compassion for ourselves, and that is truly where, we're gonna make more change.
• 24:20
  Massimo Backus: Yeah.
• 24:21
  Melinda Lee: Change.
• 24:21
  Massimo Backus: Yeah, and Linda, thank you so much. I love what you're doing with this podcast.
• 24:25
  Melinda Lee: Thank you.
• 24:26
  Massimo Backus: You know.
• 24:28
  Massimo Backus: opportunities to kind of take a peek behind the curtain, you know, the things that look glossy on the surface.
• 24:34
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 24:35
  Massimo Backus: Hear about what's really going on is great.
• 24:37
  Melinda Lee: Really? No, I think that people on the outside will see, oh, they've all got it all together. Well, the reason why is because we've had to work through all of these challenges, and to show… to show self-compassion to ourselves, which therefore, yeah, leads to, better leadership.
• 24:55
  Massimo Backus: chat.
• 24:55
  Melinda Lee: Yeah. Thank you so much, and thank you so much, audience, for being here. I trust that you got your takeaway. Implement them right away, and until next time, I am your sister in flow. May prosperity flow to you, through you, and onto others. Take care, lots of love. Bye-bye.
• 25:13
  Melinda Lee: Bye-bye, Massimo!
• 25:15
  Massimo Backus: Bye, thank you.
• 25:16
  Melinda Lee: Thank you.