Latest / 4-Freedom Podcast / 184. Fundmental Footprints - Lester Roloff, Peter Ruckman, Tom Malone, & Carl Hatch

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184. Fundmental Footprints - Lester Roloff, Peter Ruckman, Tom Malone, & Carl Hatch · 4-Freedom Podcast

0:00
For freedom you set me free, not for change.
0:03
Not for guilt. Not.
0:04
For Pharisee grace, lift the. Flame.
0:06
Now I'm puffing. Peace signals and victory
0:09
justified. Released.
0:12
Welcome to the For Freedom podcast.
0:15
This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for
0:18
everyday Christians with everyday issues.
0:21
I ain't. Saved by dress codes, not by
0:23
what I eat. I'm covered in the
0:25
righteousness. Washed from head to feet.
0:27
No tally of tradition, No man made code.
0:30
Blood bought my freedom. Now I ride that road.
0:32
They clutch pearls when they see smoke rings rise.
0:35
But my prey still ascends past the legalist cries.
0:38
Christ plus nothing. That's the real math.
0:40
So miss me with your fence laws and your extra path.
0:44
He sat with sinners, I'm sitting with Saints.
0:46
Slipping grace from the bottle, No room for face.
0:48
I like one for liberty. Toast to the king.
0:51
Every ash of sermon. Death has lost its sting.
0:55
For freedom, he set me free. Not for change, not for guilt,
0:58
not for Pharisee Grace slit the flame now puffing peace.
1:02
Cigars and victory Justified released for.
1:06
Freedom. He set me free.
1:07
Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee Grace slit the
1:11
flame now puffing peace. Cigars and victory.
1:14
Justified. Released Let grace begin for.
1:18
Freedom he bet me free not for. Change not for.
1:20
Guilt not for. Pharisee grace slit the flame.
1:24
Now here your host James Seyfried and Brett Martin.
1:28
Welcome back to the Four Freedom podcast.
1:30
What a great time it is to be able to record today the day it
1:34
will be our final episode of the fundamental Footprints.
1:39
The the old guys, the guys who who went on before, who plowed
1:43
the way for the fundamental side of it, and we'll jump into that
1:47
here in a little bit. We are going to look at in the
1:50
future, we'll give you a sort of a look here.
1:52
We're going to be going through the future of fundamentalism.
1:55
Those that were a part of it and have left and those that are
1:58
still a part of the fundamentals movement, the IFB movement.
2:01
We want to share some of those modern day stories.
2:04
These are guys that are still living.
2:05
Those are guys that are still on the scene today and excited
2:09
about some interviews we have coming up with that.
2:11
But Brett, we are in the first week of September, Man of the
2:15
fall. It is here.
2:17
Hopefully we don't get a false fall and it breaks back up into
2:20
the 90s and hundreds and I go to sweating again.
2:23
But I always enjoy the fall weather.
2:27
If you're APSL guy, pumpkin spice latte or apple cinnamon.
2:32
I don't know which one you are. If you're either one of them, my
2:35
wife has been stock in the fridge with pumpkin spice
2:39
Creamer and and different things like that.
2:42
I'm just a traditional French vanilla guy.
2:45
Where you stand on that? Are you APSL guy or no?
2:48
You know, I mean, to be honest, since it's just it comes a
2:53
season every year, it doesn't, you know, it's not around very
2:56
long. I do like a little pumpkin
2:59
spice. I'm not going to lie.
3:01
Don't mind a little pumpkin spice.
3:03
But you got the coffee, you have the pumpkin spa fresheners, you
3:06
got the pumpkin spice candles to get the pumpkin spice Oparis
3:11
that I my wife would make me wear the pumpkin spice Cologne
3:15
if they made it. But pumpkin spice everywhere.
3:19
But I do always enjoy this time of year, fall time, leaves
3:23
changing color, things like that.
3:26
It's a great, great season. And let let let me, I should
3:30
have mentioned this. I should have mentioned this
3:32
last week and I didn't. Did you see what JC did to that
3:36
serving clip of me that he posted?
3:39
Did you see the? The chop best, best meme I've
3:43
ever seen, best reinvention of someone trying to cheer on the
3:50
worst team in in college football last year, I think they
3:52
didn't win a game at all. And so he had to pull out a big
3:56
time preacher man trying to chop him on.
3:59
And that, yeah, that was awesome.
4:00
I loved it. Yeah, yeah, I would, you know,
4:02
if if it was the Braves, I'll be like, yeah, shout punch.
4:07
I'm a big Braves fan, but yeah, I digress.
4:11
I mean the, the, the timing of it was just so awesome too.
4:15
Like it fit perfect. I I was amazed.
4:18
We didn't have to speed the clip up at all, it just it fit.
4:20
Perfectly. Yeah, it did.
4:23
Man, that was awesome. Hey, I want to give a quick plug
4:25
to our cigars. If you've never experienced one
4:29
of our cigars, go by and check them out.
4:31
We are getting closer to holiday season where people are looking
4:35
to buy some gifts. Maybe it's a birthday or
4:39
Christmas time. What a great present that would
4:42
be to a father or grandfather that may enjoy that or just a
4:46
hobby that you can enjoy with friends and family.
4:49
Go over to our website also to 16a9.com back slash 4 Freedom
4:54
Cigars and you can check those out.
4:56
And we've got a big, big thing coming out here in the future
4:59
that we've been working on with a couple of different people.
5:02
And it's a little way where you can support the podcast and be a
5:06
part of some things that are going on.
5:09
I'll be next week, I'll be in Tennessee at a conference in
5:12
Tullahoma with some big name guys, James White, Jeffrey Rice
5:18
and some other guys. And we'll have some things set
5:21
up there with a booth selling some books, hanging out, getting
5:25
to know some people. So if you're in the area, if
5:27
you're in the Tennessee area, let us know.
5:28
We'd love to get there with you and get together that 11th, 12th
5:34
and 13th of September. Brett.
5:37
Got some things else coming up. Big trip in January.
5:41
You want to tell us about that? Oh yes, we are going to Israel
5:45
and then I'm looking forward to our trip.
5:48
It's getting closer, it's getting ready.
5:51
We are getting ready, getting things together and we want to
5:55
invite you and if you have ever if you want to come with us to
5:59
Israel, our our trip is, you know, last of January, beginning
6:04
of of February and man, now is the time to go either still time
6:11
you still have time to to join our trip with us to get your
6:16
deposit in to get your payments in.
6:18
There's still time. Let me tell you will never
6:21
regret going to the promised land to the Holy Land.
6:24
The tours are there. It's safe, it's open probably
6:28
you'll probably be safer there now than you ever will ever will
6:33
have an opportunity to be safe there in the future.
6:37
And let me tell you now you're never going to regret going it
6:41
it it brings the Bible to life. I'm love to share it with my
6:46
family and my church. And so we've got some spots and
6:50
we want to put it before you. If you're a listener and you'd
6:53
like to go hit us up DMS on social media, tell us you're
6:58
interested in the trip. We'll get you the information.
7:02
I'm telling you, you're not going to want to miss this.
7:05
Absolutely, Brett. We have been listen AI and some
7:10
of the things with AI right now has been crazy and we have been
7:15
experiment a little bit with some music.
7:17
And by now I know that we have two albums out on Spotify.
7:23
I know you can access them on TikTok.
7:25
They're still not out on iTunes. I'm still trying to work out the
7:28
the kinks to get them out on iTunes and Apple Music.
7:32
But you can go to Spotify, you can look up my name or for
7:35
Freedom Music and you can access that.
7:38
We have had a fun time putting together Right now we've got
7:41
about 11 songs out. We've got 5 that are with just
7:45
talking about the What for Freedom is about and some
7:49
different music I want about me and Brett.
7:51
And then I put out a family song.
7:53
All my kids wanted a song and so I made-up some songs for them
7:58
and put some music to it. And just recently I decided, you
8:01
know, I'm going to go through and I'm going to put together an
8:04
album of the men of God. And I want to just share some of
8:09
the titles that we've got for this Brett to help some of our
8:14
listeners out. We've got the pistol packing
8:16
preacher, this is J Frank Norris.
8:18
We've got Jack House and and you know, Jack House, he doesn't
8:21
need any other explanation other than Jack House.
8:24
And so we just, I wrote it, Jack House.
8:27
We've got the preacher with the sword.
8:28
This is John Rice and sword, the Lord, the ballad of TTU 3 to
8:33
thrive. That would be our Lee Robertson
8:36
episode, the pulpit king of Longview.
8:39
This is Bob Gray senior down in Pensacola town, Peter Ruckman,
8:43
which is one of these episodes we're talking about today.
8:46
That one I think is one of my favorite one of my favorite
8:49
songs that I've put out that that we made roll off in the
8:54
homes, the sword in his hand, Curtis Hudson taking over from
8:58
John R Rice, The Rise and Fall of Bob Gray.
9:01
This is the one in Florida. This was a fun one.
9:05
I was trying to figure out some some 12 big guys and my mom went
9:09
to Jack chick of chick tracks. And so I titled it Tiny Tracks
9:13
and fiery facts. Great, great song.
9:17
You want to listen to this when it comes out, the ballad of Jim
9:19
Vineyard and the voices across the airway of Oliver B Green.
9:24
So 12 songs on an album coming out called The Men of God.
9:28
It's going to be a great time. Hopefully you'll go and listen
9:30
to it there on Spotify, TikTok music, and hopefully soon on
9:34
Apple Music as well. I know a lot of our listeners
9:37
are Apple fans and have Apple Music and I it's also on Amazon
9:41
Music. If you've got an Amazon account
9:44
and you pay for the Amazon Music, you can go in there and
9:46
listen to it, subscribe to it, like it, and hopefully we'll be
9:49
putting out some more stuff here soon and excited about that Let.
9:54
Me tell you, I got a lot of comments about our new intro
9:59
song on the podcast. A lot of people telling me how
10:02
cool it was and how much they liked it, enjoyed it.
10:05
Have you gotten some good comments on it?
10:07
Absolutely, Yeah, I've had many guys reach out to me about that,
10:10
Kiefer likens. I want to give him a shout out.
10:12
He's the guy there in Texas that made that for us.
10:15
I sent him a couple of ideas that we were wanting and
10:18
stylistic of music and he popped that out, wrote it for us.
10:23
And man, what a great, great job he did on that.
10:27
Just cost me a couple of cigars that I mailed him and he, he's
10:30
enjoying that. But yeah, he's he's doing some
10:33
great stuff down there too. And I looking forward, we were
10:36
going to meet him in Texas when we were down there at the
10:38
convention, but his schedule changed and we weren't able to
10:42
meet. But yeah, he was a he's a great
10:43
guy and great. Thank you again Keeper for
10:46
making that for us. Absolutely, absolutely.
10:51
And so we are, I think that's pretty much all of the
10:55
housekeeping things we've got going on, right?
10:58
Yeah, absolutely. So let's jump in and we're going
11:00
to explore today the the people, the places and the power
11:03
structure. We've titled it the legends, the
11:06
loud and the legacy builders. These are the people that have
11:10
shaped the independent Fundamental Baptist movement.
11:13
Of course, we have talked through Jack Howes, Dave, Frank
11:17
Norris, John R Rice, a lot of those guys we talked about.
11:20
But today we're going to talk about some different guys,
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right? Absolutely.
11:24
You know, we're, we, we've spent a lot of time on institutions
11:29
and now we're going to take a step back or we're going to zoom
11:33
into some key figures in the movement, Men who's, who's their
11:37
preaching, their writing, their ministry philosophies have left
11:44
a deep imprint on the IFP world. Like you may have been in your
11:49
IFP church and been influenced by these men and not even known
11:54
it. Like you're like, my pastor went
11:57
to pastor school and he would be influenced by different men and
12:02
bring that back to the our church and implement that.
12:07
And so we would have this, this, this impression on from some of
12:11
these men that we didn't even know that they were influencing
12:15
us. So these key figures, they've
12:17
had a lot of influence in the independent fundamental Baptist
12:20
world. Yeah.
12:22
And in the future, we may come back and do a whole episode of
12:25
one or two of these. But forsake of time and the way
12:28
that the schedule has been rolling, we decided to lump
12:30
these four together. We're going to be talking about
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Lester Roloff, Peter Ruckman, Tom Malone, and Carl Hatch.
12:39
Each of these men, they represent a different flavor of
12:41
the IFB bread. They are they, they have such a
12:45
different flair, but in each and every one of them, they have had
12:48
some huge movement and some huge understanding of shaping the IFB
12:53
in the way they are. And so by understanding who they
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are, it helps us understand the movement as a whole and sort of
13:00
what spawns out of this. Exactly.
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So let's start with the first one.
13:06
We're going to start with Lester Roloff, and so give you some
13:10
background information. Lester Roloff was born in 1914.
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He was a Texas preacher who gained national attention
13:16
through his radio program, The Family Altar, and through his
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chain of Homes for Trouble used. Now, I've heard about these
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homes. I've always heard about these
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homes, even even after Lester Roloff was gone.
13:30
I know some people. I think I have a lady in my
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church that used to work in one of these homes.
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Yeah, absolutely. Lester Roloff, he was what the
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way we've entitled his is the prophet of separation.
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He he would say that they were troubled youth.
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And what we're talking about here is boys and girls who have
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been through trauma, they've been through drugs, they've been
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through broken homes. And Roloff believed in a no
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nonsense, strict biblical discipline approach.
14:00
His homes were founded on prayer, fasting, King James only
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preaching and very little tolerance for what he called
14:08
worldliness. And when we say worldliness,
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this coffee, I drink 2 cups of coffee every morning.
14:14
Coffee was not allowed. It was of the devil.
14:16
Caffeine, you couldn't have it. So worldliness was was huge in
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his mindset. If it was against what he
14:22
believed, it was worldliness. James, I don't know if I could
14:27
have handled that. I have.
14:29
I have to have my caffeine. Oh, absolutely.
14:33
That is just a must. It's another reason why I
14:35
couldn't be Mormon. Tony Hudson will always share
14:39
about when Curtis Hudson big time preacher.
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We haven't done really an episode on him.
14:45
Let's talk about the he was the successor to the sort of Lord he
14:49
would always say when when Lester Rolfe would come in, his
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dad would get super grumpy because he would come in for a
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week and preach us Lord of Lord or do something for them.
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And when he would come in, they would have to purge the House of
15:02
coffee because they would coffee wasn't allowed to hurt house
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while Lester was there. And he said by day two or three,
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all his dad was fit to be tied. He was angry.
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He was mad he'd get up and preach Hellfire and brimstone.
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He said my dad was never like that.
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He said. I never could figure out why
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until I got older and I realized the coffee left the house and
15:23
let's roll off game. Oh, that's great.
15:28
But you know, these homes became controversial and you know, if
15:31
you know anything about the documentaries that did the
15:33
documentary not too long ago, kind of the same thing happens
15:38
with these homes. In the 70s and the 80's, the
15:40
state of Texas began investigating claims of abuse,
15:45
roll off, refuse state licensing, and saw government
15:49
oversight as persecution. Yeah, he, he's a major figure
15:53
because he taught that many in the IFB that persecution was
15:58
proof of faithfulness. If you were persecuted, then you
16:02
have been faithful to the cause of Christ and that mentality
16:05
that if the government or culture pushes back, you must be
16:08
doing something right. And so this became baked into
16:13
the DNA of many IFP churches and schools of we're not going to be
16:17
accredited, we're not going to have a license in, we're not
16:20
going to do any of these things because if we do, then the
16:24
we're, we're getting the stamp approval from the government and
16:26
we're not being faithful. And so we're going to go against
16:29
that and we're going to have pushback.
16:31
And that pushback is going to prove to the world that, look at
16:34
us, we're a martyr and we're being faithful to the cause of
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Christ. Exactly.
16:39
You know, it's, it's, it's surprising to think, and I don't
16:42
know if you know this or not, but there's still places today
16:45
that hold roll off day services and, and they kind of preach
16:50
their, his sermons like their scripture and they hold this guy
16:55
to, you know, high esteem and whatnot.
16:58
And you know that celebrity culture in the IFB is always
17:02
been a problem. And I, I've mentioned this
17:06
before. After Jack Hiles died, I
17:08
remember sitting First Baptist Church Hammond and listening to
17:11
people pray to Doctor Hiles and talk to him from the pulpit.
17:16
I'm we, we, we can't find the clip, but I promise you, I
17:20
didn't imagine it. I heard Ray Young pray to Doctor
17:24
Hiles behind the pulpit at First Baptist Church, and that's a
17:28
problem with the celebrity culture and a lot of people have
17:32
elevated lists to roll off to that status.
17:35
Yeah, absolutely. You can see if you just do some
17:38
basic surgery, you can see the the history of who he was.
17:41
And, and I want to make a plug here for the We are one podcast.
17:45
They have done some extensive research an entire season on
17:48
Lester, Olaf and preacher boys as well.
17:50
They've covered this extensively.
17:53
They've had some interviews of of ladies and some guys who have
17:56
come that were a part of those homes.
17:58
And we've got an interview next week with a guy who was under
18:03
Lester Roth actually ran one of the homes shortly after he
18:05
passed away. And it was one of the men's
18:08
homes and one of the, I think the boys homes they were, they
18:12
had men, women's, boys and girls homes.
18:14
So four different ones. And he gave some pretty good
18:17
insights. Jason Tacketts his name.
18:19
And so that that'll be next week as we discussed that a little
18:22
bit. As we move on, we're going to
18:24
talk about the man here, the King James warrior.
18:27
We're calling him this guy's the, the known as Mr. Peter, Mr.
18:32
Peter Ruckman, man. We're talking about
18:34
controversial, we're talking about conspiracy.
18:37
Ruckman was brilliant. He, he had a brilliant mind,
18:42
wrote books, but he was so divisive man.
18:45
He was he was a pastor and author, a founder of Pensacola
18:49
Bible Institute. This is not Pensacola Christian
18:52
College, not affiliated with it one bit, but oftentimes gets
18:56
confused with that. And so Ruckman, yeah, he he was
19:00
a crazy figure. We're going to talk about here
19:02
in a minute. Yeah, Ruckman.
19:04
The the only thing I know as far about just like first like
19:08
watching Peter Ruckman is all the racist clips I've seen from
19:14
YouTube. Like literally like blatant open
19:19
racism. Very easy to find on YouTube
19:22
this stuff. Seen it with my own eyes, heard
19:26
it with my own ears. So there's absolutely no
19:28
doubting that he's most known for his militant King James only
19:33
position. And he didn't just say King
19:36
James was the best translation. He taught that it was an
19:40
inspired translate translation. I get this corrected the Greek
19:45
and Hebrew. And when you hear that, we still
19:50
hear Peach preachers today parrot this this so this
19:56
ignorant statement that just has no no basis in reality and fact.
20:02
And you feel so bad for a preacher that that that parrots
20:08
this line. It's so incredibly harden my
20:13
language stupid. Yeah, no, I agree 100%.
20:17
And this is, this is called ruckmanism and you'll hear it
20:20
today. All you got to do is listen to a
20:23
couple of bad preacher clips and you'll hear some guys that'll
20:25
say that the King James corrects the Hebrew and the Greek and
20:31
it's still, yeah, his followers are called Ruckmanites.
20:35
You'll, you'll hear and you can encounter some Ruckmanites.
20:38
I've got a whole group of Ruckmanites here close by where
20:41
I'm at over in Rockwell, NC. They, they've got a picture of,
20:47
of Peter Ruckman when you walk into the sanctuary, a massive
20:50
portrait. That's a huge, huge thing of, of
20:53
just being able to, to lift up that man.
20:56
And this is the Rutmanites. They'll reject any pastor or
21:02
teacher who uses a different translation, even in private
21:06
study. You can go back and listen to
21:09
the Nathan Gravatt episode where he had that debate with James
21:15
Kanup or Jim Mitch Kanup and different can up.
21:20
Mitch can up where he and Mitch can up with been a Rutmanite.
21:24
And one big of these big things, I didn't put this in our notes.
21:26
One of the big things about Rutman is they would always, if
21:30
you are watching online or you're watching a teacher and
21:34
they've got a whiteboard or a blackboard chalkboard behind
21:37
them, that's a big sign. That's probably a Rutmanite
21:40
because that's how Peter Rutman taught.
21:42
He taught with the blackboard behind him and a piece of chalk
21:44
and that's how he would preach and teach, and a lot of these
21:48
people begin to adopt the harsh tone that he had as well.
21:52
Exactly here, here, here's another another tale.
21:57
If you hear somebody talk about the law of first mentions,
22:01
that's that's a big, big point. They might be a Rutman.
22:04
You might be a Rutmanite. If we could do a whole book of
22:08
of Jeff Foxworthy jokes. I have I have AI have a binder
22:12
right here on my shelf. Biblical interpretations in
22:16
hermeneutics 1st chapter Law first mentions that I was
22:21
thought about so listen to this this.
22:24
Guy, he is very abrasive. He had a combative writing
22:28
style. He referred to Christian leaders
22:30
who disagree with him using nicknames and mockery.
22:34
He called them Alexandrian apostates and Bible correctors.
22:39
And you know, this guy, in my opinion, just embodied the the
22:44
worst possible attributes of the IFB.
22:49
Yeah, You know, and Brett, his commentaries and books are still
22:52
in circulation today. I was at a bookstore just the
22:55
other day and I saw his commentaries were still there.
22:59
People are still using them. His influence runs deep,
23:02
especially in churches that view the intellectual or theological
23:07
nuance as a threat where they say, oh, we, we can't handle
23:11
this. We've got a this is a threat to
23:13
what we believe. So.
23:16
Yeah. Exactly, and this was a guy who
23:20
weaponized the Bible and taught others to weaponize the Bible.
23:26
He taught people to argue before they learn to understand, to
23:33
just take these false statements as gospel because he said them.
23:38
And it weaponized the Bible in a horrible way and just did a lot
23:43
of damage. Yeah, one of the things about
23:45
Ruckman that I didn't know was he wasn't a big named guy in our
23:50
college, but we had a guy, his name was Buddy Blunkall.
23:54
You may have heard that name. And to the best of my knowledge,
23:57
he was a big Ruckmanite, big follower of Ruckman, and taught
24:01
a lot of his stuff. You can look at his teaching.
24:04
Love brother Buddy, great friend and great teacher.
24:07
He's going to be with Lord now, Buddy, I was at a church in
24:11
Idaho and we played a church called Treasure Valley Baptist
24:14
Church and Treasure Valley Baptist Church.
24:17
They I went upstairs and pulled a room and they had this massive
24:19
room with graphics and weird things on the wall and they were
24:24
Ruckman's images that have blown up and put on the wall almost
24:27
like wallpaper and they were huge Rucknite shirts.
24:31
Came to find out Buddy Blunk all preach that church every year
24:34
which was further proof that he was a Ruckman and follow the
24:38
teaching of Ruckman. But Ruckman had some crazy
24:40
theories and some conspiracy theories.
24:43
I just pulled up just a couple. He taught that UFOs were
24:47
connected to demonic activity. He taught that the US government
24:51
was hiding truths about aliens and he even suggested that the
24:55
Roman Catholics behind everything from all the world
24:59
wars to the assassinations. And so those are just a couple.
25:03
He he he would misinterpret scripture often.
25:06
The one specifically is in the Old Testament where it says that
25:10
the the the the scroll was floating through the air.
25:14
He takes that as a UFOI may be getting that a little wrong, but
25:18
just a crazy, crazy theory. And he was one of those guys
25:22
where he would just go with it. Next up, you know.
25:26
We've got a UFO coming in our solar system right now, huh?
25:31
I've been watching about this. Yeah, yeah, I've been hearing
25:33
about it. Here it comes, man.
25:35
Here the Rapture. Is coming.
25:37
That's right. Next up we've got the preacher's
25:39
preacher. This is Tom Malone.
25:41
Tom Malone probably a little more less known today.
25:46
He was big in in my time I knew of him.
25:49
I heard a lot about him. But in his time, he was one of
25:52
those Giants figures. He pastored Emmanuel Baptist
25:56
Church in Potomac, Michigan. He founded the Midwestern
26:00
Baptist College, which has since closed its doors.
26:04
The church has closed its doors and the college operates on a
26:07
small non existent scale up in the north Midwestern area.
26:12
And it's sad to see because when you begin to look through this
26:16
college and this church, they were doing some huge things and
26:20
in 2014 they officially sold all their properties and and closed
26:24
the doors officially to the church.
26:27
You know, the first experience I ever had with Tom Malone was
26:33
going to House Anderson and moving into the Malone dorm.
26:36
And that's the first time I'd ever heard the name.
26:39
And, you know, they talked about it being a cowboy preacher and
26:43
things like that. But Malone had a deep burden for
26:46
revival. He was a preacher's preacher.
26:49
He was biblical, passionate and grounded.
26:52
His sermons focus heavily on salvation, repentance, and holy
26:56
living. Yeah, yeah.
26:59
He trained hundreds of pastors who will only leave churches all
27:02
across the country. But like Lee Robertson, he
27:05
helped build the machine of the organization, one that measured
27:10
spirituality by the success of numbers.
27:13
And often times when we begin to put those those things together,
27:17
they're it's a means to an end in multiple worlds.
27:21
And at the very end, I'm going to quote something by by JC and
27:25
Mark Milioni that we have received after the episode with
27:28
JC. And I think it's going to shed
27:30
some some light on on even Malone and Lee Robertson on how
27:33
things go. OK, what?
27:36
What's different with Malone is that you sense the real depth of
27:40
sincerity. He wasn't theatrical.
27:43
He wasn't a cult of personality. He wanted men to preach the Word
27:47
faithfully and love their people.
27:50
Yeah, and the culture that he helped shaped still lean toward
27:55
conformity. Very strict views on clothing,
27:59
on music, on dating, on entertainment.
28:02
Even if it wasn't militant, the movement became that way in
28:07
time. We always see this generation
28:09
begin to go further and further into this path.
28:13
Brett, Carl Hatch, the sole winner with Stopwatch.
28:16
I think you've got more stories of Carl Hatch than I do.
28:20
I think he was big in the house, Anderson side.
28:22
So. So why don't you jump in and
28:23
give us our last figure of the day?
28:27
You know, Carl Hatch, I probably know more about of the of all of
28:31
these. I actually I was thinking back
28:33
and I had forgot to tell you this, but I actually sat in an
28:37
iron skillet in Sherryville, Indiana and sat and had a meal
28:44
at the same table with Carl Hatch.
28:47
And it was years and years and years ago.
28:50
And then when I came to, when I came to Bethel and what started
28:55
going to Tri-state, I stayed in the Carl Hatch dorm and Carl
29:00
Hatch would come to Bethel every year and preach A revival.
29:05
And so I've been around Carl Hatch a lot, but Carl Hatch is
29:09
one of those guys in in the IFB world.
29:14
If you've, you've always heard stories like Carl Hatch LED five
29:19
people to Christ in the gas station bathroom or he won his
29:22
cab driver to the Lord in 30 seconds.
29:25
And Carl Hatch is definitely on the list of people who've
29:28
witnessed to Elvis. A lot of INFB preachers say Jack
29:33
Kyle said he witnessed to Elvis. Carl Hatch is one of those guys
29:36
who also claimed he witnessed to Elvis.
29:38
And I'll, I'll, I'll tell you this one story before we move
29:42
on. I had one of my professors at
29:46
tri-state, he tells the story where he took Carl Hatch to, you
29:53
know, to a restaurant. And Carl Hatch is very, you
29:57
know, he'll talk to to people, talk to waitresses.
29:59
He witnessed witnesses to everybody.
30:03
But there was this one instance where the waitress called him
30:07
Honey or babe or something like that.
30:10
And Carl stopped right there and said, no one calls me honey but
30:14
my wife. And so whenever it came time for
30:18
my professor to order food, he just ordered coffee because he
30:22
didn't want the waitress to spending his food.
30:25
And so it was a it was kind of humorous, but you know, Carl
30:29
Hatch, he would just witness to everybody.
30:31
And of course, you know, lead, lead, quote them, lead everybody
30:35
to the Lord and never see them again.
30:38
Right. Well, let me give you another
30:39
story. I found this as we were doing
30:41
some research. This came out couple of days ago
30:44
with the whole Cracker Barrel incidents that's been going on,
30:46
all the controversy with that. Loved your graphics if you put
30:49
out as well, Brett, about that. But this is a story.
30:54
In 1970, evangelist Carl Hatch met up with a guy named Danny
30:59
Wood Evans. Danny Wood Evans was an
31:02
entrepreneur in America and he founded the great Cracker
31:07
Barrel, a Southern Baptist, I'm sorry, a Southern themed
31:10
restaurant. And you may wonder if you've
31:12
ever been in the old Cracker Barrel, the new one that's going
31:15
to work. They may not have this anymore,
31:17
but they played Christian music and they didn't serve alcohol.
31:21
And you may wonder, why do they always have Christian music
31:23
going on? Why didn't they serve alcohol?
31:26
The answer was simple. Mr. Evans accepted Jesus as his
31:29
Lord and Savior. Dr. Carl Hatch personally led
31:33
him to Christ. Doctor Hatch was one of the
31:35
greatest men. This was, I'm just reading this,
31:38
Timothy Palmer that had the pleasure of knowing.
31:40
Yes, the same Carl Hatch that led Elvis to Christ.
31:45
I'm glad to have the years to enjoy this restaurant before the
31:49
world seemed to have ruined it as it does all things.
31:52
Mr. Evans would have not allowed this mess that his namesake is
31:57
on. Pray for America that it doesn't
31:59
continue to go down the foundations of destroyed by the
32:01
woke madness as Paul Harvey used to say.
32:04
Now you know the rest of the story, so Carl Hatch I.
32:08
Saw that quote. That's crazy, Carl.
32:11
Hatch had some influence in the great Cracker Barrel, but he may
32:15
be a legend. But Carl Hatch was also known
32:17
for his aggressive, relentless soul winning.
32:19
As you mentioned, he'd walk up to complete Saviors and jump
32:22
right into a gospel presentation.
32:25
Exactly, his methods were pop popularized in training programs
32:30
across across the country. IFP churches would host Carl
32:33
Hatch soul winning seminars and he was just seen as the gold
32:38
standard. Yeah.
32:40
Now the downside, Brett and and I was part of this for years.
32:43
You were as well. His model encouraged quantity
32:47
over quality. Get the decision, get the
32:50
prayer, get the number discipleship, throw it out the
32:54
door. We don't need that mess.
32:56
We long term, we don't need investment in one another.
32:59
It's number name. If you get a name, great.
33:03
If not, we got another number. You got another card you can
33:06
throw in to say you got another decision made.
33:08
But we're never going to disciple that person and we're
33:11
just going to give them some false assurance of pray this
33:14
prayer 123 believe after me. Easy believism that comes from
33:18
it. It's almost like they were
33:21
giving the Holy Spirit the job of discipling.
33:24
So I did the hard part Holy Spirit, I let him to the Lord.
33:27
Now they really got saved. They'll find their way to church
33:30
and and you'll take care of them now, Holy Spirit.
33:33
But you know, when we're called to disciple them.
33:37
He represents a form of ministry that emphasized results over
33:42
relationship. They, you know, it brought in
33:45
big numbers but didn't always have strong believers.
33:49
And I think a lot of it was Carl Hatch.
33:54
Let me tell you from the experience that I've been around
33:57
talk to him. I really enjoyed being around
33:59
Carl Hatch. He was funny.
34:01
He had that, that that gruff voice that he would do.
34:04
He thought he'd be hunched over. He was always fun to be around,
34:09
but it's almost like he had this reputation of being a numbers
34:14
guy and he had to do whatever he had to do to keep those numbers
34:18
up wherever he went. He had to, you know, go through
34:22
the spiel with somebody so he could get those numbers.
34:25
And it like you said that the numbers became more important
34:29
than the actual discipleship of the person.
34:31
Yeah, and you know, really, to be fair, Hatch was very sincere
34:35
in his love for souls. But when the church turned his
34:39
stories into templates, they began to lose the sight of the
34:43
nuance of evangelism just became a formula, not a lifestyle.
34:48
The the one that was taught to me was David Wood and his
34:52
evangelistic training. And he, he got a lot of his
34:55
stuff from Carl Hatch as well. But he would have you bow your
35:00
head and they would bow their head and you would grab their
35:02
shoulder. I mean, it was, this is how it
35:04
was. He would teachers grab their
35:05
shoulder and then in the moment of you grabbing their shoulder,
35:09
put your hand out and tell them if they want to accept Jesus, to
35:12
reach out and to grab your hand. This emotionalism that brought
35:16
in their sincerity to it. But it was this time of how can
35:21
we get this mysticism around and we're sort of manipulating the
35:24
Holy Spirit versus just teaching and preaching and letting the
35:28
Holy Spirit work in their lives. Right.
35:31
It's almost like you, you know, you know what, when I worked as
35:34
a telemarketer, they would give me a script and say, you know,
35:38
do this, this, this. And if they say this, this is
35:41
how you get them back on track. This is how you get them back.
35:45
You know that. And you just, it's just a script
35:48
and you know, and not, not every soul winning experience is
35:51
cookie cutter, you know. So you know what, let's ask the
35:54
question about all these four guys.
35:56
What? What legacy did they leave?
35:59
What did all four have in common?
36:03
Well, they were all bold, they all believed in the authority of
36:06
Scripture, and they all left a mark, some helpful and some
36:11
harmful. Yeah, and each of them, Brett,
36:14
they contributed to a culture of spiritual pressure, unhealthy
36:19
separation and really the unchecked authority which is
36:23
what leads to often times the sin that happens in ministry.
36:27
Even they had well-intentioned they they help shape the
36:32
movement that sometimes pop prioritized image over
36:36
integrity. We've got to protect the man.
36:38
We've got to protect the institution at all cost.
36:42
Throw integrity out the window. Exactly.
36:44
And listen, if if you grew up in the world of independent
36:48
fundamental baptism, independent fundamentalism, if you grew up
36:52
in that world, chances are you heard these names quoted.
36:56
If not, seeing these preachers with your own eyes, you've heard
36:59
their names quoted from pulpits written in the textbooks, their
37:03
images framed on church walls. And you know, it's OK to look
37:07
back on gratitude if you have fond memories or if they did
37:11
something that was worth gratitude.
37:14
But there's also room to look back with discernment.
37:18
Yeah, I want to end today's episode by sort of reading this
37:23
from JC. He had sent it to me and you,
37:25
and he says that Scott McCurdy was the associate pastor under
37:30
David Bowler and Highland Park Baptist Church, and David was
37:34
the president of TTU. The demise of TTU happened when
37:39
a liberty guy showed up called Danny Lovett.
37:42
He showed up and he ran the place into the ground.
37:44
There is something that you might want to make note of.
37:47
A lot of these Baptist Christian schools, if you look, there's a
37:51
pattern that when the school starts and they start going to
37:55
the athletics, they start dropping off.
37:58
It's almost like they don't care about missing the mission and
38:03
all they care about is the money.
38:05
And so they let their last ditch effort is athletics.
38:10
Brian Collins in Dayton, TN has been doing some thriving
38:13
Christian School work. They're now going down this
38:15
world, Trump, McConnell, Tennessee Temple and a lot of
38:18
others that he can't think of their name as well.
38:21
He said one that is doing it right is a school that J Frank
38:24
Norris actually started. Now I did Fact Check that I do
38:27
not believe that J Frank Norris started Bible Baptist Church,
38:31
Bible Bible College. It was a a spawn of the Bible
38:34
Baptist fellowship and he was the one that started the Bible
38:37
Baptist fellowship. And so the college started out
38:40
of his movement. But the best of my knowledge I
38:42
can't see that he started that. But he was influential in the
38:45
school as well and spoke there often there in Springfield, MO.
38:50
Now they have changed their name to Mission University.
38:53
And he said as he quotes by the by the, the professor there in
38:57
charge, Mr. Mark Milioni, he said that I quote, I will not
39:02
take the athletic route that most Christian schools have
39:04
taken because when you take that route, inevitably you begin to
39:10
failure in your mission. Now, I believe a lot of these
39:13
colleges, they take the route of Liberty.
39:16
Liberty's got AD one program they're doing, they're thriving.
39:18
They're doing some great things. But to the rest of my knowledge,
39:21
Liberty didn't start out with athletics.
39:23
They started out with the Bible. The college began to grow and
39:27
athletics began to be an afterthought.
39:29
A lot of these colleges, champion included, when they
39:32
began, I mean it was the very first year they started
39:35
athletics. They had to have the athletic
39:37
program to bring the students in, and now they begin to have
39:41
athletics and the athletics is more important than sometimes
39:44
the education. Exactly.
39:47
Well, you know, thanks for listening to the fundamental
39:50
footprints. If this episode resonated with
39:53
you or challenged you, share it with a friend and and just and
39:57
remember, asking the hard questions is is not rebellion.
40:02
It's actually maturity. And until then, just keep
40:06
seeking truth, walking in grace, and holding faith fast to the
40:10
faith that's greater than any movement.
40:12
Absolutely, and until next time, to God be the glory.
40:16
Great things he has done. Found my new name.
40:20
Found that good grace. Found that healing when the
40:25
tears fell down my face, When I found my beginning and has no
40:29
ending. I found that second chance.
40:30
Found my best friend. Found my forgiveness.
40:32
Found my happiness. I've been singing ever since.
40:33
I found my freedom. Thanks for listening to the Four
40:51
Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do
40:54
us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our
40:58
podcast on whichever podcast platform you.
41:00
Use be sure. To join us next time for the
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Four Freedom Podcast.