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Protecting Manta Rays from Over-Tourism in Hawaii – Martina Wing's Mission · How To Protect The Ocean

• 1:00:00
  I want you to picture this.
• 1:00:01
  Imagine you spend a ton of money to go to
• 1:00:03
  Hawaii, the big island Kona, Hawaii.
• 1:00:06
  And the idea of going to Hawaii is to
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  connect with nature.
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  And one of the ways to connect with
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  nature is to do a manorway dive.
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  Now this is a dive at night.
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  So it's already a little nerve wracking
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  to dive at night, but when you get in the
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  water, you have this beautiful experience
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  and it's a life-changing experience.
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  But how many is too many operators that
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  are offering this service?
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  We're going to talk to Martina Wing from
• 1:00:31
  the Manorway group as well as
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  from the Hawaii Ocean Watch.
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  She is here to talk about her experience
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  with the Manorway operating experience,
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  but also with making sure that the
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  Manorays are protected.
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  And that also the people who are the
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  tourists who are going to pay for the
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  service are also having a
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  good time and that they're safe.
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  It's been a little bit since the
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  operating industry has grown for the
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  Manorway experience.
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  And so she wants to talk about how that's
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  grown and how regulations need to be put
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  into place to protect Manorays as well as
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  the operators, as well as the people.
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  And we're going to talk about that on
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  today's episode of the How
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  to Protect the Ocean podcast.
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  Let's start the show.
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  Hey, everybody.
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  Welcome back to another exciting episode
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  of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
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  I am your host, Andrew Lewin.
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  And this is the podcast where you find
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  out what's happening with the ocean, how
• 1:01:26
  you can speak up for the ocean and what
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  you can do to live for a
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  better ocean by taking action.
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  And on today's episode, we have Martina
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  Wing, who is the owner of Manorway
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  Advocates, a tour operator that takes
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  people out on to have a beautiful
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  experience with seeing Manorays eat at
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  night, diving at night.
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  Imagine what this is this this experience
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  can do for you to connect with the ocean,
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  to connect with these majestic animals,
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  just sort of diving through doing
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  backflips in the water,
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  eating plankton at night.
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  It's crazy to think about it.
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  I am a an advanced open water dive diver.
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  I've done dives at night
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  in a lake, not in the ocean.
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  And being able to see
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  this is quite the experience.
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  People get nervous when they go in.
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  They come out with their
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  life changing experience.
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  And it's amazing.
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  And Martina is here to talk about that
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  experience and why it's so important for
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  people to connect with the ocean in this
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  way, but also that we need to protect
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  these Manorays from this operating
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  business going crazy in terms of the
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  number of operators that come in, having
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  the snorkelers come by as well as divers,
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  what to expect, and sort of what the
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  questions to ask when you are going to
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  talk to these dive
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  operators about this experience.
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  So there's a lot to
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  cover in this episode.
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  Martina was great in in divulging a lot
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  of stuff that's been going on and, you
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  know, things that need to be done,
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  regulations that need to be put into
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  place and why they
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  haven't been put into place.
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  We're still asking that question and her
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  efforts to push forward regulations for
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  these boat operators
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  or these dive operators.
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  So we're going to talk about
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  that all in today's episode.
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  And so here is the interview with Martina
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  Wing talking about
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  Manorae diving operations.
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  Enjoy the interview and
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  I'll talk to you after.
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  Hey Martina, welcome to the How to
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  Protect the Ocean podcast.
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  Are you ready to talk about Manorae's?
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  I'm so ready.
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  Thanks for letting me be on your podcast.
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  Oh, I am so excited.
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  I don't get to talk
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  about Manorae's a lot.
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  And so I'm very excited to be able to
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  talk about Manorae's.
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  And we're talking about in a very
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  different context today.
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  There's sometimes I have another podcast
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  called Beyond Jaws where we get into the
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  science like of the physiology and all
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  the morphologies and stuff of stingrays.
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  Today we're going to be
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  getting into a different type.
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  We're going to get into the conservation
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  of Manorae's but also from a in the eyes
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  and the lens of a tour operator that has
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  also a nonprofit to protect, you know,
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  ocean animals, not just the Manorae's but
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  the entire environment.
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  And we're going to be in the area of
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  Hawaii, which is a lot of fun because I'm
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  about to head over there with my family
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  in a couple of weeks.
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  So I'm very excited about that.
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  But Martina before we get into the
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  conservation aspect and everything that
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  you do, why don't you just let us know
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  who you are and what you do?
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  All right.
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  So I'm live in Hawaii and I came the
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  first time to Hawaii
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  as a tourist in 1998.
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  I'm on the big island.
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  It's on the west side.
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  It's the Kona area.
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  And when I came as a tourist, it was just
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  let's go into the ocean.
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  And I had my
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  certification and went diving.
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  It's actually this month.
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  February is my anniversary month.
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  Twenty seven years that I saw the
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  Manorae's for the first time.
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  And it is here on this coastline.
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  It's a special tour.
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  So in general, you talk
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  about ocean recreation.
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  You go somewhere tropical
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  and maybe a tour operator.
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  You go on a boat and go someplace.
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  And it's usually it
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  happens during the day.
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  But this particular activity is takes
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  place at night because we take advantage
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  of plankton being
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  concentrating around light at night.
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  And the manor population on this
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  coastline has learned of about 30 years
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  now when there's light in the ocean at
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  night, there could be is a high potential
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  that plankton is there in abundance.
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  And then the manor is
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  going to feed there.
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  Right. So when so when I was doing it in
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  98 for the very first time, the activity
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  commercially started in 1991.
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  So not too many years.
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  I was one location at this point and I
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  saw the manor is and it
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  really, really touched my heart.
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  There are big fish, the harmonies.
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  They have no teeth, no stinger, no bar.
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  And I was diving very bad diver, you
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  know, just a few dives under my belt.
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  But it's a guided tour.
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  So the dive masters took care of me and
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  you get real close ups.
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  And I mean, really like Manor is flying
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  over your head when you're diving.
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  You're staying on the bottom.
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  So you're not in that space.
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  But the idea is lights on the bottom.
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  There's actually not today lights on the
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  surface to from the snorkellers.
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  This is incredible cool setup with lights
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  at night in the ocean.
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  The plankton is in
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  abundance usually on those nights.
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  And the manor is I've learned it's the
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  class conditioning of an animal, in this
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  case, a fish in the ocean to come to a
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  place where lights attract plankton.
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  And the manor is have a nice dinner and
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  you have an incredible show.
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  And it really touched my heart.
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  That changed my whole life.
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  I can imagine Germany had finished
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  school, engineering school.
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  And then the tourists came here at first.
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  And then the end of that story in a short
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  form is I actually bought the video on my
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  very first night dive with
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  the manor is and it was my mom.
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  The HS tapes.
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  Yes.
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  We probably remember this.
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  I do.
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  And then I bought the just tape from this
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  camera person on the boat and I purchased
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  it and I did go home.
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  But I met this guy a little more.
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  Well, in other stories, I bought the
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  video and married the guy.
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  So I moved to Hawaii.
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  We are together here
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  and running a business.
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  First, it was based on photography
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  underwater photography.
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  And now we're also to operate.
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  So it's a span of 27 years.
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  But, yeah, you can actually say that it
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  was an unreal journey.
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  But I just had turned 30 at that point
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  and finished with school.
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  I had a sad chapter of my life at that
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  point and a lot of grief.
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  And then I did this manor a dive and
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  being around these animals, they're just
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  like lighting so gracefully through the
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  water that comes so close was angel like,
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  you know, it's open my
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  heart to there's more to life.
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  And so the grief bubble
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  kind of opened up a little bit.
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  And yeah, it is very,
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  it was very powerful.
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  And I believe I still
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  remember that so vividly.
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  And when I have my guests now all these
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  years, they come out of the water.
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  And they say that's one of the best
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  things they've done in their life.
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  And it's a perpetual
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  story from guest after guest.
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  They don't know what
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  to expect just like me.
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  But then they come out of
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  the water 30, 45 minutes later.
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  And what I'm doing here in Hawaii?
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  Yeah, for sure.
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  And then they go this emotional journey
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  of 30, 45 minutes and accomplish
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  something really, really special.
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  It's my favorite thing to talk about how
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  people are courageous at the end and and
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  carry that with them
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  for the rest of the life.
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  And in my case, I changed
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  the whole my my whole life.
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  It was definitely life changing, right?
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  It's literally life changing.
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  I mean, that's a phenomenal story.
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  And it's true.
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  I was thinking the same thing.
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  And I was like, this is
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  a night dive in Hawaii.
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  There were so many
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  different species that are there.
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  If you're not used to a
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  night dive, I've gone.
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  I have my advanced open water.
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  So I've done night diving, but I did it
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  in a freshwater lake here in Ontario.
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  There isn't anything that can harm me
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  other than the water itself.
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  But it's when you're in the ocean,
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  especially in a place like Hawaii and you
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  and maybe you have some preconceived notions that, you know, you're not used to it.
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  What's going on. and maybe you have some preconceived
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  notions of the water,
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  especially at night, predators come out.
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  But I imagine just being
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  at the bottom of that water,
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  looking up and seeing
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  these beautiful, beautiful fish
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  just kind of glide above you.
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  We've all seen it in documentaries.
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  And you'll probably tell
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  me it doesn't do it justice
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  until you're in the
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  water, seeing it for yourself.
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  It must just be like a movie
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  that's just in better than 4K,
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  just continuing over and in a loop.
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  And it's just got to be one of the most
• 1:09:49
  beautiful things in the world.
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  You probably have music going on in the
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  back of your head as you watch this.
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  Right. Just just phenomenal.
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  And how many like how
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  many dives do you do a week?
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  Like does your does
• 1:10:02
  your company do a week?
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  So when I used to do specifically
• 1:10:06
  underwater photography,
• 1:10:08
  actually, videography.
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  So I always what my husband did selling
• 1:10:12
  me that video back in 1998.
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  And I just joined his small
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  one person company, you know,
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  right for videographer.
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  Yeah, that really bad
• 1:10:25
  diver, 10 dives next.
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  Yeah, nothing.
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  You're kind of certified but not
• 1:10:30
  qualified for anything.
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  Right. But so that was
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  then for 17 years until 2017.
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  I solely went diving five to six times a
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  week filming the
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  guests like my husband did.
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  For me and the industry had done grown
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  more boats came out and for us because we
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  were so specialized on filming the
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  memories with the guests
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  and making a living of that.
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  Yeah. You know, more and more companies
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  said we want your service.
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  It was when they didn't have to own
• 1:11:01
  videographer or didn't have to take the
• 1:11:03
  dive master with the camera was less
• 1:11:05
  risky to write as many things happening.
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  Of course. So yeah. And over the years
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  and in 2001, I believe maybe 1999 another
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  dive site, my husband set up another dive
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  site or discovered it and establish it.
• 1:11:18
  So then there were two dive sites. And
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  for the longest time, he was at one site,
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  the original where I went to on 1998.
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  And I was at the other side. So we
• 1:11:28
  covered many companies that
• 1:11:29
  were just wanting a service.
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  So when you ask me how often was I in the
• 1:11:34
  water diving six, five to six times a
• 1:11:37
  week, pretty much from March till
• 1:11:40
  December, general fabric is really rough.
• 1:11:42
  Then you cancel more. But lots and lots
• 1:11:45
  and lots of hours on scuba and the dive
• 1:11:48
  is shallow. So for someone trying to
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  imagine it, it's the
• 1:11:52
  dive is 30 feet deep.
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  It's not that deep. It's really close to
• 1:11:55
  shore. How why our island, you know, it's
• 1:11:57
  the tip of the mountain.
• 1:11:58
  You see when sticks out of the water and
• 1:12:00
  then when you go down into the water, it
• 1:12:02
  just, you know, you stay close to shore
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  because when you go further
• 1:12:05
  out, it's just really deep.
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  Yes, really deep. So it's a close to
• 1:12:09
  shore dive 30 feet deep. But you have to
• 1:12:13
  be certified to do the dive.
• 1:12:14
  And then eventually there was then also
• 1:12:16
  the switch that snorkellers. And if you
• 1:12:18
  think of what it attracted to that people
• 1:12:20
  want to do it, most
• 1:12:22
  people are not certified.
• 1:12:23
  Then the snorkeller market opened up and
• 1:12:26
  that happened maybe 2008, nine, 10 normal
• 1:12:30
  boats came into the fold of the industry
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  that maybe only the daytime snorkeling
• 1:12:36
  then added as a new
• 1:12:38
  product snorkeling at night.
• 1:12:40
  So you had more people out there. And but
• 1:12:44
  then in 2017, I stopped filming and then
• 1:12:47
  my husband set up
• 1:12:48
  another site further north.
• 1:12:50
  And that's why I operate now as an
• 1:12:52
  operator. Okay. And over the years, about
• 1:12:55
  60 companies have established themselves
• 1:12:57
  to offer the same tour,
• 1:12:59
  either diving or snorkeling.
• 1:13:01
  And that's a lot of people. Yeah, get
• 1:13:03
  into this in a minute. Yeah. But we are
• 1:13:05
  very fortunate. My husband
• 1:13:06
  is really looking out for us.
• 1:13:09
  Our specialty is Manneri. So he set up
• 1:13:11
  with a hotel on a private beach, the
• 1:13:14
  tours. So I don't need a boat to get to
• 1:13:16
  the Manneri. So it's pretty special.
• 1:13:18
  And I'm in the water again from March
• 1:13:21
  till December. Usually we are in the
• 1:13:23
  water seven times a week and I personally
• 1:13:24
  go four to five times a week. So yeah.
• 1:13:26
  Wow. Now does the Manneri outfit, does
• 1:13:31
  that have like you guys also own the
• 1:13:33
  hotel or you work off of like when I'm a
• 1:13:36
  vendor to the hotel.
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  I'm a vendor to the hotel.
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  Okay. That is my for profit company. You
• 1:13:41
  see it here, Manteri Advocates. So if you
• 1:13:43
  would go to look for us, you know, that
• 1:13:46
  would be my website name too. But this is
• 1:13:48
  my for profit company.
• 1:13:49
  But we were branded back in 2012, 2013.
• 1:13:53
  We used to be photography only. So we
• 1:13:55
  were called Ocean Wing, Hawaii in
• 1:13:56
  photography. Now we are Manneri Advocates
• 1:14:00
  because when the industry grew and grew,
• 1:14:03
  nobody was speaking
• 1:14:03
  really for the animals.
• 1:14:04
  And I really felt compelled to be the
• 1:14:07
  advocate for the animal and it's how it
• 1:14:10
  works. Now there's a lot in the name to
• 1:14:13
  put on second. There's a printer going in
• 1:14:15
  the background. Oh, no worries. I can
• 1:14:19
  barely hear it. Okay.
• 1:14:21
  It should be good. Now,
• 1:14:23
  there's a lot in the name.
• 1:14:24
  It's several pages. So.
• 1:14:26
  That's right. There's a lot in the name.
• 1:14:29
  And, you know, having advocates at the
• 1:14:31
  end of that name is really important,
• 1:14:32
  obviously to you. And it means a lot in
• 1:14:35
  the conservation space. It means that
• 1:14:37
  you're not just a tour operator, you're
• 1:14:39
  out looking out for the Manneri's. You're
• 1:14:41
  an advocate for the Manneri's and in
• 1:14:43
  conservation, you are going to speak up
• 1:14:45
  for those Manneri's on land where there
• 1:14:47
  needs to be protections.
• 1:14:49
  As the industry grew, why did you decide
• 1:14:55
  like we need more advocates out there
• 1:14:57
  while we're doing these while we're
• 1:14:59
  writing these tours and how did that
• 1:15:00
  change your like you and your husband's
• 1:15:03
  approach when you did the tour operating?
• 1:15:06
  Yeah. So this activity works the best if
• 1:15:10
  we work together with different
• 1:15:12
  companies. You know, if you would do a
• 1:15:14
  daytime snorkeling, you can find a space
• 1:15:17
  along the shoreline and do your snorkel
• 1:15:19
  there. You want both not much impact to
• 1:15:22
  have maybe 10, 20 people in the world.
• 1:15:24
  Okay. When on mental experience, you need
• 1:15:26
  the light to attract the plankton so the
• 1:15:29
  Manneri's come together. And so only to
• 1:15:32
  set that up 100 feet away is really
• 1:15:34
  detrimental to the whole setup. So we
• 1:15:37
  always record the campfire method where
• 1:15:38
  we all meet at the campfire.
• 1:15:41
  And the divers sit around a light box,
• 1:15:43
  you know, the box and as people sitting
• 1:15:45
  around it, that's it on the bottom of the
• 1:15:46
  ocean 30 feet, and they have a light
• 1:15:48
  that's trying to towards the surface. And
• 1:15:50
  then we said also the snorkelers, you
• 1:15:52
  guys come to the campfire as well.
• 1:15:55
  And then you'll be on top. So the idea of
• 1:15:57
  everybody wins, you know, a big
• 1:15:59
  proponent. Everybody wins. Conservation
• 1:16:02
  is about humans win, but more important,
• 1:16:05
  the environment and
• 1:16:06
  the animals win. Right.
• 1:16:07
  That's it's just what my heart always has
• 1:16:09
  been. And that's what I was I'm trying to
• 1:16:12
  always push forward. And when this
• 1:16:13
  interesting time, I mean, for maybe 20
• 1:16:16
  years now, it's like the people are like
• 1:16:17
  not understanding that our species is not
• 1:16:20
  as important, you know, it's like we have
• 1:16:21
  to really step back where we're going is
• 1:16:23
  not working. Right. Anyway, and so when
• 1:16:27
  more companies with snorkelers started to
• 1:16:30
  join the tour business, and they, like I
• 1:16:34
  said earlier, they maybe just said, Oh, I have a daytime product.
• 1:16:36
  To sell, you know, or maybe a sunset to a
• 1:16:40
  business, you know, no, I'm going to add
• 1:16:43
  mannerize to it, you know, and then
• 1:16:45
  suddenly, instead of having eight boats
• 1:16:47
  at the site, that would equal maybe 100
• 1:16:49
  people that you
• 1:16:50
  organize at night on the ocean.
• 1:16:51
  We had 15 boats, 20 boats. Yeah, the
• 1:16:57
  other night, I read a report, and I
• 1:16:59
  actually took a picture of one situation
• 1:17:01
  back in 2013. So it's 12 years ago, there
• 1:17:04
  were 30 boats at the site. It was a
• 1:17:06
  winter night, where this when when the
• 1:17:08
  swell create big waves that crash into
• 1:17:11
  the shoreline. Everything happening was,
• 1:17:15
  I don't know, 4500 people in the water.
• 1:17:18
  Yeah, it was just visually it's like it's
• 1:17:22
  just too many people and too many boats,
• 1:17:25
  too many risks, too many hazards, you
• 1:17:27
  know, and actually then not not just I
• 1:17:30
  mean, there were a lot of complaints
• 1:17:31
  between the groups and you
• 1:17:32
  know, of course, imagine.
• 1:17:33
  We also think about safety for divers to
• 1:17:37
  write 400, 500 people, it's hard to keep
• 1:17:39
  like even for a dive master or a dive
• 1:17:40
  instructor to keep an eye on that many
• 1:17:43
  people when there's so many other people
• 1:17:45
  like people probably running into each
• 1:17:46
  other and so forth, right?
• 1:17:48
  Yeah, and you can do everything right.
• 1:17:50
  And we had since the 90s participant
• 1:17:53
  guidelines, you know, don't touch the
• 1:17:57
  mannerizes a really big one. Of course,
• 1:17:59
  interfere with the animals just that you
• 1:18:00
  eat. Don't touch it, right?
• 1:18:03
  And some other ones and most people just
• 1:18:06
  put followed that as well. But then it
• 1:18:10
  was really important that the operators
• 1:18:12
  get together and create standards as
• 1:18:14
  well. And that was prompted because the
• 1:18:17
  federal government
• 1:18:18
  that's the Coast Guard.
• 1:18:20
  And in our statewide is called Department
• 1:18:24
  of Land and Natural Resources. They
• 1:18:26
  called meeting in 2012. And I said, you
• 1:18:28
  guys, all the stakeholders here in this
• 1:18:30
  meeting, you have to figure out how to do
• 1:18:32
  this right. So we
• 1:18:34
  don't get too many reports.
• 1:18:37
  And then it was mandated, you know, it's
• 1:18:39
  not come up with operator standards. But
• 1:18:42
  unfortunately, they're all still
• 1:18:43
  voluntarily, you know, and we and then
• 1:18:46
  people came together. It was the
• 1:18:48
  beginning of 2013, from January to April,
• 1:18:53
  like a three, four months.
• 1:18:55
  And we created a document and six pages
• 1:18:59
  and it tells you how to do a good manner.
• 1:19:00
  I dive as an operator, including the
• 1:19:02
  participants and stuff like this. Yeah,
• 1:19:04
  sounds all really good, right? But then
• 1:19:06
  when people leave the room, operators,
• 1:19:09
  owners of both companies leave the room,
• 1:19:11
  they said, it's a general agreement.
• 1:19:13
  I'm not a gentleman. Right. Okay. Yeah,
• 1:19:17
  that's when really, it got tricky at the
• 1:19:20
  sites, highly risk, you know, that's why
• 1:19:25
  the downslide happened where it was not
• 1:19:29
  about working together when when it comes
• 1:19:32
  to the place where losing the environment
• 1:19:34
  was losing, mannerize were losing
• 1:19:36
  tourists was losing an
• 1:19:39
  operator, I believe loses too.
• 1:19:41
  But I always think of the tourists then
• 1:19:44
  to it's almost a victimized situation
• 1:19:46
  because you sign up, you know, the first
• 1:19:48
  10 minutes I talked is like the best
• 1:19:50
  thing ever. But at the same time, you are
• 1:19:52
  in a position that you really need to
• 1:19:54
  know who you go with.
• 1:19:56
  Yeah. And that has safety standards. And
• 1:19:58
  again, as you go to the two sides that
• 1:20:00
  are original sites, you can do everything
• 1:20:02
  right and still something goes wrong. So
• 1:20:05
  this is tricky. And everything is
• 1:20:09
  heightened because it's at night, you know, it's not a good thing.
• 1:20:10
  Yeah. So in the past, were there operator
• 1:20:18
  licenses given out for specific for
• 1:20:21
  mannerize? Or was it just because there
• 1:20:22
  were not enough that they didn't have to
• 1:20:24
  worry about? Like there was never enough
• 1:20:25
  to be concerned about it?
• 1:20:27
  Exactly. I just slowly started. And then
• 1:20:30
  there was a phase where the Department of
• 1:20:33
  Land and Natural Resources, short from
• 1:20:35
  the LNR, they had a moratorium on permits
• 1:20:39
  for this particular harbor that most
• 1:20:41
  people most boats and the
• 1:20:42
  farm, it's called Honoka'au.
• 1:20:44
  And the other one is called Ke'auho,
• 1:20:46
  which is even smaller than Honoka'au.
• 1:20:49
  There was a moratorium on permits, but
• 1:20:52
  that was challenged in court. And so
• 1:20:55
  there had to be more permits go out, you
• 1:20:57
  know, and then but you know, Honoka'au
• 1:21:00
  harbor is also an interesting harbor
• 1:21:02
  because the one side of the harbor is the
• 1:21:04
  recreational, ocean recreation
• 1:21:06
  businesses, snorkeling, diving, sunset,
• 1:21:10
  something like this.
• 1:21:11
  Yeah, the other side is the fishing
• 1:21:12
  industry. This in itself, when your
• 1:21:15
  conservation is already crashes, because
• 1:21:17
  this is keeping that fish alive. It's
• 1:21:20
  killer fish, right? But fishing companies
• 1:21:23
  said, I don't make enough of a living on
• 1:21:26
  the fishing tours. It's the manner it is
• 1:21:29
  too, you know, and then you have this in
• 1:21:31
  a mingle of very
• 1:21:33
  different business approaches.
• 1:21:35
  Yeah, all in the mental industry. And
• 1:21:37
  yeah, well, some lot of drama behind the
• 1:21:41
  scenes and that all bubbled
• 1:21:42
  up over the years, you know.
• 1:21:45
  Yeah, I bet you there's a lot. There's
• 1:21:46
  probably a good amount of conflict
• 1:21:48
  between operators now, too, because
• 1:21:50
  there's so many. It's not as calm or is
• 1:21:54
  not as it's probably pretty chaotic when
• 1:21:55
  all those boats get together, you know,
• 1:21:57
  20, 30 boats getting together that that
• 1:21:59
  becomes a little a little worrisome.
• 1:22:01
  Are there any is there any scientists
• 1:22:06
  that are involved in like tracking these
• 1:22:08
  like, are there any like scientific
• 1:22:10
  studies that are being done to track the
• 1:22:13
  increase of the amount of operators and
• 1:22:16
  tour guides as well as the health of of
• 1:22:19
  the stingray or the sorry, manorrhasing?
• 1:22:20
  Yes. So when the state and the federal
• 1:22:25
  government said do something about it.
• 1:22:28
  Someone at the Dylan are actually was our
• 1:22:30
  liaison was a lawyer and she was trying
• 1:22:32
  to also see what we can do with the
• 1:22:34
  operator that volunteer operator
• 1:22:36
  standards and then put it into a whole package.
• 1:22:36
  Because if you really want to tighten
• 1:22:41
  this together, tight this together that
• 1:22:43
  you really have to do it this way, not
• 1:22:44
  just voluntarily. That started in I
• 1:22:47
  believe 2014. And in those following two
• 1:22:51
  years, I was involved to a role package
• 1:22:53
  was created. One of the things we said we
• 1:22:56
  have to do the campfire method. It
• 1:22:58
  doesn't matter how you call it. Let's
• 1:22:59
  call it a central viewing area, right?
• 1:23:01
  Yeah, it can fire. Most people can maybe
• 1:23:04
  envision this a little bit, but that sits
• 1:23:08
  in the desks of someone or is being moved
• 1:23:12
  to the next person because that first
• 1:23:14
  lawyer then also she had a child and
• 1:23:17
  moved on. Then the next lawyer came in
• 1:23:19
  had to be come up to speed. Time goes by.
• 1:23:21
  Eventually, you were at the pandemic. Nothing happened there. And then in 2022, a crew member was killed. Oh, wow. Where it was due to the captain being intoxicated, you know, and it's a whole different story. But I feel so bad for everybody involved. You know, of course, now that I'm so critical and speaking about it here on this podcast, I just want people to understand the behind the scenes of the
• 1:23:51
  stuff too, right? This is not all good
• 1:23:55
  here, right? No, and in this case, it got
• 1:23:58
  really, really bad, you know, and that's
• 1:24:01
  when the LNR kind of said, Okay, we have
• 1:24:03
  to move forward. That rule package that
• 1:24:05
  lays around for a long time, the drafts.
• 1:24:08
  And there was a little movement that was
• 1:24:10
  actually a public hearing. I think it's
• 1:24:11
  now two years old that the last public
• 1:24:13
  hearing took place. Yeah, nothing
• 1:24:16
  happened. I think there's maybe something
• 1:24:18
  behind in the legislator,
• 1:24:19
  they need to have some law.
• 1:24:21
  And I think that the laws changed. So the
• 1:24:22
  day on earth's hands are really tight to
• 1:24:24
  do certain right it right it up. But that
• 1:24:28
  doesn't help anybody. I mean, the win win
• 1:24:30
  is lost. More and more loose is in the
• 1:24:34
  situation. And I believe still people
• 1:24:36
  today can have a really good mental
• 1:24:37
  experience. But it's diminished. And I
• 1:24:42
  wish I wish to move forward with this
• 1:24:44
  whole process of regulating the industry.
• 1:24:48
  I mean, obviously, it sounds like
• 1:24:49
  regulation needs to be done on all
• 1:24:50
  fronts, not just on on the man array
• 1:24:53
  fronts, but also on the safety, not only
• 1:24:55
  for the crew, but also for the tourists.
• 1:24:58
  You know, you don't you don't want to
• 1:24:59
  ever see anybody getting hurt, God
• 1:25:02
  forbid, you know, passing away, just like
• 1:25:03
  we saw, just like you just let us know.
• 1:25:06
  And that's not how this this is supposed
• 1:25:07
  to go. And obviously, accidents happen
• 1:25:09
  and they're, you know, from whoever's
• 1:25:11
  mistake, but you want to make sure that
• 1:25:14
  that doesn't happen. And there's
• 1:25:16
  regulations to do that to protect people
• 1:25:18
  from that, especially tourists, as you as
• 1:25:21
  you say, like, you know, people are going
• 1:25:22
  to Hawaii, they want to
• 1:25:23
  get in touch with nature.
• 1:25:25
  And so it's a perfect place to do it. You
• 1:25:27
  know, they hear about these man array
• 1:25:29
  dives, you know, when people go diving or
• 1:25:32
  snorkeling, that's what they're there to
• 1:25:33
  do. That's what they want to do. And they
• 1:25:35
  don't want to be taken for not
• 1:25:37
  necessarily money without seeing it, but
• 1:25:39
  also just having, you know, a couple
• 1:25:41
  hundred people there.
• 1:25:42
  And so you're not getting that same
• 1:25:43
  experience as you know, you were told and
• 1:25:45
  stuff. And so you want to make sure that
• 1:25:47
  you're, you know, there should be limits
• 1:25:49
  on the number of people that
• 1:25:50
  are out of time and all this.
• 1:25:53
  So, so how would you recommend this
• 1:25:59
  regulation be pushed
• 1:26:01
  forward from a policy standpoint?
• 1:26:06
  Someone contacted me that was a student
• 1:26:08
  from the University of Hawaii, a law
• 1:26:12
  student, and she said, Earth Justice was
• 1:26:15
  looking at maybe doing something. I'm not
• 1:26:17
  sure how far it went to Earth Justice,
• 1:26:19
  but I guess a professor was involved.
• 1:26:21
  They were trying to do something that as
• 1:26:23
  a lawsuit against the state of Hawaii
• 1:26:25
  based on safety of the public. Right. And
• 1:26:28
  of course, I had lots of information
• 1:26:30
  because if you if you talk to me about
• 1:26:32
  man race and everything that's involved
• 1:26:34
  in it, it's like pushing a button.
• 1:26:35
  I have so much information and I really
• 1:26:39
  like to disseminate that information to
• 1:26:41
  write people. So things could happen, you
• 1:26:43
  know. So in this particular lawsuit, she
• 1:26:46
  set up a framework, what could be done.
• 1:26:48
  And then I didn't hear from her again.
• 1:26:51
  So that could be one venue that the state
• 1:26:52
  of Hawaii is being put on notice. And,
• 1:26:55
  you know, interesting enough that nobody
• 1:26:56
  remembers that. Most
• 1:26:57
  people just don't remember that.
• 1:26:59
  The House of Representatives for the
• 1:27:00
  state of Hawaii in 2013 had a resolution
• 1:27:03
  where it already said this is a dangerous
• 1:27:06
  place. You can look it up
• 1:27:08
  on our nonprofit website.
• 1:27:11
  I tried to put the nonprofit website into
• 1:27:13
  a place where it's like telling a history
• 1:27:15
  of what happened already. You know,
• 1:27:17
  earlier, were there any studies being
• 1:27:19
  done? There has been risk assessments.
• 1:27:21
  The risk assessment said it's not just a
• 1:27:24
  matter of if something happens, it's when
• 1:27:25
  something happens when. Yeah. Yeah. More
• 1:27:28
  studies have been done in 2020. A really
• 1:27:30
  nice lady, Kirsten Moy. She did an
• 1:27:33
  incredible extensive interviews of
• 1:27:35
  stakeholders and put together a study.
• 1:27:39
  It's all done. You know, it's just a
• 1:27:41
  matter of making that push forward. But
• 1:27:44
  maybe people do other things right now
• 1:27:48
  because the world is so crazy in the first place.
• 1:27:51
  Right. But I feel like for the men race
• 1:27:54
  and for us as humans to come back to
• 1:27:57
  nature, it's one of the most important
• 1:27:59
  things, you know, for 10 years, we have
• 1:28:01
  now all our phones and more generations
• 1:28:04
  are coming up with more phone usage.
• 1:28:06
  And, you know, it's this I think in
• 1:28:08
  English you say that, you know, once in a
• 1:28:10
  while touch grass, right? Just go outside
• 1:28:12
  and touch the grass, you know. And of
• 1:28:14
  course, when you do the men or
• 1:28:15
  experience, it's something really special
• 1:28:18
  because at night, big food,
• 1:28:20
  night, big fish, harmless and I said
• 1:28:23
  earlier, you know, from within 40 30 to
• 1:28:25
  45 minutes. Actually, you mentioned it
• 1:28:28
  also to you have preconceived ideas can
• 1:28:30
  only be bad what's out there. And then
• 1:28:32
  you come out of the world. You can like,
• 1:28:34
  that's the best thing I've ever done in
• 1:28:35
  my life. So yeah, I get these people
• 1:28:37
  closer back to nature and make better
• 1:28:40
  decisions for your future and future of
• 1:28:43
  your kids and everything where we can
• 1:28:46
  keep the environment
• 1:28:47
  intact and keep the memories.
• 1:28:50
  Going for another, I don't know how many
• 1:28:52
  millions of years, right? Yeah, they're
• 1:28:54
  vulnerable because men race have a very
• 1:28:57
  slow reproductive rate, you know, it
• 1:29:00
  takes 30 12 to 13 months to have one pop,
• 1:29:03
  you know, it's 10 to 15 years to be
• 1:29:05
  section mature, one pop at a time, you
• 1:29:08
  know, and males have to go around every
• 1:29:11
  two or four years and maybe have a have a
• 1:29:13
  pop, you know, there's, you, it's a
• 1:29:16
  species where we have
• 1:29:16
  to be very careful about.
• 1:29:19
  So, yeah, and I mean, like we, you know,
• 1:29:22
  we've been focusing a lot on the tour
• 1:29:24
  operations itself and people not having a
• 1:29:26
  good time or being too chaotic, but we
• 1:29:28
  do, you know, the main thing, the reason
• 1:29:30
  why everybody's there is for these manner
• 1:29:32
  race and, and, and for the point that
• 1:29:34
  there, even though the foods there,
• 1:29:36
  eventually, the manorize may not want to
• 1:29:38
  come back because it's too chaotic, maybe
• 1:29:40
  they're not, you know, even though
• 1:29:41
  they're used to people, they may go
• 1:29:42
  decide going somewhere
• 1:29:43
  else, they may get hurt.
• 1:29:45
  And, you know, propeller, you know,
• 1:29:47
  accidents happen, not to say that
• 1:29:48
  anybody's doing it on purpose, but when
• 1:29:50
  you have that many people in one area,
• 1:29:52
  things can happen to the manorize as
• 1:29:53
  well. And if you, you know, if you damage
• 1:29:55
  them more, and they, you know, they don't
• 1:29:57
  survive, then that could be a big problem
• 1:30:00
  in the future, not only for the business,
• 1:30:01
  but just for the manorize
• 1:30:02
  themselves and their conservation.
• 1:30:04
  Now you, you have this, you know, you
• 1:30:06
  have Manor a advocates as a for profit
• 1:30:08
  business, and then you started a
• 1:30:11
  nonprofit business called Hawaii Ocean
• 1:30:14
  Watch. Now, was it because of what you
• 1:30:16
  were seeing the growth, the slow growth,
• 1:30:20
  or even just where, where the industry is
• 1:30:22
  at today in terms of tour operators and
• 1:30:24
  manner race? Or was it other things that
• 1:30:26
  were involved as well?
• 1:30:29
  Yeah, so I'm gonna put a little bit of my
• 1:30:30
  business cap now, because at the same
• 1:30:32
  time as a top or your business person,
• 1:30:34
  right? Of course. Yeah. And especially if
• 1:30:36
  in such a unique niche for a tour
• 1:30:39
  operator, you know, it's like, I only
• 1:30:42
  have one product, it's looking at
• 1:30:44
  mannerize, you know. Yeah.
• 1:30:45
  So, so the Hawaii Ocean Watch was formed
• 1:30:51
  in 2015. Remember, I said 2012, the state
• 1:30:55
  and effect said, Hey, come up with some,
• 1:30:57
  some voluntary standards, you know, abide
• 1:31:01
  by them. And we as a group as a camera
• 1:31:03
  program, at that point, I had my husband,
• 1:31:05
  myself and someone else filming almost
• 1:31:07
  every night on these
• 1:31:08
  two locations that we had.
• 1:31:09
  And we saw what the operators were doing,
• 1:31:12
  we could say, Hey, we've jokingly started
• 1:31:15
  out, we said, we should make a blacklist
• 1:31:17
  of the people that are not doing what the
• 1:31:19
  operators said, but of course, from a
• 1:31:22
  branding point, it's much better, much
• 1:31:24
  better if you say, let's create a green
• 1:31:26
  list of the folks
• 1:31:27
  that do the right thing.
• 1:31:27
  Yes. Right. Yeah. And so while we were
• 1:31:31
  branded to Manner Advocates, it was the
• 1:31:33
  effort of like, we're gonna brand this
• 1:31:35
  green list of activity providers under
• 1:31:36
  the Manner Advocates, you know, all
• 1:31:38
  within the same year. But it was
• 1:31:42
  straining us as business a lot, you know,
• 1:31:45
  we were doing so many things for the
• 1:31:47
  nonprofit work, where the for profit
• 1:31:49
  company just, I was just, I mean, really
• 1:31:53
  financially diet, of course, you know,
• 1:31:55
  health issues, all kinds of things happening.
• 1:31:56
  And for us, as a solution was like, we
• 1:32:00
  have to bring this green list to a
• 1:32:02
  nonprofit concept, you know, and what
• 1:32:05
  does it mean? Well, you sign up for
• 1:32:07
  501c3. That's, of course, lots of
• 1:32:09
  paperwork, but you mentioned all kinds of
• 1:32:12
  things to do. But we felt like the green
• 1:32:15
  list of activity providers had a much
• 1:32:16
  better place on the nonprofit level.
• 1:32:17
  So we could separate those two
• 1:32:21
  businesses. And the green list lived
• 1:32:25
  there for a long time, and it's still
• 1:32:27
  there. But for the longest time, I was
• 1:32:31
  comfortable saying these companies trying
• 1:32:33
  the best and abide by those, adhere to
• 1:32:36
  those voluntary standards. But it's about
• 1:32:38
  two years now that I took it down while you still find the page.
• 1:32:40
  Yeah, I came up with five questions. I'm
• 1:32:46
  saying, asked five questions when you
• 1:32:48
  sign up because we're good heart, good
• 1:32:51
  conscious, I cannot say anymore who's
• 1:32:54
  doing the right things. Not that they
• 1:32:56
  don't want to do it. But with 60
• 1:32:58
  operators, it's a jungle for the customer
• 1:33:00
  to find the right company. Right.
• 1:33:01
  And I got some feedback, I think, you
• 1:33:07
  know, also from the web links that you
• 1:33:09
  have to the green list, I didn't want to
• 1:33:10
  lose them was a good solution, I believe,
• 1:33:14
  still trying to help the customer coming
• 1:33:17
  to the islands. And we have guests quite
• 1:33:19
  often that say I came on to the big
• 1:33:21
  island only for the manner is, you know,
• 1:33:24
  it hurts me hurts my heart if I hear
• 1:33:26
  that, and they would not be able to get
• 1:33:29
  the best out of this, you know, of course, because I think that's a good solution.
• 1:33:30
  You know, of course, because I know how
• 1:33:31
  good of an experience it can be for
• 1:33:34
  people and how people see the world
• 1:33:36
  actually differently afterwards, you
• 1:33:37
  know, in their life, maybe. So yeah, I
• 1:33:40
  just maybe tell you a quick
• 1:33:42
  story. I will have a lady.
• 1:33:44
  She came to me years ago, and she was
• 1:33:46
  super nervous when she was going into the
• 1:33:48
  water. And maybe you can see that but I
• 1:33:50
  have this necklace with a manor on it.
• 1:33:53
  Yeah. And it took place. She succeeded
• 1:33:57
  was a great night. And then later I get
• 1:33:59
  an email and she said, you know what,
• 1:34:01
  this mental experience was so impactful
• 1:34:05
  on me, I bought myself
• 1:34:06
  also a manor necklace.
• 1:34:08
  And because she felt so much courage
• 1:34:10
  afterwards, what you can accomplish,
• 1:34:12
  although she had so much anxiety before
• 1:34:14
  or intimidation before accomplishment
• 1:34:17
  after she said whenever she has today a
• 1:34:19
  bad experience, or she's nervous about
• 1:34:21
  some, she doesn't know what's going on.
• 1:34:23
  She touches a manor a and knows you can
• 1:34:25
  do it. And I mean, I'm always like
• 1:34:28
  choking up here, but this is the work
• 1:34:30
  that can be done through nature
• 1:34:32
  experiences where people carry themselves
• 1:34:35
  differently afterwards.
• 1:34:37
  And I have lots of stories like that, you
• 1:34:40
  know, but of course, these stories stick
• 1:34:43
  with me. And I wish that for so many
• 1:34:45
  people, I wish I could tell everybody a
• 1:34:47
  show man everybody the manners, but
• 1:34:49
  obviously, it's not working, you know, to
• 1:34:51
  write only three locations on the
• 1:34:55
  coastline and there's a limit of how many
• 1:34:57
  people you can have in a
• 1:34:58
  space at night in the ocean.
• 1:35:00
  And yeah, so that's really interesting.
• 1:35:05
  Now, I just want to go over some of the
• 1:35:06
  questions that people can ask because
• 1:35:08
  some of the people here that are in our
• 1:35:09
  audience, you know, they want to, they
• 1:35:12
  probably want to participate in something
• 1:35:14
  like this, but they want to make sure
• 1:35:15
  they're getting the right to operator.
• 1:35:17
  So maybe we can go through each of the
• 1:35:18
  questions. So the first one was, which
• 1:35:19
  man of viewing site do you go to? So
• 1:35:22
  which is the better one? And which is the
• 1:35:23
  ones that are less safe,
• 1:35:25
  I guess, or more unsafe?
• 1:35:26
  So it's three locations on the coastline.
• 1:35:30
  The southern one is in the me say south,
• 1:35:34
  it's really when you look at the map,
• 1:35:35
  it's south, it's called a mental village.
• 1:35:37
  It's in care home. It's spelling is
• 1:35:41
  Hawaiian spelling. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:35:42
  The other one is by the airport, which is
• 1:35:47
  the corner airport, and it's called
• 1:35:49
  mental heaven. It's a nickname, you know,
• 1:35:52
  so yeah. And then the third location is
• 1:35:55
  further north, it's called mentor point.
• 1:35:57
  But the access to that from from the
• 1:35:59
  shoreline is private, you would take the
• 1:36:02
  only three boat companies that can work
• 1:36:04
  up there because they are limited by by
• 1:36:07
  permits up there to you know, so.
• 1:36:08
  So that would be the coastline. When you
• 1:36:14
  think of safety, I think dive companies
• 1:36:18
  still have the safest record versus
• 1:36:21
  companies that solely do snorkeling. And
• 1:36:24
  I say that as that companies have to have
• 1:36:28
  dive masters, they are professionals, and
• 1:36:30
  they have better training versus a
• 1:36:32
  company that only does snorkeling. And I
• 1:36:35
  don't want to say anything about it.
• 1:36:37
  Say anything about anybody right now. I'm
• 1:36:39
  just, in general, it's a transient
• 1:36:41
  workforce. People come here to live their
• 1:36:44
  dream, come here for six months and maybe
• 1:36:47
  then they leave because they cannot make
• 1:36:49
  it an expensive place to live. Yeah. So
• 1:36:51
  it's hard to build expertise in that
• 1:36:53
  experience, right? Over time, as you have
• 1:36:56
  like your outfit, probably like 20 some
• 1:36:57
  odd years, you know.
• 1:36:59
  Yeah, yeah, I drill down on my crew and
• 1:37:02
  what's really important, you know, so I
• 1:37:05
  train them well. Now, on the so when
• 1:37:10
  people asked, so what should I choose? If
• 1:37:13
  you Google, mentor experience and then
• 1:37:16
  dive store, you know, I think you would
• 1:37:18
  find companies that just have more
• 1:37:22
  trained crew versus someone who doesn't.
• 1:37:25
  For sure. For sure. Of course, as always,
• 1:37:28
  someone who could say, yeah, this company
• 1:37:29
  or this company, but you know, I think
• 1:37:31
  that's a general rule. Yeah, most people
• 1:37:33
  just don't know much about an ocean
• 1:37:35
  recreation industry. Of course. Yeah, no,
• 1:37:39
  that definitely makes sense.
• 1:37:40
  All right. The second question is, does
• 1:37:42
  the boat stay at the site or if and if
• 1:37:43
  so, how? So why is that important to know
• 1:37:46
  how they stay at the site?
• 1:37:47
  Yeah, so boats just to create this lit up
• 1:37:52
  area, you know, the boats are supposed to
• 1:37:55
  stay where they park and so the people
• 1:37:58
  get into the water and out of the water
• 1:38:00
  and your guide would always know where
• 1:38:01
  the boat is. That's the ideal situation.
• 1:38:05
  And on this coastline, we have mooring
• 1:38:08
  system. A mooring ball is we, well, I say
• 1:38:13
  we, but the coastline is set up with
• 1:38:15
  subsurface mooring balls. It's actually a
• 1:38:16
  big buoy, right? As a chain that goes
• 1:38:20
  down to the bottom of the ocean and on
• 1:38:22
  the top of the buoy is a little hole like
• 1:38:24
  an eye. And so when a boat captain drives
• 1:38:26
  the boat up to that mooring, you would as
• 1:38:29
  a crew, you jump in and you tie up the
• 1:38:31
  boat through that eye. Yeah, that's just
• 1:38:33
  the best situation because the mooring
• 1:38:35
  ball holds the boat in place. Engines are
• 1:38:37
  off. You don't have to worry about much
• 1:38:39
  other than as a captain, you have to
• 1:38:40
  watch for the winds, how you swim. Of
• 1:38:43
  course. Yeah. And the, it's a good thing.
• 1:38:45
  And the activity by in Ke'ahu,
• 1:38:48
  unfortunately, I have only four moorings.
• 1:38:51
  That's one of the things that we tell the
• 1:38:52
  state we need more parking spots, you
• 1:38:54
  know, parking safe parking. And I believe
• 1:38:57
  the airport location
• 1:38:59
  has maybe seven to nine.
• 1:39:01
  Okay. Well, what are we, when you think
• 1:39:03
  of the boat night when 20 boats go out,
• 1:39:05
  what do they do, right? Some people do
• 1:39:07
  daisy chaining. So one boat pies up to
• 1:39:09
  the mooring and the other one daisy
• 1:39:10
  chains. So I guess I have to save two.
• 1:39:13
  But then another boat that drop anchor,
• 1:39:15
  you sure hope that that drop on sand
• 1:39:17
  versus on coral. But that's another story
• 1:39:19
  I could go down to. And worst case
• 1:39:22
  scenario is a boat that life boats, a
• 1:39:26
  vessel that never turns the engine off
• 1:39:28
  and drops the people off.
• 1:39:30
  And then you do the tour with your guide
• 1:39:33
  and the boats is somewhere in the dark
• 1:39:35
  and watches for your guide and comes back
• 1:39:38
  and picks you up. And you really hope
• 1:39:43
  that the captain knows what he's doing.
• 1:39:45
  Yeah. Yeah. Because that night, right?
• 1:39:50
  That's also a dangerous
• 1:39:51
  situation when it's at night.
• 1:39:53
  If you look at the risk assessment on
• 1:39:56
  Hawaii ocean watch, you could see all the
• 1:39:58
  studies I have extra page there for the
• 1:40:00
  studies. The risk assessment said one of
• 1:40:02
  the biggest concerns is the live boating,
• 1:40:05
  you know, because it takes place at night
• 1:40:07
  and you cannot see the vessel. See,
• 1:40:09
  you're not supposed to have lights on on
• 1:40:11
  the vessel to in the sense of like, I
• 1:40:13
  mean, you have some
• 1:40:13
  lights on the top there, red,
• 1:40:14
  red light, red, white lights, but that's
• 1:40:17
  just where they are stationed. But you're
• 1:40:20
  not supposed to have deck lights on
• 1:40:21
  because when you have deck lights on, you
• 1:40:23
  actually attract plankton around your
• 1:40:25
  boat, but you're supposed to get the
• 1:40:26
  viewing area. You know, so it's a dark
• 1:40:29
  vessel somewhere around and you are maybe
• 1:40:32
  100 yards away. And unfortunately, having
• 1:40:36
  so many customers joining this tool now,
• 1:40:40
  a lot of people that are not skilled enough, they're not skilled enough.
• 1:40:44
  For the ocean in the first place. Yeah. I
• 1:40:47
  get customer calls regularly and it's
• 1:40:49
  like, Hey, I don't know how to swim. Can
• 1:40:51
  I join? Oh, dear. Oh, no. No.
• 1:40:56
  Let's want to stay on the surprise. So on
• 1:40:59
  a minimum age, you know, people sign me.
• 1:41:02
  My five and seven year old, they're
• 1:41:03
  really good in the ocean. I'm like, yeah,
• 1:41:05
  probably during the day. I could believe
• 1:41:07
  that, you know, or I had one. They're
• 1:41:10
  selling a really good sailors.
• 1:41:12
  Yeah, but I'm in the ocean at night. And
• 1:41:14
  this big fish, I think of maturity, how
• 1:41:19
  to comprehend everything, because I'm not
• 1:41:21
  in a business to traumatize young minds.
• 1:41:24
  And I say that because I had older
• 1:41:26
  customers over the years that say, Hey, I
• 1:41:28
  had bad experience with water when I was
• 1:41:29
  young. And I never went back to the ocean
• 1:41:32
  because they saw something maybe the pool
• 1:41:35
  or I don't know what they experienced.
• 1:41:37
  But I just say for me, my personal
• 1:41:41
  business has 12 year old. I try to use 10
• 1:41:44
  year old children use, but let them
• 1:41:46
  participate. But we had meltdowns, crying
• 1:41:49
  kids. Nobody wins here. Right. So I said
• 1:41:52
  to 12 years and stuff like this is just
• 1:41:55
  to consider when you do the tour. Yeah,
• 1:41:58
  for sure. Yeah, that's something you
• 1:42:00
  definitely definitely have to consider.
• 1:42:02
  Now, the fourth question is, oh,
• 1:42:05
  actually, no, third question is what is
• 1:42:06
  the ratio of crew to guess on the tour?
• 1:42:11
  Well, if you're lucky, it's one to six
• 1:42:13
  dive mass. So let's diving. It's usually
• 1:42:17
  one to six. Yeah. Okay.
• 1:42:21
  It's not going on. Most companies, I
• 1:42:23
  believe have one to 10. And my company's
• 1:42:27
  one to six. You know, so I feel like the
• 1:42:33
  lower it is, the better for the customer
• 1:42:35
  for personalized
• 1:42:36
  attention. Yeah, for sure.
• 1:42:38
  Yeah. One of the things like and that's
• 1:42:41
  the max you want, right? I do want to
• 1:42:44
  six, sometimes one to seven, but I always
• 1:42:46
  have a swim guide that has been
• 1:42:49
  professionally, I mean, definitely they
• 1:42:51
  have lifeguard training and most of them
• 1:42:52
  have dive master on certified. Yeah, but
• 1:42:56
  I'm pretty rigorous on the training. I
• 1:42:59
  don't know about other folks. I would
• 1:43:00
  think that it's a business.
• 1:43:02
  You should do that too. But
• 1:43:06
  yeah, I want to mention one more thing
• 1:43:09
  while we're on this with what I don't
• 1:43:14
  allow is the full face masks. Are you
• 1:43:16
  familiar with those full face masks?
• 1:43:18
  Full and then they've got the snorkel
• 1:43:20
  thing out here. Yeah, I heard it's not
• 1:43:22
  good in like open ocean in situation
• 1:43:24
  because it's too fast of breathing. Is
• 1:43:26
  that it? Yeah, if you breathe shallow co2
• 1:43:29
  buildup, you know, and then you could get
• 1:43:31
  a headache and you may be
• 1:43:33
  further away from shore.
• 1:43:33
  And then you'd like, okay, I have a
• 1:43:35
  headache. How do I get back? Yeah, all
• 1:43:37
  kinds of things. That's just another good
• 1:43:38
  idea. But as a guide, I tell you that
• 1:43:40
  just as a guide, I don't know what people
• 1:43:41
  tell me. They're just mumbling is like,
• 1:43:44
  oh, right. I don't know. So I tried that
• 1:43:48
  too for a while and that people use a
• 1:43:50
  full face mask. But then you come to two
• 1:43:53
  or three situations where it's just a
• 1:43:55
  borderline. And then I just created
• 1:43:58
  policies like, yeah, of
• 1:44:00
  course, you can join us.
• 1:44:02
  We have the gear for you. But please no
• 1:44:06
  full face masks. And it definitely makes
• 1:44:08
  sense. Because especially in an emergency
• 1:44:10
  situation, you want to be able to hear
• 1:44:12
  that person like that. You don't want to
• 1:44:13
  have to like, what did you say? Like you
• 1:44:15
  don't have to repeat it because you might
• 1:44:17
  have to make a split second decision. And
• 1:44:18
  you know, it's it's if you can't hear the
• 1:44:21
  person, then that's obviously, obviously
• 1:44:24
  a problem. Right? Yeah. The fourth
• 1:44:27
  question here, I think you already
• 1:44:28
  answered it is how experienced is the
• 1:44:30
  crew obviously experience and training.
• 1:44:31
  Experience and training is going to be
• 1:44:33
  something that's really important. Dive
• 1:44:35
  master is one thing, but also experience
• 1:44:38
  in diving in these
• 1:44:40
  types of situations, right?
• 1:44:43
  Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's one
• 1:44:44
  of the questions you could ask when you
• 1:44:46
  sign up for it too is like, you know, how
• 1:44:48
  is the crew? Is it is a two year old crew
• 1:44:51
  or, you know, could I have someone who is
• 1:44:53
  already doing it for longer versus could
• 1:44:56
  I sign up on a day where, you know, every
• 1:44:58
  crew has schedules and stuff like this, you know,
• 1:44:59
  you can ask questions like this. But I've
• 1:45:03
  been in a situation when I used to sell
• 1:45:05
  my videos. So it's maybe 10 12 years ago,
• 1:45:07
  and there was at the harbor, you know, I
• 1:45:10
  was setting up my TV to show the videos
• 1:45:12
  to the people to make myself but the
• 1:45:14
  other end of the harbor was the wash down
• 1:45:17
  area of the boats. And as one night, this
• 1:45:19
  guy comes over, and I didn't know him,
• 1:45:21
  he's like, Oh, I just, you know, I got
• 1:45:22
  off the airplane two days ago, and now
• 1:45:24
  I'm a crew member on this boat. Okay. I mean, it's not that I'm not a crew member.
• 1:45:27
  Okay. I mean, that happens. I mean, yeah.
• 1:45:32
  That's why I can say I know that there is
• 1:45:35
  a big, big difference on what you can
• 1:45:38
  experience. Right. And I want to visit
• 1:45:40
  that I want the tourists to demand good
• 1:45:42
  people. You know, it's like, just slide
• 1:45:44
  it by. So, yeah, especially like, I mean,
• 1:45:47
  I think this is, and this goes for any
• 1:45:49
  kind of scuba diving outfit, really, if
• 1:45:51
  you're just scuba diving during the day
• 1:45:52
  or at night, you want to make sure that
• 1:45:54
  the people you're diving with are
• 1:45:55
  experienced, they have,
• 1:45:57
  you know, a lot of people are
• 1:45:57
  not only the training and the
• 1:45:59
  certification, but they also have
• 1:46:01
  familiarity with the area, especially on
• 1:46:05
  a night dive, having experience on for a
• 1:46:09
  number of years, 10 plus years, 510 plus
• 1:46:11
  years. And again, the area and the animal
• 1:46:15
  that you're diving with and whatever else
• 1:46:17
  can come around, because this is an
• 1:46:18
  ocean, it's not as if it's just man rays
• 1:46:21
  that are coming around, you have to be
• 1:46:22
  able to calm people down in the ocean who
• 1:46:25
  are a little nervous at the
• 1:46:26
  beginning and at the bottom.
• 1:46:27
  There's no room for error at that point.
• 1:46:30
  And although it's, you know, I'm sure
• 1:46:31
  it's safe, you know, like ninety nine
• 1:46:34
  point nine, nine, nine, nine percent of
• 1:46:35
  the time. But you want to have that
• 1:46:37
  experience to be there just in case.
• 1:46:40
  And so that you can get out of it and
• 1:46:41
  just be like, I'm so happy that we had
• 1:46:43
  this person here because they could they
• 1:46:45
  could help out. I think that's that's a
• 1:46:46
  really important factor. That should be
• 1:46:48
  for any diving, even
• 1:46:49
  snorkeling. I think you're right.
• 1:46:51
  I think I never thought about it's like,
• 1:46:52
  you know, sometimes you get caught up in
• 1:46:54
  a current, you don't realize it. And,
• 1:46:56
  and, you know, you need someone to help
• 1:46:57
  you, you know, you never know. Right. So
• 1:46:59
  it's definitely important. Now, now this
• 1:47:02
  is just it's a really, we are in a really
• 1:47:05
  serious business again. Yeah, business
• 1:47:08
  person. I'm in a serious business. And I
• 1:47:11
  tried to be in the much nicest way I can
• 1:47:14
  actually as a German
• 1:47:15
  sometimes like very direct.
• 1:47:17
  I'm like, no, we can't do it this way.
• 1:47:23
  Like what the customer wants for me, you
• 1:47:25
  know, right? I mean, we have these really
• 1:47:27
  with February, you know, we have really
• 1:47:29
  rough ocean right now. The waves are like
• 1:47:30
  four to five feet height when they come
• 1:47:33
  into the beach. Yeah, you cannot go
• 1:47:35
  through four to five feet height at night
• 1:47:38
  to go into the water. But then you have
• 1:47:41
  these customers and they get a little
• 1:47:43
  antsy on with you on the phone. And I'm just like, that's what I'm doing.
• 1:47:46
  And just like, that's a person that is
• 1:47:47
  disconnected. It's just about what I as a
• 1:47:50
  species can get out of it. And I wish
• 1:47:52
  that people that we really turn the page
• 1:47:56
  sooner than later, that look through the
• 1:48:00
  lens of the environment, sustainability,
• 1:48:04
  what is the animal experience, safety,
• 1:48:08
  everything, you know, just
• 1:48:09
  not so what do I get out of it.
• 1:48:12
  And then if I don't get it, be not very
• 1:48:15
  nice, you know, and I'm always happy to
• 1:48:18
  educate people because it's a specialized
• 1:48:20
  field, you know, but sometimes you really
• 1:48:23
  think like, common sense, you know.
• 1:48:27
  Well, for sure. I mean, there are like
• 1:48:30
  you said, like until after the dive, when
• 1:48:33
  they see it happen, obviously, they're a
• 1:48:35
  lot more connected and they understand
• 1:48:37
  the beauty. But sometimes the fact that
• 1:48:40
  they're out doing it, they just think
• 1:48:41
  that they can do it whenever.
• 1:48:43
  And that's obviously, there's a season
• 1:48:45
  for it. There's a reason there's a season
• 1:48:46
  for it. The ocean can be can be
• 1:48:50
  dangerous. It can be wavy. It can be, you
• 1:48:53
  know, you have to respect it. And so if
• 1:48:54
  it's, you know, if you're not offering at
• 1:48:56
  a time because of the
• 1:48:57
  seas, don't question it.
• 1:48:59
  Just be like, you'll come back another
• 1:49:00
  time and come back during that season.
• 1:49:01
  Because I think that's, that's really
• 1:49:03
  important. This last question here is,
• 1:49:05
  what are your cutoff
• 1:49:06
  criteria for canceling?
• 1:49:08
  We kind of just talked about it in terms
• 1:49:10
  of like wave advisories and things like
• 1:49:12
  that. Why is that important? Obviously,
• 1:49:16
  common sense. But why is that important
• 1:49:18
  for other criteria? And what is that
• 1:49:21
  criteria for like cutting? I assume
• 1:49:23
  cutting off means we're not
• 1:49:24
  going out. Is that what it is?
• 1:49:25
  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I call people I say
• 1:49:29
  I'm not going. And so if I look at the
• 1:49:31
  forecast, so they're really good tools
• 1:49:33
  today to see what's happening. So my
• 1:49:35
  particular location up on the northern
• 1:49:37
  part of the island is there's a webcam
• 1:49:40
  and there is a website. I mean, there are
• 1:49:43
  many websites with surf forecasts.
• 1:49:44
  I use surfline.com and in particular on
• 1:49:48
  this particular bay and the buoys
• 1:49:51
  somewhere in the Pacific Ocean, they
• 1:49:53
  detect as swells, you know, how the
• 1:49:57
  swells are created because of somewhere
• 1:50:00
  tropical storm, they create swells.
• 1:50:03
  When these swells crash against the
• 1:50:06
  shoreline, they then we have the waves,
• 1:50:08
  right? And interesting enough, I have to
• 1:50:10
  look at the many years I've been here in
• 1:50:14
  the winters, we used to have a swell and
• 1:50:17
  then a little break in the winter and
• 1:50:19
  then another swell, really big ones,
• 1:50:22
  smaller ones. But this year, I haven't
• 1:50:25
  worked since January 3. You know, and the
• 1:50:28
  forecast tells me right now, I have a 16
• 1:50:30
  day forecast that I probably can resume
• 1:50:31
  business on March 5.
• 1:50:33
  Because one swell after another, one
• 1:50:37
  tropical storm after another was
• 1:50:39
  generated somewhere in the Pacific.
• 1:50:41
  Hawaii has a lot of water around us. I
• 1:50:42
  trust on that one. When you fly here, you
• 1:50:45
  fly six hours over water, right? So when
• 1:50:49
  so many storms were just generating the
• 1:50:51
  swells and then the waves crashing into
• 1:50:53
  the shoreline. And so I have a forecast
• 1:50:55
  of that. And if I see this week, for
• 1:50:58
  example, I will not work all week. I call
• 1:50:59
  the customs two or three days ahead of time and say, it's not that long.
• 1:51:01
  I say it's not going to happen. Use your
• 1:51:03
  vacation time differently. Right. So
• 1:51:06
  that's one of the things. But even when
• 1:51:08
  we get to the point, the swells are not
• 1:51:10
  as big as in waters, the waves have
• 1:51:12
  calmed down. I still need about 48 hours
• 1:51:14
  before I resume for two reasons. First of
• 1:51:17
  all, this this bay is sandy, you know, so
• 1:51:21
  the sand is all stirred up, you know, you
• 1:51:23
  have all that there's no visibility. You
• 1:51:25
  want to go into the
• 1:51:26
  Pacific. It makes a difference.
• 1:51:27
  It's like you want to see something
• 1:51:29
  right. And you would not see anything. So
• 1:51:32
  I need time and we need the ocean to
• 1:51:34
  settle the sediment, you know, and I also
• 1:51:36
  need mannerize when I do my tools.
• 1:51:39
  People come to see mannerize and they
• 1:51:41
  leave the area for a while. And hopefully
• 1:51:44
  they come back. I never know that it's an
• 1:51:45
  experience, but we're very fortunate over
• 1:51:48
  the years. I can say the manner is
• 1:51:49
  somehow always come back. Maybe a new
• 1:51:51
  animal comes in, new manner.
• 1:51:53
  It comes in and we're naming it and, you
• 1:51:55
  know, there's a personality individuality
• 1:51:56
  to it. And then some manner is leave the
• 1:51:59
  area or maybe go to the
• 1:52:00
  other location along the coast.
• 1:52:03
  There's a lot of tracking happening
• 1:52:04
  because we have the names for the manner.
• 1:52:06
  It's kind of cool. So that is for my
• 1:52:09
  location that I see surf height and have
• 1:52:11
  a forecast that I would cancel. But then
• 1:52:14
  people ask me when I have these guests on
• 1:52:16
  the phone and they say,
• 1:52:16
  hey, should I go on the boats?
• 1:52:18
  I'm like, well, it's going to be a rocky
• 1:52:21
  rocky rocky rocky journey because of my
• 1:52:27
  location is blown out. You know, the rest
• 1:52:29
  of the West Coast is pretty much blown
• 1:52:31
  out to the swells that are that happened
• 1:52:34
  in the wintertime hit the West Shore.
• 1:52:36
  We are on the West side of the island.
• 1:52:37
  They happen to come from the West and
• 1:52:39
  from the North and then the rest of the
• 1:52:41
  year, they hit the East and the South.
• 1:52:43
  You know, some then we're protected in
• 1:52:45
  our bay. You know, it's a rocky road.
• 1:52:47
  You know, it's like the surface is like
• 1:52:49
  this and you have to be ready if you are
• 1:52:53
  prone to seasickness or just don't go on
• 1:52:55
  the ocean often and on the boat. Then
• 1:52:58
  this whole tour could be just not a good
• 1:53:00
  memory. You spend a
• 1:53:02
  lot of money to be there.
• 1:53:04
  Exactly. Exactly. You spend a lot of
• 1:53:05
  money and you want to make sure you have
• 1:53:07
  a good time. You want to be able to get
• 1:53:09
  the entire experience and that would be
• 1:53:11
  that would be great. As we kind of come
• 1:53:14
  near to the end of this interview, you know, you have a lot of experience.
• 1:53:16
  You know, you have a lot of hopes for
• 1:53:18
  this industry. You have a lot of hopes
• 1:53:20
  for the manorays. What do you hope that
• 1:53:23
  happens and how do you want to play a
• 1:53:25
  role in in this sort of pushing this
• 1:53:29
  regulation? What what do you plan on
• 1:53:31
  doing through the nonprofit through, you
• 1:53:33
  know, through Hawaii, Hawaii
• 1:53:35
  Ocean Watch as well as through
• 1:53:38
  the manor a advocates? What do you hope
• 1:53:40
  to happen? Yeah, I need a little bit more
• 1:53:43
  a team around me that are not just in the
• 1:53:47
  industry. That lady last year from the
• 1:53:51
  University of Hawaii law student gave me
• 1:53:54
  like a whole different angle to this
• 1:53:55
  whole thing, right? And I wish the thing
• 1:53:59
  is, it's a my business also one woman
• 1:54:01
  show for the most, but I have a team, you
• 1:54:03
  know, everybody has, but I
• 1:54:04
  have so many hats on. I have.
• 1:54:06
  Right. Yeah, as a business owner for a
• 1:54:08
  small company, you have so many things at
• 1:54:11
  the same time. So the time of the day is
• 1:54:12
  only so much. So I wish that we can move
• 1:54:17
  forward. I plan with my podcast that I
• 1:54:19
  have coming up this year, also to invite
• 1:54:22
  folks like our local representatives and
• 1:54:25
  I'm like, Hey, guys, 2014, you already
• 1:54:28
  had this resolution with the
• 1:54:29
  representative half your local leadership
• 1:54:31
  representative, you know, it's like, Hey,
• 1:54:34
  11 years ago, you did something.
• 1:54:35
  I already wires that no follow up stuff.
• 1:54:37
  So I want to invite people. And also,
• 1:54:40
  it's always goes back to good policy that
• 1:54:43
  I'm looking for, for a really beautiful
• 1:54:45
  experience with manner is we need good
• 1:54:47
  policy, but you need good government. So
• 1:54:49
  you need to also get engaged with the
• 1:54:51
  legislator that create these rules and
• 1:54:53
  set it up for us, right? So yes, the
• 1:54:56
  citizens can live with that abide by it.
• 1:54:59
  And I okay with that, because of course,
• 1:55:01
  it's always a process. But again, good
• 1:55:04
  policy comes from the
• 1:55:05
  government. That means citizens have to
• 1:55:07
  be involved in that just that that it's
• 1:55:09
  like things somewhere else is going to do
• 1:55:11
  it. So my goal is with the podcast, it's
• 1:55:13
  just this up a little more actually just
• 1:55:16
  met my Congresswoman on Saturday for the
• 1:55:19
  first time she was on the big island for
• 1:55:20
  her town hall was a really cool
• 1:55:22
  experience. Yeah, I was very engaged. I
• 1:55:26
  think the citizens of the United States
• 1:55:27
  are waking up to a lot of other things
• 1:55:29
  besides ocean, ocean stuff, right? But
• 1:55:33
  environmental stuff. And I wish that
• 1:55:35
  we all maybe carry forward for the next
• 1:55:39
  let's say the next 10 years, if we all
• 1:55:41
  take a little bit more of our time versus
• 1:55:43
  just what do I get out of it? How can we
• 1:55:46
  as citizens create a country that has
• 1:55:49
  good policy through good government, you
• 1:55:52
  know, and maybe it gives a lot of people,
• 1:55:54
  I mean, for me, it gives me a lot of a
• 1:55:56
  lot of intention behind my work. But it's
• 1:55:59
  very content work. I really think I'm on
• 1:56:02
  the right side of history here for making
• 1:56:04
  the world a better place.
• 1:56:05
  Yeah. And I wish more folks feel that way
• 1:56:09
  and dedicate time to that, to that goal
• 1:56:13
  to that mission. Let's make the world I
• 1:56:15
  think for the first time in my all my
• 1:56:17
  life, I'm I think I'm 57. I'm not sure. I
• 1:56:21
  always forget something in the 50s. But
• 1:56:24
  in my first my life, I feel like because
• 1:56:26
  so many citizens citizens are now waking
• 1:56:28
  up and want to do good government. Maybe
• 1:56:31
  we can really shape something for the
• 1:56:33
  first time I feel like I can shape
• 1:56:34
  something and yeah, I think that's a good thing.
• 1:56:35
  Yeah, it should feel hopefully fuel me
• 1:56:37
  and maybe people step into my path that
• 1:56:40
  helped me to get regulations for the
• 1:56:42
  manner is and what what else needs to be
• 1:56:44
  done. I love it. I love it. That was a
• 1:56:46
  great way to end off the show. Or to
• 1:56:49
  thank you so much for joining us. If I
• 1:56:51
  could invite some people some if you want
• 1:56:54
  to come back to my website, I actually
• 1:56:55
  have manner and meditations. I don't know
• 1:56:57
  if you saw that I did not see that I must
• 1:57:00
  have missed that back in the pandemic. I
• 1:57:01
  had a meditation
• 1:57:03
  teacher with me together.
• 1:57:05
  Creating all my archives of video footage
• 1:57:08
  of the manner is manner and meditations
• 1:57:09
  for and it's for free. It's on the
• 1:57:11
  website and you can sign up for it. So
• 1:57:13
  you can actually dive down into the
• 1:57:15
  manner is world and just on your device
• 1:57:17
  back home and just get a feel of how
• 1:57:20
  beautiful the elements are. And it's
• 1:57:22
  manner and meditations.com if you want to
• 1:57:25
  it has a link to it. And I wish that the
• 1:57:29
  message for me is we can do better. Let's
• 1:57:33
  do better. Let's
• 1:57:33
  dedicate ourselves to do better.
• 1:57:35
  And this is the time to really think of
• 1:57:39
  our species we can do and must be better.
• 1:57:43
  Absolutely. No, I love it. I have it
• 1:57:45
  right here. Perfect. I'm going to link to
• 1:57:47
  that as well. This is great. I love the
• 1:57:49
  effort. If there's a if there's anything
• 1:57:50
  we can do to help out, please let us
• 1:57:52
  know. But obviously we're going to we're
• 1:57:54
  going to be releasing this podcast and so
• 1:57:56
  that I'll get people help. And if you
• 1:57:58
  need help with the podcast, let me know.
• 1:58:00
  But this has been a great experience
• 1:58:01
  having you on the podcast. Thank you so
• 1:58:03
  much for the work that you've done in the
• 1:58:04
  work that you're going to do.
• 1:58:05
  We really appreciate and can't wait to
• 1:58:06
  have you back on. Yes, thank you. Aloha.
• 1:58:09
  Thank you, Martina, for joining us on
• 1:58:11
  today's episode of the How to Protect the
• 1:58:12
  Ocean podcast. It was so great to be able
• 1:58:14
  to talk to somebody who's been in the
• 1:58:16
  industry, but is looking out for the
• 1:58:18
  animals that drive the industry.
• 1:58:21
  Obviously, there's been an explosion of
• 1:58:23
  popularity with Manaree diving. This is
• 1:58:26
  something that people really want to take
• 1:58:27
  part in. But there's also an ethics code
• 1:58:29
  that you have to abide by when you say,
• 1:58:32
  who do I go with? You know, I got to make
• 1:58:34
  sure that I'm safe. I got to do it.
• 1:58:35
  I got to make sure that there's not too
• 1:58:37
  many people out there and that
• 1:58:39
  regulations need to be put into place
• 1:58:40
  because obviously people aren't really
• 1:58:42
  adhering to the voluntary regulations
• 1:58:44
  that have been put into place. And so
• 1:58:46
  that is an important aspect. You know, a
• 1:58:48
  lot of times when unfortunately when
• 1:58:50
  businesses are provided a time to
• 1:58:52
  volunteer, not all businesses will
• 1:58:55
  volunteer their time to regulate
• 1:58:57
  themselves in terms of how they operate
• 1:59:00
  their business. Unfortunately, that's
• 1:59:01
  just the way life goes. But it's nice to
• 1:59:03
  have people like Martina and
• 1:59:05
  her business and other business operators
• 1:59:06
  that are similar to her that push for
• 1:59:08
  these regulations to ensure that people
• 1:59:10
  follow and abide by these rules so that
• 1:59:13
  we can protect Manaree's and we can
• 1:59:14
  protect the people and the Bova operators
• 1:59:16
  that are actually doing this work. This
• 1:59:18
  is not easy work. The ocean can be very
• 1:59:21
  tough, especially at night and people
• 1:59:23
  need to be safe and the Manaree's needs
• 1:59:24
  to be safe. That's priority number one.
• 1:59:27
  Both of those are priority number one. So
• 1:59:28
  yeah, it was great to talk to Martina.
• 1:59:31
  Thank you so much for joining us.
• 1:59:33
  Martina, we really appreciate you sharing
• 1:59:34
  your information. I'll put
• 1:59:35
  the link in the description.
• 1:59:35
  We have a link to the website that she
• 1:59:36
  mentioned all in the show notes and you
• 1:59:39
  can get a hold of me and talk to me if
• 1:59:42
  you want. All you have to do is just hit
• 1:59:43
  me up on Instagram at how to protect the
• 1:59:45
  ocean. That's at how to protect the
• 1:59:47
  ocean. And if you have any comments or
• 1:59:48
  questions, you can put them in the
• 1:59:51
  comment section just down below if you're
• 1:59:52
  watching this on YouTube or on Spotify or
• 1:59:55
  if you can contact me through Instagram
• 1:59:59
  if you're listening to the audio episode.
• 2:00:01
  Thank you so much for joining me on
• 2:00:02
  today's episode of the how to
• 2:00:03
  protect the ocean podcast. I'm
• 2:00:05
  your host Andrew from the true North
• 2:00:06
  strong and free. Have a great day. We'll
• 2:00:08
  talk to you next time
• 2:00:09
  and happy conservation.