Latest / Authentic Living / Dealing with PTSD Within the Family with Trauma Experts, Sajel and Vincent Bellon

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Dealing with PTSD Within the Family with Trauma Experts, Sajel and Vincent Bellon · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we conscious conversations about
• 0:08
  things that really matter in our lives.
• 0:12
  And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
• 0:36
  Hi, everyone.
• 0:37
  It's Rob Roxanne Derhodge the authentic election, movement today with, Sajal and her
• 0:45
  lovely husband, Vincent.
• 0:47
  Lovely.
• 0:47
  Thank
• 0:47
  you.
• 0:48
  So, that's a it's a compliment So I've I've met you.
• 0:54
  I've met Sajal, obviously, lots of times, not meant, Vincent before, but I, oftentimes, on
• 1:02
  the podcast, I I really love to speak to people about things are actually happening other in
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  the real world in different work environments, of which, in this case, Sageel works a lot
• 1:14
  with, first responders, and that's her specialty around her coaching and her speak her
• 1:20
  speaking.
• 1:21
  And Vincent actually a firefighter.
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  So I thought what a great opportunity to be able to chat about it's one thing to have the
• 1:28
  concepts of the book and things like that.
• 1:30
  But when you have real live examples, I think those are the most fantastic.
• 1:34
  So thanks again.
• 1:35
  I for coming on and and helping me out, guys.
• 1:39
  Anytime, Roxanne?
• 1:41
  Okay.
• 1:41
  So we're gonna just, jump right into things and talk a little bit about, PTS, PTSI, complex
• 1:51
  PTSD, all the terms that you hear, and I always say you, you know, people think of it as
• 1:55
  trauma.
• 1:55
  Right?
• 1:56
  And I often say there could be a small t trauma all the way up to big t trauma, which is some
• 2:01
  potentially some of the things that fits with would deal with all the time.
• 2:04
  So tell me, Vince, from your perspective, what kind of things would you see over your 16 years
• 2:12
  of of being a firefighter that I mean, you might still recall today?
• 2:18
  Well, over the course of my career, I've seen a lot.
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  It depends on where you're located, what hall you're at.
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  Things that you respond to.
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  I've seen everything from suicides to children passing to people being burned alive.
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  People shot, injuries at work, tire accidents on the 401.
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  You name it.
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  It's a it's a gambit.
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  It's a lot of, a lot of different things.
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  Right?
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  So, every hall sees something different.
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  Every person experiences something different.
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  So
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  Now, Sage, when when Vince started it, obviously, I'm gonna was something that you
• 3:00
  always wanted to do, Vince?
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  Was this something that you always kinda dreamed about?
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  Do he has a little boy?
• 3:05
  Yeah.
• 3:06
  Exactly.
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  Little boy.
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  Childhood dream and, worked hard at doing it.
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  So Awesome.
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  Awesome.
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  Yeah.
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  For sure.
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  So, Sage, when when you kinda recall way back, you know, at the beginning, do you remember
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  seeing kinda any I mean, I would think at first it's the excitement of the field.
• 3:27
  Oh, for sure.
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  I mean, I got to marry my fantasy.
• 3:30
  Right?
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  Like, We always we joke about it.
• 3:34
  You know, girls looking at the guys in the uniform and everything else.
• 3:37
  And, you know, I remember when Vince was training and you know, practicing his protocols
• 3:43
  and I was like pretending to be the the dummy and he'd just come close and I could feel my
• 3:47
  heart skipped, you know, things like that.
• 3:50
  Quite let's quite literally plus your plus your, helping him with this.
• 3:57
  Bring on
• 3:57
  the CPR, baby.
• 3:59
  Right?
• 4:01
  So, you know, we had a lot of fun at the beginning.
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  And now looking back, you know, especially over the 3 years since we've been navigating PTSD in
• 4:11
  full full effect.
• 4:13
  Looking back, like, over the decade, there were so many things that we could have picked up on
• 4:19
  should have picked up picked up on.
• 4:21
  And being a psychotherapist myself, it's like this being the shoemaker with no shoes.
• 4:26
  That's what I felt like, you know, that why didn't I pick it up sooner?
• 4:30
  Why didn't I notice it sooner?
• 4:32
  And we were talking up a lot of it to just normal marital issues or high, you know, family
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  stress, And just thinking that we had normalized a lot of what if you look back now
• 4:47
  was much more severe than what we were recognizing it to be.
• 4:52
  So, Vince, when did you know it was more than just, I mean, every every long term marriage is
• 4:58
  there's differences.
• 4:59
  You have to communicate.
• 5:00
  You're constantly have to make time to kind of resolve things.
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  When did you know it was a little bit more than that?
• 5:05
  Yeah.
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  Like, when that that in in fact, some of the symptoms you're experiencing were actually
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  related to some of the traumatic things you were seeing, and it, in fact, was starting to
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  impact or maybe corrode at the at the relationships at home?
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  As a firefighter, doing this job, we don't bring, or we try not to bring what see it at at
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  home.
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  So we internalize everything.
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  So what happens, you know, you go off call after call.
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  Sometimes you don't have time to process.
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  So we just kinda pack it away and move forward.
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  With me, had the one call about two and a half years ago, And I I came home, and I was just
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  very quiet.
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  I I, you know, I felt kinda weird, but I couldn't explain it.
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  I knew something was up, but I didn't know what it was.
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  And so, you know, I moving forward, in the next shift, I was filling it at another station.
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  And I just didn't feel right.
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  I knew something was wrong, but I didn't know quite what it was.
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  So I called a friend of mine, And he was on the EAP team, and I said, look.
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  I said, something's up with me.
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  I don't know what it is.
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  I feel kinda weird.
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  I don't know what's going on.
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  He's like, well, what's what's, you know, tell me tell me about it.
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  Why are you feeling this way?
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  Did you see a bad call?
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  I said, yeah.
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  I was at that call with the explication.
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  And he was like, oh, wow.
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  I guess I heard that was pretty bad.
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  I said, yeah.
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  It was.
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  He says, well, how are you feeling?
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  I said, well, I just I don't know yet.
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  Like, I'm I know I'm different.
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  You know, I feel weird.
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  But, I'll let you know.
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  I said, just just wanna give you a heads up to let you know, like, something's up, but I can't
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  really put my finger on it.
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  Then I let the couple of days pass.
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  And then when I returned back to work the next shift, I was again filling in again, and the
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  feeling wasn't going away.
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  In fact, it was getting worse.
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  And I I was just not myself, and I I just knew something was up.
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  So I gave him a call again.
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  I said, look, the feelings I have are, you know, not changing.
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  I'm having visions of having, you know, nightmares and things are going on with me.
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  And it's, it's not good.
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  And he says, well, he says, I think you you need some help.
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  And then he goes, like, because, you know, something obviously is, tipped the scales for
• 7:16
  you.
• 7:17
  I said, yeah.
• 7:18
  So then that's basically how it started for me when I came home.
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  That was quiet for a while.
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  And then Sage would tell you the rest of what's going on.
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  I just basically immersed myself to things I was doing outside and not dealing with my
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  family at all.
• 7:31
  So, Sage, when did you start to realize this was not kinda the garden variety kinda impacts
• 7:39
  this this one particular call, you know, sounds like it was pretty horrific for you to, you
• 7:44
  know, have stored so so much memory you know, obviously the cumulative impact.
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  So what did you realize with him?
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  He said he was, quiet Was there other things?
• 7:55
  Yeah.
• 7:56
  Yeah.
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  So when he came home from the the actual call, you know, he was quiet.
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  And again, I said that we normalize, right?
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  So I knew that when he's comes home and if he's quiet, just let him be He does his thing for
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  about 24 to 48 hours, and he comes around when he comes around.
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  That was sort of the routine that we had, made for ourselves.
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  I'm you to stay out of his way.
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  Cause if I did, interact too much with him after a bad call, unknowingly, I was public
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  enemy number 1.
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  And so over time, I just had resigned myself to if he's quiet, let him be.
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  So what what happened was he was quiet for the 1st 24 to 48 hours, which I said we stayed, I
• 8:40
  stayed away.
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  And then, I found he was having like really angry outbursts.
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  And I found that the children and I were walking on egg shells a lot.
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  And, sort of very uncertain.
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  And it was like not even like get mad at something that was reasonable.
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  It was getting mad at like the smallest of things and going from a 0 to a 100.
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  And it was instant.
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  So we became sort of very hesitant to even interact.
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  It had gone on for about a few weeks.
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  And, you know, I had we had, in between, we had sort of those conversations with each other
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  where I'd say, no, I understand you're upset, but, you know, I think the extreme of the
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  reaction maybe wasn't called for and he would find himself, I would find him, beating himself
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  up over it and being feeling very guilty and you know, and trying to not make him feel
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  worse, you know, we would have conversations and be very accepting.
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  And, it went on for a few weeks till it was like becoming more and more frequent.
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  Quality of life wasn't there.
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  And eventually knowing that I had to make a decision between Mike Children's well-being
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  because this wasn't a healthy for anyone.
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  And he wasn't talking to me.
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  So, literally with one foot out the door, I said to him, you need to tell me what's going
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  on.
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  Or I have to make some decisions here for everyone's benefit because this is not okay.
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  And how did you respond?
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  When she said that, what did you do?
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  Did you went go, oh god.
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  I can't talk about it, or, I gotta do something.
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  I I was just in a state where, I didn't know what to do.
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  You know what I mean?
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  I was, like, feeling helpless.
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  I I the guilt was phenomenal.
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  It was unbelievable.
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  A lot of pressure.
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  You know, and I knew here I was, my life's in a balance where, you know, I'm gonna lose my
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  family.
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  And I knew, there was definitely something wrong that I needed help.
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  I just didn't know what to do, you know.
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  Just kinda broke down.
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  I just kinda you know, I didn't I don't you were there, Sage.
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  Well, I I don't know what I can say.
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  It's just it was but that's my turning point for sure for me.
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  You know, I think this is after was at 3 in the morning, 4 in the morning.
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  Right?
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  Yeah.
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  Like, I was I literally we had a blowout just, you know, a few hours before, and I left the
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  house.
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  I got in the car, and I drove and ended up, in the local park beside my house.
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  And I was like, I know I can't hear.
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  I'm at a stage where I'm having nightmares.
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  I can't stop them.
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  I'm having constant flashes.
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  Like, I'm talking to you and I'd have flashes that would just come at me.
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  Every odor, every every thought memory and recent call that I've had that, you know, was
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  horrible was coming at me, and I couldn't shut it off.
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  And to a point where I was looking at up staring at a pole, a hydro pole, and it was
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  like a a light pole with a cement base.
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  And I was like, okay.
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  Now what?
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  So I backed the car.
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  I backed my car up as far as it can go, and I shifted in park, and I was just ready to floor
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  it.
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  I was like, you know what?
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  I have to stop it somehow, and I'm obviously not good for my family.
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  Maybe it's best if I'm just not around.
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  How powerful.
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  Right?
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  The pain that, overtakes when you can't neutralize this the nervous system and you
• 12:21
  know, you and I know you guys would know about the vagal nasal nerve.
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  And if it's overstimulated, which, obviously, it was with you.
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  And and you couldn't get out of that hyper route states And now now the body and the brain
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  is trying to kind of get you back to that homeostatic balance, but, obviously, there was
• 12:38
  additional things that were needed for that to happen.
• 12:40
  Yeah.
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  And as well, not only the there was only, like, a visual thing and a memory thing, but my ears,
• 12:45
  I was getting tones in my ears, and now I now have tinnitus because of this.
• 12:50
  And I'm hearing different frequencies.
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  And and it's like, that's the way way I can describe it is like you're, looking high
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  definition TV constantly, and you're you have your stereo cranked on high all the
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  time.
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  Mhmm.
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  You constantly your peripheral visions constantly moving back and forth.
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  You see people coming coming and going.
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  It's like you're constantly on guard on it was crazy.
• 13:14
  Right?
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  And it's just anything would set me off.
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  And it can arrange They're not even, reasonable.
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  Like, you know, something fall on the floor.
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  I go off, fly off the handle.
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  And that's not me, but I just I didn't know.
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  What to do.
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  It was not.
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  So definitely the the body and the brain was saying help me help me.
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  Something has to give here so that you could get some kind of, relief from all all the
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  things that we're coming at you.
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  It's like, I often the analogy I I often say to people is like, you know, going the wrong way
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  on the 401.
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  You you there's so much coming at you.
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  You're not sure exactly where where to go.
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  Right.
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  So so, Sato, for for partners that are listening, what for wives or, even kids that
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  are living with a parent that's might potentially be struggling with some issues
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  related to post traumatic stress.
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  What what kind of advice or guidance would you give them?
• 14:12
  Something I share with, a lot of the clients and family systems that I work with is that the
• 14:18
  most important thing is to have open dialogue and to really create a safe environment, not
• 14:24
  just for the person who's going through it.
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  But all of you.
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  Because when you create a system of safety, it's much more nurturing for the individual
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  who's going through it firsthand, but it's also making safe for everybody else to open up
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  because we're all going through things at the same time.
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  I mean, I was, a wife living without her husband.
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  I, you know, my children didn't have their dad the way they would normally have him.
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  So everyone's kinda going through their own thing.
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  So I think it's really important that the more everyone understands what each other is going
• 15:06
  through then we can create that environment where everyone can be healing, at the same time
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  and actually growing closer So taking this time of crisis and turning it into a platform for
• 15:19
  launching a new version of yourselves as a unit and as individuals.
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  So you can actually grow from the experience.
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  And Vincent, I don't know, if you wanna speak to this, but for us, I mean, we're better than
• 15:31
  we were before.
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  We're better as a couple.
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  We're better as parents.
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  We're better as a family, and we're better as individuals.
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  I really feel that we've actually used this experience to really cultivate the environment
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  that we had to always hope to have.
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  So it really gave us an opportunity.
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  So through the adversity, because you had to get the appropriate help, it actually heightens
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  your capacity to be able to connect on a deeper level, because you had to work through some of
• 16:01
  the things that maybe the average person doesn't really have to deal with.
• 16:05
  Right?
• 16:05
  Like, you know, couples they, you know, they have to stay connected.
• 16:08
  They gotta talk about more than just running their lives.
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  They have to chitchat about things that potentially develop, but we're talking about
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  that that extra free flow of of situations that are less than.
• 16:21
  Right?
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  And that's coming into the relationships all the time.
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  It is.
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  And what we really found was the gaps that the system currently is set up to help the
• 16:36
  individual that's going through it, you know, be it that they get support through therapy and
• 16:41
  such.
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  But what we found were a lot of gaps, and that's what we now dedicate our time and our
• 16:48
  efforts towards is helping other couples and other families and other first responders
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  actually navigate the whole experience and and because our mission was that nobody should go
• 16:59
  through it alone the way we did.
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  And one of the gaps was that there wasn't a lot of family support.
• 17:06
  There was no spousal support.
• 17:08
  There was nothing for our children.
• 17:10
  So those are the opportunities that we're now creating, to get people talking and so that
• 17:16
  they're not going through these things alone.
• 17:18
  I wanna chat a little bit about the gaps in service because I think that's important.
• 17:22
  Vincent, you talked a little bit about the fear kind of promotes whether it's implicitly or
• 17:29
  explicitly not to talk about it.
• 17:31
  So we expect guys or women coming in to basically do it.
• 17:37
  They they go, they do the calls, and someone may say, hey, it's kinda difficult, but you
• 17:41
  kinda blip on it over it.
• 17:43
  And you move on.
• 17:45
  And, you know, generally, there's there's internal EAP arms, which for people listening
• 17:50
  that don't know what that is, It means that, you know, it's a peer led team that's trained
• 17:55
  that would be able to respond to be able to educate within 48 hours or sometimes they do
• 18:00
  what we could they call a debriefing, which in 72 hours, which helps people to reprocess,
• 18:05
  which is great for the guys that are on deck.
• 18:08
  What we haven't talked a bit about is kind of, okay, that's great.
• 18:12
  The guys are getting what they need, but what about the the husbands, the wives, the kids,
• 18:19
  parents, and the people around the all the systems that are outside of the fire hall.
• 18:23
  So I wanna talk more about that.
• 18:25
  And tell me about some of the things you're working on to to kind of address those gaps.
• 18:30
  So what things have you been doing differently?
• 18:35
  Well, I'm viewed probably as, the guy's worst nightmare, right, because, none of them want to
• 18:41
  go through this.
• 18:42
  Right?
• 18:42
  And a lot of the times, they know it exists.
• 18:45
  This, you know, what can happen to people.
• 18:49
  But they just choose not to deal.
• 18:50
  And it's a it's a suck it up Nancy mentality, you know, like, you have that tough call.
• 18:55
  You deal with what you have to deal with.
• 18:57
  You move it on.
• 18:58
  You move on and you keep going.
• 18:59
  Right?
• 19:00
  Nobody wants to talk about it because it's kind of a taboo thing.
• 19:05
  It's also a generation thing where you have different, kind of age groups in the fire hall
• 19:11
  where, you know, you have the, older mentality where it's like was never spoken about, so we
• 19:17
  don't wanna talk about it.
• 19:18
  Then you have the intermediate stage where they're kinda they know something about it.
• 19:23
  And they know it exists, but we still kinda really talk about it because the people that
• 19:28
  are your senior don't really wanna hear about the people they junior are just too junior to
• 19:33
  realize or to understand, and then you have the newbies that come in and and they're like,
• 19:37
  they're all kinda ready to go and they wanna get in there and do their thing.
• 19:43
  I think as a whole, we have to understand that, yeah, this does exist.
• 19:47
  And it's not there's no shame.
• 19:49
  I mean, everybody has their story.
• 19:50
  Right?
• 19:50
  You talk to, every different firefighter or or emergency service worker.
• 19:55
  They have their story.
• 19:56
  They have their calls.
• 19:57
  And what may not necessarily affect me may affect them.
• 20:02
  So as a as a whole, we all have to say, you know what?
• 20:05
  Yes.
• 20:05
  This does exist.
• 20:07
  Yes.
• 20:07
  We have people that are in trouble, and we have to open up our hearts and say, look, guys, you
• 20:10
  know, girls, whatever.
• 20:12
  We have to do something about this.
• 20:13
  So the more we're open minded to things, the more we educate ourselves, the better it be for
• 20:18
  the whole.
• 20:18
  For sure, people should step forward and they should talk about it.
• 20:22
  And they should be, making it their best effort to do what they can do to make themselves
• 20:26
  better and to make themselves better for themselves and their families.
• 20:28
  And they don't have to keep it in the hall.
• 20:30
  They can open up to their families, bring their spouses into the conversation, bring their
• 20:36
  house spouses into the halls, you know, when the opportunity is there so that there's
• 20:40
  familiarity and crossover because what we forget is that we're one organism and we're one
• 20:47
  organism moving from one environment to the other.
• 20:50
  It's not that you're leaving all your stress and pressures behind.
• 20:53
  So the more sort of continuity we have in terms of support and care, the more likely you are to
• 21:00
  be more resilient and to recover faster if you happen to find yourself in crisis.
• 21:05
  You know what I think?
• 21:06
  And then maybe this exists.
• 21:07
  I I'm just thinking, off the top of my head here, if there was a debriefing and there was
• 21:12
  the possibility to be able to do a concurrent one with the partners of the firefighter.
• 21:19
  And I'm I'm sure I'm completely going against what whatever protocol would be.
• 21:24
  Just think how amazing that would be, right, because generally, they know if someone's gonna
• 21:29
  suffer within 72 hours, right, because, generally, they can reprocess.
• 21:33
  They can kind of deal with it.
• 21:35
  They can get rid of what they need to.
• 21:37
  But if there's a cumulative effect, the the those individuals generally potentially might
• 21:42
  be going off on leave.
• 21:43
  But if there was something like that that could be adapted even as a pilot, maybe it's done.
• 21:48
  I don't know, or has been done.
• 21:50
  Just think of how powerful that would be.
• 21:52
  Well, I haven't heard of anything as such like that, but what comes to mind, Vincent, and you
• 21:58
  can kinda tap into this is, the the protocol that if a firefighter is injured, we get
• 22:05
  notified either by the firefighter.
• 22:06
  If he's unable to speak for himself, or herself, then we're informed by, I believe it's
• 22:13
  the captain, right, Vincent?
• 22:14
  Captain or chief for what?
• 22:15
  Captain or chief.
• 22:16
  And if something's really, really wrong, they will actually come to the cheese truck comes to
• 22:21
  pick pick you up or to notify you at home.
• 22:24
  I wonder if through the peer support, if there isn't some opportunity that if they feel after
• 22:31
  a certain call that this person's at risk, if there isn't a way then to, like you said,
• 22:37
  Roxanne, have a conversation including the family or spouse to say, look, there's been, a
• 22:43
  real heavy exposure here.
• 22:45
  We just wanna make sure that you're all on the same page and know what to look for.
• 22:49
  Know that we're here if you or anyone in the family needs the support.
• 22:55
  And then let's check back in, let's say, 48 hours.
• 22:58
  And and did some sort, you know, sort of amped up the protocol to include psychological
• 23:03
  trauma.
• 23:04
  Right.
• 23:05
  Because because if we look at what, Vince was saying earlier, the firefighters predisposition
• 23:11
  or a state is to kinda keep it in, But if there was some way through, you know, that sharing
• 23:17
  through all keeping in confidentiality and all those things in mind, I just think what what a
• 23:22
  service that would be, right, because maybe the person's still struggling to share or even
• 23:27
  process what they're going through.
• 23:28
  They're trying to go home like you did, Vincent, and and and make sense of stuff that
• 23:33
  it doesn't make sense for any of us.
• 23:35
  Right.
• 23:35
  And and, you know, so that extra helping hand along the way.
• 23:39
  So it may be something, with you, specializing where you are, maybe it's something that, you
• 23:44
  know, might be a good thing to potentially look at even piloting and see if
• 23:48
  Well, that's what we do through Mind Darmers.
• 23:49
  We create these micro programs.
• 23:52
  And we don't have a cookie cutter approach.
• 23:54
  We do it with department to department.
• 23:56
  We we help them to create the protocols and programs or interventions that are going to
• 24:04
  serve their community the best, depending on the size and feature of each each department.
• 24:09
  So that's that's what we do from the mind armor aspect.
• 24:13
  So tell, yeah, tell me a little bit more about that.
• 24:15
  Until everybody listening because I'm sure there's people thinking, if I'm a spouse, you
• 24:20
  know, what I need to talk to somebody, if I'm a couple and I need to be able to even if it's an
• 24:27
  informational call, you know, and I maybe I don't need therapy or whatever, but I need to
• 24:32
  kinda get a sense that this has been happening.
• 24:35
  What is it?
• 24:36
  What should I as a spouse, you know, need to develop skills wise or whatever or a psycho ed
• 24:42
  kind of session.
• 24:43
  What are some of the things that you do?
• 24:45
  So sort of in response to, again, what we've kind of learned along the way is, we built or
• 24:53
  what inspired Mind Armor was that we saw the gaps that the departments were were having in
• 24:59
  terms of you know, how to integrate this into the culture because there's a whole culture
• 25:05
  piece.
• 25:05
  There's then the sort of educational and training piece There's the how do you actually
• 25:10
  live it then within the organization organizational system?
• 25:15
  So, actually, my whole doc it and dissertation is how do we integrate this and create systems
• 25:20
  in which first responders can live and thrive.
• 25:24
  And building their resistance along the way.
• 25:26
  So the a whole idea of hire to retire comes into play.
• 25:30
  So that's the mind armor piece.
• 25:32
  And we offer, like, the training and the the speaking at events and things like that.
• 25:37
  Vince and I both do that individually as well as team.
• 25:41
  So we've both gone on and and actually done talk together.
• 25:45
  So we resonate with a a larger audience, including the family's spouses and also
• 25:50
  providing both perspectives because if you don't get both perspectives, how do we start to
• 25:55
  make change?
• 25:56
  Right?
• 25:57
  So we do that from the Mind Armor side.
• 25:59
  And what we found was a lot of people, including chiefs and leaders, was like, you
• 26:04
  guys get this.
• 26:05
  This is what you guys need to be doing.
• 26:08
  And then some people were coming forward saying, I'd love to see you.
• 26:12
  And so we actually opened up SOS psychotherapy to actually be able to help people then one on
• 26:19
  one as couples and as, in groups as well.
• 26:23
  So we're serving both sides of the sector because like I said, we identified where the
• 26:27
  gaps are and we're here to help fill in the gaps so that it's more seamless and people can
• 26:32
  really focus on healing and growing and getting better.
• 26:37
  So that's the idea is to provide as much support as we can.
• 26:40
  And we certainly work within a network as well that if it's something we can't provide or
• 26:45
  don't provide, We certainly know people that probably do.
• 26:48
  So it's just about people reaching out, starting it to have these courageous
• 26:53
  conversations, that we can start to make the culture shift.
• 26:56
  And to re I I just did a talk on, what's your cause for pause which addresses a really
• 27:03
  important piece, which is thoughts of suicide don't kill.
• 27:07
  If the isolation and stigma from the shame that does.
• 27:13
  A lot of guilt.
• 27:14
  So go ahead, Vince.
• 27:15
  No.
• 27:15
  I said it's a lot of guilt.
• 27:16
  Right?
• 27:17
  A
• 27:17
  lot of guilt.
• 27:18
  Just for my own personal experience, guilt is so bad.
• 27:23
  It was only this January where I actually said, okay.
• 27:26
  I have to forgive myself.
• 27:28
  For, you know, what I put my family through.
• 27:31
  But otherwise, it was like, just that's just another factor that weighs on you because, you
• 27:36
  know, you're hurting the people that you love the Right?
• 27:38
  You're not thinking of yourself at this point because yourself, you're thinking, well, you
• 27:42
  you're trying to figure out what's going on with you.
• 27:44
  It's but the people that you're screaming and yelling at and fighting or and fighting with
• 27:48
  and causing them grief.
• 27:50
  And they're saying, how come dad's this way?
• 27:52
  And how come my husband's this way?
• 27:53
  Or my wife's this whatever.
• 27:55
  You know?
• 27:56
  So, yeah, after, you know, figuring that out and, forgiving yourself, or at least trying or
• 28:04
  making a best effort to do so, then you can move forward.
• 28:08
  That's what's kind of Let's
• 28:09
  talk a little bit about kids because I know I've I've taken a lot of your time, but What
• 28:13
  kind of guidance do you give to families out there about how to talk to kids?
• 28:18
  If, based on what parents are coming home with, what I know this is a deep, a developmental
• 28:24
  question, but, you know, what kind of support do you offer for kids or do you in your or do
• 28:31
  you refer that on?
• 28:32
  It it totally depends on the circumstance and the, as you said, the developmental stage of
• 28:37
  the children.
• 28:38
  But if your children are at the age and stage where you can connect with them and have really
• 28:44
  open honest conversation and welcome the questions, and and curiosities that they might
• 28:49
  have.
• 28:51
  We really, really do recommend that, So for instance, for our children, we can give you an
• 28:56
  example, is we created language in our family.
• 29:00
  So we use scaling questions So we know where each other is at and, you know, let's say daddy
• 29:07
  wakes up at an 8, then we know to give daddy some space, you know, if that's what he needs
• 29:12
  or if he needs to go out and and ground himself, then that's okay.
• 29:15
  It's done without question, without guilt.
• 29:18
  Or any sort of, ramification.
• 29:21
  It's he's welcomed back at any time.
• 29:24
  Welcoming their questions and also really to create the understanding that as parents were
• 29:30
  human too, and kids get that.
• 29:33
  You know?
• 29:34
  They really do.
• 29:35
  They're really quite resilient.
• 29:36
  I think, our children are probably 2 of the most beautiful compassionate human beings that
• 29:42
  we know And it's because, you know, they haven't had just a sort of, straight line in
• 29:49
  terms of their childhood.
• 29:50
  They've had the ups and downs, and and they've learned how to navigate them so much so that
• 29:55
  they're so compassionate now, in the, in the world with other people, because they recognize
• 30:02
  that we're all human and that we do stumble and we can get up and what would it look like if we
• 30:07
  help each other up?
• 30:08
  Mhmm.
• 30:09
  As well, we're we're very honest with them too.
• 30:11
  You know, it's, they ask a lot of times.
• 30:13
  I mean, daddy, what's wrong, what's going on, you know, happening with you.
• 30:16
  And I I didn't just tell him.
• 30:18
  I said, look.
• 30:18
  You know?
• 30:19
  This is what I'm experiencing.
• 30:21
  He says, you know, it's nothing personal.
• 30:22
  It has nothing to do with you, you know, your sister or your mom.
• 30:25
  This is something that's happened to me, and I'm working through this because I'm gonna
• 30:30
  wanna be the best person that I can be for them.
• 30:33
  Not only for myself.
• 30:34
  So a lot of times, I wanna have conversations with them.
• 30:37
  It's it's as raw as it can be and honest, and there's no game and there's no, worry in my
• 30:45
  mind about how they're thinking of me because I just wanna tell them what it is.
• 30:50
  And gives them a better understanding of what I've gone through and why I am the way I am
• 30:56
  and, you know, how people are just human.
• 30:59
  It can happen to anybody.
• 31:00
  So if it's, you know, sorry, Sage.
• 31:02
  If they experiences with anybody, they'll have a better understanding as to how to deal with
• 31:06
  them as well.
• 31:07
  And Roxanne, just to give the audience some sort of context, our children are now 10 and 11
• 31:14
  And when we we actually started this whole process and journey, they would have been, 7
• 31:22
  and 8, if not slightly younger.
• 31:25
  So you can understand the level of, resiliency and under standing that even our young people
• 31:32
  can have.
• 31:33
  And sometimes I think we don't give them enough credit to have open conversation with them.
• 31:40
  Now that doesn't mean that we gave them all the guts and gore of it.
• 31:43
  Mhmm.
• 31:43
  We obviously, you know, put it within context and use vocabulary and, storytelling that was
• 31:50
  appropriate, but whatever it was to give them that understanding.
• 31:55
  So that they also have words to to to their own feelings because my daughter opened up to us
• 32:02
  and we're so thankful that she did because again, you know, going back to thoughts of
• 32:07
  suicide, don't kill.
• 32:08
  She was thinking that she wanted to to end her pain.
• 32:11
  And we hadn't even and she knew how to put words to it now.
• 32:14
  And we didn't even know about it until she came and talked to
• 32:17
  us.
• 32:18
  Mhmm.
• 32:19
  So just the importance of, again, creating a, an environment where people feel
• 32:24
  psychologically safe to open up and talk.
• 32:27
  Sorry.
• 32:28
  What's important as well is they've learn that they can be my rock.
• 32:33
  Mhmm.
• 32:33
  Right?
• 32:33
  Not like the, you know, like, I've I've always taken on that role throughout my whole life,
• 32:38
  you know, being the rock the person, you know, has to be stable all the time, the whole thing,
• 32:42
  but they've saved me time and time again.
• 32:46
  Same with Sajel.
• 32:47
  Right?
• 32:47
  I mean, that night, if I didn't have them, I probably wouldn't be here.
• 32:51
  You know?
• 32:52
  It's just it's overwhelming.
• 32:53
  It's something that you just can't shut it off.
• 32:56
  So thinking back now, and I came back to them, you know, I tell them all the time.
• 33:01
  I said, you saved daddy's life.
• 33:03
  That's a lot better thinking.
• 33:04
  You ever think in your mind that you saved you know, you often talk about dad being, you know,
• 33:09
  the hero or the person saving people, but you're the you're the heroes because you've got
• 33:13
  you saved my life.
• 33:14
  All of you guys did.
• 33:15
  So transparency is key.
• 33:17
  Right?
• 33:17
  I mean, obviously, we know that with connection, but even more so when you're
• 33:21
  dealing with things like this and especially with children, when people think they're
• 33:25
  protecting them, you know, with your little guys, you know, they were experiencing it in
• 33:30
  their body.
• 33:31
  They were they knew something was wrong.
• 33:33
  And, obviously, you were putting, giving them permission to recognize daddy's not well.
• 33:39
  Mom, mama, and dad are trying to figure it out.
• 33:41
  We don't have the answers.
• 33:43
  We're gonna at least let you know that what we're feeling, which what a what a powerful
• 33:46
  gift that you gave them.
• 33:48
  Well and it also come on.
• 33:50
  Everyone's everyone's a little self centered, aren't we?
• 33:52
  We always think it's about us, and they were they could have been interpreting this as all
• 33:56
  their fault or something they were doing, and we took that away from them.
• 34:01
  And let them know that it wasn't personal, that it was something external to our family Mhmm.
• 34:07
  That we were okay.
• 34:08
  It was really reinforcing and creating safety for them because otherwise they thought that we
• 34:14
  were falling apart.
• 34:14
  There's something wrong with us, something that they were doing.
• 34:18
  And instead, we really told them the truth, which was no.
• 34:21
  We're all still good people.
• 34:23
  You know, we're all just working through something.
• 34:26
  And it's from the outside, and we're gonna be just fine.
• 34:30
  We just need to keep talking.
• 34:32
  Well, guys, this has been amazing.
• 34:34
  I would let you know that just tape number 2.
• 34:37
  We've done this once before, and I think the second time is even better.
• 34:41
  So, so what what I'd like to, you know, just tell everybody where they can get a hold of
• 34:48
  both of you.
• 34:50
  And I'm sure people are thinking they have questions, that they might wanna reach out.
• 34:54
  They might wanna find out about SOS.
• 34:56
  They might wanna find out about psychotherapy or just in their, different environments, how
• 35:00
  you might be able to strategize with them to make it healthier.
• 35:04
  Sure.
• 35:04
  The best way to reach us is at infoinf0@sagelbellenshael
• 35:13
  bell0n.com.
• 35:16
  You can send any inquiries there.
• 35:18
  Certainly, if it's an emergency or something that you'd like to get hold of us directly, you
• 35:23
  can reach us at 416-454-5064.
• 35:28
  And our websites and everything are under construction and on the way.
• 35:33
  So in progress, but we're we're we've we've already started helping and we've had boots on
• 35:41
  the ground and wearing to go.
• 35:43
  So we're we're ready for any inquiries if anyone hasn't needs any help.
• 35:48
  Awesome.
• 35:48
  Well, thanks a lot again, everyone.
• 35:50
  So what I'm learning is and of course, I've, you know, been in this field for a long time.
• 35:56
  Is, you know, when you don't, honor feeling, it's as traumatic as the actual event that's
• 36:01
  occurring.
• 36:02
  So recognize that something as simple as asking a question if you know someone's been through
• 36:07
  something that you're actually healing a little part of them and by just being connected and
• 36:11
  conscious about people's lives.
• 36:13
  So if you're needing any more information on me, I'm a mental health and wellness
• 36:17
  specialist, and I can be reached at Roxanne.
• 36:21
  Okay, guys.
• 36:22
  Take care.
• 36:22
  We'll talk to you soon.
• 36:23
  Thank you.
• 36:23
  Thank
• 36:24
  you.
• 36:24
  Bye bye.
• 36:25
  Bye bye.
• 36:27
  Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne.
• 36:30
  Create the space for positive, healthy change.
• 36:34
  Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
• 36:40
  roxannederhaj.com/blueprint.
• 36:44
  We'll see you next time on authentic living with Roxanne.