Latest / Outspoken the Podcast / TMG: The Backlash Over Steph Claire Smith’s Son’s Purple Socks

Transcript

TMG: The Backlash Over Steph Claire Smith’s Son’s Purple Socks · Outspoken the Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the mums group you actually want
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: to be a part of. I'm Sophie Torber and I'm
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: joined by my triplet sisters and journalists Kate and Amy.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Now I think we majorly jinxed ourselves last week because
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: we were talking about how we were really excited for
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: my son's birthday party and we'd all managed to dodge
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: gastro and how unbelievable it was. And then a couple
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: of hours later, Amy, I received a phone call from
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: you and you said, now Sophie, I'm sorry to be
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: the bearer of bad news, but Harry has been struck down.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: And since then, Kate, your husband.
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: Has also succumbed to the gastro.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And the wild thing is this is an incubation
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: period of six days.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: Like who would have actually thought it? Six days. Harry's
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: was like.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Eight days after he saw Jack. So Jack and Harry
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: had a bath. And at the time I took some
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: really cute photos and those photos are now coming back
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: to haunt us because I was greeted in the morning
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: to Harry projectile vomiting his milk out. And the first
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: person I thought of was actually Sophie. I was like,
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: holy shit, Sophie is going to lose it.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: Like she is going to be so upset. I felt
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: so bad for you and Luca.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: Look, I was trying to be positive about it, but
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: I think the thing that was the biggest kick to
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: the dick over the weekend was it was the most
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: beautiful and.
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: Glorious winter day. Like the sun was shining.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: It was warm.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: Like we've been doing up our outdoor, well, I said we.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: My husband and my in-laws have been doing up our
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: outside area for this party.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: It was picture perfect. And I.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: mentioned it a handful of times that morning to my
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: husband saying like, oh my God, look at this weather.
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: And he said, if you mention it one more time,
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: that's it.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: Like I can't handle it anymore. I love how you say.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Oh, I was trying to be positive about it. All
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: you kept mentioning was the fucking weather. So when I
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: woke up on Saturday morning, it was like 6.30 AM.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: You text me saying good day for a first birthday party.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: I was like, get over it. It's not, it's not
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: happening today.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: And the weather's really contentious with Sophie because she still
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: hung up about the fact that her wedding was like
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: two and a half years ago.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: And it was fucking boiling hot.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: So when I saw that it was perfect weather, I
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: was like, Look, for any new listeners, it wasn't just
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: boiling hot. It was 40 degrees and three of our
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: wedding guest's shoes melted in the extreme conditions and our
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: reception area didn't have air conditioning despite it being one of,
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: I'd say one of the top reception places in Adelaide.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: The thing is, I just know that the day you've
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: rescheduled the party too is going.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: To be absolutely pelting with rain. There's probably going to
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: be hail.
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: And I'll be cursing that kinder gym that you attend.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: Cursing at shaking fucking bars, taking my fist to that place.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: Surely Kate's not going back.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: We gave her so many warnings as well about the
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: gender gym because Kate, you always admitted that you openly
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: heard a woman saying that she thought.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: Her child had gastro. Well, I mean, that's a problem
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: with her. Like, I'm sorry.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: I don't mean to, I get that, you know, if
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: your kid's sick and you don't know, like, you know,
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: germs go around and that's understandable. But if you bring
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: a child that you know has symptoms of gastro to
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: an event like a kinder gym or a daycare center,
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: then you are a horrible person.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: And you've ruined my son's birthday.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: I can't even look forward because Jack's birthday is meant
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: to be on Saturday. And I just know at the
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: last minute I'm going to be struck down with gastro.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: Like I just know it and then I'm going to
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: have to cancel it. I've already started.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: I've got to pump up all these balloons.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: I feel like people at this stage sick of hearing
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: about a kid's birthday parties are like, surely there's a
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: pass by now, but they haven't. Now, Kate, there was
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: one silver lining that came out of the whole gastro
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: incident because Amy, it feels like we're in lockdown. Amy
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: was sort of in lockdown, so she wasn't allowed to
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: see us. But we started this really beautiful routine, didn't we?
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: We've been going on this lovely walk together, just the
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: two of us near our house, and then we've been
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: going out for ice chars. But one morning, you say
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: hello to most people as you walk past. It's a
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: lovely neighbourhood. And we got talking to this woman who
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: literally dropped the F-bomb, I'd like to say 25 times,
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: in front of our kids.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: Is that all? I loved it because it was so unexpected.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: She was almost like a, so when I said like
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: a fast-forward character, do you remember that 90s comedy?
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: No, it was so funny.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: Your story about it reminded me of a character from
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: Father Ted, if anyone's seen it. It's a cult Irish
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: show about three priests. Do you remember that woman who
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: just stops in the street and she's like, it's.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: The feckin', it's their feckin' fault, it's their... I'll have
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: to do an upshot in it.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: Actually, it might even be too offensive to put the
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: upshot in what she said because this is from like
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: the 90s.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: Apologies if you are listening with your children.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: Said Feck, the best thing was this woman was a
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: casual nurse at the hospital that Sophie and I, and
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: also you, Amy, all gave birth at. And she was
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: giving us a real insight into it, which I probably
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: preferred not to have heard about. Well, I made the
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: mistake of telling her that I had Like majority of
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: the midwives at the hospital was so lovely and I
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: loved every single one of them but there was an
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: incident where my son should have been given some formula
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: and he wasn't allowed and he ended up having... low
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: blood sugar levels and having to go to the NICU there.
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: And she's like, fucking write it down, complain, get those
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: bitches in trouble.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, that's lovely.
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: Two Australian influencers have been trolled online for revealing their
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: son's favourite colours of pink and purple. The influential mums
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: hit back saying the shaming of little boys for liking
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: pink and purple could very well be the beginning of
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: raising a misogynist. Now fitness mogul Steph Clare-Smith is one
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: of the influencers in question. A few weeks back she
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: revealed her five-year-old son Harvey was getting picked on at
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: kindy for wearing purple sparkly socks. Now, Steph uploaded a
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: candid conversation she had with her son to her social
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: media accounts where he confided in her about being bullied.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: He told her that kids at kindy told him he
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: was wearing girl socks and purple wasn't his favorite color.
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: Let's throw to some more of what Steph said.
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: What are you going to say from now if people
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: still say that to you?
• 6:06
  Speaker 5: Huh?
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: You forgot what we thought? You can be like, I.
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: Think they're cool.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: Or you could be like, Why are they girl socks?
• 6:19
  Speaker 4: And just question. Let's see what they say. And if
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: they say, because they're purple and sparkly, you can be like, well,
• 6:25
  Speaker 4: I think they look cool. And then that's all you
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: have to say, bud. And you can just walk off
• 6:30
  Speaker 4: after that.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: I love Steph Clare-Smith, but it always cracks me up
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: when influencers catch these candid moments with their children. It's
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: almost like they're like, wait a sec, wait a sec.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: I need to put my phone up. Can you start again?
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: I mean, what was that you were saying about that
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: girl at school? It was like beautiful, the message that
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: she gave Harvey. But I was just, I don't know,
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: something about it just always makes me laugh. Also, because
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, we spoke about it in depth on Outspoken,
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: but there was a lot of interest when she suddenly
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: started concealing her son's identity and wanting to be private
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: about him.
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: But then she tells all of these like personal.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: Stories about his life. Yeah, I had mixed.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: Feelings when I saw it because... It did seem like
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: quite an invasion of privacy when he's telling his mum
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: something in the car that's quite upsetting to him. In
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: saying that, though, I did appreciate the message that she
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: shared and the fact that it has sparked this conversation.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: And the reel she shared notched up 186,000 views and
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: it divided opinions online. One person wrote, get the boys
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: some blue socks and stop trying to make him what
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: he's not for your own satisfaction. Now, Steph ended up
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: responding to the comment in another TikTok video saying she
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: wasn't pushing her own agenda. Let's take a listen to
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: some more of what she said.
• 7:40
  Speaker 6: I love that trying to encourage my five-year-old to wear
• 7:49
  Speaker 6: whatever he feels comfortable in and whatever he wants.
• 7:52
  Speaker 7: To wear and decide on his own favourite colour without
• 8:00
  Speaker 7: thinking too much about what other people think about it.
• 8:04
  Speaker 7: I love that that is, it's like me having some
• 8:08
  Speaker 7: other agenda, some selfish agenda that I'm pushing for myself.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: I loved what Steph said because as a mum of
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: a boy whose favourite colour is also purple, it pisses
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: me off that colours are being given genders.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: Colours are colours. Kids are allowed to like whatever color
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: they want.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: It shouldn't have any sort of connotation that this is
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: a girl's or a boy's color. I mean, Steph said
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: that her son naturally gravitates towards the sparkly areas of
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: the shop, which so happened to be the girl's section.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: She also said, despite offering countless costume options for his
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: birthday party, he chose to dress up as a unicorn princess.
• 8:45
  Speaker 8: She then said this, the same boy who is also
• 8:51
  Speaker 8: obsessed with monster trucks and motorbikes and Mario Kart, and
• 8:57
  Speaker 8: not that any of those things.
• 9:00
  Speaker 7: Are things that girls can't like or whatever.
• 9:03
  Speaker 6: I mean, I was obsessed with Mario Kart growing up.
• 9:06
  Speaker 9: What I'm getting at is the traditional gender things that
• 9:10
  Speaker 9: we push on boys versus girls or whatever. He does
• 9:14
  Speaker 9: it all.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: He loves it all.
• 9:17
  Speaker 9: I have a problem with is people thinking that they
• 9:22
  Speaker 9: need to fit in one sort of.
• 9:24
  Speaker 7: Bucket, particularly at this age. What is the fucking point?
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: What is the point?
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: I think this shows what a good mum Steph is,
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: that she's encouraging everything he likes. If I think back
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: to our childhood, I was a tomboy and I loved
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: all of the boys things. I loved playing footy. I
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: didn't really like cars, but I liked all of the
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: things that you would stereotypically say were boy things. But
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: then I got older and I also liked girls things.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: But growing up as a triplet, everyone likes to point
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: out what's different about the three of us. And everyone
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: used to harp on that you were the tomboy. That
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: was kind of your characteristic. But the thing is, as
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: you said, you grow up and your likes change. And
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: so what if your favorite color is still purple when
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: you're a 40 year old man? I remember as a kid,
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: not seeing things as boys things and girls things.
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: I just viewed things.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: As, Oh, I really liked that jumper from the boys section.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: And I'd be like, Oh, why don't they have any
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: cool jumpers here? Or I was like, I really want
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: to play football.
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: I will.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: I want to play.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: You know, it's, it's, you don't think of it as
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: being a particular gendered thing as a child.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: It shouldn't be.
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: Now, Michelle Battersby is another public figure who has been
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: trolled by her followers about her young son's favorite color.
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: The successful businesswoman's two-year-old son, Alfie's favorite color is pink.
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: So for his birthday, Michelle got him a pink scooter
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: and shared about it on her Instagram story. Now, Michelle
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: then received a shocking message from a follower, which she
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: shared with her audience. So she wrote, an absolute lunatic
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: who needs to look inwards, messaged me saying it was
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: child abuse to buy Alfie a pink scooter for his birthday.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: I forgot people like that exist. Anyway, I'll continue to
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: let my child gravitate towards whatever his heart desires.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: Secure men wear pink.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: Now, the worst part of the story is that that
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: follower who sent the message is a mother of two boys.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: Oh, I was expecting it to be a man for
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: some reason. I was like, oh, fucking dickhead, man. No,
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: it sadly was a woman.
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: And she said that she tried to have a conversation
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: with this woman, but she was just a lost cause.
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: She then went on to post a question. Is this
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: how misogyny begins? Let's take a listen.
• 11:24
  Speaker 5: Well, it stayed on my mind because I just feel
• 11:26
  Speaker 5: like if you're raising boys, it's literally my life's mission
• 11:30
  Speaker 5: to not raise misogynists and to raise sons who have
• 11:35
  Speaker 5: really healthy self-esteem. Like if you have good self-esteem and
• 11:39
  Speaker 5: you're secure, then I think you have a strong chance
• 11:42
  Speaker 5: of not being a misogynist, right? And it shouldn't really be,
• 11:48
  Speaker 5: you could just blow this off and be like, oh,
• 11:49
  Speaker 5: it's just a comment. It's just a color.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: Like it's not that deep. I do kind of wonder
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: if that's how.
• 11:55
  Speaker 5: It starts, like shaming little boys into not liking pink.
• 12:00
  Speaker 5: I just like that might be the beginning of it,
• 12:02
  Speaker 5: you know, so it kind of is that deep.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: I have to admit, I had a visceral reaction to
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: both Steph and Michelle's stories because as I mentioned, my
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: son's favourite colour is purple and the thought of him
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: being bullied over it makes me feel sick and I
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: love that his favorite color is purple and my husband
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: and I nurture it. If we ever see anything purple,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: we'll buy it for him. I mean, there's not a
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: lot of purple clothes in the boys department, but he's
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: got a purple drink bottle, purple Crocs, and I love it.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: And I want to point out, Justin.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: Bieber's favorite color is purple and he has always been
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: loud and proud about it.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: So what the hell is wrong with it?
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: Look, I don't think there's anything wrong with it at all.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: I think it just maybe shows an age problem here.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: I think there'd probably be a couple of grandparents that
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: might be like, no, don't give him that. But this
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: was a woman that had children the same age. This
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: is what worries me. This is a mum who is
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: probably our age who is telling her kids that are
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: then going to school with our kids that this is
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: an issue, that boys shouldn't like these colours. Who actually decided, though,
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: which colours were for which gender? Well, it's funny you
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: say that because if you do some research into colours,
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: pink was actually considered a boy's colour because in the
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: early 20th century because it was derived from red and
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: red was viewed as being like a strong, bold and
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: masculine color. And blue was actually assigned to girls because
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: it was meant to signify being delicate and dainty. What
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: I've noticed is It seems like a lot of work
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: has gone into the space of not giving girls boundaries
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: of what they're allowed to like. However, it hasn't extended
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: to little boys. It seems like girls are allowed to
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: like any colour, which is, of course, really good. But
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: then boys don't get that option. My son is so
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: young that he hasn't shown any preference in what his
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: favourite colour is. I have been trying to make his... Yeah,
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: we joked it was beige because he had a very
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: like beige, boring nursery. And our aesthetic in this house
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: is very beige. But I've been trying to push the
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: colour yellow on him because it's my favourite colour.
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: So I always dress him in yellow things.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: My only concern is if he does select one of
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: these colours that's named a girl's colour... is if I
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: dress him in those clothes, I never want him to
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: be bullied for it. And it's quite obvious that these
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: archaic views still exist in society and in schoolyards. So
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: you never want to send your child somewhere where you
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: know they're a target for it. Yeah, but like stopping
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: little boys from truly being themselves and expressing themselves is
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: going to lead to personal problems. And I think that
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: we're seeing that come to fruition with the Manosphere movement online.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: And I totally agree with Michelle Battersby. I do think
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: it is very deep. shaming little boys for not liking
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: pink and purple. It is teaching them from a very
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: young age that they need to shun the qualities in
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: themselves that are considered too feminine. I think it's terrible
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: that people are shaming children for wearing whatever color they like.
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: All I'm saying is that I think that some parents
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: are concerned about putting a target on their child's back.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: I understand that you want to protect your children, but
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: I think that that does the opposite because it ingrains
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: a belief in them that they are not allowed to
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: like this color, that there is something wrong with liking it.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, I came across this dad on TikTok whose
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: name is Doug Weaver and his son was getting bullied
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: at school because he likes pink. So instead of saying,
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: don't wear pink at school because you're going to get bullied,
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: he started wearing pink in his own personal life and
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: he became the example his son desperately needed. And I
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: loved it because he said, look, people are going to
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: view me as the problem. So if I go and
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: pick him up at school, people are going to be like, oh,
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: he's wearing pink because his dad wears pink. And he
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: said he wanted to show his son pink. how unaffected
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: he is to people's criticism. He said, they don't say
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: anything to me. If they're not brave enough to confront
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: the color pink, they're not going to confront me.
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: Look, I think I've got a bit of a hangover
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: from high school.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: I remember in our year eight, what is it when
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: you meet everyone for the first time? And there was
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: a boy in our class, everyone had to go around
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: and say what they liked. And he said, I really
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: like cats. And for some reason that was viewed as
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: being quite feminine. from day one until his last day
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: of year 12, he got referred to as cat boy.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: Like that is how fucked up children are. He's now
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: a male model.
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: I mean.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: You can't just go and pretend that you don't like
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: something for fear of being paid out.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: How is that going to change anything?
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: I'm just saying how fucked up kids are.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, but that example of that father is
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: so sweet and it reminds me of recently Harry has
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: taken a liking to my makeup brushes because he'll see
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: me doing my makeup and he goes around and he
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: pretends to put his own blush on and it's.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: The cutest thing ever.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: And Dale went out and bought Harry his own makeup
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: brushes as well as a brush because he loves to
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: brush his hair and copy me. And I just thought
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: that's where this change starts with the dads leading the way.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: And the whole thing is a lot of the time,
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: if you tell a child, don't do that, they're going
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: to want to do it even more.
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: So it works against some parents who are very against it.
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: Well, Doug Weaver, that dad on TikTok I was talking about,
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: he actually said, which really stuck with me. He said,
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: one minute they're getting bullied about what they wear. Later on,
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: it will be about who they are. It then teaches
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: them that if changing their clothes made the bullies go away,
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: when they were younger, then changing their personality will make
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: the bullies go away when they're older. And it really
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: made me reflect on, as I said, this manosphere thing
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: that's going on online and how deep this situation is. And,
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: you know, it may seem silly that you're getting upset
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: about someone's kid being paid out online for liking pink,
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: but it is that deep. And we should reflect on
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: the messages that we're giving our children at home. US
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: actor Jenny Mullen has come under fire for posting a
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: series of photos on Instagram showing her embracing her 12-year-old
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: son in bed. The incident has sparked debate about boy
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: mums and when.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: To let go. Now we need to talk about these photos.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so when I first heard about this story, I
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: was like, oh, sure, people are just taking this out
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: of context, but they are a bit strange. So in
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: the photos, Jenny is lying on top of her son
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: with his legs wrapped around her and she has her
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: hands around the back of his head. Now, his face
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: and hers are both concealed in this photo. But that's
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: because it almost looks like they're kissing.
• 18:00
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, they're not.
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: They're kind of forehead to forehead. Like it's just a
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: big embrace, isn't it?
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think part of the reason why she
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: did this was because she doesn't share her son's faces online.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: In saying that, she does share a lot of details
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: about them on her sub stack. Now, for those who
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: are unfamiliar with Jenny, she is an actor and comedian,
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: and she shares two children with American Pie star Jason Biggs.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: So That's why she tries to protect their identity, essentially. Now,
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: I think we need to dive into the caption, which
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: provides some more context around these photos. She wrote, your
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: eldest son will be the most toxic boyfriend you ever have. Now, again,
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: let's point out that she is a comedian. I think
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: she is trying to use a bit of humor here.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: I mean, I've seen this rhetoric online before from other
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: mums and before I had a son, I was like, oh,
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: that's a bit weird. But since having a son, I'm like, oh,
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: I can kind of get along with the joke. But
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: in this instance, it made me feel uncomfortable considering the photos,
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: like the fact that she was, they were lying all
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: over each other. The fact that you're saying your son
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: is a toxic boyfriend and then posting a photo of
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: him in a position that you.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: Would hug a boyfriend in.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: We are going to share these photos on the Mums
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: Group Instagram account and also in our private Facebook community,
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: so you can check them out there. There have been
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: a lot of opinions about these photos, mostly negative. They
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: have been labeled creepy, wildly inappropriate and disturbing, while some
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: mums have defended Jenny saying she wasn't doing anything wrong. Now,
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: these photos came off the back of an essay that
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: Jenny wrote about mums and sons and letting go. Obviously,
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: she is finding it tough to let go at the moment.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: And in the piece, she joked that she only wanted
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: her sons to marry women with dead mothers as it
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: was her only shot at staying relevant or seemingly useful.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: She also said that she now understands why her mother-in-law
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: may have looked at her in a certain way because
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: she was letting go of her baby image.
• 19:50
  Speaker 8: Boy.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: When I read this piece, I could hear the jokey
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: tone in it.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: I mean, she is a comedian and I think the
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: piece itself was really trying to discuss the loss that
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: boy mums go through when their sons grow up and
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: move out and you're no.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: Longer the number one woman in their life.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: And I recently heard Hayley Pearson, she's an Adelaide media identity,
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: talking about this the other day and about how she
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: was mourning her teenage son and how he no longer
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: needs her. And I think it's something that I'm really
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: scared to go through. And it's already something that I
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: worry about because, I mean, you do hear people saying
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: that your son will always love you. But I think
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: when they reach their teenage years, you're no longer that
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: confidant or that person that they go to anymore. They
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: start to become embarrassed to confide in you. I think
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: that's most teenagers. I think girls are like that too.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: But there is this very cliche thing of, I think
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: once girls hit about 25, that their mom suddenly becomes
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: their best friend. But you don't really see that with boys.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: I think sort of behind the scenes, privately, boys are
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: close to their moms. I mean, you hear about all
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: those mummies boys that get their.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: Laundry done by their mom and have their cooking done.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: But it's not like People talk about them spending time
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: together and, you know, enjoying that time together and talking
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: on the phone all the time. I remember Mia Friedman
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: writing a piece for Mama Mia a couple of years
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: ago about how her son growing up was like going
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: through the biggest breakup of your life. And Jenny touched
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: on this in her Substack piece. She said she's fully
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: aware she's living through the longest goodbye of her life.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: She then joked that she prays at least one of
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: her sons is gay. I mean, she's really playing on
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: a lot of gender stereotypes here, isn't she? I mean,
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: I really enjoyed Mia Friedman's piece, but I think Jenny's
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: is taking it to this whole new weird level where
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of sexual innuendo. I mean, she also
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: discussed in this article how she discovered her son was
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: texting a girl and she said the girl reminded her
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: of herself as a young girl. And she explained that
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: as a young girl, she used to give boys the
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: run around and play mind games. She wrote, I could
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: tell my brand of toxic. She was bossing him around
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: and using big words and he was utterly spun. I
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: complained to Jason that I wanted to intervene before he
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: got hurt and that she wasn't even hotter than me.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: But Jason insisted I let him make his own mistakes.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: And he's objectively right. But as a mother, you want
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: to shield and protect and fiercely defend the things you've
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: devoted your life to shaping. Now totally on the same
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: page when she spoke about wanting to protect your son,
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: but what the fuck is she going on about the
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: girl that her 12-year-old son is talking to isn't as
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: hot as her? Like why are you comparing your looks
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: to a 12-year-old girl and why does your son need
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: to date someone that is hot?
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: Apparently better looking or as good looking as you. Like,
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: what a weird thing to say.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: It's showing that she's obviously feeling in competition with this
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: girl and the only thing that she can actually beat
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: her with is apparently being more attractive than a 12-year-old.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: It's very Freudian and she may pass it off as
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: making jokes, but it's completely inappropriate.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, how horrified would her sons be reading some
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: of this? It's disgusting, really.
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: I mean, these kids have to grow up knowing that
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: their dad is Jim Higgins in American Pie and watch
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: a lot of embarrassing scenes of him having a wank
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: here and there.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: Like, isn't that enough that they've got to put up with?
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: But then there's mother is sharing these weird photos of
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: them on the internet.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: In saying that, I think that there is something weird
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: that goes on when you become a boy mum, because
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: as much as I don't want to say I could.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: Relate to some of these things that she was saying,
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: I kind of can.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: Not the weird, not the weird stuff, but more in
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: feeling this ownership over your child and, you know, you
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: look at your son and they love you at the
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: moment more than anything in the world. And I can
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: imagine how awful it will feel one day to suddenly
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: not be that important to them. And you know, this
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: girl that you don't know rocks up and suddenly he's
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: all about her, doesn't want to spend any time with you.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: I can see why people describe it as a breakup.
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, of course.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: But I think casting yourself as the other love interest, like,
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, ultimately I'd love my son to grow up
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: and you know, have a life with someone else that
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: he loves. Like I don't want him to stay home
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: with me for the rest of his life. Now let's
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: drop the bullshit here because my husband and I have
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: joked that you're going to be the worst out of
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: all of us when it comes to them dating.
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: Why?
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: Come on, you will be.
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: I don't think anyone will be good enough to your son.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: Look, I'll be judgmental, but I don't think I'll be like, Amish,
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: it was me that he was dating, like this woman.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: Like, it's weird.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: I think whoever comes and steals Jack's heart will have
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: a very difficult.
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: Time in doing so.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: Some big shoes to fill.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: Look, I heard Laura Henshaw talking about this on the
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: kick bump and she was saying that, you know, before
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: she had a son, she never really understood those crazy mother-in-laws.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: But when she was looking down at her baby, she thought.
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: No one's ever going to be good enough for you.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: Look, I do recall when I found out I was
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: having a son, I may have said, no one is
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: ever going to be good enough for you. But I
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: hope in, you know, 16 years time or however long
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: it is, that I have managed to let go a
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: little bit.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: Now, I do want to point out that... He'll be
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: dating at school.
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: You're saying when he's 18, I reckon he'll have a
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: girlfriend at school.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: He won't be allowed until he's 18. I'm just joking.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: Now, I do want to point out that Jenny has
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: responded to the backlash through her sub stack. So she wrote,
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: last week, the internet called me a child molester for
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: posting a photo of myself holding my son. Now, she
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: went on to give some context to the photos. It
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: turns out they were taken after her son returned home
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: from a weekend away. And she said, When he returned home,
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: it made her realize that he was growing up and
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: that he can survive without her. She also said while
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: some strangers saw scandal in the photos, she saw grief,
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: explaining that to her, the photo depicted a mom trying
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: to hold on to closeness and connection with her son
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: at a time in her life when everything else is changing.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: She went on to defend the caption, saying it was
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: simply a joke, which she'd been making for the last
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: 10 years in her stand-up comedy. She said, Parenthood has
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: demanded a level of commitment and self-sacrifice from me, that
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: in any other context would be considered pathological. I've never
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: accepted this kind of relationship under any circumstances. And yet
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: here I am jumping through fire, constantly striving for affection
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: and approval, waiting by the phone for a guy who
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: can't even drive.
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: Look, to me, that actually makes a lot of sense.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: And I've seen dads talking about this feeling towards their
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: sons growing up too. They said that it's turned them
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: into this desperate girlfriend where they're like, Are you having
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: a good time? Can you tell me that you love me? Like,
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: I think that's just what happens when children grow up.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: They play the biggest role in your life and suddenly
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: you're not as important anymore.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: Of course it's going to be difficult.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: It's just funny even considering it because at the stage
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: we're in of parenting, it's like you are your child's
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: absolute world. They want to do everything with you. And,
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: you know, there's moments where you're like, God, I'd love
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: to just go and do something by myself. But hearing
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: things like this, it makes you think, God, I've really
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: got to soak it in because they're only little for
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: so long. And once they hit 10 or 12, they're
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: not going to want to hang around with you. I
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: want to dive in more to the comment about her
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: hoping that her sons marry women with dead mothers because.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: As much as I don't want to say I can
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: see where she's coming from, I kind of get it
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: now that I'm a boy mum because you do realise
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: that sometimes it is the daughter's family who gets preferential treatment,
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: particularly around Christmas, which is something that deeply disturbs me.
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of TikToks where they're saying, I
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: need to make Christmas so magical that my son only
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: wants to come back to my house. Look, we try
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: and be fair at Christmas time. It's not like we
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: only see our side of the family all day. We
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: may have extra activities sometimes. But I think that's only
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: because we're a Christmas family. Like, I do think it
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: depends how much your family get into Christmas.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: Or do you think I'm being biased?
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's very specific Christmas related, but I don't
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: know if we're the norm because we're 37 and we
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: still like to go to our parents' house and open
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: up our presents in the stockings that our mum gave
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: us when we were just born.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: Like, is that weird? My husband thinks it is. I
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: don't think it's weird. I think it's charming.
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: I think it's lovely. And I hope that my son
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: does the same. Look, I think this whole.
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: son breakup thing comes at a very difficult time for
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: a lot of mums. They're usually going through menopause themselves
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: and the hormones are all over the place. It doesn't
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: work out nicely. And I can see why some boy
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: mums are struggling with it, as I'm sure I will.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: I mean, when Luke is a teenager, I'm probably going
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: to read through this sub stack and.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: Be like, I get it. I've got a solution.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: If you don't already have one, get a really needy
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: dog that gets excited when you get home.
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: I already have one of those. Well, I think that
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: is all we have time for today. Thank you so
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: much for joining us for this episode.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: If you have enjoyed it, could you please.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: Make sure you hit follow on the Mums group on
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: either Spotify or Apple Podcasts, wherever you listen to your
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: podcast from, and make sure.
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: You leave us a five-star review.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: I know you're all incredibly busy, but if there is
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: a nap time coming up or maybe your child is
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: asleep now, could you please make sure you leave us.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: A five-star review and rating? It would absolutely make my
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: day personally.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: This episode was recorded on the traditional land of the
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains.
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: We pay respect to elders past and present.