Latest / Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps / Premium: Is JK Rowling Transphobic?

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Premium: Is JK Rowling Transphobic? · Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

• 0:00
  G'day, this is an abridged version of the episode that you can hear in full by signing up
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  at uncomfortableconversations.substac.com slash subscribe. Enjoy the freebie.
• 0:11
  G'day, humans. Welcome to SafeSpace, the dangerous ideas and a special primo episode.
• 0:16
  Look, this is going to be an interesting one. I went out to the substackers and the social media
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  followers and I asked her, here's and ask me anything. We don't want to ask me anything. I
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  says to him, and you and all of your kindness and generosity sent back some fantastic questions.
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  So I thought, let's just cover a whole bunch of these questions, but here's the thing,
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  here's the thing, some of these questions. We're so exceptional that I looked at and I thought,
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  well, I'm just going to end up talking for 30 to 40 minutes, just about that one question.
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  So what do I do about that, huh? Got yourself in a little pickle now, don't you zeps?
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  I says to myself, and then I says to myself, well, hang on, we don't need to do just one,
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  ask me anything. We could do a number of them and several of them could just address one particular
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  question. And I could just share my thoughts about that. And then I look at the questions and I
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  look at them and I says to myself, I says zeps, stop talking to yourself like an old tiny man.
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  And I says, okay. And I says one of them is particularly hot button. I shouldn't touch that one.
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  And then I think, well, you know what happens whenever I think I shouldn't touch something.
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  My little hand just can't stop going out there and I kind of want to touch it.
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  Even if it's not in my interest to touch it, can you guess what this question might relate to?
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  There's only like a handful of things you're not allowed to talk about.
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  Someone asked me about JK, am I allowed to say the name or is her name Voldemort now?
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  Is she the person who can't be named? JK, you know who I'm talking about, right?
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  Okay. The one who can't be named. She, I had said on a podcast, I think it was with Courtney
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  Act, the fabulous drag queen who said in passing that JK Rowling, oh, sorry. She can't be named
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  is transphobic. And I sort of said, well, is she? I mean, I don't know. We say that she is.
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  I'm not sure. And then this week on the project, which is a nightly chat show in Australia,
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  they did a whole piece about JK Rowling being an anti trans bigot. And again, I was like,
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  are we all just accepting that now? Like, is that just the journalistic, journalistic consensus?
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  Because I'm not, like I'm not following her closely. I don't know the woman. It's clear that she
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  seems unusually interested in their subject, shall we say. But the only formal way in which she
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  said anything about this to my knowledge is when she wrote an essay about it. And that essay
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  is being was taken to be a just primacy evidence of her anti trans bigotry. So I want to go back to
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  that essay. And I want us to read that essay. Like, this is the worst book club that you've ever
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  been to. But also the most dangerous one, right? It's like, why would we go and choose the most
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  inflammatory and toxic text that is going to get Josh canceled and then literally read it on his
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  podcast? Well, because I can't stop touching hot frying pans. That's why, especially if the
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  frying pans are the most reasonable thing to use for the job. You know, I'm going to use the best
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  frying pan, even if it's going to burn my fucking hand off. So any who, I think I want to talk
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  about this also because it's it's world pride starting this week, next week whenever you hear this.
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  And Sydney is going to go absolutely crazy in bananas, putting on a massive fabulous show of like
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  three weeks. World pride is this rotating event. It happens every few years. Different cities have it.
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  It's the first time it's ever been on in the Southern hemisphere. Sydney is already home to the
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  world's largest gang lesbians festival, the Mardi Gras, which takes place every February. Now the
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  world pride is going to coincide with Mardi Gras, the pandemic's over. People in the Northern
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  hemisphere are thinking about traveling again. It's going to be a massive lollipollosa and needless
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  to say all of the imagery around world pride. And I work for the official broadcaster of the world
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  of world pride. The ABC is the official broadcaster. So ra ra ra. Yeah, yeah, yeah, rainbow, rainbow,
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  rainbow. All the official imagery needless to say is oiled up young hot guys with sequins and
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  further bars and so on. And certain members of the LGBTQIA plus community, that community where
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  all of us gather together and have scums and tea every Saturday. That community is some certain
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  members feel somewhat alienated by that particular portrayal of gayness. They find it limiting.
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  They feel like it's at this point, it's actually not liberating to tell young people who might be
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  confused about their sexuality that they get to choose between either being a straight masculine
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  acting person or they can be a massive bottom and just straddle an enormous inflatable penis
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  and drive down Oxford Street on it while wearing arseless chaps all lubed up with further
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  bars in their hair. Like is that is that binary helping in 2023? It probably it well, it definitely
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  helped I think in 1969. It probably helped in 1975 to be like we're here, we're queer, we're going
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  to shock you. But at some point it became more useful to say we're here, we're queer and we just want
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  to blend into the background and get along. We want all the same things you do. We want to not be
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  discriminated against at work. We want to be able to get the same access to housing without being
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  discriminated against by landlords or mortgage lenders. We want to be able to get married. We want
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  to be able to have families. We want to be able to visit our loved ones when they're dying in
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  hospital without having to pretend that we're just their friends. We want to have the same inheritance
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  rights. Like it was quite a pragmatic and prosaic and mundane human rights request that yielded
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  the greatest civil rights triumph probably in the history of the world, which is the change in attitudes
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  towards gay people in the past generation. Now how much does that have in common with the current
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  plight of trans people in the and let me just clarify. I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone here.
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  I'm not speaking on behalf of trans people, but I'm not even speaking on behalf of gay people.
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  And I'm certainly not speaking on behalf of the ABC or world pride. I'm speaking on behalf of Josh
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  Zeps is my damn show and I'll touch it make frying pans I want. So this idea of there being a
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  community, an LGBTQIA plus community. How much do I have in common with a trans woman of color
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  from a poor background? Do I have more in common with her than I do with a privileged straight
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  white male who has the same interests as me and grew up in the same neighborhood as me?
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  So am I in the straight white male community or no, my in a bunch of communities that are overlapping?
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  I mean, I understand that the LGBTQIA plus community is a constellation of different communities
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  that are all stitched together. No one's so naive as to argue that the experience is the same for
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  everybody in that quote unquote community. But I'm not even sure that there's a that mean,
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  what is the commonality? The commonality is simply that we've all been through some experience
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  of coming out, right? Well, pardon the French, but dudes who like fat chicks have been through
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  some experience of coming out in the sense that they have had to explain an unfashionable preference
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  to their friends on the fourth or fifth round. I mean, Asian girls who really who are really
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  into black dudes and only black dudes have had to have some kind of a reckoning with coming out.
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  I mean, the experience of dealing with internalized shame and trying to figure out how you
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  live as a member of someone who doesn't conform with the mainstream image of everybody that is being
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  idolized by wider culture is an experience that is shared by men who have male patent
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  baldness at an early age. Are they a member of a community? Is there a male patent baldness
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  community? Is there a people who sunburn eat too easily? Community? These are people who all share
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  some kind of a traumatizing experience in their formative years. I mean, to some extent,
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  they are a community. So I'm not poo-pooing the idea that there is some commonality that may be
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  relevant when we're talking about, you know, people who have what used to be regarded as deviant
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  sexualities or genders. I'm just saying that for people to be speaking on behalf of a group of
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  people so diverse is problematic when it serves to constrain and narrow the wider cultures
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  understanding of what that community is. Basically, trans women of color, I mean, I don't know what
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  it's like to be a trans woman of color. I don't want it's like to be an asexual. I've no idea what
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  it's like to be intersex. And yet, the sequined, oiled up images of world pride are supposed to
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  be a proxy for all of those experiences. They're the umbrella. They're like the avatar. They're the
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  icon, right? So someone in the ask me anything, and my list of ask me anything questions has asked
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  the question, do you still think JKR isn't a transphob? This is from JJJC on Twitter. Hey John,
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  whoever you are. Do you still think JKR isn't a transphob?
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  There is a group of human beings who exist and who have existed everywhere and always who feel inside
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  their deepest, deepest core of their being that they were born into the wrong sex and that they
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  actually are the other sex. We see expressions of this phenomenon in so many different societies
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  in so many different times and places that this is clearly a thing. It's not made up. It's a real
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  thing. Trans people exist. Transgenderism is real. People come out of the oven that seems to come
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  out of the womb just with an intrinsic sense that they're in the wrong sex body. It's a funny thing,
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  but it's true in just the same way that some people seem to come out of the womb or at least some,
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  you know, some experience shortly thereafter enables them to say once they reach puberty,
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  I am attracted to members of the same sex, heaps more than members of the opposite sex,
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  or I'm equally attracted to both. So what do we do about this fact of transgenderism? I mean,
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  if you are someone who from the age of two or three has been persistently insisting that you're
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  in the wrong body, then it seems perfectly obvious to me and I think to most people who are currently
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  being accused of being anti-trans, that of course that person needs to transition. That child
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  needs to socially and culturally transition and when it's safe to do so, if that insistent
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  persistent transgenderism is still exhibited, then you do everything that the medical
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  establishment can and that that child wants to do to have that child conform to the gender and the
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  sex that they're claiming they are. But what we're talking about these days is a much larger cohort
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  of people than that. What we're talking about these days is also a cohort of people where
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  disproportionately, for example, adolescent females who are on the autism spectrum are claiming
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  that they are not females and the status quo assumption is that you have the blood of trans
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  children on your hands if you so much as inquire about what else is going on in their lives or
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  in their mental health that may be contributing to that claim. We have in most countries in the
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  West now, although it's being pulled back on in the more progressive European countries like Nordic
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  and Scandinavian countries, but still in the majority of the UK and US and Australia, we have a
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  model of gender affirming care, which is supposed to take as a given any gender claims that
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  people shop to a doctor's office with or a gender clinic with. I have interviewed on my ABC show
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  the head of the psychiatrist's body in Australia who has some concerns about the inability
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  of therapists to probe into what else is going on in the lives of adolescents who claim to be
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  transgender and sometimes these are not people who are claiming to be the opposite sex they might
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  just be saying that they're gender non-binary or gender queer and I can completely appreciate
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  the sort of do-know-harm argument of saying, well, look, if you're 12 and you want to start
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  dressing and you're a female and you want to start dressing as a male and going by a male name,
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  I mean, go for it. Good on you. Until the point comes at which we're medically intervening,
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  then culturally speaking, screw around with gender all you want. I mean, I'm a big proponent
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  of screwing around with sexuality. I don't really believe in gayness as a thing. I think it's a
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  useful cultural construction that we've developed to serve good egalitarian ends and I think it's
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  sort of outlived its purpose and now, you know, gayness doesn't make a huge amount of sense biologically.
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  I mean, clearly there are people at one end of the spectrum who, who definitionally, ontologically,
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  it's convenient to call gay, but where else in biology do we see sort of on and off switches
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  like that? But we don't tend to see them and biology tends to work in grays and tends to work in
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  sliding scales. So, I think it's likely that sexuality is some kind of a sliding scale and it's
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  clear to me that gender is some kind of a sliding scale where there are very, very masculine men
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  and there are quite masculine women and then there are quite effeminate men and very effeminate
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  women and there is some overlap and it's not a perfect one-to-one ratio between biological sex
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  and gender self-expression, what you feel inside. But I think it's important for us to cleave off
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  psychologically in our brains and just like ontologically in our thinking about how we divide
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  things up in the world between transgender people who have had this persistent and insistent
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  sense of being in the wrong body and who are miserable and potentially even suicidal if they
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  don't find some expression of that in a motivation. And then various phenomena that may be associated
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  with a kind of a playful attitude towards gender, a screwing around with sort of gender cliches,
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  a rejection of stuffy gender binaries, people who feel like they're misfits. I mean, this is
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  me in many respects as well, not with regard to gender, but with regard to sexuality. And many
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  of my friends are gender non-binary people. I mean, some of them are actually trans trans
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  and then others are what I would call trans and quotation marks in the sense that what they're
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  really up to and that's not to demean their gender self-expression. But it's just to distinguish
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  between them and the people who have had this persistent, insistent kind of claim that they're
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  in the wrong bodies since a very early age. I'm talking about a cohort of people who are quite
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  unquote trans in the sense that they love fucking around with gender performativity, right? It's
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  an almost drag queen adjacent to desire to I'll have my hairy chest and I'll also wear a dress
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  or I'll be a biological female, but I'm going to wear men's suits and I'm going to do my hair like
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  a 1920s myelina deetric and I'm going to like smoke cigarettes with a cigarette holder or something
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  and I'm not going to go by a they-them pronoun or even a he-him pronoun because I like kind of
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  upsetting the apple cart and I like proving to old fatty dutties that things are more complicated
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  than their their smug self-satisfied norms would suggest. And when we're talking about that latter
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  group of people, I do think that you have to start asking yourself to what extent should the
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  formal institutions of the medical establishment intervene in instances that could be expressions
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  of that sort of playfulness, right? So again, the disproportionate, the overabundance of females
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  on the autism spectrum, especially lesbian females on the autism spectrum, lesbian females,
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  but there's the total I win totology of the week on that one, lesbians on the autism spectrum
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  being overrepresented in this is in UK studies in people in trans men adolescent trans men, right?
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  So here's a thought experiment for you, imagine being an awkward socially awkward
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  highly intelligent girl on the spectrum struggling to conform with conventional sexist ideas about
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  femininity that you've absorbed from wider culture and from your peers that say you're 10 years old
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  and you feel like an outcast and you're a bit teased at school and you're not one of the cool girls.
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  You also are starting to have crushes on other girls which just adds insult to injury because you
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  don't want to be a hairy-legged dyke, right? So you've got this internalized homophobia against
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  your own lesbian leanings, you've got this internalized sexism towards your inadequacy as a female
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  when you held up against the sexist standards of our patriarchal culture. And so you've got a
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  couple of choices here, don't you? You can either own all of that in all of its messy complexity
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  or you can flip a switch and announce that you're actually the coolest minority around right now.
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  That all of your awkwardness and your social inadequacies and your autism spectrum disorder
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  and your lesbianism are not fractured evidence of your brokenness as you had previously
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  interpreted them to be and as the bullies had claimed, probably not in so many words,
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  they don't tend to talk that way in the school yard, perhaps I'm a little bit
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  high for gluten for them, but you know what I mean? Rather, you are actually the coolest person
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  in school because you're a trans dude. I mean, does that explain every single 10-year-old girl who
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  has announced that she's a trans boy? No, but does it explain none of them? Because that's the
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  claim that most people want us to believe, that the explanation that I just gave explains none
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  of the cases, because that's what you'd have to believe to believe that we should never
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  interrogate what's going on in the lives of adolescents and ask about how else they're doing
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  because that would be gender non-affirming care. We would have the blood of trans children
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  on our hands. If we were to do so, we have to affirm the claim, the gender claim of all people
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  and put them on, get them into a system onto a conveyor belt, so to speak,
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  off which they will have to proactively jump if they don't want to end up on home on puberty
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  blockers, hormone blockers, and ultimately in surgery. If that binary doesn't bother you,
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  then either you're not being honest or you're not thinking straight. These are complicated issues.
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  So as we embark on the fabulousness of world pride,
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  I just want to carve out a space for us to be extremely and enthusiastically supportive of
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  everybody's vision of what will make their life as fulfilled as possible, whatever gender
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  expression or sexuality expression that entails, and also not so stupid and cowardly that we feel
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  like we have to speak inside tribal boxes and produce segments like the project did because we're
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  all so fucking enlightened, we're going to refuse to see what obvious common sense would tell us,
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  which is that there are different categories of experience in the trans community,
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  and to give them all the credence that we give to the quote-unquote true transgender experience,
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  the old-fashioned old school, fundamentally biological experience, to take that kernel of truth
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  that we have to be just and fair and compassionate to transgender people, and then explode that
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  kernel of truth and smear it all over the experiences of every single young person who in this
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  culture has been trained from a young age to think about gender as a spectrum and to disbelieve in
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  biological sex, and for all of those claims to then essentially be accorded the umbrella right
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  of the LGBTQIA plus movement, and to make this a human rights issue, such that to ask
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  questions about whether we should be teaching young people that there's no such thing as biological sex,
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  is the same as to defend gay conversion therapy or the illegality of gayness or to a reposed gay marriage.
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  Like, I just think we have to do better than that, we have to be more nuanced than that, not just,
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  I mean, for whom, for why? Why do we have to, for the people themselves who are going through
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  these experiences, it doesn't serve the 10-year-old girl to not give her the care that she needs,
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  and to simply trust her intuitions that she's absorbed from her peers and her culture on questions
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  this profound. I'll also just mention another elephant in the room in world pride, and in all
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  expressions of pride about this community, which is that there is a conflict between gayness and
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  transness that we don't talk about. There's an obvious conflict between lesbianism and the
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  trans community. Lesbians and feminists have fought for a very long time to create spaces for
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  themselves where they don't have to deal with dudes with dicks. Now, some people with dicks are
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  no longer dudes. Some people with dicks are in that class of people who I was talking about,
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  since the age of two, have felt like females and we should be compassionate towards them,
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  but the fact that we need to be compassionate towards them does not necessarily require us
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  to believe that every adult male with a dick who claims to be a female with a dick
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  should have the right to use women's only spaces like restrooms and bathrooms and changing
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  rims and whatever and prisons. But you don't have to be one of a crazy trans exclusionary radical
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  feminist who thinks that all trans women are rapists or something to nonetheless notice that there
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  have been cases of rape in women's prisons. This is especially well documented in the UK
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  where females with penises who were born biologically male who were in women's prisons have raped
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  other women. This is not so bad as to be an epidemic, I don't want to be hysterical about it,
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  I'm just using it as a way of noting that if you're a feminist that probably stinks,
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  right, you spend thousands of years fighting for equality and for safe spaces away from,
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  let's not even call them men because they're not men at this point, but away from the threat of
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  biological manhood to put it tactfully. I'm talking about dicks and you've tried to scramble away from that
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  and now you're being told that actually the cohort of people who you thought were women,
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  that's not true, there are also some people who are biologically male who are in that cohort as well.
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  I can understand the objection of certain feminists, feminists like Jermaine Greer,
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  who say there's something special about womanhood that is not quite expressed
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  through growing up as a boy. There's something unique about the experience of growing up as a girl
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  in a sexist society, that is fundamental to womanhood. If you grow up as a boy and you go
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  through puberty as a boy, you're not quite the same. You might still be a woman, a trans woman,
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  but you're not identical. There's also this question of whether or not the whole idea of being
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  attracted, of being gay, being attracted to members of the same sex makes any sense in a world in which
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  biological sex is non-existent and is just a spectrum. I mean, the whole point of being gay
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  is not that you are attracted to the male, let's talk about males here for a set for a moment,
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  it's not that you're attracted to the male gender, it's that you're attracted to the male sex,
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  by which I mean, it's not that you're attracted to anyone who proclaims to feel like they're
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  a male inside, even if they have boobs and a vagina, it's that you're attracted to the male
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  biology, like you are attracted to male faces, you're attracted to male chests, and you're attracted
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  to male genitals. If the claim on the trans side is that all of that is just window dressing
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  and that true gender is embedded somewhere inside you and true gender is actually just a declaration
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  that one makes, then much of the, and I don't even want to say the trans community because the
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  reality is that most of my trans friends roll their eyes at all of this ideological nonsense
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  as much as I do. So it's people who are generally speaking on behalf of the trans community
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  and journalists and activists and politicians who are too cowardly to stand up to this kind of
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  university educated, very white sort of woke vanguard of ideology. So one of the claims that
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  is made there not by the trans community but by this you know woke community is that it's somehow
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  transphobic if you don't want to sleep with a trans person who has the opposite pink bits
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  than you're attracted to. That a gay male who doesn't want to sleep with a trans man who has a
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  vagina is a transphob and that a lesbian who doesn't want to sleep with a woman with a penis
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  is a transphob. I mean maybe you're not making the battle very easy to win
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  if you're insisting on erasing essentially homosexuality as a category and what then happens
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  to LGBTQIA plus if the L and the G are basically illegitimate because of the T.
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  This is all tricky stuff and I do wish you know I'd like to be optimistic that at an occasion
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  like world pride we're going to have these sorts of conversations. There's a three-day event
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  to human rights conference which is going to be a big gab fest with lots of interesting people
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  having panel discussions and so on. Do you think that you will hear there in any of the three days
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  anything like what you've heard in the past 20 minutes here?
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  Do you think the stuff that will be said there will be more honest, more cutting,
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  more relevant than this drivel? Or is it likely to be people mowling the same things that they
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  know that you're supposed to say about how wonderful this community is and how much more we have
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  to do and how you know we're all brothers and sisters in this struggle against homophobia and
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  injustice and that BIPOC and people of color are you know central to this and we're celebrating
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  our diversity there'll be none of it which brings me to JK Rowling. The question was
• 29:02
  do I still think JKR isn't a transphobia? She spends way too much time on this issue.
• 29:14
  You will notice that I don't. I spend about as much time on this issue as I think it deserves
• 29:20
  in the broader context of how much is going on in the world which is it should probably occupy
• 29:27
  maybe like three to five percent of all of our consciousness because it's an important question
• 29:33
  for women's rights and for feminism and for trans rights and for queer rights and for the existence
• 29:39
  of the community. People who spend 90 percent of their output on this issue I just think there's
• 29:45
  something suspect about but what I think that is is Twitter brain. There is a derangement that comes
• 29:53
  from the algorithm that drives people to more and more unseemly bitter and extreme expressions of
• 30:01
  what were previously reasonable beliefs and I fear that JK Rowling has gone down that path. I
• 30:10
  don't I haven't looked closely at her Twitter feed but just because I still follow her for some
• 30:16
  reason from the past I occasionally see her tweets and my oh my there's nothing wrong with them
• 30:23
  and I think I've never seen anything that's highly objectionable but if you're that focused on
• 30:28
  this issue then yeah I think you've got your priorities out of whack so I think she's not doing
• 30:34
  us off any favors and