Latest / 360 with Katie Woolf / Katie Woolf spoke with NT Electoral Commissioner Iain Loganathan

Transcript

Katie Woolf spoke with NT Electoral Commissioner Iain Loganathan · 360 with Katie Woolf

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  Speaker 1: Three sixty with Katie Wolf on Mixed one oh four
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  Speaker 1: point nine thanks to Joyce Main Darwin.
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  Speaker 2: You are listening to Mix oneow four point nine three sixty.
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  Speaker 2: Now I'll tell you what we're catching up with this
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  Speaker 2: man just about every day before the Northern Territory election.
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  Speaker 2: The Northern Territory Electoral Commissioner in Logan Ethan joins me
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  Speaker 2: in the studio right now. Good morning to you.
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  Speaker 1: Good morning, Katie.
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  Speaker 2: I've let you off for a couple of months not
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  Speaker 2: make to come in every day like you were doing
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  Speaker 2: in the lead up to the election. It's always a
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  Speaker 2: busy time for you election time, and you've now released
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  Speaker 2: the report for the twenty twenty Legislative Assembly election twenty
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  Speaker 2: two Recommendations to modernize democracy in the Northern Territory. I
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  Speaker 2: know that there's there's some changes really that could potentially
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  Speaker 2: have had an impact at the last election, couldn't.
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  Speaker 3: They Look Yes, Katie, look what we had at the
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  Speaker 3: last election was you know, as I've said to you
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  Speaker 3: on many occasions, is that the seats in the territory
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  Speaker 3: is small, so we're always going to have have small margins,
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  Speaker 3: and it was ridiculously small at the last election. Just
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  Speaker 3: five for the division of Berkley and thirteen for the
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  Speaker 3: Division of Blaine. So once you go through the report
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  Speaker 3: and you look at some of the issues and you
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  Speaker 3: look at all the data, we certainly had issues with
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  Speaker 3: postal voting generally, like a lot of people didn't sign it,
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  Speaker 3: or they didn't date it right, or they didn't provide ID,
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  Speaker 3: so those votes weren't counted. And what we had at
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  Speaker 3: the prisons this year is usually we go on mobile
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  Speaker 3: polar prisons, but this year because of they had the
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  Speaker 3: riots there and then because of COVID and social distancing,
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  Speaker 3: Corrections came to us and said, or we met with
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  Speaker 3: Corrections and they said, look, you can't mobile poll because
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  Speaker 3: we can't really guarantee your safety. So we have to
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  Speaker 3: look at some alternative, and the only real alternative was
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  Speaker 3: postal voting, and we certainly worked with prisons, sorry, with Corrections,
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  Speaker 3: I should say, to provide that service both to make
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  Speaker 3: sure that in that were entitled to be on the
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  Speaker 3: roll were enrolled and also to make sure that they
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  Speaker 3: could vote. But as you know, postal voting is a
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  Speaker 3: lot more complicated than normal voting. You know, you need
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  Speaker 3: to sign the back of the envelope, you need to
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  Speaker 3: date it, you need to put a time, You need
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  Speaker 3: to provide some ID, which is usually a driver's license.
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  Speaker 3: And if you don't have a driver's license, which is
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  Speaker 3: the case with the majority of inmates, because they just
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  Speaker 3: even if they have a license, they're not walking around
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  Speaker 3: with ID, it means that you need you need to
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  Speaker 3: have someone to attest to your identity, right, so they
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  Speaker 3: need to sign it. And so with all these little things,
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  Speaker 3: things go wrong. So we had a number of instances
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  Speaker 3: where votes weren't signed, they weren't dated, and unfortunately those
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  Speaker 3: votes cannot be admitted.
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  Speaker 1: To the count.
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  Speaker 2: How many are we talking?
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  Speaker 3: Look, look, let me just say this is just not
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  Speaker 3: an issue in terms of like corrections. You know, we
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  Speaker 3: had at our own voting centers people making mistakes where
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  Speaker 3: they where they provided a provisional vote where it wasn't assigned,
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  Speaker 3: and you know, some of that sometimes it was from
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  Speaker 3: the voter, sometimes it was from our own staff. But
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  Speaker 3: in relation to the prisons we had and I'll say
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  Speaker 3: Darwin Prison because all the others were mobile polled, we
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  Speaker 3: had five hundred and six votes that were lodged. Two
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  Speaker 3: hundred and ninety eight of those were rejected and one
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  Speaker 3: hundred and eighty of the one hundred and eighty eight
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  Speaker 3: of those were what we've classed as avoidable rejections, where
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  Speaker 3: it's just because the signature's missing or dates missing. Wow,
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  Speaker 3: So yeah, they weren't admitted to the count.
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  Speaker 2: So so not only there was two hundred and ninety
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  Speaker 2: eight rejected and then an additional one hundred and eighty
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  Speaker 2: eight that weren't able.
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  Speaker 1: To be used.
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  Speaker 3: No, No, of the two hundred ninety eight one hundred
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  Speaker 3: and eighty eight avoidable rejections, it looked the balance one
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  Speaker 3: hundred and ten that could be like, let's say prisoners
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  Speaker 3: who cast a postal vote but then were released and
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  Speaker 3: went to to a voting center and just voted on
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  Speaker 3: the Saturday, and then obviously their postal vote doesn't get
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  Speaker 3: included in the count.
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  Speaker 2: But this could have had a real impact on the
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  Speaker 2: actual result of the election, couldn't.
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  Speaker 3: It look Well, you know, I'm here, you know, as
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  Speaker 3: you're saying the lead up to the election, saying every
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  Speaker 3: vote counts, and I'm saying it again, right, the margins
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  Speaker 3: are really small, and then you know, if you have
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  Speaker 3: these kind of issues arised, then they certainly can have
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  Speaker 3: an impact.
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  Speaker 2: So how do you stop something from this happening next
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  Speaker 2: time round.
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  Speaker 3: Look, we certainly we've met with prisons. I met with
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  Speaker 3: them a numerous times and they lead up to the election,
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  Speaker 3: and we've met with them post election to go through
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  Speaker 3: this data and the outcomes. And look, the answer is
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  Speaker 3: that we need to mobile poll the prisons, right, which
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  Speaker 3: is what we usually do. So we don't have these
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  Speaker 3: issues because we have our staff they're going to the
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  Speaker 3: prisons helping the prisoners that need to enroll make sure
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  Speaker 3: that they're correctly enrolled. And then we also have our
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  Speaker 3: staff going to a prison as though they were going
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  Speaker 3: to a remote can munity. We know that ninety five
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  Speaker 3: percent of the inmates are Aboriginal, and so it's certainly
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  Speaker 3: in a language could be an issue.
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  Speaker 1: So we've got.
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  Speaker 3: How to vote messages in different languages that we've got
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  Speaker 3: on tablets that we can show. And like I said,
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  Speaker 3: it's just a lot easier to cast a normal vote
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  Speaker 3: than it to cast a postal vote.
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  Speaker 2: But so really, so if your staff had it been
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  Speaker 2: able to do that in the way that they normally
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  Speaker 2: would have, realistically, this probably would have been avoidable.
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  Speaker 3: Look, there would be some mistakes, but certainly wouldn't be
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  Speaker 3: to the number that we have here. But look, let
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  Speaker 3: me say in corrections defense is that they've said to us,
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  Speaker 3: the only reason you can't go there is because we
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  Speaker 3: can't guarantee your safety in because of social distancing. You know,
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  Speaker 3: there was damage to the prison and so the usual
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  Speaker 3: venue that we would go to was not available to us.
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  Speaker 1: So look, it's just one of those things.
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  Speaker 3: You know, there's a lot of lessons to be learned
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  Speaker 3: from the whole election, and certainly, you know the lessons
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  Speaker 3: from prisons, which they've accept right in our report they said,
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  Speaker 3: you know, they certainly support us while pulling them in future.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I know, like you pointed out, you know,
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  Speaker 2: on the lead up to the election, you always say
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  Speaker 2: every vote count, So I know for you it must
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  Speaker 2: be disappointing then when you've got a situation where there's
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  Speaker 2: such a large volume of votes that you're not actually
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  Speaker 2: able to count.
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  Speaker 3: Look, look it is, Katie. But one of the really
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  Speaker 3: positive changes that we had was to allow on the
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  Speaker 3: day enrollment. So usually, you know, if you're not on
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  Speaker 3: an electoral role and you go to a voting center,
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  Speaker 3: you can't vote. But now we've had a change to
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  Speaker 3: the legislation to say, if you're not on the electoral role,
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  Speaker 3: but you're entitled to be on the electoral role, you
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  Speaker 3: can basically what's.
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  Speaker 1: Called a provisional vote yep.
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  Speaker 3: And again that vote gets into an envelope and you
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  Speaker 3: need to provide id in sign and do all those
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  Speaker 3: usual things. But with that measure we had an additional
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  Speaker 3: you know, I think we had seventeen hundred provisional votes
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  Speaker 3: added to the count. So that's certainly made They made
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  Speaker 3: a big difference.
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  Speaker 2: Now you've made some other pretty bold recommendations. One of
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  Speaker 2: them is public funding for election campaign expenses. Why do
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  Speaker 2: you reckon this would help?
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  Speaker 3: Look, I don't know whether it's bold, Katie, because every
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  Speaker 3: other jurisdiction in Australia has it, with exception of Tasmani
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  Speaker 3: and they just had an inquiry recommending that they that
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  Speaker 3: they adopted. Look, there's always I suppose questions asked, right,
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  Speaker 3: if you're giving donations to a party, why are you're
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  Speaker 3: giving donations? And you know, are you getting a special favor?
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  Speaker 1: Right?
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  Speaker 3: So elections cost money. This election costs three point seven
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  Speaker 3: million dollars for us to run it. We know from
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  Speaker 3: the major party's perspective that they would have probably spent
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  Speaker 3: close to a million dollars or possibly over a million dollars.
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  Speaker 3: So the money's got to come from somewhere, right, So
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  Speaker 3: we either accept the present regime where it predominantly comes
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  Speaker 3: from donors, or we look for an alternative, right, And
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  Speaker 3: the alternative that's used basically in the other jurisdiction in
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  Speaker 3: Australia is that you get some public funding. So it's
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  Speaker 3: based on how many preference votes that you get. You know,
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  Speaker 3: you will get x number of dollars for those votes,
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  Speaker 3: and that goes to cover a portion of the election costs.
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  Speaker 3: And if you bring something like this in, then you
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  Speaker 3: bring in a cap on donations so that you can
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  Speaker 3: you know, donations have got to be look, you know,
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  Speaker 3: whether it be five thousand or ten thousand or something
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  Speaker 3: like that, that's the maximum that any individual or entity
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  Speaker 3: can provide.
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  Speaker 2: Now, when you talk about that public funding, how much
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  Speaker 2: do you think would be a reasonable amount.
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  Speaker 3: Then look, if you say that just over one hundred
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  Speaker 3: thousand people vote in the in the territory and it costs,
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  Speaker 3: you know, in excess of a million dollars for a
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  Speaker 3: party to run an election, and then you'd also have
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  Speaker 3: obviously a number of independent candidates and you know they've
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  Speaker 3: got a cap of forty thousand dollars per seed.
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  Speaker 1: It certainly adds, right it.
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  Speaker 3: You know, this is a this is a really that's
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  Speaker 3: something that needs to be looked in terms of detail.
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  Speaker 3: I don't sit here and say the figure should be
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  Speaker 3: ten dollars a vote or twelve dollars a vote or
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  Speaker 3: eight dollars of vote, right you know, I think what
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  Speaker 3: you need is all the relevant stakeholders around and really
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  Speaker 3: look at basically look at this issue and work out
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  Speaker 3: what is a fair and equitable way between parties, independent
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  Speaker 3: candidates and you know, and the fact that the High
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  Speaker 3: Court still says that political parties and candidates can receive
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  Speaker 3: donations but you can but you know under a freedom
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  Speaker 3: of political expression, but limits can be placed.
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  Speaker 2: Right hey. One of the other things that I was
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  Speaker 2: keen to talk to you about, and I reckon that
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  Speaker 2: this is a really interesting one, is electorate allowance restrictions. Now,
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  Speaker 2: the Commissions recommended that the Renumeration Tribunal the determination number
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  Speaker 2: two of twenty twenty on Entitlements of sitting Members of
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  Speaker 2: the Legislative Assembly is amended to restrict ex vedure from
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  Speaker 2: electorate allowances to costs which are directly attributable to the
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  Speaker 2: administrative operations of the office. Now, I guess to put
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  Speaker 2: that in layman's terms, would that mean that realistically a
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  Speaker 2: politician who's a current sitting member is not able to
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  Speaker 2: use their elector allowance to try to help them to
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  Speaker 2: get re elected.
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  Speaker 3: Look, it's a carefully worded recommendation, Katie, let me say,
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  Speaker 3: worded it and reworded and reworded number of times. But
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  Speaker 3: it's still extremely long and complicated because it is a
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  Speaker 3: complicated issue. It is right, what we're looking here from
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  Speaker 3: the Electoral Commissions perspective is a level playing field. And
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  Speaker 3: we received like a number of complaints during the elections
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  Speaker 3: saying it's not fair. How can sitting members have access
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  Speaker 3: to funds that don't count towards the cap and we
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  Speaker 3: don't have access to those funds.
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  Speaker 2: So fair point.
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  Speaker 1: Look, Look, and certainly we think it is a fair point.
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  Speaker 3: That's what we've raised in the report, right, and we
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  Speaker 3: think that you know, those electric allowances are used for
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  Speaker 3: numerous things, right, you know, whether it meet to buy
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  Speaker 3: photocopy paper or whatever it is for the office. Right,
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  Speaker 3: So there has to be You know, it's not as
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  Speaker 3: though you can ban the use of those funds during
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  Speaker 3: a period. But we're just saying that you can't restrict
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  Speaker 3: it to like, you know, anything that's going to look
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  Speaker 3: like campaigning, because because.
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  Speaker 2: It's really hard, like even if you talk about a
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  Speaker 2: sausage sizzle provided by you know, a current sitting member,
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  Speaker 2: are they using it from their electoral allowance? And if
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  Speaker 2: you're running as an independent, you know, you don't have
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  Speaker 2: that same opportunity to do it.
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  Speaker 3: Look and look, like I said, it's certainly a level
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  Speaker 3: playing field. You know, there were lots of sausage sizzles,
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  Speaker 3: there were lots of pizza knights, there were lots of
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  Speaker 3: movie nights right in the lead up to election, and
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  Speaker 3: there's no problem with that, right. What we're saying is that,
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  Speaker 3: you know, that really needs to be funded from the
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  Speaker 3: parties or from it from the individual candidates, not from
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  Speaker 3: electrical allowances. We think, sorry electric allowances, We think that
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  Speaker 3: is a much fairer model.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree with you in anything else you'd like
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  Speaker 2: to make us aware of.
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  Speaker 3: Look, one of the other things that we are keen
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  Speaker 3: to pursue is to stop campaigning outside of all voting centers,
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  Speaker 3: including early voting and on an election day. Look, we
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  Speaker 3: certainly had a lot of issues at early voting, particularly
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  Speaker 3: in Darwin and in Alice Springs out the front of
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  Speaker 3: the cinema here and at the old A and Z
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  Speaker 3: building in Alice Springs, because they were the only two
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  Speaker 3: kinds of places where you could campaign, because the rest
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  Speaker 3: of them weren't shopping centers that they didn't allow it, right,
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  Speaker 3: So there number of instances of like inappropriate behavior. You know,
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  Speaker 3: it certainly wasn't a good look for democracy.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 3: Our campaign workers were, you know, really getting on each
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  Speaker 3: other's nerves. You know, it wasn't a I had the
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  Speaker 3: Council of Aging get on the phone, say you've got
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  Speaker 3: to do something about us, about this. The electors, you
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  Speaker 3: know that they feel very unsafe, right, it's quite a
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  Speaker 3: threatening environment. So you know, our proposal is that we
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  Speaker 3: just stop campaigning and what we'll have is we will
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  Speaker 3: have a table out the front with all the how
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  Speaker 3: to vote material. Electors can enter a harmonious environment, choose
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  Speaker 3: what had a vote material that they want and go
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  Speaker 3: and cast their vote in peace.
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  Speaker 2: No longer able to run the gauntlet at.
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  Speaker 1: All, No more gauntlet, right, Yes, right.
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  Speaker 2: If I think I'm the only person in town who enjoys.
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  Speaker 3: That, well, I think you certainly are in a very
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  Speaker 3: small minority, Katie, right, because yeah, it's not something that
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  Speaker 3: I think Territorians don't like stuff being shoved in their face.
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  Speaker 1: It's true.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, so yeah, Look, I think that this has been
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  Speaker 3: a long time coming, yea. You know, elections are robust
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  Speaker 3: in the territory. One thing that we've seen is a
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  Speaker 3: massive increase in early voting. So it's you know, I
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  Speaker 3: think it's time for the parties and for the candidates
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  Speaker 3: to look at alternative way to get their message to
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  Speaker 3: voters rather than relying to do it at.
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  Speaker 1: The at the voting centers.
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  Speaker 2: Just finally, and we know that the council elections are
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  Speaker 2: coming up. What day to day happening this year?
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  Speaker 3: So that's the last Saturday in August, which is the
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  Speaker 3: twenty seventh, don't hold me to that exact date. Look,
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  Speaker 3: so again, were my message to all territories is just
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  Speaker 3: make sure you're quickly enrolled. If you're not enrolled, you
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  Speaker 3: can go into our website NTC dot nt dot gov
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  Speaker 3: dot AU. The role closes at the end of July,
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  Speaker 3: so you know the first message is to make sure
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  Speaker 3: you're quickly enrolled. And obviously we'll be rolling out our
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  Speaker 3: information campaign and you know, encouraging more Territorians to participate.
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  Speaker 2: Well, we'll catch up with you well before then to
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  Speaker 2: encourage everybody to do that. You know that I am
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  Speaker 2: very strong on my beliefs that everybody needs to get
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  Speaker 2: out there and make sure that they vote. Ian Logan Ethan,
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  Speaker 2: the Electoral Commissioner for the Northern Territory. Always good to
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  Speaker 2: catch up.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you, Katie